Grand Masonic Day 2024 Keynote Chris Hodapp Interview

Grand Masonic Day 2024 Keynote Chris Hodapp Interview

In this episode I am honored to present my recent interview with Br. Chris Hodapp. We talk about his upcoming appearance at Grand Masonic Day 2024 as our keynote speaker, how posting over 5000 entries in his blog was no big deal, and whether Freemasonry is ONLY for Dummies. Enjoy!

https://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/

Grand Masonic Day https://gmd2024.eventbrite.com/

You can find us online at https://www.mystictye.com/ 

Christopher L. Hodapp is the author of Freemasons For Dummies, the world's best-selling introduction to the Masonic fraternity. His blog of the same name is the most widely read source of current national and international news about Freemasonry. He has been a Mason since 1998, and is a Past Master of Broad Ripple Lodge 643, Lodge Vitruvian 767 and the Dwight L. Smith Lodge of Research, all in Indianapolis, Indiana. He was also the founding editor of the Journal of the Masonic Society twelve years ago. His most recent Masonic book was Heritage Endures for the 200th anniversary of the founding of the Grand Lodge of Indiana in 2018.

Chris is a 33rd degree Mason in the Scottish Rite. In the York Rite, he is a founding member of Levant Preceptory, Indiana’s medieval Knight Templar degree team. He’s belongs to countless other Masonic organizations and research groups, and is Friar #101 in the Society of Blue Friars, an organization that honors Masonic authors. In 2018 he was awarded the Caleb B. Smith Medal of Honor by the Grand Lodge F&AM of Indiana for his "distinguished service to Freemasonry in Indiana and worldwide." He currently serves the Grand Lodge as Director of the Indiana Masonic Library and Museum and numerous committees.

Chris has authored six books about Freemasonry, fraternalism, and various secretive societies, and two have been with his wife and collaborator, Alice Von Kannon.  He and Alice have appeared on the History Channel, NatGeo, Discovery, and the American Heroes Channel. They have both written for the History Channel and TruTV, and they’ve written several books for the For Dummies series, most recently, RVs & Campers For Dummies.

 Chris and Alice recently celebrated their 47th anniversary, and they live in Indianapolis with their canine companions, Sophie the Flying Poodle and Max the idiot circus dog, who have them both answering to basic commands. They can frequently be found startling the wildlife and dazzling the rustics in their Airstream trailer as they crisscross the country. Appropriately, their newest book together is RV Vacations For Dummies, released in June 2023.

 Email me feedback, guest suggestions and any other questions at troy@mystictye.com

 We are looking to create a directory of Freemasonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up please let me know by email. 

Coming up on May 25th is Grand Masonic Day at Agnes Street in New Westminster BC. Also mark your calendars for Sept 27th-29th for Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference 2024 in Seattle Washington.

 Grand Masonic Day https://gmd2024.eventbrite.com/

 Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference www.esotericmasonry.com 

 Remember to sign up for our newsletter at mystictye.com to get notified of upcoming episodes and events. 

Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet again. 

Transcript

Welcome to the Mystic Tie,  a podcast for Freemasons.  I am your host, Troy Spru.  Today, we are talking to Chris Hodapp.  Christopher L. Hodapp is the author of Freemasons for Dummies, the world's best selling introduction to the Masonic fraternity. His blog, of the same name, is the most widely read source of current national and international news about Freemasonry, and he has been a Mason since 1998.

Please welcome with me, Chris Hodapp.  Brother Chris Hodapp, welcome to the show. 

Thanks very much, Troy. I appreciate it. 

Now,  we have you on for mercenary reasons.  I myself, uh, and Wes Regan are the organizers of, of the longest running educational event in the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon. That's Grand Masonic Day happening this year. That's 2024, May 25th. So in just a few weeks, um, Saturday afternoon, May 25th,  um, and you will be the keynote.  And so we wanted to get you on the podcast. 

So we could create some interest, maybe sell a few tickets. Um, 

And hopefully not the opposite, uh, situation

And chase people away. Uh, I've been joking, you know, it's, it's funny. Anybody who's seen me at lodge recently and heard me talk about you, uh, it's the Freemasonry for Dummies guy because a lot of people have heard of the book, but more masons have read the blog, right? It's a very popular blog.  Uh, but, but I, the question I have for you is, is Freemasonry only for dummies? 

Ha ha ha ha!  Of course not! Hey, hey, we are, hey, face it, we are the famous Freemasons of the future. You know that, right?

I like that. 

I just made that up! Ha

That's good. I like that. The, um, the

that down! That was a real gem!

yeah, sure. We're recording. So that's,

There you go!

uh, this, uh, is Freemasonry only for dummies has been getting, uh, uh, loud, uh, loud laughs and applause everywhere. I've said it. So, uh, perhaps that could be a followup to Freemasonry for dummies 

Yeah, well, unfortunately, uh, uh, Wiley Publishing owns that trademark and, um, uh, Uh, I've had several run ins with their, uh, legal department

Oh man,

I periodically, you know, they, they, they change hands pretty often, and so I periodically have to re educate them into what's been done previously, what they've let me get away with over the years, and, and, you know, what I've, what I've browbeaten them into letting me get away with over the years.

that's amusing. Um,

it isn't. It isn't a bit of music. I, you know,  I was bummed today. I, I opened up a box of, a new box of books that came and I suddenly discovered they've raised the price on the book again by another 3, uh, on top of the other 5 they added two years ago. It's going up 8 in, in two and a half years.  I don't get any more money for that.

I,

I was just going to say, are you,

drive sales down, but they don't listen to me. Uh,

are you seeing any more royalties? Every time 

no, of course not. No, my agreements dated 2005. Are you kidding?

you hear it, heard it here first folks,  but we'd still encourage you to buy a copy.

absolutely. Buy two, buy one for every bathroom and they are, they're informative, soft, and thoroughly absorbent. So, uh,

my, uh, my good friend, Lon Duquette says that any event he's done for me, you don't have to read them, but please, please buy the books.

extras.

I've made no further plans for my family's future,

There you go. Got a wobbly table somewhere and he's propping 

He's such a character, and uh, you actually remind me of him a little bit, uh, now that we're talking. Cause, uh, everybody knows, uh, a published author, you know, but most people have never met somebody who's made any money in the publishing business. There's, there's,  there's, there's almost no way to make money from books.

Um, Before we get rolling, I want to talk about what you're gonna talk about at Grammy Sonic Day, but I talked to Rush Charvonia recently, and because, uh, you're more timely, um, than he is, because he's not coming to Grammy Sonic Day, but you are, for the keynote, uh, you wrote the advance for

and rub it in to

wrote the advance. 

You wrote the advance for the civility was a beautiful introduction to it, and  I thought that was interesting how you point out some of the history of why the craft spread and how important it was in the in informing.  You know, what, what became a very pluralist, uh, democratic nation,  you know, um, anyway, uh, there's a question in

realize people don't realize when you talk about the history, certainly in the United States, uh,  also in Canada, but at the time that, that the, the revolutionary war happened time of the declaration of independence, the time of the constitution prior to that moment, everybody on this continent. Had been a royal subject of one place or another, no matter where they came from.

Because that was, that was the system that existed everywhere throughout Western Europe. And so, who the hell's gonna know how to operate a democratic republic? Nobody ever taught them how. They had no reason to know how. And suddenly Freemasonry, uh, suddenly had a mission.  I always say the, you know, the, the, the deep thinking brain boxes out on the Eastern seaboard, uh, who, who were members of Masonic lodges went, hold it.

We've been doing this for a while. We've been electing our own officers. I mean, when, when, when, uh, uh, when French Royal troops busted a, a, uh, a Masonic meeting in Paris in the, in the 1730s,  Um, they were shocked by what they found when they, when they burst into the room, they were,  you, you had a black trumpeter from, from the royal household sitting there along with shopkeepers and Jews and, and you name it, it was this enormous cross section of the citizenry in Paris, and they were doing the most horrifying thing they could possibly do.

They were electing the officers for the next year.  And so  that's the world that this grew up in. Um, and, and so when it came to North America, it suddenly had, had this background in doing that because guys in those days, you know, you get in an argument with somebody over, over something and everybody gets hot enough, but you go out and shoot him in the back in the street.

Yeah, 

Um, and so Freemasonry taught them. You don't do that. You know, this is the way you hash it out and learn, learn how to lose gracefully.  You know, there's, there's something that we could certainly be teaching each other these days  because it doesn't happen anymore.

civil discourse, and, and, and how to lose gracefully, how to, how to press your issue without causing violence, you know, how to wait for your turn or your, or, or your, um, your ideologies turn, you know, You know,  how, how to run a committee, how to run a civic government. Uh, these are all things that,  um, you know, as, as you would argue, it's as Freemasonry moved West, it just kinda.

It gathered the stakeholders that were in one place and helped them to kind of find a way through. Um, and it, it's a shame that we get, um,  you know, the short shrift in, uh, in, in western movies that the Killers of the Flower Moon is a key point. You know that they're, they're, they're in a lodge room spanking a guy, um, which has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

No, it had, frankly, it had nothing to do with the scene,

no, and neither, no, and uh, just, just more sensationalism. Um, so it, it, will you be talking about such things that when you, when you come here for your, you know, for Grand

Oh, I absolutely, yeah, I absolutely will. Because I think, I think it is truly important. I think it's something that we need to contemplate that we need to keep in mind. Uh, you know, because these days it's, it's difficult to not carry the same kind of, of noxious tribalism that we all have out wandering in the world with each other.

Uh, into a Masonic Lodge. It's, it's difficult to check that at the door and say, nope, not tonight. That's not what we're doing.  Uh, and so it's  It goes back to before the show we were talking about Jamie Paul Lamb talking about building temples in the hearts of men

Yeah. Archetypal

an esoteric point of view. Well, I  just from a personal living point of view.

That's what we really need to be doing  And there's nothing spooky about that. It's, it's, it's a very real thing. 

Well, that's excellent. I'm, uh, I'm, I'm stoked to hear you speak. Um, you know, I've, I've been reading your blog at, uh, Freemasons for Dummies. I think it's  freemasonsfordummies. com, isn't it?  But it's easy to find on the internet if you

It is. I'm everywhere.

Yeah. Yes. It's it's easy to get there and you always have great articles uh, and my hat's off to you for  continually and um,  and uh, Consistently putting forth your opinion you present the facts like a newspaper reporter, but you'll often include opinion You know, you're you're editorializing often as well And you're not afraid to take a stand on a controversial point  I imagine also with so many of these points, uh, when confronted, uh, with the counterpoint, you would allow the other person to hold the counterpoint and have, and have a discussion about it and still shake hands as brothers and sit down and break bread together,

Oh, sure. I mean, I've had situations where, uh, somebody will, will send me a, you know, this big scathing letter privately. And I'll say, can I put this up? And, you know, you're, you're making a good point. It may be a stupid point, but I'm perfectly willing to put,  um, you know, uh, because that's part of what this is all about.  Not necessarily right.  It's just that it's my blog. So that's my living room. And, and, you know, so, so I'll say those things, but if somebody changes my mind or somebody doesn't change my mind,  you know,  I'm not so doctrinaire about something that, that I can't entertain somebody else's point of view about it for heaven's sake.  If I was, I wouldn't have learned anything in this damn fraternity.

isn't that interesting that we would point that out because, um,  it's so much in the, in the modern world,  uh, outside of the lodge, you know, uh, making room for other people's opinion.  It's that's seem to be effort, you know, or, or that's, that's, that's, uh, too political or that's too religious or whatever, and yet just allowing people to hold a different opinion that doesn't harm anybody. 

No.  Although an awful lot of people think it does.  I don't know.

Well, and that's, who knows if that's a result of, of, um, of social media, changing the media landscape. Um, you know, uh, I've, I've joked about it a lot where, you know, as, as hard as that was consuming all your news through very few funnels, you know, waving your fist at the establishment. Wouldn't it all be great to go back to the establishment that was, that was creating a filter and keeping the,  nuts and flakes, out of,  out of the, um, out of the political discourse of the day

Sure. It, it, yes, they filtered the news. Yeah, they did. Absolutely. They, they were, they were guided to take up certain stories and they were guided away from certain stories. Yes. All true, but it was a filter at a time when, when there was an attitude of you don't act a certain way in public, you don't, you know,  when, when, when TV news or radio news comes into somebody's car or into their living room,  you have a responsibility  not to scream at them, not to, not to, you know, crank open their heads and pour bile into it.

Um,  you know, and, and so, and those filters are all gone. They're, they're all gone.

Yes, and, and now we have, uh, huge media conglomerates doing exactly what you're suggesting, you

Oh, sure.

opening their brains and pouring bile in, and people with less and less of a rational resistance to that, whether that's, you know, the algorithm's gotten so much better than, than our resistance to misinformation,  or people just, they don't want to resist the misinformation, it's easier just to adopt it.

Right. a viewpoint that already is consistent with your own, um,  with, with your own prejudices.  And that's such a shame.

Something, something else that, that, that masonry was wrapped up with was it was masonry from the beginnings, uh, in the United States and Canada,  um,  was wrapped up in, in societal norms, quote unquote. Okay. Um, there were institutions. Uh, that created a certain kind of behavior and a certain attitude within, within a town, within a religion, within a country, uh, or just within a state.

Um, and, and so churches and, and government and newspapers and Freemasonry and other social organizations like that were all wrapped up in that, in, in sort of this generalized Western attitude of, of, of, of good manners. Thank you very much. Of, of  not telling you how to think, but, but telling, cause they're telling you how to behave,  be respectful of people,

Yeah.

which sounds like such a simple, stupid thing,  but, you know, years ago, I, I wrote a blog entry that got longer than it should have.

Um, but I was talking about in the early days of public education in the United States, there was a series of books that were published. Um, called the McGuffey reader  and McGuffey was a guy who, who came up with a way of teaching people how to read starting with phonics. Um, um, it was a very early primitive form of that.

And as. Each grade developed and each book developed, uh, they become more and more difficult materials to read. Um, and they were, they were the first real textbooks that were designed from scratch. Um,  because people used to learn just by rote memorization and McGuffey actually gave you lots of different, uh, reading excerpts and things.

And, and what was fascinating to me was the sheer. Numbers of these books that went out there that were published, um, that stayed in circulation, uh, you know, schools would buy these things,  kids couldn't afford books in those days, schools would buy the books and the kids would read them and then they, they, the same books would stay there to the next year and the next year and the next year until they finally wore out.

But they were excerpts from the, they would usually use excerpts from what were the classics books from the Romantic period, biblical excerpts. Um, um,  you name it, they would grab them from all kinds of different sources. So, so there would be Shakespeare passages and things, certain passages were there

the foundations of Western society, essentially.

exactly.

Right. They were condensed versions of the philosophy and the arts and, and, and the writings of Western society for, for four centuries.  And  my whole point of that was everybody in the country for 70 years, that was how everybody learned whether you were rich or poor,  whether you were fresh off the immigration boat, or you were fifth generation  of living where you live.

Everybody learned to read using that same common bunch of knowledge,  and that busted apart starting after World War II. Uh, the books fell out of favor, um, and, and by 1960, they were pretty much completely wiped out of the system. Interestingly enough, the, uh, the homeschool movement in the United States,  started picking them up again.

They, they, they started, you know, here was this ready made textbook series that wasn't particularly expensive and, and taught people to read the way people learned how to read for a hundred and some odd years. And so they became popular again. They're still very popular with those, with those folks. But the point of matter is we all had this common knowledge, this common ground that we all shared, whether it was conscious or not.

And all of that has gone. All that's been blown apart.

Yeah.

Um,  and we don't have much in common anymore. And that's what, that's sort of the unique position that Freemasonry has, because suddenly when you go through the ceremonies in Masonic Lodge, you, you step off of a plane in, in Europe or in, in Jamaica or wherever in the world that you go and you encounter a fellow Freemason, you guys don't have the slightest thing in common,  except this, except this fraternity and what we do.

And the ritual that we use.

Right. The ritual that we do, even though that changes everywhere you look too.

True, but there's enough, there's enough core elements. Uh, I've seen, I've seen the ritual performed in a language I don't speak.  And you could still recognize. The key elements  of our  mythology,  what I would call it. Um, and even though you don't understand the lectures, you get the point of the lecture because you know what the symbolism and they're talking about and

For years I talked, I talked, you know, uh, this is completely tangential, but that's the way my brain works. Right. And, um, but the, uh, what I find it interesting that about somewhere, depending on whose poll you look at anywhere from 20 to about 24 percent of American Freemasons, uh, say that they're, that they're Catholics.

Okay. Which I find interesting since the church. Bans Catholics from becoming Masons, but at any rate, that's a separate topic. Point of matter is, one of the appeals of the Catholic Church, Catholic meaning it was a universal church, was everywhere you went up until 1965, you got the Latin Mass. And I don't care if you were in New Jersey, or if you were in Vancouver, or if you were in Italy. 

Didn't matter. You all, you all got the Latin mass. Okay. And, and I've joked for years that ever since then, Catholic Masons are really good people that desperately want to return to the Latin mass so that, so that it's the same everywhere they go. Oh yeah. Oh

But isn't that a good, isn't that a good advertisement for this? This might be even controversial, a statement, this deist.  Universalist,  um,  I don't want to even say moralist. I, I would wanna say, uh, you know, the, the, the, the temple of human potential that, that we practice.  Well,  and you look, um,  you, you look at history and you look at the rise of, of, um, the fraternal society, uh, in, uh, the late 19th century and into the 20th century.

And you look at.  Uh, marketing and business coming out of that and how the idea of management and, and the idea of marketing and sales all, all comes out of these,  these guys that were advertising their, you know, media mystic services or whatever psychic book. And  so these were people that were invested.

Istic universalistic approach as, as I am because, you know, people of my interest used to get tied to a stick and set on fire. So we, we are interested in pluralism more for our  , for our own survival. And, and I know it's not as bad as that. There are some places in the world though, where it still is bad for that. 

And, and you know, the idea of. Of Pax Templi and the idea of, of, of tolerance forbearance even, uh, as, as spread by Freemasonry, you know, and the idea that political violence is anathema, we should not,  you know, that a civilized person doesn't allow for that sort of thing.  These are the messages that the craft spread. 

Far and wide and we're not the only vehicle for such messages, but we're certainly I I would say in hindsight maybe  the most successful vehicle for such ideas so much so that we've now  Lost our relevance in such circles and are now Almost anachronistic 

The, the,  the, the enlightenment eventually got, got outlived. Uh, uh, society changed dramatically in a, in a relatively short time and suddenly  everybody thought like we did. Gosh, doesn't that sound like a

and, and maybe we took it for grant, maybe we've taken it for granted as wider society has for so long,

Yeah. Yeah.

you know, and, uh, it would be, it would be glorious if those of us who are interested in such things would step out of the shadows and just speak up for these ideas again. Uh, as I know, I'm prepared to, um, you know, and, and that, uh, was thrilled with your advance again on, uh, Charvonia's book, uh, and, and that you were involved in that and, and his message in that is just such a thing. 

Um,  you've been covering, as we, we talked about in your, in your blog, you covered so many years, these, these, uh, attacks. On masonry and our and our buildings and our history. Um, and we had a bad attack here where somebody burnt down several of our buildings in 2021 in the middle of the pandemic.  Um, Brother Wes Regan will be talking about his research presented recently in the Philolaithes Society, uh, publication about the attacks on Masonic buildings.

Uh, can you, can you comment a bit about about that your coverage of that over the years and how things have changed? 

Um, yeah. Over the years, the, the blog, see the,  my blog really developed, it was, it was just a, a blatant commercial thought that I had when the book came out. Um, Of ways to say, you know, here it is, here's my great book. And, you know, hopefully it rises above the noise of the other great Masai books that are out there.

Well, let me rep you for a second. Cause I, I, I'm going to challenge you on that. Sure. It's a, it's a commercial endeavor, but then looking at it, I think there's more than 6, 000 posts here now.  So like commercial, a commercial endeavor that doesn't get, doesn't get, uh, you know, 18 years of attention and 6, 000 posts, nevermind the comments and links and whatever,

No, I, I

I'll allow you to continue.

Now

No, no, I get that. It, you know, it, it grew into the monster that it is today. Um, where I feel guilty if I don't post something every week. Uh, but, uh, uh,  but no, I, like I say, it started that way, but pretty quickly. Because I was, I was still, even at the time that I wrote it, I'd only been in the fraternity for five years at the time that I wrote that.

Um, and so, so back in those days, I was still excited about the fraternity.  Um, and, and so consequently, uh, uh, Google searches were just sort of coming into their own at that time. And so I started combing  the internet, looking for things to write about, uh, and so that I had something to post on a regular basis. 

And so anytime Freemasonry got mentioned on, on the web or in the press or something, I go, haha, something to write about. Well, pretty soon, these kinds of stories slowly start to trickle in of vandalism against lodges and, and, uh, attacks against Freemasons. And, and, you know, I mean, first time I heard of an attack in the street in Europe over somebody Uh, being a Mason, I couldn't believe what I was reading. 

I remember how many years ago it was. It was a grand master of the Grand Orient of France. And he came out of the building one night, a guy was, I think it was like a heart surgeon or something. And he came out of the building one night as he walks out, some woman comes running up screaming and hits him in the head with a hammer. 

Um, and I couldn't believe this kind of stuff was going on. Well, yes, it was. And it does. And it still does.  And so I started to decide, Yeah, it's really important. We need to start paying attention to this stuff and start correlating this stuff and recording this stuff and making sure  if something happens to your building or one of your members, um, You need to let the local police know that because we're not necessarily on the on the police radar.

We're not a, we're not a protected class. We're not a protected group. We don't show up in anti hate speech legislation.

And, and, and the reason we don't is because we're not an identifiable, uh, racial minority, and we're not a, a, a religion.

I'm not a religious

We won't self identify as a religion.

We're not a political party. You know, it's interesting, when you're asked to define what Freemasonry is, it generally winds up being everything that we aren't.

Right. It's easier to define the things that people are familiar with. 

And then the 15 year old kid looking at you, bewildered, says, Well, just what the hell are you? What do you do?

What do you guys do?  Um,

can't tell you, but we can show you.

yeah, I, yeah, I, you know, join and

Come back, come back in five years.

Yeah, that doesn't work. Yeah.  Um,  but at any rate, uh, but yeah, I, I mean, I, I, I felt it was important to do that. And, and suddenly during COVID, I guess with everybody trapped in their basement, staring into the computer all the live long day.

Um, it became sort of this, this percolator for, for online conspiracy theorists and, and,  uh, uh, people who, uh, uh, hate every other organization outside their personal sphere that they blame for all their problems in the world, uh,

We, we,

suddenly show up in a parking lot in Texas and, and, and shoot a Mason walking out of the, uh, out the front door.

you know, we've had guys here attacked with a hammer. Um, you know, and, and again, they weren't radicalized conspiracy theorists, but it was about tribalism, right? So, uh, and that, and that seems to be on the rise and  in the craft, we tend not to talk about  politics and religion very much. But over here, we're kind of got more free reign on this podcast to discuss such things.

Uh,  are, are,  here's a, here's a leading question. Um, I should probably ask it in a more open ended way. Are you concerned about  the rise of, uh, of, of new tribalism  and the us versus them,

no, I have been for a long time. Um,  and the us's and them's have changed over the years. Uh, I, I woke up one morning a couple of months ago to discover to my horror that I'm 65 years old. And so suddenly as I, as I glanced back over my shoulder, yeah, there've been all kinds of shifts in, in, in the others over the years as to who's on one side and who's on the other side. 

But yeah, the, the tribalism and, and, and the self segregation attitudes  just seem to be growing. By leaps and bounds, um, in, in ways that I couldn't have fathomed even 15 or 20 years ago.  Uh, I, I never would have believed that we would suddenly find ourselves reduced to people on college campuses demanding segregated housing again.

And, and, and, and the whole concept of a safe space, I find almost comical when it's, when it's used in terms of, I only want people like me in this safe space.  Well, well, we have a Masonic Lodge is a safe space. It's a safe space because it's supposed to be a sanctuary from all the crap going on in the outside world.

And I would rather have that kind of a safe space than, than  an echo chamber somewhere of everybody that look like me and talk like me and thought the same way.  On top of everything else. What a remarkably dull way to live.

Well, and, and you say echo chamber, and that's a term that most people five years ago had never considered or heard of, and how, with,  with the changes that have taken place in the media, the business media landscape. Now.  Uh, now this echo chamber idea is come to the fore, and  so many of us are relying on,  um, socialized media.

You know, everybody's been given a platform. It's a socialized platform. Everybody's got the same voice  for good or ill,  but there's nobody, there's nobody with their hand on the switch. So there's, you know, anybody could get on, uh, their podcast.  Um, the most popular podcasts on earth, in some cases, and just say whatever, and nobody's holding anybody accountable for whatever it is that they say, and there are people at the business end of those speakers that just take whatever those people are saying, authority or not, uh, to be gospel and will act on it.

You know, we had attacks on our buildings here. The guy was radicalized by listening to, uh, radical political programming, uh, and he was already not well. And so, you know, from what I understand, he just, he had to go burn down these satanic temples. And  that, that was us, you know, and, and that's,  if he had ever attended, bothered to talk to a Freemason or attend an event, he would have seen immediately, you know, and, and unless, unless you're the most,  radical, um, of, of religious practitioner, nothing goes on our lodge that's going to be considered satanic, you know,

No, of course not.

it's crazy.

Uh,

And I think most of us have commented on this at some point in our Masonic life, but it's amazing the knowledge that people have  that have never been in the Masonic

right.

never spoken to a Mason. Uh, and they know so much about us. All the things that none of us even know, uh, you know,  much, much less the absurdity of.

Uh, you know, my, my father was one, my grandfather was one, my great grandfather was one. Yeah, and they were all worshipping Satan in the basement, weren't they? Is that what you think of, of your family? Is that, is that exactly what you believe?

Well, and the, the thing that's most mystifying to me is, is, and I do run into this occasionally, that there are Freemasons that hold these ideas to also be true. And the cognitive dissonance to be like, you're involved with something, you know, that is.  religiously innocuous,  so to speak, uh, you know, and yet you ascribe to the rest of these conspiracy theories as true, you know, you're, you're out there espousing this thought. 

Um, and, and that, that really It boggles my mind that there are people,  uh, I had a run in with a guy online not that long ago who's well known  and was talking about how, you know, the idea of conspiracy theories is a, is a, is a plan by the left to just discredit everybody on the right. And I'm just like, uh, buddy, you know, we had buildings burnt down here.

You could, you could shut up and go away with that right now.

Yeah, I know.

And, uh, it, it, that kind of stuff, it makes me crazy because this is, it's all fine and good in the world of ideas, but when the world of ideas pollutes people to the point where they're ready to take radical action, like setting buildings on fire, you know, uh, and this is not uncommon, uh, it's more and more common and that's, again, I'd like to thank you for covering it for so long on your blog  and, and being willing to speak out about it because I think it's, um, it's something.

That people should address a lot of people believe also that even just coverage of this will just create more copycats and I just

Well, well, right, exactly. And I, and I've heard that criticism before of, you know, stop shining a light on this sort of thing. It only gives the, the wackos ideas. Well, they've already got those ideas.

yeah, there's and there's plenty of wackos

shortage, you think there's some shortage of, of, of, of people that it never occurred to them to go down and, and burn down the institution, whatever it is that the, you know, that there's, they've got a problem with that week.

Uh, you know, heck no. That's been going on a long time.  Um,  Molotov had a cocktail named after him for a reason. Um, uh, it's, uh,  yeah, it's, it's, it's,  We try and apply rational thinking to people that are not rational, yet we have to live in the world  populated by them. Um, so,  I don't know. 

Well, again, Brother Hoda, uh, really appreciate you agreeing to come and speak at Grammy Sonic Day. Again, that's May 25th. Check the show notes for a place to go get your tickets. Uh, it's the aft in the afternoon this year, Grammy Sonic Day. And, uh, as as Wes and I have discussed many times,  since the history of this particular event goes back, I think we could track it about 42 years.

We say it's the 42nd annual, but as I said to Wes the other day, we can call it the 75th annual and nobody's going to hold us to account

Well, sure, yeah, exactly. Just, just change the number around every year. You know, who's gonna,

This is the 289th,

that's exactly

brand new Sonic Day.

It is because you say it is.

It's because  I assert,  uh, that that is the case. 

Give it the imprimatur of authority. No, I have to say, and I told Wes this as well, Um, I believe, I'm pretty sure, it was about 2015  or so, that I was actually made the Grand Representative Of the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Ucomm near Indiana. Uh, I, I, I live in Indianapolis, Indiana, uh, in the us and, uh, and, and I was given that great honor by, uh, the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Ucomm and, um, uh, and, and I've never been there.

And, and so I feel terrible about that. Uh, and, and now, uh, now I have the opportunity to visit. So,

excellent.

So yeah,

we will welcome you, uh, with open arms. It'll be great to have you here.

I'll get to issue my report of what's been going on in Indiana for  15 years

And yeah, and you'll get to see that, you know, the couple of new buildings we have here. I'll take you past the site of the buildings that have been destroyed. And we can have further discussion about that. Um, no, I'm, I'm really looking forward to it.  All right. Uh, let's switch gears a bit. Uh, I don't know if you've covered this material in your books or in other podcasts, but, you know, just being remiss and not doing my research, I'm just going to ask you anyway, how did you get involved in Freemasonry? 

What drew you to our, uh, to our little fraternity? 

Uh, I, we, we brought, we, we touched on this before. I actually was raised a Roman Catholic and, um, I hadn't the slightest idea, never had any kind of a brush with Freemasonry whatsoever all my life.  And, uh, just before I turned 40 years old, I, uh, uh, my, uh, my father in law, um, lived down in Texas. Uh, he and his wife had been in Indianapolis all their lives.

And when they retired, they moved down to Texas and he was pretty well known here in Indianapolis. Um, the, uh, uh, the, the race Hold on just a second. Let me, let me do something. Alice.  Alice,  please stop doing that.  Don't run the water and clatter that stuff. 

Oh, and

All right.

the processing, the processing will take that

Okay. I know. I understand, but, but yeah, anyway, so let me start.

That's okay. We can start again.

All right.

lots of time to edit here.

I know, I understand. Okay.  In 1998, my father in law,  his name was Bob Funkannon, and he was pretty well known here in Indianapolis.  He volunteered every year to go out and be the chief track announcer at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway,  the Indianapolis 500 race. takes place every year in May, and he would take the entire month of May off so that he could be out there.

And anytime there was a car on the track, he was on the microphone announcing.  Um, but he and his wife retired. They moved down to Texas. He'd wanted to live in Texas all of his life, and he passed away in 1998.  Well,  we didn't know what to do. They had all kinds of friends here in Indiana. They had all kinds of friends down in Texas.

Uh, he and his wife were both very active in veterans of foreign wars and the American Legion and some other groups like that.  And he'd been a Mason. He'd been a Mason for over 50 years. He joined a lodge here in Indiana and he had just received his 50 year pin. Um, and, uh, but he never really attended a lodge down there.  So, my wife and I go down, we decide to have the funeral in Texas. And so, uh, later on a Sunday night, the funeral was going to be on a Monday. Later on a Sunday night, um, my wife says, Dad was a Mason, and I think they do some kind of a funeral service of some kind.  And I said, well, heck, I don't know. I don't know the first thing about the masons.

And so, uh, I pulled out the Dallas phone book, which in those days was about four inches thick, um, before they stopped publishing phone books. And, uh, I called every Masonic lodge I could find in Dallas. And I finally got a hold of a Lodge secretary working late, and, and I told him the situation. And he said, wow, this is awfully short notice, tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, I don't know if there's anything I can do.

He says, give me the information, let me see what I can find out. So, we didn't have a lot of hope.  So we go to the funeral parlor the next day, and nobody is there. There's, there's, uh, uh, uh, four of us from the family. There's, uh, two people, uh, uh, from, from the house where he was living, um, a couple of neighbors, and nobody else.

All those hundreds of friends down there, nobody came.  But ten Freemasons did. Ten Masons who didn't know him, never met him, uh, never sat in Lodge with him. Uh, didn't call the Grand Lodge of, uh, Texas to find out if it was okay to do that, didn't call the Grand Lodge of Indiana to find out if he was a paid member, didn't ask the family to go through his wallet and make sure he had a paid dues card before they could do anything.

They just knew that the family of a Mason had died and wanted their help.  And they put on a funeral service that was far more moving than anything the rent administered. said who kept mispronouncing his name. And  then they stood in the back of the room. And when we left, they said, Here's all of our names.

Here's our numbers. If anything comes up, we know you live in another state. Anything comes up that you need help with.  Let us know and, and, and, and we'll see if we can make that happen. And on the flight home the next day, I told my, I thought about it all night. And I said to my wife the next day, that's something I've got to be a part of.  Masons don't always realize. Where non Masons  get inspired to join. And, and Masonic funeral services are one of those places.

Yeah, we've, we've done quite a few of them. We've done two in the last couple of weeks and we've got one, maybe two more coming up in the next little while. And it's, we've had people approach us at every one of them, it seems.

it's, it's one of the most important things that, that, uh, that your lodge can do,  um, because it's truly affecting to people.  Um, And particularly in a situation like that, where somebody is very elderly, doesn't have a lot of friends. And suddenly this group of men who don't even know them show up to express their sorrow.

So, yeah. And so that was why I joined. Um,  and, uh, at the time, Indiana, like British Columbia and Yukon was one of the first grand lodges that had. an internet presence in those days, 1998, you know, not, not lots of web pages in those days yet. And, um, and so they had an online contact link on the website and, uh, I, uh, I got put in contact with a local lodge.  And it turned out to be a very struggling lodge. I didn't know that. I wasn't sure why I got sent there. Uh, it wasn't the closest one to me. Um, but, but they were in trouble. Uh, the year after I joined, they lost five officers out of the officers line. Um, and a grand representative showed up to the first meeting that I was allowed to, to be at, uh, wanting to know what the hell was wrong with this lodge and why the grandmaster shouldn't yank their charter.

It was like, wow, I've joined the wrong lodge. This is a disaster.

Yeah.

Turned out to be the greatest thing that happened because  they shoved me and a very good friend of mine who joined at the same time, Nathan Brindle, uh, shoved us into officer positions long before we ever should have been. I became master of the lodge two and a half years after I joined the fraternity.

Now today you'll tell that to people and they'll go, Oh yeah, that's what happened to me too. In those days, you'd get heart attacks from guys because it's like, Oh no, you have to take five years. At least gotta be seven years. At least you have to know every part. I was like, yeah, well, you know, do you realize that the boat is sinking and there's one lifeboat left and the band is starting to play for heaven's sake, I, you know, it's, we got to do something here.

Um, and, and, you know, here's this lodge. It doesn't have any, much of the way of resources. Doesn't have much in the way of money. Certainly doesn't have that many guys to call upon. And yet within about two and a half, three years, we completely turned it around and made it one of the top lodges in the States. 

Well, that's excellent.  It sounds like you, I don't want to say got lucky. You've made your own luck.  Um,  now, so it sounded like you had an excellent, uh, an excellent introduction to the crafter, at least. You know, you, you were,

turned out that way.

you, you were initiated into a lodge that you stuck with what, why did you, why did you stick with it?

It seems historically  from the numbers I've seen about a third  stick around in the long. Now there's probably lots of reasons for that, you know, guys move or they get attached to a lodge culture that's in that lodge. And then they don't find another lodge if that lodge collapses or decides to, to change in some way.

And, and, and listeners should know that. Each individual charter  might have, you know, less than 50 guys, some of the cases, less than 20 guys involved. And, and it's, it's really a, uh, the, the culture in each lodges is constructed by the members that participate.  They tend to be very, um, I don't want to say backwards, but they look backwards historically.

The, the, the craft really looks at tradition and holds up tradition and repetition in a way that you don't see in the outside world. It's not the same. And it's one of the things that attracts a lot of people and then people attracted to this sort of thing, uh, enjoy their history and their tradition and their ritual practices over and over. 

Um, so that said, you know, what, what kept you, what kept you in, especially through all this, um,  this, uh, this difficulty?

Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, one of the things you just said. Lodges have, frequently have these long, uh, uh, historic cultures of, this is the way we've always done it. And, um, uh, and so Thursday night is always going to be, Meatloaf and green beans and mashed potatoes. And that's just the way that it is period.

Um, and, and the difference was that culture wasn't coming around. Those people weren't participating anymore. I, you know, we had nights where, um, uh, you know, we had to forge. Signatures on the log book, just to say we had a quorum that night. Um,  and so, but we were, we basically got to start from scratch and, and do the things that we enjoyed doing.

Um, we had 200 members in the lodge,  but if only a dozen of us showed up, well, that's fine, a dozen of us got to have steak dinners, uh, you know, a dozen of us got to do the kind of things that we enjoy and,  And, and, and we were fortunate to have a couple of, uh, past masters. who were thrilled that we came in and wanted to do something different.

Uh, uh, my friend Nathan and I were very, very lucky because, uh, one of the members of the lodge, a guy named Roger Van Gordon, Roger became grandmaster in 2001 in Indiana. Roger has gone on to, to greater and greater things over the years.

Yeah. I read your article about him recently.

He, uh, I tell you, he's an amazing guy and he was one heck of a mentor.

And, and these, a lot of these ideas came out of him of stop obsessing on the numbers, make the lodge you enjoy coming to, because if you enjoy coming to it, somebody else is going to enjoy that too. 

Oh, that's,

and, and stop, stop trying to, to cling, uh, to something that, you know, in your heart, isn't going to work.  Um, and you know, I mean, one of the things we did, we, for an entire year, all of our meetings were held down in the, in the dining room. Uh, we arranged the tables like a lodge and we had a true table lodge.

that's cool. 

Uh, you know, call the, call the meeting to order open. Uh, and then put everything at ease. Go get your dinner, sit around the table, hash out the things that you want to vote on that way informally.

And, and say, everybody go get your, you know, go get a drink and, and, uh, and, uh, and your dessert and we're going to call the meeting back up and vote on this stuff  then go down the street to, you know, to a local watering hole and, and, and enjoy the rest of the evening. Um, and suddenly this great culture erupted out of that and we started getting more visitors.

Then our own members coming to meetings and going, wow, this, I'm actually enjoying this more than I've enjoyed my own lodge in years.

Are you, are you still active in your craft organization? 

I am, uh, we also in 2001,  we started, uh, an observance style lodge called Lodge Vitruvian. And, uh, it was one of the earliest types of  so called European concepts, slack, traditional observance. There've been a half a dozen labels attached to these kinds of lodges over the years. Um, um, and, and that was also meeting in our lodge building.

And so, uh, we were able to bounce ideas back and forth between those two lodges in the same building with several of the same people. Um, and so, you know, again, if, if your lodge just isn't doing it for you and you have an opportunity here. To truly make a difference and pick up the torch and lead, make it the lodge that you enjoy.  Stop beating your head against the wall trying to please people who aren't coming.

Right. Well, and that, we talk about it over here. Um, I, I will often ask, yes, I'm going to ask you this question now. You know what,  the guy's listening, and he's already approached the craft because he knows people, and he got initiated, but it wasn't for him. Uh, but he's moved three times, or he's moved to a different jurisdiction, or he's somewhere else. 

Um,  I always tell those brothers, you know, reach out to a local lodge and see if you fit there, you know, if you're in an urban, if you're in an urban center, and we're raising the lodge that you, you don't enjoy, or you have prevarication with some of the brethren there, go, go find another charter. Don't just turn your back on it completely.

You got a whole lifetime to do it.

yeah. And,

There's no rush in that.

and there's lots of other lodge cultures. You'll find one, you know, um,  when you visit. On the Friday night before the Grand Masonic Day, we're going to visit a lodge called Lodge Southern Cross. Now, it's the only Australian work lodge in this jurisdiction.  And Australian work is similar to the Canadian work, which is similar to English emulation work.

But, but there are variations. And, and that particular lodge has a very jovial, outgoing, friendly nature to it. And the festive board is something not to be missed.  And so, So we're going to go visit there the night before the Grammy Sonic Day. Um, and, and you'll get to see some of that. Um, but it's not, you know, if you're a Mason who wants, uh, meditation before your, uh, ritual, or if you want, uh, you know, the, these other types of observant things, that's not what they're doing at Lodge Southern Cross.

There are other lodges in the area that do that sort of thing. It's not them, you know, and, uh, so, uh, I would just encourage brethren within the sound of our voices, just, uh, give it another shot.  Not that we're, not that we're recruiting. 

is not a suicide pact. You know, I mean, there's,  there's no reason to force yourself to stay there. Keep paying dues at your home lodge. While you go and visit elsewhere,  um, visit as far and wide as you can, because the other thing that happens is.  If you have, uh, an opportunity to make changes in your own lodge,  I was in advertising for, for 25 years, and we used to say, where do great ideas come from?

Somebody else.  Um, and, and so if another lodge is doing fantastic programming or some practice that, that you just think is very cool,  steal it and claim it as your own, you know, incorporate it into your own lodge, make it the lodge you want it to be.

Oh, that's, uh, that's excellent advice.  Uh, I did notice on your bio, I didn't read your entire bio, but I, I did notice

Too long. Everything I do is too long. 

did notice in your bio that, um, that you've been quite active in Concordant bodies.  Uh, any, any comment about. You know, brethren that are thinking, I don't know where I want to go next.

You know, there might be a concordant body or not. Um,

That's just it. I, uh,  for whatever reason, I, uh, I got involved in, in the different concordant bodies over the years, frankly, pretty early on. Um, and no, I don't participate in all of them anymore. I keep my membership in, in many of them. Um, but, but I, I, again, as I've gotten older,  I've gotten more realistic about my division of time.

Uh, longest time, uh, my, my wife and I have together been together since high school, we're on our third bottle of Tabasco sauce. So, uh, you know, and so, but, uh, uh, she got sick and tired of me being gone four nights a

It's such a Midwest thing to say, because the West coast, you're thinking Tabasco sauce. I'm, I'm who even uses that anymore?

Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. So anyway, but, uh, uh, yeah, we used to, we used to joke, uh, back in high school, we were still dating. We, uh, uh, everybody, everybody in those days tried to be cool. So they did the old now Voyager thing of, uh, of, of after sex, you'd like two cigarettes and then give one of them to, you know, to your lady and, and, uh, uh, you know, pretend that you're, that you're, Paul Henry and, and, uh, and Petty Davis.

And so we, so we bought a pack of cigarettes so that we could smoke after sex and there's still six of them left in the pack. So, uh, yeah, 

uh, Any,

never hear, you'll never again, hear that joke on Masonic

that's the yes. Um,  but you know, uh, that's, I don't think it's, um, politically or religiously offensive, but we'll let it stand. Uh, yeah, thank you. Um,  any, any Masonic events or, um, things to look forward to, uh, for brother Christopher Hodak,

Oh, heck, I don't know. No, I I'm currently, uh, uh, wrapped up and, and, uh, uh, trying to make some, uh, uh, some improvements. Here at home in the, uh, in the Masonic Library Museum of Indiana, I'm one of the two directors of that, and, uh, it's in fact that if,  you can't see it, but in your radio mind's eye, behind me is a backdrop of Of the museum, as a matter of fact, and as Troy can attest, it's a magnificent looking thing too, but at any rate,  um, uh, yeah, so, so we're trying to improve that all the time.

And that's where my energies have been directed lately. 

Is it easy to find on the internet? 

It is, uh, uh, I think it's Masonic library.  org, uh, oh, Masonic library, Indiana. org, I think is what it is. If you go to, if you go to the Freemasons for dummies,  blog, you'll find over on the right hand side. If you're looking at it on a real computer screen and not a phone, there's all kinds of junk over on the right hand side with links to that kind of thing.

So.

Excellent. Well, I'll make sure to include that in the show notes.

Ah, okay. 

left a gap there. Uh, at, at this point in the podcast interview, I often let my interviewers turn into the interviewees turn into the interviewer. Do you, do you have any, do you have any questions for me that you'd like me to answer?  You might never have, you might never have heard of me before today,  which is just how I like it, because,

no, no, no.  The truth of the matter is, I'd never heard of you  until Wes mentioned you a couple of weeks ago.

well, that's good, because

So, uh, but at any rate, see, now I have to pimp your blog now that I know about 

uh, yeah, so we're, we're over here, um,  uh, with the Mystic Tie, and the idea is to create a space where we can get candid interviews with, uh, with Freemasons, where they talk about, you know, why they joined and why they stayed, and, uh,  generally about Masonic Culture. Uh, this is so many other, um, podcasts have a specific focus, right?

Whereas here, I just want, I want it more entertainment than anything else. I find that there's enough serious

So instead of focusing, you're more like a sugared up toddler on a sugar buzz, right?

yes.  It like a, uh, like a squirrel just from just from topic to topic.

I get that. I get that. 

we, we did, um,  we, we did cover a lot of material today and I do appreciate you being here. Uh,

One thing I will say, one thing, one thing that I did that I do want to acknowledge, um, I, I have to shout out to Trevor McCallum, um, and the incredible job of, of the website, uh, for British Columbia and UConn.  That site, even back now, this goes back to 2005 when I was writing the dummies book and it was already one of the top resources online at that time.

Um, and, and, uh, it, it does nothing but improve every year. And I don't know whether, uh, Mason's there take it for granted or not, but I hope they don't because you have a real treasure in, uh, In Trevor. And my understanding is he's going to be, uh, installed as master of, uh, Quattro Coronati Lodge of research in London.

Um, so that's, uh, that's an incredible honor for somebody who isn't from England. That doesn't happen very often.  So

he's pretty excited about it. And there's a bunch of us going and Trevor is that, um,  he introduces himself as an obscure free Mason of zero authority of no authority.  uh, he, he prefers, 

that's me too. I'd

he, he prefers like zero notoriety. So just us bringing him up and

well, that way you don't get suspended. So

Right. And he'll,  he'll be, he'll be all grumbly about it.

Um, and, uh, as we often will joke about it, you know, he, he started in the craft and, and has participated in the craft and, and built the website just as a place to keep his own research, you know, and now the Grand Lodge of British Columbia UConn website is one of the most cited Freemasonic websites on earth.

Uh, you know, it was just,  uh, uh, Trevor's pet project, you know, and,

That's okay. I'm glad

and grown.

I'll tell you what, the finest websites on any topic all over the internet are, are from  who zero in on one topic and, and, and decide to madly write it down on, uh,  on their website just so they don't lose the information they find and, and thank God they're out there. All

Yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, we we do appreciate trevor in this jurisdiction and again Uh, he hates the positive attention, but he's gonna get it   📍 So, uh, it'll be

right. I have to bring something embarrassing gift for him

No, that's excellent. Let's make a big deal about it when we're, when we're at grand Masonic day. Um, and, uh, and he'll be even more embarrassed.

That's excellent.  That's my favorite thing. Uh, thanks. Thanks again for being here, uh, brother Hoda, and we're really looking forward to hosting you here. Uh, again, it's, uh, your opportunity to meet. Chris Hodap and, uh, have him sign a book. You don't have to read the book, but you can certainly buy a book and have him sign it.

Uh, have them deface it so it, it improves the value of the

That's right.

as some people will say it, it's hang on to a rare, unsigned copy,

no, I don't know. Yeah. I'll tell you what, if you hang on to a signed copy from me for the next 20 years, it'll be worth full retail.

full retail. Wow.  Uh, and, uh, we, we hope to see you at Grand Masonic Day. That's May 25th, 2024 in, uh, Agnes Street Temple in New Westminster, British Columbia. Uh, thanks, uh, brother Christopher Hoda for being here today.

Thanks so much for having me. I enjoy being had. 

Thanks for listening today.  You can find us online@mysticty.com.  

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On our calendar now May 25th is Graham may Sonic day at Agnes street in new Westminster, British Columbia.  Also mark your calendars for September 27th to 29th. For esotericism and Freemasonry conference, 2024 in Seattle, Washington.  

Remember to sign up for our newsletter@mysticty.com to get notified of upcoming episodes and events.  Graphics and web hosting. Our by arts abode creative. A special, thanks to mocha only for our theme music.  And an extra special, thanks. For Chris holdup today.  For the enjoyable conversation.  



 

Happy to meet. 

Sorry. Depart.   And happy to meet again.