EP22: Subtext and Stereotype: Queer Coding, Representation, & Villainy, Pt.1
Feb 12, 2024Season 1Episode 22
Jenene & Kit
Unlock the secrets of queer coding in media as we navigate the delicate dance of subtext and stereotype, revealing the hidden messages that have historically signposted LGBTQ representation. With a spotlight on the tantalizing yet unfulfilled queer storylines of "Supernatural," we traverse a landscape peppered with both frustration and admiration. Our journey doesn't stop with queer coding, as we dissect other coding phenomena, such as autism and black coding, and underscore the urgency for mindful representation in children's shows. We welcome you to connect and reflect with us as we unpack the intricate layers of cultural significance and personal resonance tied to these narratives.
As we pay tribute to the iconic Ursula, the sea witch of "The Little Mermaid," who owes her flamboyance to the legendary drag queen Divine and lyricist Howard Ashman's insightful vision, we also debate the impact of casting choices in the live-action adaptation. The episode takes a heartfelt turn through the cherished memories evoked by classic Disney villain songs, stirring a mix of nostalgia and critique. Join us in questioning the implications of Disney's decision to remove "Hellfire" from the Hunchback of Notre Dame remake, as our guests and I explore the far-reaching influence of these cultural touchstones on our lives.
Unlock the secrets of queer coding in media as we navigate the delicate dance of subtext and stereotype, revealing the hidden messages that have historically signposted LGBTQ representation. With a spotlight on the tantalizing yet unfulfilled queer storylines of "Supernatural," we traverse a landscape peppered with both frustration and admiration. Our journey doesn't stop with queer coding, as we dissect other coding phenomena, such as autism and black coding, and underscore the urgency for mindful representation in children's shows. We welcome you to connect and reflect with us as we unpack the intricate layers of cultural significance and personal resonance tied to these narratives.
As we pay tribute to the iconic Ursula, the sea witch of "The Little Mermaid," who owes her flamboyance to the legendary drag queen Divine and lyricist Howard Ashman's insightful vision, we also debate the impact of casting choices in the live-action adaptation. The episode takes a heartfelt turn through the cherished memories evoked by classic Disney villain songs, stirring a mix of nostalgia and critique. Join us in questioning the implications of Disney's decision to remove "Hellfire" from the Hunchback of Notre Dame remake, as our guests and I explore the far-reaching influence of these cultural touchstones on our lives.
A lot of the times they just steal the vibe of a queer person and shove it in a character you know. Ursula, on the other hand, I would say, is a very different story from your average queer coded character. She is a step above.
Speaker 2:
There's so much queer coding in music and movies and it's just, it's, it's crazy, it's incredible. This can be like an entire sector of queer history studies and more.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely and as one of those things where like, even like, the information I gathered doesn't even touch on music. I do doesn't even touch. There's so much queer coding in music and it's crazy to think about which. By the way, if anyone would like an episode specifically about music, come to our socials and leave a comment and we will absolutely, you know, take you up on that.
Speaker 2:
I love music so much and I actually started to dive into the queer coding and music, so I would love to do a separate episode on that if people want it.
Speaker 1:
I think yeah, like because at the end of the day, I feel like that needs its whole own episode, or else this is just going to go on for like two or three hours with just how much there is. Yeah.
Speaker 2:
So let's first define what exactly is queer coding and what does it reference, so that people can better understand what it is. So, as far as I understand it, queer coding is a concept both in the discussion of media portrayal of the LGBTQ people, in academic research involving queer theory or gender studies, and basically it refers to the practice of imbuing characters or elements in media with traits, behaviors, characteristics that are essentially associated with the LGBTQ people or identities, without explicitly stating or confirming that character's sexual orientation or gender identity.
Speaker 1:
So it basically just uses things like subtext and, a lot of the time, stereotypes to portray a character as queer to the audience, without actively having to state that character is queer, or show them with their partner or anything like that.
Speaker 2:
Right, it could actually be open to interpretation.
Speaker 1:
And while it allowed for a lot of queer artists to be able to show themselves on the screen in a time when they couldn't do two things, like the Hayes Code, which we will get into, it also unfortunately led to a lot of people just using harmful stereotypes to portray characters that were queer. Quote unquote without having to actually state that and risk repercussions. So do you want to?
Speaker 2:
tell the listeners what the difference between queer coding and queer baiting is.
Speaker 1:
Right. So queer coding is, like we said, it's the use of subtext and stereotype throughout specific characters in order to elude it their sexuality, without actually having to state it Queer baiting. On the other hand, looking at you supernatural if you've ever seen it, then you know what queer baiting is. Spoiler alert, but queer baiting is the act of continuously hinting at or prompting toward queer storylines in your TV shows or movies in order to attract a queer audience, without actually giving them the representation that they're there for. Perfect example of that supernatural is Dean and Castiel. Their relationship is hinted at from practically the moment Cass enters the screen in season four and throughout their entire relationship, to the point where, at the very end, it's finally admitted Cass is like I've been in love with you this whole time before going to Superhell. That's so wrong Because you know supernatural. Look at bury your queers and said hold my beer. It makes me fighting mad. It makes me fighting mad as someone who considered a supernatural tattoo for years and may still end up getting one because of how much that show meant to me. I didn't even finish it because of just to find out it was just bait. Oh, the whole time, like literally, they waited until the last moment of the last episode to finally be like they're gay, they're in love, or at least Cass loves Dean, and then Superhell not taking it. Not even just hell, super hell. That's like hell 2.0.
Speaker 1:
So, along with queer coding, there is also other types of coding that you'll see immediately. For example, you'll see characters that are autism coded, or coded to have autism or autistic traits, without actually stating that this character is autistic. There's also black coded characters, specifically in animation. You will find a lot of characters that show that have voice actors or mannerisms, ways of dress, things of that nature that are considered stereotypically black, and that character, that animated character, will then be considered black coded. A perfect example of that would be Knuckles from Sonic, especially looking at the most recent movie trailers featuring him. It's very obvious that they're absolutely leading into that with the coming movie, but it's something that's been evident throughout his character since its inception.
Speaker 2:
Man, I remember playing that video game when I was like 10 years old. It's interesting, like what you don't pick up on as a kid too, just because of the subtleties and things.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, even like again. What we'll be going into is the fact that a lot of these queer coded characters show up in children's content, and it's not like children have the social wherewithal to be able to pick out what's harmful and what isn't, and so it's up to us, when sitting down and watching these movies with them, to pause throughout and be like hey, just so you know that that's a harmful stereotype. It's important to have these conversations with our children because they're not going to be able to pick it out on their own until they're much older and then realize like, oh, that was using harmful stereotypes about something that I now identify as that movie now hurts my feelings when it used to be my favorite movie.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that subtlety is exactly the point. Let's dive into the Hayes Code.
Speaker 1:
So the Hayes Code, which is kind of the birthplace of where queer coding comes from. The reason why queer characters couldn't just be on screen was because of the rollout of the Hayes Code, which happened in the 1930s.
Speaker 2:
The Hayes Code was implemented was established in 1930, but I think it wasn't really enforced until 1934. But it was in response to the increasing conservatism and the government censorship threats at the time. And what it did was it banned explicit LGBTQ characters from the TV screen. But you know, like anything else, you're going to have those who flex the rules. So these coded representations actually persisted. They just began to blend the stereotypes and the subtext. But what the Hayes Code was is it was a standard for what was allowed to be shown on the big screen and, according to the code, films were not allowed to portray quote perverse subjects such as homosexuality, which inevitably led to the portrayal of non explicit queer characters, which gave a reason and a birthplace for the queer coding. So characters like the Countess, for example, were occasionally permitted on the screen, especially and we'll get into this but especially when associated with the villainy, which allowed more apparent depictions of the same-sex desire to basically navigate the restrictions imposed by the code.
Speaker 1:
It's interesting because the Haze Code did not just affect the portrayal of queer characters on the big screen. The Haze Code also prohibited nudity, suggestive dance, blasphemy, ridicule of religion, illegal drug use, mentions of STDs, interracial relationships, childbirth, detailed crime and swearing. So there were many things that the Haze Code tried to cover under their umbrella, many of which fell under the aspect of the civil rights interracial relationships, homosexuality, even childbirth. When it came to things like feminism and the feminist movement trying to be more open about the natural aspects of a human body and life, banning childbirth from screen is another way of kind of setting all of those movements back.
Speaker 2:
And they did it under the umbrella of trying to make things more moral or stay in that moral lane, and anything outside of that was considered a little bit too risky, absolutely.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and it's kind of one of those things where, like, we love to look back on these queer coded characters fondly because, at the end of the day, we're allowed to, they're a part of us. But it's very important to remember that all of them are born out of harmful stereotypes and a lot of them end up being villains, and a lot of them end up being villains in children's things, which portrays queer people in a naturally bad light. Here's looking at you Disney Like. Look at any of Disney movies from the Disney Renaissance and you will find a queer coded villain in there. I promise you they are right there.
Speaker 2:
We have some examples, but Kit don't say gay. You get my reference there. I did, I appreciate it that.
Speaker 1:
So some very well-known examples of queer coding in Disney films are Hades from Hercules I mean, look at him, he's literally flaming. He's literally flaming. I will leave it there. Captain Hook from Peter Pan he has eyeliner all the time. I think he even cries it off at one point, if I'm remembering correctly. I believe it smears. At least it doesn't hook. I know damn well it doesn't hook In hook. His eyeliner is all over his face.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's not right.
Speaker 1:
There's Scar from the Lion King, and actually Captain Hook and Scar are also perfect examples of villains who are disabled. That's something else you'll see very often in fantasy content, horror content and children's content is villains portrayed as people with disabilities which, or because he has a scar on his face, he's depicted as ugly and scary, yes, and unlikeable and unlovable. Captain Hook is literally named after having a lack of a hand. His whole identity is just about not having a hand.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's like there's a magnifying glass on the disability.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely, and even Scar's name is his scar. It's one of those things where it absolutely puts a light, a heightened lens, on the disability and it also makes children want to be afraid of disability. It makes disability scary and in the olden days of fairy tales, these fairy tales, the modern things that are based on, you know, like the monster of those tales being that book's version of a disabled person. Right, and it's because of the fact that monsters were meant to represent marginalized people. Back then. That was the purpose. The purpose of monster books was to represent the marginalized. Monsters were marginalized in their, you know, in their context, in their books, in their stories. It's one of those things where it's understandable back then why things like that were done like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.
Speaker 1:
But nowadays, looking at you, modern authors, we need to stop having an ableist checkpoint. We need to stop having to have a certain amount of disability in our antagonists in order for it to feel right. How about we? Just we don't. Or if we're going to have disability, actually we should, because we should be showing a vast array of human experience do it right, show them as just people, show us as just people like everyone else, and it seems like that's what's at this point it is, with having you know ableist tropes in fantasy things and having your villains be disabled and things like that, and it again it teaches disabled kids that they should be feared and that you know they're not going to be accepted by their peers, and it teaches other kids, everyone else, that that's totally cool and that that's just how it should be. We can't keep doing that and then looking around at the world that we've built and saying I wonder why everyone's so mean to each other. I don't know. You tell me, yeah, why is everyone so mean to each other?
Speaker 2:
It's like back in the 1980s you had villains in Disney films, but you know that's in the beginning, when you first started seeing queer coding kind of more I guess less subtly on the scenes for the queer community. Yeah, but it wasn't done in this way. That capitalized on they didn't capitalize on the stereotypes.
Speaker 1:
It was capitalizing on the same stereotypes that people would use to mock us, exactly Without trying to do any work against, like perpetuating them. It would perpetuate those same stereotypes, which would only let them be used against us even more, which it just creates a never ending cycle.
Speaker 2:
Back in the 1980s and then that kind of evolved into the 90s where you see like the beauty and the beast right, and then you see Aladdin and Jafar, and I mean Jafar was so queer coded.
Speaker 2:
Oh my God, yeah, but Beauty and the Beast and Jafar were both created by an openly gay animator named Andreas Deha and sang music by Howard Ashman, who was also openly gay. So I just thought that was really cool because back before the villains started capturing queer people in a negative light, there was some cool things going on too behind the scenes and film.
Speaker 1:
No, I have a fantastic little thing about Howard Ashman coming up. I love it. So some more queer Disney villains, maleficent and definitely feeling, especially in the more reason adaptations. She's pretty, she's pretty lesbian coded. I don't know, Maybe that's just fate, but she's pretty badass though.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, one of my niece's favorite movies.
Speaker 1:
Listen, I hate most of Disney's live action adaptations by do? I hate most of them. The way that they were able to connect the loss of her wings to the idea of being essayed floored me, absolutely, rocked my fucking world. Like I needed to pause the movie and just sit there for a minute because I was like, oh, I know, I know what that is, oh, but it's whole, that was phenomenally done. That I chef's kiss, that was beautiful Chef's kiss. But Jafar Aladdin? So again, he has eyeliner the whole time and he fights with his bird.
Speaker 1:
There's one thing I know queer people do is yell at their pets all the time and just talk to them as if they're talking back. Dr Facilier from Princess and the Frog Vance has his little crop top. I love him, he's perfect. Jumba and Pliikli from Lilo and Stitch, who are literally me and my boyfriend I remember you saying that before, literally me and my boyfriend. You send him a picture of like the two of them, from Lilo and Stitch, standing there like this and I was like us, so cute, oh, cool.
Speaker 1:
And then the last, but certainly not least, ursula from the Little Mermaid, and this is where the fun, the fun facts with Howard Ashman comes in. So Ursula. So one of the things with queer coding that it gets a lot of plaque and hate, and rightfully so, is the fact that a lot of the times they just steal the vibe of a queer person and shove it in a character you know. Ursula, on the other hand, I would say, is a very different story from your average queer coded character, because Ursula was directly based on a real life queer person.
Speaker 1:
Whereas most queer coded characters are just based on the idea of queerness, ursula was directly based upon the drag queen, divine. Her character design, her makeup, her body type, her voice, everything about her was based around divine. This is because of Howard Ashman. Howard Ashman was the one who fought for her to look the way she did, be so very extravagant and out there and boisterous and loud and and just so her, and it really made Ursula a forever living embodiment of divine. It almost like a tribute to this drag queen, which I don't know, I feel like puts it a little bit above queer coding. I feel like that puts Ursula on on a step above, because she's she is a step above. She is directly based upon a real life person and now can forever live on through poor, unfortunate souls as divine. Yeah, and that's really cool.
Speaker 2:
She reminds me of opera. You know where opera is. Just like so, not overdone, but it is, it's over, it's, it's embellished, it's big. You know what I mean? Like it's it's, it just trumps everything else. It's, it's action, it's yeah, I remember reading about Disney in the response to Don't Say Gay and how they were, you know, accused of not having appropriate representation for the LGBT community and it was suggested that if they truly cared about the representation that they could have made Ursula in the live action recreation.
Speaker 1:
Ursula should have been played by a drag queen, that or a trans woman. Ursula should have been played by either a drag queen or a trans woman.
Speaker 2:
100% yeah and it would be really cool.
Speaker 1:
I love Melissa McCarthy, but they could have done it better, because no one does facial expressions like a drag queen, you know. Yeah, Like those over the top, like borderline animation level expression. That's what I'm talking about. That's what we needed. Yeah, we needed borderline animation levels of expression from Ursula. Yeah, and we just didn't get it.
Speaker 2:
Yep and the makeup, the high eyebrows, like the makeup, and the hair, the outfit, that's what that deserved. I mean, no, she was Ursula, but she had, you know, her little tentacles.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and also, for some reason they made her tried and sister in the remake. I don't know if she was tried and sister in the original. For some reason in the remake she's tried and sister. I don't remember if that was the case in the original. I know she has a sister in the original. She has a sister named Morgana, who comes in in the second one.
Speaker 2:
I don't remember that in the original.
Speaker 1:
Morgana is the villain of the second movie, which is about Ariel's daughter Melody.
Speaker 2:
That's very interesting, and I've seen the little mermaid, the original, a thousand times because my little sister used to watch it on replay when she was little.
Speaker 1:
Me, me, me, literally a four years old belt screaming part of your world While my father filmed me. I get it, I understand. Yeah, just standing in the living room all dressed up, going with a fake microphone, I get it. Gts, gts. That little mermaid is so good. But yeah, there's a sequel. It was a straight to VHS sequel, just like most of the 90s were. The late 90s, early 2000s had a bunch of straight to VHS sequels for all of those classics, like there was Return of Jafar for Aladdin or Aladdin Prince of Thieves, where he met his father.
Speaker 2:
I love that movie. I loved so Catchy.
Speaker 1:
I have struggled. I struggled to watch Aladdin nowadays because it just makes me like openly Angry, ugly cry. Well, yeah, it definitely makes me a little angry because of you know, like it was not culturally appropriate at all. It also just makes me ugly cry because my father and I we used to watch it together and we'd lay out a blanket and we'd sing Magic Carpet and we'd sit on our little Magic Carpet and my God, what a fantastic duet.
Speaker 1:
Since he's passed. That movie's a little rough. Yeah, that and Beauty and the Beast. I used to dance on his feet during Taylor's oldest time.
Speaker 2:
There's so many great duets in these movies, too, that we're talking about yeah it's like the music is so iconic and just.
Speaker 1:
And that's why Wish was such a disappointment. That new one that came out was such garbage. I didn't even see that and I was like this is their villain song. This is the villain song for a hundred years of animation. Oh no, that was done.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
The villain song is. Once you hear a bad villain song, you just know Like how, how can you do, Be Prepared? And then that Right. Be Prepared slaps.
Speaker 2:
Well, because the villain songs are known for being the catchiest. They're known for being like the pinnacle of the movie or the pinnacle of the show, the whole story line, you know.
Speaker 1:
Speaking of okay, small side tangent. Speaking of Disney villain songs, have you heard that they're making a remake of Hunchback of Notre Dame and they're removing Hellfire? I didn't hear that they're removing Hellfire. For what reason? Because it's sexist. Because because the whole time he's literally talking about the fact that his temptation, she is the devil. She's, but like, what's the plot? What's the conflict? What's what's the conflict? Tell me what's going to happen without Hellfire? I want to know you.