The Caring Train with Dan Shiffman

In this episode, we had the amazing chance to speak to Dan Shiffman, the creator of the Coding Train YouTube channel. They discuss the origins of Coding Train, Dan's background in philosophy and mathematics, his approach to teaching code, and the challenges of balancing work and family life. They also touch on the importance of care in the creative coding community.

Website: https://thecodingtrain.com/
Project mentioned: https://youtube.com/@TheCodingTrain

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This podcast is created and hosted by Computational Mama
Produced, edited by Beatnyk
Intro and outro pieces by Beatnyk

With emotional support from:
Suvani Suri
Agat Sharma
Nanditi Khilnani

Transcript

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Hi, welcome to Care Of. This is a short form podcast featuring conversations with creators,

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creative technologists about code, work and care. As I traverse ideas and realities of

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care in my life with first my grandparents and now my son, I recognize some shifts in

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the ways of thinking and working, differences in access available or afforded to me. And

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I can't help but wonder how care translates to others in the creator community. This podcast

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wonder how care translates to others in the creator community.

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This podcast is a simple attempt to open up, investigate,

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and document our practices from the lens of care.

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Mathematically, this care is directly

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proportional to time management.

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OK, so we are restarting.

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Let's see if this works.

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All right, I think you can hear me now, yes?

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Undoubtedly, undoubtedly, how do you say that word?

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Undoubtedly, undoubtedly. How do you say that word?

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I need to share my parent relaxed with other creative coding.

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I will always be your number one hype woman.

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Okay, good, good. I'm not used to talking this much.

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I guess I'm out of shape.

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I do actually feel like, to me, the word care,

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I love that you're coming at this discussion with that word.

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And I think that's not the usual perspective that you will start with

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when it's in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding space.

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know, in a sort of like tech or computer science or coding

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space. So,

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so there's all these different spaces of care to navigate.

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Thanks, Dan, for joining us on care of short form interview

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podcast with creative technologists and we're looking

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at code work and care. Today we have with us none other than the

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person who doesn't need an introduction, the most amazing

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an introduction, the most amazing. That to two and too many pets. Dan is an associate

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arts professor at ITP at New York University's Tisch School of Arts. Originally from Baltimore,

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Dan received a BA in mathematics and philosophy from Yale University and a master's degree

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and a master's degree from the ITP.

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He is one of the directors of Processing Foundation,

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and he develops tutorials, examples, and libraries

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for processing and p5.js.

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He's the author of Learning Processing,

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A Beginner's Guide to Programming Images, Animation,

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and Interactions, and the Nature of Code,

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an open source book about simulating natural phenomenon

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in processing.

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He's found talking incessantly on YouTube

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phenomenon in processing. He's found talking incessantly on

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YouTube about programming. But well, I guess every all of us

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know that and and of course, if you ask anybody about their

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creative coding journey, it's incomplete without mention to

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coding train. I originally started watching your videos

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after finding Nature of Codebook. And I recall, you went

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through a couple of names for it.

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Yes, the original name for the chat. Well, so first of all, I

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of names for it. Yes, the original name for the chat. Well, so first of all, I didn't really

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have an intention of let me start a YouTube channel about creative coding with this name

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and brand and this perspective. I just was kind of making videos for my students in class at NYU.

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So but at a certain point when I started uploading them to YouTube and I started live streaming,

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streaming, I wanted it to feel like a show or a thing.

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So I just, I think I even just improvised the name of it

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one day saying Coding Rainbow after inspired by

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this American television show from my childhood

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called Reading Rainbow.

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And so, and it's just, you know,

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I love the idea of rainbows and color

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and I just loved Reading Rainbow and the host,

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LeVar Burton is like, you know, one of my idols.

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So I just kind of said that and it kind of caught on,

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host, LeVar Burton is like, you know, one of my idols. So I just

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kind of said that, and it kind of caught on. But

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unfortunately, you know, and I think rightfully so. You know, I

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was I wasn't really thinking about where I was going with it.

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And as a fun homage to the to reading Rainbow, it made sense.

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But after I started growing a bit of an audience, they sent me

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a very nice but stern letter saying, you know, you can't

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really use this name. And you know, your logo is kind of

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this name and your logo is kind of obviously based.

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So that's when I kind of switched

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and I needed just to come up with a new name in a couple days.

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And I really should know who this was,

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but one of the viewers suggested Coding Train.

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I was like, that's good. I like trains.

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Sounds good. It's sort of fun. It's playful.

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And so that's where the Coding Train name started

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and it's kind of stuck.

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But I'm always like thinking like,

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it's kind of stuck. But I always I'm always like thinking like,

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you know, Oh, should I rename it? Should I have done a

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different name? I've never I never felt feel like really

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secure. But too many people know it by the coding train now. So I

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think I'm sticking with it.

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Yeah. I mean, I get it because I think I just started

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computation. Mama is this like little side inside joke. And I

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had just like a couple of friends who knew about the

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Instagram account, but I'm happy. It's turned into

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who knew about the Instagram account,

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but I'm happy that it's turned into something

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little bit, you know, like crazy.

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And like, I think something we don't have control over.

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But I love the name Computational Mama

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because it really, it's very unique

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and it offers like an immediate understanding

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of a kind of point of view and something different

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about what it is you're doing.

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I felt like Coding Rainbow did that too

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in the sense that I'm trying to say,

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this is like for play and fun and experimentation as,

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for play and fun and experimentation as,

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you know, there's nothing wrong with,

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I'm not saying this as like a criticism

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of more sort of like formal computer science study,

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which is very meaningful and important,

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but I just wanted to have a different vibe.

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So I don't know that Coding Train accomplishes that,

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but I think all of the branding and logo

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and all of the characters that Jason Heglund,

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who I've been working with for a number of years,

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that really made it, it really does work

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to kind of have that hopefully playful spirit

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made it, it really does work to kind of have that, hopefully,

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playful spirit and quality to it.

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Absolutely. And I think you're so open about the way you record

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it. And I think that's what you and Raf were also discussing

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yesterday. And it really not I mean, not in terms of producing

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content, but even in terms of your learning, if you see

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someone else kind of alter what here and there you feel like,

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okay, it's, it's very easy to kind of like, try this and not

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it's very easy to kind of like try this and not feel that you need to be perfect.

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And I think playfulness always comes with the idea of falling like in the

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playground. So it's exciting to kind of be able to, I do recall.

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And of course I read it out as well that many years ago in some stream,

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you did mention that you have a background in philosophy and mathematics.

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And I was just wondering how those two things came together and how you went to

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ITP. I think at that time it was Red who was, who was heading ITP.

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you went to ITP. I think at that time it was Red who was who was

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heading ITP.

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Yeah. So it's funny that that, you know, that bio that you

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started with is kind of just like a formal academic bio, I

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suppose. But I do feel quite disconnected from those days of

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being an undergraduate student, which is now over 25 years ago.

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And yes, I did major in math and philosophy. But, and you could

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And you could probably connect the dots between that field of study and what I'm doing now,

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but pivoting from your question in a way.

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But I was really, when I was in college, I was really into doing like music and theater.

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I'm not saying I was any good at it necessarily, but that was actually what I was doing

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as an extracurricular activity.

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And I think, but I loved, but I always loved, to bring it back to that,

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I always loved math and science.

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that I always loved math and science.

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So I think my whole life I've been kind of into like,

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ooh, I love doing these math problems.

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And also I love like writing weird songs,

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very poorly, I might add.

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I think I do everything.

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So not suggesting I do either of those things

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in an amazing way.

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But I think in a way,

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after I graduated from college and I moved to New York City,

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I was both continuing to do sort of some theater projects,

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unpaid sort of things.

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I was both continuing to do sort of some theater projects,

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you know, unpaid sort of things.

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I was working, I had a job as a paralegal for a while,

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but mostly I was working like as a freelance

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kind of computer person, not programming,

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but just like setting up networks and helping people,

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you know, again, you have to think about this

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as we're talking about like the late 90s, early 2000s.

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So even just like helping people to like figure out

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how to use their computer in their office

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was like a thing that people needed help with.

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helping people to figure out how to use their computer in their office was a thing that

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people needed help with.

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So I was doing that, doing theater, and I think ITP, not with some grand plan, but I

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found the program as a place where people were doing creative things with technology.

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And Tisch is the school, the theater, the film school, it's all there.

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So it felt like, oh, a place that I wanted to be.

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be. But once I got there, interestingly enough, I just sort of like fell in love with coding for

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its own sake, which is, I think I try to preach this point of view of coding is not a thing for

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coding. I mean, it can be, it is sort of for me, but it's really a thing to apply to whatever your

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passions and interests might be. But for me, I think, you know, I might have thought that I was

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going in a particular direction, but at ITP, I just, I discovered coding, and then I discovered

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ITP, I just, I discovered coding, and then I discovered

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processing, that I discovered teaching, and it all, I mean, I

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discovered teaching, I knew teaching existed. But I think I

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found that there was a place for me in teaching code. So that's

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what I just kind of got wrapped up in doing. And I've just been

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doing it ever since.

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So when you say music and theater, was it like musical

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theater?

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't picky. Anything that was

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I wasn't picky.

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Anything that was like entertainment related theater music

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like that I could like participate in,

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I wanted to participate in.

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But yes, I think the true love of my life,

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my only regret is that I didn't,

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it's not really a regret,

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but I mean, I never pursued that passion

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like really seriously.

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I think I've found a lot of puzzle pieces

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of things that I love.

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And I've arrived at this place where,

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but coding train is like this amazing thing

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of things that I love and I've arrived at this place where,

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but Coding Train is like this amazing thing that I get to do

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and I love the people that I work with

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at Processing Foundation and NYU and all the teaching

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and people that I meet.

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This is to me is so special that I get to meet people

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from all over the world and that have found my content

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and then I discover theirs and we kind of like,

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even though, hopefully someday we'll get to meet in person,

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but I feel like I have come to know so many different viewers

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But I feel like I have come to know so many different viewers and fellow streamers and

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coders like yourself from different backgrounds, with different cultures and different points

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of view.

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And that to me is so, so special.

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But maybe someday Coding Train the musical will happen and I can bring it all back together.

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That's my dream.

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Since we're on this theme, do you have any particular musicals that you've loved or are

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any particular musicals that you've loved or are your favorites? We've only seen them

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as films here.

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I mean, so I love a lot of the kind of classics. And when I was in high school and college,

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I was in like Guys and Dolls and anything goes. But a musical that I really love is

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a musical called Nine the Musical by Maury Eston. And I directed a production of it in

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the musical by Maury Eston.

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And I directed a production of it in college.

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And it's about Fellini, the Italian film director.

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Anyways, it's like an amazing musical.

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And I really love that show.

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But recently, I really loved,

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I mean, I loved seeing Hamilton, Dear Evan Hansen.

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I saw The Great Comet, which was really fantastic.

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You know, I used to work for,

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one of the early jobs I had before I went to ITP,

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thank you, by the way, for indulging this discussion.

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I don't get to talk about this,

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indulging this discussion.

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I don't get to talk about this,

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is I worked for the Leonard Bernstein Foundation

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for a number of years.

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So I was kind of like just like an office assistant

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and I helped with different projects.

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I like helped with their website.

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I mean, this again, many, many, this is over 20 years ago,

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but I've been so excited to see a West Side Story

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and anything Leonard Bernstein.

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I'm absolutely, certainly one of my idols growing up.

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And he unfortunately was not alive at the time

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growing up. And he unfortunately was not alive at the time when I

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was working for the Leonard Bernstein Foundation. He died

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well before I would have had the chance to meet him. But I, you

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know, I haven't seen the new West Side Story movie. So I keep

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meaning to see it. And I just saw that there's a Leonard

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Bernstein biopic that's coming out with starring Bradley

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Cooper. I think he's directing it too. So anyway, anything

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Leonard Bernstein, I'm also a huge fan of.

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Okay, we'll put it in the show notes for those who want to

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anything Leonard Bernstein, I'm also a huge fan of.

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Okay, we'll put it in the show notes for those who want to

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like pursue this, this idea of it.

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Yeah, any composer, musical theatre composers and writers

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out there get in touch with me, we're gonna start working on

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Code the Musical.

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So I think I'd like to delve a bit more into understanding I

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think this idea of coding train and how it was built. I mean, I

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know a bit of the story just as a viewer also, but

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was built. I mean, I know a bit of the story just as a viewer also.

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Yeah. I mean, I think that sort of like early history of just starting, of how I started

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it is like not something that people often ask about or like to hear about. And one of

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the things that I think helped me from the beginning was not being too precious about

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the videos. And it was really like my whole thing was, let me just press a button, record,

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really like my whole thing was,

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let me just press a button, record, talk, demo,

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and record, upload.

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So that's like one of the things

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that I really always try to do.

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And even where I'm standing right now to talk to you,

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like I don't ever record anything

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to memory cards on camera.

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Or do everything just goes into a computer

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using Open Broadcast Studio.

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So it's easy to record and upload

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without a lot of post-production,

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a lot of extra work.

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So it's easy to record and upload

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without a lot of post-production,

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a lot of extra work.

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But I will say that this is one of the things

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that is currently, I think, one of my main struggles

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or things that I wonder about

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because the more that I've iterated

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and tried to improve quality,

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I've been able to derive some income from sponsorships

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and people who are very generous with crowdfunding.

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And so I have now hired and worked with,

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with crowdfunding, and so I have now hired and worked with,

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you know, for many years a video editor,

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and now I have an animator, and we start doing more and more.

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So while the production quality has improved,

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the amount of content I make is less.

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And then should I focus on live streaming or edited videos?

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This is what I was talking about yesterday,

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so it's like very fresh in my mind,

303
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but this is actually something that I'm really always curious

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to hear from people and trying to find that right balance

305
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to hear from people and trying to find that right balance

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between like, let me I want to just make a lot of stuff so that

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people have things to learn and experiment with. But I also want

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to have it be high quality. So where's the right where's the

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right balance there? Anyway, that was a little tangent. I

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don't know if that was a useful tangent. I went on.

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No, that was nice. Because I think that was kind of one of

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the reasons I started coding with friends because I was out

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of content and anything new I was learning was anyway from

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your video. So it was just easier for me to tell people to

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And anything new I was learning was anyway from your video.

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So it was just easier for me to tell people

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to go watch your videos.

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And then I thought, OK, but what would be interesting

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and challenging is to see if we can take something that

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is in someone's mind.

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And they don't necessarily have the right coding skill

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to kind of take it forward.

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Myself, I don't.

324
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I mean, I'm not such an expert.

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But at least it helped to switch it around a bit.

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But when I'm looking at the live streams,

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I always wonder, how long, how are you

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bit. But when I'm looking at the live stream, I always wonder how

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long how are you able to stand for so long?

330
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Well, I don't know why but I'm not I my energy is such that I

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find sitting I have trouble like, sitting is not a

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comfortable place for me in sort of like teaching and

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communicating. I mean, sitting is on the couch with like, you

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know, my cats or whatever and watching a movie is like a very

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comfortable so there's nothing wrong with sitting but teaching

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my cats or whatever and watching the movie is like very comfortable.

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So there's nothing wrong with sitting.

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But teaching-wise, I've always felt like I need to be up and moving and drawing.

339
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Like I've always tried to have a whiteboard handy,

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this green screen setup is so I can gesture and point to things.

341
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Again, who knows how much impact and how much this really matters.

342
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But for me, it's like my comfort zone.

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So I feel after a certain amount of time standing and teaching,

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amount of time standing and teaching,

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I start to feel kind of tired or brain dead

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and my energy will sort of wander.

347
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Sometimes I'll get a second or a third wind.

348
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But I think probably your perception

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of how long I can do it with keeping the same energy

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is false.

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But I do feel, so I think that probably

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I should do a better job of limiting myself,

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organizing what I wanna do in a live stream,

354
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taking breaks more.

355
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Like I would encourage anybody, don't follow my lead.

356
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taking breaks more.

357
00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:03,840
Like, I would encourage anybody, don't follow my lead.

358
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But I do just have, I get really excited about code and teaching.

359
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And there's, you know, I sort of think of it,

360
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I don't know if I think of it this way,

361
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or it's just, it's an outlet for performance

362
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and sort of like getting out any sort of goofy, silly energy that I have.

363
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And so that kind of keeps me going during, like, live stream sessions.

364
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,860
And knowing that there's an audience out there,

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however small or big,

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00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,760
knowing that there's an audience out there, however small or big, you know, I have such a wide range of,

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00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,840
based on times and topics of like, how many people are tuning in from, you know, five to 10 people to

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00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:41,760
like 1000 people. So, but like, just have knowing that feeling the energy of the audience. It's not

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perfect. It's not like being in a theater where like people are watching, but that that helps keep

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00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,760
me going as well. Whereas I think if I were just sort of like recording a class with no one live

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00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,800
Whereas I think if I were just sort of like recording a class

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with no one live tuning in,

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00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,080
we will steer it a bit into like coding train as a project and

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00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,800
care. Maybe I'll just give a few points that I thought like, for

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00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,800
example, I really enjoyed I think it was one of the first

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00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,680
times that you did a live stream of your original studio, which

377
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,760
was this like narrow, like almost like a walk-in closet

378
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,400
kind of a space and showed all this, all the walls and your

379
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:18,200
all the walls and your setup and then, you know, suddenly from this very teacher thing

380
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,320
you had kind of flipped it around and it really like helped us, many of us I'm sure, to like

381
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:29,040
really feel very, you know, like attached to you as a person whom we are looking at

382
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,800
and looking up to.

383
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,440
And I mean, there may have been instances that I'm missing, maybe you'd like to talk

384
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,360
about something where you felt that, you know, that, because it's almost like community care

385
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,560
where you felt that, you know, that because it's here, it's

386
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,680
almost like community care is what what we can talk about

387
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,240
around coding change. So perhaps you'd like to tell us some

388
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,920
interesting incidents and anecdotes.

389
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,400
Yeah, I'm glad that I that you're giving me this feedback,

390
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,120
because I do feel like that this idea of care is really maybe

391
00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:02,800
more missing from the kind of online education, video, YouTube

392
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,600
education, video, YouTube space that I inhabit.

393
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,820
Whereas if I'm teaching an in-person class at NYU

394
00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:12,300
or wherever, workshop at a high school over the weekend,

395
00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,340
and it's 12 people or 16 people

396
00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:15,940
and I can relate to them in the room,

397
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:19,660
I really try to start with an approach of care.

398
00:18:19,660 --> 00:18:22,420
Like, let me disarm everybody first

399
00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:23,900
and let everybody feel comfortable.

400
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,620
There's no pressure here.

401
00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:28,360
Don't worry if you don't know what we're talking about.

402
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:29,340
Like, that's why you're here.

403
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,360
no pressure here, or don't worry if you don't know what we're talking about.

404
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:29,360
Like, that's why you're here.

405
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:30,360
Let's all support each other.

406
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:34,840
So I always – and then I can have individual meetings or I can make eye contact or I can

407
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,480
come help somebody next to them.

408
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,680
So that approach of care and teaching in a classroom, I feel like, you know, there's

409
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,440
– it doesn't always – it's not perfect, like especially being in a large university

410
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:51,320
and with grades and stress and, you know, the global pandemic, there's so many ways

411
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,000
the global pandemic, there's so many ways that I could improve on caring for the students.

412
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,200
So I'm not saying like, oh, it just works like magically. But I've always felt like that is

413
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,320
missing a little bit from the online spaces, whether it's Discord or YouTube or Processing

414
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:12,400
Forum or wherever it is. But I think for me, what hopefully, and maybe you kind of alluded to this

415
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,200
to this in seeing the studio tour,

416
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,500
it's like I really try to keep in my mind always

417
00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,380
the audience member, the person watching

418
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:23,720
who is maybe just watching for the first time

419
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,420
and knows nothing about what's going on

420
00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:27,920
in terms of code and coding.

421
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,920
And of course, I can't do that always.

422
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,500
I've got this video I'm making about wave function collapse,

423
00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:34,880
which is a very sophisticated algorithm

424
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,220
and requires a lot of sort of prerequisite knowledge

425
00:19:38,260 --> 00:19:39,960
to sort of follow that code.

426
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,300
requires a lot of prerequisite knowledge

427
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,020
to follow that code.

428
00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:42,860
But I still, in the back of my mind,

429
00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:47,520
I'm talking to a person who maybe has never coded before.

430
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,620
And so to me, that's a form of care

431
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,240
to prioritize the beginner

432
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,740
and to prioritize the person who might feel like

433
00:19:56,740 --> 00:19:58,800
this isn't the space for them.

434
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,300
And again, based on who I am

435
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,240
and my identity and my life experience,

436
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,760
I can't do that perfectly for everyone,

437
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,160
based on who I am and my identity and my life experience.

438
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,660
I can't do that perfectly for everyone,

439
00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:09,580
but I try my best to sort of foster that spirit.

440
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:13,220
So that to me is where care comes in.

441
00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:15,380
The other place not to ramble on too long

442
00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:17,640
is like, I really try to think about

443
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,260
how can I celebrate the work that people are making

444
00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,360
based on videos that they've watched

445
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,780
or just in the same space.

446
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,880
videos that they've watched or just in the same space.

447
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,880
So can I retweet somebody or just reply?

448
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,000
I can't, I get a lot of emails asking for code help.

449
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,360
I don't reply to them all.

450
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,040
A lot of them I try to,

451
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,520
and I gone through different ways of managing that,

452
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,080
but I try to like pick targeted moments

453
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,600
where I can really like answer somebody's question

454
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,040
or give them some encouragement.

455
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,040
question or give them some encouragement.

456
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,040
And again, for me, I'm looking for who,

457
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,840
if, again, I can't make these kinds of decisions perfectly.

458
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,920
I don't have all knowing, I'm not all knowing,

459
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,920
but sometimes I get a feeling of somebody

460
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,560
who sent me an email that maybe they don't have

461
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,120
anybody else they could ask, or maybe they don't have

462
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:11,440
the support from teachers or at their school,

463
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,880
or maybe they come from a place where they don't have

464
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,240
as much access to support.

465
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,800
I come from a place where they don't have as much access

466
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,240
to support and knowledge.

467
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,200
So I try to find those moments where I can really

468
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,800
like reply to somebody and help them

469
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,520
and point them in the right direction.

470
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,400
So those are the sort of forms of care,

471
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,620
the sort of like, how do I project sort of friendliness

472
00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:33,360
and welcoming inclusive vibe to a larger audience?

473
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,440
And how can I find little moments where I can

474
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,840
have a one-on-one interaction

475
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,400
who was just answering somebody's email

476
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,800
have a one-on-one interaction,

477
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,360
who is just answering somebody's email,

478
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,200
where I can be provide some care and support

479
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,000
for somebody who maybe doesn't have it.

480
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:44,840
That's so beautiful.

481
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,960
I think it gives us a good sense

482
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,760
of how you're thinking about coding train

483
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,320
and everything around it.

484
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,620
But I think I want to shift the focus a bit.

485
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,520
I mean, I don't know if I should say,

486
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,460
I just I'm a little bit nosy,

487
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:03,200
but I think I just find that when I understand a creator

488
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,360
I just find that when I understand a creator or I mean I can say very easily a personality

489
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:11,800
that I mean you are a personality now, famous personality, when you get to know a bit about

490
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:17,980
them at you know how they manage at home and it kind of one endears you to them but also

491
00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:24,080
I feel like you know you know you feel like okay if they can so can we kind of thing and

492
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,120
definitely like especially when I meet other parent creative coders I do feel okay this

493
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,160
Definitely, like, especially when I meet other parent creative coders, I do feel okay, this

494
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,280
is a possibility and I'm not crazy.

495
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,400
And maybe, I mean, I mean, I know that because there are so many people following you, so

496
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,440
you can like please share what you feel is best without, you know, interrupting your

497
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,440
your family's privacy.

498
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,760
I mean, I know that you have two cuties at home who draw with you occasionally, and I

499
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,680
think you tried to include them in during the lockdown stream.

500
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,640
occasionally, and I think you tried to include them in during

501
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,280
the lockdown stream. So maybe you can tell us a bit about

502
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,360
what's happening at home if you're

503
00:22:55,360 --> 00:23:00,120
Yeah, of course. So yeah, so I'm in an interesting place right

504
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:06,480
now, because I am currently on sabbatical from teaching for a

505
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,360
full year, so for 2022. So you know, halfway through this year

506
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,200
about June, that's about halfway through. So I definitely feel

507
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,640
That's about halfway through.

508
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,640
So I definitely feel like I'm in a more relaxed phase

509
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,440
of being able to have a nice sort of like work-life

510
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:22,400
family balance.

511
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,200
So if we were doing this interview like a year ago,

512
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,960
I probably would have many different things to say,

513
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:33,320
but it's still, it's such a challenge.

514
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,780
And so, yeah, I have two kids, they're 10 and 13.

515
00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:41,200
I'm entering a whole new phase of parenting

516
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,520
kids, they're 10 and 13, I'm entering a whole new phase of parenting.

517
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,920
Because there were many years of having this sort of like,

518
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,160
toddler and elementary school.

519
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,720
And so we haven't really sort of like fully dived into the teenager years.

520
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,760
But some things have gotten easier and other things get harder.

521
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:04,280
I think I definitely struggle with how to prioritize and schedule myself.

522
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,320
with how to prioritize and schedule myself.

523
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,160
Because I think, you know, so it's easy for me to say,

524
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,320
and there's no doubt about this in my mind,

525
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,320
that well, like, my kids and my family

526
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,240
are the highest priority.

527
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,920
I can't even, I can't think of any way to argue with that.

528
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,720
At the same time, like I just, it's tricky to figure out,

529
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,720
like sometimes, especially when I was teaching,

530
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,240
if I wanted to keep the coding train going,

531
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,600
I feel like, okay, well, I really,

532
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,360
if I'm gonna make this video, I gotta do it on Saturday.

533
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,500
I feel like, okay, well, I really,

534
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,220
if I'm gonna make this video, I gotta do it on Saturday.

535
00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:30,960
Okay, wait, so there's Little League

536
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,260
and then there's a birthday party.

537
00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:34,380
Okay, I have a few hours.

538
00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:37,220
They can watch a movie while I'm like recording.

539
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:40,440
And so then I start to feel guilty about that too.

540
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,480
So finding, I think that's a real struggle.

541
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,820
I have tremendous privilege in terms of like some,

542
00:24:46,820 --> 00:24:49,480
having this full-time job, financial stability,

543
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:50,700
lots of family support.

544
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,800
financial stability, lots of family support.

545
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,900
So I think for me, there's a lot of,

546
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,840
I think a lot of challenges that parents face.

547
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,840
I have many, you know, ways to overcome those

548
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,260
that I think that come with a lot of ease.

549
00:25:05,260 --> 00:25:10,260
But I think just the sort of like balance,

550
00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:12,180
I think for me, it's the,

551
00:25:12,180 --> 00:25:14,120
I think one of the things that I really struggle with

552
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,760
is feeling like I'm not doing enough

553
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,080
I think one of the things that I really struggle with

554
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,300
is feeling like I'm not doing enough.

555
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:17,960
And I'm not doing enough.

556
00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:19,600
I didn't make enough videos,

557
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,260
or I never finished the second edition of The Nature of Code book,

558
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:25,300
or I didn't reply to my student emails.

559
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,340
And I have all these emails from people asking for help,

560
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,300
but I can't reply to them.

561
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,400
And I really want to spend more time with family,

562
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,320
but we're all just racing around and everybody's too busy.

563
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,480
So that to me is the struggle of like allowing...

564
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,900
One is just finding, and I haven't found this,

565
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,040
allowing, one is just finding, and I haven't found this,

566
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,940
some kind of acceptance with doing more

567
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:46,680
to take care of my kids means,

568
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,380
so that I am doing less with other stuff,

569
00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:54,960
or just finding some kind of nice schedule.

570
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,720
I was actually, one of the things that I really,

571
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,140
I don't know how it is for you,

572
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:02,520
but that I admire about Raphael's work and stream,

573
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,520
I was on a guest on his Twitch stream yesterday,

574
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,500
about Raphael's work and stream.

575
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:05,660
I was on a guest on his Twitch stream yesterday.

576
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:09,860
He's just really like streams Sunday and Tuesday,

577
00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:10,780
if those are the right times.

578
00:26:10,780 --> 00:26:14,140
At these times, every week, there's this challenge.

579
00:26:14,140 --> 00:26:15,660
Every week, there's this newsletter.

580
00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:17,500
Like I just, I'm not able.

581
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:18,780
He's very organized.

582
00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:22,560
I just, I want to be more, I want to have that.

583
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,220
I feel like if I had that and I was maybe able

584
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,600
and I was maybe able to balance that well

585
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,400
with my sort of like family life.

586
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,400
I thought what it was, was teaching was my full-time job

587
00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:38,620
and I have that as like a true obligation.

588
00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:41,100
Family is my heart and soul and love

589
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:42,960
and so it's my number one priority.

590
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,480
Coding training videos was just like a sort of hobby

591
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,320
that kind of fits in between all these things.

592
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,500
But I just have to be scatterbrained about it

593
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,520
But I just have to be scatterbrained about it

594
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,520
because it's not my family, it's not my work obligation.

595
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,220
But now that I'm on sabbatical, I'm realizing,

596
00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:59,480
no, it's all just too hard no matter what.

597
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,300
So it's not the teaching, you know.

598
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:05,960
And so maybe I'll have it figured out,

599
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,760
you know, come back to me at the end of 2022.

600
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,480
Maybe I'll have this all figured out.

601
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,720
But yeah, that's, but I think one thing just,

602
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,440
and one thing that's been really fun about doing this

603
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,920
That's, yeah, that's, but I think one thing just,

604
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,440
one thing that's been really fun about doing this

605
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,520
is my kids are big into like YouTube

606
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,720
and stuff online and making videos.

607
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,760
And so I feel like it's been fun to sort of

608
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,280
learn about this world that I'm much kind of older

609
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,660
than most people.

610
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,440
It are, you know, if you, I guess if like,

611
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,440
if you take the world of people who are sort of,

612
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,500
You know, if you, I guess if like,

613
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:40,460
if you take the world of people who are sort of,

614
00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:42,980
you know, full-time creators or YouTubers

615
00:27:42,980 --> 00:27:45,240
or part-time creators or YouTubers,

616
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,800
I think I'm probably on quite the high end

617
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,700
of the age bracket.

618
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:53,200
But, you know, I kind of have,

619
00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:56,520
A, I enjoy the sort of like,

620
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,160
the ribbing that my kids will give me

621
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,860
for not like understanding or knowing certain things,

622
00:28:00,860 --> 00:28:03,700
but also I can kind of like wander in

623
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,660
and things, but also I can kind of like wander in

624
00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:07,740
and poke around and know things about this sort of like world

625
00:28:07,740 --> 00:28:10,860
of media and culture and YouTube and beyond YouTube,

626
00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:13,420
Twitch and other types of online platforms

627
00:28:13,420 --> 00:28:15,140
for video and entertainment.

628
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:17,220
So that's been kind of a fun way for me to relate

629
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:21,100
to my kids also by like having, you know,

630
00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:22,580
I mean, it's sort of silly, but it's like, ha ha,

631
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:25,140
look at all the subscribers I have kind of thing.

632
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:28,800
Like as a joke in a way, like as a family, you know.

633
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,480
kind of thing, like as a joke in a way, like as a family, you know.

634
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,760
Yeah, I was actually meaning to ask you because I think for the for younger audiences, it's all

635
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,320
about YouTube. And you know, many of them aspire to be YouTubers when they grow up. And then you

636
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,800
know, you're already there. And how do they kind of like respond to it? Do they ever watch your

637
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,360
videos? Or are they into coding? I mean, I was keen to know about those things.

638
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,360
to know about those things.

639
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:49,860
Yeah.

640
00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:51,880
So it kind of ebbs and flows.

641
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,720
Both my kids are super into computers

642
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880
and super into creativity.

643
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,920
My son, I think, and I've done coding stuff with them.

644
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,160
I think one thing is also a really interesting dynamic

645
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,640
is I feel like I have all this experience,

646
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,800
and we talked about the word care, and sort of patient,

647
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,840
I hope, patience and care for my students,

648
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,960
and I hope patience and care for my students,

649
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,960
whether it's at NYU or a workshop.

650
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,520
And when I try to teach stuff to my kids,

651
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,480
we just like push each other's buttons

652
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,440
and it like doesn't work.

653
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,760
And that's just to say,

654
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,880
I don't mean like in some real negative,

655
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,240
we're like yelling and screaming

656
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,760
and like breaking plates kind of way or something.

657
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,000
In a way, it is sort of like in good fun.

658
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,640
But for whatever reason,

659
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,320
it doesn't really work so well for me

660
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,640
in good fun, but for whatever reason,

661
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,320
it doesn't really work so well for me

662
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,240
to try to teach my kids.

663
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,240
So I mean, we have a lot of fun together

664
00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:49,760
and we can do all sorts of things

665
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,720
that I couldn't do, I think, with other people in the world

666
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,680
that I could do with my kids and my family.

667
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,560
So I think one is I have stayed away a little bit of like,

668
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,360
hey, let's do weekend coding sessions.

669
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,280
But I brought them to things like Creative Coding Fest,

670
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,240
But I brought them to things like Creative Coding Fest,

671
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,480
that's a series that CyberCon has been organizing for years.

672
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,920
And so we've done different workshops,

673
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,960
but I have seen my son particularly,

674
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,960
like is really into like gaming and animation.

675
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,120
And so I actually was starting to think

676
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,440
about learning Blender.

677
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,800
Like, I think that might be like,

678
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,880
so I'm trying to find what are some,

679
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,640
what are the things that they love

680
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,680
What are the things that they love

681
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,300
and ways that I can kind of like help support them in that?

682
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,480
But yes, so I think they're more just bemused,

683
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,440
if that's the right word, at my like YouTubing

684
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,020
and kind of like almost in a more like eye-rolling

685
00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:41,920
kind of way, like, oh my God,

686
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,920
there you are talking about like your YouTube channel again.

687
00:30:47,420 --> 00:30:49,160
But I think they do,

688
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,960
we'll see whether the sort of coding aspect takes,

689
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,080
they do. We'll see whether the sort of coding aspect takes but

690
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,760
I do think that a lot of the things that I am interested in

691
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,320
that I express through code, I think they have the same

692
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,100
interest and we'll see whether they want to express it in

693
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:02,240
different ways or through code.

694
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,160
Right. That's interesting. I think I don't know yet where my

695
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,540
son will go because he's still learning the alphabet. But I can

696
00:31:10,540 --> 00:31:12,800
understand that like little frustration that you know,

697
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,200
sometimes you're trying to teach them something but they end up

698
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,240
frustration that you know, sometimes you're trying to teach

699
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,960
them something, but they end up, they just end up like pressing

700
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,680
some buttons. And then you know, like, it's like, oh, let's just

701
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,600
forget about this.

702
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,680
So,

703
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,000
well, it's weird to also like, I, I have so I try to be so

704
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,840
thoughtful with my students about like, not doing their

705
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,000
homework for them. Right. And trying to like, provide support

706
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,120
and lead them in a path and like, let me talk you through

707
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,800
provide support and lead them in a path

708
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,120
and like, let me talk you through this.

709
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,960
Well, let me, you know, I really like,

710
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,840
I noticed if I'm in office hours at NYU

711
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,400
that I, especially pre-COVID,

712
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,480
one of the things I like about,

713
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:46,980
no, there's nothing to really like about COVID,

714
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:50,520
but doing a lot of this like remote work

715
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,960
and remote teaching,

716
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,040
I found that I had to articulate my help more.

717
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Like you fall back on like taking over somebody's computer.

718
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,320
Like, let me fix this and show you how this works.

719
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:01,960
But I think with my kids for some reason,

720
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,400
I've just like, it's, I've lost that,

721
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,360
But I think with my kids for some reason, I've just like,

722
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,920
I've lost that, I lose that ability to like think through,

723
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,200
let me help you and support you in learning this

724
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,240
in your own way.

725
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,880
And I'm just kind of like correcting them.

726
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,200
Or like, no, I'm gonna show you how to do it.

727
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,920
So that's, it's like, I just have such a different

728
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,120
relationship with them.

729
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,440
It's very interesting.

730
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,040
Maybe that will change as they become older.

731
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,760
You know, if they're sort of like college age or adult age

732
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,880
you know, if they're, you know, sort of like, college age or

733
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,680
adult age that I will, you know, might there might be a way that

734
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,960
I find that I relate to them more like how I relate to some

735
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:38,280
of my students at NYU. But now it's just it's, it's just, we

736
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,280
just have it's, we have a lot so much fun together. But yeah,

737
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,760
teaching, me being their teacher is not the not not the vibe that

738
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:46,600
we have in our house.

739
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,520
So are they, are you a pre-dad creative coder or are you a

740
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:54,000
So are you a pre-dad creative coder or are you a creative coder post?

741
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:01,000
No, pre. So I started, I mean, I learned a little bit of coding in elementary school on Apple 2 Plus computer, Apple Soft Basic.

742
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:07,000
I've been thinking a lot about that because I have a series coming out on Nebula about Apple coding and basic.

743
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,000
But then I didn't really touch programming much at all.

744
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,000
I think maybe in middle school I did a little bit here and there, but it wasn't something that I was into.

745
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,600
in middle school, I did a little bit here and there,

746
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,400
but it wasn't something that I was into.

747
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,600
I just did whatever I did at school

748
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:20,800
because it was required.

749
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,960
And then I never took computer science classes.

750
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,200
I was doing a lot of adjacent, like math classes,

751
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,520
philosophy, logic classes, but I didn't.

752
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,020
So, and then I was working in computers

753
00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:39,640
and doing a lot of software networking,

754
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,640
and doing a lot of software networking,

755
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,080
just whatever, like kind of jack of all trades kind of stuff.

756
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,440
But when I went to ITP,

757
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,720
that's I would say where I really started coding.

758
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,800
And I was either 27 or 28.

759
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,240
I'm sure I can figure that out quickly.

760
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,440
But I think 27 when I started ITP.

761
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,640
And so I didn't have kids yet.

762
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,200
I think my son was born when I was 35.

763
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,560
So I learned to code and really got,

764
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:08,320
when I was 35. So I learned to code and really got, I had many years of that like ability to just like,

765
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,360
I have total control over my schedule and I could just work on stuff whenever and I then I can

766
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,640
choose what I'm going to relax, you know, I don't even remember how that was now. And I actually

767
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:27,920
found that, and this is maybe this comes part of this as being a dad and being, you know, a male

768
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000
being a male identifying person.

769
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,640
But I definitely found the infant time,

770
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,000
like a really wonderful time for me to both enjoy

771
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,000
this new thing of being a parent.

772
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,280
I'm talking about the one infant.

773
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,280
One or two, nevermind, all out the window.

774
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,400
And also like keep my sort of like hobby,

775
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,800
creative coding kind of life going.

776
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,000
my sort of like hobby, creative coding kind of life going,

777
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,280
mostly just because one, I have a partner, a wife,

778
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,280
who is, you know, breastfeeding.

779
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,140
And so a lot of that responsibility, you know,

780
00:35:06,140 --> 00:35:09,000
was not on me, but, and there was so much time

781
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,840
where I've just like, oh, I have this baby in a carrier

782
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,280
and he's sleeping and I'm just like taking a walk

783
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,400
or typing, just remember, I have all these memories

784
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,300
and he's sleeping and I'm just like taking a walk

785
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:16,440
or typing, just remember, I have all these memories

786
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,440
and maybe I'm romanticizing it now

787
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,680
of like sleeping baby, I'm like coding.

788
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,720
So maybe that's an anomaly,

789
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,040
but I think really once we hit the toddler stage

790
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,800
and it's like running around child,

791
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,880
then there's two children, I don't even know.

792
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,160
I can't tell you how I did anything in the last 13 years.

793
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,320
I feel like it's coming back now

794
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,600
last 13 years. I feel like it's coming back now because they

795
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,760
really are at this age. There's a there's a level of

796
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,000
independence, which is new. There's a lot more fighting

797
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,080
going on in our house now. I think again, like there's a lot

798
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,360
more managing different personalities and moments, but

799
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,520
no, no, we all have memories of coding while the child was in

800
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,320
fact, even Kyle said that. I mean, of course, our reference

801
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,280
while the child, in fact even Kyle said that, I mean of course our reference was you, that

802
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,480
we would both be watching, you know, coding train videos while trying to get the kid to

803
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,320
sleep, oops, my past one way, while trying to get our kids to fall asleep or like, you

804
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,840
know, like they're just kind of waiting in between like diaper changes and you're trying

805
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,200
to do a little bit of like a sign wave or whatever. So we have those memories, so you're

806
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:29,000
So you're not romanticizing, I think it's pretty much what happens.

807
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,840
But yeah, it's very interesting to see.

808
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,440
It's like not only have you kind of put so much out there for us to learn from,

809
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,040
but I think we are also maybe learning from you as a parent about all this new

810
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,440
stuff that's going to happen and coming, are we?

811
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040
So that's very interesting. I just wanted to, I mean,

812
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,600
we don't want to take up too much more of your time, but maybe we can just maybe

813
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:54,000
up to much more of your time, but maybe we can just maybe talk a little bit about, I think this

814
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,880
year you've been, and you mentioned it a few times that you've been on sabbatical. So it's a bit about

815
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:04,080
your own care and perhaps like, just to people adjacent to you and your family. So if you could

816
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,280
maybe share a bit about that and how it's kind of things have been different. Yeah, so first,

817
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,960
this opportunity, it really everybody,

818
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,700
you know, it's just an important part of life

819
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:20,620
to be able to find ways to take breaks

820
00:37:20,620 --> 00:37:24,320
and take care of yourself in addition to being productive

821
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,440
and taking care of other people

822
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:26,680
and all of those kinds of things.

823
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,440
So this is not my first sabbatical the way it works.

824
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,080
This is my second.

825
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,840
So I had a sabbatical in 2015.

826
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,520
Actually, back in 2015, that's really actually

827
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,440
Back in 2015, that's really actually,

828
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,440
the first sabbatical kind of launched

829
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,120
the coding train in a way.

830
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,080
Because I had been making videos

831
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,860
and I think I did some live streams before that sabbatical,

832
00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:52,660
but I went away and I was in London.

833
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,520
I did a residency at NYU London,

834
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,080
and one that was such an incredible

835
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,120
family bonding experience.

836
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,720
So something about the four of us being away

837
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,000
family bonding experience.

838
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,620
So something about the four of us being away,

839
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:09,380
and, you know, culturally, London is not that different

840
00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:10,540
from living in New York.

841
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,140
So it wasn't an extreme cultural difference,

842
00:38:13,220 --> 00:38:15,920
but we were in Europe, we were in a different place,

843
00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:20,440
we didn't know anybody, and so it felt like an adventure.

844
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,480
And so one thing I would just say is,

845
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,640
if you have that opportunity to, as a family,

846
00:38:25,740 --> 00:38:27,440
take adventures like that,

847
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,240
to, as a family, take adventures like that.

848
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:31,740
To me, that was one of my favorite times of life

849
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,540
was that semester, just that one semester

850
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,380
we spent together in London and all the kinds of...

851
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,480
I could go on forever about all the things we did

852
00:38:38,580 --> 00:38:40,180
and fun that we had.

853
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,820
But I do think, like, for me, that time

854
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,820
was both incredibly special family-wise,

855
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,260
but I think I also, whether it was intentional or not,

856
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,700
I had a lot of time there.

857
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,160
Also, whether it was intentional or not, I had a lot of time there.

858
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,280
The project I was working on was the second edition of the learning processing book.

859
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,440
But I was also just sort of experimenting and thinking about video.

860
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,440
And it was at the tail end of that that I started uploading a lot of these videos that

861
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,000
I had made to YouTube and kind of like came back to starting the coding train.

862
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,340
So I think right now I'm in a similar place.

863
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,380
We didn't go to London, but I'm living outside of New York City,

864
00:39:17,380 --> 00:39:23,220
which I lived in New York City or in Manhattan and Brooklyn since 95,

865
00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:24,800
since I graduated from college.

866
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,420
And so this is, other than that one semester I spent in London,

867
00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:31,680
we're spending a year, just about two hours north of New York City

868
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,860
in the Hudson Valley, which is a beautiful area.

869
00:39:34,860 --> 00:39:38,940
And we have a place where we're staying, which I have this huge,

870
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,760
where we're staying, which I have this huge,

871
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,920
by New York City standards, gargantuan,

872
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,640
but just basically like a big garage.

873
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,640
And so I've never had that kind of space at home

874
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,400
where I've been able to set up kind of like a workshop.

875
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,360
So just sort of like a mental space

876
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,900
of having that physical space to work

877
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:57,660
has been really wonderful while being on sabbatical,

878
00:39:57,660 --> 00:40:00,500
being in a new place, discovering new things

879
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,320
with the family in terms of going on hikes,

880
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,080
or, you know, we have a yard here,

881
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,440
new things with the family in terms of going on hikes or, you know, we have a yard here. So we're

882
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,440
like, hey, we go instead of going to like the park. I do kind of miss actually like really

883
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,080
miss Prospect Park in Brooklyn. There's something actually really special about like we would go to

884
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,080
the park and play catch or play frisbee or have a picnic or whatever. But you got to like gather

885
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,560
up all of your stuff and your blankets and your things. And it's like a 10 minute walk to there.

886
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,360
So it is something quite new that's been really nice about like, you know, we have a little

887
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,120
that's been really nice about, like, you know,

888
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,400
we have a little basketball hoop

889
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,920
and we go outside and we play catch.

890
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,720
So that's been sort of special to have that kind of time

891
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,800
as a family on sabbatical.

892
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,800
Yeah, so that's kind of my experience right now.

893
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,800
I feel like I still haven't really gotten settled

894
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,440
and I don't know that I ever will,

895
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,120
like because so much of this first since January

896
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,860
has been trying to set up this studio space

897
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000
since January has been trying to set up this studio space

898
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,000
and trying to get some momentum working on a new,

899
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,000
I'm working on a new Coding Train website,

900
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,000
a new edition of The Nature of Code book.

901
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,000
I'm probably trying to do too many things.

902
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,000
So I need to regroup this summer and kind of like set some realistic goals

903
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,000
and kind of map out how to find that balance

904
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,000
between all the stuff we're talking about,

905
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,000
like going on hikes and playing catch and watching movies at night

906
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,200
talking about like going on hikes and playing catch and watching movies at

907
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:21,840
night and going to the kids games and activities at school as well as like

908
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,640
accomplishing some of these coding train and related goals so at some point next

909
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,120
year I'm gonna go back to teaching my classes again and we'll see I think if I

910
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:35,400
can get get some new workflows and new ideas and some projects done I'll be in

911
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,240
a good place for that

912
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,000
for that.

913
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:49,920
Care Of is a spin-off of Computational Mama's live coding stream called Coding With Friends.

914
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,560
Coding With Friends casually and simply claims spaces for women creators.

915
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,760
The series extends the idea of live coding as a form of camaraderie, friendship and care.

916
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,520
But after two seasons of Coding With Friends, it seemed crucial to extend these conversations

917
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,520
But after two seasons of coding with friends, it seemed crucial to extend these conversations

918
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,560
in a pre-recorded format where the invited guests can talk more intimately about their

919
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,880
work, their lives and their ideas of care.