Technology and wine are well on the way toward an entirely new era. The DRINKS.com Podcast launches with an in-depth chat with our esteemed guest, Jessica Kogan, the Chief Growth and Experience Officer of Vintage Wine Estates and the founder of Cameron Hughes Wine. Jessica is at the forefront of blending tech with tradition, leveraging AI and other technologies to better connect with customers.
From the vineyards to the glass, the journey of wine is changing dramatically. The heavily regulated US alcohol market has found an ally in technology and Jessica shares fascinating insights on how the sands of the marketplace are going through a fundamental shift. She delves into how the pandemic has influenced retail partners to adopt technology, and also discusses the role of Gen Z and millennials in shaping the wine industry.
Reshape your ideas about what is possible in the world wine. Pour yourself a glass and join us in this exploration of technology's influence on the alcohol industry.
Technology and wine are well on the way toward an entirely new era. The DRINKS.com Podcast launches with an in-depth chat with our esteemed guest, Jessica Kogan, the Chief Growth and Experience Officer of Vintage Wine Estates and the founder of Cameron Hughes Wine. Jessica is at the forefront of blending tech with tradition, leveraging AI and other technologies to better connect with customers.
From the vineyards to the glass, the journey of wine is changing dramatically. The heavily regulated US alcohol market has found an ally in technology and Jessica shares fascinating insights on how the sands of the marketplace are going through a fundamental shift. She delves into how the pandemic has influenced retail partners to adopt technology, and also discusses the role of Gen Z and millennials in shaping the wine industry.
Reshape your ideas about what is possible in the world wine. Pour yourself a glass and join us in this exploration of technology's influence on the alcohol industry.
Hey everyone, thank you for listening to the drinkscom podcast the business of online alcohol. I'm your host, brandon Amoroso, and today I'm talking with vintage wine estates chief growth officer and the founder of Cameron Hughes Wine, jessica Cogan. Thanks for coming on the show today.
Jessica Kogan:Thanks for having me.
Brandon Amoroso:So before we dive into things here, can you give everybody just sort of a quick background and history on your story?
Jessica Kogan:Oh sure. So let's see, I came to the wine industry probably when you were in elementary school. I've been in this business for quite some time. I started or co-founded what was, at one time, the largest digitally native wine business called Cameron Hughes Wine, and I did that for quite a few years. The company was acquired by Vintage Wine Estates, which is a large wine holding company in 2017. And in 2017, started to oversee all of vintage's direct to consumer business. Did that for a while, both as their chief digital officer and chief market officer, took a quick pause away from the business, came back as their chief growth and experience officer, which feels more reflective of kind of also the evolution of like my interests and my work. So, yeah, it's been a great ride.
Brandon Amoroso:How would you explain, like your current role to somebody who isn't as intimately familiar with the side of the business?
Jessica Kogan:Sure, so it's actually really so. There's in the industry that I was like, basically like growth that I grew up in, the vertical experience I grew up in, is really in marketing and our end point was always the chief market officer. But with technology and the influence of technology and marketing, things have really changed and as a marketer, our role really in so many ways is is about influence and influence around the narrative of the conversation, influence around the communication of the brand, influence around customer experience, and so a chief growth and experience officer is really super focused on really working with all of the business units within an organization to really take to heart and put forth brand meaning and brand value in all the work they do. So whatever software systems they use, it really is a reflection of the brand of the company. We want things to be easy, we want to empower employees, we want vendors to have a great relationship with us. So that's one aspect and that's the experience component, both internal and external.
Jessica Kogan:The consumer how is the consumer engaging with our digital products? What is it that they like? How are we improving their journey, etc. Growth is really a function of technology right? So when we do things right, when we are applying good digital usability principles within the organization and outside the organization, we actually create new spaces of growth and new channels of growth, new areas of creating revenue and specifically in the adult beverage industry. That's really what we're seeing at retail in their kind of digital, their own digital transformations from seeing themselves only as a physical entity into a digital physical entity.
Brandon Amoroso:Got it, got it. That makes sense. What would you say is like your favorite thing about your current role and what you're working on right?
Jessica Kogan:now my favorite part of what I get to do is really be on the leading edge of what is going on in terms of the application of technology in all that we do now outside of production, right Outside of winemaking, but really both in advertising and in internal portal systems, external customer sites relationships and kind of publishing relationships and gosh. I mean there's just like so many, so many awesome things that I get to be involved in that are just like kind of next level Like I get to do metaverse work. I get to really touch everything. Obviously, the hot topic is AI. I get to touch that. I mean, every part of technology is something that I really get to touch and think about and present to our company and really lay out the roadmap for what the future might look like.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah, I mean, I think technology can really restrict and inhibit a brand's growth if you're set up with the wrong tools. And I think, at least from sort of the outside, looking in the in-person experience that I get when I go to, let's say, like a Napa winery like the tasting room, everything that goes on, it's really done it like a high level, it's very well thought through and it's just, at least from my opinion, really hard to emulate that online. At least right now I'm not going to get anywhere near the same experience going to a winery website as I would if I actually went in person. I think part of that is due to some like historical limitations around technology.
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, I mean, I think it's historical limitations around technology, but it's also ownership of the brand, right? I mean, traditionally the ownership of the brand has lived in wholesale and has lived really in the wholesale function, and so the approach is a much more static approach than a dynamic approach. You know they're thinking about a label that is going to be sold and not really receive any feedback to like six or seven months later. So it's less. I think it's just again, it's a function of kind of where brand grew up, in, which is in wholesale, and where digital is, which is really is a, is a is a function of brand but becoming a more powerful voice piece of brand.
Brandon Amoroso:Where do you think you mentioned AI, like how do you see that impacting vintage and really just the alcohol industry as a whole? Are there a couple of things that you're like this is something that can be implemented or this could potentially be revolutionary in this particular category?
Jessica Kogan:I mean I don't know. I mean there's so many things it can do, but like in simple, like for simple tactical stuff. I mean Chachi BT could write wine notes.
Brandon Amoroso:I mean it?
Jessica Kogan:can? It can write, you know, technical winemaker notes. It can write, brand stories it can write I mean, it can pretty much do everything that we do. Just set a little bit like slightly off versus how we may say it ourselves, and that's like pretty insane. Like really really, really, really insane. So I think that you know it's going to. It's really interesting to see what's going to happen. I think I walk with caution with AI at the same time. At the same time, it sincerely excites me.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah yeah, the wine notes is one for sure. I think we have like our label generator on the drink side and I was thinking through like well, why not just be able to type a prompt and like it'll spit back out a label based off of you want to get these certain characteristics and whatever it may be?
Jessica Kogan:Yeah.
Brandon Amoroso:And.
Jessica Kogan:I think there's, and did it work? Did you try it?
Brandon Amoroso:So I mean, we'll have to consult with the data science team. I think they're in the early sort of workings of that but that's where, like, my head goes to like an end product, like it'd be great if you could, because right now, not to get sidetracked, but it feels like a lot of label creation is done based off of not necessarily like hard data, backed evidence. It's more so.
Jessica Kogan:I like this name. It's a great name they even have to my dog. Yeah, I love my dog.
Brandon Amoroso:Exactly so. I think that, versus being able to say I'm trying to appeal to this particular target, I'm trying to enter into these specific, like geographic regions, like why there's so many things that we're we still do, that a computer would be better off telling us, and I think that would be one of them. Like you need to like here's a couple of different variations, and then maybe we go ahead and find, tweak it, like getting it to that point where we want to label, to evoke like love and family or something, and then we want it to appeal to 44 to 55 or whatever it may be, and I think that is where we're headed with with a lot of things, and then it sort of bypasses a lot of the initial, like grunt work, and then it allows us to be more creative and then like, take whatever's generated by these tools and then like leverage that moving forward.
Jessica Kogan:But I mean there's. I absolutely see that as a possibility. I mean I was to see it as a possibility of you know doing the first blends, you know, if there's so much it can do, yeah.
Brandon Amoroso:And then there's scary stuff too, like I don't know if you saw recently in the news the. There was like a like the AI basically turned against its human operator. It was like a. It was like a US military test and the AI in this simulation removed the human operator from the equation because it was getting in the way of its like end goal. And I'm like this is some what's the movie, this is like some Terminator, whatever style stuff.
Jessica Kogan:It's a little bit scary too, Totally. I mean, Steven Spielberg had that movie. I think it was called AI or artificial intelligence, and then have you ever seen the movie Gadica? Oh it's a good one.
Brandon Amoroso:I don't think so.
Jessica Kogan:You should.
Brandon Amoroso:We'll look it up. Should be on your list, gadica, I'll add it.
Jessica Kogan:I'm a movie movie junkie, so I'll add it to the, to the, to the purple on here. Oh, you'll love it, you're going to love it, and now it's time to go everywhere.
Brandon Amoroso:So, touching on and expanding on AI a little bit, you're overseeing really the digital sort of experience, for I mean, how many brands are there now at VDWE? Over two dozen at least.
Jessica Kogan:There are currently about I think about 32 brands. Okay, there are. You know, it's divided between estate brands, lifestyle brands and digitally native brands.
Brandon Amoroso:How do you think of having unique sort of digital experiences for each property but then also still being able to have efficiencies with having 32 different brands?
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, I mean obviously you know each site should be unique in story and in design to the feeling and function and taste of the brand or of the wine. But in checkout I mean, which is really you know, you want your checkout to be frictionless, easy and simple, and so ultimately the hope is that in your back office and in your display all of that information is kind of replicable across your brands and brand sites. So it's a cart that changes but not, or it's a cart that's the same and it's the sites that look totally different.
Brandon Amoroso:Got it. I think it's probably some great overlap with the tech stack, I would assume, in terms of being able to leverage yeah.
Jessica Kogan:I mean there's, you have to. I mean it's, you know it's definitely multi-tenant, multi-channel approach, Just in terms of like being able to, you know, curate, design, develop and manage so many sites at the same time. So the ability, like there isn't one perfect system out there so you always have to be open to kind of adopting, you know, like a little bit of the Frankenstein approach, but like your base platform really should have the flexibility to allow you to adopt in, you know, modules or integrations that are very easy or straightforward.
Brandon Amoroso:I mean, I think you've spoken before about just alcohol industry software kind of lagging behind other industries, and why do you think that is?
Jessica Kogan:I mean first and foremost because of the industry. You know the rules of play. You know selling direct to consumer in the adult beverage industry industry is not the same as selling soap or clothing or shoes to people, to consumers. In the US, you know there are lots of we're heavily regulated business, we have a lot of compliance and every state is like a different state within a state. And so you know the adult beverage industry really looks at the world as 50 different states, not at, or 50 different countries and 50 different channels. It doesn't see it as one country.
Jessica Kogan:So that that made it very prohibitive and costly to get in a and then B once you navigated past the rules. Each state in their ability to support direct to consumer business or desire or lack of desire, puts limits and regulations on what consumers can and can't have, and so you have to be able to, you know, comply and regulate against those, those needs by state. And so it's just, it's just not easy, it's not a straight, it's not a straight shot, and a lot of people in the industry were raised to not really go against the grain. We're raised to not upset the apple cart, which is controlled primarily by distributors.
Brandon Amoroso:So I think. I mean you see, I think it was a earlier last week, I think Bev got acquired by CBI. I want to say which one? Oh yeah.
Brandon Amoroso:I think Bev got acquired by CVI and then. But I want to use them as an example of and but correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like 10 years ago there weren't really any like Bev's or Nomadica or like some of these, some of these wine companies that are almost taking an approach of like a digitally native like coffee company or digitally native like shoe brand. Do you think that has helped accelerate things a little bit in terms of the progress being made around like alcohol industry technology and how people think about like online?
Jessica Kogan:Well, I mean, I think you know COVID really changed the game for for for the industry, and that they saw their retail partners embrace technology in a way that they had never had, and so it really kind of pulled the industry in a direction that they realized that they have to go in. And, quite frankly, it wasn't the suppliers, like CVI, that were against investing in technology and and doing direct to consumer or digitally native businesses. It was really their wholesale partners that really weren't game for it, and now they are, and so that has made all the difference in my mind and so, yes, I think it's. It's been a limitation of general investment in the industry and technology because the belief was that it wasn't possible and now that the belief it is possible, we're seeing like lots of investment in technology, lots of investment in companies that have already proven themselves digitally and have a decent tech stack, so makes total sense.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah, it feels like retailers, grocery stores.
Jessica Kogan:there's a lot more investment going into Billions billions Into the online experience there was a great McKinsey report that came out last year that you know basically talked about how transformative technology consumer facing technology is going to be for grocery for the next 10 years and that they expect by 2025 or that 20% of the US public will be purchasing their groceries online. Like, what does that mean? Online? It can mean that they are buying it by Instacart. It can mean that they are buying it on safrecom and doing selecting curbside pickup. It can mean that they are buying it on Drizly and they're doing just their alcohol. It can mean that they are buying on Walmartcom and they're having a ship to them. I mean, there's just so many applications and then when you add it all up, it's just it's pretty insane. I mean I would say, if you talk to people three years ago like maybe one in 50 or 100 people had used like a third party app to order their groceries or had gone to an actual website of a grocery store.
Jessica Kogan:Now it's like commonplace.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah, I've. I mean I'd say half the time in the grocery store. It's like more people shopping for other. People Like to get the orders ready for groups. I pick up for some like delivery service. Then it is people actually shopping for themselves.
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, I mean there's. It is a huge disruption. And the one thing that they found in this report and it is true, it is, it is way it is, it has actually proven out is that when customers buy their carts online, they spend more. They just spend more.
Brandon Amoroso:I was just thinking through. That probably makes sense and I would prefer to shop online because I don't know, it's not a scattered like. You have your online shelf, which is a lot easier to navigate than, like, going through the store. I mean, every store I go into is like, okay, well, which aisle is their X product in or Y product in? And then I always end up leaving and getting home and I'm like, oh my God, like I can't believe I forgot whatever it was that I really needed that I completely forgot about and then also ended up with a bunch of stuff that I didn't actually need. And plus, it's so much easier to leverage like AI and technology in that online experience to provide personalized recommendations and things like that then you're able to like in store.
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, I mean, I think there's. I think, like I'm a big proponent of the digital to physical and physical to digital, like I think digital is only as strong as the physical and physical is only as strong as the digital. So my belief is that there are people like you who are like I am like going and I'm so like my shit's ever excuse my language my stuff's everywhere, like I can't figure it out. It's so much easier for me to just go into the app or you know, into the Safewaycom app and and just like go at my last, look at my last grocery bag, figure out what I got, and then like open myself to like whatever specials there are.
Jessica Kogan:But then there are people who go in store and you know they, they like the, they like the experience of touching and browsing and seeing. But they also want to know that while they're doing that, that there's like some validation, digital validation, there in the store and they're like checking out a product and they're checking the price and they get, they're taken back to the Safeway website I'm just picking on Safeway right now and they can see that the price is consistent. They can see that there's consistent. You know, good digital shelf hygiene like good information. You know it's. It's not like this, abandoned, like land of nothing. So I think that it goes both ways and I I believe that, while the the digital shelf will continually improve, the physical shelf is going to continually improve, because customers are always looking for a reason to get out, especially when they have young children.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah, I don't have young children yet, but the I don't. I don't buy anything without Googling it beforehand, I mean, unless it's like food per se, but, like in the store, especially with wine, I'm always looking it up online, especially if the price is above a certain threshold, yeah, so in a way I'm just sort of blindly selecting it and maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I'm not trusting the person in stores recommendations at face value. I'm I'm verifying online through whatever sort of review sources or other channels that are available to me.
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessica Kogan:I mean I think that's a good thing to do. But I will say, like, what I find particularly interesting about the wine industry not, not, not spirits, not beer but reviews that are written by customers are some of the most interesting reviews because and I think that there are some of the most like honest reviews, because people really write like they're really trying to write what it is that they're tasting, whereas like a corollary corollary for a discretionary item might be like a watch or something or a piece of clothing that is expensive and customers write about it and they're like, oh, it fit really well or, you know, really like the way it looked. But really the thing that I think is so interesting that digital has like opened up and democratized to all us wine drinkers is that it really isn't just the spectator, it really is like all of these individual consumers who are have palates and, you know, points of view, and I actually find that I understand customers who speak in like very simple language about wine that I do about like the more complicated cork dork stuff.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah, I mean some of those reviews I see, and I'm like this sounds really cool, but I don't actually know what half of these words mean. Yeah, or just like is this good or is it bad?
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, okay.
Brandon Amoroso:And then it tastes like something that everybody knows, not some like very obscure fruit that you only find in this particular region of a certain country. Yeah, totally. I think there's like the regular person reviews and then the next level.
Jessica Kogan:Absolutely. But I do think that it has been such a win for the wine industry because before everything was really felt so super opaque and I really think it's one of the greatest contributions to wine has been digital really has like just opened up a whole universe to consumers.
Brandon Amoroso:What do you think producers can do, like to generate awareness and more sales volume through retailers and your grocery stores, online and in store? That's sort of complimentary no-transcript. Part of me is like if you're spending money on digital advertising, there's going to be a byproduct of that that ends up going to these retailers that now have like pretty robust e-commerce storefronts. Yeah, and so how do you think about, like, what producers can do to support both sides of that?
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's curating and, you know, really taking care of your digital shelf presence. So, you know, really having A plus content. A plus content means, like you know, great photography, good videos, good information, lots of reviews, people like us writing reviews and customers who have verified, who are verified, who've purchased the product, who have a point of view. It really is spending the same amount of time building out, you know, the physical shelf, the time that you put in, like putting the neckers and like the you know little notes on the physical shelf to the digital shelf, where you're, you know, putting the pictures and the writing and the. You know the. You're presenting a very cohesive view of the brand. Wherever the customer turns, they can feel validated. In any channel that they're looking at your brand in, they'll see the same information, just presented slightly differently for the medium.
Brandon Amoroso:Where do you think the sort of differentiation is between how an older consumer is looking at this information versus maybe necessarily like Gen Z or even younger? Because a lot of the conversations I've had with producers as they're thinking about like migrating E-com or reevaluating their digital presence, a big sort of focus point for them is how do we reach people your age, like the younger demographic? I'm an outlier in that I actually like wine and we'll drink wine that doesn't come out of like a bag or some other sort of like. Most of my friends I know it's either like beer, maybe distilled, and then there's a bunch of alternatives that are now popping up too in other categories. So what are you seeing at VWE as it relates to connecting with that younger consumer and what are some of the things that they value versus I don't know.
Brandon Amoroso:I'm forgetting all the generations.
Jessica Kogan:But yeah, yeah, no, I mean the boomers and Gen X and millennials and Gen Z. So I mean, in the context of digital, I think Gen Z is going to be critical to the wine industry and actually reengaging with the wine industry in a way that millennials have not, and I think what that means to the supplier is that they really have to put the time in and the work to really present a strong brand narrative, both in the digital sense but also in the technical sense. So what do I mean by technical? Like the Gen Z will not accept a friction full checkout, like they just won't. You know, they have grown up with Shoppay, they've grown up with Apple Pay, like if it takes more than like 10 seconds to check out, it's over. At the same time, gen Z is very open to ideas and very open to learning, and that's a beautiful thing and we're, and that's what's good, because wine is not easily understood for most people. So, from that perspective, like I have super huge faith in Gen Z becoming kind of on par with boomers in terms of their interest and engagement in wine.
Jessica Kogan:Now you're, you're on the younger side of Gen Z and you happen to have grown up in a universe with a lot of wine, so you're kind of an anomaly, but your cohort will really start getting into wine, you know, in the early 30s, early to mid 30s, which has been the traditional kind of path. Millennials came to it very late because of the recession in 2008. So they're just a little bit behind in terms of income generation and so their interest in wine is not as high. They also are very interested in ready to drink, as your cohort is right now too, because it's a lot of flavors and it's low calorie and it's all of these things and it's good for you. But the thing that the wine industry has done a poor job of explaining to everybody is that, in fact, the best thing to put in your body is wine, because it's real, it has no fake shit, fake stuff in it and it's like good for you versus and the same amount of calories. It's just the same.
Brandon Amoroso:I couldn't possibly tell you what are in those seltzers. They're not good, I don't like them personally and there's like a hundred of them now.
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, oh, they're on fire.
Brandon Amoroso:They're doing the other day I saw an ad for one that has like vitamin C added to it. I'm like, why do like? If I want vitamin C, I'm just going to take vitamin C Like if I'm drinking. Why do I care? If I'm getting vitamin C Like, how is this going to make me buy this one versus the other hundred options? But I think it comes down to marketing. You don't see wine being advertised in the way that seltzers are like good for you, like hundred calories, even though it might be that's not represented on the product or the label or anything like that.
Jessica Kogan:You're starting to see some of that with like fit fine. You're also seeing the no alcohol movement, you know, which is definitely picking up some traction, but at the end of the day, I do believe that the one of the greatest blessings to the wine industry has been digital, though I'm sure any wholesaler listening to this conversation is like I want to written your neck, but I really do believe that ultimately it will deliver in really in growth in the industry that they haven't seen. It's just going to take a little while.
Brandon Amoroso:Yeah, well, hopefully we can help shepherd that along.
Jessica Kogan:Yeah, for sure.
Brandon Amoroso:Well, before we wrap up here, is there a favorite wine memory that you have?
Jessica Kogan:A favorite wine memory.
Brandon Amoroso:Business or non business, it doesn't anything.
Jessica Kogan:I am trying to think of what my there's so many. There's so many. Let's see. One of my favorite wine memories was actually when I was out I live around San Francisco and I was in Goldicke Park and I was having an Italian wine from Mochipulliano. And I'm a pretty novice drinker, I mean, I've been in the industry for a long time, but I grew up on the East Coast and, like people would say, like I smell like orange, I smell iron, I smell stone, I smell river rock, I smell like, you know, cows, and I'm just like I like, don't taste or smell anything that you're talking about. I just like it or I don't like it. It was just this magical day in Golden Gate and it was kind of like at the end of the day, with the sun going down ever so slightly, and it was like a pink glow, maybe felt like a day in Tuscany, I don't know.
Jessica Kogan:And we had opened this just gorgeous bottle of wine and I just remember having that moment of like oh my God, I can taste it all. Like I can taste the cinnamon, I can taste the strawberry, I can taste the cherry, oh, so this is the best wine I've ever had in my entire life. And so I ordered like two cases of it and like two weeks later I found out I was pregnant.
Brandon Amoroso:That'll do it.
Jessica Kogan:Intentionally, intentionally. Yeah, like my, my senses were so heightened that I could taste all of those things and, oh my God, it is like it's incredible.
Brandon Amoroso:I feel like everybody sort of has that light bulb moment. At least for most people I've spoken with, there's always like that one experience or that, that one bottle that really sort of switched the light bulb on for them. I think that's the really cool part about wine is that it is so experiential.
Brandon Amoroso:It is you could give me the same bottle, exact and if I'm drinking it alone, like on my couch, versus your experience where there's so much else going on, like the environment, the people that you're with that what makes it so much more? Than just a product Totally Well with that. I think that's a great place to wrap. Thank you so much for joining us. Before we hop off, though, can you just let people know where they could find you online?
Jessica Kogan:Sure, they can find me on LinkedIn at Jessica Kogan, and they can also find the wine company that I co-founded at chwinecom, and they can learn more about vintage wine estates at vintagewineestatescom.
Brandon Amoroso:Awesome. Thank you for joining us. For everybody listening. As always, this is Brandon Amoroso. You can find us at drinkscom and we will see you next time.