Alex Migale - Kick It Out - S1 E2

The Leadership Matters Podcast  

SEASON: 1
EPISODE: 2

Alex Migale – Kick It Out  

In this episode, Andy Dent from The Oxford Group chats with Alex Migale, Head of People, Learning & Culture from Kick it Out.  

This conversation focuses on embracing leadership creativity, mentoring influence, and learning development from a research-based background.  

Within the podcast Alex shares his three desert island leadership books: 

The Culture Map: Breaking Through the Invisible Boundaries of Global Business - Erin Meyer 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Boundaries/dp/1610392507 

Nonviolent Communication - Marshall B. Rosenberg 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Life-Guides/dp/189200528X 

Mindset - Dr Carol Dweck 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindset-Updated-Changing-Fulfil-Potential/dp/147213995X 

Credits  

Presenter: Andy Dent – The Oxford Group  

Production: 
Jennifer Royles – The Oxford Group 

Joe Kendrick – The Oxford Group 

Artwork: Jan Lewis – The Oxford Group  

Don’t forget to like, comment, share and subscribe to the podcast. 

About The Oxford Group:  

We believe leadership matters… With over 35 years of experience creating trusted and engaged leaders and managers, The Oxford Group is known and valued for the unique relationships we build with our clients and their people and the results of our development programmes.  Our leadership and coaching solutions create a significant impact, whether it's for those entering their first managerial position or those facing contemporary leadership challenges. Our team comprises more than 200 multilingual consultants and coaches, serving five continents.

The Oxford Group is a City & Guilds business. City & Guilds' purpose is to help people and organisations to develop their skills for personal and economic growth. Each City & Guilds business has a distinct focus; our combined products and services provide a comprehensive range of work-relevant qualifications, assessment, training and learning support services.

To find out more about why we believe leadership matters visit: https://www.oxford-group.com/ 

#leadership #leadershipdevelopment #leadershiptraining #leadershipcoaching 

#leadershipskills #leadershipmotivation #leadershipstyle #leadershipmindset 

#leadershiplessons #leadershipmatters #leadershiptips #leadershipgoals 

#transformationalleadership #executiveleadership #teamleadership 

#authenticleadership #innovativeleadership #webelieveleadershipmatters #TheOxfordGroup 

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:39:05
Unknown
Hello and welcome to the Leadership Matters podcast. The podcast for people passionate about leadership and organizational performance, offering insight and inspiration from peers have great experience to share from developing leaders in some of the world's leading organizations. I'm your host and leader of the Oxford Group, and here at the Oxford Group, we've had the privilege of developing leaders, organisations across the globe for over 35 years.

00:00:39:06 - 00:01:02:12
Unknown
We fundamentally believe that leadership matters. As leaders, what we choose to focus on and how we show up on a day to day basis really does shape organizations and the people experience. So if you're interested in learning more about leadership development, then this is definitely the podcast for you as it's our first season. We love you to subscribe or hit like today.

00:01:02:13 - 00:01:15:01
Unknown
To fuel us on the journey to more episodes. So without further ado, let's dive into today's episode.

00:01:15:02 - 00:01:41:07
Unknown
Hello and welcome to the Leadership Matters Podcast. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Alex Migale, head of People Learning and Culture at Kick it out. Alex and I go back a couple of years in Alex's previous role with Moonpig group. We worked on a couple of programs together, so I'm delighted to have Alex here today to share some some insights probably from your new role as well.

00:01:41:07 - 00:02:14:09
Unknown
Alex, which I know you were only a couple of months into, so I guess kicking us off. Alex It would be great to really understand where your passion for leadership development came from. I know you've got lots of other passions in the HR space, but really keen to key in on the leadership bit. Sure. I mean, when I think about what leadership means to me and as an adult, when I think about that specific question around, you know, what really has helped me to become a leader, I think about family.

00:02:14:09 - 00:02:40:02
Unknown
I think about my great grandmother and looking at the influence that she had across her community. First and foremost, coming from Mauritius, tons of family living in France, in other countries, coming over to visit her. Specifically, they came in to the UK. I must go and see Andrea. I must do that. Seeing that influence and pull definitely kind of excites me because I think, well, leadership is far beyond what we see it as in the workplace.

00:02:40:03 - 00:02:58:13
Unknown
It comes into so many different aspects of our lives. When it comes into a lot of our motivations, it comes into so many of our decision making moments as individuals. And even when we think about the family dynamics that we have, there's leadership in there as well, both from the children that we're helping to raise, as well as the elders that we have above us in the long before us.

00:02:58:13 - 00:03:18:13
Unknown
So there's I think it comes into so many different parts of people's lives that fascinates me. But be I want to be a part of it. I want to be able to help people take away skills that aren't just for the workplace, but actually can help them in all different walks of life. Thank you, Alex. That's a really nice take.

00:03:18:13 - 00:03:41:00
Unknown
Actually. I love the family analogy. Really, really interesting. So thanks for sharing. The other thing it's always nice to give our listeners a view of is your career history, how you got to where you are now. And I know it's quite an interesting one, so. So talk us through that. How far do you want to go back? Well, from the start, maybe as far back as you want, but probably from the start and then to where you are now.

00:03:41:01 - 00:03:57:13
Unknown
Sure. It probably seems a bit cryptic when I start off with this. Like I started in Sports and leisure as a lifeguard needing some money as a teenager, getting ready to go to university because I didn't want to get a student loan. So I want to save as much money as I could. Doing that thing because I could swim was okay.

00:03:57:14 - 00:04:34:13
Unknown
Then I realised that I got really annoyed with people swimming badly. So I thought, Right, let me become a swim teacher and accidentally fell upon teaching, training, that sort of thing. And then progressing into like a swim coach and went into becoming a duty manager and then, you know, looking off to a swim school in the leisure centre, the local community leisure centre, through discovering that coaching and through discovering what it is to be a line manager of humans, I started to think, Well, I think I enjoy the coaching piece more and I want to find ways to do more of this stuff, but also like not just the technical piece around swimming and coaching,

00:04:34:13 - 00:05:02:01
Unknown
but more about the, you know, work efficiencies and just the human element to like coaching and leading people and very quickly decided to become a lifeguard trainer first. I trained all these different technical qualifications and I guess it was kind of factoring into that leadership piece to be able to lead the classroom, lead the experience that I'm giving to people and I kind of had a reflection point where I thought, okay, do I want to stay in this industry?

00:05:02:01 - 00:05:39:00
Unknown
Because I didn't quite enjoy the management role that I was in, or do I want to move into something different? Opportunity at Apple came up, so I became a customer trainer teaching people how to use their phones for like photography and stuff, but also teaching people videography skills and audiology skills using like music design software and stuff. So really kind of getting into the creative elements and helping people to really embrace that creativity and the stuff that's in their head and putting it out there in some way, shape or form that I really, really enjoyed doing a lot of the customer side of things, But I found most enjoyment out of doing the in-store stuff

00:05:39:00 - 00:06:10:09
Unknown
for the colleagues I was working with. So a lot of the internal training pieces and I wasn't part of the L&D team at the time, but I really kind of came into this L&D thing through that I did take up a career experience called the Global Guest Trainer Experience, where I got flown out to the USA. I did a whole batch of different like training pieces, and that's where I think I did a lot of growing up in my career and understanding how to help influence people, but also help to like how to help develop people, be better versions of themselves and be even better at the things that they do.

00:06:10:09 - 00:06:29:04
Unknown
So that way they can deliver their best sort of work. And that's where I kind of came up with the goal of becoming an L&D manager someday. I didn't want to go back to university because I went down the sciences route and I did well and the last degree that I did was clinical research in human nutrition, which is very different to the field that I'm in now.

00:06:29:04 - 00:06:45:07
Unknown
But I kind of said to myself, I don't want to go back to university and do another degree. I don't want to do a HR degree, but I still want L&D role. That's definitely where I went ahead. So I moved into Zendesk again, external training, but it started to do more and more internal training during my tenure there.

00:06:45:09 - 00:07:20:06
Unknown
Then I moved to the Financial Times and purely focused on internal learning there. That's where I really got to, I guess, build what I wanted. Learning to be amongst a major department in the organisation, working very closely with the L&D team, I got a further insight into what the more holistic approach to learning could be, rather than just the training that I was delivering and thinking about how we can scale learning across various different parts of the globe and really kind of help people to use the technologies that we had to be more productive to actually get more of the results that they wanted.

00:07:20:07 - 00:07:40:07
Unknown
Furlough happened with COVID and I was sort of thinking right of rested a bit. Now I'm playing piano, a hell of a lot more. Now what do I do with my time? So one of my friends spoke about a challenge that he'd sort of set up on, on LinkedIn to kind of mentor a couple of people and just help them find their feet through time, which was quite difficult.

00:07:40:07 - 00:07:58:06
Unknown
People were, you know, being made redundant. They had no income, but they had this idea that they wanted to start a business. So there was ball and mentor black business, which kind of does what it says on the tin. But Akilah Benjamin was the director and is still the director of the and it's moved forwards a hell of a lot since then.

00:07:58:07 - 00:08:17:09
Unknown
But we came up with this idea of mentoring say 100 people LinkedIn came back and said no do 300 says okay, 400, but we need some money to make this work because we're just two humans we can't mentor all 300 people is just too much. And yes, you know, I'm furloughed. He's got his own business so he can attribute time, but that's a tall order.

00:08:17:09 - 00:08:35:08
Unknown
So we went out crowdfunded we got a significant amount of money, very quickly, but we had £10,000 within 24 hours raised and I think within two weeks, 20,000 near, give or take. So that's where we said, okay, let's do this thing properly. And that's where I really found my passion for ED and I work and is still learning based.

00:08:35:08 - 00:09:00:01
Unknown
So I was very much in my element, but that's where I really kind of figured that I want to do more in this sort of space. I found my job at Moonpig just off the back of the the pandemic and starting remotely. It was weird, but my first ever L&D role in the HR team L&D manager managed to achieve my goal seven years later, and I kind of found myself in that position saying, Well, now what, okay, just get the ground like done.

00:09:00:01 - 00:09:36:13
Unknown
When it comes to like understanding what the foundations of L&D is generally. And then you can kind of think about it from there. And the natural progression towards head of came into mind at some point. But that's kind of where I did a lot of my testing, a lot of playing around with different concepts and ideas and thinking about how I could actually help leaders lead better, how I can help managers manage better, how can of individuals think about their careers and think about their strengths and their opportunities to develop in a completely different way that actually enables them to be more resilient, to be more, you know, future proof, if anything, then I mean,

00:09:36:14 - 00:10:07:11
Unknown
it almost came as a as the perfect alignment of two worlds where now it kick out being in a role that helps me to really connect to the EDI peace that I'm really passionate about. But of course, the L.A. piece, the the, the education of people and helping people to really understand what good can look like in a number of different ways, both professionally and personally too, is really where I get a chance to actually, you know, play around with a whole batch of different things that I've had the joy of doing so far.

00:10:07:12 - 00:10:27:01
Unknown
MM I remember when you first shared the news for me, I was like, the job could have literally been made for you, so I'm sure you're absolutely loving it. And I'm sure we'll get into a bit of that later. One of the things that we're always keen to know is in terms of if there was a magic recipe and I said, there is never a magic recipe, it's never that simple.

00:10:27:01 - 00:10:52:04
Unknown
But what are the things that you often build in, in terms of approaches to development activities that you think inspire that growth in leaders to get them to change their behavior or to drive performance? What you kind of go to is, you know, those foundational pieces that you build into programs. Sure. I mean, I'm pretty sure my current CEO is sick and tired of me saying it, to be honest.

00:10:52:05 - 00:11:13:12
Unknown
But I always start with a learning needs analysis. It sounds really simple because it is, but I can't do anything without understanding what problems were trying to fix what they look like. They smell like they feel like they taste like how they manifest themselves in the physical workspace and then understand what sort of things could actually be useful to the audiences that we're delivering to.

00:11:13:13 - 00:11:36:14
Unknown
And, you know, whether that's a guide, whether that's an actual workshop, whether that's a checklist, even just what sort of things will actually be the hardest hitting to help inspire people to change a behaviour, a mindset, a thing that they do. And I think, you know, without understanding people's motivations and understanding more about the audience that you're delivering to, it's going to be impossible to understand exactly what sort of things will help them to change and improve.

00:11:37:00 - 00:11:58:03
Unknown
I think another thing, I mean, we've all heard death by PowerPoint. I think COVID is definitely amplified. Yeah, that phrase, right? We can't shy away from some PowerPoints and slide decks. Where possible, I want to inject as much humour and like relatability into what I do, because that's that's where the emotional connection in my mind kind of really lands.

00:11:58:03 - 00:12:17:01
Unknown
That's where someone can go, Oh, I've been doing that right? That makes perfect sense if you're doing it this way. And okay, they have a feeling about that moment and that's the bit that they remember most, and that's what's going to help them to kind of change their their ways a little bit towards something that's hopefully better for them as well as the organization and people that they work with.

00:12:17:01 - 00:12:38:14
Unknown
Right. Um, more than anything, I also try and make sure that there's some element of play. I like mischief just generally because it's just how I am. I can't help myself. But at the same time I realise that, you know, there's a common misconception with with creativity. Most people think that adults lose creativity as we get older. And no, we really just learn rules to help us be more successful.

00:12:39:00 - 00:13:11:09
Unknown
We don't lose creativity because we have to apply creativity to those roles to problem solve. We lose imagination. Yeah, and you know, people who play with Lego and do these sorts of very thinky, creative tasks are really good with imagining something and then finding out ways to do it. So if I can implant some element of play where there are building blocks of some description for people to play with and be silly, get it wrong, inject their own sense of humour, you know, is sarcastic as the British population often is actually build that into it because that's the bit that's going to help people go.

00:13:11:11 - 00:13:47:10
Unknown
You know what? That was not just good, not just all right, that was great because of I got a chance to do something that actually made me remember something maybe from childhood or something new. And then link that to a learning moment. That's actually something they're going to apply going forwards. And creating those challenges that evoke the different emotions probably is one of the key things that I always kind of come back to when it comes to anything change oriented, whether it's a, you know, changing the culture in an organisation or whether it's actually just helping someone to develop and change their skill sets ever so slightly or the way they approach a problem, it's

00:13:47:10 - 00:14:13:06
Unknown
always going to be change. So they need to feel a positive, something about that change. And they can always come back to what about. So any like real kind of go to tools or that could be diagnostic tools or it could be methods or models, you know, stuff that you think have really hit the mark from a leadership development perspective over the years that you've used.

00:14:13:07 - 00:14:31:04
Unknown
And I kind of I try and read as much as I can and try and I mean, I'm dyslexic, so my reading is very slow. So I audiobooks is always the thing that I get to. So I'm always trying to imagine what these different tools and models look like. And I draw those out. And sometimes it's actually giving that as a resource.

00:14:31:04 - 00:14:55:01
Unknown
Something is just my scribblings on the paper, but sometimes that's enough for people. And I think I take an investigative approach and I guess that's because of my scientific background for education. I think of the skills that I learned at university to create a very simple protocol that someone else can follow in a scientific lab themselves and just replicate my work effectively.

00:14:55:03 - 00:15:15:04
Unknown
If I can do that in that space, I should be able to be somewhat formulaic in the way that I do that in the learning space as well. So my main tool is actually following the process of a researcher actually going through the investigation tools that they use in investigative medicine, which is my background education wise. Fab, thank you.

00:15:15:04 - 00:15:37:12
Unknown
Okay. So the next question is a big one really, because I was reading a paper this morning from the Corporate Research Forum about, you know, the future of leadership, I guess, and how leadership has changed from post-pandemic pre-pandemic to post-pandemic. And there's some interesting stuff that came out in there around, you know, the challenges we are facing right now.

00:15:37:12 - 00:16:11:12
Unknown
But interested to hear your thoughts on what you think the biggest challenge for the biggest challenges for leaders right now. Gosh. Andy yes, it I think one of the biggest challenges that we have right now is the fact that we've got the most diverse workforce at play all at the same time where we've got lots of different and I hate using the word generation, but lots of different generations with different communication styles and preferences, different working habits, different ideologies, different methodologies to do something.

00:16:11:13 - 00:16:32:07
Unknown
All of this is happening at the same time in the same spaces where colleagues and partners are able to do amazing collaborative work if they understand each other, if they can see eye to eye on things, if they can have the adult conversations to actually understand that, yes, you see things completely different, too. I it's the way that I do.

00:16:32:09 - 00:16:51:09
Unknown
But your rationale, your ideology is still valid the same way that mine is. So how do we find a way to meet in the middle? I think when especially when it comes to ways of working such a big terminology, it's come off the back of the pandemic. Ways of working is is never really easy, simple in some ways, but it's never easy.

00:16:51:10 - 00:17:13:10
Unknown
I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges that's going to continue on for the next couple of years, if not over a decade, because, you know, people are living longer. Medicine is doing a fantastic job at keeping us working and able to do stuff longer. So naturally that's going to be completely different. Workforces at play that feel and look very, very different to say, 30, 50 years ago.

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:36:12
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Alex. So I'm going to transport you now to a desert island. You've been you've landed there and before you landed there, you were able to choose three books to put into your suitcase. And I'm dying to know what those three leadership books would be. They one of them won't be a surprise to you, Erin Myers.

00:17:36:12 - 00:18:04:13
Unknown
The culture map definitely has to be on there for the simple reason that, you know, we've remote and hybrid working. We have to understand different cultures. We have to understand the influence of different cultures into how people work. And that whole ways of working that I just mentioned really is deeply ingrained into culture right? I think one of the books that a comms lead recommended to me a couple of years ago now, I think every leader should have read it if not at least looked at a summary of it.

00:18:04:13 - 00:18:27:12
Unknown
Is nonviolent communication by by Dr. Rosenberg. That in particular has ticked so many boxes personally for me to be able to understand how to communicate with people, how to be engaging, how to share something that's a challenging conversation to have. It's challenging bit of information for someone to take in in a way that stops them from feeling attacked.

00:18:27:13 - 00:18:57:02
Unknown
Now, I have no control of their feelings. However, I have a big part to play in how they react to what I say. And I think, you know, when I think of Goldman's work in in in both leadership models as well as emotional intelligence, there's so many connection points there. I think as I was introduced to this concept fairly early on in my career when it was at Apple, but it hasn't become it hasn't landed until fairly recently in the last couple of years.

00:18:57:04 - 00:19:22:06
Unknown
But the work by Dr Carol Dweck on mindset and growth mindset and what that means to leaders and how to inspire growth mindset and organisation. I think that there's a lot of insight and then yes, there's there's tons of new research that's out there about, you know, the the impact of having a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. And there's lots of different ideas around neuroplasticity and how that is involved in this whole thing.

00:19:22:07 - 00:19:53:01
Unknown
But I think there's just some fundamentals in that book that really every leader should have in their head, even just managing and leading self. Yeah, there's so much in that book that's just speaking to that. No, I'm with you. Great. Thank you. Three fantastic choices. Thank you, Alex. So we we live in a technology enabled world, and whilst books are great and those audio books, as you already touched on as well, there's lots of other ways that leaders can impart knowledge on themselves or on their people, actually.

00:19:53:05 - 00:20:20:02
Unknown
So really interested in what you think every leader should watch or listen to too. Could be a TED Talk or whatever what you think one of them links to something that you only found out about recently. About me. My, my kung fu and Chinese history right. Um, so, um, my kung fu master mentioned someone to me, and I had no idea who this person was.

00:20:20:03 - 00:20:57:07
Unknown
But when I finally got home from China after spending a couple of months out there practicing Kung Fu Southern Shaolin Temple Monks, there was there was a couple of lessons that I wanted to dig deeper into. In researching this person, I managed to find a TED Talk is Master Shi Huang Yi and he spoke about the five hindrances to self-mastery that probably had the most profound effect on me and actually has helped me to really understand how motivation works a little bit better so I can help others to hopefully be more engaged in my learning experiences.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:25:00
Unknown
Whether that's something that's a resource that I'm handing or something as a physical experience in a space or virtually. Um, there's another TEDTalk, which I think most leaders kind of go to, which is the power of vulnerability by Brené Brown kind of speaks to itself, especially today, where we're so socially aware of the needs of others with mental health, with just individuality, vulnerability has to come into it, right?

00:21:25:00 - 00:21:52:07
Unknown
So again, very hopefully a clear link there. The third one is something that I saw recently on Jay Shetty's podcast. It was Jared Carmichael speaking about how to reshape, reframe, shame, and that for me was probably one of the most powerful things I watched recently because it really got me to understand how Shame is influenced and impacted me growing up.

00:21:52:08 - 00:22:15:12
Unknown
You know, being a black kid from Peckham, a rough area. When I was growing up, I grew up in a council estate to a single parent. Like there's so many different things in that that shame really kind of played a part into it and really kind of influenced a lot of my decision making. And I think that is something that I would recommend to every leader to go through because we all experience shame.

00:22:15:12 - 00:22:35:05
Unknown
It's a human. It's part of the human condition, right? We always are concerned with what other people are watching us seeing and what judgment is being cast on us. But we don't often address what we are shameful of. We don't ever really think we know. Often we know what it is like. Some people are just ashamed of looking like an idiot.

00:22:35:06 - 00:22:52:00
Unknown
And I think, okay, well, for me to be able to play in a classroom where no one really knows each other, but I'm forcing them to do stuff, I need to look like an idiot sometimes. I need to be okay with that. So that shame element for me started to go away and I started to think about it as me having concurrent truths.

00:22:52:01 - 00:23:14:09
Unknown
It is true that I am confident in a learning space, but it's also true that I feel a lot of shame. So being able to figure out the middle ground for me to then be able to deliver a form in that space is something that I really started to dig into from from watching that podcast. Fascinating. I've got a couple of things to watch there.

00:23:14:09 - 00:23:43:01
Unknown
On the Train Journey Home, you got your homework, which is always great. Thanks, Alex. There's some real wisdom in those. I think so. Thank you for sharing. And what about you? So on a personal level, what keeps you motivated and inspired to motivate, inspire others within the field that you're in? There's someone in something and the someone is my mother and me.

00:23:43:02 - 00:24:04:14
Unknown
I'm sure she knows that idolize her. And I do look up to her a lot, but I don't think she realizes just how much of an influence she's had on me and still has on me today, like seeing her give birth to me as a single parent While she was still quite young, she was back at work, back in university.

00:24:05:00 - 00:24:23:08
Unknown
Literally weeks after having me, I was brought up by, you know, there were sayings like, you know, it takes a village to raise a child. Very much. I lived that. So my great grand, my grand and my aunt really, really leaned in heavy quite, quite heavily to be able to raise me and help her in, you know, giving me the life experiences for my formative years.

00:24:23:08 - 00:24:48:06
Unknown
But she straightaway went back to working university to educate herself and get her into the career that would enable her to support me and herself better grow up with me. But we spent a lot of time exploring stuff, so she wanted to understand who I am. She wanted to really invest in me and allow me to go and travel with my grandma, with my aunt, and explore new places, to experience different cultures, to try new foods.

00:24:48:06 - 00:25:08:06
Unknown
Because that's a big thing in our family. My great grandmother's an amazing cook. So, you know, there's all of these different things that she enabled through her hard work, but also the her coming back to her downtime, away from university, away from her work, being able to say, right, I'm absolutely knackered, but I'm going to spend some time with my son, I'm going to take her to museum.

00:25:08:06 - 00:25:27:05
Unknown
He's going to hate the walk there because, you know, he's five years old. He doesn't enjoy walking. He's going to hate walking around and looking at various different things that are of no interest to him. But there's going to be one thing that he will like. And I'm so thankful to her for that, because that has enabled me to to understand what perseverance is.

00:25:27:06 - 00:25:44:14
Unknown
That's enabled me to kind of have a bit more of an open mindset to things to say, Well, generally I don't like these things, but they might be something I'll get from it, so I'll give it a go. Why not? Why? We've got to ladies and have that sort of mindset. I think seeing her now and like she she really pushed me to do things that I didn't like.

00:25:45:00 - 00:26:11:05
Unknown
I hated swimming. Yet that became part of my professional career. I absolutely hated it when I was a kid, whereas now I use it as a meditative practice because all I need to focus on is stretching and breathing while still swimming. And that simplicity really allows me to escape the busy world that is in my mind. And, you know, as a role model, just seeing her perseverance through all of the different challenges that I know she faced, things that she has never told me.

00:26:11:05 - 00:26:36:06
Unknown
I'm sure she still kept on pushing. And even today she's still pushing like she'd see me study and say, you know, you're so different to me. I didn't study in this sort of way. I'm so proud of you for doing that. And I'm thinking, I'm just preparing for an exam that's like it's a no brainer to me. But just that small recognition piece is long lasting because that was nearly a year, nearly ten years ago that she said that to me.

00:26:36:06 - 00:27:17:06
Unknown
And it still is as loud to me today as it was that the thing that really kind of inspires me and motivates me is just humans. I don't like calling people people often I prefer calling them humans because we are such fascinating creatures. We do things that are completely, completely random a lot of the time, and it just fascinates me seeing the good in people and and seeing the good and the emotional state of people brings me to think of them as humans, as sentient beings who have evolved in different ways to be able to have that individuality and be able to celebrate it.

00:27:17:07 - 00:27:43:09
Unknown
If only they gave themselves the chance. We'd be ourselves up so much. And I I'd love there to be so much more celebration of humans and what humans bring to the world, to each other, to a variety of different cycles that they set in. And I think that that's something that inspires me still because there's so much work to do from my perspective to influence and help as many people as possible.

00:27:43:10 - 00:28:17:01
Unknown
I'm your mum. Sounds like an amazing woman. Firstly, that was a really heartwarming and inspiring run through and I'm sure she's very proud of the person that you've become. Yeah, and I love that piece on humans and share your, your, your intrigue and, and interest in the human condition, I guess. Okay. So what one skill, behavior or mindset do you think is going to be imperative for leaders in the next five years with future gazing a bit here?

00:28:17:01 - 00:28:43:01
Unknown
I think you are one. Well, you give me whatever you think or give give me the kind of top, the top three or you know, the top of the pyramid. Okay, you know what? I will give you one. I'll challenge myself to them and asking questions. Okay. Asking questions is probably I mean, it is for me, but it definitely will be for me going forwards.

00:28:43:02 - 00:29:02:14
Unknown
One of the biggest and most powerful tools we have in our toolkit and the reason why I say this, because when I think about alignment of responsibilities, I think of being able to empower someone to do something, being able to give them permission to do something, and also being able to kind of lower the barriers so they can do that something right.

00:29:03:00 - 00:29:27:01
Unknown
And I think about different ways in which we can motivate people to be self serving wherever possible and actually apply the human element to whatever it is they do inside, wherever their secret source is at that to whatever you do. And so you've got your flair, your stamp on it, and asking questions has become one of the the ways that I've noticed in younger generations that communication is is probably best given.

00:29:27:01 - 00:29:58:08
Unknown
So where I think about the different humans that I've had the joy of managing over the years and different managers that I've interacted with, both as leaders as well as as line managers in organizations, I think of the way that they spoke to me, the way that I speak to two other other humans right? If I ask a question, I'm able to understand a little bit more about your thought process, understand a little bit more about your experience in the way that you're doing something in the way behind it.

00:29:58:09 - 00:30:18:00
Unknown
I'm able to understand what you think this. So what is behind it so that that how makes sense now. And I also do get all of that information and I'm able to point you in a direction that you may not have thought about. You've never flirted with what's over there, but now you know it exists and now you're curious.

00:30:18:00 - 00:30:41:12
Unknown
Now you're intrigued. So the have you ever thought of or what if you did or what? What would go wrong if type questions I always go to because I want people to think about what matters to them, what they could actually influence in control, to be able to get the desired outcome that they're seeking, but also how they can apply that human element that I mentioned earlier.

00:30:41:13 - 00:31:21:12
Unknown
And I don't think the directive tell is always the best way to do that. Now, sometimes you have to sometimes you do have to go forwards and actually give a very straightforward directive. But I always prefer to ask where possible is very much a coaching approach. And that's kind of where I come from. But even still even more of those directive type of instruction sets that I, I'd need to give to people, whether I'm ly managing them or whether I'm working, collaborate, whatever it is, even if it's in the classroom or, you know, virtual learning space, the ability to ask questions can be so motivating and so enlightening to humans that it's something that I

00:31:21:12 - 00:31:48:10
Unknown
think is, is you need to be able to ask good questions like facilitating a conversation is far, far more effective in many different situations than me telling and imparting my knowledge from my head to to your head. Being able to facilitate a conversation and allow people to meander around what could go wrong, meander around the different systems that are at play, to be able to help something go right and how to copy and paste that approach to every other problem that's relevant.

00:31:48:12 - 00:32:09:02
Unknown
But that comes through asking questions, not necessarily saying, Oh, just follow these instructions. 1 to 5 of you go. The the the application of that 1 to 5 doesn't ever get iterated unless you're you're motivated to do so. And usually that comes from a question they have for me, how could I do that quicker? How can I do that more efficiently?

00:32:09:04 - 00:32:26:10
Unknown
There are five steps. Do I need the third step? That's where a question comes in for self. So if I can do that as a leader, then point you in the direction of a question that can help you to unlock something new. Then it's almost a given for all leaders to be able to do that. I think. Love it, love it.

00:32:26:10 - 00:32:49:12
Unknown
I've just been writing a few notes. Offshoots to what you've shared the and I guess the there's a couple of things that enable that as well. I think asking questions and just being curious helps you to ask the right questions. If you if you get out of your own way and you present and you're just curious about someone that makes it easier to go there with the questions and read that forward.

00:32:49:12 - 00:33:13:01
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. And the other piece you touched on there towards the back end is that I've heard it references referenced as interrogative self-talk. I think Dan Pink and a few of the podcasts I've been listening to recently talk about, you know, asking yourself those questions as well so you can truly understand yourself. So yeah, I'm with you on the questions that's are so critical.

00:33:13:01 - 00:33:38:01
Unknown
Well, I was delivering a lifeguard course, um, middle of July, and there were so many questions from the young minds in the room and kind of there was one question that really stumped Spain. I was like, Yeah, why do I do that? And I started to think about it, live in front of people waiting for an answer. I could see I could see this one learner getting really quite frustrated that was taking so long.

00:33:38:02 - 00:33:56:00
Unknown
But I had to explain. But you know, I've been doing this for so long that I don't actually have an answer. I'm going to go and find out. But you've asked me something that is really important for me to understand as a first aid professional, and if I can't understand the why behind it, then how can I deliver treatment?

00:33:56:00 - 00:34:13:09
Unknown
How can I diagnose correctly, or at least as close to, you know, something that's useful to a paramedic? I do think it's really important that, you know, we do tap into that. Be able to interrogate yourself is probably more important than being able to ask others questions. But for us to really learn to meet people are naturally curious.

00:34:13:10 - 00:34:32:09
Unknown
We we always wonder what is going on in someone else's head. At the very least, we always wonder what's going on over there. There's people crowded over there. What was what was what they watching, what they doing. So there's always a question somewhere. But I don't think a lot of people really harness active questioning and active listening on the back of that.

00:34:32:09 - 00:35:00:09
Unknown
Yeah, with curiosity. Yeah, absolutely. No. Great, great. Want to add into the toolkit there and definitely one that fuels that openness, that trust, that understanding, you know, really connecting and that helps so many other things happen, doesn't it? So okay, so we're at the point where we've got the closing question, which is a question that has been posed by one of our previous guests, which you don't know what is coming, Alex.

00:35:00:09 - 00:35:27:09
Unknown
But anyway, I'm sure you will. You'll have a great answer for it. So your question is this What do you suggest we do to engage with and motivate younger generations? Who will shape the future? I'm going to sound like a broken record with part of this answer for sure, because immediately I thought ask questions, immediate thought play actually be silly.

00:35:27:10 - 00:36:12:09
Unknown
Actually understand those motivations in a way that allows you to give some sharable experiences and enables you to kind of connect dots that you probably never connected before. So being able to ask yourself questions as well as asking them questions and being being open to actually laugh at yourself, being open to being vulnerable, and to make mistakes in front of other people and actually open yourself up to being judged by the people letting go of a lot of that shame that says assigned to the judgments that you think are going to be the worst things ever, where most times people are actually going, you know, I've never seen it that way in their own heads.

00:36:12:12 - 00:36:29:09
Unknown
Most people tend to kind of go, That's interesting. I've never thought of it that way. And they go off in their own little world for a bit, and then they come back in the room and they're with you again. Being able to have that humility, being able to actually act of curiosity in that sort of way, to be able to understand exactly where someone else is coming from.

00:36:29:10 - 00:36:46:05
Unknown
But one of the most important things to be able to engage in other human. So in my mind, I think, well, does it matter what age group they're from? It doesn't matter what generation they've been assigned. It's very much about, well, how interested are you in that human and how can you demonstrate that in a way that they will understand.

00:36:46:06 - 00:37:08:03
Unknown
So if they demonstrate play and inspiration and and, you know, their imagination comes through in one specific activity, engage with them in that. Find ways in which you can bring that into what you're doing with them. It might be just telling a joke, a terrible joke, just to break the ice a little bit and actually talk about what they found funny in that joke.

00:37:08:03 - 00:37:29:09
Unknown
And it's you know, it's dissecting a joke potentially. But there is still something in that because you're communicating your understanding a little bit closer what makes them them and why they want to show up, what makes them show up and, you know, simple things like asking questions. I always think people are motivated by completely different things at different points in their lives.

00:37:29:10 - 00:37:50:00
Unknown
It's perfectly fine as a leader to ask someone what motivates you. It's okay if it's money, because I recognize you thinking about settling down. You're thinking about buying that car. You're thinking about going to university, you're thinking all these expensive things. It's fine for that to happen and truly making it safe enough for them to be able to share.

00:37:50:00 - 00:38:11:00
Unknown
And what is a little bit vulnerable, What they feel. A little bit vulnerable. Mm hmm. Thank you, Alex. Thank you so much. As always. Whenever I speak to you, there's so much richness and, you know, lots of things that come out that I didn't know about you as well. So. So I really appreciate your your insights today. Thank you so much for being a guest on the pod.

00:38:11:00 - 00:38:37:04
Unknown
And good luck in the new role as well, which I know is emerging fast. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. We hope you took some insight or inspiration from the conversation. If you did, please subscribe or like Button and us not because we want to get those responses. There's just so we know that you're finding the content worthwhile and we can keep delivering more and more conversations.

00:38:37:06 - 00:39:04:05
Unknown
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