Autocorrect might not get it yet, but we're here to ensure that 'aromantic' doesn't come out smelling like a rose scent. This episode is all about peeling back the curtain on asexual and aromantic identities, the vibrant 'A' in LGBTQIA+. So chuckle along with my little mishap, and settle in for a rich dialogue that affirms the diversity of human experience. We're taking you on a journey through the dual split attraction model, celebrating the individual paths of self-discovery, and exploring the unique romantic and sexual orientations that make up the ace and arrow communities.
Ever wondered about the spectrum of identities under the ace umbrella? We've got you covered. From asexual to demisexual, graysexual, and even the lesser-known agosexual, we're pulling back the layers to reveal the rich tapestry of attraction—or lack thereof. No two stories are the same, and in this episode, personal reflections shine a light on the complexities and joys of embracing who you are. Plus, we're tearing down the walls of amatonormativity, opening up the conversation to include all forms of connections, because love is not one-size-fits-all.
Finally, let's talk visibility and the challenges faced by queer communities when their very identities become political battlegrounds. We honor historical figures like Emma Trauss, who forged a path for the asexual community long before the modern discourse took shape. It's a reminder of the persistence and resilience of those who dare to live authentically. So whether you're seeking support, looking to learn, or just here for the stories, this episode promises to enlighten and entertain by amplifying voices that too often go unheard.
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Autocorrect might not get it yet, but we're here to ensure that 'aromantic' doesn't come out smelling like a rose scent. This episode is all about peeling back the curtain on asexual and aromantic identities, the vibrant 'A' in LGBTQIA+. So chuckle along with my little mishap, and settle in for a rich dialogue that affirms the diversity of human experience. We're taking you on a journey through the dual split attraction model, celebrating the individual paths of self-discovery, and exploring the unique romantic and sexual orientations that make up the ace and arrow communities.
Ever wondered about the spectrum of identities under the ace umbrella? We've got you covered. From asexual to demisexual, graysexual, and even the lesser-known agosexual, we're pulling back the layers to reveal the rich tapestry of attraction—or lack thereof. No two stories are the same, and in this episode, personal reflections shine a light on the complexities and joys of embracing who you are. Plus, we're tearing down the walls of amatonormativity, opening up the conversation to include all forms of connections, because love is not one-size-fits-all.
Finally, let's talk visibility and the challenges faced by queer communities when their very identities become political battlegrounds. We honor historical figures like Emma Trauss, who forged a path for the asexual community long before the modern discourse took shape. It's a reminder of the persistence and resilience of those who dare to live authentically. So whether you're seeking support, looking to learn, or just here for the stories, this episode promises to enlighten and entertain by amplifying voices that too often go unheard.
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Want to see the video? Check us out on YouTube.
we do have some common distinctions for aromatic people that are important to know and just real quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just realized what my google docs did. My google docs auto-corrected aromantic to aromatic everywhere oh, I didn't even notice.
Speaker 1:I just said that out loud too, didn't I? Oh, oh, my God.
Speaker 2:Wait a minute, that's what that said no.
Speaker 1:what's so funny is there's so many definitions and A words that I just it went right over my head. Oh my God, please don't cut that out. I am definitely keeping that in. I'm pretty excited about this topic. Just, I feel like it's not really talked about much so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a fact. It's talked about so little that people think the A in the acronym stands for ally. That's crazy. That's how little people talk about asexuality and aromanticism is. People think the A in LGBTQIA plus stands for ally, like girl. No, you're not in our acronym, get out of here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a specific place for allies, and it's not here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we love you, we appreciate you, we adore you. You don't belong in our acronym, though. Exactly, yeah, I think it was my mom, bless her heart. I love her so much, but, like you know, she's older, she's I mean, she's my mom. She's not, you know, right, but it's. I think she thought that it stood for ally and I was like you're so cute, I love you so much and we love our allies.
Speaker 1:yes, and I give her credit for trying, just like any ally, you know oh yeah, absolutely, it was so cute.
Speaker 2:Uh and of course you know she's great about learning.
Speaker 1:She was like oh, buddy yeah, my bad, let me correct that real quick. It was very cute very wholesome nice.
Speaker 1:So today's topic is centered around asexual and aromantic people, and I can definitely see why there is a bit of confusion around these, so I'm hoping that we could get to providing some of the clarification for people and in doing so, I like the fact that we're actually, at the same time, creating a little bit more visibility for the Ace Arrow folks, more visibility for the ace arrow folks.
Speaker 1:Just wanted to also mention in the beginning here that identifying as asexual or aromantic is actually a significant part of somebody's identity and they are valid, just like any other sexual orientation. I was on Reddit treads in doing some of the research for this episode and it's very, very interesting how these types of conversations are actually happening underground, more so than on other platforms, because people just they're making assumptions about what they think these are, and it's the only place where arrow and ace people can actually have a conversation and create a little bit of community and camaraderie. So I thought that was very, very interesting. But in general, these shape a person, their experiences, their relationships with other people and, like I said, just like any other sexual orientation or identity, being ace or arrow is definitely valid and an essential aspect of who these people are, and we just need to understand them better so that we can better have conversations and that they become more visible and, just like any other community, they feel heard and accepted.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Something I do think it's important for us to touch on and an understanding to kind of have with, just like everyone, is the difference between asexuality and aromanticism in the idea of the difference between sexual orientation and romantic attraction. So, like, aromantic isn't necessarily a sexual orientation, it's more of a romantic attraction style, and that is all broken down with this whole thing called the dual split attraction model. I think it was called.
Speaker 1:So wait, just for clarity, also for my sake, for the rest of the episode. So asexual or asexuality is considered a sexual orientation, but aromanticism is more of an identity.
Speaker 2:It's a romantic attraction style, so it's not talking about who you're sexually attracted to. It's about who you're romantically attracted to. So a great way to break it down is something called the dual attraction model. People experience sexual and romantic attraction separately, meaning someone can feel romantically attracted to the opposite gender, the same gender or all of them, while not feeling sexual attraction, and vice versa. Someone can be bisexual and homoromantic, or homosexual and biromantic, so on and so forth. So you could feel romantically attracted to both genders, but only sexually attracted to the same gender or the opposite gender, and romantic and sexual attraction styles are split up.
Speaker 2:There are some people who prefer to think of their attraction style in one way, sexual and romantic being the same. But nowadays many people are splitting those things up and recognizing that there is a difference there which allows for different relationship styles, like queer platonic relationships, where it's kind of a mishmash between a romantic relationship and just like this deeply powerful friendship bond, right that makes sense yeah, it's just, it's really, really cool, but yeah, it's it also can be very, very confusing, like it takes a while to.
Speaker 2:You know, it's difficult to split that up, especially, I don't know, I don't know if it's the tism, but sometimes I I will struggle so deeply with, like, splitting it, like I don't know, I get it.
Speaker 1:It's yeah, just different combinations of things. I love, too, how everything seems to be on a spectrum, so I I feel like that also can add to the confusion, but I also feel like just like most adequate and accurate representation of life. You know, it's things are always on a spectrum. A lot of times they don't fit so neatly into this black and white box resonated more with me than others and I'm like oh, for example, I feel like I can be asexual a lot of the time, and it's not that I'm not sexually attracted to other people or that I'm disinterested in sex, but I definitely go through these we'll call them these periods of time where I'm just totally disinterested in it. And I don't know if it's because I'm older. I don't know if it's because I'm doing more exploration into my own sexuality and identities and everything that now this stuff is start like wow, we have terminology for this now, like how cool. But I just love that piece of everything's on a spectrum.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. I thoroughly appreciate that about every aspect of queerness and again, that might just be like tism thing, I I love the fact that everything with life is on a spectrum. There is no black and white. Everything is different shades of of gray, or different shades of of whatever colors it it. You know there is no such thing as an entirely black and white world and entirely black and white. You know anything. It just everything is different shades of gray. Everything has I don't want to say nuance, because I feel like sometimes nuance is used as a way of making a situation sound too complicated to be talked about, so it's not worth it. You know what I mean. I feel like nuance has been co-opted by the wrong people to make people not want to talk about certain things that just require a little bit more communicating. That doesn't mean they're not worth it. They just require more communicating, they require deeper levels of understanding that they're still worth it. But yeah, my brain is going 800 different directions today.
Speaker 1:I thought it was really cool that both asexual and aromantic people can be referred to under the umbrella of a spec or ace spec identities, so that encompasses the full spectrum of asexual and aromantic experiences. And I know we're going to get into this, but that's basically like where the arrow ace comes in, and the gray sexual and the demisexual and the I don't know if I'm pronouncing this right, but is that agosexual? Is that the last one?
Speaker 2:Oh goodness, oh you don't have that one on your list.
Speaker 1:I don't think I do so. Agosexual, it's A-E-G-O sexual and it basically is someone who experiences arousal without feeling sexual attraction. Gotcha, so differentiated between the two. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure. That's why we're hashing this out. I didn't see that in your notes. When we get through it, we'll recoup. And to our listeners Bear with us. This is new territory for us, so we're trying to make sense of everything, make the best sense of everything, I should say.
Speaker 2:So asexuality which I love is also called ace as a huge fan of the X-Men gambit, I just love that personally Is an identity term for people who experience little to no sexual attraction or interest in sexual activity. Like much of life, asexuality exists on a spectrum where people may experience little, no or conditional sexual attraction. So, yeah, and then there's, you know, some different terms and identities that fall under the, a spectrum that we should be aware of as we're moving forward. Would you like to jump into the?
Speaker 1:first one, yeah, sure. So the first one is allosexual, and that is the opposite of asexual, which means that allosexual people actually experience sexual attraction.
Speaker 2:And then there's graysexual, also called graysexual one word. So there's grayasexual, so that's also called graysexual as one word, or grayace. Those who are grayasexual may rarely experience sexual attraction or only under certain circumstances. So it's just another one of those like falling somewhere along that spectrum of asexuality, one of those like falling somewhere along that spectrum of asexuality. And then the last one, which I don't know the more I learn about demisexual, which is the last one, the more I'm like you know that I totally understand that. I don't quite know if I would say that would I would identify as demisexual just because I'm not. I'm still exploring my identities, we'll see kind of thing. But like that is very much something that I'm like I could totally understand, like 100%. Those who are demisexual only experience sexual attraction when they have a close emotional bond with someone. So it's only after they experience a very close emotional connection with someone will they experience a sexual attraction.
Speaker 1:So for me, this one totally resonated, totally tracked as well. It really jumped out at me. I was like, wow, that energetically I connect with that. It made me think of somebody said to me recently they were like I would never date that person because I'm not attracted to them and I thought in my mind I was like, wow, that that's. I understand that.
Speaker 1:Right, you have to have some degree of attraction to some point, right, something, whether it's sexual or non sexual, there's something that's going to pull you in toward that person, going to pull you in toward that person. But in my mind I was like, well, what about just being open to getting to know the person and then falling in love with them because you love them as a person and what they stand for, and I don't know? I feel like this is kind of similar where you're not initially maybe attracted due to a sexual attraction, but you develop this close bond with them. You're it's an emotional bond, but you're developing it because you like hanging out with the person and then all of a sudden they become sexually attracted to them and that, like we said, could be on a on a spectrum, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, it becomes something more, and yeah, yeah, no, that's entirely fair. I definitely feel like that's where different relationship styles really come in and that's where asexuality and aromanticism really provides a freedom for all of us from the expectations of heteronormative relationships, where we can find that connection from people without necessarily. The human experience does not require romance, you know, like the human experience does not require.
Speaker 1:Or a sexual attraction.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I feel like asexuality finally opens up the modern human experience to that idea of you don't someone you don't need that like, and that is so freeing, especially as someone who for very long struggled with being in love with the idea of love, you know, and definitely ended up in some very toxic situations because I was so in love with the idea of love and I remember my godmother telling me that at like 12. She was like you're in love with the idea of love more than you are, whatever person, and I was like no, what are you talking about Now, 27? I'm like if I could go back in time and backhand myself, for one thing, it would be that it would be not listening to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I love what you're saying, though, about breaking the narrative of the heteronormative cycles. We'll call them I just. I love that because I've always been the type of person that I'm attracted to people, be it relationship or even friendships or even familial Right. I'm more attracted to people based on their intellect. Familial right, I'm more attracted to people based on their intellect. I don't know why I've always been that way. I'm like, wow, let me lick your brain. That's so hot, you're so intellectual. No, really, I get it.
Speaker 1:So, to me, sexual attraction is not in my hierarchy of priority. It's not the thing that initiates relationship for me. That, for me, is kind of developed later. So I love that concept and, like you said, breaking the cycle of those heteronormative expectations, it's like to me in my mind, like that's shallow, what do you mean? You're not attracted to that person, so you're not going to give them a chance. Like they might be the most intellectual, they might be working for NASA, for all you know and you were just like oh, I'm not attracted to them, so never mind, I'm not interested. You know, that's fair. I totally that tracks for me. I totally can relate to that. So much, so yeah.
Speaker 2:That is entirely valid, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that and also with that, just so people have clarity with the difference. Asexuality is not the same thing as celibacy. I know oftentimes those two are equated, especially in media and just everything that you read. That's not accurate. Celibacy actually is a choice someone makes to refrain from sex despite having sexual attraction. So it's not the fact that you lack sexual attraction, it's the choice to abstain from it.
Speaker 2:Precisely I say, and I think that's a good way to move into just the general poor media descriptions of asexuality, because the media has a very, very long history of poorly portraying and describing queerness as a whole.
Speaker 2:It doesn't even seem like they've gotten any better over the years, whereas with other sexualities and even, in some cases, gender identities, we've seen better representation, we've seen broader representation, we've seen more diverse representation, we've seen more accurate representation that's actually starring people who identify with the. You know who are these identities are actually written by people who are these identities, but even still it seems like asexuality a lot of the time falls behind. Trying to think of a video game that my partner and I were watching a playthrough of, where the main character was asexual and I can't remember it now, or maybe it was a TV show we were watching. I cannot remember what it was, but I remember be actually being very shocked that it it felt genuinely decent, like this, felt like something that was at least like asexuals were involved in the creation of it. You know, this wasn't something where people just looked at asexuality through like their own lens and was like this is what it's like, like this seems like an actual good thing. I'll post the name of it, if I can remember it.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry everyone. You're right though. That's cool, Because a lot of times, when there's somebody who is asexual in a certain scenario, it's like they have this stigma of being prude.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or even that they're portrayed as somehow broken or subjected to ridicule because of that fact. There you know the whole of. As a human rights campaign website puts it, the phrase sex sells is one representation of society and media's emphasis on sex as the be-all, end-all of personal fulfillment. Like the media and capitalism as a whole, you know that whole idea of sex sells. It places romantic and sexual fulfillment as the top pinnacle of personal fulfillment, which is just abhorrently false and also leads to a lot of piss. Poor portrayals of asexuality in the media. A lot of the times they're portrayed as immature, or characters who don't have sex in media are portrayed as shy or insecure rather than just disinterested in sex as a whole yeah, back, and what you were saying too about sex sells being like sort of the pinnacle of personal fulfillment.
Speaker 1:I think that in and of itself is broken even from the root, because it doesn't actually differentiate between intimacy and sex. Sex could be intimacy, it could be penetration, it could be, it could be a lot of things. And I think that concept in and of itself is so misleading that of course you know it's going to be more difficult to adequately represent asexual people within already that broken sort of mantra of sex in and of itself, the whole idea of it is specifically for one thing and one thing alone, Whereas in all actuality, like guys, there's a reason why the clitoris exists.
Speaker 2:It's the only organ in the entirety of any human body that exists solely for pleasure. There's a reason she's there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and fun fact the clitoris actually measures between nine and 11 inches long. Most people do not know that. They know it as a little kind of external bud at the top of the yeah in between the labias at the top of the.
Speaker 1:I'm going to call it the vulva, because, yeah, that's also another thing that's always mislabeled is the vagina. People look down and they think they see their vagina, when in actuality they see their vulva. The vagina is the opening, and so I mean we're just all kinds of fucked up, you know, like we don't understand, yeah, we don't understand our own anatomy, so how are we going to understand how to?
Speaker 2:kind of put the building blocks on top of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm almost 30. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I am 27.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, most of the clitoris is internal. Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.
Speaker 2:Will excuse me. I'm going to go build a time machine and go back in time to when Congress was deciding about sex education in schools during the HIV AIDS epidemic, and I'm just going to start throwing hooks. Wait, sex education. What's that, yeah, right no literally I'm going to go back in time to when that administration, when all that was, and I'm just going to start throwing hooks. I'm going to become the bitch that went back in time to deck someone in the throat.
Speaker 1:Sex education when I was growing up literally talked about abstinence and pretty much abstinence was the thing Don't have sex because you can get pregnant, so it's fear tactic and then, if you are, here's your birth control, but it mainly centered around heterosexual sex as in penetration. That's it. That's all it was there? Anything to deal with. Intimacy was taboo, like you were not allowed to feel sexual pleasure period end story.
Speaker 2:You can't even look at it you know there was nothing about like you know, just just anything. Yeah, so moving our whole education around just sex as a whole is just broken. It's extraordinarily influenced by conservative christian catholic lobbyists and things of that nature and institutions who have no right getting involved in the state because separation of church and state right but that's that's why we have so many challenges that are being faced by the asexual community, and challenges, actually, that asexual and aromantic individuals face.
Speaker 1:we'll call it the mainstream narrative, not saying it's the right one, but the mainstream narrative just having or creating supportive communities and challenging people's harmful ideas and attitudes and expectations. So phrases like oh, you just haven't met the right person yet is something that these people may often hear.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and there will even be instances where some asexual people have experienced essay or assault through being pressured into sexual experiences in in attempt to fix something that was never truly broken to begin with, which, if that has ever happened to you, I, I understand, I, I, I get it. Please, please, please, know that that was in no way, shape or form your fault. There was nothing you could have done to prevent that. There was nothing you did to cause that, even if you aren't being assaulted is just as valid as anyone else's. And and make sure you're surrounding yourself with people who understand that you need love and kindness and space and care.
Speaker 2:And, uh, you know our dms are open. I can help try to help you find, like you know stuff in your area. If, if I, if I can know what you know, like, what area you're in and stuff like that, our dms are open. I can help try to help you find like you know stuff in your area, if, if I, if I can know what you know, like, what area you're in and stuff like that, our dms are always open because that I, I've been there.
Speaker 1:It sucks yeah, the the fact that asexual and aromantic people and and, like you said, just anyone who's experienced that, that kind of trauma, um, but specifically to ace and arrow people, they are more likely to experience isolation. And there was a study done with over 40,000 LGBTQ plus youth and 10% of that study out of the 40,000 identified as being ace or arrow or somewhere on the spectrum and with that they also reported high levels of depression and anxiety compared to the rest of the lgbt sample. So basically what that's saying is that there's a more significant proportion of asexual youth identities and, you know, with that is just more feelings of isolation and erasure and just not being seen, not feeling heard, those kinds of things. So it's, I mean, it's really important to find community.
Speaker 2:Absolutely 100% and I think a really beautiful thing that has come from the asexual community's search for community and like love of just each other and everything like I don't know. I just think this is a really beautiful thing to have come from the queer community in general and it's queer platonic relationships. So some asexual and aromantic people interested in a relationship will end up in a queer platonic relationship and now you in no way have to be asexual or aromantic to be in a queer platonic relationship. There are some polyamorous people who are in you know their own relationships and then they have one of their relationships is a queer platonic relationships. As a poly person, you know they have multiple and one of those is a queer platonic relationships. As a poly person, you know they have multiple and one of those is a queer platonic relationship.
Speaker 2:Like there, there are many instances of people having queer platonic relationships without necessarily identifying as ace or arrow, and I just wanted to make sure that that's understood. Um, love, that uh, you can be in a queer platonic relationship with one or more partners. These relationships break the understood norms of both friendships and romance and exist along a spectrum depending on the people in the relationship, so they may involve a greater degree of commitment or intimacy, but do not necessarily include sexual or intimate elements. So, for example, they could, you know, sleep in the same bed, cuddle at night, live in the same house. Well, you know. But they Exactly. But but you know, either one of them, that's their only relationship and the other one, like, has another partner that they go spend weekends with, and they do X, y and Z.
Speaker 1:So essentially, what you're saying is it's OK to do whatever you want to do, whatever works for you, whatever feels normal and comfortable for you, and then now we have language to sort of parallel who we are and how we express yes, so long as you are being open and communicative with the other people, that anyone else that is involved in here.
Speaker 2:That is a huge thing that I have to make sure I talk about when it comes to, and just make sure you are any relationship any relationship exactly yes, that is key for any relationship period of the story, it doesn't matter it just that's human dynamics.
Speaker 1:You know the the more you're better able to communicate and the more you communicate and the more transparent you are. And earlier than later, I think, the better chance you have for overall just success and health or healthy dynamics with other humans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like it's just yeah, absolutely, just make sure to talk with your people, Just talk with your people. But yeah, I love queer platonic relationships. I think they are fantastic.
Speaker 1:So cool. All this stuff is just making me look at my life and going huh, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Real, I get it.
Speaker 1:That's what that's called, okay.
Speaker 2:Real, I understand. I get it. Yeah, so the Asexual Pride flag was created by aven, which is the asexuality visibility and education network. They held a contest on their forum boards to create and vote on a pride flag for the asexual community. The design was posted by user stand up on june 30th 2010 and it got voted on and that was the one they ended up picking, and I think it's really nice. Personally, I really like asexuality pride flag, though then again, I very much like in just my personal style have a very like black, purple, gray aesthetic, so I just thought that that was like.
Speaker 1:Oh, do you know that? Aven, the asexuality visibility and education network that you just spoke of, they were actually founded in 2001. Love that. Yeah, there's also asexuality visibility day, which I didn't know, which is super cool, and that's celebrated on april 6th. That was founded in 2010 by david jay and he's the head of AVEN.
Speaker 2:Well, happy belated Asexuality Visibility Day. Sorry y'all, we had a rough April. We did. We had a really, really rough April. I don't know about you guys, but April has been hell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll totally create a lot of noise moving forward, and especially on April 6th 2025. Moving forward, and especially on April 6th 2025. But essentially Asexuality Visibility Day. It aims to raise awareness and celebrate the full asexual spectrum and it focuses on education, the solidarity around what it means to be asexual and then, like we were saying earlier, the nuanced differences between asexual and aromantic and with the goal of shining a light on asexual people. Fantastic.
Speaker 2:I'd say, in the colors of the asexuality flag, the black is for asexuality, the gray is for gray asexuality and demisexuality, while the white is for non-asexual partners and the purple is for community.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love the use of purple in all things, especially the anti-bullying thing. So it kind of makes sense that it stands for community, because those two things kind of really parallel really nicely.
Speaker 2:No, I totally agree. And purple is also the cancer awareness ribbon, which is so I used to have a lot of like purple ribbon stuff from when my father was sick and like right after he had passed and I did all the Relay for Life stuff and all of that was very purple oriented.
Speaker 1:So I always love seeing what cancer specifically do you know?
Speaker 2:He had Hodgkin's lymphoma in his 20s and the treatment that they did on it in his 20s. They basically told him that it would probably bring it back at some point in his life in a much more aggressive form. And that's exactly what happened. Right around the time he was 40. It started with a tumor in his neck and within three months it had spread to basically every single organ in his body.
Speaker 2:They almost wanted to like study his body for science. If he didn't have a kid, my godmother probably would have let them, but she didn't want to have to put me through any of that. So but yeah, they almost wanted to actually be able to take a look in there and try to figure out like how the cause it spread so fast, like it started and it was like, okay, it's a tumor in your neck, it's. It was like, okay, it's a tumor in your neck, it's still, it's an aggressive form of Hodgkin's lymphoma. By the second PET scan they didn't even know what kind of cancer to call it, because it was everywhere. It was in like his bones, it was in his lungs and it was one of those things where they were like we don't even know how to classify this right now. This is just cancer.
Speaker 1:So the purple is for Hodgkin's. Because my dad had lung cancer and the lung cancer ribbon is white, so there are different colors for different types.
Speaker 2:I am too. That's interesting Because I know just like Relay for Life in general, just kind of uses purple their whole thing is Interesting because I know breast cancer is pink. Yep, that's interesting the more you know.
Speaker 1:And also just a little dip into to my past yeah, yeah, and both of us with our, our late dads yeah, dead dad club with cancer yeah.
Speaker 2:Dead dads club yeah, that sucks yeah, I saw this video of this girl who was going to Las Vegas and the only t-shirt she packed was this like a shitty 90s print shirt that said my dad died, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt and I wanted it so bad.
Speaker 1:I've actually seen that. Hey, if it was broken in and really great material like almost the seek through kind that you can poke your thumb through and shit, I would totally wear that. Oh, my god, just for fun, because my dad would get a kick out of that. That's why?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, he was. He was always making jokes and shit. My dad would have laughed out loud at that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah no hesitation my dad had polio and so his legs were different lengths and whenever he met somebody new he would always make like a polio or handicap joke to kind of break the ice. He was so cute, yeah. When he was younger he was in the hospital with somebody across from him that was in an iron lung and he said I will never let my disability, I will never use it as an excuse or feel like a victim because my life could be like that. It could have been worse. So he was very jovial.
Speaker 1:He was always joking and just trying to fit in with people, because people would see his legs and they didn't know what to think or say or ask or they would get weird. And so my dad's like don't worry about it, polio, whatever, and he would just make a joke about it, just to kind of open up conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the whole idea. We've even touched on before, like the idea of like whose bruises are those to poke at? Yes, this is my thing. It's my thing to make fun of. I'm allowed to make fun of. You know, like that's that is. I appreciate that, like we said, depends on the day, depends on the moment, absolutely, and it depends on the people.
Speaker 2:You know, there are some people that you don't really want to invite into something like that, but there are others that you know. You make a joke like that and then it's like it's okay, like you didn't get, we can. We can go back and forth with this. We're good, you know yeah totally.
Speaker 1:So before we jump forward to a romantic, do you want to talk about the dual attraction model Again? I know you mentioned it at the beginning, but maybe it was kind of fast even for me to try to like process all of that.
Speaker 1:So maybe do you want to just sort of jump into that and we can kind of unpack it a little bit. Yeah, that's fair. Sorry about that. No, no, nothing to be sorry about. No, I'm just for me cause I'm I'm high functioning, but I also like to really take the time to let a concept sink in so that I know I fully understand it and can be articulate in talking about it. And so I'm trying to wrap my mind around the dual attraction model. It seems pretty straightforward but I think, because I've looked at it a little bit, it makes more sense now because I've had time for it to integrate. But I think people listening to the episode, maybe we can just unpack it a little bit for them.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. Yeah, no, that that sounds perfect. So the dual attraction model is basically the whole idea of, or like the concept, the the relationship psychological concept I suppose you can call it of your sexual orientation and your romantic attraction being separate things, similarly to your gender identity and your sexual orientation. Think of it like the Zelda Triforce. There's a little third guy that just kind of is there. That's the Zelda Triforce of who you are. There's your boyfriend's going to hate.
Speaker 1:He's going to be like what was that?
Speaker 2:about he's such a Zelda nerd. That about such a zelda nerd. He's such a zelda nerd. He, he would love, he would genuinely love this, but also he would hate. He would hate it because I don't know what the fucking triforce is like. I don't you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I just know it's a triangle I was playing zelda when the original nintendo came out, after at after Atari, before Nintendo had all of its iterations. So that's how fucking old I am.
Speaker 2:I love that honestly. But so think of it like the Zelda Triforce. You've got your sexual orientation, your gender identity. I feel like that's pretty much the top of the Triforce, you know. It kind of like holds some shit together and keeps some shit. So, yeah, it's got your gender identity, your sexual orientation and then your romantic attraction. And while romantic attraction and sexual orientation can be exactly the same, they can also be completely different. You can be asexual and biromantic, you can be aromantic and pansexual. You can be pansexual and homoromantic. You can be, and basically just whatever the first part is for the sexual, like pansexual, homosexual, bisexual, whatever that first part is, that, that Latin root just take it and slap romantic at the end of it instead of sexual and you'll pretty much have it right.
Speaker 1:I love that. That was a perfect unpacking. I don't need to really add anything to that because that's so straightforward.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I feel like that's the easiest way to think about, like, but wait, what is pansexual? But the other way, just take the root and slap.
Speaker 1:Slap it. Love that, Love that. I love that we have two of these different lenses of looking at our own expressions, you know, and now we have, like I said, the terminology that goes along with it. It's like it's so easy to just sum it up because the language just queer language in and of itself has evolved so much to help us to be able to better express ideas and different aspects about ourselves in just one word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's, I love it, I love it. So so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, three words, I feel like at the triangle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the triangle, exactly, but it allows for so much more self-acceptance and expression and no like again. We were talking about it the last time that we were able to record together the whole idea of learning more about yourself how do you not? Yeah, as as it's. So it's so cute. Actually, my bestie commented on our reel about that and it was like perpetual becoming baby and I said endless metamorphosis, let's go yeah, well, that's also in wicca.
Speaker 1:We're always in the process of becoming. It's like you're. It's, it's like this idea of you're constantly evolving.
Speaker 2:So it's not a new idea, it's even in judaism, that's a big part of yeah is the idea of perpetually becoming, endlessly learning, always exploring. And yeah, like I, even as one of the reasons that bones and I, my best bones, and I say perpetual becoming is actually because of ezra's music. That was something we got from just the theme of her music and the whole, that idea of just perpetually becoming, and I, I love that. I, like I said, I think if you, if you get tired of learning more about yourself, you must be boring, and I personally don't want to be around you because I don't really like boring people.
Speaker 1:Well, the mainstream narrative is that there are certain things at play that don't want us to really know our true power, because we are very powerful, you know, people who are allowing themselves to evolve are in the know and they have the potential to be very, very powerful. And if we all stepped into our power and then banded together, we have the capability and the potential to take down or revolutionize a nation, and that's scary. So that's why a lot of humans walk around not knowing that about themselves or in environments where that's not really supported or encouraged. So, yeah, yeah, but back to aromantic. Yes, I don't want to slight the aromantic people. Oh, it's valid.
Speaker 2:Valid, valid, valid. It's just there's so many tangents that can be gone off of very easily, just from like it's, I love it. Do you want to go into aromantic, or should I?
Speaker 2:I am so down okay, go for it aromantic is a spectrum identity term for people who experience little to no romantic attraction. Some feel no romantic attraction while others feel it rarely, experience it only under certain circumstances, have trouble distinguishing between romantic and other types of attraction or have some other pattern of attraction that doesn't fit societal norms. So aromanticism is definitely a little bit more complicated than asexuality, at least I personally feel, and I definitely think that's just because romantic attraction and romance and just that aspect of the trifecta is a little more complicated than the sexual aspect of the trifecta. It just kind of is, and I think that's why it's nice to see them split into two separate things rather than considered one in the same, because it allows for they have to be yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and people who are aromantic can still have really intense loving feelings. They're just not romantic in nature, so they can form emotional and personal connections and they can provide empathetic support to a friend or family member that's going through something. They can still love their friends and their family and their partners and they're still capable of loving, right. So just because they're aromantic doesn't mean that they're not capable of loving. So I just I felt that was important to kind of point that out, because there is a difference, right.
Speaker 2:It brings us back to the whole idea of there being different types of love.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, love is not just the sexual, the romantic, the intimate. In that aspect there is a spectrum of experience of love. Love in and of itself is also a spectrum emotion and similarly to other emotions, it is an emotion which means it can grow and fade and change and morph over time and start as romantic and become something else and like.
Speaker 1:it's the same as any other emotion, while also being more complicated in certain aspects yeah, sometimes I think part of the challenge for arrow people might be and this is just total conjecture but after reading through the definitions I'm like, oh, I could see how this could be a challenge. But the concept of withholding like when you're in relationships and maybe you want to do something that is going to surprise your partner, like bring them flowers, I don't know things that would fall under being romantic and then if your partner doesn't reciprocate or they don't appreciate it as much, it doesn't mean that they're withholding or that they don't appreciate it. It's just, you know, they're just not romantic in nature. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:I think I see what you mean. I personally wouldn't, really. I just wouldn't know. You know what I mean. I in no way, shape or form, have any type of connection to the aromantic experience. As someone who spent so long having the toxic trait of being in love with the idea of love, I struggled to put myself in the shoes of aromanticism enough to even be able to imagine that. You know what I'm saying. That's just not something that I feel like I am knowledgeable enough or able to put myself in the shoes of someone enough to comment on.
Speaker 1:But perhaps yeah, it's just an idea.
Speaker 2:No, that's so valid. I was a silly fucking romantic bitch. I was the definition of the of the silly romantic a little hopeless maybe at times. I'm totally teasing you, oh beyond there you go.
Speaker 1:I'm totally the androgynous, chivalrous type. I always hold the doors. I always I don't know whatever I I yeah, chivalry hasn't died. We'll put it that way no, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's in no way. No, it's not anyone who says chivalry is dead, it needs to work through their misogyny, plain and simply. Yeah, facts like even, yeah, even if you're afab, internalized misogyny exists, baby, I don't know what else to tell you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry girl, go work on that so, just like asexual categories or the umbrella of asexuality, aromanticism has an umbrella as well spectrum labels. We have demi-romantic, we have gray romantic and we have I might need help with this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't actually know how to pronounce this one either.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'll just spell it for people Q U O I R O mantic, and then there's a slash and there's W T F R O mantic, and WTF romantic WTFROMANTIC. Wtfromantic, WTFROMANTIC yeah, that's yeah. Type A gets in the way sometimes.
Speaker 2:You're valid, I understand. So yeah, demiromantic, similar to demisexual, is under the aromantic umbrella and it's someone who experiences romantic attraction only after a deep emotional connection is developed. So again it's you. Take that Latin prefix and replace sexual with romantic. Most of the time you've got a proper understanding of the definition. That's being said. Gray romantic, similar to gray sexual, is also called gray aromantic. It's someone who feels romantic attraction rarely, weakly, unreliably, or gains, slash, loses romantic attraction under unknown or unusual circumstances.
Speaker 1:And weakly is W-E-A-K-L-Y, not, not w-e-e-k-l-y, because that would totally contradict the definition just saying no, real, real.
Speaker 2:And then the last one, which is very difficult to pronounce why romantic or wtf romantic? Someone who experiences confusion or frustration around differentiation between and applying platonic and romantic attraction to their personal lives and therefore unsure if they experience it, which, like god, I get that Totally. The Aromantic Spectrum Union for Recognition, education and Advocacy website had a small note for the definition of WTF romantic or choir romantic. No, this is the most current definition of choir romantic. However, there are other common ones that are used. This is just the most common definition for that specific term. I do not know the other definitions as they are not listed here. They are most likely fall under other romantic identities outside of aromanticism.
Speaker 1:Got it, but common distinctions for aromantic people that are important to know. So we have arrow aloe, that is, aromantic. Alosexuals experience sexual attraction, but not romantic attraction. Not romantic attraction.
Speaker 2:Then we have Arrow Ace. That is someone who experiences neither sexual nor romantic attraction. And then there is non-Sam Arrow, which is non-split attraction model. Aromantic an aromantic person who doesn't use the split attraction model, as described above, to describe their identity. Just another note here from the Aromantic Advocacy website. There are several different terms used to describe the experience of arrows who don't use the SAM. However, non-sam is currently the most widely used and SAM is just the acronym for split attraction model, which you know. Dual split attraction model. It's just the same thing. Without the dual, it can get a little you know I understand terminology confusing. Yeah, it kind of like hold on a second. What does this connect to? Where does this belong? But SAM and dual split attraction are the same thing same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the next term is amatonormativity. Is that spelled right? Okay, just making sure this time, no, you're valid. Amatonormativity, and that is the assumption that a central, exclusive romantic relationship is normal for humans and the universally shared goal.
Speaker 2:So it's like heteronormativity or any form of non-queer normativity applied for asexuality and aromanticism. The whole idea that having a monogamous romantic relationship, whether it is heterosexual, homosexual, that monogamous romantic relationship is the goal for all human experience. That is what humans are meant to do, even though there isn't a single other animal that really does that besides, like some birds.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I think there's like swans, penguins, there's like some birds and amphibians that mate for life, but other than that, the majority of the animal kingdom does not do that. One monogamous romantic relationship for life, like we are the outlier, along with some birds that are descended from dinosaurs, not normal. And the sooner we can recognize it as being not necessarily normal for the human experience, the sooner we can start to accept all aspects of the human experience.
Speaker 1:I just felt myself being better able to breathe and that moment was almost like a sigh of relief and like a big, big belly breath, because I'm like, wow, this is what I've been feeling my whole life. I'm so happy that we're actually making these statements publicly. It's just amazing. But some common examples of amatonormativity let's say, for example, the people around you insist that you find someone to settle down with and when I say someone, I mean one specific person and settling down as in you behave yourself. Another example could be that polyamorous relationships are viewed as distasteful or unhealthy. That's another pretty common one in our experience here on the earth plane. Another example is that married people are given special legal and financial benefits. I mean, that's how they're rewarded you behave, you get rewarded with benefits. And then another example is people prioritizing romantic relationships over their friends and family. So it's those situations where you know your friend gets in a relationship and they kind of disappear off the face of the earth.
Speaker 2:So I was that problem bitch. I'm ready to admit that I I've done a lot of work I've worked on myself a lot. Don't come at me in I, I've done a lot of work. I've worked on myself a lot. Don't come at me in the fucking comments.
Speaker 1:I've done a lot of shit. We all have older versions of ourself. Okay, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:We all, we, we all have versions of ourselves that we fucking hate. Mine just so happened to be kind of a pick me get off, yup, yup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean these things can be combated right. So how we can all combat the amatonormativity? Always ask before, assuming your partner is invited to a social event. I know a lot of times people just, oh well, they're my partner, so I want to show up with them. Reflect on how and why you prioritize certain relationships.
Speaker 2:This was so important for me, like this is this is a huge thing. If you notice, this is something you're struggling with again as someone who has done a lot of healing from being a past. Pick me I've got some women in my life that I hold some strong. I'm coming for you, bitches, for that strong. I'm coming for you, bitches for that but. And some men, but it is what it is. Um, but you know, just definitely really analyzing why was this a relationship that I prioritized over the other ones, and maybe also recognizing that like, oh, some of my friendships also weren't that good for me. I've also, as I've gotten older, recognized that one of the reasons I was prioritizing a lot of romantic relationships over some of my friendships is because those were friendships that were people that didn't actually care about me. One of those was with a friend who I told that I was experiencing suicidal ideation and she told me I was harshing the vibe like that's not a good friend, right?
Speaker 2:yeah? So of course I was going to prioritize other relationships over her, even if those other relationships weren't that good. Neither relationship was good. So, really analyzing your past relationships, how you got into those situations, how you got yourself out of them, you know, showing the love for yourself for having gotten away from those situations, but also recognizing how to not do it again and how to prioritize the relationships in your life that are genuinely beneficial for you, whether they are friendships, family, romantic, whatever they might be, make sure that they are genuinely beneficial just educate yourself on aromantic and polyamorous issues or things topics, subtopics and maybe incorporate it into your conversations with other peoples, kind of in the vein of just normalizing things, seeing where people are at, gauging their interest level and what they know.
Speaker 1:Because I gotta tell you, I think more people than not are falling under these or fitting in these certain categories, but they're just, they feel like they can't talk about it, they feel like they're doing something wrong. I could say that for me, we're going through this episode and I'm like this is so validating to just think about the certain things like queer, platonic relationships, like I feel like I have one or two of those in addition to my romantic relationship and I mean, and even that's, you know, on that spectrum and it's okay, like that is okay. That is the experience that I choose for my life. I'm healthy, I'm communicative in it and it's just validating and freeing. So just keeping yourself educated in the right groups of people, like Kit said, hanging around, people who are healthy, who are willing to, like we said before, keep learning, keep growing and just keep being advocates.
Speaker 2:Yes, I say, and the aromantic pride flag, which is another just absolutely really pretty pride flag. I love our pride flags. We've got some really pretty pride flags. The only pride flag that I look at and I'm like who the fuck made that is the Polly one. I'm sorry, I am Polly. I love my Polly people. Why the fuck is our pride flag so butt? Ugly? That's an ugly pride flag. What is with the pie symbol? What is?
Speaker 1:what Truth? That's a good question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's's that's the only pride flag I can't fucking stand is that poly one, because I think it is really ugly, but the rest of them, I think, are so cute and I love.
Speaker 2:The aromantic pride flag was made in 2014 by tumblr user at cameron whimsy. The dark colors are the colors mean dark and light. Green is for aromanticism and the aromantic spectrum Green is the opposite of red, which is often considered the color of romantic love. Combined, they represent all identities across the romantic spectrum, so it's like a dark green and a different. I think it's two different shades of light green. The white, sometimes referred to as the platonic stripe. It represents types of attractions that are not romantic or sexual. It den as diverse as the aero spectrum and aromantic people, if they even have one, like if you, if they even have a sexual identity, you know, because there are some aromantic people who are just like no, I don't, I don't know and I don't care, and it's like OK, you pop off, queen, absolutely. I love that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:Love that for you. Yeah, yeah, me too Love that for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then to share about the Aromantic Spectrum Visibility Day, also abbreviated ASVD, actually took place for the first time on August 25th 2023. And so it's supposed to become an international day of action. Yeah, isn't that cool? So the ASvd is currently organized by a group of people from germany, from austria, from switzerland, and a group called active arrow, which is ak tiv, capital, a ro, and the day is supposed to, just like the other days of visibility, it's supposed to increase visibility and awareness of the aromantic spectrum.
Speaker 2:so that's august 25th yeah, established last year, so super cool which means this is going to be the second annual, like that's so cool and I think that's just a really good reminder and goes to show. I don't know. I remember when gay marriage happened and there were a bunch of people that were just like, okay, so that's it. Now the fight is done like no, no, it's not, it was never done, it's not done, it hasn't been done like marriage wasn't the end, all be all.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's so weird to see how many people were just like nope, we got marriage, it's done. Now, like no, that wasn't the end. All be all for any of us. I don't know where the fuck y'all were. I don't know who y'all were listening to, but that was never the end. All be all of this.
Speaker 1:So it's not just all about being seen and being visible and being affirmed in how we express, but it's also within the context of how do we operate, within how we're expected to operate, how we're told to operate. I feel like they're two different things, but they're very much riding alongside one another, right? I feel like they're two different things, but they're very much riding alongside one another, right? Because even if we're affirmed for being aro or asexual, what we're expected to do is, like we said earlier, just be in that heterosexual, quote-unquote normal relationship, and they're kind of two different things. It's like the behavior of what's expected. But then we're also evolving our own identities and how we present to the world. Right, separate from that, separate from relationship.
Speaker 2:It's the idea of societal norms. And what I think a lot of people don't recognize about societal norms is they have not been what they are now throughout the majority of human history, and they are bound to change again, because that is how societal norms work. Like these are not. Just look at the societal norms from when our grandparents were kids versus now. While they are pretty similar even though they like to think that everything's gone insane, right, they're pretty similar now to what they were they still have changed. Yeah, they still have changed pretty quickly, and it's all about that perspective of like where they are now and where they were. Yeah, they're not infallible, that's the word I was looking for. These are not the infallible laws of nature, they're societal norms.
Speaker 1:It doesn't help, too, that queer topics are always politicized and they're always on TV, with extremists one side of the other pitting humans against each other. You either have to feel this way or feel this way, or vote for this person, or that's it. It's just weaponized so much. So I think that in and of itself is a huge one of many of our challenges in gaining visibility and momentum forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, and like that's the point out. The point is to weaponize it.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly. What do you think you want to jump to that fun fact.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, the fun fact today is a really interesting one. Absolutely, the fun fact today is a really interesting one. So just to preface the fun fact a little bit, I will be using they them pronouns for this person, despite their name being extraordinarily feminine. The reason for that is because, while almost every single article about this person used she her pronouns, there were a few that used he him. There were a few that used he him, and I could not find any information from any form of reputable sources, any form of really anything, about what pronouns this person went by in there, if there, if any of their writings had to do with what pronouns they would have liked to have gone by, anything like that. So in that case scenario, I personally will just be using they them, because that, I feel like, is the safest bet to be as respectful as possible to the queer people and the scientists that helped us that came before us.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thanks for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So fun fact one of the first times asexuality was recognized was by Emma Trauss, a German teacher and school administrator who, while being AFAB, was able to get a higher education and study psychology. Due to their family background in education, they wrote on homosexuality in the 1800s, being the first AFAB person to do so, during which they wrote on what would later be known as asexuality. Not only were they the first person to write about asexuality, they would also then come to identify as asexual themselves. Mic drop, thank you you.