Experts on True Crime, But Not Our Instincts

We explore what draws us to true crime, how our instincts and survival responses are activated, and why at times we doubt our instincts in situations. 

Transcript

Marissa: Welcome to the Silver Linings Podcast. I'm Marissa Whitaker. I work with students discussing the relationship between substance use and their well being.

Jen: And I'm Jen Talarico. I'm a senior mental health counselor. We work in Conley counseling and this, and we are passionate about understanding the human condition.

Marissa: Sometimes life can be tough. This podcast acknowledges life's complexities by using an optimistic and humorous approach. In this episode, there's a mention of the body's response to sexual violence. Please skip from eleven minutes and 40 seconds to 13 minutes and 25 seconds to modify your listening experience.

Jen: If you're like us, your self care relaxation at night might include watching TV shows, reading books, or listening to podcasts that focus on true crime or similar topics. In today's episode, we're going to explore what draws us to these topics, how our instincts and survival responses are activated, and why at times we doubt our instincts in situations.

Jen: So diving into why we're drawn to true crime again, I think a lot of us do this. I know I do this. Marissa, I know you've identified doing this, falling asleep to true crime at night. So whether know TV shows such as Law and Order SVU or snapped Southern Fried Homicide, but yeah, I think the majority, if you look at a lot of our television dramas at night, there's some element of crime, stress, trauma, assault, murder one of those topics, right? That tends to be where our entertainment as a culture is lately. So diving into maybe some of the reasons why this becomes entertainment, it might come down to the fact that sometimes we look at the narrative of a normal human experience or story. So I'm thinking this is a little bit different from horror movies where there's aliens or dolls coming alive or ghost where we can actually relate to a human story. So, for example, partners Snap watching Snapped, right? I think sometimes we've been there where we've gotten really upset and we can just relate and understand maybe where that person went with us. And sometimes, also, I think we have a fascination into the dark minds of things that we can't understand, such as serial killers or psychopaths. It's just interesting. So there's this narrative of someone does something bad. Maybe there's mystery and clues that are followed on the show that we're kind of following along with on our own at home, like our own detective work. And then hopefully there's justice served. I think that might provide us with a sense of control when bad things happen. And relief, maybe, that we're not actually living these situations, but we're able to be a part of that justice at the end, in a sense.

Jen: And then we have that feeling of disappointment when justice isn't served, or realizing sometimes that the good doesn't always win. As you're talking about this, I was thinking of the show Dexter when that first came out, and it really kind of set the narrative for allowing people to maybe connect with some of the darker parts of their own. Psyche that we're not really allowed to talk about with that sense of justice that his dark passenger is going to cause. Justice for someone who's been wronged. But we don't act on these dark thoughts. We're not thinking of murder or serious harm to others, or at least I hope that we're not doing that. I remember watching Dexter in one of the first episodes. It was talking about just, like, feeling empty and dark, and I remember identifying with that, and then I'm like, you also cried during the plot of someone telling me what Marley and me was about. So how dark really is that going?

Jen: I loved Dexter, and I had such a crush on Dexter. And I remember at the know, I was like, no, but he's really a vigilante and he's good, and he's only killing bad guys and being so confused over what am I looking for in relationships and qualities and other. But I think what you said resonates too, because I've had a lot of clients and counseling over the year where we talk about intrusive thoughts, right. And I think that we don't normalize this enough, that we all experience this, that thoughts that we're not proud of and we might actually be horrified by. But that's the point, is that we're horrified by them and we wouldn't act on them. So I think there's that normalization maybe with some of those first person shows of, like, wow, sometimes we have intrusive thoughts. It's part of the human experience, animal experience. But then, yeah, we aren't acting on them is what hopefully can alleviate in some of us that concern of, like, whoa, why am I liking this?

Jen: Yeah, and you nailed it, too, acting on this. He's an actor. He also played a gay mortuary scientist and a funeral director. So this is just a person playing a role. It's not vigilante justice.

Jen: But I think as interesting as all of this is, there is obviously the other side to these stories. So, like I said, sometimes that feeling of being disturbed by this, I think we also sometimes think about, wow, am I watching entertainment at the expense of others trauma or grief? I think this is also human nature in a historical pastime sense. Right. I think about watching the Roman Coliseum back in the day for entertainment. This is what they went and did back as old as time for humans to be fascinated with life, with death, with morality. I think we've had this instinctual desire to have that detective like sense and maybe make sense of things that we don't understand and solve those things to make sense of it in our brain for probably having a sense of control over life. Right. We're humans by nature. We want to put the puzzles together. So we want to just make sense and try to understand why things are happening. The way they are.

Jen: Yeah. And I'm glad you bring up that entertainment piece. And I've been really guilty of doing this, too, that sometimes we get caught in that true crime loop. Oh, did you hear about this? Did you hear about that? That we often forget that there are actual people associated with these instances. There's actual trauma and experiences that are attached to it. I remember watching the TV show, I survive all the episodes, and there was one where a woman who was clearly not ready to relive some of this trauma, she was not in a good place. And for some reason, after years of watching this at the expense of what we love watching these shows, but somebody has to relive the worst thing that ever happened to them, essentially for our entertainment. And sometimes that doesn't sit right with me as a lover of true crime, that there are experiences that people have that are attached with this be mindful as we listen and watch these shows, too.

Jen: Absolutely. And it can elicit that in us. Sometimes I think if you yourself have been victims to something or someone you love and care about, you might be watching one of these, and then all of a sudden, it's really triggering. Or maybe since I've become a mom, watching something with children has been really difficult. If there's a child involved in one of these stories, or my own worst nightmare if I'm watching one where someone's trapped in a box and they're stuck in the dark, that Alyssa. I'll have to turn the channel. So I think it's interesting and knowing also when it's not entertainment and it becomes triggering or upsetting, turn the channel, do some self care. Right? I mean, this is a whole separate we could go a different direction with this, but knowing it can easily switch and to be mindful of that and listen to your body and be aware of what that means for you. So again, with that idea of we want to put puzzle pieces together, we want to make sense of things, but also thinking, what do we learn from these? So I'll say personally, after watching a lot of Law and Order back in the day, I don't leave my house at night without looking for the shadows. I don't hop in my car without checking the backseat, making sure no one's there. Yes, don't drive behind a car with a bunch of wood on it. For that same reason, the way trauma sits in our brain, sometimes we recall these memories, our survival instincts. As a human, our body is like, hey, remember, A can lead to B, so watch out. I think, too, where it's also taught us that, again, the horror movie, we know what we're sitting down to watch. We kind of know, like, okay, this doll is going to come to life, whatever. But coming back to more real life, a super nice looking stranger with a broken arm that wants help putting something in the backseat of their car. I think we've learned like this could be dangerous too. Right? So I think that our senses are being raised at a time like that because of past experiences, whether they've been learned, experiences we've been through, or even witnessing. I think the good in some of this too, besides entertainment, is that maybe we're feeling as prepared as we can if we ever are put in these situations. And now we know what's my body trying to tell me if my hair on my arm is being raised. Let me take a second and see where that's coming from.

Jen: Yeah. And that's a really good segue into how our instincts for survival are activated. Typically, maybe we've all heard of fight, flight or freeze. This is part of our DNA makeup. So this started going back all the way to cavemen, learning how to survive when a perceived threat was there. This might contribute to now how we have some more of these psychological fears versus purely physical. It was initially fight or flight going back to the early 20s when this term was officially coined as an automatic stress response, where our hormones, epinephrine and adrenaline are released. When we're in a situation that feels that we're not able to cope or survive in a safe manner, essentially our body was telling us how to respond.

Jen: Right. So fight was really when you're facing any perceived threat aggressively. So what that might look like is your body might tighten. So if you look down, you might actually be holding fist. There might be feelings of anger or rage going through your body. You might feel rooted in place. So actually, your feet might be positioned firmly on the ground, almost like you're preparing for a battle. So if you can envision yourself in that fighter boxer pose, you might be grabbing a weapon, whether that's waking up in the middle of the night, you hear a noise, you grab a baseball bat, or you grab something that might be just an automatic thing your body does in that moment an upset stomach. Right. Your body's kind of all those nerves and adrenalines, like you said, are going through your system or even just attacking someone physically. Right. The actual fight response is you might be lunging at someone to save yourself. Right. This is a survival response versus flight on the other end, which would be, instead of facing that threat aggressively, running away from the threat, running away from danger. So this might feel like restlessness going through your body or fidgeting dilated or racing eyes kind of scanning around, thinking, where can I flee to? Versus that fight where you're really zoned in body response of releasing any excess weight to flee. Maybe some of you have experienced this with high anxiety where you're having bathroom issues. Right. We're not glamorous to talk about, but.

Jen: We'Re not here for me.

Jen: But really, it's so interesting that what our body is doing in that moment is it's thinking, if I'm going to flee, I want to be as light as possible so I can run as quickly and far as possible? So this is where it wants to get rid of any fluid or food. Whatever it can get rid of, it wants to do. So again. If you ever experience that when you're, like Marissa said earlier, in a perceived threat, it doesn't mean you have to have a saber tooth tiger looking at you, right? This could be whatever is high anxiety producing that feels like a threat to us. You might experience that. So then freeze came into the picture. So freeze. This third option is when just so that it sounds like you're literally unable to move or act against a threat. So in that moment, your automatic response by your brain is not to flee. It's not to fight. It is just to freeze in place, followed by an internal sense of dread, feeling numb, feeling again, literally like you're paralyzed. Really loud heartbeat. I've experienced this at night where I'm laying in bed and I think, oh, my gosh, what was that sound? Is someone in the house? And all of a sudden I'm like, my breathing is so loud. My heart is so loud. They're going to hear it, which they probably can't.

Jen: And there's no one in your house.

Jen: Well, yeah, right. And then your heart rate will actually decrease, which causes that issue with the loud heartbeat, the trouble breathing. So it's just really interesting understanding physiologically, why are these things happening when our instincts are activated?

Jen: And sometimes we don't always respond in the way that we think. I'm thinking in particular, you hear when people may have been sexually assaulted, that they froze, and it's like, well, why didn't you fight back? Or why didn't you run? Why didn't you XYZ? Sometimes the body just goes into survival mode, and the only way that someone's body recognizes survival is to freeze because it's just thinking about your safety. So to explain a little bit as to why this happens internally, our bodies are going to override those thoughts. The reaction starts in the amygdala, the section of your brain that's responsible for fear. And then the amygdala sends those transmitting signals to the hypothalamus, which will stimulate that fight, flight or freeze response.

Jen: Going along with what you said, I think, yeah, if I get in that situation, I'm going to fight, I'm going to scream. And you're absolutely right that our nervous system is going to decide that for us, right, for better or for worse. So when we're in that position, our brain, unfortunately, like you were saying, Marissa, it might feel like a betrayal of our own body. Right. But sometimes our know it thinks that, okay, I can unfortunately freeze, and I can get through this assault or I can get through this robbery to survive. Not that those things are pleasant. We don't want to experience those. But our brain in that moment might be thinking that if we fight back, we are more likely to die. So again, when people question I responded this way, why did they respond that way? You have different brains, different bodies, different life experiences that have all led to that moment. And even the same person a few days later based on how the brain will respond in that moment might respond differently. So this is why be self, compassionate, be compassionate of others is very complicated system. But it happens for a reason. Our brain is trying to protect us in that moment.

Jen: It's also really easy to judge when we're sitting on our couch eating doritos like, oh, I would have run. You're not even going to confront your roommate about doing the dishes. So let's hold off on our judgment about who we're confronting in these situations. So again, it's easy to think something when we feel safe, when you're in that moment so many ways we can react.

Jen: I had a time when I was senior in high school with one of my best friends at my house, new Year's Eve, hanging out. And I truly did have someone trying to break into my house. But we heard some noise around the windows and just talked it off, right? Must have been the wind. Thought we heard the door handle. Must be crazy. A window had been kicked in and we saw someone was trying to get in the house. Ran by the front door like a horror movie, right? How many times have I yelled at them before?

Jen: We didn't go into a room and shut the door.

Jen: We did. We ran to my bedroom at the end of the house, locked the door, called my mom mom, right? How many of us just go to our guardian? What do I do? It was like hang up and call 911, right? Ended up being okay. Obviously survived. But it was just so interesting. How I reacted in that moment was a way I never thought I would, especially after everything I have watched, I thought would have told me to do something different. But that's just instinctually. What happened?

Jen: Yeah. Holy cow. Holy cow. That is so scary. But I think we're all guilty of doing this. There are times that we don't trust our instincts. Why is that?

Jen: It's a great question. And I think for everyone listening too, maybe even pausing for a second to think about that. Have you had those moments where there's been a knock at the door? Maybe where someone's there or you're walking outside and you hear a noise? Or just a time where you talked yourself out of it or didn't follow through on what your instincts were trying to get you to do in that moment? I wonder if that comes down to maybe feeling guilty and doubting ourselves, not wanting to make someone else feel bad or look bad walking down the street at night. Maybe my senses are going up like someone's following me a little bit and getting closer. But I don't want to make them feel bad by walking faster because I don't want them to think I'm accusing them of trying to attack me or rob me, which is kind of silly, right, that I'm going to doubt myself in a possibly dangerous situation because a perfect stranger. I don't want to make them feel bad.

Jen: Yeah. And think about your safety.

Marissa: But we don't.

Jen: I mean, we think about being polite, not offending. We are also the only species who will talk ourselves out of physical fear even after we've experienced that fear response. Just what you said, you ran and shut the door. We had an incident once that someone was pounding on our apartment door at like three in the morning and my girlfriend was like, let's call 911. And I'm like, no, they probably just have the wrong apartment. And while she was worried about calling 911, I was having one of those stomach responses and we'll just leave it at that. But it's something we laugh about now. But we talked ourselves out of it and I talked her out of something that that is exactly what 911 is there for. So if you do feel a threat to your safety, call for help.

Jen: Absolutely. Going along with what you just said about how we're the only species that talks ourselves out of it, there's a really good book called Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. And basically it talks about how animals react instinctively when they have a physical threat upon them. Right? So there's a predator coming, they flee, obviously, or they fake dead, whatever it is that they've learned instinctually to get through a predator attack versus, as we talked a little bit about earlier, when it comes to humans, there is more of a psychological response that animals don't experience. So animals will tend to experience that level of stress response short lived too. So again, when they flee from that danger, phew, okay, I'm good, I'm done. I can kind of go back to my normal living where for us, for humans, it can be more chronic and daily for a variety of reasons. Again, we briefly mentioned anxiety and maybe phobias, that kind of thing, which would be a whole nother podcast. We won't go into that today. But that fight or flight might feel activated for someone much, much more chronically than, for example, a zebra. So hence the title. Why zebras don't get ulcers? They don't go through the physical and psychological stress that we go through as humans. Zebras probably aren't up at night having panic attacks about doing presentations or social media posts, right? We're kind of laughing about it, but it's really true. If we think about on an average day, what stresses us out and is this a unique human experience?

Jen: So where's this silver lining now that we've probably scared you into not leaving your residence hall or apartment. Sometimes our gut isn't always right. Our gut instinct, our intuition comes from our knowledge and past experiences. So it might not always be super accurate. We should never ignore them, but we should absolutely tune in and explore them.

Jen: Stress is going to be an unavoidable part of life, and at times it can be helpful, as we've discussed a little bit. It can give us insight and awareness that something's wrong, either emotionally or physically right. If your body is responding to something, listen to it. Understanding our triggers, understanding our stress responses, is really going to help us learn to be healthier and have more effective coping skills in life and ultimately happier lifestyles. And maybe our love and interest in true crime will subconsciously help us prepare for any real or perceived real life situation where our instincts are trying to tell us something.

Jen: So go out there and trust your instincts.