Crime, Faith, and Redemption in Harlem

What makes a person turn their life around from crime and addiction to becoming a beacon of hope in their community? Hear Pastor Jack's phenomenal journey from the gritty streets of Harlem to the pulpit, and eventually to candidacy for city council. His story is not just about redemption but about actively making a difference through initiatives like Another Chance, which helps ex-offenders find employment. Pastor Jack is also dedicated to nurturing community spirit by feeding those in need and organizing inclusive events that bring people of all backgrounds together.

Ever wondered about the true realities of the pimping lifestyle in Harlem? Pastor Jack shares raw and unfiltered accounts of his past, offering insights into the dangers and complexities of street life. This conversation doesn't just expose the harsh truths but also highlights the transformative power of mentorship and faith in diverting the younger generation from similar paths. From the cultural nuances of Harlem's different sides to the evolution of gangs, this discussion is as enlightening as it is gripping.

We also explore the evolving role of the black church in today's society with Reverend Faulkner. Reflect on the historical significance of the black church and grapple with its current challenges, from inclusivity issues to the impact of scandals. This episode is a call for unity among black churches and leaders, emphasizing the need for practical solutions to social injustices. As we wrap up, be inspired by Pastor Jack's humorous yet poignant personal story, leaving you with a sense of hope and a deeper understanding of community resilience.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

What's going on? Everybody? It's Ron Brown, lmt, the People's Fitness Professional, my co-host. He will be coming in right now. We just had a show, great show. We spoke about Cam. We spoke about Shakur Stevenson Mace. We spoke about Donald Trump and we spoke about I forgot who else we spoke about, but check out the last podcast. It was real dope. You know that was the team we're gonna have uh in person. You know so, when we, when we do in-person podcasts, everybody that you saw on the last podcast is what you're gonna see live in effect. Uh, so right now we're talking about the black church with pastor jack. Uh, thank you for uh us this evening. We really appreciate it, pastor Jack.

Speaker 1: 0:46

I met Pastor Jack through Musa Dramic in the Bronx when we were doing Project African Restoration and you know he introduced us to Pastor Jack and Pastor Jack. I really respect it because Pastor Jack. I really respect it because Pastor Jack represented the way I feel men are supposed to represent, and peace to God, peace awareness daily. I just want to let everybody know whoever's watching normally we have the Nation of Islam Brothers on here. We normally have the 5% nation on here. We normally have, you know, you know Islam, islamic based brothers on here. Today we're coming from more of a Christian's perspective and the reason why I wanted to make sure I did this is because, you know, we're covering African people in a diaspora. We're covering all religions, all creeds, all walks of life. You know, we're one people. We all just have different ways of thinking and ideologies and we want to make sure we cover everything going on within the family. So, anyway, thank you for coming out this evening, pastor Jack. We really appreciate it. Thank you for coming out this evening, pastor Jack. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 2:14

First off, I'm introducing you now and can you explain who you are and you know where you come from, your history etc. Hey, my name is Pastor Jack and I'm from Harlem. So my history is a background of crime, drugs, and then I got my life together. I ran for city council and I put in the run for mayor. I only raised $400,000, you know that ain't enough, but I believe the only way to effect change is to be a part of the change. You know how back in the day you have a bunch of guys standing around a garbage can and they had burnt stuff in there, right, and they could tell you everything going on in the paper but they did nothing about it. So my first business I had was Act One. I came from a place called Act One and then I put together business I had was uh, was uh, act one. I came from the highest place called act one and then I put together program called another chance by help men and women with criminal histories get gainful employment. So we got jobs. We opened up in four States and then COVID hit. So everything you know.

Speaker 2: 3:27

I believe that I believe like this, that I have because I give, I give because I have. Therefore, god will never let me go without, because he could trust me to give. So every other Sunday in my church we feed everybody, I don't care race, religions. If you Muslim, arab, if you, whatever, come on and we can sit down. And we do it for a reason that as a community, we break bread together. There was a lady sitting down, a senior citizen, and it was one of the young gang members. He sat down and ate. So what came out of that is she had just cast her check and a bunch of young guys was coming at her and he said leave her alone. That's community. We look out for each other. So the perspective that I come from if we all do a little bit, we get a lot done.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Yeah, that's great, All of us you know I do the most, but we all do a little bit. We get a lot done. Yeah, that's great. All of us, you know ain't. No, you know I do the most, but we all, you know I'm about to do a day of love up in Harlem and I'm going to have uh divine speakers. You know uh people that been there and done that came out of it. Yeah, you talk that have been there and done that came out of it and are here to talk about it. And I'm going to have comedians, live music singers. I'm going to have some other people from Harlem that have talent. I'm going to have some young rappers. We're going to have people that talk about what our senior citizens need and we're going to give out free food.

Speaker 1: 5:08

That's good. Now, before we go into it, I want to talk about your early life a little bit. I don't know if you want to go deeper.

Speaker 2: 5:19

I don't mind, because when I ran for city council I put it out there Okay, from crack to a political-based office.

Speaker 1: 5:32

Okay, so let's talk about your early life, right? So you grew up, you were born and raised in Harlem. How did that work?

Speaker 2: 5:38

out. I was born and raised in Harlem.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Born and raised in Harlem.

Speaker 2: 5:43

And I saw this dude man named Slim and Slim, he had seven girls right and they had dog collars and when he crossed his leg he snapped his finger and he said stay home. And they all crossed their legs and stayed right there. That hit me all up in here. You know, I wanted that so bad, but all I could get was what I deserved. And so I went that way. And then you know cocaine and champagne and all that, and at the end of it I wasn't arrested, I was rescued.

Speaker 1: 6:20

OK, so I don't want you to fast forward, speed it up, let's talk about it. So let's say OK, you, you, you grew up in Harlem, born and raised. Okay, now, I don't know if you want to put your age out there. Whatever people are, I don't mind. Okay Now. So you were born in what year?

Speaker 2: 6:38

I was born in 1958.

Speaker 1: 6:40

You were born 1958. Okay, so 1958, around that time Harlem was going through that whole era where it was going through like a Heron era.

Speaker 2: 6:51

Heron, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:52

Yeah, so Harlem was going through a Heron era? Yes, and then around the 70s, harlem went through a cocaine era. Yes, yeah, yeah, well I left home when I was 12.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Okay, my mother said what she meant, meant what she said, and then she Hit a lot and me being the only child, I was right there to get it. She was a church going woman and don't say God in front of her Because it was a whole message, but she was my mother and she was the best thing I ever had. Don't say God in front of her because it was a whole message, but she was my mother and she was the best thing I ever had. I took care of her, I washed her butt, I changed her diaper. Real people do real things yes, sir, yes sir.

Speaker 1: 7:37

So now going through this era. So you grew up through the Heron era, the cocaine era, and then around the eighties, that was the crack era. So around that, now around the crack era, um you, it was that when you got into the game, or I got in the game before that. So you got in the game in the cocaine era.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, straight leads no chasing hot pursuit cocaine era yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, straight laced. No chasing, hot pursuit of a prostitute whole money. No money for show money. Pretty Jack gonna get that pretty whole money.

Speaker 1: 8:14

Oh, so you came up as a pimp.

Speaker 2: 8:16

There we go, but you know I went to jail so that didn't work. Okay, I went to jail a couple of times, but you know, and me going to jail, the last bit. They gave me years, but I was the only one to ever get the merit program. So they used to tease me because I took notes in catholic churches and protestant church, right, but that they told me I was going home that Monday. That Sunday everybody was in church taking notes atheists, agnostics, muslims because people want to do what works. This is the last thing I tried, but the first thing that worked. It works for me.

Speaker 2: 8:57

I don't down nobody else. Maybe if I was brought up in Saudi Arabia, I would say Allah, you know, it's, it's your perception and it's also your choice. You choose to say who your god is. I don't care who your god is, I just thank god. You got a god. No matter what you call him, he's god. So no, I don't talk against other religions. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, you know. But I just do the best I can do with my right.

Speaker 1: 9:27

You know, that's it now. Okay, so now, now you came up pimping, right. So I just want to kind of take the audience through how you got to where you are now. So you came up pimping right. Now I'm realizing, see, I didn't know that when we first met I figured that you just dressed like that, because that's how men in Harlem dress. Coming up back in the days.

Speaker 3: 9:55

Oh hold on, Ron, you couldn't tell he was a pimp when you first met? When I first met Pastor Jack, I knew my man had a pimp.

Speaker 1: 10:02

No, no, no, no, no-transcript. My thing is like this Because, like, growing up around men in Harlem normally men in Harlem they're dressed tight To the none. You get what I'm saying. So I'm not really I'm looking at them like my dad you know what I'm saying Like my dad was always dressed. You know what I'm saying. So I'm not looking at it like okay, pimping, okay. So now we're there. So now, as a pimp in harlem, how was the pimp game in harlem? Because normally when people, when you talk about pimping, you're not really you're not really thinking too much about new york okay, I'm listening so how was the pimp game in harlem?

Speaker 1: 10:43

I mean, how was it it? Like you know, you had tracks, you had, you know holes and all of that.

Speaker 2: 10:50

No, whatever you put the hole down, that's where the track is. She hold down and you pimp up. There's many misconceptions of that lifestyle, a lot of people. They misconceive it because they don't know nothing about it. You know, yeah, Miss Anne, you get money from Miss Anne because you know white guys and guys that have more money. They feel more comfortable with Miss Anne. Okay, you know so mostly. You know, I went downtown. I might knock a girl uptown, but I'm taking the downtown because that's where the money at.

Speaker 3: 11:32

Right.

Speaker 2: 11:33

Back in the day 12th Avenue, lexington Avenue, 86th Street. You know, if you go with a lame you walk with a limp. But if you was with pretty jack you was with a real pimp. Again, I'm going to say it didn't work.

Speaker 2: 11:50

I went to jail so how long did you do that before you went to jail? I did that for quite a while. I did a bunch of dumb stuff. You know I did that for quite a while but it was all to my education. I did that for quite a while but it was all to my education. You know, even like me using drugs, I could help somebody else on drugs because I know, you know, I don't walk water but I know where the rocks at. I could tell them how to get out of it because I've been in it. It's hard to tell somebody how to get through something if you ain't never got through it.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Amen, you know you know you have no identification. I was at one church and the guy came looking for me and the executive pastor there said come on, we're going to get down on our knees, we're going to call on Jesus. So he kept saying Jesus, jesus, jesus, until she said the Holy Ghost had came. I don't know if it was Holy Ghost. I think it was Casper the Ghost, because he went and almost smoked himself to death. I told her like this somebody come looking for me, please let them see me, because that stuff you doing it don't work. It didn't work for your kids. All your kids was dope fiends. So if it didn't work for them, why your snot blowers? Why would you think somebody else ought to work Right?

Speaker 1: 13:16

Right.

Speaker 2: 13:16

Right, yeah, yeah. So her kids even said mommy, he right. But you learn a lot of times from what you suffer. A lot of people don't turn to church until they've been through hell. They don't call on God until you know you're going through bullpen therapy. You're going from bullpen to bullpen, but then you see tough Tony, Right before he go to go out there in front of the judge, he get a minute by itself to say oh God, if you get me out this one, I won't do it again.

Speaker 3: 13:51

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 13:52

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know you can talk that tough stuff, but nobody want to do a whole lot of time. No, no, I don't know. I'm not want to go to jail. Y'all was asking me how old I'm 65 years old, and I don't want to do that, no more. Yeah, we took a bunch of kids from my church and my man, his son, and we took them up to Ride Playland today. We just got back, so I'm still in the car. We just got back and so we went to the beach, then we went to the pool and then we went to the rides. So we had a good time, you know. And Noah, you know, like my man's son, he in jail and I pick him up and take him out. But I wish somebody would have did that for me. I don't do it because you know to say, I do it because that's the right thing to do.

Speaker 3: 14:57

Right now.

Speaker 1: 14:58

I want to, I want to, I want to go into, I want to keep, I want to keep it on the timeline. So, after you finish dealing with the pimp life, the pimp world, did you get into other illegal activities?

Speaker 2: 15:14

Oh yeah, I robbed a bank and sold drugs, but that wasn't my forte. I knew that wasn't my forte. I knew that wasn't my forte.

Speaker 1: 15:27

And where did you grow up? In Harlem, like where, specifically.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Around 120th Street 120th Street.

Speaker 1: 15:33

So down there on the east side or the west side, west side, oh, on the west side, all right. Would you say, west side and east side is completely different. The people no.

Speaker 2: 15:44

Of course you go one street to the next street, it's different, you know, like the young people of the day man, you know they got different gangs, you know, and then you got to understand the gangs come from reason. My friend Bam Bam and he was the warlord of the Black Spades. So before the Bloods came here they had to ask his permission Because back in those days it was like 5,000 deep. But now you know, they old, you know, but at that time you know he would go with me to Rikers Island and talk to young people. He would go with me and he was really good at it. He's really good at it, you know.

Speaker 2: 16:35

One young man said you know, I got caught with a gun. And you know he said I got caught with a bag of guns and I got a badge. Now I'm a peace officer. So we learn from what we went through. But the thing about it is what could we do to help those coming behind us? Right, exactly, I dress like I dress every day, not just dress to impress.

Speaker 2: 17:02

Yes, I do like that, but I lead by example. I don't tell young men to pull their pants up, I just know I ain't going to have my pants down. You know, and I'm addressing such a way that a man now my colors might get a little colorful sometime, you know. But uh, I can't be nobody else but me, right? I don't need nobody's permission. You know, I'm blessed. I don't care if you take some of my belongings and go to the cemetery and put them down there. I'm blessed, no matter what. I'm blessed by going out, by coming in, I'm just blessed. But you need to know you're blessed. But in being blessed, you have to do things to be blessed. Nah, nah, nah. God don't do for you what you can do for yourself. I don't need nobody wiping my butt. He gave me the potential to put my hand back there and wipe it myself. I won't let nobody else back there. You know what I'm saying. Not back there, no.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Right, we, we got a pause. We got a pause on that. Okay, he didn't even know what that is. No, ditty, no, ditty, no, ditty, hey so. Pastor Jack. So now, after after pimping, life of crime, crime, you get locked up, you come back out and then you get involved into the drugs. Was that the 80s, when you got?

Speaker 2: 18:39

involved. No, no, no, I got into drugs. Before I got into drugs, before you know, I had a club on 125th Street. It was called Tradewinds. I had a live sex show disc graphed out with Joy, down the block From where Frank James was, it would come to mind, because my spot was the freak spot, you know. But Dude came in and he gave me some crack and that was the beginning of the end. You know, wow, I still kept running and taking care of business, you know.

Speaker 2: 19:17

But I would do days of just sitting down and getting high and I learned see, this is how I came about it. I was praying and I asked God. I learned see, see, this is how I came about it. I was praying and I asked God. I said I don't want to get hurt. I don't want nobody in my family to get hurt. I don't want to go to jail.

Speaker 2: 19:39

The next day I went to jail. How do you tell a help out of help? He knew exactly what I needed. You understand what I'm saying. So I went to jail and I start to get a connection. I got a moment of clarity, I got time away from the drugs and all that, and once I got some time away I could start to think back on my own and get to get a connection with the God of my understanding. And get a connection with the God of my understanding and especially to understand what his purpose was for me, what he had for me. He didn't acclimate me to bust people in the head, snatch old lady pocketbooks. He didn't put a chimney in my head for me to smoke. He made me a person and I had to learn who that person was.

Speaker 2: 20:33

When you find out what you love, you'll never work a day in your life because you always do what you love. That's true. If you ever want to have anything, have what you want. You got to appreciate what you have. You know, if you're not, my mother used to tell me if you got a pool and only got one, drop in it, stick your foot in there and you'll knee deep. You know I have three sons and you know I did things wrong, but I didn't do everything wrong. Every day I was there to take them to school, no matter how much I was smoking. I stopped my kid's mother. She said the only reason why you ain't there with them kids is you locked up, you know. So I got one son's a biologic engineer and other sons they do HVAC, air conditioning, a home improvement, and they got their houses down south and they're doing pretty good. They're well adjusted, they've never been to jail and they got good credit.

Speaker 1: 21:43

You know, yeah, sure. So now to take it to and congratulations on that, so now to take it. And congratulations on that Now, so to take it from. You got into doing drugs in the 70s. You're saying right.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Okay Now, and you got into crack. Now I'm going to just ask questions. Maybe no one's thinking I'm going to just. You know me being a. I guess I'm a journalist now, right? So I want to ask how does it feel when you take that first hit, not to advocate for it or not to promote it, but just to give you know a feel of what does it feel like, but just to give you know a feel of what does it feel like.

Speaker 2: 22:27

It feel like the yeah, I remember I was sitting up over there, up over about 140-something street uptown, and I'm sitting there. I'm like why people go to work, go to church, when they can smoke crack. That first hit takes you out of this world. That's like even with heroin, boy, that stuff was so good it had me. Ooh, I'm going to tell you, I did it one time and then I went home and I looked in the mirror and I saw that dope fame grin and me being vain. That was the last time I ever did that. I didn't want to be looking like that. You know that was back then, when that heroin was something else. It wasn't a lot of that Oxycontin.

Speaker 1: 23:16

You know Fitnor, fitnor.

Speaker 2: 23:18

Fitnor Oxy, yeah, yeah, but they got a lot. They put a lot. They put Oxycontin in too, and you know people go into rehab and they be thinking they got heroin and all it is is some pills. You know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:36

That first hit of crack cocaine was like how did it feel? Did it feel like an orgasm?

Speaker 2: 23:43

Does it feel like it felt better than an orgasm. I mean, you had the bells my head was ringing. It's something else, man.

Speaker 2: 23:53

The greatest feeling I had is when I didn't need nothing to make me feel any better by myself. Ah, I like that. I like that. No, no See, I had to come to that realization. I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. You know going through that over and over and over again. But one question I thought we was talking about the black church. We're getting there, we're going to get there. Okay, I just wanted to say, you know we ain't saying nothing about the black church.

Speaker 1: 24:22

We're going to get there. We got some time. We got some time, we're going to get there. So what? So what I'm doing is I'm leading. I'm taking everybody on a journey. We'll pass the jack from the beginning all the way up into the black church, so before we get there. So now you get you, you got into you, then you went to you, you went to prison. That's what helped you stop drugs.

Speaker 2: 24:46

Right, yes, I wasn't arrested. I was rescued for myself. You were rescued for yourself If anybody else did what I did to me, I think.

Speaker 1: 24:54

I'd have murdered them.

Speaker 2: 24:56

But I did to myself. Nobody else did it to me, I did it.

Speaker 3: 25:01

You know, what's respectful about what he's saying Is the fact that he's honest enough to say what he's been through. He can reflect on that. Some people will hide behind the, you know, so-called religion and not admit their faults and talk about they save oh, wait, wait, I'm shaved and I still got faults.

Speaker 2: 25:17

I'm not your saint of the world that's not who I am. That's not who I am. That's not who I'm gonna tell you.

Speaker 3: 25:24

I am no, I'm not referring to you, but some people. Some people do.

Speaker 2: 25:27

Yeah, some people do that, but, to be real, it was only one. See, when you make bad choices, it don't make you a bad person, it just make you human, and that's what God made you. He made you human. He didn't make you perfect. So, yeah, you're going to fall short. Yeah, you are, are, because that's what you made up of. You're not made up of that spiritual menace that goes above and beyond right. You made of flesh and blood. Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, just human man. That's Indeed.

Speaker 2: 26:07

I don't go on to that. Oh yeah, I don't fart, I don't spit. It's not about morality, it's about spirituality. And in that instance, and what I'm saying is, you can do things that Paul said, that would I, which which I would not do, things that Paul said, that which I would not do, I find myself doing. That's the realness of it. I went into church one day and I went to preach and before I went to preach, I said is any hypocrites in here? Because they call us hypocrites, and don't you know? The biggest hypocrite said no, we're all hypocrites. All of us say one thing and do another. Come on, that's who we are.

Speaker 3: 26:49

No matter what religion.

Speaker 2: 26:50

No matter what religion, man, we're all human. Yes, sir, I respect and reverence the character of God and don't take me wrong, I'm not getting all religious. What I'm saying is I respect the character of God in you, in you, in you and in myself that all of us have good in us. You know, when you love somebody, you just can't love them for the good stuff, because we're neither all good, neither are we all bad. Right, right, all of that mixed up, you know. And some days, you know, don't mess with me on that day. You know.

Speaker 2: 27:34

You know how Jesus turned the other cheek, don't be. No, I throw hands. No, I'm not that guy, I'm not. But I try to do better than I did last time and that's all I can do. I'm never going to be perfect and I don't preach perfection, you know. No, that that's not it. We're not going to be there and that's why we have to take it. Forgive others. In the day of love up in Harlem I'm going to talk about, you know, yeah, this person shot your brother, but you go shoot him and you go to jail. That's smart to you. We have to learn how to forgive each other and live with each other. Yes, sir, Right.

Speaker 1: 28:22

So I want, I want to take you now. So you, you got out of jail. Now, how did? How did you get to become a pastor? What made you say you know what?

Speaker 2: 28:33

I was studying and studying and study. That's mostly what I did. I worked out a little bit, but I, you know I wasn't scared and I wasn't. Look at my muscles, Don't mess with my booty hole. That wasn't who I was. But what I'm saying is I was there and I wasn't praying and asking God to get me out. He just did that for me and I know who did it. And from there, you know, I never went back to use drugs, ever again. I got out. That's been about 20 years now.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Salute, that's beautiful 20 years, you know, and I went through people talking about me yeah, and I'm not this. Yeah, okay, I'm not, I'm not all that. But when people tell you, oh, you think you so much, that's because they don't think they so much, right, yeah, why are you pointing at me? Because you got four fingers pointing back at you. Yeah, but the thing about it is like I got out of jail and then I went to another church. To another church I'd have been to a couple of churches, man, because I didn't find the church that fed me what I needed to get. I went to. My wife said. She said they put you out of another church. So I guess the only way I can't get put out of is my church right, but I try not to do. I can't get put out of this. My church right, you know, but I try not to do things that I saw, other things people do that I didn't like.

Speaker 1: 30:15

Okay, now how so you? You studied in, you studied in prison, right?

Speaker 2: 30:20

And I came out and I went to school.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Okay, so how long were you in prison?

Speaker 2: 30:25

Six months six months.

Speaker 1: 30:28

So you were in prison for six months. You studied, you came out, you went to school. What school did you go to?

Speaker 2: 30:35

I don't even remember the school. It's down on 57th Street. Okay, this building.

Speaker 1: 30:43

And it's for you to become an ordained minister?

Speaker 2: 30:46

No it was for me just to study.

Speaker 1: 30:49

Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 30:50

No. And then I got up under another minister and they gave me a test and then they made me a reverend right. And then after that it came to the point that I'm like like I don't like everything they're preaching, because when you get saved, everything ain't going to go right. That's when the enemy is going to come after you the most. So you're lying to people. You know you're not.

Speaker 2: 31:23

If you want to change, first you got to change. You know, because you attract who you are the type of people come into your life. If you are an enabler, you will always attract a manipulator. Y'all go together like bacon and eggs. It's just a simple preference. So what comes to you comes from what comes from you. If you want something better, you got to become something better. The Bible says when a man finds a wife, he finds a good thing. You got a lot of women looking for A husband Instead of looking to become a good thing. Because you can't Get cream if you've been In and out messing with crumbs, because cream rises to the top. But if you want what's on the top, you got to be up on the top. You know 10. Know where the two is, just like a two know where the 10 is. A two be up at the top with a 10, like yo, what you doing up here? And he'll say to himself what am I doing up here? You understand what I'm saying, right, make sense.

Speaker 1: 32:28

Yes, sir.

Speaker 2: 32:29

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 32:30

All right Now. So now, after you became a reverend. Now, what was the? And then, how long ago was this when you became a reverend?

Speaker 2: 32:44

Before I became. About four or five years after I got out of jail. Okay, so you were around what? 50? I told you I'm 65. About four or five years after I got out of jail.

Speaker 1: 32:50

Okay, so you were around. What 50? I told you, I'm 65.

Speaker 2: 32:56

Okay, no what I'm saying is I don't look like what I've been through.

Speaker 1: 32:58

No, what I'm saying is when you got out of prison and you became a reverend for five years. So that was like what? 50 years old.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Yeah, something like that. I ain't adding nothing, but it's about 50.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Okay, years old, yeah, something. Yeah, I ain't adding nothing, but it's about okay, so, so, so, and then after that, then you, you know, you became a reverend of a church yes, I went through being up under other ministers.

Speaker 2: 33:22

Uh, reverend faulkner, he used to. He was, uh, he was on the jet and I was with uh, he was on the Jets and I was with Reverend Lee Ruson. He had two Super Bowl reads. He played on the Giants and that's where I was at, over on 135th Street.

Speaker 1: 33:50

That was the second, that was his church and I started my program there. So I had the basement and my program uh most of the rent.

Speaker 2: 33:53

Yeah, yeah, so you, that's from you bringing in members, not just members bringing in, uh, young people and people with criminal histories that wanted to work. So you know, we had an office in Jersey and we had another one in Philly, but I would go to Jersey on Fridays to get the check. So they wouldn't have to wait for their check, gotcha, they would come to church to get their check.

Speaker 1: 34:23

So now, as far as the black church right now, right now, that now, now that we were clear on the history, what's going on in the black church right now? Because, like, from what I understand, a lot of people are probably straying away from the church because of the history of, like you know, the're allowing homosexuals to be, uh, uh, pastors and and reverends, if you will well, I mean on the homosexual tip, ain't nothing gay about me?

Speaker 2: 35:00

but see, there's no good sin or bad sin. Sin is sin. So maybe you you're not a homo but you're something else. But we all messed up. So I don't think if you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones. If that's the way you're a person, hold on.

Speaker 1: 35:20

So you think it's okay for there to be homosexual pastors and reverends.

Speaker 2: 35:27

Yes, I do.

Speaker 1: 35:29

Well, isn't that against the doctrine? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 35:34

In the Bible it says like this that flesh after its own flesh is abomination. That means God didn't make it that way. But God didn't make a lot of things the way that it's become. That don't mean that he don't love them, because God is love. I don't mean he turned away and they're cursed people, because we all do wrong. And if God turned away from me a long time ago I wouldn't be where I'm at now. So I don't put other people down, because I think life puts you down enough. I don't care your race, religion, your ethnicity, your sexuality. That's your business. I have a scripture that I tell my people all the time, first Thessalonians 411. And it says study to be quiet, mind your own business and do the works of your own hand. A lot of Christians don't get that one, you know. Learn how to shut up right. Mind your business and take care of your own business, because if you're taking care of your own business you ain't got time for nobody else.

Speaker 1: 36:49

So that's where.

Speaker 2: 36:50

I'm at on that. I I don't put people down, that's not it. We all got a rough way. Life is not always easy but it's doable, gotcha okay.

Speaker 1: 37:04

So now, as far as the black church, in the direction it's going at the moment and, uh, you know, it's influence on the black community, so to speak, um, do you think that, from what I see, I see that the, the, the black church, doesn't have as much influence in, uh, as it had in the sixties, seventies, eighties and the nineties? I think that people are now more privy to information and people want to know what the facts are, and so I think that people are straying away from the church because things are more information based and they want actual facts to help them, you know, grow in their lives rather than you know parables and such so can I add to that, yeah, what it is also is what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 38:03

A lot of traumas have taken place in the churches, like you know. We've seen the media where they hide like no. Families are ostracized, do members are ostracized for not following the faith? Um, sexual predators within the church, um, you know the scandals and such, and some feel like the church within the black communities are not really reaching to the people to help them better their situations in regards to social injustices and social matters. You know, like you got the megachurches, all these other pastors that get jets and all that stuff and they leave their people out, you know, out in the cold. Well, you, know.

Speaker 2: 38:47

I mean like TB Jakes, they said he did this, he did that. I don't know. I hope he didn't. I just know I ain't going to do it. That's all I can keep it on me. I don't do stuff like that. No, that's what I mean Yo, I like women you might, yeah, yeah, Yep, that was him. But boys and I don't do that. I hope he didn't do it. I hope he did. But if he did, that's what he did. You know, I mean, none of us are perfect, like I keep saying.

Speaker 1: 39:26

you know, don't you don't of us? Don't you think that the black church has lost credibility with the people?

Speaker 2: 39:34

The Catholic church. They have told people things to get them to walk in a certain line, and people have come to understand that that ain't working. You run, jump, shout, run around, do 13 flips, but if you go home and you got a man that's beating you up, you just flipped and he gonna punch you in your mouth again. So really you've got to come up with a solution. See, I believe church is a place to believe, to belong, but especially to become. To become what God acted me for, not what some fruity, tooty looking person came up and said that's who I'm supposed to be. I've got to find that out for myself. Nobody can tell. They can help me get there, tell me some of my good qualities and my bad because, yeah, we got bad qualities too but you can't tell me who I am and what God has for me to do, because you don't have any God-like abilities.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Okay, okay, now. Okay, so the direction. How do you foresee what's going to happen, you know, with with the black church, Don't, would you? Would you agree that the black church was definitely more influential in the community in the past than they are right now?

Speaker 2: 41:04

Yes, yes, yes, I think. So I think we got some things that have happened that shouldn't have happened. Okay, you know, I was at church one time and the developers came in and they were telling the church you know we're going to do this. And then I heard the pastor say well, what am I going to get? Pastor say what am I going to get? So I stood up and said at least I would respect you if you'd have said how many jobs are you going to give my constituents and people in my community? But he said you know what am I going to get? Stuff like that, you know. That takes away from the credibility of the church.

Speaker 1: 41:50

Yes, sir.

Speaker 2: 41:52

I do believe that. You know I'm not. My baby will tell you. She say she ain't no gold digger but I ain't no broke. Yeah, you know that ain't how it go.

Speaker 2: 42:06

So a lot of times you know me with my church, a lot of times I give more than everybody else Because I'm the first partaker I think I ought to be, and when I have food I mean I'm the last one to eat Because I've seen them. Pastors they make a big plate for him and everybody else get this little bit of stuff. Kingdom pastors they make a big plate for him and everybody else get this little bit of stuff. I would rather that a guy came in that wasn't clean and he ate my plate. That's just where my heart is.

Speaker 2: 42:43

So you will have some people that heart isn't in it. They probably had parents that said he got a preacher head, he going to be a preacher, but is that what he wanted to be? Is that what he wanted to aspire to become? So I know when I got some turbulence when I told you my take on gay people turbulence when I told you my take on gay people I didn't get like a lot of happiness. We was on the same road and then all of a sudden, we hit a bump. That's just how I feel, and now I'm from Harlem, I'm man enough to stand up and say this is just how I feel. Right, exactly. You know God is love. He looks like you got children. You might have a bad child. I don't mean you don't love your bad child. You still love him, you know I believe in.

Speaker 1: 43:49

you know, when I raise my kids, I believe in discipline, because if you don't discipline them, they won't learn how to discipline themselves. Now I want to ask, now being that you agree that the black church has lost its influence because of things that people have done over the years, how do you think that the black church can go from where it is now to maybe stronger, a stronger voice in the community?

Speaker 2: 44:09

They got to get together to do things in the community. They got to like I go out. I go out to this club called Harlem Nights, so Harlem. They have live music, they have comedy and then sometimes, you know, they sing gospel and I feel the power of God because God is with me wherever I go and I go out around the people.

Speaker 2: 44:39

How can you influence somebody that you don't mess with? You know, I mean I had a pastor friend of mine call me and said you know you around too many women and thing, I think you've lost your direction and you know that's his perception. You know people don't have their perception and they got the right to it. Like, like me, I got the right to be wrong. But if you know me, I I'm not always right but I'm never wrong, you know. But people gonna see things the way they want to see things, you know. But if I don't be out amongst the people and like I got a lot of friends still like drug game and this and they can see where I came from and I'm not busting nobody in the head, I ain't doing this, I'm not selling drugs and I'm blessed, you know.

Speaker 1: 45:43

Yes, sir.

Speaker 2: 45:44

That's all I could do.

Speaker 1: 45:46

So you say the black church need. Now I noticed that the black church does. Do they do do community work, like they have like little block parties and stuff like that? Still, you know, do they still do like the food and all of that for?

Speaker 2: 46:05

the community.

Speaker 1: 46:07

So do you think they need to do more of that?

Speaker 2: 46:10

you know what I think. I think they needed more, but, but what I was saying is they need to become a part of the community. The black churches that are are big like they put a half a million every sunday in one of their bands and when it goes into one of their bands, people come from outside of our community and by about community. Harlem, you know Harlem, they're not coming, they're here. They're here and they used to have the guys that was in Mount Morris Park and they used to play the bongos. They complain, they on 125th Street. How do you come in our community and put us out of things we've done for years? But because we didn't stick together and because we have no camaraderie, it just happened.

Speaker 1: 47:05

Wait a minute. So the guys that were playing the bongos in Mount Morris Park, marcus Garvey Park they put them out of there. Yeah, they'd be on minute. So the guys that were playing the bongos in mount morris park, marcus garvey park yeah, they put them out of there yeah, they don't they be on 125th and 7th avenue so they can no longer play in that park no, because um brownstones over there don't want to hear.

Speaker 2: 47:27

oh Yo, hold up. Oh man, that blew my mind.

Speaker 1: 47:32

That blew my mind, Because yo, they were there for years, for years.

Speaker 2: 47:37

They're not there, no more. Go by there, you'll see them. They don't get together like they used to, but then they come to 125th Street down 7th Avenue, not like they used to. Wow, you know, like I was working on a job right for the board of election, white lady called me a nigger and then she said that I was threatening her and I was coming at her and she felt threatened. She ran and told them about me, right. Then they checked the camera. They saw she was lying. Then another lady that worked there right Said I heard her. She didn't just say nigga, she called him nigga, nigga, nigga. I got fired. But they called me back, they fired me and they let her keep working.

Speaker 2: 48:34

I made this thing. You know that. That you know. Martin luther king said. He said I have a dream. We got to keep continuing to take that dream on, not just jump up and run around when things happen like police brutality, because nobody brutalizes us more than we do ourselves. Yeah, you know, black lives matter. I wish they mattered to black people, because 50 young black men killed 50 young black men last week.

Speaker 3: 49:05

Talk about it.

Speaker 2: 49:06

What are we doing to ourselves? That's where it's at. Before I jump on you, let me get me right, and I know things that I've done in the community to bring and reverence havoc and bring around criminality. I try to do things now that are controversial. To that I think that I owe, I think I need to do some stuff to get things right. We put together what we call. I work with the Board of Education. I'm a vendor, so I put in to take and counsel, mentor and tutor young people and teach them how to edit choreographs and make short movies.

Speaker 3: 49:52

That's dope.

Speaker 1: 49:54

We got to come up with ways to save our people Now as far as the black church in Harlem do, the reverends come together and have meetings.

Speaker 2: 50:08

Not really, because everybody want to outdo everybody. Everybody want to say I'm this and I'm that, and then everybody want to talk. They don't just come together and talk.

Speaker 3: 50:20

They do with ego.

Speaker 2: 50:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, ego. Ego is not my ego.

Speaker 3: 50:25

They don't want to relinquish that power they have. They feel like it's a savior complex.

Speaker 2: 50:30

You know I got 90 thousand people, but what type of change have you inflicted? A bunch of people going along with bullcrap, you know. I mean you jumping around and running up and down, but nothing changed. When nothing changes, nothing changes. You know what are you doing to take and bring back Harlem to itself. You know, we and our black churches, we could have so much power if we learned how to come together.

Speaker 3: 51:12

That's a fact.

Speaker 2: 51:13

Buy our own schools and teach our kids. You know our heritage.

Speaker 3: 51:18

That's a fact.

Speaker 2: 51:19

Have our own hospitals, have our own banks.

Speaker 3: 51:23

Historically, black churches were the ground for revolution. They were all about community base and you know, right now I just see them as sell base and you know, right now I just see them as sellouts, like you know, for politicians. Come by, it's a photo opportunity. Yeah, because they know. You know, whatever pastor says, they will follow. You know they'll pander to them Long as they say hallelujah and all that. They'll be like okay, you got my vote.

Speaker 2: 51:45

Well, no, my church. You know I'm going to say another thing, but I'm a Republican. I'm a Frederick Douglass Republican. I hear Democrats talk about oh we for the poor people, but they sold out to the developers and they ain't put us out of Harlem. But we won't be able to afford to stay here Because once you put a building over there and the rent is $400,000, right, the equity goes up and that means the taxes go up for that area and when that goes up, the rent has to go up. This has been a plan that came forth before it even came to be and we wasn't in the plan Because, you know, development stepped on us and they don't care where we gotta go, but we gotta get up out of here.

Speaker 3: 52:45

I have a question why do Blacks not you to go? But we got to get up out of here. I have a question why do Black some like not you per se? But why do you think some Black churches have reservations about other religious groups that deal with Black people Like? Sometimes I don't see Black churches deal with the Nation of Islam where they go, deal with the 5% or the more, the more science.

Speaker 2: 53:07

I'm going to tell the more science and I'm just telling the truth, the five percent of sometime. I, I, you know, I've seen, we growed up around them and you know me and god was in prison together. I asked god. I said, could you get us out of here? If you got, you know, but what I'm I'm saying is muslims. I have muslim friends.

Speaker 2: 53:21

Muslims, come to my church. You, I have no problem with who you call God. I got no problem with that. Yeah, I've worked with some Muslim people that believe in community service. I'll work with you, but I ain't going to.

Speaker 2: 53:44

When they look like that, bull crap, you know what I mean, I'm out of here. When they look like that, I'm out of here. But I don't care about your race, your religion. Really, god, I want to see where your heart is at. You know, are you really? You know, yes, you could fall short, but do you really want to make a change Before I leave this earth? I want to make a change, that I leave and they said he left his mark. You know, I, I I'm going to tell you if I don't need another suit. No-transcript, I don't need another suit, but I'm going to buy some more. Anyway, I don't. I went in the store the other day. What I was looking for? A handkerchief, I think. I came out with two suits and I was going to get a maroon one and I got two of them already. I just didn't see where it was at because it got so much. But the thing is that I could afford to do that and you know what?

Speaker 1: 54:52

That was a great question that that brother Mikey had Right. So, like, how can now, let's say, how can the church bridge the gap between the church, the 5% nation, moors, muslims, how can we have like a common ground?

Speaker 2: 55:12

Well, if we don't talk to each other first, we got to talk to each other. Yeah, if we don't talk to each other, we can't get nothing together. That's the first thing we got to do. You know, yeah, I got some friends that are Muslims. That's the first thing we got to do. You know, yeah, I got some friends that Muslims. You know my buddy, mecca Audio. Oh, mecca Audio. Yeah, that's my man and he's come to my church and talked to some young people. It was one of my members that was going left and he came out and he got them right and he just told them straight up how it is. You know, and when you go and you're a gangster and you go to jail, at first you got a lot of people, but once you're gone, everybody else forget about you. Mm-hmm, you know, but that's one thing. We got to first talk to each other. So on Sundays I'm at 653 Lenox Avenue and if you doing something in the community, I don't care what religion you are we can have a conversation.

Speaker 1: 56:28

All right, there we go, Now that he put that on the table, brothers and sisters. So you know, I like that because this show is about unity. It's about bringing people together, regardless of what creed you know ideology you know, and you know, I call this show quiet as it's kept. I call this show the, the new underground railroad.

Speaker 3: 56:52

You know because because this is a show.

Speaker 1: 56:55

if you look at all the people that we had on the show, you'll look and you'll say, okay, I could maybe work with that. You could look for yourself and say, hey, maybe I could work with that. You could look for yourself and say, hey, maybe I could work with that brother, maybe I could work with that sister, maybe we could all work together. Maybe we could take this show and then have like an NYP show dinner where everyone could talk and have a conversation and exchange information.

Speaker 3: 57:19

That would be dope, yeah. The reason being because we all in this together, believe it or not. If you strip away the religious books, the context, theology, you see that we all have the same concerns how our family would be to fit all in this life together.

Speaker 2: 57:43

You know the event I'm giving. I'm having a police department there. I'm trying to see if I could get a fire truck for the kids to come and climb up and down. And you know, on the fire truck. And you're doing tangibles.

Speaker 3: 57:55

Huh, you're giving to the people the tangibles, you're not just giving them work. That's the thing I love about him. Yeah, nothing from the pulpit, none of that hollering and hoolering and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 58:05

He's trying to do active stuff like he's actually working.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Well, yeah, then I'm going to have some fashion models. I'm going to see if they're going to do a swimsuit contest Real fashion models and they can sign up. People in our community can sign up to be a part of this fashion company. The young lady came through my church. I got her a job and then she said she wanted to take and get into the fashion industry. So I said you know? She said I don't want to mess up, pastor Jack, because you put your. I'm like, if that's what you want to do, follow your dream. And she followed it. Now she's got a place downtown and they're getting ready to all go on a cruise to the Bahamas the whole staff, everybody Nice. But she's came up, her and her husband, so they'll have representatives there because they're going to be on their trip. But she's going to have people there and we're going to have some people from Harlem that my man, tyrone, he could blow. He's going to come sing and knock it out the park. We got some other people coming, you know, and we got some comedians. Well, got some other people coming, you know, and we got some comedians. Well, my man Kenny Wu, he's funny. But I got some other people coming Gene Jeter and some others, and see, it's kind of hard to get to people if you're not on their level.

Speaker 2: 59:42

I'm not just going to have gospel music. I'm going to have some, but it's going to be more eclectic Every once in a while. I like listening to rhythm and blues. I like Smokey Robinson, I even like Cardi B. Let me tell the truth, uh-oh, I like Cardi B. Cardi B, yes, I doiB. Yes, I do, I do.

Speaker 2: 1:00:08

And music, that's a language of love and I think if we sit together, eat together, we can enjoy ourselves together. You know, even when I was in the penitentiary inmates, we was locked up, but CEOs was locked up with us. They couldn't leave in this life, in this community. We all in this together, and only when we come together can we get it together. You know, yeah, we can. If we just first you, let's have a conversation. Now, if you got a bunch of bull crap with you, our conversation might not go too far, might not? You know how you see some people. They just trying to, they money, hungry, and that's all they're doing. I think it should be more than that. Yeah, you know For sure, that's what I think you know. But the one thing I know I don't know everything. That's the one thing I know.

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

That's a fact. That's a fact. That's for all of us. That's a fact. That's a fact. That's a fact. That's for all. That's for all of us. That's a fact. That's a fact. So, pastor jack, we're gonna um close the show now. All right, that was, that was thorough. We would love to have you back up again. Uh, we always have a moorish brother on on wednesdays. We always have, uh, we had the nation of islam here a couple, a couple weeks ago, five percenters, and we would like for you to come on again to represent the quote-unquote Black church. Yeah, I got a story for.

Speaker 3: 1:01:52

Pastor Jack.

Speaker 2: 1:01:53

Thank you so much for thinking about me. God bless you all right.

Speaker 3: 1:01:55

I have a story for you, pastor Jack, when we first met. You're going to laugh and I'll say that we need artillery in the Bronx. He's like I'm out of here. He's like I'm out of here. He's like you're talking about pistols.

Speaker 2: 1:02:08

You remember that I'm not in the business of going back to jail.

Speaker 3: 1:02:12

I've been there done that enough.

Speaker 2: 1:02:18

I was with a bunch of priests and stuff and they were sitting down, something we was doing, we were demonstrating, and then the police said if you don't move we're taking you all to jail. I said I'm going to see y'all later because they're going to let y'all out. My record said I'm not leaving. I'm leaving now so I don't have to be in there talking about I ain't leaving, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:02:42

Nah brother, appreciate you man.

Speaker 2: 1:02:45

Well, god bless, have his power upon you, is my prayer. Alright, peace. Alright, God bless.

Speaker 3: 1:02:52

Peace.