Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast

Episode #8: Reimagining Libraries: Acting as a Public Servant to Foster Community Connection

• BEBS • Season 1 • Episode 8

Share episode

In this episode we talk with Beth Yoke, Executive Director of the Workforce Council of Southwest Ohio about what it means to be a public servant, why library staff need to move from a library servant mindset to a public servant mindset, and how the concept of vocational awe can hinder that change in mindset.

Materials related to this podcast:


Building Equity-Based Summers is funded in part through the Institute of Museum and Library Services..

Linda Braun:

Hi everybody, linda Braun here and welcome to the BEBS podcast. Really happy to have you here today or whenever. I am one of the organizers, facilitators, whatever with BEBS, and I'm here with my colleague, lakeisha Kimbrough. Lakeisha introduce yourself.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Hi everyone. Thank you, linda. So great to be with you all again for another amazing episode. I'm Lakeisha Kimbrough, linda's counterpart in this work and also just helping to ask us to think about how we're centering equity and healing in our work. And we have the amazing, amazing Beth Yoke with us today. Beth, who are you?

Beth Yoke:

That's an existential question. I don't know if I can answer today, lakeisha, but thank you for having me. Lakeisha and Linda. I am Beth Yoke. I am currently the executive director of the Workforce Council of Southwest Ohio, but I have worked in libraries previously to that.

Linda Braun:

Thanks Beth to that. Thanks Beth. And so we're going to be talking about public servant mindset, vocational awe, equity and lots of other things.

Beth Yoke:

So let's go, please define how you define public servant. It's about being a public servant is about bringing the library resources to bear to serve the community right. So it's about forming those relationships and partnerships and to together collectively move forward on solving community issues and challenges or taking advantage of opportunities out in the community. So it's that, it's that, it's that community focus, it's the people part of the job. It's not I don't know if people get hung up on the servant word or what it is that, but you know it's common language is civil servant, public servant. You know that's not, that's not new. Those concepts are new and we're not talking about you know, somebody who's going to scrub your floors and do your laundry. It's about you know, being in it to drive the community forward and recognizing that it's a collective effort.

Beth Yoke:

Again, like it's about and I think that's when we talk about bringing the library resources to bear in that kind of a community space is that's where the stuff comes in. It's once you have those relationships, once you've identified something that you want to work on in the community, then that's where the stuff can come into play, whether that's a meeting space that you provide, whether that's a personal expertise of somebody on staff, whether it's the actual books or computers or whatever, but the public servant, you know, I think. I just think public libraries are kind of uniquely positioned because they're, you know, if you're outwardly focused, you're seeing all kinds of things happening in the community and then you can kind of pull those threads together and help people connect with one another to address opportunities and challenges with one another to address opportunities and challenges.

Linda Braun:

I remember when you started talking about the public servant, but like when you started thinking about it as something library staff needed to think about, and why it resonated with you.

Beth Yoke:

Oh, that's a good question. You're welcome. I think it's always just been kind of floating around in the ether, from when I was working at ALA and then working in a library is there's always this, I don't know there's they're in discussions, and even where budget money goes and more staff goes, there's this talk about serving the community, but then when the rubber hits the road, really it's all about the stuff and the books and whether the stuff I mean the stuff could be 3D printers or laser printers or whatever. It doesn't have to just be books, but it's more. It was like the lip service to serving the community was the reality. It was just lip service. And then where people spent their time and energy and money and expertise was over on the stuff side. You know, I think when I was at in the public library we did a rebrand for the public library, spent like a whole year working with a PR and marketing team, had really tried to be thoughtful and intentional about how we want to present ourselves to the community what role do we serve in the community and we tried to keep staff informed along the way, had some meetings to share like this is our thinking, this is where we are, and there did seem to be a groundswell of support around this idea of you know I hadn't articulated it as public servant then but this service ethos to the community. We want to be community focused, embedded in the community, community, community, community.

Beth Yoke:

And then we presented the final brand vision at the end of this whole year of work to the senior leadership team and walk through it all. And we got to the very end and the marketing manager said does this make sense to everybody? Do you understand? Can you talk about it with your teams? Like, how would you present it to your teams? And one of the senior leaders just said, yes, our brand is books.

Beth Yoke:

And I almost like my head exploded because nothing in the slide deck, nothing that we discussed this whole year of work, ever indicated our brand was books, like nothing. And then just to be a part of it for a whole year and then at the end of it, say our brand is books, I just it was almost too much for me to bear. It's just it was like, is it like willful ignorance? Like I just wasn't sure what was going on, that there was this persistent disconnect where we talk about community but we actually default to just hugging our books and sitting around in our buildings. So that's. That was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back, I guess, and got me really thinking more about it. And then that's where the library servant versus public servant thing kind of gelled in my head, I guess.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Beth, I'm really curious because just first off, thank you, I guess, beth. I'm really curious because just first off, thank you for that. I'm like that is rich and painted such a clear visual picture I almost could literally see someone say exactly what you just said and like see them proudly expressing that right.

Beth Yoke:

Yes, they were very excited and proud.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

I like have a clear visual of someone doing that. And, as you were talking, I was starting to wonder how much of this might be rooted in a sense of comfort and awareness, like I'm aware what the library does, I'm comfortable with what we do To embrace public. Being a public servant means a few things right, stepping outside our comfort zones, really hearing from community, and maybe they tell us we're not getting it right and that means, oh, did I fail? I'm not good at this, but I'm the expert, right, like all of these things. And so I'm curious from your perspective and, linda, from your perspective as well, how much of that resistance might be a strong word, but how much of that is potentially rooted in, like this, uh, right to comfort or, um, scared to get it wrong, kind of thing. Yeah, I think I'm curious about power, right, like, because of being a live, uh, public servant means sharing power, and that can be scary too.

Beth Yoke:

So just curious yeah, I think you hit on something interesting, lakeisha, and I think it goes back to traditional graduate schools of library and information science. Enough in the curriculum that's community-centered and public servant-focused, focused. You know, my personal experience in graduate school for library and information science is, you know people would literally say you know, I just want to be in a room for books and read all day, and the professors would not challenge that, they would not suggest that they go work for Barnes and Noble. They would, and that's who you know. You were surrounded by those folks. I remember distinctly remember someone else saying so at the time.

Beth Yoke:

Microsoft was doing a thing with public libraries where they were installing computers and providing internet access, that kind of thing. So there was somebody in there trying to get people to help with that effort in my class and the person next to me said I'm going to find a library to work in that doesn't have any of this technology and it's just like why but you know so to me like the comfort zone is a piece of the bigger problem of the wrong people are ending up in this profession. Um, they really need to be, you know, have a passion for serving other people, for making a difference in the community together, not with some kind of white savior complex of what like to your power thing and then being extroverted. Right, you know like you can't hide away in a room with books and no computers in 2024 and get a paycheck in my opinion.

Beth Yoke:

That's just you're not doing anybody any good to. The comfort zone which was, you know, kind of enabled in graduate school is maybe what I'm getting at, because you know the the community engagement piece, the really connecting with community, is messy. It is difficult. We know we have a diversity problem in the profession, so a bunch of white women trying to serve people of color. You know to your point, lakeisha, you have to admit that you might make mistakes, that somebody that these community members might actually, you know, know better than you what their needs are, you have to be able to be humble enough and open enough to accept that. I don't know, and then you know that does that might bruise your ego to be wrong or make a mistake, but you know that's life.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Right, yeah, and that's how we learn and grow Right. And as you were talking, I was thinking it is messy and it's it takes time because, it means building authentic relationship, and that also means we're going to mess up and make mistakes, and what's the system for repair and how do we really stay in this together?

Beth Yoke:

And relationship doesn't happen overnight, so yeah, and that might also support your comfort zone idea and that you know a lot of do-gooders do come to the library profession. But I think they want to, they want to see it, they want that instant gratification. I helped a person today to your point like these authentic relationships, the trust building, the repairing harm that's been done. You have to be in it for the long game and recognize you know there could be a two steps forward, one step back situation or just train yourself to celebrate the small wins, right.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

And see where non-traditional wins maybe are like what we're not taught to see as wins.

Linda Braun:

Beth, I'm curious too about the idea in Lakeisha, about because you mentioned schools of library and information science iSchools what about how the systems of a library itself support that right? So I've had people say to me well, you know, library directors tell me this is what they're looking for, so this is what we teach, right. And so I always feel like there's this I don't know what you call it. It's like a cycle. So library schools don't change, so the people libraries are getting are traditional, perhaps, and then libraries don't change because they don't have people who can do the new stuff, build the relationships, all of that. So I don't know like how that? That seems like a very messy ball of stuff ball of stuff.

Beth Yoke:

Yeah, that is. It's almost like you're describing a chicken and egg situation.

Linda Braun:

Yeah, exactly, yeah, system changes Go ahead.

Beth Yoke:

I think it goes back to getting the right people in the profession. You know somebody who runs a library. You know they don't need. They need more than one management class in graduate school. They need, you know, a lot of training and experiences that they're not necessarily getting. You're running it could be, depending on where you are. You're running a government agency. You're running essentially a not-for-profit. It's this whole set of skills that you need that you either learn on the job or maybe you never learn.

Beth Yoke:

So we're really not setting those library directors up for success by and large, and that leads to the inability to be able to make these changes. But you know you can't underscore the lack of resources and funding. Like the libraries have been starved forever, and you know, if you want to talk about vocational awe, you know the one thing I might buy into about that is the piece of you know. Oh, you know we're just going to make do with what we were going to pinch the penny as hard as we can, you know, and work extra hours and blah, blah, blah.

Beth Yoke:

No, I mean there is a funding issue and I think right now, you know, our national organization is patting themselves on the back for getting some level funding of federal money. But you know, all of us know, inflation is a real thing and it has been for the past four years. So level funding is really a funding cut. So we have to stand up and advocate for adequate amount of money to do the work we need to do. So I think because we're so under-resourced, that also feeds this inability to change and transform. Because you're just trying to, you know, unclog the toilet in your tiny public library in rural Iowa or whatever. You don't have time to do the strategic thinking and make these significant changes.

Linda Braun:

Doesn't that like mean that you need to talk to other people in the community, right, so you can like? It's the collective impact targeted universalism thing, right, like you can't do it alone. So libraries that's the other vocational law part, non-public servant part is library staff think they have to do it all themselves, right, and not work with other people.

Beth Yoke:

Yeah, that has always kind of confounded me is, you know, is why wouldn't you want to collaborate and partner? It builds your capacity, it expands your knowledge and experiences, and then you know if you're just going to talk about dollars, it expands your access to dollars. There's billions of dollars in public education. There's billions of dollars coming out of the Department of Labor and all these other places. But if you're just focused on you know when's the next whatever Harry Potter coming out, then you're not building those authentic community relationships. You're missing out not just on the ability to to better serve the community, but on funding that will really kind of be able to take you to the next level.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

I was wondering well, if we were freedom dreaming in this session, right, if we were freedom dreaming in this session, right, if we were freedom dreaming, what would it look like, um, what would it sound like, right for um folks in the library field to kind of be able to embrace this idea that, yes, you have gone to school, you've worked in this field, you do have this expertise and you still are a connector or a bridge builder or whatever that term is that feels right for you, um, and and that that does mean sharing power and honoring other ways of knowing, other ways of being and other ways of um being an expert.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Because it might not be that some of the folks with the expert knowledge, um, have letters behind their name, right, and so, if we're freedom dreaming this, these ideas and these notions, yeah, what does it look like? What does it sound like to really embrace being a public servant, to embrace being a public servant, and what might it take to release, like when we lean into this idea or this notion of vocational awe, if we pause and and kind of explore that and ask ourselves like, I wonder, I wonder why I'm leaning into that, I'm curious what it does for me. Does it do anything for me Right and like, well, how, how can I release that? What is there something in that embracement of vocational awe that feels like it actually fills us up or makes us feel needed or important? And then what's the underlying reason that we're actually having those feelings?

LaKesha Kimbrough:

and what if releasing vocational awe opened us up to actually being nourished and nurtured in more healthy ways that allow us to connect to each other and community in some powerful ways? So I just went off on a wild, weird tangent, but that's what I was thinking.

Linda Braun:

Well, and Lakeisha, as you said, that I think if we released vocational law, it would open up the ability to be a public servant. I hadn't put them together until we had these conversations recently and I think I do think that that's actually what is one of the things that is holding us back, along with you know, systems and libraries and library schools, this sense of we're special. Maybe that's not the right phrase, but it's like, and when you let that go and you're not special and you're not the only one who can do something, because, as you think about what it would look like, I sort of don't know what it would look like at Beth. I don't know because I I see like the there's possibility and it would look different everywhere maybe it would look like it looks different everywhere.

Beth Yoke:

Beth, that's true although I do like the visual of the hive, like Lakeisha was saying what would it look like, what would it sound like? And I'm thinking of like the visual of the hive, like Lakeisha was saying what would it look like, what would it sound like? And I'm thinking of like the buzzy bees right, like everybody's kind of busy doing their thing, but also interconnected in the same space. So I like the hive as a visual kind of sort of Plus, you get honey too, I mean.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Well, which right. And you have the support right.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

It's like like amazing support system that's we're all working for this collective, common goal. We have our own roles in that to ensure that that happens. And you know, I don't want listeners to think or have a feeling of but this is how I feel and this is what I'm experiencing that's being invalidated, right, Like we get to definitely have our feelings about that, express them, be all in that and they're real and they're valid. So I don't want to take that away. I do want to invite us and encourage us to hold and with that, yes, I'm feeling these things and I've experienced these things and it's led to these feelings. And and then what's on the other side of that? And Right.

Beth Yoke:

Not being mired in it, but thinking about a solution or a next step.

Linda Braun:

Yeah, I've tried to make change and the thing that bothers people one of the things that bothers people is they feel like they they're, they're being told they've been doing it wrong the whole time. Right, and so like, when you start to say like here's, here's a new way of thinking, re-imagining, et cetera, then people start to feel like, well, no one ever told me that before, or right, and so this is just what I know, I'm supposed to, this is what a library is, this is what I'm supposed to do, and so it's really hard to ask people who've been doing it for a long time to actually reimagine.

Beth Yoke:

Yeah, I don't know if you could use the pandemic as an excuse to make people feel better about that, because I mean the world literally changed right. So you know we're not saying we're not trying to emphasize somebody did something wrong in the past, but we do have to acknowledge the whole landscape is different. The whole landscape is different. So that might mean we have to be open to new ways of doing things.

Linda Braun:

So it's not about right or wrong really no, but that's how people take it, like I was shocked when someone first said to me when we were struggling with making some change, and they said well, you know, Linda, they think that you're telling them they've been doing it wrong for all these years.

Beth Yoke:

Yeah, I never even thought that yeah, I thought this is a new way of thinking about things.

Linda Braun:

Yeah, yeah, it's tough and I guess that is part of it too. Right, like people are so concerned about doing something right, like doing it the right way, that, and and Lakeisha, I think you said this earlier that once you start being a public servant and working with the community, then who knows what right and wrong it is right and, and it makes me wonder like who's defined the right way?

LaKesha Kimbrough:

that, then, can honestly get us to collude with white supremacy culture norms. Right that there is one right way? What if there are multiple right ways? Who gets to define that? Yeah, and what if that definition is consistently in flux?

Beth Yoke:

that's even scary.

Linda Braun:

All right, go ahead path. Were you gonna say something?

Beth Yoke:

no, I'm just agreeing with lakisha. It did make me think about working with boards, board of directors, though, because you know, I would always say you know, when it was time to decide an issue that there are here, there are always multiple directions you could head in. What is the best direction for that organization? So there's never just one answer. It's what do you feel, knowing what you know about the community you're serving, the issues they're experiencing, that kind of thing. What is the direction for that particular community? So it's not about right or wrong, it's more about a direction so it's not about right or wrong, it's more about a direction.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

This, I think, asks us to build in time to pause and reflect. Reflect as individuals, reflect as a, as a library team, reflect with community members, members, um, so that we are able to, um, even see, when we are engaging in the, in being public servants, because I wonder too, how, how often that's happening and it's not being acknowledged, because we're not pausing long enough to reflect on that and count that as. Look at this amazing thing that's coming from this, or remembering the power and the gift of pause and reflect.

Beth Yoke:

You know, I feel like the reflection. Often people feel like it's extra and it's a luxury and they don't have time for it. So really being intentional and being able to articulate the value of reflection, so what, what that gets us as individuals or as organizations. So we don't feel like it's like some kind of thing that you know, you don't feel that you shouldn't spend a significant amount of time on. You know, like if there's a way to make it somehow more intentional or visible or standardized, like I think people need. You know, like, a lot of times you hear go off and reflect and like, but people, it's kind of like a muscle you have to exercise.

Beth Yoke:

You have to help people build the skills to make that reflection useful.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

You have to help people build the skills to make that reflection useful.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Yeah, and Beth, when you were talking and I wonder how often reflection feels scary when it's oh, if I actually, you know, start building this muscle, start thinking about what are those critical questions I want to ask myself, to have this, to be able to engage in this reflective process that will help me and us learn and grow and all the beautiful things that can come from reflection. I wonder how often that feels scary, because I wonder how often it may feel like what if I discover something I don't like in that reflective process? And then what do I do with that? And I think that that is part of being able to grow the skill of that non-weaponized reflection, because we will see things, we will discover things where it's like, oh I, we misstepped there, right, and how do I?

LaKesha Kimbrough:

Um then hold that as okay? What did I learn from that misstep? How can I grow? If that misstep caused harm, what? How do I? Um seek to engage in repair and not feel like I'm just this bad person, I'm so awful, and be filled with shame and guilt and blame myself, right, because then that's that is the weaponization of that reflection. And what happens then is we can get to a place of no, I'm not going to engage in reflection because it's hurtful and it's harmful and our brain will try to protect us from it, right? So yeah, I'm just curious and wondering like I wonder how often that has played perhaps a role.

Beth Yoke:

Well, and I think that fits with your earlier good point, lakeisha about not weaponizing it, especially if you're a manager or a supervisor. So it's not about holding somebody accountable for the error in their ways. It's about the growth opportunity.

Linda Braun:

That seems like a perfect place to say thank you, beth. Thank you for joining us in this podcast, thank you to our listeners.

LaKesha Kimbrough:

I hope you learned and enjoyed this conversation and we will see you next month. Bye everybody.

People on this episode

Head Shot

LaKesha Kimbrough

Co-host
Head Shot

Linda W Braun

Co-host