Cultivating Inclusivity and Changing the Fashion Industry w/ Stephanie Thomas

Ever wished there was more inclusivity in the fashion world? Stephanie Thomas, our remarkable guest for today's show, is making this dream a reality. Born with a disability, she's transformed her personal challenges into a mission aimed at changing the fashion industry. Listen in as we peel back the layers on her personal journey, her battle against internalized ableism, and her advice to young people with disabilities on establishing their self-worth.

Stephanie guides us through her path as an entrepreneur in the fashion sector. She shares her perspective on the industry's slow response to inclusivity and her experiences on adaptive clothing projects. We wade into the importance of representation and understanding the specific needs of people with disabilities when designing clothes. Join us as we unearth how fashion can serve as a confidence booster, and why it's crucial to see more voices with lived experiences in the fashion industry.

Finally, we expand the conversation by touching on disability representation in the Black community. We discuss the importance of grassroots initiatives and including people with disabilities in discussions about entrepreneurship and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI). Stephanie generously shares her passion for advocacy, intersectionality, and her mission to shift culture. This captivating conversation is both empowering and enlightening, providing valuable insights about self-definition and the power of creating your own reality. Listen now, and be part of this transformative journey.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

In a world where success often steals the limelight, the stories that truly inspire, that truly matter, are left behind in the shadows. I'm your host, Wesley Hamilton. Welcome to the Out of the Shadows podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:24

My faith dictates to me that this is the way that I was supposed to be, because this is who I am. This is the way I came, and I came as a person born like this with the courage to speak up and advocate for myself.

Speaker 1: 0:40

Yo, what's up everybody. This is Wesley Hamilton. This is another episode of the Out of the Shadows podcast. I want to welcome my guest, an extraordinary individual, someone that I truly believe has emerged from the shadows, and I think that her story should be really represented anywhere. So our guest today is Stephanie Thomas. She was born with a disability, but that's never stopped her. She used her challenges as a driving force behind her mission to change the fashion world. I'm thrilled to introduce Stephanie. She's a mastermind behind the award-winning fashion and styling system that she created accessible, smart and fashionable. She has found a curatable, which is an amazing platform, and she will share more about that soon. Steph is just a beautiful human being and if you don't know who she is, you're definitely going to know who she is today. I'm honored to bring her on the show and truly share what she's doing in the work field, in her advocacy and just in life. So, Stephanie, welcome to the show. I appreciate you coming.

Speaker 2: 1:58

Oh, thank you for having me, Wesley. Thank you for the very kind introduction. I really appreciate it. It was all true, not true?

Speaker 1: 2:07

Absolutely no. So we can dive right in, steph, and just get right into your story. I know I try not to say a lot when it comes to the introduction, but also let people know who we're having on the platform. So if you could just share, to start off with is your personal journey and how it's influenced you and your career and fashion.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Yeah, I appreciate that. So actually I was born with a disability and because I was born at a time where disability still wasn't a thing that people talked about, I never really identified as a person with a disability because I didn't feel like I had the right to and to just make a long story short, without trauma and all of that unnecessary stuff. I never understood that. Oh, my grandmother would say, oh, you're so clumsy, not realizing that they literally had to take bones from my body to create toes. I mean, today I still go to the podiatrist and no matter who I see, they're like how are you walking without prosthetics or without, like they are wondering how I'm walking?

Speaker 2: 3:16

I do have a background a very minimal background and like modern and African dance, I've always loved to move karate, things like that, anything that kept me moving and I grew up around boys so that kept me running after go-karts and balling and hurting myself.

Speaker 2: 3:34

I think I probably unconsciously learned how to ambulate independently. And I also have dexterity challenges, meaning I have one thumb on my right hand and then I often make sure that I don't overuse my left hand because people always go oh, it's just a thumb missing or it's just something like that and, if I can just say this really quick, I think, being born this way and existing in the world this way, I have had to work through a lot of internalized ableism. My advocacy has actually helped heal me, because I felt so ashamed. I felt like I couldn't talk about it to my mom, because mothers who have children with disabilities that are born that way carry a lot of guilt and I've never wanted my mom to feel guilty because my faith dictates to me that this is the way that I was supposed to be, because this is who I am. This is the way I came, and I came as a person born like this, with the courage to speak up and advocate for myself.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Oh, I love that. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I think when we're talking about disability and a lot of conversations and of course that's just part of your story but I appreciate that's what brought you into the work that you do and really into who you are you sometimes don't hear the perspective of someone that was born and kind of what you had to deal with for yourself, based on how you were brought up, and so just being able to share that, I hope that shares like to individuals that do have children with disabilities to understand what that looks like. And before we even go any further, like what advice are things that you would suggest when there are youth that are born with disabilities to kind of give them that confidence and power?

Speaker 2: 5:24

Okay, so I need to put on my glasses. Glasses, can I see you? You blurry. Okay, now I can see you. I was trying not to have on a hat and glasses.

Speaker 1: 5:34

It's obvious that you look good.

Speaker 2: 5:37

Thank you. If you are someone that's, I'll start with the children or the young adults. If you're someone born with a disability, you get to define yourself. Don't let people who are not disabled tell you you're not disabled enough and then don't let the disability community tell you who you are. As a black woman with a disability, oftentimes I deal with you, know someone basically saying to me if you were a wheelchair user, it would be easier for me to deal with you and Wes will get into this during the conversation because it's really impacted my self-esteem, my personal life, when you happen in saying you're pretty but your feet are f'd up and actually my feet are quite nice. I just don't have all my toes. You know I do pedicures. It's not messed up and I'm using humor to help you see that who you are is who you are and you teach people how to treat you. You teach people how you show up in the world because they're going to look at you. People have always seen me as greater than I saw myself, so I look for a lot of validation in the eyes of other people to establish or identify my own self-worth, and I would just warn against that. I would say you have to define who you are, what you love to do. Don't let anything stop you. I'm not talking about some weird, you know, disability I'm going to overcome. I'm talking about just do you and don't let either group define who you are, because that anyone can become a person with a disability at any moment. And I always say to those people you need to create the world you would want to live in if you ever became that person. That's disabled and what's real quick.

Speaker 2: 7:18

I'm just going to speak to the parents and this is with all due respect. Their story is not your story. To prevent them from telling, I need you to step back. I need you to understand that it's not a slide on you, it's not a diss on you. Stop taking their life and making it so personal about you. Work through your own ableism. Work through it together with your child, because when you take away that child's ability to tell their own story and to fully identify as a person with a disability, you harm them. You harm their ability to show up in the world. You make them more dependent on the approval of others. Just action, and I know you love us saying this to parents, you know, but love us enough to let us define ourselves.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Yeah, sometimes people got to hear that hard truth, you know, and it's nothing against what you think is right, but it's definitely important to help to pursue and persuade us, to say, your child to be able to identify themselves and define who they want to be.

Speaker 1: 8:30

You know, I appreciate you sharing at least the journey of your upbringing in the best way, without really trying to dump trauma, as you shared, and then also allowing that advice to be poured out first before we really get into your story, because I think, through a person that advocates organically right, like, we just want to make sure that those messages are shared for those that are listening or those that are tapping on their own.

Speaker 1: 8:58

On a lighter note, I know that you've worn a lot of hats and you do a lot of things, even today, and a lot of people probably don't know necessarily everything that you do, but what most people do familiarize themselves with is your fashion system and being a fashion stylist, and of course, we throw a disability on top of that because you do make most of the individuals you will all of them, but I would say most of the community that you do work with really nice and fly, and I'm excited to even use your services for some of my upcoming work, as we talked about. But can you explain, outside of just really breaking down all the hats you wear and the ones that you've left, what pushed you into not only creating the styling system but making that your main purpose, to really pursue and try to make connections so that fashion is accessible for everybody?

Speaker 2: 10:05

Yeah, no, I think that's a really great question. So my journey started in college. It spans three decades. Here's how the decades are broke down from a macro, not micro macro. The first decade was me learning what there are no great looking clothing for people with disabilities. I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 2: 10:24

I was a part of the Miss America pageant system to earn scholarship money. It's nothing I ever dreamt of doing. Someone asked me to do it and I was like, okay, cool, I'll do it. Prior to that fun fact, I was a professional cheerleader captain for the Chicago lovables during the Jordan era. This was pre-Jordan winning, so don't get real excited. I came in the same year. Scotty Pippin came in and they were still kind of getting their wings, but that was some great basketball. So I left the court and went to college on a vocal scholarship. So most people that that's a fun fact. Also, I sing. I sing all of my life. People that knew me growing up knew me as someone that sang the national anthem like I sing sing, you know I don't anymore but I did no, no, no, steph, I'm already taking a mental note to go.

Speaker 1: 11:17

you know like. No, no, steph sings girl. Yeah, we got you.

Speaker 2: 11:25

So to go from the court to the stage, I was kind of already prepped, because I cheered for the Bulls professionally for two years, so I had been in settings with a lot of different people. I had a conviction when I found out, you know, that things weren't the way they should be, in my opinion, for the disabled, and I started two years after the ADA was passed, you know. So it was still very new. And decade two, I started reaching out to people in the fashion industry after watching this episode of the Oprah Winfrey show. Oprah came on and was like we're having a fashion show for everyone. I was super excited. I was a TV reporter at the time. I went into work early so I could get off in time and actually watch this, and they had everyone, basically, but people with disabilities. At that time you could pick up the phone and call the fashion labels. You know the brands and stuff and so I did. They strung me along for a year. Some flew me out, gave me clothes, patted me on the head and sent me on my way. That's decade two and that's when I developed my disability fashion styling system accessible, smart, fashionable, accessible, easy to put on and take off, smart, smart for your health and fashionable the wearer loves it.

Speaker 2: 12:41

And then decade three. I've had that experience mostly in LA. I sold my home on the East Coast. I moved here. I knew I wanted to make a difference because I figured one Getty image could do more than one way, more than I was doing, you know, offline and helping people. So I did that. But what really excites me about where I'm at which we'll talk about a little later is now I'm hyper-focused on solving two problems within the community, because Wes, I think we have this chasm and I know you can speak to this between dressing and living non-disabled and then living disabled. That transition is like going from first-class citizen to second, third or fourth-class citizen if you let people do it to you. And we want to help close that chasm, specifically when it comes to simplifying shopping and de-stressing dressing for the disabled, the chronically ill, as well as those who are just simply injured.

Speaker 1: 13:45

That's good. That's good and I appreciate you sharing just that journey and how you broke it down. You can tell that you've had to get that together.

Speaker 2: 13:59

I saw your eyes when I said three decades. You were like oh no, I'm sorry, I had some very kind people like wrapping up. So, yes, we got into a nice little bow for you.

Speaker 1: 14:13

No, but three decades seems like a lot of time. It even allows me to reflect on the work that I'm doing and understand that when you're trying to change things in the world, it takes time and regardless of how you perfect it, one year or one month you still find yourself having to spend more time into learning and advancing it.

Speaker 2: 14:40

I can only get into that West about the journey of being an entrepreneur. I feel like it's romanticized online a lot and my journey has taught me I'm now the type of CEO I wanna be and I think I've always been that way. But I was strictly just defining success by money how much cash flow I had, not integrity, not even making people angry, because sometimes if you're making the right people angry, that means you're doing the right thing. You know what I mean. Yeah, I know you can relate to that.

Speaker 1: 15:17

No, absolutely, and we definitely tap into that because I think entrepreneurship, regardless, is a good topic to talk about, but for two individuals that do have disabilities, I think that is important to share. I do see that there's a lack of conversation around entrepreneurship for people with disability and that go go go mentality it really doesn't speak to people that can't go, go go. But there should be stories that are shaped around and allowing people to understand what time looks like. Patience, like you said, like projecting, the way you see success and opportunity as a founder, as a CEO. So let's get into that, but before we cover, like, the entrepreneurship side because I will dig into the other side of what people don't know so much, because that's the real importance of this podcast. But I do wanna ask, because we were talking about the fashion system and definitely took three decades to get to where you are now what do you feel has been the response from the fashion industry when it comes to inclusivity in accessible fashion in 2023?

Speaker 2: 16:41

Yeah, I think that's a really great question, I would have to take you back to the 1990s, the 1980s. There was legislation passed prior to the ADA, which really got a lot of companies to moving and doing different things. I'll give you an example Most people don't know that Nordstrom has been advertising using models with disabilities since 1991. So this is nothing new. And you know what I think is happening in 2030? I think is happening in 2023, even though there was a lot kind of happening below the surface in the 90s and the early 2000s, but it was below the surface. People didn't really wanna see or hear from us. I think now that DE&I is a thing thing. Well, it's not becoming a thing as much after 2020, it seems, but they're firing all their DE&I, but it was a thing.

Speaker 2: 17:36

So I feel like the fashion industry is a microcosm of society, meaning that society is brilliant at presenting this illusion of inclusion, but it's performative and it's not because people want it to be performative. I wanna be really clear. There are some people in the fashion industry that want to make a real difference, that want to do more, but their hands are tied by their C-suite. People that don't see the value in putting money behind it If someone else contacts me and says I got $200 for you to give me your opinion. I just don't know. I'm gonna throw my hat at them. It's like that's not respectful. You would never tell a cisgender white male who's been in a space for 30 years. You have $200 for their insight. So I think that the fashion industry is moving in the right direction Too slow for me.

Speaker 2: 18:33

I'm gonna keep it real, which is why I'm excited about our new curation product with curatable. But I think we're going in the right direction, but it's never going. I'm gonna just be honest and this is not what people are gonna wanna hear. The CFDA is now partnering with GAMMIT. They're doing some good things. More Horton has done excellent things with design. There's so many wonderful people, but until we start to deal with the fact that people see us as viable fashion customers, until people understand that we are human and see our humanity, designing a different piece of clothing or curating clothing is not going to change attitudes. And writing for Grease Barrier attitude and no barriers.

Speaker 1: 19:25

That's so true. I mean, I've had my fair share with the adaptive clothing, I've done fashion shows and everything and, like you said, it is definitely moving slower than what it should. But I think the response has been, you know, like you said, it's being good to bring awareness, to create products and have all these different companies, from JC Penney's to Tommy Hill, figure, you know, having some type of clothing within their system.

Speaker 2: 19:54

But that's what I'm talking about JC Penney. They 100 years ago, about 100 years ago, when was it? Jc Penney has been around forever, right, but in the 1950s and the 1960s they actually had a whole magazine with clothing design disabilities.

Speaker 1: 20:15

Okay, so you said in the 19, right.

Speaker 2: 20:18

Like the 19, let's just say 1950s and 60s.

Speaker 1: 20:22

All right.

Speaker 2: 20:22

But they don't even really talk about it.

Speaker 1: 20:25

No, they don't, you know, and we're just noting that. So in the 1950s, before all of this extra awareness came in and media started to become larger, there were platforms like JC Penney's that did have advertisement that shared disabled bodies.

Speaker 2: 20:46

Yeah, and they did it through catalogs mostly. And I'm not. I'm not the disability fashion historian, catherine Hitchcock is coming out with an amazing book. It may already be out. She covers a lot of that. But the functional fashion movement in the 1960s had over what 30 major like Tommy Hillfigure type major designers at the time that were a part of it, but it never caught fire. It lit a match but it never caught fire, and that's because they're trying to shift and sell clothing without shifting the culture.

Speaker 1: 21:21

No, that's very true. I mean, again, like what I was going to share about my journey with adaptive clothing is, frankly, I don't wear it as much and it's because I mean I come from you know, I didn't just I guess I don't know, I wasn't raised, I didn't have my disability like when I was younger, and what I'm trying to get to is when, or at least from my perspective, is that individuals that have been born with disabilities have become more custom to an accessible clothing because, one, they've dealt with the complications more and two, once that innovation comes out is really speaking to you and adults that you know might have some type of limitations that really don't get them out. That's kind of how I felt when it first came out and I started getting products. And then when I when I you know, of course I tapped into the products, but I being so much into fashion, that's what I'm getting to.

Speaker 1: 22:27

I feel like most people in kids and youth and again, you get every now and then you'll see a stylish kid and some nice threads and they have a disability right but a lot of their perspective is that there's definitely not enough comfortable clothes.

Speaker 1: 22:43

So people wear comfortable clothes all the time, especially wheelchair users, and so what I'm trying to get to is that I don't see a lot of people coming up with their disabilities and being able to be a part of the fashion industry, right, yeah, so like street wear, you know, when, uh, young GZ had his line I'm just really speaking from all these different lines that even though I wore them as a teenager, I really couldn't have seen it.

Speaker 1: 23:11

I could have, but it wasn't like it was introduced to individuals with disabilities. So, for me to get into adaptive clothing, I'm thinking to myself, like, are these jeans going to be, you know, a material like my frame jeans? Or is these, you know, is this shirt going to really speak to me? And what I find is that there are certain items that speak to certain ability levels. Everything isn't, you know, accustomed to everybody. And so say, for instance, I did a fashion show and I know I'm like I went around that in a way, still because, you know, You're trying to help us say it because I think you think I use it all the time.

Speaker 2: 23:52

No, no, no, no, not at all, that's like don't, don't feel bad about me, I'm not sugarcoating it.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Trust me, I was just trying to get to this point. I did a fashion show one time and you know, and it was, I was modeling for a top brand and they was like you know, you're the wheelchair model, so of course in my mind you have clothing for wheelchair users. I'm going to go ahead, put these clothes on. The jeans were, or the short. The jeans were, they say they were for wheelchair users, but they didn't really have like the high back or low front, they just kind of had the elastic or, you know, the band.

Speaker 1: 24:31

Anyway, I wore the pants, I wore the shirt. The shirt had the magnetic closure at the top, but for me it's not something that I need. So, while I'm getting to it, even though I had a whole outfit on that was adaptive clothing, there was only probably one item that actually served me well, and they gave me a jacket. And this is where I had, like, the disconnect. They gave me this jacket to put on. They all started to pin it up and do all these things because it was a long, like trench coat kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 25:00

We might not look good. But after most fashion shows, if people don't know, most brands like you either take the clothes or they bring or they send them to you. So in my mind I'm like, all right, cool, I know this was bulky during the fashion show, but y'all don't send this jacket to me, it's going to be tailored and cropped for me. No, it was sent to me as a long trench coat, like the same, like they didn't even keep, like the nothing. So to me it was disheartening to know that I just represented this brand and I just represented these clothes that look like it was serving my community. But in reality, unless I came out of pocket to make it actually speak and compliment my body, it was going to sit in my closet and what I find is that most people go and grab these clothes thinking that they're serving or complimenting, and then once you get it, you're like this doesn't even work for me.

Speaker 1: 25:57

My experience to it was just where I truly didn't feel good about what it was looking and how it was being received by the disabled community because of who they see in it, like oh, wes wearing that, I can go buy that, I can go do this right, and then reality is like you can't even put these on or you can't wear it. It looked good but in reality the everyday movement within these clothes would be complicated. And again, I'm just sharing that. I'm not saying that everybody's gonna go put on a big long trench coat. What I'm saying is these are people that are in the industry, that are trying to serve disabled bodies and they can't even do it right.

Speaker 2: 26:42

Well, here's the thing that I love about what you said when I was working with Ecom, that one wasn't me, that one wasn't me, was it? I'm like, I'm close down everything, but working in Ecom, which is e-commerce, someone was like oh, this is just a photo shoot, just do it. Basically, and their main complaint about me was that I'm styled, I'm worried about styling the models as if it was personal styling. And that's the exact feedback I gave, and I don't want to give the oppression like I'm the only one that knows. That's not what I'm saying at all, and I think that I need you to hear me that in time that I work with someone, I have to be teachable. I have to know the right questions to ask. I have to say when I get it wrong, if something doesn't turn out the way that I want, even if I hire the third party to help you get full refund, no questions, my sincere apologies, that's it. I find that what's happening in fashion? You're absolutely right, because of course, I'm going to style it like a personal stylist, because that's what I said.

Speaker 2: 27:58

I said somebody's child, somebody's mama, somebody's grandmother, somebody's looking at this and going, oh man, I can buy this, this will work for my body type, just like we do when we look at anything else. And I remember I can't remember if it was a Vogue business panel or what panel I was on recently but someone said to me they were like oh, tell us your favorite adaptive fashion brand. And I said, honestly, I use curation, I use my styling system, because people want to wear the brands that they know and love. I just try to help them find the brands that they know and love, that honor their disabled bodies or their chronically ill bodies or their injured bodies. People don't. And because people always said why haven't you designed a line? Because I was like people don't know me. No offense, I mean, I'm not taking it and I am working on a design product now with a manufacturer. But that's different. I'm not out here trying to, you know, sell a lot of things from me because that's not what people want. And can I tell you, when I first that first decade of learning about disability, that was the thing that I was on stage. I wish I could find that tape. You know how you have the swimsuit. Or when they're asking you questions and they're like, what would you do? I was like I will design a line of clothing for people with disabilities and everybody was like, but that was because they were mostly non-disabled Giving answers for the non-disabled gays, as opposed to focusing on people with disabilities or the disabled community. And now today, I can honestly say that's the beauty of my. What Curatable is focused on now? Two things. That's where we live. We two step in Simplifying shopping, de-stressing dressing.

Speaker 2: 29:41

We're trying to get you in the brands you love.

Speaker 2: 29:43

We're trying to make it easy for you on those days when you're having spasms, when you're flare ups, when your feet are so swollen you can't even wear that normal pair of shoes. We teach people to have that go-to look. We're helping brands take what they are and you have identified at low hanging fruit and be able to say, oh, we can use this. We help them through that process. And then we not only help them through the process, we tell them who it could work for. So when they go into designing their core products for the next season, we've already shown them how they can do this effortlessly. And then our report and our work with those brands become a proof of concept for the C-suite who didn't wanna hear from them. So I just wanted to throw that in there because you're absolutely on point with your feedback. People are doing it for the non-disabled gaze and guess what? You are not. I think that people need to treat this as if they suddenly became a person with a chronic illness or a disability.

Speaker 1: 30:45

That's it.

Speaker 2: 30:46

that's it, it would change themselves in that place. Cool, it would change the whole game, because the people that are the most passionate that I deal with they don't tell me at first, but then they'll be like, yeah, my mother's a wheelchair user, or my cousin, it's a personal experience and they can relate to that.

Speaker 1: 31:06

Yeah, and when it comes to clothes, like fashion is confidence. You know what I mean, and I don't care. When you get dressed up, you're looking a mirror. You're like, whoa wait, your hair ain't even gotta be done. I mean it does. It brings a spark and it's a light that anyone should have just to be able to feel good in their clothes but also wanna be seen in them. And for me, my experience with it was that it does need more work. There should be more voices with the lived experiences, but not only the lived experience.

Speaker 1: 31:40

When you're thinking of fashion, you need to get people in there to actually know fashion. Everybody isn't a fashion expert or go out and just be stylist or industries right. You need to get people in there. You need to get people with swag and all of this, because that's how you get to change and understand what people wanna wear. If you're trying to like, say, for instance, there's the generic colors, right, so the khaki, the black and the blue, for the most part, like you see a lot of stuff, they're not really a lot of good colors and stuff and it's not swaggy, it's just like let me throw this on, I don't even feel really comfortable. I don't even feel comfortable in adaptive clothes, like how can I do you know? And again, everything isn't for everybody. And even when you know that, through your design you should specify it, so like, if you're gonna have a pair of pants for a person in a wheelchair, you should specify if it's gonna work for a person that is mobile and independent in a wheelchair.

Speaker 2: 32:51

No more questions. That's why we're here.

Speaker 1: 32:54

They don't know those questions, Cause I'm like I've wore pants that have Velcro on the side but when I transferred, the Velcro pop open, so then the preans are trying to fall off of me. So I'm like this doesn't actually work for me, but I know it will work for someone that is in a wheelchair all the time. It brings comfort level, it's easier for them to access. But if they're in it all the time and not having to transfer out and things, these pants speak to them. But why can't you promote it that way, Right Like instead-.

Speaker 2: 33:26

They don't know.

Speaker 1: 33:27

There you go, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:30

I mean, this is not a diss. I've had to learn things. I've made mistakes. You know I used to champion, you know, unless someone had a heart, you know assistive technology to help their heart. I was like, oh, magnetic, magnetic shirts. And then my dad, who is now in need of wearing and my dad was clean, you know, he was suited and booted. He was like always clean, and then he said I'm not ready for those clothes. Yet he could barely lift his arm. I'm like, daddy, you cannot, I have to help you. This is literally what I do. Do you want TMZ to show me not helping, like my dad can't get into the phone.

Speaker 2: 34:15

Look, but what he was saying I've learned so much from him and I've been in this game for a long time and I want to continue to learn what he was saying is I don't identify with that.

Speaker 1: 34:27

So let's just say that adaptive fashion need to have some drip to it, right yeah?

Speaker 2: 34:34

And not only that, the people that are behind it that are learning. You know, stop telling people, stop talking and I say this with love, and if I'm ever doing this, call me out. If you are in the fashion and disability community, stop telling people with disabilities that they're going to help you design a line that they don't know anything about garment construction. They know nothing about the things that they should know. You're like oh well, we know that, but they don't know. You don't know. You don't know what you don't know. So, like for me, you know, my dad helped educate me and then I had some other instances. So I don't suggest, you know, magnetic tops. I suggest tops with magnetic snaps. Why the snap will stay in place.

Speaker 1: 35:18

Trust me, steph, my experience with them tops. Oh Lord, I'd be out there in the streets and my shirt done popped open. I'm like, oh man, this ain't even a bed Like again. It's not comfortable. It looks great. If you see the headline, you're shinin' a thousand times, You're thinkin' it's a good thing, they buzz, but at the same time, again, when you don't get the insight, and even when you do, you're not really trying to change things. If this model is workin' for you, if it's work for you to get people to be sympathetic to the cause and then give, because that's what I found myself being around a lot of areas where people are receiving funds to create things for people with disabilities, and then what you create doesn't really even help that individual as much as the funds helped you.

Speaker 2: 36:16

And yeah, fashion-wise stereotypes. And that's what I mean by doing things for the non-disabled gaze. If somebody is crying while you happen people doing things, I don't care what it is from a public speaking perspective, for any aspect, right, that's not what we're doing. As a person with a disability, I don't want you crying for me, feeling sorry for me. I want you to finally see me like a black woman.

Speaker 2: 36:43

Don't tell me you can't see color, all this melanin you missin' out. You need to see color. You need to understand that my blackness is a part of culture, of American culture. I am a black American woman. Don't tell me you colorblind. Don't tell me I'm differently able or you're not. That I don't want to hear that. That's not a compliment and I think that that's the issue. We get people that are not disabled, which is cool. You can learn. People know more than me that are not disabled and have studied and have PhDs in areas. But if you don't understand the culture, if you don't sit down and begin the conversation by listening, it's not be able to tell in your advocacy.

Speaker 1: 37:24

Honestly, steph, the way that I see it is you referenced it earlier Most individuals, when they get comfortable enough, they speak on having an individual in their life with a disability. And when I think about the development of these things by non-disabled individuals, they're created off of their own perception of the person they see at home. And if you already look at them as somebody debilitating, you're not empowering them, you're not putting these clothes on them, you're not trying to make them look really fresh and dressed and get out. I definitely feel like even certain people.

Speaker 1: 37:58

I'm still like where are these kids that you speak up, you know, like not being rude or anything, but if your story and stuff come from the children you have at home, then, hey, they should be dipped out in these clothes that you're working so hard to push out and then you should be sharing that and I think that that brings a lot of awareness, like you said, to advocacy. The advocacy is not that good because your perception of the people you have around you isn't that good. You're just kind of just tagging on, jumping on, you're jumping on a bandwagon, right Like, and it's not allowing those that are authentic with their mission and their passion room. It's not allowing them room or space.

Speaker 2: 38:44

Yeah, and I have to say, was someone maybe listening? Is like, oh, there has to be something positive. I started with the positive and I am still hopeful. That's why I am going to do this until I feel like, ok, I'm moving on to something else. I think we advocate and I'm taking responsibility for this I have spent the last three years with my own medical struggles with my dad and other people that I love and care for.

Speaker 2: 39:16

We've got to change the culture. We don't change culture by telling people we need to change culture. We change culture by changing culture. Like Issa Rae, I like to use her as an example. She changed the way she showed that black female characters are three-dimensional. We're not just these flat, we're all the same. Boo, boo, boo, boo, boo girlfriend. She gave us. She didn't give us. She showed the world who we are.

Speaker 2: 39:48

That has to happen through edutainment, meaning that we need to create the culture that we want to see. I don't mean getting online and going only yeah, it's helpful when Wes says, hey, this is what it's like for me to transfer into my car. Some people don't even know that. But beyond that, wes is now hosting a show where you see him with the baddest. Cars like his cars are part of your thing. So that's shifting the culture, because it's not only selling people how oh man, this is okay, this is how he does that. Oh, look at his, look at the suite of cars, look at what he's into while driving his car. That changes perception faster than anything else that we can do.

Speaker 1: 40:30

No, true, it's not about what you can put on paper and what you use to action, that you take and what you do, the awareness that you bring to the everyday life, the lived experiences, because the lived experiences going to amplify the advocacy. There are people with disabilities out here living. You know what I mean and if that was shown it would definitely shift. So, again, we definitely, like you said, I appreciate you coming in and hitting it with the positivity. Again, my choice when it comes to clothing is what I like to wear and what makes me, what's comfortable to my body. And even though everyone doesn't make adaptive clothing, I will say that there are clothing that I can adapt to and it does compliment me. Well, if there was, if more brands and things understood that, if they paid attention to what they are selling also, they would be able to know that it can serve a certain group of people.

Speaker 1: 41:32

Every product might not right, but most products can. And so, again, that's the work that you're doing is being able to say, hey, yeah, these are clothing that can be or have been created to your body, but I can also go and tap into other brands that have things that can compliment you and maybe nail that image or whatever that you're trying to portray. So we appreciate your work, steph, and we love it. And again, I can't wait to be suited and booted at my gala so I get to tell you at first hand on how this experience is. But if you know my girl Lolo she was on the show before but Lolo is a real great friend of me and Steph Lolo everywhere and from you know, if I'm not mistaken, steph is the one that's making Lolo look good in each and everything, and so if you see Lolo, you definitely see Steph, and Steph might not be there, but them threads. That was Steph, right, like.

Speaker 2: 42:38

And I and I I've enjoyed my partnership with her and I think I'm not sure who your audience is. Who's listening to you. Can you give me some insight into who you think your audience is, because I would love to share something that I think would be specific, that kind of spoke to them?

Speaker 1: 42:58

I think my audience is pretty well rounded. You know I have individuals that tap into different subjects. Of course, the disability community is pretty large, at least a black disabled community. I know there's a lot more people, but I know I gravitate to a lot of people that look like me, as well as entrepreneurs and so on, so you definitely got some innovators and creators that will be listening to this.

Speaker 2: 43:21

Okay. Well, I really want to speak to any black designers, tailors this is, in whole industry Stylus. We are finally putting together a course. I am not good at those written court where you have to do them on your own, so they will be video based and they will be interactive, so we can start sharing the knowledge that I have with people to help with styling. But, in addition, designers, man, let's do this. I need to see more of you in this space because the designs come from the designers, the how people would tailor or do things. That's going to come from your style aesthetic, and we need to see different style aesthetic and I don't see you in the rooms, I don't see you at the event and I want to see more BIPOC stylus, more people, especially black people. This is a whole thing that I feel like is that's money on the table?

Speaker 1: 44:23

It is money on the table. I appreciate you sharing black people, black designers, anyone that's in the fashion industry of color. Tap into adaptive clothing. Tap into this market to create clothing for people that are just like you, that could just be living a little different, and just understand that. If you're getting in this and you're creative, I already know you're creative, we know you're creative and that's why we're telling you to create some more, because you want to comment that I'm the only or one of the only I don't ever believe the word only because the world is too big.

Speaker 2: 45:02

One of the only black fashion stylists for people with disabilities would make me chuckle. This woman, so cute, from Italy and was like, hi, I'm researching the disability stylist. I was like, oh, that's cute, she's in my language and she's writing me asking me about interviewing. It's just adorable and so it is global. But I don't see enough people that look like me or you, wes, that are saying this is important and that might lead to the apprehension of our community to adopt and feel comfortable with identifying with disability, because I'm going to get you suckered and things that make us really feel like we already a minority. We don't want anybody else putting us down. I've heard people say and then I'm thinking well, that's kind of a white supremacist way of looking at things and that you can't. Are you a minority? Are you at the bottom? So I think that we need to kind of redefine individually because no group is a monolith but really redefine what it means to be a black person, either serving people with disabilities or being a full, functioning part of that community.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Hmm, yeah, I think so. I think that that's important to highlight and allow people to be aware of that. Yeah, no, and I just think about the whole the layers that the black community deal with, and the reason why they lack of acceptance is when it comes to disabled bodies, and then how it's overlooked as we start to climb, you know, and knowing that our services could literally serve someone that's in our community, right, and yeah, I think that's something that, of course, we have to dig in a lot deeper when it comes to that subject, because a lot of people might see the DEI conversation going around and I think a lot of these conversations are based on just the white community, in a sense, the hierarchy of the individuals that are making decisions, but it's also grass-roated within your community. It's grass-roated within the people that are around you, and so when you have, when you're talking about black individuals with disabilities, we're not looking, you know, for acceptance on the outside of the community as much as we're trying to be welcome within our own community, and that conversation isn't really provided.

Speaker 1: 47:43

But I was just having a conversation with an entrepreneur recently and I said I have more issues trying to find access into black businesses than I have into any other businesses and, unfortunately, as much as I want to raise awareness and promote a product and even go to an event most people and I get it. We're just trying to get in where we can fit in, because we don't have that many resources and opportunity. I got it yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:14

But you can't forget the people that are with you you know what I mean and the people that want to be involved in the way that you amplify your brand and your business is to be able to include everybody.

Speaker 1: 48:29

And as we're getting into entrepreneurship and we're seeing entrepreneurship get pushed more for black communities, please include people with disabilities. That is something that you don't overlook, you know, and that's something that you really should find a way to create service within a disabled community with your products, and I just think that is important. There's a lot of innovation that I see and there's a lack of conversation around disability in the black community. So, as I said, we will dig into that conversation on another day with a group of people, so that we can have a collective group of perspectives when it comes to that. But I do believe that it's not hard to see, and we have to look at ourselves and look at our advocacy as the black community and see if we're doing a good enough job or can we do better, and I think that a lot of people will become aware of that.

Speaker 2: 49:27

I think that I agree with you you need a variety of perspectives. We can definitely do better as a community. I mean, I think anyone that approaches disability has to humble themselves and understand. You know, people with disabilities weren't expected to be running podcasts and companies and jumping in and out of cars and transferring it. You know that wasn't the plan. Even wheelchairs aren't even built to be all industries.

Speaker 1: 49:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:55

You know, you know this Wes.

Speaker 1: 49:57

Yeah, my fear is definitely.

Speaker 2: 49:59

Yeah, you know, with the ADA and you know where we are with that. There's a court case that's going before the Supreme Court, supreme Court and quotations for me I'm sorry they've been tripping lately so they get quotes. It's going before them in October and what I'll say about that case is the overall view of the case is that there, someone brought you know this case saying, hey, we shouldn't there, shouldn't be able to be a tester that tests to see if a specific place is accessible or not. But what they don't understand is, duh, most people with disabilities you know where I'm going Like they need to. We have to have testers, because you've talked about hotels, you've talked about different things where they'll say, oh yeah, this is ADA compliant and we're like, yeah, it's not really, it's just not because, either the shower head is too high, the bench is too hard, like there are just so many little nuances that if people knew they would do better.

Speaker 1: 51:04

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 51:05

Well, I just think that you know. That's why I didn't get on yesterday and talk about the anniversary of the ADA. I'm really concerned about if the ADA will be fully gutted after October.

Speaker 1: 51:16

Yeah, no, I definitely think that there's a lot of concerns. I didn't truly celebrate it, not to the level that I see a lot of people. I mean being a part of this community, being an advocate within this community and seeing how the intersections within this community aren't really being aligned with the voices that are around. Like, ada is serving a lot of people, yes, it is making things accessible and accommodating, even for me, but then, on the other end, there's a lack of awareness by just human beings period, of even what that means, and so, with that, constant barriers are created. They're created, brothers, because of race, religion. They're created because of the intersections if it's not on race or religion, like there's so many different barriers that so, and what I mean by that is, say, people. I see a lot of awareness around flights and airline travel and that's cool, and I see a lot of awareness and a lot of times when I see people amplifying.

Speaker 1: 52:24

I guess my biggest thought is like, until you put a black person in that room, you're not actually doing a good enough job, because there's a lot of other layers of discrimination when it comes to people with disabilities that look different than those that are trying to advocate, and when you're not in a, you haven't put yourself in a position to advocate for everyone, no matter if they look like you or not. You think that way that you look is the primary lens when it comes to disability. But when we get out into society they're like oh no, you got a disability too. And now you got those layers of judgment where people are judging you because of the way you look. They're on top of what you're claiming as a disability. Don't get loud, right, because now that's another layer of microaggression. So I'm just sharing that, because when I do see a lot of advocacy and I do see a lot of work, I have to stress to people that it doesn't necessarily mean that it's serving me.

Speaker 2: 53:21

Right, and here's the thing I know we've been talking about this, but the one thing that I very rarely share in public, because it's not something that I would even tell people that you won't ever see me doing this I will do this stealth Like no one will know that I'm really doing this. But the reason that I'm so, so, so passionate about this is because what we can change here I think about people that are living in lovely places but they may not have pavement so they don't have access to wheelchairs. I feel like every time we fight a fight or we advocate here, not that here is better than there, that's not what I'm saying, but when you put a light on it, we can put a light on it here, like me moving from the East Coast to LA, right here near Hollywood. It's like the light that's on the work that I do with Lolo and other people now. It's very different from the work when I was doing it off camera, where people couldn't see it, and that's what's really important to me.

Speaker 2: 54:25

What about people who are still being put in orphanages?

Speaker 2: 54:29

I just saw something where I think it was somewhere in Germany a child was. They were institutional lies, because those are the people I want my work to have such an impact that it will be nonsensical to think that someone that's born with any disability visible I hate to say invisible, because disabilities aren't really invisible that's kind of I know that's popular to say, but I think those, I think people who don't have access to have a loud voice, who will never be on a plane, who will never have an iPhone, who will never not because they can't it may not even be culturally something that they want to do, but they still should have access to comfort and be able to emulate in a way, be able to work if they want to, like. I think for me, at the end of the day, people that are unhoused or overlooked, or those are the people that my work, I really want to impact, because if we can shift culture and help, you can't change anyone, but if you can help shift those mindsets it can really have a great impact on people.

Speaker 1: 55:45

And I think that that kind of, just as we wrap this up, when you look at fashion and you look at the conversation that we've had even though we veered off into one way and then came back everything is important because when you provide advocacy for someone and they receive it, it allows that person to become confident within themselves and they find more confidence by knowing what they have access to. And when you do that, you're allowing someone to now create and define themselves.

Speaker 2: 56:28

Yep.

Speaker 1: 56:29

Defining yourself allows you to go into the world and create the reality despite the reality that you're going into. But when you can't define yourself, you're living based on someone else's definition and you're going into society and facing the barriers that someone else has defined you to face, and all we need is a voice. All we need is someone to speak up. So when that person can start to find themselves and define themselves now they're in those stores looking for some threads that show their image right, that represent them in a better way. It allows them to give society a different way to view them.

Speaker 2: 57:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:26

Right, and so, again, everything speaks Rather. We're trying to push for more ADA laws rather we're trying to push for more access. Rather we're trying to make more clothes fashionable. What we're doing is trying to give the individual enough options to be confident enough with their disabled body that they can go out and define themselves regardless of how you see them, because they're going to allow you to see them differently. At least, that's how I feel right.

Speaker 2: 57:57

No, I would have to agree with that. And the last thing I will say is anyone can become a person with a disability at any moment. What would you want? How would you want your closet to look? What clothing would you wanna have access to? Would you wanna pay $200 for something you really love and then spend an extra 50 to 75, maybe sometimes upward to $125 extra dollars to have that tailor because they don't see your humanity? It's a part of seeing someone's humanity, yeah absolutely, steph.

Speaker 1: 58:42

I really appreciate you joining me and locking in, and, of course, we could have definitely did another hour with this chat. There's a lot to unpack when it comes to fashion intersections and disability, entrepreneurship and disability, and I think that we're gonna hone in on that in some future projects soon. Anyway, so you guys stay tuned for that. But how do people find you? How do people learn more about curatable? How do people ask questions when it comes to fashion that maybe we didn't get a chance to cover?

Speaker 2: 59:17

Oh, I love that. Well, they can hit me up on Instagram. They can either find me personally at disability fashion stylist, it's the same on threads and Instagram, or they can find curatable on Instagram or threads and we will be moving into creating more content for LinkedIn so you'll also be able to. That's a real B2B focus for us there, so you'll be able to ask questions and hopefully get answers. I don't know about TikTok, but YouTube shorts definitely that might happen. I have a personal TikTok. I just you know.

Speaker 1: 1:00:04

You know, Steph, at the end of the day, that's where the advocacy is. So you just have to look at TikTok as a way. You just repurpose content and you put the tick. You just yeah, right, We'll talk about it.

Speaker 2: 1:00:18

I just don't know that. I love it for curatable, but I'm finding a way to maybe advocate as Stephanie.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

There we go.

Speaker 2: 1:00:28

If that makes sense. So, and you know the more that I kind of get back in the game after being in my mind, a way of it. You know, I think that I'll find my way. But they can definitely find us even at curatablecom. Send us a message there and don't forget, pronounce the eight C-U-R-A-B-L-E curatable. That'll make it easy to remember. We'd love to hear from you and you can hit me up in my indirect messages and, just you know, ask the question. Questions that I'm not able to answer is how do I address with this particular chronic illness. I would have to ask you maybe 10, 20 more questions in order to really be able to help you. So if that's the type of question you have, you might need to book me for a consultation. That's a better way to handle that. But if you just wanna ask some general questions that I can then answer and maybe post for everybody to have you know to be to benefit from, I'm happy to do that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

Absolutely All right, steph. Well, thank you again. Another episode of Out of the Shadow podcast. My name is Wesley Hamilton. Thank you guys, appreciate it Bye. As we conclude another inspiring episode, I want to remind you that success isn't just about the spotlight. It's also about the shadows. It's about the struggles we conquer, the unseen battles we fight and the silent victories we claim. I'm Wesley Hamilton and you've been listening to Out of the Shadows podcast, where we illuminate the stories of often left untold. Join me again next week as we venture back into the shadows and bring another amazing individual into the light. Until then, remember, no story is too small to inspire. Keep fighting, keep winning and stay out the shadows PLAYING.