Br. Wes Regan, Freemasonry and Conspiracy Theories

Bro. Wes Regan joins me to talk a little about our involvement in organizing Grand Masonic Day 2024, which is scheduled for May 25. Br. Chris Hodapp has been formally announced as keynote speaker this year. Wes will also be speaking, presenting some of his research about attacks on Freemasonic buildings. 

We talk a little about his interest in why conspiracy theories are so influential in modern society and how we both came to The Craft from this common interest. 

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Br. Chris Hodapp personal blog: https://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/

Br. Wes Regan has been an active Freemason since 2008. He is a paster Master of Mount Hermon Lodge No. 7 where he was initiated, passed, and raised and is also a past Master of University Lodge No 91 (Now Acacia No. 22) and the Vancouver Lodge of Education & Research. Wes’ masonic research and thoughts have been published in leading Masonic journals and magazines including the Journal of the Masonic Society, Philalethes: The Journal of Masonic Research & Letters, California Freemason Magazine, and The Lamp. He was also the Editor in Chief of the Grand Lodge of BC & Yukon’s 150th Anniversary Magazine. Wes served as Junior Grand Deacon for the Grand Lodge of BC & Yukon in 2014-2015 and District Deputy Grand Master in 2018-2019. He is also an active member of Valley of Vancouver Scottish Rite and Joppa Chapter No 31 Royal Arch as well as other appendant/concordant bodies. Professionally, Bro. Regan has worked in planning and public health for nearly fifteen years and in multiple levels of government. He holds a BA in Geography and Master’s of Urban Studies from Simon Fraser University and is currently completing his PhD in Planning at the University of British Columbia where he received the 2023 Public Scholar Initiative Award and Bombardier Fellowship for Sustainable Transportation. His dissertation research focuses on the impacts of digital misinformation and populist anti-governmental conspiracy beliefs on public policy discourse and the relationship between publics and governments in planning processes. In his free time Wes enjoys boxing, archery, cycling

Transcript

📍    Welcome to MysticTie,  a podcast for Freemasons.  I am your host, Troy Spru.  You can find us online at mystictie. com. That's M Y S T I C T Y E. com.  You could email the show at Troy at mystic tie. com head on over to our website and it'll direct you  today. We are joined  by our favorite guest and friend of the show.

Wes Regan. How are you doing today? Wes?  It's an honor to be your favorite guest. I'll say that to start. Yes, this is the second episode and you're a recurring guest already. Dare I say co co host.  I'll be your Andy Richter, I think I've said in the past. Yes, you've had, you have said in fact that you would be my Andy Richter.

It's good to be here. It, it's a, it's a joy to have you, uh, we're here to talk a little bit about an event that is very near and dear to the both of us, and that's Grand Masonic Day, Grand Masonic Day 2024. Wes, when is that happening this year? May 25th, this is our 40th Second annual. I think nobody's gonna fact check you. 

42nd or 43rd. This is, this is our 96th annual event. Yes. Uh, it has a storied history. Uh, I mean, it began really formally in the early eighties. 81 I think was the first one. Uh, but then it became formalized and the Lodge of Education and research took it over in 84, I think. But we're in the, we're in the forties somewhere.

Yeah. And we're really excited this, this year because our keynote speaker is. Man, the myth, the legend brother, Chris Hoda, uh, and, uh, you know, many brethren, I think read his Freemasonry for dummies possibly as their introduction to the craft. And I know that some, some brethren, some lodges actually do recommend that as a first read for, for people, but he has, he's done a lot of other stuff since then, uh, has become an accomplished researcher.

Uh, but with Scottish right and, and, uh, active with the journal of the Masonic society and, and, uh, has written other books and appeared on a lot of documentaries. So, and he's got one of the longest running, if not the longest running blog on the internet regarding Freemasonry. And it's a great place to go.

If you hear about, Oh, any jurisdictional politics or any controversial item in the craft, you can head on over to brother hold apps, uh, blog posts and guaranteed at some point he'll tackle it. Prolific. Uh, yeah. Historians will, will look back a hundred years from now, uh, and, and, uh, I think his blog will be a, uh, a go to resource for them.

Is he going to be like a Mackie type character  in the, in the distant future? That's how we're going to promote the Grammy Sonic Day. Now come see the new, the new generation of Mackie. There you go.  Uh, freemasonry for dummies, but it's freemasonry only for dummies.  That's a good question to ask brother Hoda.

Brother is freemasonry only for dummies. I, I, I, that's tugging cheek, but, um, I hope to have a brother Hoda on the show at some point. To discuss, uh, what he's going to be talking about at Grand Masonic Day. Um, Grand Masonic Day is May 25th in the afternoon this year. We're going to start later about three o'clock in the afternoon and, um, offer a light meal around dinner time.

And then of course, have a keynote and some other presentation and some breakouts. Uh, it'll be happening in this very building. You and I are sitting in a 508 Agnes Street in New Westminster, British Columbia, uh, in the, In the extra lodge room, kind of the bonus lodge room where the acoustics are, are wonderful.

I hope, uh, our listeners can attest to how good this podcast is sounding.  Uh, do we have anybody else lined up to speak for Grammy sonic day yet? Wes? Uh, well, I'll also be giving a talk. Uh, it's. It's on a paper of mine that is coming out in the, um, in Philolaithes. Um, so, uh, I've been told by the journal that it will be out by May, I believe.

So hopefully right around the time that, uh, Grand Masonic Day is happening, that, uh, that, um, volume of Philolaithes will be out. Uh, and so I, I actually, um, surveyed 26 grand lodges in the U. S. and Canada about attacks on Masonic buildings.  Uh, including everything from graffiti and defacement to, um, Burning down those buildings?

Yes. Arson and theft, vandalism, uh, hostage taking. Wow. Lots of different things that happened. And that was just in 20 20 and 2021. So we have a good snapshot of, uh, what at least 26 grand secretaries or, or whoever they appointed to, to respond. Um, you know, what, what they think in terms of, you know, whether it's increasing or not, or how concerned, you know, Grand Lodge is about, uh, attacks on buildings.

the ways in which they've been responding. So security measures, those sorts of things. Uh, yeah. So it's, you know, uh, it's the start of maybe further research. I hope it's, uh, I set out to try and answer whether, Or not attacks on buildings were increasing  and without,  without a way of really establishing a baseline set of data, it was just, um, impossible to really determine whether or not it had been increasing.

So the, the next best thing was to ask those who would be knowledgeable of, you know, local affairs regarding buildings, um, there, um, about how many attacks they knew of. I looked at local media, you know, regarding attacks and in the jurisdictions, uh, I asked them if they had a record of attacks and how far back that record might've gone.

And most grand lodges did not. Uh, but those that did, you know, started taking, started, um, a running tally, uh, that only goes back about 10 years for most of them. Right.  What interested you originally in, in, In pursuing this, was there a,  was there a triggering event? Yeah, it, it was, uh, the attacks in, in North Vancouver and Vancouver that happened in, uh, 2020, wasn't it?

2021, I believe. April, 2021.  And, uh, yeah, so we lost two buildings on the North Shore to, uh, an arsonist and, uh.  One was also attacked in Vancouver, but he was apprehended shortly after that attempt and that building was, uh, relatively unscathed. And, uh, we were able to retain that one, but, uh, it left a big gaping hole in, in the craft.

Uh, and it was certainly a wake up call and it was, it was, that was a frightening day. You know, there was a lot of chatter, a lot of us on Facebook and texting and being like, what is going on, you know, thinking about the other buildings. Of course, I'm a director at the Vancouver Masonic center. So, you know, we were going through a redevelopment process and wondering, is that building, you know, uh, you know, going to be threatened as well.

Um, so that really was the triggering event. I'm like, you know what, I don't know if this is a well researched Masonic topic. And we, we tend to with Masonic education and research, we, we tend to look back at history a lot and just try and, you know,  the minutia of, of, you know, some interesting figure or, or, you know, some history of a lodge or whatever. 

But, uh, I I've always been really. Um, fond for years now of the late, uh, Thomas Jackson's work on Freemasonry because he, he did have a attention to history and, uh, you know, he definitely, um, you know,  knew a lot of the historical particulars of Freemasonry, uh, not just in North America, but elsewhere around the world.

But what I loved about his more recent work, which is compiled into a great book called, uh, Freemasonry.  Oh boy, it's like Freemasonry facts and fiction or something like that. Um, and, uh, it's a, it's a compilation of his papers over the years, North American Freemasonry. I want to say facts and fictions, but it's by Plumstone is the, uh, um, Michael Pohl actually is one of the editors of that, I believe.

And he Freemasonry in the context of. Of meaning today, like what is the purpose of the craft today? Why is Freemasonry different or what makes it different in Europe or South America than North America? And what role does it play in society? What relevance does it have to, to men, you know, in North America, you know, today, uh, and of course he often, I think would be quite critical of North American Freemasonry for, um,  the changes that it went through, particularly after World War II.

And so I think he took a real sociological lens to Freemasonry and looking at  generational differences, uh, geographical differences, you know, and cultural differences across, uh, particularly continents and countries. But I, I find that sort of research today still,  I think there's still space for that. In the craft.

Cause a lot of guys are focusing on history, which is great, but I'm really trying to, uh, my research is really trying to focus on things that are happening today. Um, even with, I'm putting together a paper that I'm going to submit to, um, Quattro Coronati  is of course, right? We're still brother. Trevor McKeown is going to be.

Installed as master of, of, of, uh, the Q of QC lodge. Yeah. This November, which is, we're really proud. I mean, it's just incredible. Um, so I do want to try and get something in for his year. And, and I've been, um, conducting research right now  that is asking. Past masters who were  presiding in the Granite East during the pandemic, um, to reflect on what they've learned about Freemasonry through that crisis.

And, uh, so I've got, uh, an exercise that I've asked all of them to do, the ones who are participating. And then I'm going to, uh, Follow up and ask them questions that probe deeper. And that's only about, you know, four years, five years now that we're looking back. I mean, it's becoming history history when it was happening, obviously, but, but, um, QC in particular, I think prefers the historical, you know, uh, type of, of research.

So I'm trying to, you know, it's recent history, but nonetheless, um, the thing I'm looking for with them is if you had to leave a letter on the desk for a grandmaster 20 years from now, You know, who's going to face a really similar crisis that you did. What did you learn? You know, what did you learn about the craft in that moment and how to navigate it through as grandmaster?

You know, what, what do you wish you might've done differently or done more of or done less of, you know, those sorts of really practical questions.  But  yeah, I mean,  that's a work in progress. I hope to have it in later this year. Uh,  I've, I've noticed that, uh,  You've been giving some other talks. Uh, you were recently at a local university.

Uh, you've been invited. You were at a TED talk recently, uh, in Surrey. Can you, can you talk a bit about your other research and your other presentations and, and maybe, uh, a little bit about your, your research?  I don't know if it's your master's or your PhD that you're working on. Yeah, it's my, it's my PhD.

So my third year of my PhD studies at the university of British Columbia. Well, congratulations. Thank you. It's a tough slog. Um, so  it's a weird confluence of things. I think that much, much like the.  The research I did into attacks on Masonic buildings, my dissertation is sort of bound up in the same moments during the pandemic, when the arsonist who attacked the buildings on the North Shore, he believed that there were like microchips or nanobots, you know, in the vaccines and, and that we, as the Freemasons writ large, were working Hand in hand with public health, you know, to put these mind control nanobots in, in, in vaccines and stuff.

So,  uh, so he burned our buildings down, um, to send a statement, I guess, or stop our nefarious plot.  And for me, you know, I think I might've mentioned this in one of the past podcast too, but I am a Freemason who does work in public health. And so when all this is happening, I felt like doubly, you know, um, Assaulted or, or, you know, um, but under the microscope,  I'm like, okay, I'm being attacked both in the conspiracy theorists that were there, you know, or let's just say people who were believing, you know, in these conspiratorial,  you know, narratives that were out there.

I'm surprised actually that, that, you know, Freemasonry was not You know, as front and center, perhaps, as it might have been in years past, there's a lot of resentment and paranoia is about the World Economic Forum or the United Nations or whatever else.  But nonetheless.  A lot of conspiracy theories about public health and about, about the, uh, the virus and about the public health response and, and, and Freemasonry and in some cases also being, you know, intertwined with those narratives.

So,  uh, both of them, whether it's my Masonic research or my academic research, I still feel like the,  that's reverberating. I'm still, I'm still coping with or still. Um, you know, grappling affected by, yeah, I'm still affected by it and still trying to sort out what happened and what we can learn from it, whether it's in Freemasonry or whether it's in society, you know, at a broader scale, or in the case of my dissertation,  what planners and other sort of public facing, you know, government bureaucrats technocrats might learn, um, you know, about, um, You know, how conspiracy theories and, and, and, uh, you know, these  wild and often emotionally charged narratives, um, can get people so upset about something that seems pretty mundane.

Otherwise, you know, traffic bullets or, you know, some, you know, we're going to redirect traffic on this ring road here. And suddenly people are screaming that, you know, George Soros and, you know, the lizard people are trying to lock you in an open air prison and you won't go, you're not allowed to go further than 15 minutes away.

Yeah. What I'm really interested in is, is, you know, how  the, the sort of affective power, you know, of these, um, conspiracy beliefs and, and there's an energy to them that, that really gets people whipped up in a way that just complaining about typical, you know, bureaucrats is, you know,  people aren't going to get quite as, uh, quite as, you know, uh, in a tizzy about. 

Yeah. Uh, that 15 minute cities thing was, if  people don't recall what the Fiorori was. All about it was, it was really about trying to make,  make neighborhoods walkable and, and, and keep you from having to get in your car just to pick up an avocado,  you know? And, and yet, uh, just like,  Oh, just like anything, it was, it was latched on and radicalized by, by, um, yeah, by political actors that, that,  uh, want to manipulate.

You know, members of the public, easily manipulatable members of the public. Yeah. I got bound up in the culture wars, you know, anything around climate, climate change, or anything that can be considered, you know, you want to, you want people to shift from automobiles to walking or whatever in their neighborhood or make it easier to do that.

And suddenly, you know, that's an assault on freedoms, you know, or instead of looking at it in the lens of, well, what about all the other people who want the freedom to walk, you know, to the store or, you know, the people who are in, you Wheelchairs or other mobility devices, you know, a neighborhood that's less car dependent and easier to get by and think about all the elderly people that are concerned about traffic that would.

Prefer to be able to walk safely to a park or to whatever else. There's a lot of other types of freedom, you know, to, and, uh, to do these things that, um, that people who, you know, are not, um, as car dependent, um, also deserve. And so  there's, there's a bit of an equity, you know, consideration in there, but yeah, what I'm, what I'm really interested in is sort of the rationality that the technical, um, rational bureaucrat, if you will,  interacting  The chaotic emotions of the highly volatile public that's been motivated by this outrageous sort of conspiracy theory that makes the, the otherwise mundane planning work into this diabolical, you know, uh, this diabolical affront to human liberty.

Uh, and so you have this clash of planners or a bureaucratic system that by default wants to have a rational. You know, discussion of around the technical merits of a plan, and then you have public showing up who just want nothing to do with that. They're on a completely different wavelength, they're operating with a completely different type of mindset.

And so I'm trying to get right in between those two, you know, the interactions that happen between a state. We're a regime that's trying to interact rationally and a public that's angry, uh, you know, distrustful, paranoid, uh, and, uh, and emotional. And so that's for me, where those things meet is, is a real interest to me.

I, I hear you talk a lot about this paranoid style in, in, in American politics, but just in, in global politics in general, and when, when did that get ratcheted up to you? To 11 to, to become this,  um,  it used to be that, that the conspiracy theorists and,  you know, radicals were marginalized.  And it did, did like the population just get a whole lot dumber all of a sudden, or, or, or was, has there been some benefit to particular, I, I, you know, I know this is a podcast about Freemasonry and we generally avoid politics, but because this affects the crap directly. 

Uh, and because you're an expert in such things, I, I want to know, you know, when, when did this get turned up to 11 and, and, and how are they dragging us all down into the muck with them now?  Well, I mean, you, you mentioned the, that paranoia or the paranoid style and that. I mean, that's attributed to Richard Hofstadter, a political historian who wrote in the, in the 19 some essays and books in the 1960s,  right around the time of, you know, the JFK assassination and, um, the McCarthy, you know, communist witch hunts of that era.

And, and, you know, you talk about things being ratcheted up to 11. Well, his, you know, his working hypothesis or or his theory, um,  Is that, you know, these things exist on the fringes, you go back to the French revolution, the American revolution and, and, um, that world order being turned upside down, of course, the, the, the church and, uh, the crown, you know, being these sort of twin pillars that made sense of everything.

And everyone, you know, fell into, fell into line, you know, the cosmology of the world and its political institutions and everything made sense in, in that, you know, with that sort of dual. Um, that dual system of, of, of power and, uh, and authority.  And then with those revolutions and the enlightenment and, and the rep, the scientific revolution, all these things chip away and eventually dissolve that world order, uh, and, and out of that.

You know, disruption or upending conspiracy theories begin to emerge to try and make sense of how on earth could something like this happen, you know, just trying to explain the inexplicable  and that travels from Europe over to the U. S. And again, Hofstadter looks at, you know, Puritan preachers. Who are very paranoid about, um, you know, European liberals coming over to America, you know, or other royalty, you know, continue to exert exert their influence, you know, in the colonies.

And then you start having paranoias about enemies within.  As opposed to enemies simply, you know, without, um, and Jesse Walker, who writes for reason magazine has a good sort of typology of, of those things, but Hofstetter is central sort of premises that these things every once in a while, move from the fringes to the center.

And he looks at the McCarthy, you know, uh, communist witch hunts as a prime example of moving from the fringe to the center. And I think what you see too, during like the pandemic or, you know, uh, the world trade center attacks or other things that are like traumatic. That are, you know, consequential, um, you know, pivots or, or fulcrums, you know, where history is, is made and things change.

Oftentimes people will search for any sort of answer. Yeah. No matter how absurd, because that's more empowering and comforting than having no answer right. And having to, you know, Uh, sit with the possibility that we live in a, in a, in a chaotic universe. Uh, and that there is no, nobody's got their hand on no one.

There's no wizard of Oz behind the curtain, directing everything. It's like, we are at the mercy of chaos here. So we have to try and create order. We have to try and create institutions, right? We have to try and impose some discipline and some meaning and structure. You know, which human civilization, human society is the pursuit of ultimately, we have to determine what is just, we have to determine the rules that sort of govern our, our behavior.

Uh, and so,  so in some ways it's not surprising with change accelerating that there's more and more people casting about for something to hang on to. Yeah. And, and it just, it's.  The, the, the way social media works, it just seems like one of the things, not everything, but it seems like many of the things have become this more radicalized politics on,  on  both sides of the equation, but really, um,  where people are, are accepting  just the most ridiculous stuff on faith.

Yeah without any evidence and and the more outrageous the more likely it is to stick and  It's terrifying and how how this all comes back to freemasonry is that we are directly affected by this  You know, by these,  by these people who have a hatred for the craft and have no understanding of what it really is.

And, and then, you know, we get  crazy people burning down our building. Yeah. And what, what I find also interesting about that, Troy, is that  there's  when cognitive scientists and, and, uh, other researchers, um, psychologists, you know, anthropologists, and they look at who believes conspiracy theories. There's, there's strong correlations between.

people who have, you know, um,  people who believe in angels or, you know, who are religious or people who, um, this, you know, believe in unseen agents, agenticity,  right. Or, um, and people who also, I think, want to, you know, often live in. An enchanted world, right? And I mean, I, and I would, I want to that part of what we're doing in the craft too, exactly as deists. 

And so, you know, so for those, so I, I absolutely agree that I, um,  I don't want to live in a completely disenchanted, you know, husk of a universe where, you know, uh, a technical rational bureaucratic state has rendered everything into just, you know, you know, mundane technical policy issues. Right. And I work.

In the world of mundane technical policy issues. So it's not that I don't think they matter, but they have a place, you know, with other things. And can we give technocracy a chance before we throw it out? Yeah. Well, I mean, I literally am. I literally am a technocrat, but I also. Do embrace the idea of, you know, living in an enchanted world.

And Freemasonry is one of those things. It keeps those traditions and customs of an enchanted world, you know, ritual initiations, ceremony, belief, you know, and, and so there are people that I think are attracted to Freemasonry that have the same type of qualities that cognitive scientists and others say give a pre or.

You know, involve a predisposition towards belief in conspiracy theories. And it was actually my TED talk that I gave recently was a TEDx Surrey talk. Um, it actually recounted a story of a falling out I had, um, with a brother. It's actually a couple of different brothers who have  amalgamated into a character who I, who I call Mac.

And, uh,  you know, we had these types of falling outs and I was like, why are you guys believing these things? Because we are the villains in these narratives, right? You know, we are like you're you're spreading conspiracy theories That are implicating you as a freemason as some part of this shadowy cabal who's like trafficking, you know Children and like doing these diabolical things Why are you acting against your own interest? 

In spreading these things, how can you, can you elaborate a little bit more about, about that story? Maybe you could,  yeah, well, tell a bit more about it. So the talk, the talk that I gave recently,  just last week was  a combination of thinking about the big picture of how, Our discourse has been unraveling as people's brains have been melted by conspiracy theories and misinformation, deep fakes, whatever else, you know, just it's chaos right now,  but also, you know, a very personal experience of having falling outs of people I care about.

And I've talked with so many people who had family members, you know, sons who have been estranged from their parents or a parent who's been estranged from their, their son or daughter. Um, I, I don't discuss such things with my brother. Yeah, I know. You know, I've got a. I count myself,  I count myself lucky, but so many people I know have said, I can't talk, I can't go for dinner anymore with the people, you know, with my family members because of this stuff. 

And so, you know, I share just my personal experiences of how I've come to believe over time that trying to have this fact based, fact based discussions.  Um, if you don't believe conspiracy theories or, or a conspiracy theory, and yet someone in your life does,  you know, if, if you're, you're not going to convince each other based on facts to change your position most of the time, you know, what I've seen is that fact based discussions become Tautological, or they just become circular.

And I will have my set of facts that I got from, you know, the Globe and Mail and the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine. And you'll have yours from Reddit and Facebook and, you know, whatever else, you know, you're getting it from, you know, right. And, and, and we, we know what you mean. Yeah. And so we have these, we have people who are living in completely different realities.

That have been influenced by these different media spheres, right? We have different sets of facts that were, you know, that we're abiding by or, or believing. And so for me, a lot of the talk was sort of my, my experience with some of the brethren that I had these really, um, you know, uh, fraught discussions with was, was sort of about how I realized.

There was no convincing them, you know, there was, there was nothing I could say. As a public health professional who works with,  you know, the top public health leaders in our region, who was there in the mix, as we were setting up the immunization clinics and learning about the, you know, the disease and trying our best to sort out what, what we ought to do, that would be in the best interest of protecting health and preventing our economy and healthcare system from completely collapsing.

And, you know,  it was frustrating. And then at one point I realized, you know what? We should maybe just try and shift the discussion and start talking about  the ways that we feel in a more general sense, you know, tell me more about why you don't trust the pharmaceutical companies,  you know, and they might recount a story. 

That actually has, you know, some legitimacy, like I had an allergic reaction or I see these billionaires that make so much money selling, uh, you know, look at the pharmaceuticals that got rich off of opioids. Or, you know, look at the corruption and the Sattler's yeah, exactly. And so, I mean, there's all these, so underneath the paranoia is about, you know, the mRNA vaccines might actually be this, this stack of other things that you're actually not discussing because you're talking about 5g cell towers and, you know, nanobots and that discussion goes nowhere.

But once you start talking about power or, you know, corporate greed or, you know, a lack of transparency around things.  Those discussions can become more meaningful. You can actually start to get a sense of like why someone might actually believe, you know, some of these more outlandish things. And so we ended up having much better discussions and even myself about, you know, someone who works in government who has for years, I, I have feelings too, about government transparency and accountability and government overreach.

Right. I have concerns. There's, there's lots of examples of it being Yeah. Of of us doing terrible things at the name of public policy. Oh. I mean, we've, we've made mistakes. We don't get it. Right, of course. Yeah. All, you know. But in the moment, all time in the, in the moment, you gotta make a decision and sometimes it's too much one way or too much the other way.

And that's, you know, uh, that we had that in Covid, in spades, and not just in North America,  democratic governments, but um, all governments everywhere had trouble. Reacting to it. They're overreacting or underreacting. And in hindsight, it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and say, well, we should have done things different.

Yeah. Well, with, with government, whether it's my experience in planning or in public health, you know, you can, for some people you won't go far enough. And for others, you know, you've gone way too far. And, uh,  you know, uh,  anyway, all that to say that the, the healthier and more constructive discussions I ended up having with my friends and brothers who believed conspiracy theories.

Eventually stopped trying to have a war of facts. And instead we, we got a little bit beneath that surface and started having other more general discussions about freedom, our bodies, technology, you know, government and corporations. And though, you know, we were able to relate to each other again, once we like, you know, deescalated.

Things a little bit. So the Ted talk sort of explores that type of, of, you know, approach. And that actually draws on work in South Africa and other countries around reconciliation, like having really difficult discussions about  trauma and, um, conflict and like really, you know, really heavy stuff that you have to work through. 

And so, um, you know, there are, there are facilitative and dialogic approaches that we can learn from if we want to have better discussions with people in our lives who, you know, believe conspiracy theories, and we have a hard time having discussions with them, because we might be stuck in our sort of like, why do you believe this stuff?

This sounds crazy. You know, uh, And just thinking that we might be able to convince them, you know, that's, I just don't think that's how it works. Yeah. Uh, you know, it's, it's, it's fascinating Wes. And I, that's all of that's really heavy. And at some point we'll capture a talk or two or three of yours and put them out on the podcast.

And, uh, you know, cause I think this is valuable material. Um, but I like to just, uh, switch gears for a minute here. Uh, one of the features we'd like to do on the show was to have.  delicious things to drink that might be masonically themed. Maybe something to eat. Maybe if we get some higher end cigars, maybe we'll even smoke the cigars.

I don't know how we're going to do that in here. But, but, uh, you brought today, uh, something, I don't know if it's specifically masonic, 33 acres of life, California common beer. It's a four and a half, 4. 8%, uh, 33 acres company. It's, it's looks very plain on a can, but we'll, uh, give it a little taste here. I  like this idea of  whether it's explicitly Masonic or whether you can go way out in a limb and say, someone could mistake this perhaps for being Masonic.

I'm pretty sure these guys, you should, you should get the head right up to the microphone there. These guys have nothing to do with the craft, but yeah. Oh, that was, um, that's delicious. And I don't normally drink, uh, drink beer.  But I think, uh, to include our listeners in our partaking, um, I'd like to thank some podcast heroes of mine, the Gary and Dino show that do a, um, Bransky's brew review, uh, regularly.

And, uh, they're both well, at least Gary on the show is constantly drinking. So I'd like to thank him for the inspiration and, uh, cause talking is thirsty business. And so thanks for bringing that. Um,  Let's, uh, let's change gears to something a little lighter.  Uh, not sure if we have talked about in the past on,  on digital recording about, um, what brought you to the craft.

I mean, clearly you're an intelligent guy, philosophical guy, thoughtful guy. Um,  what, what brought you to the craft? What kept you in the craft? You know, we ever talked about that. It's so interesting. You say you want to switch gears and yet I'm sorry to bring you all the way back to conspiracy theories once again.

No, that's fine because  I do think that a lot of. A lot of younger guys who have read some of these stuff online, you know, are intrigued and Temple in the Lodge. Yeah. Holy Blood, Holy Grail. And some young The Templar Revelation. Exactly. I mean, come on. Some young guys have come to me and, and like said, Oh, you know, here's a site or whatever.

And this is, is this legit? Or, you know, I read this about the craft and, you know,  maybe some people might be dismissive of that and say, Oh boy, I don't want this guy in the lodge. But for me, I'm like, you know what? He's curious. He's looking, he's asking questions and he's asking  Me, what I think of this, you know, particular thing.

So for me, it was, it was like that. I was reading so many of those different, you know, whether it's pseudo history or, or, uh, conspiracy theory books. And I just walked into the old building on eighth and Granville  years ago. I just walked in and started talking to the guy that was the front there. Gordon Phillips.

Yeah. He was a member of Capilano Lodge. And young and haughty in the little, in the little ritual store. Yeah. That's why I was fascinated. I was intimidated.  Just trying to, you know, I remember the feeling of walking in there and thinking like, I'm an outsider. This is, I'm in a place where I'm not  pouring this product, uh, not to interrupt you, sorry, but  what do you call it?

The product, uh, Foley? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I walked in there and he was very generous with his time. And I would ask him what, you know, I'd point at something, what's this apron about, or what's this, you know,  sash about whatever,  you know? And he was. Really good. Just like putting up with me. And then one day he asked me, I'd been coming in for several months.

And one day he asked me, he's like, are you, are you interested? Are you interested in joining?  I mean, I didn't know I could, you know, I've just been reading these books and I wanted to come in. I'm just studying. Wow. They're not supposed to ask, you know, you're supposed to ask that. Well, he asked me if I was interested in joining Freemasonry.

Right. Pretty open. We don't, we don't. Usually recruit people have to ask us, I consider that a, you know, you were coming around and coming around and come to him. He was soliciting, he was like, are you actually interested in joining? Are you just coming here to like, ask me questions about aprons? Do you think, do you think you have a little more patience for, for guys with a conspiratorial bent?

Or a curiosity that way, because I know, I know I do, even though I have like almost no patience for, for people actually spouting this crazy material as evidence recently, I got, I got texted by a new brother, uh, some pretty crazy stuff. And, and, you know, I had to decide what to do with that, but do you find yourself.

Much more sympathetic. Yeah. Maybe to a younger guy with these questions and no, no real slot, no real place in the world. Nobody asked about this stuff. Yeah, I do. And I think that when the attacks in the buildings happened, I, I became pretty critical, like, and pretty  impatient. Around conspiracy theory beliefs and actually doing my PhD and reading more and more about conspiracy theories, cognitive science and, and, and like the, the sociological, you know, aspects of, of conspiracy beliefs and all these things have actually made me more sympathetic and empathetic.

Yeah. Uh, and in particular, I think for me, what I find.  I have a certain respect for conspiracy theories, particularly when they're about critiques of power. Yeah. So if you want to talk to me about banking, let's talk about international banking, let's talk about international finance, let's talk about globalization and what that's done to jobs and in how that's, you know, changed real estate speculation.

Yeah. Thank you. I'm happy to talk about that, but once you start talking about Jewish bankers, I'm gonna stop you right there. Yeah. And I'm just gonna, you know, like that once you start, you know, talk or what, even wanna complain about the public health response fund. I work in public health. Let's talk about rights, freedoms, obligations.

Sure. The economy, you know, let's have a, let's have a civil dialogue. You know, talk to me about you. You, you felt that the process was rushed to get the vaccines. Out and you had anxieties or apprehensions about that. Perfectly fine to have to hear more about that. But once you start calling it the Wuhan flu, you know, or once you start blaming it, you know, on, on Asian people, I'm going to stop you right there.

That's not a conversation that I think is worth having. So when we have conspiracy theories that attack. People because they are, you know, they essentialize people into, you know, being something, or they just simply want to attack them because of their, their race or ethnicity or belief or, or they're a Freemason, you know, whatever their affiliations, I have no, I have zero patience for that.

But when it comes to critiquing government or corporations or elites in general, heck yeah, let's talk all night about that. I'm fully, fully up for that conversation. Thank you. You know, and that's conspiracy theories can be a good entry point to have good, critical, interesting conversations. You could have a civil conversation about that.

If people learn how to engage properly and that  that's so much of, of, um,  of what we teach in the craft, I think is to have a civil conversation about some difficult stuff. Um,  so, uh,  this beer is delicious, by the way, uh, 33 acres of life. I would, um, I would say what four out of five stars. It's pretty.

Pretty delicious. Thanks, Wes, for bringing that down for us. It was my birthday recently, and, uh,  Casey, past master of, uh, Mount Hermon. Nice. And I went for a quick one. I picked these up then, so. Nice, nice.  So,  we have a number of young men that are approaching the craft these days. And they're looking for some sort of civic engagement.

You know, the craft is a good place to, to start with civic engagement and self reflection and self improvement. Uh,  but there's some people that are already quite far down this conspiracy theory, theory.  whole,  how, how are we, again, how are we going to engage these guys? What's the best way to engage these guys? 

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I  mean, there's two things that come to mind there. One is that the,  I mean,  the teachings of the fellow craft degree in particular, I think offer. A really good grounding to have discussions about,  you know, not that, not that, uh, in the fellow craft degree, we talk about epistemology or, or, you know, ontology or whatever, but it's a, it's a, it's a good background of the basics of science and how to handle evidence.

Exactly. How did we get to a point where today we have complex science  and complex social systems? I mean, the fellow craft degree.  Offers a lot of fertile ground to have discussions about critical thinking, uh, and about cultivating, you know, the life of the mind, uh, reading, you know, and  the, the liberal arts and sciences, you know, these traditional, um, bedrock sort of foundations for, for critical thinking.

And, and how to separate faith or your spiritual life, your inner life. From an evidence based or rational outer life. Yeah. And that's what I love about Freemasonry too, is that it makes, you know, for me, back to my earlier comment about I'm a classic, you know, upper, lower, mid level technocrat, um, you know, I'm in that rational system of policy government all the time.

And yet I still. Need to make space and feel nourished by initiation ritual, a more, you know, mystically inclined, enchanted, you know, uh, life, uh, and Freemasonry. I love Freemasonry because it makes room for both of those things. It says much like Thomas Paine or I think it was Thomas Paine who said, why would God give us the ability to reason and then demand that we abandon it?

Yes. Um, it might've been Jefferson. I think that sounds, that sounds like a Thomas Paine quote,  but, uh, but yeah, this idea that like, this is a gift. You know, God gave us the gift to think critically and to question, you know, and, and of course, you know, conspiracy theorists would say, well, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Yeah. You know, but of course, as a trained academic, I would say, well, look at your, or, you know, are you inferring something? Yes. Are you taking a fundamentalist stance? Assumption and then find the evidence to support it. Are you looking at all the evidence? Are you seeing patterns? Are you attributing something to unseen agents?

And these are all like academic literature looks at how yeah, there's gaps of reasoning or logical fallacies or leaps of you know, logic involved in that. So it's  almost like you're going through. A process of believing that you're thinking critically, but in terms of any sort of academic approach to, to validating, you know, the, the veracity of the evidence you're working with, there's a lot of shortcuts and sloppiness and, and bias confirming, you know, choices that, that are often made.

And that's not to say that you, you know, it's not to say that there isn't a kernel of truth, possibly some conspiracy theories, but anyway,  all that to say  that I do think we can ground meaningful discussions with these young guys in the teachings of the degrees. Yeah. And you know, whether that's a craft lodge or I think Scottish right also offers a great, like a lot of the Scottish right degrees similarly have a strong focus on, you know, on civil society and ethics and justice.

And  so I think there's lots to draw from, you know, in the craft in that regard. And I also think there's a lot of young guys today are struggling in terms of, you know, You know, developing a masculine identity  that makes sense in today's world, a one that they can feel, you know, good about,  uh, and build on.

And I think that the craft offers a place to do that, uh, that is very thoughtful, um, you know, well cultivated, well rounded. And if we, you know, if we don't offer that, then they'll get that from less, Noble, uh, nobly intended, um, you know, actors out there, uh, who, who, you know, are going to  pray off the feelings of, uh, anger or resentment or, uh, anxiety, you know, a lot of young men understandably feel, you know, today.

And and looking for civic engagement and they could do worse than the crack. You know, this is this is a good place for them.  Uh, and I just I have my own struggles with embracing them and helping them learn the way to to think about these things. Um, but, you know, who knows if.  We'll be able to get them to a place where, uh, they can stand on their own two feet, think their own thoughts, you know, and be their own man.

Well, I think the longer,  the longer we keep them in the lodge,  the greater the chances of that happening are. I agree.  Um,  And by keeping the lodge, I don't mean force them.  I mean, keep their interest, keep their and keep them engaged because it is voluntary, right? You can't eat it. And that's, I'd like to bring it back around.

And, and then you're sort of winding up the commentary here.  We learned about.  You know how you stumbled across the craft, but what,  why did you stay like so many, so many people join and then just drift away. That's not for them. Why was this for you in particular? Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's for everyone.

No, honestly. No, it's historically it's about for a third of the guys who try. Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of it is finding those other  third of the guys who stick around and realizing  You know, deep connections that are, you know, through Freemasonry that have made our friendships,  you know, really meaningful and important to me, but I also like the challenge.

The challenge of going through the different degrees and learning the memory work and the floor work and. Just the, you know, these beautiful degrees to be a custodian or to be an inheritor of something, uh, is  to me like that there's a feeling of constancy or, or a foundation or stability, or I don't know quite how to explain it, but in a world that's so constantly changing and just so chaotic and dynamic to think that we have this ritual that goes back, you know, hundreds of years. 

Sure. It's changed a little bit here and there and whatever, but, you know, to think that we've inherited this  thing that we find so meaningful and beautiful and get to hand that on to someone else  is also something that, you know, to me, it has, uh,  kept me committed.  Another thing that's really important is that as a young guy coming into the craft, in my late twenties,  I was given responsibility.

Uh, I was entrusted, you know, with the lodge and with things like Grand Mason, grand Masonic Day is a good example. John Ted, God bless him, you know, he, uh, passed away from the, the heat dome that hit here in, in, in New West and lower Mainland, but he looped us in pretty early. Yeah. He saw young guys who were, who were eager. 

You know, and who maybe had some, you know, um, basic level of competency that could be  worked with built on. And, uh, and you know, that also I think was really important. I think it's a good balance that you need to strike between getting these young guys engaged and giving them some responsibility and showing.

Showing them that you see the potential in them, but at the same time, not overwhelming them and not saying, you know, you need to get through the chairs and be in the East. This guy might have, he might want to have kids in a couple of years. He might be in school or starting a new business, you know? So I think we have to, you know, strike a balance there.

But for me being given some responsibility and being entrusted, that, that responsibility felt really good. And it felt like a real validation, like that I'm being invited into, or I've been welcomed into something so historic and so fascinating and so interesting and valuable. And then entrusted with a little bit of responsibility to, to be a part of building, you know, that,  that definitely kept me, you know, interested.

Uh, and, uh, I think that we, we need to be mindful of that today when, uh, when we see these young guys and think about, you know, how we keep them in lodge.  Well, Wes, I think that's as good a note as any, uh, to end it on. I want to thank you for coming by today. We talked a little bit about Grand Masonic Day, May 25th. 

Uh, we're going to be having Chris Hodat, brother Christopher Hodat, uh, Freemasonry for Dummies coming with a, with a keynote. Uh, any final comment?  Yeah. Just, uh, buy your tickets at, um, Eventbrite. Yeah. Eventbrite, uh, GMD. 2024. eventbrite. ca, and I'll make sure to post that in the show notes.  Yeah. And in, uh, in years past, we've, you know, uh, entered apprentices and fellow crafts, definitely welcome.

If you're a  📍 non Mason and you want to attend, get in touch with us. And, uh, and we can talk more, uh, we've had in years past, we've had non Masons and some of the events. Yeah. Do you want to, do you want to leave an email address here for people to reach out to you if they're interested in the content?

What about the pod? What about your podcast? Sure. You could email me. It's, that's Troy at mystic tie. com T R O Y at M Y S T I C T Y E. com, uh, please any show feedback, any, any feedback for Wes or any questions you have for the show, please let us know. Thank you.  And I would just say that, you know, we still have a final program that's coming out soon, but there will be some breakout sessions.

And Trevor McKeown has said that he is up for presenting something. I haven't put him on the spot quite yet. And, uh, we may have another brother from Seattle who has a presentation. That'll be of, I think a lot of interest to the guys too. And we're just finalizing that, but, uh, definitely looking forward to, to Chris's talk, the don't forget as well, the junior grand warden.

Uh, we'll also be given the dinner  address, uh, it's usually a luncheon. Now, of course it's dinner. Yes, of course. And,  uh, yeah, and my talk about my Philolithes paper. So yeah.  Well, thanks again, Wes, for coming by today. Uh, you've been listening to your host, Troy Spru and our guests, Wes Regan on the Mystic Thai podcast, podcast for Freemasons.

You can find us on the internet at www dot. Mystic tie M. Y. S. T. I. C. T. Y. E. dot com.  Also bear in mind we are building a Masonic calendar for major Masonic events globally.  One thing on our calendar for sure is Esotericism and Freemasonry Conference 2024, which will be September 27th to 29th in Seattle, Washington, organized by myself and, uh, worshipful brother Ken Lane.

This will be our eighth year and we're getting ready to announce a keynote speaker. We are looking for papers for, uh, EFC 2024. If you have something Masonic and esoteric related that you'd like to come and speak about

 As always, you can find us on the internet at mystictye. com, that's  M Y S T I C. com.  And as brethren,  happy to meet, sorry to part,  and happy to meet again.