Ep. 46: Courtney's Journey Through Ghostly Shadows

What draws someone to explore the eerie corridors of abandoned buildings? Join us as we journey with Courtney, a skilled photographer and behavior analyst, who shares her thrilling escapades through forgotten structures. We start with some light-hearted banter about attending an Aaron Lewis concert, tattoos, and hitting subscriber milestones before diving into Courtney's childhood obsession with the Houghton Mansion in North Adams, Massachusetts. She also teases her upcoming adventure to the haunted Trans-Allegheny Asylum in West Virginia, setting the stage for spine-tingling tales from its vast grounds.

The haunted history of North Adams takes center stage as we recount chilling stories of the Houghton Mansion and the infamous Hoosac Tunnel, known as the "Bloody Pit." Personal anecdotes bring these spooky sites to life, including a high school ghost hunting escapade and a close encounter with a train. We can't help but chuckle as we touch on the Ghost Adventures episode featuring Zach Bagans and our host's amusing admiration for him, adding a touch of humor to the otherwise eerie narrative.

Our conversation deepens as we explore the emotional resonance of abandoned places, from Rhode Island farmhouses to homes filled with personal relics. Courtney shares her powerful experiences capturing the essence of these spaces through her lens. We also discuss the creation of the Beltertown State School Friends Association and its mission to preserve mental health history, while weighing the ethical responsibilities of documenting such places. This episode is a rollercoaster of emotions and thrills, promising unforgettable stories and thought-provoking insights.

Belchertown State School Friends

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I am aggressive. Be aggressive, be, be aggressive, oops.

Speaker 2: 0:09

And we were talking about my dad. How is Daddy Keating? Oh, he's lovely. I'm actually going to a concert with him on.

Speaker 3: 0:17

Sunday what are?

Speaker 2: 0:18

you seeing Aaron Lewis.

Speaker 1: 0:19

Oh, he's from Massachusetts, right? Yes, he is extremely conservative. When I first moved here, my hubby would take me around driving in the woods and we would drive by the house and it was like, oh, aaron Lewis used to live here.

Speaker 3: 0:38

So I need my first tattoo this year. I made myself a promise and maybe I should get a Wicked Wanderings tattoo instead.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Or no, because that would jinx jinx oh we could make it fun.

Speaker 2: 0:49

How many subscribers do we need for hannah to get a?

Speaker 1: 0:53

oh, I like that oh, that's a good idea okay. Hi, I'm Jess and I'm Hannah. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.

Speaker 3: 1:18

So grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us.

Speaker 1: 1:23

This is Wicked Wanderings. So hello Wanderers, hello Wanderers.

Speaker 4: 1:45

Hello Wanderers, hello.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Wanderers, hannah and Rob. We have a special episode tonight. I'm so excited and we have been trying to get Courtney on here forever to tell us about her experiences, because she's been to a lot of spooky places.

Speaker 3: 2:01

She's an amazing photographer. She's a brilliant behavior analyst. Taught me everything I know Getting emotional. She's an amazing photographer. She's a brilliant behavior analyst. Taught me everything I know I get emotional. She's brilliant everybody. Welcome, courtney.

Speaker 1: 2:12

Hilarious. So here is Courtney Yay, thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:17

I'm going to go hide now.

Speaker 1: 2:20

So you have some tales for us.

Speaker 2: 2:22

Okay, well, so, as Hannah mentioned, I take photos. I've always loved photography since I was a little girl. My dad got me my first camera when I was really little. Yes, hannah, I have a question. Yes, okay, do you have photos of what you're?

Speaker 3: 2:34

going to talk about.

Speaker 2: 2:34

I do not, unfortunately.

Speaker 3: 2:36

Okay, because we could totally post them, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 2:45

So the place that I had chose to talk about today was from before I had actually started taking photos of abandoned buildings, which is something I definitely started a little bit, I would say later on. Um, once I was an adult and my dad couldn't ground me, essentially um a lot of taking a lot of taking photos in abandoned buildings is breaking and entering.

Speaker 3: 2:55

Um sorry, if you're listening, dad, you're, you're gonna hear can you tell us where you're going that I'm so jelly about?

Speaker 2: 3:02

yes, in september I'm going to the trans allegheny asylum is that in west virginia?

Speaker 4: 3:09

it is in western yeah and isn't it like on 666 acres or something like that?

Speaker 3: 3:15

why? Yes, it is rob, and with also 13 buildings.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Wow, 13 doesn't seem like that many actually.

Speaker 3: 3:21

No, well, 13 is a number like that, like seven is god's number 13's an unlucky number, not god's number, I guess and taylor swift so you're going to trans allegheny?

Speaker 1: 3:33

yes, in west virginia yes on 666 acres yes, in september with 13 buildings.

Speaker 3: 3:41

It was a call back.

Speaker 2: 3:41

We were trying to kill off.

Speaker 4: 3:42

I'm glad you know your radio terms.

Speaker 2: 3:50

I make that talk about my jokes in regular life.

Speaker 1: 3:52

Anyways, moving on, I know nothing about this place.

Speaker 2: 3:58

Yeah, so I grew up in North Adams Mass and the first place that really kind of caught my attention as a young kid about abandoned places was the Houghton Mansion, which it wasn't actually abandoned at that time the Freemasons had purchased it, but it's kind of got a cool story and a lot of people have talked about the ghost stories that happened at it. And actually my first dance that I had a date to a long, long time ago at this point now, please. Yes, it was at that place and so they did a tour too when we were there and we actually got to see kind of all of the inside of the house. Um, the freemasons did do some work on the building, so it wasn't all original. They had the um, the brick back half, I believe, is what they had added for their their meeting rooms. Um, very cryptically, and I do think now it's currently empty actually, which is kind of of sad.

Speaker 3: 4:43

Yeah, so the Masons aren't there anymore.

Speaker 2: 4:45

No, I want to say it was like 2017 maybe that they sold it Wow.

Speaker 3: 4:50

Okay, that makes sense, because how I found out and I messaged you because I knew you grew up, north Adams was because I saw an old, old, old original episode of Ghost Adventures with Zach Bagin was there. I've seen that, yes, and I was like North Adams, I was like Cardi, and then, yes, I didn't know. Then he interviewed with the Freemasons so I thought they still owned it, so I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 2: 5:09

Yeah, I want to say his episode was from like 2015,. I think Older than that it was back. It was back there, but North Adams is good for you know, Mount Greylock, as Rob knows come on another callback

Speaker 4: 5:24

it's the highest mountain in massachusetts, or the highest point um, but also for?

Speaker 2: 5:30

um, the hoosuck tunnel, which I could probably talk about for a light year, so that would have to be a totally separate episode. Um, but also for the houghton mansion, which is apparently one of the top five most haunted places, according to some places on the internet. Um, in massachusetts actually. Yeah, I didn't realize that until I was looking into it, do you remember?

Speaker 3: 5:49

what the other ones were, just the hoosick tunnel was one of them.

Speaker 2: 5:51

So the hoosick tunnel, um, at the bloody pit, so it definitely it collapsed in as they were building it at a certain point, and that's why it got the name the bloody pit. It killed a lot of people who were working on it, right, right, okay, so that's said to be haunted as well. And I will admit something here that I have not ever admitted out loud for the very first time, oh, I'm wicked wandering everybody.

Speaker 2: 6:13

In high school, one of my teachers that I was a TA for was starting a ghost hunting after school program, and that's when after school programs were not cool. People who went to those were not fun. And she said to me Courtney, I'll give you a good grade if you come to be the last person so we can actually have this group. So I was part of the ghost hunting group in high school. That's awesome and the music tunnel was on the list actually.

Speaker 1: 6:39

That's really cool yes. That is amazing. Can I raise my hand?

Speaker 2: 6:43

Yeah, go ahead, it was 2008.

Speaker 1: 6:44

That zach was there, yeah wow, that was a year before me season one, episode two, in case you're wondering.

Speaker 3: 6:51

Okay yeah, he did the bobby bobby mac bobby, mackie's place first anyway, side note.

Speaker 1: 6:59

So on this ghost your after school program, you went to this place.

Speaker 2: 7:04

No, so we didn't go to this place, but we did go to the hoosick tunnel at one point, um, at one of the entrances that's located in north adams because there's another entrance located in florida mass um, there's a really cute sign when you're going up the mountain. It's a snowman that says welcome to florida oh, that's cute. It is cute, people take you know tacky pictures in front of it when they're visiting. But on the North Adams side we had gone in and done some of the you know amateur level.

Speaker 3: 7:29

So there's no train that's going through that anymore. Nope.

Speaker 2: 7:32

Wrong, so I didn't think so either.

Speaker 2: 7:36

But I had to do a photography project my senior year, also for art class, and I had decided to do it. You had to make like a book about something and I always kind of liked history of obviously creepy things. I should have seen this coming a long time before it happened. Um, and I was doing it on the music tunnel and my friend danielle and I shout out danielle, um, one of my oldest friends from high school, um, and I had asked her would you come with me to take these photos of the music tunnel? It'll be fun? And danielle went with me, reluctantly, and I was getting pictures of her on the tracks and we were standing right at the entrance of the tunnel, which it's like tracks, and then the tunnel is right up.

Speaker 2: 8:11

I mean, you've got like a foot and a half on either side You're not talking a lot of space, so it's a tight fit and all of a sudden there's a smoke shit and we're like pressed against the walls of this like rock, as the train comes shooting out of the tunnel oh my god, she's just like take pictures, um, and so somewhere on a hard drive, somewhere I have photos that my dad it got me an a on the project. But my dad was like, how did you get those?

Speaker 3: 8:41

and we need to talk again about safety yeah, I didn't think trains was something we had to worry about, but, but apparently trains is so it's interesting because that's actually one of the first things I thought of when I saw the ghost adventures episode, because zach walks straight in there. I'm like, oh my god, are these trains live, I or tracks live, I?

Speaker 2: 8:57

guess they say they are, but they don't have like the same, like so. So I live in palmer and obviously there's a lot of trains that come in and out of there all the time. Every day you can hear trains coming in and out of Palmer. It's not quite like that, but that track was still active, at least in 2012. I would imagine it still is to some degree.

Speaker 3: 9:13

He must have had to have checked, because why? Well, it's Zach Bagans, so who knows? But I mean crazy.

Speaker 1: 9:20

Is he a celebrity crush for you?

Speaker 2: 9:22

I have. She said his name like six times and she gets this look about her when she says it yeah, do you want to?

Speaker 3: 9:28

He's a weirdo, but I have a total crush on Zach Bagans. Yes, if I ever saw him in real life, I'd probably like. The only reason I want to go to Vegas is to go to his like haunted attractions.

Speaker 4: 9:49

Do you want me to try to see? Want to get a celebrity on your podcast?

Speaker 2: 9:51

let me know, because I know all the agents. So um the houghton mansion um, otherwise no, it's only on, or is it on mansion um? The houghton mansion was owned by the first mayor of north adams, so albert charles houghton um, and he had had it built.

Speaker 2: 10:06

It was kind of like a status symbol of like how much he obviously how wealthy he was, how powerful he was, and they said at one point it was one of like the top three most like wealthy and status driven houses in North Adams. There are a lot of really beautiful like Victorian style houses. It's located on Church Street, which is a lot of very older homes, and it certainly does still stick out even though yes, hannah, correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 3: 11:44

So I feel that the status of north adams has changed so much over the years because I feel like there was a lot of wealth for north adams and then when the factories and everything shut down, then there was a lot of poverty in north adams. Absolutely, I think.

Speaker 2: 11:58

Even I mean growing up in north adams, even, you know, 30 years. Then there was a lot of poverty in North Adams, absolutely, I think. Even I mean growing up in North Adams. Even 30 years ago it was a lot different than it is now. A lot of things there are just kind of dying off. Businesses are dying off, people are leaving. I think every time I a lot of my family still lives there Every time I go back, people are like, well, why did you leave?

Speaker 2: 12:15

Why did you move out? There was no job opportunities out there. Um, and especially in my line of work being so new, there's really like, unless you want to work at the schools, which horrifies me because I would know all the people who work there and all the people whose kids I was working with, um, which was not ideal, but it absolutely did change over time and it still does have a lot of draws that I think people of a certain aesthetic like to go to, like mass mocha. Yeah, um, you know, the norman rockwell museum is in the berkshires. The berkshires has a lot of great breweries in the berkshires they do.

Speaker 2: 12:41

They have great breweries great ideas, one of my favorites I I had to in preparation for for this episode look up something that I could say, and I quote because it's one of my favorite things that hannah says um so and I quote the williams record for 80 a night, as long as you followed three rules no alcohol, no drugs and no Ouija boards was kind of what the Masons had said about staying there.

Speaker 2: 13:07

Okay, which I thought was interesting. That's fair. But before I get ahead of myself, so Albert, the owner of the home, he lived there with his family. He had several children, but one died early on, as a child, and then several of them had already grown up and had their own families, but him and his daughter Mary, were unfortunately killed around the same time. So in 1914, there was a car accident in Vermont. They were on their way to Bennington, vermont, so they were going up through Pono and he had just bought his like first brand new car ever. And I will have to literally read what it is, because I had never heard of it until I looked it up. Um, it was a pierce arrow torrent car that seated seven.

Speaker 2: 13:48

Damn yeah so obviously a mini van of his time yes, and john witters, who was his longtime servant but had just recently been trained on how to drive. Um, you know, thinking back how long ago that was, yeah, um, he was the one who was at the wheel the day of the accident. Um, so he, there's. There's many different stories actually. If you're looking into it, that you'll actually see. So the first one that I had come across was that, um, you know the that something had happened and the car just like rolled down a hill. That seems a little bit too vague for me, but when I looked into it farther, it sounds like there was an obstacle on the side of the road.

Speaker 2: 14:22

John tried to kind of, you know, veer around it and had either overshot or something had happened and the road caved. And so they did fall down an embankment and it rolled over three full times and landed back right side up. His daughter, mary, was ejected from the car. They also had a family friend who was a doctor, as well as his wife and their child, and I believe the wife passed away as well. So Albert did live through the accident and Mary died en route to the hospital. So it was not immediate, she did die. I think it was closer to like 3pm and the accident was about 930 in the morning at North Adams Hospital they had said albert died at home about nine or ten days later. Um, and some people were actually saying that he died of a broken heart.

Speaker 2: 15:07

So he had minor injuries, but at home that's kind of all that you can really get. I tried to dig further into it and it's really just, you know, suspected a broken heart, um, at the loss of his daughter who at that time was his caretaker. So she was really kind of like he. Really he was a diehard businessman. So he was the mayor the first mayor of North Adams but then he had, you know, finished up his time as the mayor. I think it was like a two-year term that he had served and then he went back into business because he was very prominent in the factories and things that Hannah had talked about too. So Albert and John both had minor injuries. Albert had Albert and John both had minor injuries and so Albert had died nine or ten days later. But John actually was found dead the next morning. He had committed suicide on the Houghton property um.

Speaker 2: 15:45

He was overcome with guilt, um at the fact that you know Mary had died and he had been a longtime friend and servant of them so he, he did um, he was found dead in the horse area um, with a horse pistol.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Oh, that's sad, yeah, um. So a lot of times people, when they're talking about the hoed mansion, I think sometimes they connect the hoed mansion and the music tunnel. I was seeing and I was like no, I can't put these two together, I have to be separate. But I kind of wanted to see like the history really isn't that much, that's there what you can find from so long ago. But really what people talk about is all the experiences that they had when the freemasons has had owned the building.

Speaker 2: 16:21

So some of the different things that people were reporting were doors slamming um and papers rustling, and that was in the second floor records room which I believe was part of the original house, um, from what I looked at. And then there was one snowy night that, um, the freemasons had heard downstairs the side door open and they heard the sounds of someone like stomping their boots out. It was like two feet of snow and they were all snowed in. And then they heard the sound of the door closing and when they went there was no boot tracks, there was no snow inside.

Speaker 3: 16:48

And it was like one of those doors they had set in their account.

Speaker 2: 16:51

That was like you couldn't open, you couldn't open the door without the sound of it opening and then closing. Interesting, yeah, which I thought was super interesting. And then, as I was digging, I was like okay, but like, which spirit do people believe was actually?

Speaker 2: 17:04

there and it sounds like people had reported different things from Mary, albert and John, so people had felt like they could hear their voices in different places.

Speaker 2: 17:13

I know the basement was a really big thing so there was originally a different house on the foundation and they had tore it down when they were building the Houghton mansion and put that one right on top, but they used the same foundation. And so even back to the Houghton family when they lived there, they had reported having this like weird eerie feeling when they were in the basement and people still, when the Masons had it, said the same thing, which was funny, because how would they have known that so long ago the family who lived there also felt the same things Shadowy figures kind of roaming the hallways. And then one that I actually connected with and that's why I saved it for last was that visitors often expressed having a heavy and sad feeling when they entered Mary's old bedroom, and I distinctly only remember very few things about being, you know, 14 years old at a school dance at the houghton mansion. Um, one being like this is so cool, I'm gonna go inside um and probably bolting out of my mom's car, disregarding everything she was telling me.

Speaker 2: 18:06

But, um, also that when we got the tour and they showed us mary's bedroom, it was definitely a very somber feeling and back then I I really don't think that I knew what had happened there. It was kind of one of those houses that you pass all the time and you're like, oh yeah, that's that place, but nobody ever really like talked about, kind of what happened there. Um, and I believe the barn was long gone by the time that I had gone there. I think that the barn is gone now, but um, yeah, the houghton mansion that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 18:34

You know what I? I've been on a couple ghost tours, obviously, and they always tell you first what happened in there and what people have experienced. And I wish they would wait, because it's like the power of suggestion, yeah, and walking in and like, oh, I'm supposed to feeling somber and so that would be interesting to like have a ghost tour that says, okay, this is where we're in but something we talked about is like some of these big name places like the lizzie borden house.

Speaker 3: 19:06

Yeah, didn't feel a thing. No, neither of us did. Have you been there yet? No, we should go, not power suggestion. Right like I did not feel a thing. But then I go to that place that you said is right near your boyfriend's house in Rhode Island, the main street. I have no idea where it's called. It's right near, but we talked about this. You're like it's like two minutes from his family home. Oh, yeah, I don't know which, the main, the main.

Speaker 3: 19:33

I have no idea something the main diner no, anyways, it's close to where your boyfriend's um family is, but the overwhelming feeling, I don't know what else. It's very oppressive feeling and that stays with you, for mine stayed with me for at least 24 hours and I was like when you guys went to the restaurant, yes, you and you and Jonathan. Yeah, like totally felt it for over 24 hours and I was so worried. I took something home with me, I think, but it was just people have said, it stays with you for a while.

Speaker 2: 20:03

I think some places and I think maybe that's part of why I like abandoned buildings is because you know sometimes you go to some place that you've read about and that you're like okay about it, I want to see it.

Speaker 2: 20:14

But there have been times where I've gone to old farmhouses. There's one that I can think of off the top of my head in New York and we called it the Love Letter House because there were just love letters scattered all over the floor that somebody had written. It was across the street from this beautiful, very just, somber stream that went over rocks and there was waterfalls. It was very peaceful, in the middle of of nowhere. The door was just unlocked as if it was waiting for someone to come home, and the pictures I have from there will still give me the same feeling of standing in their kitchen, where it was like you were when I was standing there. I just was waiting for someone to come home and it's like okay, but you're not in your home and and you just get that unexplainable kind of like a longing yeah and why would I feel that?

Speaker 2: 20:53

because I don't. I didn't know anything about the house. I had been driving with friends and we just decided to stop and go in, so it's not like I knew anything about the backstory to create in my head.

Speaker 3: 21:01

Like oh, this is how you're going to feel it was just.

Speaker 2: 21:03

This building took on that feeling and I think that's part of the reason why I like photographing those places, Because when you're there you can just kind of feel what's there and put it into your art. And put it into your art.

Speaker 3: 21:14

That's awesome, because I think some people just want to be scared by places. Yeah, definitely, and part of this is kind of going a little off track. But people's energy end up fueling something that's not necessarily there to begin with, but for me, I just rather feel what could have been left there. Yeah, because I say that feelings and energies can be absorbed in stone and brick and whatever, like. A lot of places aren't built like that anymore, but it's interesting what can be left at places, the residual energy?

Speaker 1: 21:48

Yeah. What were some of your other experiences that were At different places? Yeah, at different places, I think Photograph I mean there's been so many different places.

Speaker 2: 21:57

I think a lot of times people are hoping, or maybe thinking, that my experiences are always going to be. When I've photographed old state hospitals, old mental asylums and, honestly, those places, I don't usually feel anything. A lot of times the homes. I think it's because homes are so personal, so when I'm photographing someone's abandoned living room, it's like they had chosen the layout of this room. There's a home that was in Pelham Mass I believe, and it was purchased by a developer and they had to take it down. They wanted to save it, but the foundation was just unsafe. There was never going to be a safe way to develop it.

Speaker 2: 22:33

And so we had the opportunity one of my friends and I to go and photograph the place and kind of go through, and he was like we're going to have to get rid of everything that's in it because of its age. So if you want anything, you can take the items. And I remember my dad being like don't take things from an abandoned house Like you don't know. And I'm like, well, you just thank the home as you're leaving. And she had a beautiful library room. It was probably about the size of the room we're in right now, and she was an old school teacher and so she had desks and books and like notes tucked in the books from like who had purchased them. And a lot of the decor in my apartment is from Barbara's house and I know it as Barbara's house because that's what her name was. But you're being respectful to it.

Speaker 3: 23:12

Yeah, you're respectful.

Speaker 2: 23:17

The feeling of being in someone's personal space, like how they decorate their space, what items they choose that represented them and mean something. Those are always the places that I found that I have more of an experience and being in barbara's house I never felt unwelcomed. I never felt like anything was hostile. It was kind of just like a friend was following you around, like as you're photographing the shoes in her closet.

Speaker 2: 23:36

She's like standing there just kind of like, oh, someone's appreciating them or um, she really loved. I mean I'm assuming sorry, barbara if you don't, but you had a lot of glass, so I assumed that she really liked glass bottles, which I also really like. I loved pharmacy bottles at the time was a big thing for me. But different colored glass, um, and I think I have like two glass pigs now in my collection because I was like, oh, that's so interesting that she had two glass pigs, and so I was like, well, I can't just let these go nowhere. So now they're part of who I am and part of my space, because I found them and they just gave me a feeling of kind of comfort. I guess that's awesome.

Speaker 3: 24:09

I like what you said about it's people's space and how they decide to develop it and where they decide to place things. It's a little off kilter, but do you guys know about the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum that's in Boston?

Speaker 1: 24:20

Yeah, Is that the stolen art one? Yes, yeah, yes.

Speaker 3: 24:25

So my brother, john, brought me there and something that's kind of off the beaten path, but it was the original entrance to her home and she had a lot of Japanese artwork. And this is one thing I love about my brother he, he, he thinks differently than other people, which is is very brilliant. But he goes off the beaten path and he's like this was the original entrance, this was what she wanted to see when she was entering her home. He's like so to me, this is what, what was important to her right in her lifetime. He's like and then, just looking at it, I had a total different perspective. Everyone else, it's just a blocked door and you go down this hallway but, john was like this was her entrance, this is what she loved.

Speaker 3: 25:05

She loved all this japanese artwork and I was like, wow, so it's thinking about that. Like this is what meant something to her. She loved the glass. She liked her book.

Speaker 2: 25:14

Yeah, you could. You could figure out more about people there and I actually think you know form that connection to be able to, if they were in that space, to be able to be receptive to them. Because if you think about you know, I've been in state schools, I've been in state hospitals, but that is not where those people were represented as who they are. That was where those people went through torment and you know, not because people intended intended to, but it was what they thought they were doing was best at the time. That's not who those people were. That was them at some very rough points of their life. They didn't get to choose what their environment looked like. They didn't get to choose what happened to them. They had no say at all in that moment.

Speaker 2: 25:47

So it would make sense that that person probably wasn't there, I mean yeah I mean, maybe there are some people who are, you know, trapped there, but I feel like you would much rather be in a space that you curated perfectly for yourself. Exactly, it's very personal to be in somebody's home, um, that's why people don't just invite random people over. So being able to be that close to someone, I feel like the homes were always kind of the place where I have more of the kind of haunting effect I would say how'd you get into?

Speaker 2: 26:14

all of this? That's a good question. I mean, I always loved photography and I think I always just had a weird fixation with history in an abandoned context. Obviously I have a strong inclination towards mental health and things like that, and that was always there. But when I moved to Palmer I became really quickly obsessed with Belger Town State School, which is very near and dear to my heart, and I remember reading all about it and reading all the books and different people's accounts. There's a lot of really lovely books that people have written about all sorts of things there and I wanted to see it and I had gotten my first camera maybe two months before and I really wanted to see it and I did not know that it was illegal to be on the property um, so I will say shout out, did not know breaking and entering, I did not go into the buildings I was

Speaker 2: 27:03

very respectful. I was just walking the property and, um, and I didn't get caught, which is funny, because now, if you're to go there, you will absolutely be arrested. Um, we work closely with the police department as part of our nonprofit and you will absolutely be arrested. There's a developer who's involved, so they're trying to save the buildings. But back then there were so many more buildings that were there and I just kept photographing them and photographing them. And there were so many of these people that I had looked up to as abandoned photographers that it was kind of like, oh, I would never do it, but I'm interested in their photos. And I found myself shortly after the Belchertown experience. I had signed up for a workshop. I really got out of my comfort zone. I was like, oh, I don't know these people, but they're putting on this workshop. It was in Holyoke at the Victory Theater, and I was like, oh, that would be so cool to be allowed into an abandoned place. I was really trying to please my dad and not break into places.

Speaker 2: 27:49

I was like if I can pay to go in, then it doesn't count, right? Yeah, um, he was still not thrilled about that. He was still concerned about the safety aspect, but I ended up going there and I I still go to dave and mike's workshops today. Um little did I realize that everybody who does have been photography usually uses like a screen name or an alias to put their photos under, and when I was standing there with the two people who run the workshops, they had told me their instagram handles like oh, we've never've never seen you before. They're very welcoming of everybody, and they were two of the people that I had looked up to the most.

Speaker 2: 28:19

So, it was super cool for me to be able to be there with them and take photos and get feedback. Like you know, he used a Canon too, just like I did, and he gave me a lot of feedback on how to use my camera in the early days.

Speaker 2: 28:31

So that's kind of where it all went from. There. I kept going to their workshops and then meeting people who had the same interest as me, and then that's where a lot of the bad decision making of breaking into places I probably shouldn't have been, which I do not do anymore.

Speaker 1: 28:50

I do all of my photography legally now because too much to lose and a dull responsibility. So you mentioned a nonprofit.

Speaker 2: 28:54

Yes.

Speaker 1: 28:55

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, do you want to? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:58

So a friend, kate, and I, we started the Beltertown State School Friends Association and we Kate works in special education, I obviously work in special education and we really wanted to find a way to preserve mental health history and get it to be, you know, a museum was kind of our big end goal and I believe we were at one of her book events. She's an author. She writes a lot about abandoned places, specifically in the mental health field. Um, her books are great, shout out. You should definitely check them out. We'll put the link in the show notes but she's a natural um.

Speaker 2: 29:35

We were just talking one time at one of her book events I would go with her and help her manage signing and checking people out at events and we were like wouldn't it be so cool if we could do this, something she had thought about for a long time, and we just kept kind of pushing it forward. And then COVID happened, so a lot of it was kind of stunted.

Speaker 3: 29:49

But there is a developer involved.

Speaker 2: 29:52

And so we're hoping to be able to get a physical space at Belichium town state school for a museum dedicated to remembering the people who, um, you know, were there and unfortunately not treated the right way.

Speaker 2: 30:03

But a lot of people have learned and made their their career based on things that we learned back then. Um, there's a lot of obstacles. A lot of people have their own feelings about it, obviously, about whether or not it, you know, we should glorify something that happened there. It's certainly not about that. It's definitely about raising awareness and making sure that people always are moving forward and that they're not doing things like restraining people face down. You know, we did that back then. There's a reason we don't do that. We need to take that history and embrace it.

Speaker 2: 30:28

The good, bad and learn from it otherwise those people died for nothing right because if we forget it, we don't learn from it exactly, and those people were important. Um, there's a really good book written by Dr Howard Shane Unsilenced, I believe, is the title. Read it in like three hours on an advanced copy it's. It's about Belcher Town and his experience there and how he kind of got his whole career jumpstarted.

Speaker 1: 30:51

Wow, that's crazy. Thanks for sharing our stories and anytime you want to invite me in here, absolutely, I still owe you guys pictures.

Speaker 2: 31:00

I have about a million pictures in my Lightroom that have not been edited Pretty much anywhere. You can ask Really. My toxic trait is that I take all these photos in an effort to never forget things, and then don't do anything with them. I leave them on SD cards, and I just keep buying more SD cards.

Speaker 1: 31:17

So have you ever caught anything on film? No, really Interesting.

Speaker 2: 31:23

I feel like, for the types of places I normally do photography, I don't think anybody would want to show themselves there. If you think about those people who were there, why would they want to be photographed in the place that all those horrible things happened? Some of those places are filled with some really humbling things. When you're in there, there's a place. So Tewksbury State Hospital is still active. If you're listening and you're thinking about going there, don't go there. It's still active. There are still patients there. Respect them, please. But they have doors that are wooden where there are actually claw marks of the patients in the doors, um, just ground into every door of the seclusion rooms where they were trying to get out. My heart, yeah, I mean, it's real. It's a lot of people like it for the lore and for the. You know the clout of it, but but those there were real people there. They're really bad things that happen there, um, so it's a lot of kind of like reminding yourself when you're there, like sometimes you're taking the phone you're like oh, that looks great.

Speaker 3: 32:20

And then you're like, wow, somebody's life was in there I think that's why not every ghost show do I necessarily like yeah, because that's why I like kindred spirits with amy bruni, because she tried to actually help spirits if they were there and find out the actual history, and like what can do to help you. Because I feel like some shows, like your boyfriend, I love Zach Hagen but he's always like what do you want? How can we help you? And then he just leaves them and they say they need help and then they just leave them.

Speaker 3: 32:48

Well then it gets confrontational too, he can get confrontational. I'm not saying he's perfect, I'm just perfect for her, just to help me understand. Anyways, I have to say though, because this was a couple comments back, so I apologize I just didn't want to cut anyone off, but when you were talking about being in a place where you made it your own, I think that's why Lizbeth is not at the Lizzie Borden house. Why would she be right?

Speaker 2: 33:15

when I was listening to her episode, I was like why would she be? When I was listening to her episode, I was like why would she be there? That did not seem like a home that was fit for her.

Speaker 3: 33:21

It was not a place. She was happy. Why not, would you want?

Speaker 2: 33:24

to hang out with a bunch of she's probably getting the last laugh too, thinking people are paying money to go there.

Speaker 1: 33:30

Ah little fuckers.

Speaker 2: 33:31

One last gimmick.

Speaker 1: 33:32

Yeah, exactly, that was wonderful.

Speaker 3: 33:36

So one more thing. That was wonderful. So one more thing did you talk about or hear anything about the wall for the house that was built kind of into the road? How was mill made from, like the the rock, from the tunnel?

Speaker 2: 33:49

uh, yes, I don't know very much about it, but I do. It's funny because whenever I'm thinking about that house, I'm wondering if I can actually pull up a photo of it. Wow, that is loud the rock. So when you're coming, church Street goes this way and then you know the house is kind of on the right hand side If you're going towards the center of town and there's a very, very, very steep road that goes directly up and there is a very specific rock wall that comes along the back and down the side.

Speaker 2: 34:17

I didn't know it when I when I lived there, but I did read it when I was looking through things. Um, and probably that's where a lot of the connection comes in, where people are always talking about the hoosick tunnel and the hohen mansion and kind of blending it together. But I feel like north adams being so small people often kind of lump those two horrific things together.

Speaker 3: 34:34

Yeah, because they're so close, but that doesn't mean that they're connected.

Speaker 2: 34:37

I also find myself, whenever I think about the Hohe Mansion, just really sad for John, Because what was happening is the state police investigators in Vermont had actually had to make a ruling, obviously because someone had died and they had ruled that the ground was just soft and that it was not his fault. But he was just so guilt-ridden that the next morning he took his own life and that's sad because he was a longtime friend of theirs, I mean he was someone who worked for them, but he was somebody who I'm sure that weight of you know.

Speaker 2: 35:03

They trusted him to get a job done and they didn't make it home safe poor john. I feel that I don't know why he would be there either. I don't know why he would hang out there yeah, I don't. I don't think he would either, unless it was to hang out with marion and albert, maybe, yeah well, I'm sure there's positive experiences there too yeah, I mean it.

Speaker 2: 35:23

It's definitely. I remember it being a place that it didn't have a lot of traction. Obviously they're you know, the freemasons kind of did their own thing with it. But I hope that I want to say a developer had bought it whenever the freemasons were getting rid of it, but I don't know what they're gonna do, do with it. Hopefully they keep it, make a really cool museum they already have a really new library so they can't do it for that, but that would be cool too.

Speaker 3: 35:45

As long as you go in with the right intentions, exactly Thanks, court. That was awesome. Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Thank you so much. Thank you guys.

Speaker 4: 36:06

Do you want to do the honors of picking a card? Any card, sure.

Speaker 2: 36:11

Okay, so we have John or Jack McGee and Geraldine Jerry McGee. On December 14th 2011,. The police responded to 7 Orchard Crossing in Andover and found two victims inside the home with multiple gunshot wounds. The victim's vehicle was recovered the night before, on December 13th, in the north end of Boston. If you have any information about this case, please call 1-855-MASS-SOLVE. And what's the card? Somebody help? Is that clubs or spades? Ten of clubs? That's a spade.

Speaker 3: 36:43

A club, ten of clubs, ten of clubs, ten of clubs.

Speaker 4: 36:46

Yes, and it's 1-855-MASS-SOLVE.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Did she say it wrong?

Speaker 2: 36:52

She said mass, I don't want anybody to put an S and an S in there. To put an S and an S in there, double S. No, no, masses.

Speaker 3: 36:59

Awesome.

Speaker 1: 37:00

That was awesome, thank you very much, Courtney. Thank you, best episode of the night.

Speaker 2: 37:05

I think, so we definitely got through it the fastest.

Speaker 4: 37:07

Yeah, Do you want to come back for the next two episodes? Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 37:11

I do.

Speaker 4: 37:11

Excellent, we'll schedule you in. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 37:14

Thank you, Thank you Wanderers, Thanks Wanderers.

Speaker 4: 37:16

Don't forget to send us a text the link is in the show notes If you want some merch. We've reduced the prices. We added some new colors, and don't forget to rate us and review us on Spotify, apple or wherever you listen.

Speaker 1: 37:31

And also, if we get so many likes, hannah will get a tattoo.

Speaker 2: 37:35

Yes, and maybe she'll let you guys pick it. Oh God, get a tattoo.

Speaker 3: 37:37

Yes, and maybe she'll let you guys pick it. Oh God, Okay, I don't know about that. Let's ask Mark. Mark has tattoos.

Speaker 2: 37:46

Mark will understand. Maybe you should get a tattoo of Mark no.

Speaker 3: 37:47

Who's Mark Love you.

Speaker 1: 37:48

Mark. Mark is a cousin. Oh the cousin. Come on, whoa, jess, you're a part of it.

Speaker 4: 37:52

Are you down for this, Hannah? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:54

I don't know about them picking what it is, but absolutely. I want to do this so bad.

Speaker 4: 37:59

So currently Hannah has no tattoos and if we can get, one body here, if we get 1000 likes on either Spotify or Apple. So make sure you share with all your friends and make sure they like and subscribe. And once we hit 1000 on either Spotify or Apple, we will take Hannah to go get a tattoo and we will record it and put it on our Facebook.

Speaker 3: 38:24

Watch me being tortured.

Speaker 1: 38:26

Yes, are you going to cry like a little bitch?

Speaker 3: 38:30

I like pain.

Speaker 4: 38:32

All right. So for Apple Podcasts, we have 14 people that rated already, and on Spotify there's 18. So we have plenty of room for ratings. So make sure you rate and tell all your friends to rate, because once we hit 1,000 on one of the platforms, hannah will get a tattoo. I think I need another drink. Why don't we cut it right here? Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 1: 38:56

We'll see you later. Bye, thanks for listening today.

Speaker 3: 39:00

Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah Fitzpatrick and me, Jess Gunan.

Speaker 4: 39:04

And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Speaker 3: 39:06

Music by Sasha N. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave us a rating and review.

Speaker 1: 39:12

And be sure to follow us on all our socials. You can find the links down in the show notes and if you're looking for some, Wicked Cozy t-shirts or hoodies.

Speaker 3: 39:21

Head over to our merch store.

Speaker 1: 39:23

Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community.

Speaker 3: 39:26

We appreciate each and every one of you Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering. Thank you.