Episode #10: So Much to Learn

In this episode LaKesha and Linda talk with Sara White, Youth Services Consultant at the Washington State Library, about five years of learning about building equitable practices.  Topics include the importance of reflection, working in the middle ground, and brave space.  

Items mentioned in the podcast:

• From Safe Spaces to Brave Spaces
• Nancy Levin on the Middle Ground
• LaKesha Kimbrough on the Middle Ground
• A Bit of Optimism podcast on Shades of Grey

Building Equity-Based Summers is funded in part through the Institute of Museum and Library Services..

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Hi everybody. I'm Linda Braun and I'm one of the people working on the Building Equity-Based Summers Project, both nationally through our IMLS funding and in California, and I'm here with my colleague, Lakeisha Kimbrough. Lakeisha, introduce yourself.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Hi everyone. I'm Lakeisha Kimbrough and I have the immense honor of working alongside Linda and other amazing folks supporting the BEPS work, and we are here today with one of our amazing state librarian folks from Washington Sarah. Sarah, who are you?

Speaker 3: 0:50

Hello everybody. My name is Sarah White and I am the Youth Services Consultant at the Washington State Library.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Thank you. So today in this episode, we thought BEBS is actually just about five years old in California. I know it's amazing BEBS is five years old in California. In our national work it's. We're about to enter our third year and actually went right. We're about to enter our third year and we thought there's a lot we've learned, like mind-blowing explosion things we've learned, and we wanted to talk a little bit this time about what we've learned about equity, libraries, summer, all of those kinds of things, and so that's our conversation for today and we've been talking a little bit about what are some of the things that we've all learned. And, Sarah, I wanted to ask you, because this has come up a few times is this idea of in order to do equity work and even reimagine libraries takes time, it takes reflection and I think we've learned a lot about how library staff struggle with that? Can you talk a little bit about?

Speaker 3: 2:09

that for sure. It's funny because when you ask me to think about what I've learned, I don't. It's not that I've learned this because I've always like known it to be true before. I was a youth services consultant at the State level. I was in a public library for 11 years doing youth services and like running summer reading programs, so I've always known this to be true. But library staff, especially frontline library staff, are just not inherently given time in their jobs for reflection and evaluation and conversation and thought. There's a lot of. I don't know if it's pressure, it's probably pressure, pressure from outside and from within to constantly be doing something that has a product or an end goal or something that you can count, and it's just. There's just not a lot of time built into your day-to-day to just sit and think at all and I, being in this position, have learned how valuable it is to be able to do that, to be able to sit and think, and also giving having the opportunity to give people the time to do that has been really valuable in my position.

Speaker 1: 3:24

Can you talk a little bit about how you've given people the time to do that and maybe how that's helped with BEBS, even in the equity summer stuff?

Speaker 3: 3:33

So, yeah, I think that's. In my opinion, what is so valuable about building equity-based summers and other projects like this is that the thought time isn't just built in, it's inherent to the work. Like the two one to two hours that we spend together is all thought time, and the homework that people have in between is all thought and conversation. It's not go do a program and come back and report how it went. It's go have a conversation, go think and then come back and report how it went. It's go have a conversation, go think and then come back, um, and by signing on to this project they're basically committing to do that. Right, like it gives you an organized, structured way to say this is my work.

Speaker 3: 4:19

Like I'm signing on to this imls project and the project requires me to have this time to sit and think and work. And I feel like I've tried to do that in most training. Trainings I've done is to not just give people a task, but to give people the task of thought. But it's also like being able to do that has made me think about how little time I had to do that when I was actually frontline in a library. I just didn't feel like I had that luxury and I feel like that luxury. It shouldn't be a luxury. It's absurd that I'm calling it a luxury, because I feel like it's inherent to our work.

Speaker 2: 5:01

A little earlier when you said it seems like if it's not connected to an end product or numbers or you know something that we can see is produced right away, then perhaps it's not seen as valuable to build in that time and allow that time for reflection. Unpacking how do we iterate? Because I feel like there's this thing of continuous improvement. We can't continuously improve and iterate if we don't slow down enough right to really explore and learn and grow from what happened, what we did, how this went, and do that individually and in community and I mean community as a library staff, a team with community members who participated in any of the things that we did, maybe sponsored or co-sponsored. And so it makes me really curious and wonder about how we might begin to convey it actually does result in an end product, right, it actually does produce something when we are given time to reflect and to explore and to think about what did we learn from this and how might we use that learning going forward. So just interesting, I'm just sitting here thinking about that and so how?

Speaker 1: 6:39

I mean, do either of you have thoughts about how we libraries change? Is it a mindset? What is it? And like, how do we? Because, bebs, one of the things we do is we're constantly reflecting, right, it's like we're always thinking about what's happening. Why is it happening, how's it happening? Iterating, and so it's our way of life in building equity-based summers, and so it's something that people who are in states and state library agencies come in ready to do, right, like they just know it and they have the ability to take the time because of their position. So how do we help libraries to make that change?

Speaker 2: 7:32

and it does make me come back to some of the things that we've talked about and explored and some of our wonderings um around organizational culture and structure. Right, like, how do we talk about for lack of a better term the return on investment for building in reflection when we think about the way systems are designed and the way that they kind of carry out? We're not taught to value reflection. We're not taught to value these things. We're taught to go, go, go, perfect, perfect, perfect, do, do, do.

Speaker 2: 8:19

And there's a certain thing that happens when I'm able to reflect, then I get in touch with myself a little more, I understand myself. I'm able to reflect, then I get in touch with myself a little more. I understand myself, I'm able to understand others a little more. It helps to deepen connection and relationship, and that's the very thing that systems of oppression don't want to happen, right, and so it's this weird kind of way that that kind of cycles and works together, and it it does make me wonder if there's a way to work with branch managers or other folks who are leading teams to say, hey, when we meet, we're going to start every meeting with five minutes of reflection time, or something like how does it get built in into smaller teams. And then how does that practice begin to grow, is it? I don't know? I'm just like what is that thing, linda? How do we start to?

Speaker 3: 9:18

that makes me. That makes me think, like you should, about how, in some ways, the BEBS process is not like we are working with working librarians right and working administrators, library workers for management and leadership positions, and like what? So hard to learn it after you've already been in it and then to have to like shift how you've been doing it. Um, it's easier to start from a place of understanding the value of reflection and time and professional development and learning, and I don't know that people are starting from that place yeah, we really are so also aren't taught how to reflect like.

Speaker 2: 10:25

What does it even mean to think on on those things? And often for many people, um, reflection is equated with something negative. And so then, um, and it's one of the reasons why in Bev's sessions, sarah and Linda and others, you all have heard me say non-weaponized reflection, right and the shame, because oftentimes when our brain connects reflection to something that is hurtful, then it wants to protect us from it and then we don't, we tend to to disengage with it or only do surface level reflection. Um, so, thinking about what does meaningful, um, non-shame inducing reflection look like and feel like and sound like, um, and how it can benefit. Okay, yes, I'm planning the story time and this is the end. This is the end goal, or this is what I want this to look like.

Speaker 2: 11:37

If I put in the intentional planning to get there, I'm more likely to see it turn out the way I was hoping. So, pre-planning, thinking with some of those thoughts in mind, and what are some of the questions I asked to pre-plan and I wonder if that's something too I don't know how to pre-plan Like, what are the questions I should be asking? To whom should I be asking these questions, and does that? How much of the pre-planning asks us to partner with other folks in our library, outside of our library? How much power sharing is it asking us to do, and is that also part of the challenge?

Speaker 3: 12:20

It makes me think about how, in many ways the white supremacy culture we are told that if you don't do it right the first time, you failed. So it's really. You can get really defensive when, instead of feeling open to change and evaluation and restructuring and trying a different thing, you just feel defeated and like you failed, if you don't just magically do it right the first time.

Speaker 2: 13:06

And Sarah, what do we mean by did it right? Right, Like? There's this whole thing around and I hear that so, yes, I didn't do it right or it didn't turn out right the first time. Who defined and described and made up what that was? Because maybe actually we did and it just didn't look or sound the way we thought it would. We actually did accomplish what we were hoping to accomplish, or maybe we accomplished something totally different and we're missing the win and the success in that, because we're judging it against what we were told was right or what we told was the success.

Speaker 1: 13:49

Right. Here's another thing we've all learned, I think and this Lakeisha taught us this when we first started BEBS and that's about the middle ground. So, sarah, how has the middle ground been something you've learned and thought about as a part of this BEBS process?

Speaker 3: 14:06

So the middle ground is needing to know you're always working towards something and you're never going to be all the way there, and that every little step you take is another step towards that place, and that there's never going to be.

Speaker 3: 14:32

So I feel like there's this I'm trying to think of the right word there's this feeling that we want to be always perfect, right Like. We want to be the most equitable, the most social justice oriented library people and I think as state reps we really feel that way because we want to be sort of setting an example in our state, right, we want to be showing people what we want them to be working towards. But I think I've been thinking about a lot lately is that I also need to exist in that middle ground, because taking a really strong stance and making a giant, overwhelming rapid change is not the best again, not the best way to help other people along. So I've been making lots of little changes and trying new things every year. Trying new things every year. For example, in our summer end of summer evaluation survey, I will do things like add a question or two that weren't there last year, with the hopes that it'll help people realize well, if the state thinks this is important, maybe I should think it's important. So just little shifts that could potentially change people's minds.

Speaker 3: 15:50

Also, like I feel like one of the things that's kind of a big jump is participating in BEBS itself right, like committing to come to all these workshops and be really committed. But I can have conversations through a BEBS lens with people all the time, even if they aren't participating in building equity-based summers. I can gently ask them like oh, why are you doing prizes? And just kind of plant those little seeds in people's brains in a way that isn't going to cause monumental immediate change but that will hopefully help people think and ask themselves questions. Like gently pushing back on people when they say things like it's going really well, we have huge numbers. I'll be like, oh, interesting. Like what about? That means it's going well or is? Do you have other ways that you measure what's going well?

Speaker 2: 16:46

Just to kind of nudge people in directions to think more intensely about what they're saying and helping them pause and reflect, even if it's just a few seconds of pause in that moment or even if you have to come back to it, right, so that that is helping support that. Um, and you know, the middle ground, the idea of that middle ground, really, um, I think Nancy Levin has a quote of honor the space between no longer and not yet. And that is where I'm like that's where the middle is, it's I'm no longer where I used to be, we're no longer where we used to be. We're not quite yet.

Speaker 2: 17:29

None of us, society in general, is not yet at a state of liberation and equity. So we're all in this middle ground of working towards that. We may not be where we used to be, hopefully in some spaces where we're getting closer, but we're not yet there. And so how do we hold what it means to be in the middle ground and that that may not always be comfortable and there's a lot of ambiguity in that space. So, yeah, just kind of like what makes it challenging to be in that space? And I think challenging to be in that space and I think, sarah, you kind of mentioned it earlier it I I'm really curious and I do believe a lot of that comes in the white supremacy culture of, you know, moving with urgency and you need to have things now and there's one right way to get things done, and there is.

Speaker 3: 18:30

We can be perfect and we cannot right Like that's just, and we hold ourselves and other people to these impossible standards of perfection?

Speaker 3: 18:44

Yeah, I just think. I also think, as you're talking, lakeisha, I don't. Is there ever a time when we won't be in a middle ground of some? Like we can always be working towards the ideal utopia, right, but like the reality of our situation is that we are always going to be in some middle ground and I feel like that's kind of freeing and makes me feel less anxious about it is that this is just where we live and as long as you're aware of it and can think about it and are working towards something, you're doing the right thing.

Speaker 2: 19:18

Yeah, and I think that's something that I really do believe, sarah. I do believe that along the way, we can set goals and we can have these milestones. We reach milestones, we reach goals, you know, especially if we're thinking like the big aspiration is this, what are the goals that we'll take to get there? So in the middle ground we may be, really, we may be accomplishing things and reaching some goals and getting to some milestones. We're not yet there, right Like, we're not yet there, and hopefully we're continuing to learn and grow and iterate to get us closer. But until we have, until we are actually living in a society where systems of oppression do not exist, we're not there yet.

Speaker 2: 20:10

We asked folks who have participated in BEBS to share with us some of the learnings and one of the things that came up, many things came up that I thought were really great. One of them that was shared with us was Brave Space, and I'm wondering Linda or Sarah, if you all want to share about brave space, linda, if you want to talk about how brave space got introduced into the BEBS work and um, but I I thought that was interesting in terms of thinking about safe space versus brave space, um, and and now thinking about brave space coupled with um spaces with grace, for example. So and I do think that has been a big learning for For Bev's and taking that that concept, broader in this work and it's interesting to Lakeisha.

Speaker 1: 21:06

I will talk about brave space in a second. It's interesting to how it shows up in different ways. Right, like brave space within a library or community, brave space in terms of working with library staff and helping them to build equity practices right. And so there's different ways the brave space shows up. And this whole idea of brave space I think lakisha was the intersection of two different projects and um, thinking about we safe space for me has never seemed like the right term, because I know that we cannot literally create a safe space. It's just impossible.

Speaker 1: 21:49

And I think when I talk to library staff about this idea of safe space is really what they're talking about is brave space. They're talking about anyone in the community feeling like they're in a place where they can be authentic, right, and that makes them feel safe. And so we and there's an article which I will include in the links in the show notes is there's an article about brave space and what that means and why, and even in within the context of equity, brave is more equity-centered than safe, and so we've started bringing this into almost everything we do in BEBS and so when we're working with Sarah and other state library staff. We talk about creating brave spaces for training and learning sessions. We talk about framing brave space in libraries as opposed to safe space, and it's become really powerful because it's freeing in some ways. Right Like to think about how to help people be brave and how to be brave yourself in equity work. Sarah, what do you think about the ideas of brave space within your work?

Speaker 3: 23:00

Yeah, I don't think I would even use the word safe space in any circumstance.

Speaker 3: 23:04

I've heard safer space, which I think is interesting, at least it's like an ideal and a goal is to create a safer space.

Speaker 3: 23:11

But I think it's like an ideal and a goal is to create a safer space, but I think it's tricky because the idea of behind a brave space is ideal, right, but I would love to think more about whether that's actually what I'm able to do, because I think it depends on who's in the room, and I think some people might feel brave when others don't.

Speaker 3: 23:33

So I just wonder how much it's happening in practice. I do wish people would be braver in my spaces, because I do feel like there could be more argument, not in the like negative word argument that we're used to using, where like an argument is the worst and a conflict is the worst possible thing that could happen to you, but where it's like a dialogue between people trying to come to an understanding, where maybe you don't necessarily fully agree, and I feel like that doesn't happen as much in my spaces as possible. So like I feel like I'm still in the middle ground on brave space, I feel like I'm trying, but I don't know that it's truly happening in my trainings, yeah, or my work. They're not trainings. My workspaces, whatever you want to call them is.

Speaker 1: 24:22

I think the biggest challenge is to have a truly, I think, authentic, brave space. You need to have trust and relationships because otherwise people aren't going to be able to be relationships, otherwise people aren't going to be able to be vulnerable and people aren't going to be able to disagree with civility or challenge themselves. So I think that's a huge and I always not always, but in my past decade to two of of what I've been working on is that I've known relationships are important, but this concept, those two are so intersectional. Right, you can't have a brave space if you don't have relationships. Is that true? Do you both think that?

Speaker 2: 24:59

I. I think that the more, the deeper the relationship, the stronger, the more meaningful the connections, because sometimes we're in spaces and we aren't with each other long enough to create deep relationship. We are with each other long enough to create, have meaningful connection and deep connection that can lead to those meaningful relationships, because connection and relationship aren't the same. So I think that having those, those meaningful connections, and growing those really authentic and powerful relationships does allow us to have a what Sarah alluded to earlier, that braver space right, and to be able to lean into that a little more willingly and openly. And I think you know something, linda, that you shared, and that this is about relationship equity, equity, journey, equity, work requires relationship, authentic relationship, nourishing relationship with ourselves and with others. Otherwise, we're never going to get to equitable systems and equitable society if we can't and don't have a meaningful relationship and powerful connection.

Speaker 3: 26:24

I think you need those relationships in your group, your BEVS group. Whatever that looks like For me, it was, like you know, three or four libraries all together. But I think even more important is that libraries need to understand that staff need to have relationships, meaningful connections and relationships with each other, and they need to be given time for that, just like they need to be given time for thought and reflection, because you're going to do more meaningful, exciting, thoughtful work if the people you're working with are on the same page as you and willing to push back at you and have high standards and helping each other get reach those standards.

Speaker 2: 27:02

Right, like if I I'm thinking when I was working in classrooms or working very directly with young people, and this is even for adults in my space is, if there's an expectation, if you're not there yet, if I'm not there yet, you can scaffold and work with me to get there, and likewise right. And so I think, if we have those clearly communicated expectations and and high standards, it's how are we holding each other to reach those, um, and not be in this space of?

Speaker 1: 27:44

well, it's there, figure it out right I think that's the other thing that we've learned and that I am so grateful for in this work is, like we all if I didn't have all of you and all the other state BEPSers, like we're all figuring this out together, right, so we have outcomes, we have expectations. That's the other thing. I mean all of this, what you were just saying. This is not something you can do on your own Building equity-based summers. You have to do it with colleagues, you have to do it with community, and it's so powerful to have this group of people that you have relationships with to help you move to wherever you're moving with. It's incredible to me.

Speaker 3: 28:25

And I think having high standards for colleagues is a sign of respect because it means you believe that they can reach those right. That I mean when I think about wanting to have high standards for folks who participate in trainings. It's exciting to me. Like that we could all reach a high level of excellence at our jobs, um and serving our communities sar.

Speaker 1: 28:50

that just made me think is that how we work also to change culture, right? So if you start to think about what your high expectations are, then how are you going to get there right?

Speaker 3: 29:02

And maybe that's I don't know, I can't articulate this yeah, and it's high expectations with compassion, right, and not like, because I think it's possible to have high expectations for people in a way that causes them to not want to reach those standards, and that there's a way of doing it that makes you excited to get there with people, and I don't know how to. I'm sure there's like management books about this that I haven't read, but I feel like it's not just about having high staters, but like how you communicate them and work with people to achieve them in a compassionate and like emotionally intelligent way.

Speaker 2: 29:42

That makes me wonder, linda and Sarah, if we think about who are we accountable to in this work. How are we being accountable to the out or to? How are we accountable to in this work, how are we being accountable to the out or how are we holding ourselves accountable for getting towards equity, getting closer to equity, coupled with, kind of those high standards? How are we holding that? And then, what are the responsibilities that we need to take to get to those spaces? And how are we doing that?

Speaker 2: 30:13

With grace, care, compassion, and I know accountability is a is an icky word for some people because it's often been punitive, but high standards has also come across as like punitive because it hasn't been often not done with the care that, sarah, you were just talking about, right, um? So I think also, how do we, how do we begin to reframe some of those things so that those types of conversations can happen amongst and with staff and in community, um, in ways that then allow us to actually lean into bravery, lean into allowing reflection, lean into embracing middle ground, right, like all of these things.

Speaker 1: 31:02

So any last thoughts about what I don't want to say lessons learned. It's what we've learned in our BEPS work over the past several years, Sarah.

Speaker 3: 31:15

I think this, combined with a few of the other IMLS projects I've done, have just cemented that this is the kind of work I want to be doing. This kind of big, thoughtful, conversational, relationship-focused work is what feels the most meaningful and impactful to me and to folks in my state, and I feel like people seem to appreciate it too. So I just want to keep doing more projects like this one, where it's not me going and talking at people for an hour and having them check a box that they took a training, but that it's interactive and thoughtful, and a cohort of other colleagues going through the same process at the same time. It just every time I do a project like this it's immense.

Speaker 1: 32:07

That's how I want to be spending my time and the thing I'm thinking about now, which goes back to that reflection, is like how unexpected some of this learning is right. Like Lakeisha, you and I started doing this work together five years ago and we are constantly it's constant, really is constant learning about what it looks like and what we're trying to achieve and how we can help people, and it's an amazing experience and I don't think I, sarah, when you were talking about these, are the kinds of things you want to work on. It's like I don't think I've ever experienced anything quite like what we're doing here in its challenges and opportunities, and I'm so appreciative and grateful to be able to do that with you both. So thank you everyone for joining us in this podcast and listening to this podcast episode, and thank you, lakeisha and Sarah thank you Linda.

Speaker 2: 33:07

Thank you Sarah. Thank you Linda. Thank you Sarah.