absurd wisdom
What lies beyond understanding? Beyond certainty? Listen in to conversations between a.m. bhatt and colleagues, confidants, and important thinkers as they tackle questions both timely and timeless, and chat about maintaining your humanity in an ever-evolving world.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and Substack at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
absurd wisdom
Identity is Created, Not Inherited, Naming in Cultural Traditions and Going Beyond Ownership
This 2025 BONUS Episode from the early days of absurd wisdom explores the significance of naming and identity through personal anecdotes and cultural insights. The host shares a story about being named Alpesh through cultural traditions and explains how various identities like Al and A.M. emerged over time. The discussion includes friends sharing their own naming experiences, the cultural practices of naming in Hindu and Ghanaian traditions, and the impact of names on personal and professional identities. The conversation emphasizes the importance of claiming one's own name and identity.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
No, is to be within a specific discipline, a specific world, a specific reality to know is extremely useful for getting things done within that particular discipline or world or reality to be an effective doctor or a pastry chef or a financial analyst. There's much that is critical to know, but knowing by its nature is bounded by, and in fact reinforcing of, the reality within which it occurs. For 25 years, I've worked with executives in large organizations, grad students, tech entrepreneurs, religious leaders, and no doubt my toughest client, myself. I'm developing the capacity to explore what lies beyond knowing, beyond certainty at a practical level. This work is required for things like innovation, but more importantly, I found that this inquiry is critical for maintaining one's humanity. Oh, and if you're generous enough to be listening to these conversations, I respectfully submit that at any point, if you feel you understand what I'm saying, you're not listening deeply enough. Alright, so, so, so this, now the answer, so the entry point, now this does get more meaningfully into, into what came up in, in, in this podcast interview that I did. And really, so the woman asked me, uh, uh, about my name. And she said, so, A. M., why, why, why, why, why do you go up? I'm just curious, why A. M.? Okay, cool. We'll tell you why A. M. I don't think I've ever told the story here. So, you know, it'd be good. Um, so when I was born, um, I had an older brother, um, who died before I was born and he died the way I tell the story because it's accurate. He dies from complications of poverty. Um, he literally died of, um, uh, dehydration like his body could get a bacterial thing. There was no medicine. And, you know, and so, um, A year after that, I'm born and in the tradition and in the kind of Hinduism, or at least a version of Hinduism, I was what's known as a begged child. When you have a child that dies, the next child that comes, you've begged God for it. It does not belong to you.
Kyley:You're
am:not allowed to buy clothing for it. You're not allowed to buy toys, nothing for a year. You can have people give you clothes, they have to be used. You can have them give you toys, they have to be used. You're not allowed to have anything. My name, my parents didn't give me. It was somebody else gave the name and some of the birthday was Alpesh, right? Now I love that name and the people, my family, my mother, my sister, my family, India, that's what they call me. And I like that identity like means something to me. It's connected to a whole tradition on it, but I didn't choose that identity. I landed here and like, I can remember it like so vividly. First day of class. The teacher, like, Al! Welcome, Al! Because Al's a name they, you know, it's an Italian area, you know, West David, New Haven area, they knew Al. And from that moment on, Al. I know so many people who call me Al. I'm totally cool with that name. There's an identity associated with that name. I didn't choose that identity. A. M., I've always put on my creative work. You know, like photography, and I've published a couple of photography books and my acting AM. And over the last few years, I've just decided to kind of push that a little more. Not because I dislike those names. I value those identities. And I'm okay with people calling me Opesh or Al. Those are identities I absolutely have. But they're not identities I chose. AM is the name for the identity I chose. Right? And so, so, you know, uh, uh, uh, I'm okay with that. I indulged her question in, in, in, in the, in the podcast. Um, at that level, you know, kind of the full story as opposed to just giving her a, a quick thing, which is I normally do because it, it was, it was able to, uh, I was, because I wanted to use it to, to open up a conversation about DAE. It was like, you know, um, there's a, there's a, uh, um, I'll send it to you guys offline. There's, um, the poet Saul Williams. Um. He's like a poet, a writer, and a filmmaker. He's a really amazing guy. Um, there's a poem called Coded Language that I've always loved. And, um, it's a video of him performing it at Deaf Poets, which is a show that he used to be on. Deaf Poets Jam. Deaf Poetry or Deaf Poets Jam? I don't know. Um, Most deaf, uh, now known as when you see bay, he's the host of it and it's just great. That's some great people on there. Uh, anyway, in, in coded language, he's got a line. He says, we must allow our children to name themselves so they can claim themselves. Right. And so like I use that story of my name to kind of get into like part of what you can look at, we're doing here is allowing kids to name themselves. Right. As opposed to the names that they were given. And metaphorical names, right? You know, not that anyone in here is going to change their name necessarily. Uh, so, so, uh, now I'm going to shut up and, and like, be curious what, you know, your kind of take is on this issue of identity and naming yourself. Not just like, like, because you, you know, Mo, but when you introduce me on stage, I want to be known as mama. Yeah. Right. Uh, so what's your relationship to literally to name and, and what that does for you, your K.
Yeah.
am:But you're not, right?
Yeah.
am:Um, and sometimes you're K Pinky. Yeah. Right? And so, like, the relationship, like, the literally, like, name and identity, but then even, like, software engineer, that's a name, right? Like, getting named that or choosing to name yourself that. And so I'm just curious, like, what you all see about, you know, this kind of issue of naming yourself, naming other people, and then what that does. And then, you know, if you got any thoughts on, like, what we do here or what we do in, kind of, DAE and this whole, kind of, naming and identity thing.
Kay Pinky:Quick question. Before we all get into that, the part where. You could, you know, your parents couldn't name you technology before we log into that conversation. It's great. The part where your parents couldn't name you, is that part of the whole Hindu culture thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And is it, is it okay? Um, the community has to name you or someone else else. It was one of my aunts that, uh, uh, uh, that, that chose the name. So is it, is it anyone else or someone in your family or I, you know, I honestly don't know.
am:Uh, now I'm going to have to call my mom tonight and ask her. I don't know. I don't know if there's like a, like a certain protocol on that or if it's just like the loudest voice gets to impose the name, you know, but basically they couldn't name me.
Kay Pinky:I thought that was interesting. Yeah. Um, yeah. In a good way.
am:Yeah. So you're, you're kind of, you know, you, you, you, it's, it's like, you're, you're an orphan for a year, basically. It's like, I didn't raise you to kind of all but they can't. You can't do anything they might do like if they quote unquote own you like you can't provide anything because it's borrowed might be taken back like your last one.
Kay Pinky:Yeah, the opposite view is like, you know, paying respect to like, you know, whatever religion, whatever God, whatever God, you know, whatever it is, it's like more honoring that thing. You know, I mean, because, because your parents could have said, you know, no, we're not, we're still going to go ahead and name you. Yeah. Right. But I guess it's, they did it with thought and care, which, which, which, which makes you special. You know what I mean? I mean, that's how I view it. I'm just trying to, you know, I try to put spins around stuff and I always try to make it positive. But I'm thinking your parents could have said, no, we're going to name you. You know, lots of people have done that, but they went with it and said, you know what, we're going to go with this religion and the guy, whatever guidelines and, and follow that. Um, however we feel, because we think that's the right thing to, that meant they cared, cared about you.
Yeah.
Kay Pinky:And that's why they did that. And if everything went well, then you're here. That's good. You know what I mean? And when you have that, then I get it. I'm going
am:to pass along to my mom tonight when I ask her about, about where the name came from. Like this rule, I'm going to say K approves.
Kay Pinky:Yeah.
am:I used to call you Al. Yeah. I didn't know anything about AM.
Kay Pinky:It's what most people have called me, like most, most Americans. That's, yeah. Actually, me, I asked him this question today. Uh, yesterday, yesterday. And we're talking about, I told you, I said, I used to call you Al, that it was, it was awkward calling you A. M., and then now I've called you A. M. so many times, it's awkward calling you Al. Names are very powerful, man.
Very, very powerful.
Kay Pinky:And I was like, Al, or what? A. M. now. Okay. So back to the question. Yeah.
am:What's in a name, as the Bard said?
Kyley:Interesting. My story is similar and different to yours in the way that I mean, I got my name. My name is Kylie. It is, I didn't understand the name, I think, until I was at a playground one time. Clearly didn't understand, understand Stranger Danger, but this woman was calling my name. And so I ran over to her, and I, her like, daughter showed up at the same time as me, talking to this child. And I'm like, it's like, my brain is processing. What's happening here and understanding that my name is traditionally used in the female context. And so I've had the other way where like people trying to switch to Kyle. I'm like, nah, nope, my name is my name or they switch my gender. It's like I was in the girls gym class. I was signed up with the girls gym class my freshman year because they transitioned my gender in the records. Because one of those things had to be wrong. And clearly the name was, was more accurate. And so I've, I have. Refuse to take on nicknames And all of those things are like my name is kylee and you will call me by my name. Yeah
Mo:Yeah for me um So i'm named after my grandpa on my mom's side Uh, he in senegal like the cosmos region. They're like really religious. So he's what you call sharif Um, so he like studies quran. Yeah, so I guess it was like some pressure me like always doing well in like quran school or sunday school You Uh, but I would say I've been fortunate enough to like, whatever I chose to do, they were just, they just told me to make sure you do it well. Um, I think that's the only thing, and then Mo came from my elementary school teacher, Miss W. She just read, it was the first day of school, she read the attendance, she was like, Mohammed, Mohammed, is it an ED or a TH? And people were just telling me, I think you're supposed to have an ED at the end or a TH. My dad said it's like a French way of saying it, I don't know. But she asked me, can I call you Mo? And I was like, Ooh, that sounds cool. I was like, I was like, yeah, you can call me Mo. And everyone started calling me Mo. Um, and I guess that, the students started thinking that was my name. So they all just ended up calling me Mo. Um, and I guess after getting to college, I think people started saying, uh, Mo Sec. And I didn't like that part. I was like, no, it's just a nickname. Just be like Mo and then Mohammed Sec. So when they started putting my nickname to my last name, I was like, I'm not really feeling that. Yeah. Um, but no, I,
am:it's fascinating. I never put that together, but actually I had the same experience, but I never realized that until literally just the moment. Like I was totally fine with Al. I still am fine with Al when I see Al Bot. I hate it. I, I, I have a reaction to it. Like, like it's just, it's, I don't know what that is.
Mo:Do you have a sense of what that is to you?
am:Uh.
Mo:It's a title. It goes back to the title. It's like Muhammad. It's like it's on paperwork. It's on like, um, Also the meaning of where it comes from, from like named after my grandpa and the influence he has out there, but it's like, at the same time, it's like, it's a, it's a nickname. It's like something you say for short, and it feels like you're like shortening my title, you know,
Kyley:I've never heard of a name and title being put together. And that's really interesting. And this part of my name, like, this is my title name. This is the thing that is my identity.
Mo:I think it carries more weight. Yeah. Because when you say Dr. King, it's like, all right, that's cool, Martin Luther King, but if you say Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., it's like a whole, like that carries a lot of weight.
am:So, so in, in, in, again, in the kind of version of Hinduism, the subset, the cast, all that, uh, your middle names are actually the male, I mean, very patriarchal, right? So, so technically my name, like my middle name on my paperwork is Madhusudana, which is my father's name, but my actual name. Is Alpesh Madhusudan, my father's name, Shiv Shankar, his father's name, uh, Krishnallal, his father's name. Like, and so you, as many generations back as you can go, those are all your middle names. It's all the male, you keep your male lineage in your, so in terms of titles, like it's a family title. Cause Bhatt, you know, there are a lot of people that have Bhatt. That's the last name, right? Like Johnson or whatever room. Um, and then that lineage of your names. I was like, yeah, this is the particular thread. This is the, you know, the title. This is the house. This is the whatever. Uh, kind of, it's that kind of feel to it. Is this someone who has a really long name
Kay Pinky:name? Yeah,
am:but as you think all of our names though themselves, like my father said, well, deuces done. It's like all the names are 14 lettered along names. And then you got like 14 of those, right? Yeah. Yeah. Big signature is a very, uh, uh, problematic thing.
Kay Pinky:I hear Patel a lot. Patel. Yeah. I hear it a lot.
am:Where do I go? Yeah. It's a particular region. It's the region I'm from. Actually. Uh, Patel is a pretty common name.
Mo:Some of the, they also, the last names are also like extra groups. So like, uh, SEC, like when I went to the airport, I, I told him, they said, you read my name. It's like Muhammad's psych. It was like, you sound like Ali is because usually people with SEC are more dark skin. Right. My mom. So they were like, okay, you're sick. All right, cool. What's, what's your mom's last name? And then we say, I doubt it. Like, Oh, okay. That makes sense. Cause it's like a, what's it called? Casting? Yeah. Like cast system or something.
Yeah.
Mo:Well, yeah. My middle name is Fidel. It also comes from my grandpa. So I'm starting to like Fidel too. Like I'm cool with people calling me Fidel now. I'm like, I like, that's all it is. No, it's great. It's like, um, I don't know. It's like a, It's kind of cool to, like, change your identity sometimes. So, like, moving forward, it's like, Alright, someone's calling me Fidel. It's like, alright, that's cool. It's like a new chapter, a new beginning type of thing. Yeah?
Kay Pinky:Yeah. Yeah. For me? See, I have a lot of names. Honestly, you don't even know all of them. I didn't know his is Kwame. That's a whole different thing. I didn't even know that.
am:This is the first time I'm hearing that one. Okay.
Kay Pinky:Well, so, so Kwame, everyone has a, so based on the day you were born, you have a, a name. Okay? Everyone, if you're born, if you're born on a Saturday, you have a Kwame, uh, title. So there are lots of Kwame. If you see, if you see anyone called Kwame, they are born on Saturday. You see, see someone called, uh, hear someone called Kofi. That's a Friday. There's a name for a male female. That's cool as a title. Everyone has that title. So both of my brother and I we're Kwame. Um, there's a basketball player called Kwame Black or whatever, Kwame Brown. He, he's born on a Saturday. You can just tell. Um, so there's that, that's, that's that. And then, um, and then my actual name is Kakra. That's just the title of a young twin. Yeah. The youngest. And that's, that's what I grew up, you know, being called Kakra. Like, and I hear that I, I hear me and then, you know, It's, it's like a, a, a hip thing for people to call it, you know, p, p and K, or K and p. And so my mom would call us, Hey, P and k, you know, or, or cock like, like, she wouldn't go cock and pain like, like, you know, KP just to be like hip or fancy about it. And so I, I got attached that because I, I realized it was a thing, you know, people were happy, you know, using that name and, and, but, but I always was connected to Carra, right? So in the back of my mind, I'm like, okay, K, all right, it's cool and all that. But I'm, I'm connected to Carra and then. And over time, you know, it was used more and more, like I was like, Anytime I'm introducing myself, I would always say Kakra, but people would always call me K. I'm like, okay. It was always confusing to me, like, if you call me K, Like, it took me some time to be okay with the fact that, You know, on my passport, you're never going to see K on it, but people identify, Like, see me as K. There's so many times where you're like, wait, what's your name? You know, is it Atakaka? Like, where does the K come from? I don't see K anywhere, so I got used to that. Um, yeah, so that's a long story of, you know, kind of, how I kind of accepted that. But, Kpinky, though, that's an interesting one. So, back in 2014, 2013, 2015, there was a cryptocurrency exchange called Poloniex. Right, it was the first of its kind. It had a chatbox called the Trollbox, first of its kind. It was the best in the world, and just a regular chatbox. And then you, before you sign up, you pick an alias, and I actually pick Kakra or K, something like that. And then, they had a feature in there, when anytime you tip someone, you actually become pink. Right, so you come, like it's a shade of pink, and you have to really tip to get to the highest level. Like, it could take you two years to get there. And, um, I went crazy with that, that chat. I really went crazy. I was tipping left and right. Um, cause, you know, I kinda like that stuff. And I got really, really pink on the site. Probably like one of the, maybe out of maybe like 10 people out of like millions on the, in the show box. I was really pink. I post a message. Everyone knows I'm in the, I'm in the, I'm there. It's like, Hey, you know, and then I'm like, Oh, this is actually cool. And then I asked them what the moderate is. They were, they were purple. Everyone else was gray or, uh, or white. Some people. And I said, Hey, can you, can you just add pinky to my name? It's like, um, sure. And then he's changed my name. Instantly. My name changed to Kate Pinky. I'm like, this is really cool, you know, the fact that I could fire name, you know, it's like, but actually, so, so I was like, it's really cool. The fact that it's attached to that idea of me given was cool. And also like, you know, religiously, like we believe in giving a lot, you know, um, some people like to think given you shall receive, but I just think giving is just a good thing, right? So I was like, Oh, this is actually all works together. So I started introducing myself as K Pinky, my online game, online names, game names, whatever, K Pinky everywhere. And I really, really, I'm happy when people call me K Pinky for that reason. And I also used to like the colors black and blue and gray a lot. Those are the only colors that I like. I was like, I'll wear all the things, but I defaulted out. My mom takes us to the store. What do you like? I want the black box. And my mom was like, choose, choose colors. And I really, really liked that. And it took, took me a while to like, to kind of like, like colors in general. So, pink was like, also tagged as a girly thing. So I was like, you know what? I like the color pink. And then I, I, I discovered blue. And I discovered, you know, red. And I'm like, colors are genuinely great. You saw me build that website one time with a bunch of colors. I looked at that thing. I'm like, whoa, this is actually great. And so, um, I, I, I got used to that idea of just like colors in general, paying closer first, and then, and then that. I know, all this stuff is not connected, I'm just talking right now. But, um, I really like K Pinky, I like K, I've just accepted the fact that, you know, it's what it is. As long as it has some meaning to, to it, um, it makes people happy, I'm happy, I'm good. You know, as long as it has some meaning. People still know, some people call me Kakra, some people call me K Pinky, Kiko, Kiko because I used to play games a lot and I beat everyone. Um, and so, and so that name Kiko became a thing of like a competition. That's why I'm always like, you know, competitive and everything. Cause like they used to give me fun. I keep going and I feel great. And I, you know what I mean? So that's why I actually plan to call that ping pong league one day, one day in Ghana, ping pong league, the Kiko league. So I talk too much. I need to work on that.
am:It's just fascinating to me though, because it is, it's, it's, it's this thing. Like. So you have all these names that are tied to different identities that you value, right? And they kind of mean different things and different, I'm fascinated by the, uh, uh, I've never heard this and I don't think we, I mean, we're, you know, we do everything complex in India that's, you know, around, uh, uh, stuff like this. And, and we, I don't think we even do this, like you have a day for the name of the week you're born, right? So you've got a day for your birth order. And down to the specificity, if we even have a word for if you're a twin and you're the younger of the twin, like that is hyper specific
Kay Pinky:identity naming, right? Yeah, there are lots of people with my name. There are lots of people with my first two names, Atakaka.
Kyley:Yeah.
Kay Pinky:Like all younger twins have that title. And also there's a thing, if you go to high school, like first year is like your initiation. Everyone gets a nickname by your school father, which happens to be a senior. You don't choose, they pick you. Your school father picks you. So just a senior person and they give you that name. Um, and like, I'm going to call you enzyme. Cause I studied general science in high school. Yeah. It's the thing you say. And, and you're like, you know what? We're going to call him enzyme. And everyone was like, Oh, and since then high school, They don't call you by any other name. They go by Enzyme. Enzyme. Your close friends will come in and call you Kakra or K. But Enzyme was a thing, it was a name. Um, and so sometimes I go to Ghana, there are people who will see me and go, Enzyme! And I'll turn around and everyone knows it's me. Or someone will call me Kakra or K. Or Kaki, you know, or Kikok, you know, or. Whatever, whatever. So they use all these names, but I, I, I, I connect to all of them because they all have a story. Yeah. And I'm okay with that.
am:It's, it's, I, I reminded you last summer, or I guess maybe it was like fall, I, um, uh, ran into somebody that I have not seen since college. Like it's been like decades. And, um, It's like, Oh my God, Stu, is that because I was known back then as Stu. I had a girlfriend in, um, uh, senior year in high school and, and I had this like beat up old, uh, uh, Chevy to chocolate Brown Chevy Nova black bench seats. It was great. It was, it was like broken down three days out of seven, but I loved that car. Um, I bought it for 500 bucks and had a track player in it. This is well past the eight track era, but that's what this car had in it. And so, like, I scrounged, you know, eight tracks, like, I find them, and I had, like, six, eight tracks that would just rotate, but one of them was, uh, uh, Led Zeppelin, uh, actually, two of them were, were Led Zeppelin albums, uh, and there was a song, I think it's on Physical Graffiti, uh, called Boogie With Stu, and I, for whatever reason, that summer, I loved that song, and I played it all the time, and the girl I was dating at the time just started calling me Stu, and that was senior year, and I went off to college, and I got to, like, like, remember so vividly walking into the dorm, and And like, you know, on the, on the, on the dorm, you know, uh, on, on my room, it had Alpesh but, and you know, my roommate, uh, who's going to be good and walk in and they're like, you know, uh, so what should we call you? I was like, Oh, my name is Stu. And so for everybody that knows me from UConn and from that era, Stu is the only four years I've ever used that name. And there's an identity attached to it. There's a way of walking attached to it. There's a certain. Like, like Stu was, was sort of in the vein of, you know, like, like, uh, I don't know if these references make it, but yeah, it was like Neal Cassidy and, uh, uh, Charles Bukowski and, and, and Jim Morrison. Stu was living that lifestyle. Highly creative, but highly intense and highly, yeah. And so anyway, so, so this last, like, fall, I see this person, like, just again, random, it's like, Stu, is that, you know, like, I had this, like, science fiction moment where like I almost felt my body change because I hadn't thought about the identity so long but I saw this person I knew from that era called me that name that name was a trigger and also I'm like back the feeling what that felt like and you know it's just a wildest thing and you got like 40 of those it sounds like yeah
Kay Pinky:I go well yeah but but it's it's a it's a cool thing because like it's just for me it's one of the things that make me happy you Um, and I, I'm like, I'm not going to force it. Um, it, it has a, you know, I, you, you can, you can tell people you're this, but like, they're going to call you whatever they want to call you. And, uh, I, I have this mindset of like in life, I don't force anything, you know, like, um, things are just gonna work themselves out, be like water. So I, I've, I've, I've stuck to that. Even when my, my, my body, my, my mind, whatever is telling me, okay, do something about it. Fight it. I just let go. Uh, because I really believe in just like letting loose, um, and you know, so I just let it be, but, but doing that every single one of those names, like they have a story behind it. Um, and it's like, okay, you know, it's, it reminds me of a certain time in my life that this happened in time. I laughed at this happen. And, um, yeah. But do it. So it's funny, right? During the serious times, people call me certain names. During the times I'm playing video games, they call me this, you know. During the sad times, they call me this. Like, when my mom died, no one called me, no one called me Kay Pinky.
Or no
Kay Pinky:one called me, uh, you know, this, you know. Someone's about to crack a joke, they use the funny one, kaki, you know, and someone's about to talk about video games, and I win, it's like, oh, kiko, you know, when I go to high school, um, we, you know, actually went, went back, went, went to one when I went to Ghana, you know, a while ago, it's like all the old students come back, uh, and then they all call me Enzyme, no one called me by my name, so Enzyme, you know, they're introducing me Enzyme, or he was the this, he was the that, um. And then over here, it's get Pinky, you know, but we don't need to get Pinky all the time. Right. You know, sometimes I try to just push it and everything, but
Mo:you just reminded me of like, when my mom's like, like mad or like trying to get my attention, she'll say my first and my middle name. That's her dad's name. So she's like Muhammad Fadal. Like she's really trying to get my attention. Oh, what do y'all think about people calling you by your last name as if it was your first? I had a soccer coach who called mostly everyone on the team by their last name. Um, I thought it was, I've never, and that caught me off guard cause I was like, just call me like Sec or it'll be like, uh, Sanchez. And I thought that was like a military thing. I don't know if he was in the military, but that, that, that was, I was okay with that. That was fine with me.
Kyley:I've been in football too, playing sports. It's very confusing when you call someone's like, I had a friend named Flood and it calls house. It's a whole family's flood. So, it's flood there. You're like, what? It's music outside of that specific area of conversation.
am:Grad students do this for some reason. And just, it took me years to get used to it. And just, and they're coming from everywhere. They're coming from around the world. They're coming from around the country. And they call a professor, they call me Ba. Like, I'm like, like, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't, it's just like, so disconcerting though. Um, I don't know where it comes from. I don't know why it's like just a norm in, in, in that environment. But it is to this day, I guess students, you know, there's just, he's laughing, nothing else. No professor bot, no, you know, no first name. It's just bot. Even in emails, it's the weirdest thing is emails start bot comma. Do you know where I can find that?
Kay Pinky:weird it for me. Like I grew up like thinking that if you're trying to be respectful or professional Yeah. Like people use it all the time, Mr. But or Mr. Sec. So for me, I just do it when I'm just either trying to be like, just like, uh, like when I say to mom, I'm just trying to be respectful to my friend. There's something about it that's just a little funny. But do you put mister in front of it sometimes? Just to be funny though, right? Not because. I really, you know, I'm going with the mystery.
am:It makes sense to me, but just the last name to a stranger. It feels weird.
Kay Pinky:Yeah
Mo:Yeah, not bad. Just weird. And it might be too much from the side of my side coach today, but I was like, it's pretty cool. Um, there was a student in the first summer camp. We used to call me Mr. Mohammed. I forgot his name. You probably remember. I probably
do.
Mo:I think he was in the video. He was in the arts and ideas. We'd be like, Mr. Mohammed, excuse me, Mr. Mohammed. He was the only one that called me Mr. Mohammed.
Kay Pinky:I don't, I don't, I don't relate to my, my last name. I mean, I use it less. I don't connect to it. Um, interesting. If I was to pick, I, I'll pick that last even weird. My dad made lots of mistakes when he was doing this paperwork stuff messed up our birthday on, done it. So now I'm stuck to the 21st, which is not rule my, my rule birthday every time they ask me. Wait. Yeah, yeah. Wait, what? So what are your two birthdays? My actual birthday is the 23rd of December. For some reason I don't, no, it's not. Is it? My actual birthday is the 23rd. We did talk about this. Yeah. We have the same birthday. I don't know how he messed up 1 and 3. It's not like 1 and 7. You know, they're close. But 1 and 3. How do you mess it up? So, it's both in December. Well, yeah. So, he put December 21st, and that's what's on file in the passport. So, we can't mess that up. It's going to be a whole process. So, alright. So, I told my wife, I'm like, whatever you do, 21st, okay? When you're interviewing you and you're coming here, it's the 21st. We do practice, you know, it's like, oh, what's my birthday? And it's like, it's like 21st. That's great. You know? That's epic. Um, So 21st on paper, I'm so used to that right now, but my actual birthday is the 23rd and that's when I actually celebrate. It's actually perfect, because everyone wishes me a happy birthday on the 21st, so I accept it. But on the 23rd, I'm just alone, I'm like, yeah. You know, and the people, the OGs in Ghana, the ones actually calling me like, happy birthday, I'm like, yeah, you know, you know. Um, but the last name, Di tom, uh, Di tom, Di tom, I even forgot how to pronounce it, I don't relate to it. Even where my dad, my dad forgot one of his last names to ours. And so when he was doing the paperwork, he was afraid that they're going to say, okay, that's not your son. So he had to, in high school, add that other name. I don't know if some of you have seen it as an H E N O U N, Hennon, you know, I don't even know how to pronounce it. I don't connect to that name at all. I looked, I saw that name. They posted in high school. They announced it to everyone. There's a name change. So my friends were like, Hey, someone actually had to come to class and tell me, Hey, your name has changed. I'm like, what are you talking about? So I went to the notice board and it says, This person's name has changed to Dittomi Hennon or whatever. That's my dad's. Uh, he's kind of half a Benin or some Haruts or whatever. As soon as I became a citizen, I removed that name ASAP. And I just stuck to D TOMMY because D TOMMY is what I grew up with. So I removed that H E N O U and off. There are still some debit cards and credit cards and, um, old passports that have that name. It's all gone. So it's now Atakaka D TOMMY and done. I don't relate to that. Like what? It's just added. Halfway through my life, there's no, no stories. No, no, no connections. No, nothing. And when the name like that is added to my name, I see no point.
am:But you said you don't have a relationship to, to, to, to Datome either, right? Like that doesn't have a big
Kay Pinky:Yeah, I
am:don't, yeah. Is that a cultural thing? Is that like others in, in Ghana? Like the, the, because all, all these other names have so many specific anchor points for identity that the last name isn't a big deal?
Kay Pinky:Well, it's also, it's also like, um, My, my mother doesn't have that last name. Marriage issues, right? So, didn't have that. My mother has a different last name. I would, I would have loved my mother's last name because I, because I grew up with my mother. I didn't grow up with my dad. I didn't see my dad until I was 10 years of age. Yeah. Because he was here. Um, that's what I'm trying to prevent. The reason why I haven't gone into kids because of that. I'm trying to prevent that, right? Because my wife's still there. I don't want my kid to not see me for 10 But yeah, he didn't see him for 10 years. I did. I'm up to now, you know, I am trying to bridge that gap with my dad by being friendly with him by watching sports with him or like making jokes because it hasn't been there. And so there's no, there was not a lot of connection to that name. I still like him. You know, he's my dad regardless. Um, so I left the detail me because it's still part of his name. But the Henon, like what high school, like halfway through my life or no, I know I'm not halfway through my life, but a significant period of my life. He added name that I have no connection to the thank God for American citizen thing. You could remove it and choose whatever name you want. I was like, please, I'm not changing. Just remove that one. Stick to Africa. Could you tell me my 20 years or 25 years or whatever? Let's just, let's just continue with that. And, um, yeah, my dad still has that name. You can have it. It's fine. It's all good that I didn't connect it at all.
am:There's a distinction actually between kind of label and name. Right, so that, that, that, that second last name you got wasn't, didn't exist as name for you. It exists as a label.
Kay Pinky:Yeah, yeah, the label. With no connection, no feeling, no interest. The D tomy, I had a lot of memories of it in school. People were using it. People would call it Mr. D tomy and people would make jokes with it. Like, I have a connection with it. If I don't have a connection with the name, it's pointless. Every other name I have a connection with. Gaming, crypto, you know, Kaki, you know. Yeah. There's a, you know, even the khaki shorts, like, you know, khaki, the brown, whatever. Sure. There's a connection with that where people, people, anytime someone, we used to wear that in high school, everyone, um, they'll, they'll, they'll say, hey, go work, go work, you know, K shorts or khaki shorts. And they'll all point to me. Like, there's a connection to it somehow, you know what I mean? I still need to work on my talking. Can't help it. Which part? Stopping or cutting it down, but it's not, it looks like it's not going to happen. I'm actually trying to keep it low now, keep it down.
Mo:A principal in like, um, middle school. Um, I forgot his last name, but he, he has a doctor title. So he made sure everyone always referred to him as doctor instead of principal. So like, that was his substitute. I forgot what his last name was, but. He didn't, he didn't, he didn't want to be principal of something, he wanted to be a doctor of something. And we were asking like, what's the, why? He was like, because I worked hard for it.
am:That's my title. There's a, um, this amazing woman I met, I'm still connected to her on, on LinkedIn, like, you know, 10 or 12 years ago at a event in, in Atlanta. Uh, it was an Enneagram event, which, which we have to do Enneagram in here at some point. Um, it was an Enneagram event. And, um, because we're on camera, I won't say her actual name, I'll change it, but she introduced herself. My name is Dr. Johnson. Right. In this group, kind of going, okay, Dr. Johnson. And then later, we'll kind of, you know, more casual, and I see the name tag says Dr. Johnson on the name tag. And I said, oh, so what's your first name? What should I call you? She goes, Doctor. I said, oh, okay. Anyway, turns out that's her first name. Oh, wow. Her father. Hold on. Her father. Deep South. Black man, and had been through some shit apparently, right? He had seven kids, named one of them Doctor, was the first name, named another one Lawyer, named another one. His thinking was that just to talk to you, they're going to have to give you a label of respect. And then you're going to hold yourself to that standard. So from birth, like you are Dr. Johnson. Because that's your potential in the world. From birth, you are Lawyer Johnson.
Kyley:Wow.
am:Because that's your, so all her siblings have these names that are titles, as first names. Because this thing was like, you will, like talk about powerful, claiming a name, right? Like a name, claiming an identity, claiming a place, claiming a dignity, claiming and all that. It's pretty, pretty spectacular. And she, man, she owned it. You know, whether it was just fluke or whatever, I attribute it to, you know, that, that upbringing and that name. That, like, she was, she had a. magnificence about her because this is somebody who like spent her life like I am here, you know, not in an ego way, but like I am here. It's just beautiful. Was she an actual doctor? So she was PhD.
Mo:Oh,
am:so she can go to medical rep. She got a PhD. So she's technically Dr. Dr. Johnson. I was just about to say,
Mo:you call it Dr. Doctor? Yeah. I was going to ask, so if it was just her first name, did she just have the D R in her last name?
am:No, it was Dr. D O C T. It was actually, let me ask her first because she spelled it out. And I was like, oh, so what's your first name? Oh, the first name?
Kay Pinky:That's cool. I think there have been people who've gotten two PhDs and they actually are called Dr. Doctor. And so if this person got two PhDs, you call them Dr. Dr. Dr. Johnson. That's intense right there.
am:Yeah, yeah, it's, so, so, so, so what about the kids then? Like, what, what, what, we don't overtly pay attention to this. Like, we're really like, we are overtly like, okay, what do you want to be called when you're here? What do we, so we kind of overtly pay attention to it that way. But I'm curious if you guys see anything, um, that emerges around people kind of more deeply claiming their name. Like, anything at one. I won't say names, uh, out, out in Stanford.
Yeah.
am:Very much kind of, you know, with us, I think before with anybody else, it seemed like, claimed a name.
Kyley:At least organizationally.
am:Yeah.
Kyley:The thing that I think strikes me most is the confusion around the question sometimes. Or it's like, what do you want us to call you? Well, people call me this. Yeah, yeah. Well, what do you want us to call you? I don't know. And that's. Cool, think about it. Let me, let me know what you, what you want to be called and we'll, that's what we'll work towards. Yeah.
Kay Pinky:I've actually heard that specifically as a student.
Kyley:Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Um, I've actually had an adult student come in. I was like, what do you, I can just be called anything here? And they're like, yeah, you, you, think about it. I don't know. Well, I want to be here.
Kay Pinky:It's also interesting because like this, uh, this has become a space where they're comfortable saying. Call me this, uh, but when, when this, when my parents are here, don't call me
Kyley:this, you
Kay Pinky:know, that's interesting, that's really interesting.
am:It's, it's, it's, it's a really big deal to name yourself, you know, to like actually name yourself, um, which isn't about changing your name necessarily, right? But naming yourself and, and what we see happening in the world in a very positive way. And then. You know, unfortunate backlash just to a people naming themselves in terms of their gender identity and their sexual identity all that like that, that to me is the process I'm naming yourself like I am, you know, and this is how this is the, the, the, you know, the identity container that you will reference me in, right? Very powerful. Um, and yet still very foreign.
Yeah.
Mo:Some, some students who like, uh, were set on going that tech career path that like, sometimes I would, I would, if they do group projects, I'd be like, Oh, so you're like the front engineer, you're a project manager, you're the back end. And they would actually like, like, yeah, yeah, I am. Yeah, I'm, I'm doing this role for my project. Yeah, you can call me the back end engineer for this group. So sometimes take ownership of the. Potential titles they might have in the careers they might choose.
Kyley:So I actually have a deep set of version to that. Cause I, my dad, I built a bunch of cool stuff out of connects. And I was like nine. I remember the moment I was like, man, you could be an engineer. And since then I'm like, I could be an engineer. And it wasn't like I could be an engineer. Like it's possibility. It's like, this is like an identity that was placed on me that continued to manifest throughout my lifetime. And like, uh, I am. And I didn't like it. I have those skill sets, but I don't want to be an engineer. And I've, I've, I've tried to be really careful with that sometimes. I think, how do you make it see as possibility without putting a developing mind into this is now a, now your thing.
am:So I told the story on, on, on, on Wednesday as well, on the podcast, I had that exact same experience, Kylie. And I got like, you know, it's like, If you get born, if you're like 200 years ago, and you get born big, like just genetically, you know, by the time you're 14, you're 6'4 and you don't do anything but you just put on muscle, like you have a certain physical capability. And if people tell you that, yeah, you got born with that physical capability, and you should lead with that, right? You should be a warrior. You should be a, you should take over the community. You should, right? pretty dysfunctional. As opposed to you have access to that and now you got to decide how you want to use it. Well, in the era I got born into and that we still get, you know, some going on, it's not, you got born physical, you got born smart, quote unquote. So I got tagged early on as really smart. Like that whole gifted kind of label, right? They made me take IQ tests, the whole deal. Put me in the math classes and there was, I can remember it so vividly and it was done with such like positivity. A, uh, seventh grade teacher gave me the name human computer. The computer, I've heard you use that before. And, and, but she like, you thought she was like supporting this great thing. This capability. I have, I was taking calculus classes in junior high school. Like, you know, like, like a pre calc in junior high school, uh, finished calculus, like freshman year of high school. So they did all my college calc, right? It's great. Human computer. Like she thinks she's acknowledging something great. And I was miserable.
Yeah.
am:Because, like, what I wanted, when I had time, like, I'm reading literature. I'm watching as many movies as I can. I'm reading poetry. I'm like, you know, wondering where the philosophy books are once I understand what philosophy is, right? But everything around me is like this, this, this. And it was for me, I had a scholarship in physics. Uh, it, uh, yeah, physics at Rensselaer coming out of college. And like, that was supposed to be my life. And I had a literal freak out panic breakdown after high school graduation. And I called them and said, I'm not coming. Thank you for the scholarship. My immigrant parents totally lost their shit. They're paying for you to go there! And you cancel it! You know, I, I, you know, you guys thought, it was like, what? And I went off and studied, you know, Chinese philosophy, actually, Stu went off and studied Chinese philosophy and world music. Because that was Stu. That was a young kid. But, but the exact same series, like this thing of people, everybody doing it out of good intentions, out of a desire for me to be successful. All nobody trying to oppress me.
And
am:I was horribly miserable because like, because I'm good at it, that's what I have to do. Even though I have no juice for it, that's what life is going to be. It was like, it's horrible. It's horrible. Horrible, horrible.
Yeah.
am:But we do that to people, you know, so it's like you're gifted, you're just, that's, you know, that's what you should do.
Kyley:That's why, I mean, that's why I like the way you do projects. It's like, cool, you, you are, you are coding, but you're doing this. Like coding is, it's a paintbrush. It's a, it's a whatever. Make the thing you care about, the thing that matters to you. That's, that's closer to who you are, who you're going to be than the skills that we're teaching you in this place and time.
Kay Pinky:I'm thinking out loud like that. Our students, when they're working on projects, especially a team project, we say go pick up roles and, and they come up back and they say, Oh, I'm the, I'm the CEO or whatever. I'm the, I'm the owner or like, I'm the product project manager. And these are names already created out there. So they look, they look up these roles and these are, these are not their name. Yeah. And you can claim it as theirs. These are not the names. But when you were introducing Scott, you said organizational. I love that. I love that. Um, Picture in a scenario. I know you gave it to Scott, but I'm picturing a scenario where Scott comes in. I forgot what the previous rule was called. Um, media, whatever. Let's just say something professional media manager or something. And then you, this is a me picture in a scenario where you give it to Scott and Scott says, are you hired? You're our new media manager. And Scott says, all right, respectfully, I have one last request. I would love for you to call me the organization. That speaks to several level of confidence. Of you claiming your name right there, like, I think every manager, every CEO would, even if they don't approve it, would just be fascinated and go like, Hmm, that's really interesting the fact that you could make that claim on the day you're getting an offer. You know, you're putting your job on the line to say what, you know, you're trying to do. I think that's a certain level of confidence. And that's like a, an example of someone claiming a name right there.
Kyley:It's
Kay Pinky:like I meet a manager, great, but I see myself as an organization, I started telling If it works, we do as a company. Let's work out something. I don't like this media manager thing.
am:So this, this, this gets at the, the kind of, for me, the core kind of dysfunction of, of, of what we've done to work and, and organization, right? Media manager is a machine part name, right? It's a name, but it's a machine part name. It connects to the transactions that you're accountable for. And by implication, the performance standards that will allow you to keep that name. Right. Something like organizational storyteller points you a value. This is the value you provide that you generate. Right. And I think names like even personal names, you know, um, one of the, I think, baggages I had around Al, even though I genuinely, like I'm cool with that name. I'm right. But Al was smart. Like that, that, that, that's in kind of just, just interwoven. Right. And when I think about other fish and the people who call me that, what that really is. I'll push as a good kid, you know, neither of those things is bad, but they're interwoven with those names. And so to a certain degree, I have to be pay attention that when I'm out, I'm not a machine part and I'm going to be smart, you know what I mean? And so we do this to people. We do it like job titles, as you're pointing out. But I think, I think people's names, they're actually like John can become a machine part thing. Like this is your role in the family. This is your role in the company. It's your role in our friend group. John is this, this is the machine part that you are in this collective and you're not allowed to be anything else.
Kyley:If you think of traditional, like European names, Smith, Fletcher, they were perfect. What did you do? I made arrows. My family makes
am:arrows. Yeah. Yeah. That's what the naming and really
Kyley:first names didn't come about until serfdom kind of disappeared and people started traveling from town to town where now you aren't. Fletcher. You have to have another name attached to the Fletcher.
Kay Pinky:Is Smith connected to like, Oh, yeah,
Kyley:I
Kay Pinky:was just about to ask that. Yeah.
Kyley:Yeah.
Yeah.
am:You got to, you know, where, where, you know, where, where, where the, where the term I just, I saw, uh, I saw Barbie this past week. Um, it's great. It's great. It's um, the, uh, Mrs. It's like Mr. Mrs. You know, it misses. Where that came from? Oh, I used to know. It's
Kyley:horrible. It's horrifying. I mean, I know it's like an ownership. Yeah. It's
am:Mr. apostrophe S. Owned by Mr. Owned by Mr. It's literally what it was. So if you're Mrs. Johnson, it's Mr. Johnson. This is Mr. Johnson's property as abbreviated to Mrs. Is that crazy? And miss, you weren't owned yet. You weren't, you weren't part of some, yeah.
Kay Pinky:You missed a mark.
am:Yeah, you were, you know, you're pre, you're still on the market, you know.
Kyley:Yeah.
am:You still get. Unclaimed territory.
Kyley:Unclaimed,
am:unclaimed property. Yeah. You know, waiting for, for some man to claim you, right? You have been missed. My, my daughter, God bless her, my daughter, you know, she's her own person in a million ways, but she and I have some great DNA overlap, you know, psychologically. She got into a fight in high school. Like, it wasn't like it, you know. She's up in this conversation among her friends, you know, like, boys, girls, you know, mixed group, and it really, you know, she's in theater, and so she had this big group of really tight gang, you know. And there were like seven or eight of them that were, like, tight within that type of ring. And so, you know, in high school, have lunch together, you know, whatever. And this one day at lunch, uh, this thing of naming comes up. Um, cause somebody's, like, older sibling is getting married or something, right? And this conversation about keeping your last name when you get married for the girls like keeping my last name to get married and you know, a couple of the girls were like, yeah, I'm gonna keep my last name. So I was like, I am absolutely keeping my last name when I get married. And a couple of boys like, I mean, you could see the value, but that wasn't the hard part. Sarah doubling down as, as we want to do. So, and actually when I have kids, those kids are going to have my last name, not the father's. And one of her friends literally said, well, male friends, who's, you know, nice guy, but. Little, you know, grew up in a box. Um, says to her, I don't think that's legal. And she apparently lied. I wasn't there. She told me this story after a fact. Right. And she apparently like lost it with him. Like, because again, for her name, it's like, I gave birth to this human. It's getting my last name.
Excellent.
am:Not his.
Wow.
am:And so like that's naming a girl like I'm going to name, but now what does that do to the kid, right? Because now, now like it's empowering for her. Like I get to name, because it is like, you know, the, the, the, what, what's all, you know, Saul Williams applying to, you know, let your kids name yourself, claim yourself in the context of that in the name you create the thing. Right. And so for her, it is empowering of like, no, I will name. Right. But then for the kid, it becomes, you know, it's still the same quandary down the road. Like, did I name,
you know,
am:You can't get away from that one. I think that's part of the, the kind of, you know, individuation process is claiming your name and it could be the exact same name, but now it's, I claim it. I named myself this, right? So, you know, you keep Muhammad, but it's like now, no, now I claim this name.
Kay Pinky:Versus it was given to me. If you think about it, it's the male's name that's really passed on and the female's name is going away.
am:It's gone, yeah.
Kay Pinky:So it's like, it's the
Mo:family giving away their daughter type of thing? It's like, it's usually selling. It's like a butter. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kay Pinky:Here's some cows. Yeah, yeah. There's gold. There's cows. Yep. There's a list they give you Mo Yeah. The, so Ghana, I know about it. Ghana, that's a tradition. Like you're gonna get married. The father of the woman Uhhuh gives you a list of things mm-hmm To provide. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but my, my, uh, my father-in-law, he actually didn't do that. You know, he, he actually doesn't believe in that. So he wrote a, a, a, he, he wrote a pa, he took a paper and wrote a Bible quotation and then put it in an envelope. And, um, said I should give it to my people because that's how it's done. They gave it to me to give it to my, I don't open it and I gave it to my, but he kind of told me ahead of time. So I knew it and then they opened it and I was like, what is this? What was the verse? Do
am:you
Kay Pinky:remember the verse is talking about, uh, I can look it up, but the verse is talking about, you can't put a price on my daughter. And so I'm giving my daughter away. That's some gangster shit. Yeah. It's like my daughter is worth more than the list I'm going to make you. No matter how expensive, you know, it is. And he told me, he explained to me why he did that. Um, it's like, there it is. One Bible quotation. Boom. In an envelope. And I knew it. And I just gave it to them, dude. And they were like, no, you're supposed to give us something to give them. It's tradition. And then he, you know, they fought a little bit. It was like, Nope, I'm not doing anything. It's my daughter. I'm giving my daughter away. I'm not putting a price on her.
am:Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom. This is A. M. Bott, and you know, conversation, real human conversation never actually ends, but episodes of podcasts need to. So we're going to end here. You can connect with me on Instagram and TikTok at, at Absurd Wisdom. You can find DAE on Instagram at dae. community or online at mydae. org. Absurd Wisdom is produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE, and we'll be back with more Conversation Beyond Understanding next Thursday.
