absurd wisdom
What lies beyond understanding? Beyond certainty? Listen in to conversations between a.m. bhatt and colleagues, confidants, and important thinkers as they tackle questions both timely and timeless, and chat about maintaining your humanity in an ever-evolving world.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and Substack at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
absurd wisdom
The Art of Being Unique, From The Cave to Community, Redefining Achievement, and The Unseen Gold.
This episode delves into the complex dynamics of communication, identity, and personal growth in community development and education settings. It discusses barriers to community development, the influence of digital narratives, the challenges of miscommunication, and the importance of empathy in fostering genuine connections. Furthermore, it highlights the limitations of language, the emotional labor involved in expanding awareness, and the journey towards self-discovery and mentorship in education. Through personal anecdotes and reflections, it advocates for embracing personal growth, self-directed learning, and finding authenticity and fulfillment in one's pursuits.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
So I'm super excited. So today I had a meeting with my research mentor. And, you know, as you know, I've been working on this research for like four years about LGBT service provisions. And of course, my research mentor, I love them. They're always pushing me out of my comfort zone. So they say, hear me out. Start a new one. An entire new one and I was like, okay, this doesn't come without a reason. So, you know, okay, where's this going? So she had seen the video that Scott had put up about me teaching the students who speak Spanish HTML. And so she was like, I like where that's going and I want to see where you are currently in your career and life and where that leads to your research. So like, what would you do to address gaps of where you are now in your career? And so I thought about it, and I was like, it would be really interesting to do research on the barriers that halt community development in programs that focus on project based learning through the use of digital tools and mixed modalities, as well as an exploration of digital narratives in terms of project based learning. So she was like, yeah, that's great. Do that. So now I have an entirely new research project that's going to be focused on with the work that we do here at DAE. Yeah, I'm pretty excited. So we were thinking through like the initial thoughts of doing interviews and focus groups, and I was telling Mo that it'd be really interesting to do like a pre and post survey analysis. Kind of like a, a scale of China, like a Likert scale of trying to understand, like, How students are building communities to the project based learning we have here and how these modalities are affecting how they see themselves and how that affects them post program as well. So I thought that was really interesting. So I'm really excited to dive into that and explore that because I've been doing a couple of readings on that so far. The effect of it as a project based learning and where that research comes from. So, yeah, so that basically that is to say, DAE is not going to have back to research.
a.m.:We're interviewing sort of impact consultants just to have sort of third party, you know, validation. And, and research has been something that's kind of in, you know, been on the back burner forever because we do get asked questions around, you know, how do you do this? I'm like. Okay, I can tell you, but you're not going to believe me, And so, so traditional research that, that, you know, supports Not even supports because like the results support it but traditional research that speaks the language of, you know Sometimes you can only explain things in the language person speaks. Yeah, you know, no matter how true it is It doesn't matter. It has to be in the language. They speak and research is a different language.
Sam:Yeah,
a.m.:so amazing What does that start
Sam:today? It literally happened today. I decided it today. So I'm excited I might do a couple ethnographic studies where I kind of sit in the space. I kind of a little bit of thoughts, what I think, what I feel, kind of do some interviews. If I I'm starting to IRB process, so I'm starting to get the basically the certification and start interviewing people say like, I'm not going to hurt anybody through talking. So that kind of thing. So that process is going to be happening hopefully today and then officially building out the research topic and idea and question, and then building out the interview question. So it starts officially today, which is kind of exciting.
a.m.:Cool. What you're saying sort of, sort of, you know, raises a question for me that I'm actually going to hold and see if there's anything either of you want to talk about.
Mo:So I was, I was talking to my friend Dom and we were talking about like he, he was going with this on, but we came to the conclusion, like, I don't know, maybe some of y'all agree. Most conflicts happen because of miscommunication. And so when you, when you said something about like, you have to speak in a way that the other person understands. That, that reminded me of that. I was like, oh, but not, not, it's not what I wanted to talk about today, but it's just, that just made me think about that.
a.m.:We get so hung up on the, on the right. There's like this, this silly kind of analogy that I've used over the years. It's, it's, it's the sort of traditional ugly American tourist, right? And you kind of go to, you know, wherever you got to, in France these days, they'll speak English to you, but, you know you go to Malaysia and, you know, you kind of go up to somebody in the street and say, you know where is the museum? And they're looking at you like, why? Yeah. You say, where is the museum? Like slower and louder as if, you know, with no understanding that like, it doesn't matter how clear your question is. It's, it's not in the language of where you are, you know. You talk about this with grad students, like they go into the workplace and it's like, you know, I don't care how smart you are in organizational psychology. Business is not about organizational psychology. It is a foreign land. You must speak finance and marketing and, you know, at least, at least baseline understand those things, right? That's the language. And if you're going to get your ideas respected, you have to understand baseline their language. So, yeah, and then at least there's conflict, right? Because, yeah, and then. Individually, like you and I speak a different language. Scott and I, you and Scott, everybody speaks their own language. Like, words mean things. Like, if I say success, that means something to me, in my language, it means something totally different to you. So, yeah. You had some thoughts in the middle of that? Yeah,
Sam:you know, it's funny. I actually had that exact conversation with my mentor because Like, I'm working so much in queer stuff, right? You would think, like, being in a queer org would make it, like, Yeah, like, we're all progressive, we all talk about the same things, but it's like, Me and my mentor were laughing because it was like, Yeah, the most anti queer places is queer places. Places, which is weird. It's like, cause no one understands each other. Like all the young queer folks are like, we have to do this and get people of color and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she was telling this really funny anecdote about how, she's a, she's a singer, she's an opera singer. she's a part of this like queer orchestra. Right. And they're like, we have to make statements about this like political thing. And the other side's like, no, we have to make statements about this political thing, the same political thing, two different sides. And she's like, no, we're, we're, we're an orchestra. Yeah. Like, we're, we're in a restaurant, so like, there's no need for that. And then these same people are going up to her and going like, we need to have more representation for people of color. She's a person of color, but she looks white passing, so they're like, you know, us white people. And she was like, what? Us white people? What are you talking about? Just you. Just you. Right? What? And we were talking about this concept of like, we were laughing about it because, like, I had the same experience with a lot of like young generation like alpha. Queer people were like, Let's burn down the thing, everything's horrible. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Our queer ancestors went through a lot. Let's respect that, take a step back. I'm, I'm, I'm for the cause, but this is a little intense. And it would just kind of be this like, the cat and dog thing. Like, all the queer people need to go away. And I'm like, the old queer people, like, young people don't get it. And you're in the middle, like a millennial, like, okay. I was just kind of talking about how different it is to kind of enter different spaces where, you know, you have this like idea of like, I don't know, like what justice is. So like in my classes, everything's justice related, right? So if you're like, yeah, you have privilege, right? A person's like, yeah. Tell me more. And then, you know, you're both bringing your sources that, that, that, that, that, that obviously it doesn't always happen, but it's really interesting to go out into the real world and you're like, Hey, you have privilege. And the person was like, how dare you say that about me personally? And I'm like, Whoa, I didn't expect that. Or it's like, Hey, maybe we shouldn't use the term spirit animal. That can be offensive to indigenous individuals and their culture. And it's like, let me prove all these sources to why you're wrong. And I'm like, Okay. And oftentimes these individuals don't realize like a lot of my experience cuts come from individuals who exist in that space and have educated me. And I've taken the space to listen. So I definitely agree with the idea of like, You know, you don't always know what language someone is speaking until they're yelling. You know what I mean? Until they're like, Where is the museum? You're like, Oh, okay. That's where we're going.
Mo:Sometimes I take it as like, they're so comfortable with how things are, and how they perceive it. Like, if someone were to challenge it, they're like it's already, I'm already good with it. Why, why do you want to change it up?
a.m.:One of the very few things I, I, I don't like about the fact that we run high school programs is there's so much stuff that I can't get into with high school students just because it's so esoteric or meta, you know and so I guess I'm glad I still at least do a little bit of grad school stuff. So there's this whole kind of, you know, piece of the work that we used to get into with quote unquote adults about the layers of what's happening in communication, right? And so when, when you get that, that first thing of, of, you know, where is the museum? And then the, where is the museum at this point, what's being communicated is not, I want to know about the museum, right? What's being communicated is in the non verbals, which is that you will, acknowledge that I have the master tongue, Like there's some version of that going on at that point without even the person being aware of it. That what's being communicated is you will be in my world. I will not be in your world, right? And so a lot of this, that when, when the thing gets escalated, what starts to get, and even when, before it gets escalated, what's being communicated often is not the words, right? Right. And so I do this silly thing of, of, you know, with, with, with grad students, this thing of like, if I said Hey, hand me a Kleenex, like that means something. And if I said, hand me a Kleenex, that means something different. And if I say, hand me a Kleenex, that means something different, right? They're the same words. It's the same transactional request, but what's actually being requested is very different. You know, that middle one is, Obey me. The third one is support me, you know, and the first one, maybe he's just pure transaction of just give me the hand and and failure to pay attention to what's actually being communicated in the, in the meta space leads to a lot of conflict as well.
Sam:Like I run into that a lot of like a neurodivergent person who can't read neutral faces. They automatically default to anger and I've told people like I if I misunderstand or I seem off when I'm speaking to you, I can't read your face. I also can't do eye contact, like I've learned to count it because it's like, oh, okay. Which I've said before, but it's just one of those things that, like, a lot of people, I don't understand. This is their first reaction when I tell them that. They're like, really? And then they look at me, angry, and they're like, What am I thinking right now? And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm scared. I have been pulled into that game more times than I have liked. And then I just feel like crying and I'm like, and then the worst part is like after I get anxious, because I genuinely can't tell if they're playing with me or that now they're like, Oh, I now have something over you. Like I have power over you. I can make you feel fearful. And I get fearful. They're like, it was a joke with the same face though. So they're just like, it was a joke, like giving me this angry face. And I'm like, Is, is it? And it's and that's the thing is like I feel like a lot and I tell that to people because oftentimes that gets miscommunicated or like I say things that come off awkward or I just don't have the right tone and people are like, oh, why why do these and then one thing I hate that people say to me is like what i'm trying to understand what they say is like Everybody feels this way. Everybody everybody like as examples like Mo, every time you like for example, chew chips, everyone finds it annoying, right? You And then I would go recently like, well, who's everybody? Can you like list them out to me? Right. So I like, can like address it with each of these individuals. They're like, no, it's just, it's not everybody. It's just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, so why don't you say that to begin with? And I'll see you're, you're moving away from the subject. I'm like, I'm confused. And then that's when people get angry at me. And that's really interesting is like, I read a lot of non verbal cues. So like, I look at their body, I look at how they're saying things, like I go off of like tone, but then again, my, the way I perceive your tone is completely misconstrued because of the way genetically I was born. I guess I can't read it. It's just unfortunate for me. So I read everything as angry. So I live in a lot of fear. And a lot of people have taken that really personally where it's like, you're just always misunderstanding people. You're always doing, and I hate that term. You always blah, blah, blah. You always blah, blah, blah. And it's like never about my actions. And then when it's like, okay, cool. Like, Help me understand the action like how can I improve and it's like you just don't get it
Scott:Yeah, I feel like Hyperbole is kind of embedded in our way of speaking English and at least in the Northeast Maybe a little bit more in certain other places, too It's always like, that's the worst or that's the best. Or like you were saying before, I love this. I love cheesecake, you know, like the, everything is just like as extreme as it can be to try to emphasize your point, but you're not really saying anything.
a.m.:This certainly isn't a blanket statement, but, but, but a lot of, you know, the, the, the on the ground, not from politicians and people in power. I think there's other meta communication going on there, but the sort of on the ground reaction to the, you know the queer rights movements, the trans rights movements, the, the, any social progress. What I most often, the most common thing I hear when I listen kind of to the meta communication from people who are resistant to it is about themselves and specifically Confirm that who I am is What who I think I am All right You're introducing these things creates existential crisis in me And the reason i'm what i'm communicating actually is not What I hear is not like i'm opposed to you Expressing this about yourself that that what i'm actually expressing what I hear expressed is confirmed for me that who I am who I think I am Yeah And if you start introducing all these other things to it, then, then maybe I don't know who I am, and that's unacceptable. And so there's this paradox of the pushback is actually not about what they're pushing back against, it's about themselves. Not fear, not like, oh, I might be blank, any of that, but just the, even ahead of that, of just the existential kind of like, you know. Because when there's one thing, whether it's religion or, you know your, your gender identification, whatever it is, if there's one thing, like you are. In, you know, southwestern Connecticut through to northeastern maybe New Jersey, it's the Yankees. You don't need to think about it, you know, that's what it is. It makes life easy. If you're in the northeastern part of Connecticut through to, you know, maybe lower Maine or something, it's the Red Sox. That is what it is. And it's simple, you know. And we start introducing, you know, these variations in it, then like, well, is should I not be rooting for the Yankees? That doesn't make any sense. It's a certain, like, so there's a version of that that I hear communicated at the meta level when people freak out about, about social progress issues, right? It's not actually about the social progress. It's about the existential threat to themselves. Not again the kind of, oh, maybe I am blank. It's not even that. It's ahead of that. It's Maybe I don't know what I am or who I am.
Sam:Oh, my gosh. I have something really interesting to share about that because I did research on this a while back. So this is a concept called social constructivism. And so define, I'll try to define it. So social constructivism is a way to uncover the ways in which individuals and groups participate in the creation of their perceived social reality. It involves looking at the way social phenomenon are created, institutionalized and made into into tradition by humans. A socially constructed reality is seen as an ongoing dynamic process that is reproduced by people acting on their own interpretation and their knowledge of it. And so, interesting because if you connect it to this idea of like, constructible models of communication, right, they describe it as the transactional model of communication is this exchange of messages between the sender and the receiver. The two send and receive messages simultaneously. And every message has two dimensions, content and relationship. Content is the surface level meaning of a message. It's what's said. And when we share messages, we are both the sender and the receiver of any message. Communicated during an exchange, using this concept. Social constructivism only exists because we give it meaning as a society.
a.m.:So, so in the fall, if you have space for it, come audit my P638 class at UNH. What you just said is literally an entire semester, and so this is, this is the basis of my work actually, is, is the nature of reality being a language construct. That the fundamental reality an individual walks around with is made in language. And, and actually we're going to talk about four layers, right? So there's Content and relational elements that comes from Vatsalix's work, and then Bates and Pryor. But even the context elements have like three sub elements, three ways you can break them apart, right? And so everything that's being said, so when I say Hand me a Kleenex, there's content, the actual transaction. And then there's relationship. But there's three aspects. A, I'm, I'm saying something at a meta level about who I think I am. I'm saying something about who I think you are and therefore our relationship. Right? So when I say that, give me, hand me a Kleenex. I'm saying I'm the one in power here. I'm saying who you are is subordinate to me. And then the last thing I'm saying is the actual appeal. So the Kleenex isn't the appeal there. The appeal in that statement is obey me. Hmm. And so every single piece of communication that's going on has these four things going on simultaneously. Everything. And so, if you learn to listen this way, the kind of, you know, secret sauce we had in the consulting side that made us look like magic with people, is just over time building up the craft of listening this way, and you can hear the person's actual appeal. And you don't get lost on the Kleenex. You hear, oh, this person wants to be of aid. Now how do we work with that? And they're not even aware that's what they're asking. Right? Or they're, they're asking other things, you know, support me or reject me. So a lot of people walk around with negative appeals, right? They say, can I, can I please have the job? And the appeal underneath is please reject me.
Sam:It's a curious question. As a person who is both in positions of authority in two spaces, as an educator and, you know, as a professor and obviously as like, here in this space here. Does that come in a lot into play in the work that you do?
a.m.:There's a lot of caution, and I, and I, and I get it wrong regularly. But, but at this point hopefully I have enough awareness to quickly clean it up when I get it wrong, is to not pay, not paying enough attention to the contextual elements of what I say. And so I often, like at this point, not just practice in here of, you know, ahead of time, saying I'm not recommending this. I'm just thinking out loud. Because what happens in my default of a deep baritone voice, I have a title, right? CEO. It has a certain weight to it. Yeah. I get enthusiastic about what I say, because I really care about the stuff I work on. And so when I'm saying an idea, If I'm not careful, people are picking up on the non verbals of it and interpreting my appeal as obey me. As this idea is what must happen. And I'm just thinking out loud with default non verbals of deep voice, loud voice, high enthusiasm, high energy, etc. And so I have to constantly kind of clean it up. And then, you know, at times it's useful to be aware that I have access to you. Thou will obey me in my non verbals in my you know, and and sometimes that becomes useful outside of here outside, you know Yeah, so as an advisor though it became much much more useful Because I wasn't burdened with authority When you get the professor title of the CEO title now the default of everything's gonna have that contextual layer to it Yeah, and you gotta be really cautious as an advisor. You don't have that kind of authority You And so you could be much more nuanced and kind of playful with how you're using these things. But you all, with students, without realizing it, you are, thou shalt obey me, at least in the early days. And then they get to know you, it's like, ah, it's Mo, you know, and they get a different context, right? But at least up front, and with some of them, up front means like the first nine months, maybe, you know, out of ten. But if we're not careful, there's a lot of assumption around what's being said that people bring based on these contextual elements of title and position and, oh, you're the instructor or you're the, you know, whatever. Hmm.
Mo:Remind me of the first summer, the summer program we ran. It was one student called me Mr. Mohameth. And then further on, he was like, yo, Mo. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of switch. Yeah.
a.m.:That's it. Right. The relationship elements change and you're so good at it, you know without being aware of it, that you in the nonverbals are constantly communicating that you should respect me, but you should feel okay around me. Right. The nonverbals keep communicating that. And so over time, people hear that without even being aware that they're hearing it. And so they maintain respect for you, but they, it's, it's mo. And they start getting caricatures of you and they kind of, right, you know, they start having fun with you and all that. Right. Most people have to work at that, right? Some people just get born lucky of just, yeah, I just, I'm just kind of comfortable with myself, and I'm chill, and this is the contextual element. But most folks are communicating things that they're not aware of through all of the non verbals, through all the contextual elements. Even just how you stand, and how you, you know, a great way to end a conversation that you don't want to say, hey, I'm done. I'm going to stand up and do this and so my voice will fade maybe, but like, if I'm, if I'm talking to you like this and I want to end the conversation, I just like to start doing this. Yeah, no, it's good. It's a great point. It's a solid. And, and the other person, most of the time we'll start like, okay, so this is good. Like, so let's, let's catch up on this later. You know, just the body language of this breaks relationship and we'll have them start to wind down the conversation for those who do not. Looking, which is all of you, since you're on a podcast, I just, just shifted my body position to kind of be at a 90 degree angle instead of face to face. And you'd be surprised at what kind of effect that has. So there are ways to use these contextual elements to navigate conversations.
Scott:Yeah, body language is a big one. In a previous Job that I had, there was a lot of folks. It was retail and a lot of people were, you know, rolling in hot, you know, like I was one of the older people and they're like, are you the manager? Immediately running up to me. So I learned through mostly through like spiritual teachers and stuff. Like when you're facing somebody, you're actually creating that back and forth kind of like confrontation. So a lot of times if somebody had an issue, they're showing me something like that, that, you know, here's my, my order is not here or something like that. You move over and you get next to them and it gives a subconscious impression that you're working on the problem with them as opposed to the barrier that they have to getting what they want. And it was, it became this sort of transformational thing that I was able to share with other folks. And I think I, you know, I've seen it used a few times and it was definitely Definitely working in like, you know, nine out of ten situations, most people are, you know, open to getting some help when they feel that way. Some people are just, you know, their conceptual identity is based on resistance. So what can I, you know, what can I push against today? Who can I push against today? And that becomes you know, more of a challenge of trying to figure out, like, is there, is there, is this really the problem? Is there something deeper that I can't really address in, you know, my role here? But that, that sort of aligning with them and working on the problem together, I think, you know, it really, really goes a long way and so many different avenues.
Mo:Do y'all have book recommendations on stuff like this? I can read them.
a.m.:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Sam:I'd say a lot of this a lot of counseling is where I learned a lot of it But you can look up a lot of there's like a couple TED talks on communication I wrote a couple papers to you could read about it, but look up social constructivism that's what I recommend, but I say the best thing if I were to ever recommend it is just sit in a space Like when you sit with a student, sit with yourself and watch. Like a lot of people don't really realize like like I keep my body closed because I'm a very protective person. So if you ever notice like I always sit like this. But another thing a lot of people don't notice is I always sit kind of what A. M.'s talking to, sideways. But if you ever notice when I'm working with a student, my body language is open like this and next to the student and I always ask for permission to do it. Remember when I mentioned when we were talking about motivational interviewing and I said, Hey, don't sit on the opposite side of the table, sit with them on the same side. That was me teaching you that without you realizing it. And the way I learned it was just a lot of like counseling techniques, but you can just look it up. Like just being aware of your own body and yourself, like why you do the things you do, or just even noticing someone. You know, like they turn their head if they blink, or they say a lot of specific words, like just, it's just active listening, but active watching. Just go out in a park, watch people, see what happens. That'll teach you a lot more than any book could teach you, and it's good to come to those conclusions on your own, and have those expressions with others, because that's a more holistic way of understanding. We are placed in the world as an active citizen in the space.
Mo:Yeah. Yeah, technology is kind of interesting because when it comes to phones, like we're talking to someone, someone has their phone on the on the table or it's faced up face down. I saw someone talking about like if the phone is on the table, it indicates like what the person has to say. It probably isn't important because I'm paying attention to my phone. In case we're like students or from like my experience, like we're open up a laptop. I got to see what they're working on. So I'm always next to them or if it's on the desktop screen. So sometimes I'll be thinking. There is like this like this teamwork that's just happening, like, okay, we're going to fix this bug. We're going to build this cool game. So technology, technology is kind of interesting, but I feel like there's, I've got more examples of negative with the tech because it kind of is another barrier. Even with text messages, like there's no hand gestures, no body language you can go off of. So I'm like so careful when I'm texting somebody. Unless it's like my best friend and we kind of already like established, like, I already know what Mo meant by this or I know what so and so meant by this. So technology is really tricky, but that's probably why the in person thing kind of works very well. Versus like the online work from home, so.
a.m.:Yeah, we grew up, you know the whole kind of facing versus on the side is, is, is even predates us. That's predator prey behavior. Like a, a herd of, of zebras or gazelles and all that, they're always vertical to each other. And the thing that's coming perpendicularly is a predator. The line comes up perpendicular to you. A fellow gazelle is parallel to you. And you'll see lines come up and then they'll go sideways. To kind of put the thing at ease. Alright. And then they'll come at you. What comes at you perpendicularly in our animal brain is, is a threat. It's a predator. Alright. And so with the students of sitting next to that, that's herd behavior, right? You're, you're triggering something really, really primal there, right? The, the, not the caution, but a big caution for me on all this stuff though, is, is where we started of individual language. Like what I just said was a broad generalization that is at a broad general level. True, but it's not, it's dangerous to assume it's true for you. You are a nation of one. And have your own specific language, including the nonverbal and contextual elements that are informed by all kinds of things that are your biology, your nationality, your religion, your family of origin, all that, and then your specific set of experiences. Right? And so it's really a lot of caution on just assuming That these principles are universal because they're going to vary person to person. And so the observation thing becomes really, really critical. And then even ahead of that, it's sort of like, you know, I'm wearing glasses. If these glasses were welded to my head since birth, and they had a very light blue tint to them, that's how the world would look to me. And so when I look at you, I think You know, and you're wearing, I don't know, what's it blue and yellow make green, right? So when you're wearing, like, something yellow, I think, oh yeah, yeah, he's wearing, he's wearing green. Or, I mean, I wouldn't call it green because I wouldn't be able to see it, but you see what I'm saying? Like, it would be inherent. And so ahead of all of this stuff, for me at least, and what I tried, you know, we used to try to work on with clients is the self part of it. Is understanding what is the nature of my own reality construct. IE, what's the color of my, the tint of my own lenses. And the better I can get in relationship to that, the clearer now I can start observing other people because I can, I can adjust for my own tinting as it were. Like I see, you know, I have like very, very clear sets of, of, of lens tints on the world. You know, they're not right, but they're really firmly in place. And so understanding that I can, you know, course correct when I'm looking at people's behavior and say, okay, that's not what's happening. That's what's happening through my filter, and now if I kind of separate that out, what's actually being communicated here.
Sam:think something that's useful is like understanding a lot of the ways that people with like neurodivergency operate, because it's really interesting that you say that, because a lot of my friends, they give me tone indicators. So it's something they place before the text to tell me. Like joyous, happy, concerned, like it's like these sometimes like little emojis or messages And I inherently know like to read this in that tone so that that doesn't get misconstrued in technology And it's really interesting because further to the point that what I am kind of bringing up is I don't know if you ever heard of the allegory of the cave But it's a story of like just like a bunch of dudes right there all like chained up And they face this, this wall, the cave, and the cave behind them is open, right? So they just hear like, echoes, echoes, echoes. Every time someone talks, right, when they talk with each other, it bounces off the walls of the cave. Behind them is the light, right? So they only see these shadows moving forward. They see these sounds coming from the shadows, and they can only ever see each other through the peripherals, right? You take one guy out of the cave, you send him out into the world, right? He sees the sun for what it is, right? Out there. The loudness of the people, the grass, everything, right? Everything. He has taken in an entire new perspective of the world and then they put him back in the cave. And he says, the other guys, you wouldn't believe what I saw out there, all the things that happened, and the guys next to him were like, What are you talking about? That's not how the world works. Crazy. And, but now this guy has to live forever in the same reality with his mind forever expanded. aware of what he's seen, but almost unable to truly communicate it because he feels unheard because he's experienced it. And it's, it's difficult to communicate the experience that someone else has never had.
Scott:Okay. Can't unsee it.
Sam:The mind is expanded. It can never go back.
a.m.:it's Plato's allegory. Can't unsee it and can never explain it. There's no amount of explanation that'll have the people in the cave who were only looking at the shadows ever understand it.
Scott:Language fails. Yeah.
a.m.:Well, it's not that language fails, it's that language isn't complete. Again, this gets back to, like, everything is language. Behavior we talk about speech acts in the work, right? And so, you know, that tonality I used is a speech act. My shifting my body is a speech act. It's communication, but outside of words, right? And so what's, what's, what's needed is other language. For that, for that person to describe actual, for the, you know, for him to share, to communicate what it is he actually saw. And the word, the verbal language is, is insufficient. If, if just a different take on that. Like if I. Take this pencil, I don't know why I'm doing this on a podcast, no one can see it, you know, I'm just gonna have to cut it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now beware for theater. A piece of paper. So, like I do this, right?
Sam:Pop the pencil through the paper.
Scott:Yeah. Tip of the pencil through a horizontal piece of paper.
a.m.:Pretend that went through cleanly, you know.
Sam:Okay. Right? So the pencil gets pulled through the paper.
Scott:Nice, nice drafting pencil.
a.m.:Yeah, let's just say, you know. It is a very nice pencil. Yeah, let's say it's not a, you know, it's just a clean, right? Now, if you lived in purely two dimensional space, two dimensions, right? The third dimension doesn't exist. What just happened?
Sam:Something just broke your reality.
a.m.:No, your reality is.
Mo:I don't know.
a.m.:This is a hole. Out of nowhere. This space emerges and it grows and then it's just there. You wouldn't see the pencil the pencil exists in three dimensional space. All you'd see is from nowhere, this pinpoint opens up in two dimensional space and grows to a certain size and there's just there. And just avoid the circle there. Absent being able to see third dimension, there's no thing you could do in this space to explain what just happened that captures what actually happened. You need to move into the third dimension to have language, to be able to understand what happened. And so if you take that now into a psychological realm, you know, folks are walking around in X dimensional world, you know, a certain fixed level of dimensions of how things are. And when you introduce them different genders or different religions or different whatever's, it doesn't compute. There is no language in which to, you know, you have to break the reality in order to be able to incorporate these things. But if I break reality, then who the hell am I? Everything I know about myself, my whole sense of certainty is grounded in this reality. And so you introducing the idea of a pen, three dimensions, fundamentally calls into question everything I know about life and therefore myself in the thing I call world, two dimensions.
Sam:So, I ran into that issue literally yesterday. Because without thinking I was next to a couple of individuals and this individual basically brought up like, Oh, I have two laptops in my backpack. And you know, there's a joke. It was like, how many laptops are you? He's like, Oh, I have four. And I was like, wow, imagine the amount of privilege. And they said, I don't have privilege. And I was like, you fundamentally do the ability to buy a computer is a privilege. And then the individual went on to say, yeah, but they're old ones. They're like, not good anymore. They fell apart. You know, I just need to use them for what they do. And I was like, again, the statement still stands that there is fundamentally a point of privilege there. Okay. And then so on the conversation went with the individuals around me where one individual was like, ah, I don't walk around like i'm a prince. I don't walk around like I have all this money I don't walk around like I own everything And I said, yeah, I understand that but it's important that we still acknowledge that privilege exists It is in the space it must be spoken about even if it's something that we inherently don't want to have It inherently exists in all of us. We can both exist at a point of privilege and oppression. That's intersectionality That's a core piece of it. But If we never really talk about the privilege that exists in the space, even as a person who holds it, we can't ever address it, and so on and so on. This went on until the individual started speaking so much about themselves, and so much about their personal perspective, that I had walked away from the conversation, physically, and I don't think anyone even noticed that I had just put on my stuff, and I took a walk away, and I had no idea where that conversation ended up To the point that you're kind of bringing up of breaking people's realities, it's, I don't think a lot of people talk about the emotional labor that comes from the person who's the first to break that barrier for people. Like I realize as a person who's had the blessing to be educated that a lot of times when I bring up terms like intersectionality, privilege, and hegemonic masculinity, people will look at me like I have three heads and it becomes really defensive and really aggressive really quickly. And I'm often put off by this because I'm so shocked. And I realized like that is the same person I could have ended up had I not had the privilege of education. And that's something that kind of scares me is like, there's not a lot of spaces where we allow that kind of communication where people can have the reality broken in such a way that's safe enough where there's still a net where you can reassess yourself, regather yourself and walk away from a new lens. It's almost like you never get to leave the cave with that new perspective. You're stuck in the cave. And it's really, really traumatizing for a lot of individuals. And I think that's something that a lot of people talk about, is how sometimes aggressive communication can be, and how traumatizing communication can be, when it's not done in a way that's safe for everyone and holistic.
a.m.:Yeah. I would, Sam put forth, I mean, for me what so is, the whole purpose of education is to break you out of reality. The purpose of training is to make you more effective within the existing reality. Most schools are places of training, places where you get better and better at being effective in the existing reality. And every now and again, some education happens. And if you get a good instructor or whatever, right. But for the most part, all the way up to higher education, they're, they're, they're places of training again, making you more and more and better and better prepared for effectiveness and efficiency in the existing reality, but education by its nature for me, the way I use that word is a safe and yet quote unquote dangerous space. Dangerous in the sense of its whole intent is for you to step outside of your reality, step outside the cave, outside the water, outside the thing. Have that certain kind of existential, you know, crisis, and reform yourself into next, whatever next is right.
Scott:Going back to like what Mo was saying in the beginning, you know, talking about with your friend about communication being the basic problem. One thing that kind of occurred to me a long time ago was, When two people are having a conversation, there's actually like, you know, four senses of identity having a conversation. You know, there's who I think I am and who you think you are and then who I think you are and who you think I am. Like having this engagement and, you know, depending on how you align yourself with, either side of those identities. It really can turn into something that's like, you know, not even clear that it's miscommunication. It's like everybody's being authentic, you know, in the sense of the, what they think is authentic. But the outcome can be, wait, I missed that. You know, I missed the, I missed the tone. I missed something. I'm, you know, I can't add like emojis in real time to, you know, like qualify what you're trying to say or what you're trying to convey.
a.m.:what'd you stick up?
Mo:What you just said. A remind. I'm, I'm not sure if this is a, I was trying to look for a quote or something, but it was the goal of education. A, a person to learn to take what is real as real. I forgot where I, where I've heard it from, but it, that's why I was looking up. It, it reminded me of that. Yeah. I was trying to find the, the author or the speaker.
a.m.:Here's a line from Carse, one of the first things I got, I got a copy of Carse's Finite and Infinite Games when I was in college. I got a, a, a, a first, a pre release edition, my, one of my professors knew Carse, it just, it just spun my head. And, and one of the first things that caught me was this distinction he makes, is that to be trained is to be prepared against surprise. The whole point of training is to be prepared against you, that you know that the reality so well, that nothing can happen that you're not prepared for. Right? And so a mechanic is really, really, really well trained to the degree to which there's no car problem that can show up that he or she or they are not prepared for. Right? And so training is useful for, you know, mechanical things, for fixing things, right? So to be trained is to be prepared against surprise. To be educated is to be prepared for surprise. To not know in advance what to do, but to have the capability to engage with something that is surprising, that's new, that's out of your reality, it's outside the cave. Right? And be prepared to engage with it creatively. And that, that's the, you know, sort of like, that, that distinction of training and education just sort of just, just hit me in the face, hit me in the, kick me in the teeth, among other things in that text.
Sam:I think something that not a lot of people who are in education realize is that learning is a process and not an outcome of education. In that, you can be as holistic, you can be as self directed, you can be creative. very open to like cross communication in your class. Like you might have this really great idea for an activity to teach about your syllabi or your course. Right. You have this really great idea of how it's going to come out and it doesn't, it fails. And unless you take the step back to look at the process, like how did you communicate, like, you know community learning, how did you communicate how this process will work, whether it's verbally or non verbally, and how did you create that, did you already communicate that this would be a failure and that your expectation, and then realizing, like, okay, cool, maybe this didn't work out, what can I look at to understand this process and learn myself, like, There is learning in that failure. There is learning in the messiness of it. I don't think a lot of people in education realize that that is an okay practice. Like even for myself, sometimes I come up with these really creative, nuanced ways to explore ideas. And it flops. Students aren't interested. They don't like it. And I get really frustrated sometimes because I think to myself, Oh, I planned everything. It should be perfect. And I recently came to the understanding of that was always my problem. That was always my problem is I always thought that inherently it should work because I thought I understood the students But that they could have been different anything could have been different and instead what the students were doing was teaching me And I was learning to be a better educator because the students were challenging me without even realizing it And so like to your point Mo about communication and like kind of relating this to education and I think that But the best kind of learning comes as a process of communicating both with yourself as an educator in the space, communicating with the space itself and communicating with your students both verbally and non verbally and then taking a step back to really step out of the cave and see what you're not seeing and be open to breaking your experiences into the frustrations and shock and just overall like experience of what that really is because that's a gift.
a.m.:When it's working well this is what our, you know, sort of educator processes are, are there for. When Kyley and I were initially sort of, you know, figuring out how to, and then iterating on how to do it, right? The debrief process and the, you know. It is a collective opportunity to, to, you know, invite each other out of a particular cave around understanding a particular student or, you know, and sometimes it becomes mechanical. And now we're just kind of doing, you know, a process check on students and who's, who's, you know, who's 80 percent done is 40 percent done and that stuff's useful. But the real value of those debriefs and those, you know, the two o'clock meetings and the seven o'clock meetings before and after sessions is, is this. It is. To the most reliable way I've found out to kind of make sure that I'm outside the cave as often as possible is community. A community of practitioners. Right, and the community can be just two. Like Mel and I had the best of that relationship that I think I've ever had. But just someone else around whom you're having meta conversations about the work. Right. Because those meta conversations about the work, inherently we're both in different caves, and if we're focused and committed, we can kind of point out, Oh, yeah, just stop right there. You realize what you're saying about client X is from the context of the cave you're in with them, to keep using that analogy, right? And what if X, right? On the failure thing, Sam, when I think about my grad student classes, all but one of them, The consultation class has, has an outcome to it. And so that's designed to get somewhere. And, you know and sometimes failure happens absolutely. And then it becomes learning and it becomes, yeah. But all my other classes there are designed for failure. Like I am looking for, it's paradoxical. I'm successful if there's failure. And so like that P638 class I mentioned, like I, I intentionally, and I'll tell students this, you know, halfway through the course. I intentionally have so much in there and so much conceptual in there. It's designed to kind of have them be like, What the fuck? What, like this just like, I can't. I had one student that was early in the teaching, like Slam, I remember, I'll say his first name, Nate. Yeah. 18 years ago. At one point, like, you know, the fourth session in, like slam his computer closed down and just, and I, you know, I'll, I'll just address everything in the room. I did not slam it down, like angry, angry, but just, you know, it's kind of close it and just, you know, and I said, what's up Nate? And he goes, we're 4 classes in and, and I, and I, you, you still haven't said anything that I feel like I can write down to remember. And I'm like, yeah, let's, and it became great that like that whole session pivoted on that because we got to, we got to the failure, right? And that's the kind of, I'm looking for that failure, that failure of how you know how to engage in learning. I want that to fail. Because I'm interested in a different kind of learning for you, at least to get you exposed to. And so the, there's nothing to write down. Cool. We got the failure on it. And now let's talk about what there might be when there isn't stuff to write down. And how that's not better, but a different, it's a different game. It is the, you know, the game that's about, oh, what other dimensions might there be? Within the space, there's lots to write down. That's all very useful. But until you get like exposed to stuff that you have no way of writing down, because you don't even have the language for it yet, you can begin to question You know, how else am I to engage? So, you know, I think what that failure thing looks at, most of my classes are designed to get to failure meaning failure of how it is we learn, how it is I'm supposed to learn, how it is, who it is I'm supposed to be as a student. then it gets interesting. And then people stick around. He said a call prior to the way I was late for the podcast is, you know, a student from 17 years ago, who then kind of interned with me and worked with me. And now, you know, she's like a peer and a colleague and a friend. That's what gets interesting. And sometimes it lasts for decades.
Sam:That's really interesting. I've been kind of going through that process myself of just utter failure. Like yesterday, I'm going to be fully transparent. I just full on cried yesterday because I think I was looking at all my colleagues that came from my high school and they're like, doctors, mayors, lawyers, they have their own companies. And I just sat with myself and even I was even just looking at my partner and I was like, wow, you all did really great things with your life. What did I go wrong? And I was like, I felt so like dejected and sad, like couldn't even finish my degree. Like I was just coming at myself left and right. Like I just was bawling my eyes out. Like I, like I even stepped away from my partner cause I didn't even want him to see it. And I was just sitting there so sad and just reflecting on all these things. And something that I'd like realize is like somebody had recently sent me a text. And they said, you're a really great educator who cares deeply about your students and you are meticulous to every last detail. And in the same vein, I was sitting in my capstone class, just zoning out. I want to say, I just don't know what to do with this thing. And I just like, I was so frustrated. I turned and I was like. Why don't you just do this? This is an option for you. Like, I hadn't thought about that. Thanks. I'm going to write that down. And I was like, what? And I just sat there for a really long time, just in distance, like deep in the thought about everything. And I was just like, wow, I don't have all this degree. Like I'm a failure. There's nothing I can do. And then sitting with all this failure, I realized like I have been deeply miscommunicating with myself. Like, it's just like this idea that like, I am not enough. What I do is not enough. Therefore I'm not enough. I'm always on edge. And. I realized that, like, I just started this new narrative, this new conversation with myself, which was like, what if, just as a perspective, I am enough, right? Because I thought about this deeply. There are educators that I know that have, like, four PhDs and work at a community college, and I couldn't get it. I was so frustrated and confused, like, how I wish to be you, how I wish to have what you have, how privileged you are, how frustrated I am. They were happy. That was their thing, that they were happy. They were making an impact. And then it hit me is like, despite what the world communicates to you, despite what people communicate to you, right? If your wants and needs are valid and important and enough, right? You will find the thing that is yours, right? And wherever you end up is not a failure, right? That is just what the world communicates to you is that we always have to chase more and more and more, right? And when you come into a conversation with people about like these pains you have like I don't feel like I'm enough oftentimes your friends Will just yeah, yeah, you're great. You're great. You're great. You're great, but there's never the truth of like no you messed up You're trash bro. Do better. Like here's the things you need to do to better and people don't want to hear that When you really sit down and think about it, right these frustrations in class, right? These ideas that you have to get a grade these ideas that you have to be all of these things if all of that went Away, if all that communication stopped for just a moment Could the reality you've built for yourself be destroyed in the way that you're talking about? Could you create this environmental space for yourself where you can learn the things you want to learn, explore the things you want to explore, and just be good at it? Like, if you are just the best associate at selling clothes, that is enough. And I don't feel like that is something that's communicated enough as individuals.
a.m.:I have an answer to your question of can you and the answer is yes, because we have now can you do it in scale? I don't know what thousands of people that through through, you know, the Historical programs and then this thing is about, you know, the kind of continuing to figure out how to do it with high school students sorry you had that experience yesterday And it sounds like it was You of it, a sort of healthy, you know journey to go on in terms of where it sounds like you may be landing on it. One, one of the silly sort of victories that I, that I would enjoy in the advisory work and now it's not a big deal anymore. It's sort of gotten normalized, but you know, in the nineties and early two thousands, you're getting like really, really, really senior executives and like global hundred companies to like quote, The Grateful Dead or Rage Against the Machine. The guy put like, you know, so there's this story, you know, the dead were like this amazing live band. Their whole thing was live music. The albums were mediocre at best, and some of them are just horrible, right? Live music. And they'd play like 100, 150, 180 shows a year. Like they were on the road constantly for three decades. You know, a couple of years they took off here and there in the mid seventies, but yeah, constantly. At some point in the mid 70s as this interview, they're asked so like, how did you get to be the best at this? Like you redefined what a, what a band could be. Like, how did you get to be the best at this? And Garcia laughs and says, no, no, no, man, you don't get it. We're not trying to be the best at what we do. We're trying to be the only ones that do what we do. And that would be a conversation with executives around like strategy. And brand, it's not about being better, you know, if you're Reebok, it's not about being better than Nike. It's about being uniquely Reebok and being better and better and better at that. And so you're right, Sam, what we do in the world is we give you, you know, benchmarks and say, now weigh yourself against that. Are you good enough? Are you better than, are you less than, whatever. As opposed to what you're pointing to and what we've always tried to create in our environments for 30 years, and hopefully we're, you know, creating here, is you are the benchmark. Now, there's no slacking on it. Like, it's a higher order of rigor than traditional school, actually. But the benchmark is not any external thing. It's you. How are you going to become the most rigorous, powerful, grateful dead version of you? Because no one can compete with that. It's not about competition. You're a unique expression. It's, again, it's how you develop artists, right? How do you find your artistic voice, the singular voice that you have? How do you find that, claim it, and build masterpieces with it? Whether that masterpiece is making, like, insane, like, insane bacon, egg and cheese bagels, man. And like, that is your thing. And you are like, people eat that and they think they just had a Michelin star, you know, like there's no good or bad scale on it. Just what is your thing? And are you willing to dig so far and be so rigorous to bring it out in the way that you only, you can at this highest possible level and you die. Like I said, I actually did a Holberton talk. Around you're never going to get happy. You can't get happy. You're either going to start from happiness or you're not. You're going to approach things with happiness or you're not, but there's no way to get happy. There's no way to get happy. And it's all just iterative. It's like iterative. It's, it's, it's, this is my masterpiece now. And in a year, there's another masterpiece. It's even deeper expression to me and the deeper one, deeper one. And I think victory in life is to die with a fucking paintbrush in your hand, reaching for one more stroke. On the next masterpiece that is your expression. Yeah. But I don't think it's about, you know, titles or, or accomplishments. Those things are great, I mean, along the way, sure. But that's not, like, it's you, man, it's you. Who are you, and how are you going to bring that out in the most powerful way? Yeah.
Sam:Well, I have actually a question for you, since that kind of seemed, like, that's Everything a.m. Was describing kind of reminds me of you. Like you're always doing something and they're always like doing it well and you're always exploring these new horizons. Like how did you get to that point yourself?
Mo:So like my, my my past system and education is pretty non traditional, like after leaving a university and going to Holberton, but uh, for me, like I always wanted to be an inventor, always wanted to make stuff. So I, like. When I was young, I liked to write like books and stuff, but I never thought I'd be a writer. I was always into tech. So tech is kind of like I forgot how I told this, but it's like what I code. I didn't think I would be writing code. I thought I'd be some kind of electrical engineer and I wanted to like invent things that, but for me, I guess like that is my art. And if people can experience it, that experience, experience it. Then they have like a part of me for example, like me shipping my apps on the App Store. I like, I'll tell kindly if I go into New York and I see someone using my app, it's like, that's kind of cool. It's like you're using something that I made. Everyone has access to it. It's like a part of me is on someone's phones and it's like they get to experience my ideas and my creations. So like even on the, I have a website called mostudios.io, but I have a, I have a page with projects up there, and I'm going on Twitter, now known as X people are posting their ideas, and some of them are like similar to the things I'm building, but they're not my things, so my version is you know, and they're doing some really cool stuff, but if I just stay to what Mo wants and what Mo envisions, it's gonna be, it's gonna be really dope, because when they play around with it, it's gonna be, this is Mo's version, and I think of it as like they have my version of a book I wrote. Yeah. Because they're experiencing it through software and stuff, so that's kind of how I express it through tech, but maybe some, I brainstorm like writing books and drawing stuff too, but like for right now, that's kind of my domain. It's like this writing code is like my way of illustrating my ideas and people get to experience it visually. Through their day to day lives, whether it be a game or a useful tool. So, yeah, this is like, my computer is like my canvas right now and then I'm publishing it through, through the web.
Sam:Do you ever feel like your experience as an educator here contributed to that narrative you built for yourself or like that, that want?
Mo:Yes, because the, the students they, they want to, so what we had is I, I Talk about enchantment, like I get, I get excited when they're excited about their ideas, or we're on the same goal, like this community. So the community here, the community I like when I was at Holberton, education has always been my highlight of education for me has been like at Holberton when I'm around people who want to achieve the same thing and build just cool stuff. So, when students want to do something similar, that kind of excites me, and the word we use, enchantment, enchants me to go do the same. And, yeah, so, and, some of them just blame, I think what really got me started this year was a student was like, Mo, where's your stuff? He was like, what did you build? And I was like, no, I built a bunch of stuff. But I realized like it was locally on my computer. I didn't actually put it out there. So when students are coming up to me like, yo, Mo, what did you build? Like, what's the domain? Where do I go find it on the app store? I was like, okay, I gotta, it's time for, it's time to start publishing.
a.m.:That's great. That's great. That's a, again, the level of, of Like, what's required of an educator to educate versus train, right? Is receptivity, that kind of thing. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, like, over you. We're doing the same thing. I'm more, I'm further along the path than you in exploring my voice, my work. But it's like a reminder of, oh yeah, we're actually out for the same thing. And you're right, I haven't published my stuff, let me publish my stuff. As opposed to, I got the credential, I don't need to show you anything. I got the PhD, I'm teaching, I don't need to show you shit. Right? Like a traditional teacher would, you know, might take that mindset, you know. Like I proved to the people who hired me, you know, I don't need to prove it to you. But you don't even take it from that way. It's just like, yeah, there's a there's a there's a, there's a caution in the, in the, in the social media age that you're not susceptible to around this kind of, you know, we're not trying to be the best that we do. Try to be the only ones that we do, you know, kind of finding your own voice and just pushing that is you know, right now a lot of people are, they think they're in that space, but it's not different. Not finding your own voice. They're finding their own ego. And it's not about like my unique voice and my masterpiece. It's about my brand. You know, it's not actually my committing deeper and deeper to my work. It's my crafting more and more my unique image. And that's sort of like, ah, whatever. Like, you know, I just want to clarify for everybody listening, like that's not what we're pointing to, you know, we're not pointing to, again, like with other things, not that image is bad, you know, not the, but, but that's not what I'm pointing to when I say deeper and deeper unique expressions, it's the work, whatever your work is, coding, writing, painting Bagel making, whatever that is. Down here in New Haven East, if you haven't found it, East Rock Bread. East Rock Bread on Stage Street, like two doors down from Gather. They just open like, for like four hours a day, three days a week, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Holy shit, the bagels there. I love Olmo, Olmo, love Olmo, but holy shit, the bagels are ridiculous. And this one, they do, they make bagel, for like nine hours a week, they make bagels and a couple of loaves of bread. That's it.
Scott:Starting to host shows and stuff too.
a.m.:Are they? Yeah,
Scott:I don't know where.
a.m.:But just like, you know, and they are amazing. This is an artist or is there a couple of artists? You know, it's phenomenal. They're not trying to like be better or whatever. They're making, you know, I think I got two more pumpkin Seed bagel last week and I literally pulled my, I got it. I got in the car and I'm driving up to, you know, to, to, New Milford and I literally, I took a bite out of the thing. I literally pulled over. I'm not kidding you. I pulled over and I'm like, I'm not, I'm sitting here and enjoying this bagel. Like it was that good. And to me like that, just, you know, that that's, that's what I'm talking about. Like we're just doing our thing and we're doing it so well. You're going to pull the fuck over to enjoy a bagel.
Scott:And they're not telling anybody about it. Other people are telling you everything about it.
a.m.:This is what happens when you got your thing. People spread you, man. You don't need to worry about your, I say this somebody, Mo and I know Scott knows, I guess really try to convince me to, you know like you got more social media, you got to be more positive, like, you know, a while back, more polished, more polished. I said, here's the deal, man. I don't mean to offend anybody, but here's my relationship with it. If you are, you ever see raw aluminum. Yeah. All right. Like just a hunk of this, like, it's like blackish silverish metal. So if you're selling aluminum, I get it. You got to polish that shit up, get it sandblasted, get it all polished up, put it in a velvet box with a bow on it. And then people are going to want to buy it and say, Oh, look at this shiny silver, right? I get it. So I don't sell aluminum. I got hunks of gold and I can put it in a brown paper bag that people going to line up to buy it. You know, and so I'm not worried about putting, I'm worried about, can I get better and better and better at mining gold and teaching others how to mine for gold? And they will buy it and it's raw form. They don't need a pretty box on it. Nothing wrong with pretty boxes, but like, that's not, you know, if you're still digging aluminum, if you're still selling aluminum, then maybe don't focus on the shiny box. Focus on what is your gold? And once you got your gold, then you also want shiny box. Cool, great. But find your gold. Find like what it is you can excavate that nobody else can excavate. And then maybe if you want to worry about brand, whatever.
Sam:It was funny, I fell into the opposite of Mo. Where my whole thing was about building a brand. Because that's all I had is like I was never like good at the thing. Like I'd care about a thing a lot and then no one would care. Like a lot of my stuff is like queer work and I have been bashed so many times about it that I've just given up on it. And it's always like, Oh, like look at all these amazing people doing a PhD. What about you? And I'm like, I'm figuring it out. I got it. They're like, yeah, that's not good enough. Do better. Or like, you're just not this enough. Like I remember being student council president and I was, I was bashed so much. I just straight up quit because it was so exhausting for me as a person, even though I cared deeply about the work. And then I would try to get these mentors who were like about like education. I'd be super excited to work with them I get
a.m.:ghosted
Sam:and then these are these mentors who were like, yeah, I'm so great Like I care about all these students and I'm like and you threw me away Great because I wasn't enough great and it was just like this constant thing So I gave up entirely on everything and I just kind of floated through life And it's really funny because now I'm just in this space where I'm trying to refigure out what that is because I've left social Media, it was just so unhealthy like I realized at some point like I had four social media accounts I was running. I was trying to post content daily. I was constantly writing like yeah I cared about my research But I could never get anybody to care about what I was saying or what I wrote about And I realized this year I got to this point where I wasn't doing good at any of my college classes I just I was frustrated. I'm like what the hell this isn't who I am And I realized it's like I didn't want to write anything I didn't I don't I don't want to say what I want to say on the paper because I don't care Because it's like, why the hell am I gonna spend two hours writing this stupid thing for you to give me a stupid grade and stupid feedback I don't care about. I don't care about my cl like your class, and I don't care about this. Like, I don't care. I'm just here because I need a stupid piece of paper. That's where I'm at in this space right now. And I realize it's like, I haven't been playing board games, I haven't been writing, I haven't been drawing, I have done I haven't been dog training. These are all things I used to care about and I care about nothing. I'm in this space where I care about nothing right now. And it was really interesting. I just, I was just sitting there and yeah, yeah. So that's actually funny. Yesterday I was sitting there, I've done with all my work and I was telling Kyley. I was like, I've done everything you've asked me to. I'm going crazy. Give me something. I was just like, I don't have anything for you. I'm like, okay, fine. And he's like, all right, can you come up with this? And I was like, cool. I did it. He's like, it's been an hour. I'm like, but I did it. And he's like, Okay. Like, you're always coming up with all these processes really quickly. I'm like, yeah, like now what? Like now what's the next thing? Give me the next thing. He's like, you need to like, take a step back. Like even my mentor was like, take a step back. And I'm, and I realized like, for me, it's always about like, cool. You like this thing? Cool. That's all I did. My whole thing has always been on other people. It's always been other people. I've never been my thing. Like I built my entire thing on my queer identity. Cause that was anything I was good at. I only went to this college because it was some guy I liked. And then it's like, cool. I just happened to be good at this thing. I just happened to be good at this thing. it's really funny because in sitting with the students a lot, which is really similar to what you talk about, Mo, is like, sometimes I see students being there like, if I don't go to a top 10 school, I'm not good enough. And in my head, I'm like, I've been there, it's going to work, good luck, you know, but I don't say that to them. And I'm like, okay, why does that matter to you? Because then I'm not good enough. And in my head, I'm like, And it's just really funny to see someone just say things and just be like yeah I would write this thing but it's not enough and I look at them like and it feel kind of bad because sometimes I don't know like and like This school doesn't care about you like not to be a jerk but like write the thing you like because at the end of the day the school just cares about getting your money and making profit out of you and like how this school will make you the best person in the future So say that. Bottle them up. Blah blah blah blah blah. You look great. Still write the things you like, but like, at the end of the day, like, you're gonna get that thing you care about. You're gonna get there because the school only cares about this. Go for that, but at the end of the day, realize that that's what the school is. It's a conduit to get where you gotta get. Explore the things you want to explore. Try the new thing. And if you don't get into a top ten school, it's great to be a big fish in a little pond. Go for it. Have that energy. And it's really interesting to just have that perspective. Because I think in my head, maybe I shouldn't be saying that outright. Like, you know, screw the top ten school. Just do it. Just go do the thing. And then have these students like, just change entirely like, their personality, feel excited or like, Oh my gosh I missed this one specific thing on this exam. And I go, guess what? You're already good at the thing. You're good. You're, you're fine. I'm proud of you. I love that for you. Or just like, when I look at their thing, I'm like, you did that? That's so exciting. Like especially with the online Synchrony students I work with is just, how are you? Good. I'm happy. Like how are things? And just hearing about their life brings me so much joy. And I realized that was the thing I cared about. That's the thing I'm good at is like, I've always been really good at just being the person like, yeah, man, F school, this place is the worst. Nobody likes this. I don't like, I don't want to be here. This is awful, but we're here together. So we got to figure it out. Let's do it. Like, yeah, stuff is miserable. Yeah. Stuff is sad. Yeah. I want to cry on the floor too. Let's cry together and get up and go do the thing. Like, and I, I've seen a lot of, and I realized something that was hitting me. It was like, I was sitting there so sad. Right. Looking at the LinkedIn, all these people. Right. And I realized. Half of these people were my students that I had trained and mentored and I had seen and pushed and had conversations with and been through all this stuff and like sent them to these programs and I, and I did the math and I found 80 percent of my students went to be doctors and that blew me away and then I remembered that, I was actually, I was sitting in my capstone class still thinking about this frustration and goes Hey, do you remember me? I was like, what? No. And she goes No. I saw you at a graduation, I'd like this thing for transfer students, and you're the reason I transferred and you're the reason I did what I did. And then I got another student who said the same thing. And I started to realize like that was my thing was always helping people. Even my partner was like, I gave up on everything in high school. And if it wasn't for you who believed in me, I don't think I would have been where I am today. And that's why I wanted to be in your life because you were just this really beautiful ray of like a sunflower that never got sun from other people, even though you're always giving it to others. And it, like, it's just like, it's amazing, and I think that that's just like a beautiful thing that we're able to give with education that not a lot of people talk about, it's like, you never know what you're communicating, and you have something, but if you're chasing that ego thing like what I am kind of been speaking to is, you'll, you'll kind of not water your plant, your thing.
a.m.:I've said this to Kyley a couple times and I'm realizing like shame on me for not saying it to you directly, Sam. Like I marvel at your ability to like have and I value your ability to have like this real, serious, legitimate, and rigorous commitment to difference and advocating for difference. While having a really clear head about shit's got to get done. Like having solid, like a, like what I would call a business mindset. Those two things combined are insanely powerful and they're rarely together. You know, the, we got to move forward and there's no compromise on valuing and advocating for difference. Like in the world right now, those two things are odds. And so it's one of the things that you, that you bring here, that unique expression that like that, like I would encourage you any ways you want to, you see to you, whatever, like that dual thing, that unique kind of, you know, is spectacular. And I, I, I get less just personal value, less concerned about, like, I don't, do I say this? In the face of somebody, you know, sort of having, energy for things that I think are just like, you know, hypnosis or, you know, social programming or whatever. I get less concerned about trying to talk them out of it. And I'm more concerned about encouraging them to keep the little spark of whatever the thing is alive and growing. Because that spark, if it grows enough, We'll burn away the other stuff internally, right? In a way that, that no amount of Mike trying to convince them will to let go of these things they've been programmed around. Yeah. And again, I think we do a, a decent job at it relative to what we will do in five years and certainly a better job of it than, than most educational institutions with these kids of really, really helping them claim kind of whatever that internal spark is like, you know, There's a bunch of kids, but I'm thinking about, you know, in particular, like that, that, that kid, when he's 50, he's going to talk about you. I'm not kidding. Like the pivot you've had on that kid's life is it's, it's, it's going to be for the arc of his life. And it wasn't like things you're telling him not to do or don't think, right. It's what you awakened in him internally. That's his, you didn't give it to him, but like, it just, you know, it's like that fire got started and now that fire is just going to sustain for decades. Yeah.
Scott:Kind of reminds me of the, was it Maya Angelou quote? People forget what you say and what you do, but they always remember how you made them feel. That's kind of, you know, how it all feels here. It
