All Books Aloud

What is it about romance?

• Elizabeth Brookbank & Martha Brookbank • Season 1 • Episode 11

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Romance novels generate over $1.44 billion (with a 'b!') in revenue and are highest-earning, biggest, and fastest growing genre of fiction in the book industry. And yet, if you're a romance reader, you've probably had to defend it to someone at some point or maybe you've even been embarrassed of your reading. Why are these books that so many read still so fraught?

We talk about our personal experiences with reading romance, the history of the genre, and discuss questions like, what defines romance today? Do men write romance? Is romance, even in its modern form, still limiting women? Or is it just harmless entertainment? Join us as we tackle a topic we've been circling around since we started the podcast.
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Books we're reading in this episode: 

Elements of Cadence duology by Rebecca Ross (A River Enchanted; A Fire Endless)
Flying Solo by Linda Holmes
Return of the King by J.R.R. Tolkien
The League of Gentlewoman Witches by India Holton (Dangerous Damsels series)
Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Berkeman
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Sources (links provided when available and citations shortened to fit) listed in the order they appear in the episode: 

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Intro and outro music: "The Chase," by Aves.

Do you have thoughts, questions, or ideas for future episodes? Email us at allbooksaloudpod@gmail.com. And if you want to learn more about the podcast, visit our website at allbooksaloudpod.com.

If you liked this episode, please consider leaving us a review to help us reach more listeners.

And if you'd like to see more bookish content from Martha & Elizabeth, follow us on Instagram and TikTok @allbooksaloudpod.

Read on!

[All Books Aloud intro and theme music]

Martha: Hey Liz, how are you?

Elizabeth: Hi, Martha. I am doing well. Happy Valentine's Day.

Martha: Yeah, happy Valentine's Day.

Elizabeth: So what are you reading right now?

Martha: I just finished the Elements of Cadence duology by Rebecca Ross.

Elizabeth: Mm

Martha: I loved it even more than [00:01:00] her Divine Rivals series. The first book is called A River Enchanted and the second book is called A Fire Endless. And It's one of those that I feel like has a little bit of every story doorway, and I take back what I said about if it has every story doorway, it's probably not that good because it was a perfect read for me.

I love these books so much.. The writing style is beautiful. The setting is a fictional Scottish isle called Cadence. There's a mystery element to it, which keeps the story moving along. And you'll absolutely fall in love with the characters as well, and it's a fantasy So there's a spirit realm and the spirits are connected to all of the elements hence elements of cadence

Elizabeth: hmm. Mm hmm.

Martha: wind spirits earth [00:02:00] fire, etc, and There's also objects that are imbued with magic. , for example, one of the characters weaves enchanted plaids, and whoever wears the plaid is protected. There's a Rivals to Lovers plot that is a 10 out of 10 for me. Absolutely no notes. I shared a quote on Instagram when I was reading it that Just gutted me. I'll read it. It says from your life came mine I would not exist if you had been born in the east I am but a verse inspired by your chorus and I will follow you until the end When the aisle takes my bones and my name is nothing more than a remembrance on a headstone next to yours.

Elizabeth: Oh my god, that's so romantic

Martha: I know and it's just so funny because I was looking up, some details about it on Goodreads and I was scrolling down and I came across this one and a half star review and [00:03:00] it says, whoever recommended this book to me, please don't recommend any books ever again. And it just made me laugh because here I am gushing about how much I loved it and it's a perfect read for me and someone else absolutely did not enjoy it, you

Elizabeth: Yeah, always although I do think people who take the time to write one star reviews, especially of books, I feel like it always says much more about them than it actually does about the book. Definitely no two readers read the same book, and they could hate a book, and you could love a book for sure.

But do you know what I mean? The people who take the time to be like, one star, I hated this book. There's always something else going on.

Martha: Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. Mm

Elizabeth: It's funny that you mentioned that it, , has all the reading doorways, because we did say that maybe that means it's not a good book, but we also said, remember, that maybe that means it's like the best book that's ever written, maybe that's the case here.

Martha: That's the case for me. Anyway, my subjective opinion [00:04:00] of it, but if you're into Cozy adult fantasy. Check that out if it sounds like something you're into. And I do think I had a little bit of a hangover, which is why I haven't just started something else yet, so that's kind of where I'm at. What about you? What are you reading?

Elizabeth: It sounds like based on how much you loved it, I actually was wondering while you were talking if you had a booking over from it. Pursuant to our.

most recent episode. I actually have four books on the go right now

Martha: Wow.

Elizabeth: after our reading goals episode where we talked about me maybe choosing a goal that wasn't about the total number of books that I read in the year

since that has been so problematic for me, I will just come clean and say I did still set a numeric reading goal on Goodreads. Because I use Goodreads to track my reading, and it's there and I couldn't not do it. But,[00:05:00] I set it basically only a couple books higher than what I read this year. My hope with that is that it will motivate me because it's a little bit more than I read this year, but it's not at all unrealistic because I read that much this year.

But, my main reading goal for the year, I decided, after we talked about it I was thinking about what I said about my time and how I prioritize my time and how if I wanted to read 52 books in a year, I would have to give up X, Y, and Z. So I don't want to do that, but I started thinking about, are there pockets of time that I could change how I'm spending them?

And so I decided that one of my goals slash resolutions is that. At least two or three, I gave myself a range, two or three nights a week, instead of watching TV, I'm gonna read a nonfiction book, the reason I chose nonfiction books is because I also always have a fiction book going that I read in bed, and so I didn't want to have four [00:06:00] fiction books going at the same time because that felt like a little much.

So basically my goal is that I'm going to read instead of watching TV a few nights a week, not every night, I tried not to make it too unrealistic, and that I'm going to try to have it be a different book then. Books that I'm already reading, although I also gave myself the latitude that if I get really into a book and I just want to read it every second of the day, then I can also spend that time reading 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: So because of that, I have four books going right now. So I have, the fiction book that I'm reading at night before I go to bed, which is called Flying Solo by Linda Holmes. And it is definitely women's fiction versus romance, which we will talk about as we get into our topic. Today, because I think it's actually a great example of the difference between the two.

It is about a woman named Laurie who is 39 facing turning 40 and has just called off her [00:07:00] wedding, , a few weeks before it was gonna happen. And is grappling with, Deciding not to get married to that specific person, but also realizing that maybe she doesn't actually want to get married at all.

And in the midst of that crisis in her life, her great aunt dies, who she was really close to, and who never married, and who just was single and lived in this house in her hometown in Maine for her whole 93 years. And she goes to her house and is the one to clean it out because she was the closest with her because she doesn't have, a husband or kids that she left behind.

 The story sort of unfolds from there. And it was, it was a really beautiful story. It was definitely a heavier story than I would say a lot of romances are. There is a love interest in it, but that's definitely not the main part of the story. And she finds out a lot about her aunt. She finds this wooden duck hidden away , in a hope chest that leads her on this journey to find out about her great aunt.

And it was really interesting. I loved it. I just finished it last night and so I haven't [00:08:00] started anything new.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: author Linda Holmes, you may have heard her on NPR if you're an NPR listener, she is really great. She wrote the book Evvie Drake Starts Over.

That was her debut novel, which I read a couple years ago and was one of my favorite reads that year. And Flying Solo actually takes place in the same universe as Evvie Drake. It's not a sequel, but they are from the same town and there's a place in Flying Solo where she mentions Evie and the retired New York Yankees.

baseball pitcher that is her fiance, which is what happens in Evvie Drake Starts Over. So that's kind of cute.

Martha: Cute.

Yeah, 

Elizabeth: it was good. I would recommend it. I didn't love it as much as I loved Evvie Drake, but I think that that's because It was just a little bit heavier. It spoke to me more directly as, a woman who's in my early 40s.

And I decided to get married. I got married when I was 39. But I definitely remember being 39 and thinking about getting married and being like, Oh my [00:09:00] God, I am almost 40 and I haven't gotten married. , how is this going to go? I'm going to get married. This is 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: do when they're a lot younger.

 And so, that part really spoke to me. So I did really like it. It wasn't a love love like Evvie Drake. And then Alex and I are still reading Return of the King we're about a third of the way through. And I just started listening to the second book in the Dangerous Damsels series, the first of which was the Wisteria Society of

Scoundrels. That I waxed lyrical about last time,

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: that I loved so much. And the second one is called The League of gentlewoman Witches. And it seems so far like it is similar to the Evie Dunmore series where Again, it's all in the same universe, but with this, it's more connected in the sense that it's about the same characters, and it shifts who the main character [00:10:00] is.

So. 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: The main character in the first one is not the main character in the second one, but she's still in it. And all the same characters are in it. It just shifts its focus. So that seems like what this series is going to be, which I really loved in the Evie Dunmore, Bringing Down the Duke series.

So I just started listening to that. And then my fourth book, that I'm reading during the time that I'm not watching TV a few times a week is called 4, 000 Weeks Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Berkman. And,

Martha: more books?

Elizabeth: kind of, but it's not actually about time 

Martha: I'm kidding. 

Elizabeth: It's basically like you have 4, 000 weeks in your life. And when you think about it like that, it seems brutally short and 

small, to think that you only have 4, 000 weeks.

It does to me anyway. And it did to the author, which is why he wrote the book. And so it's about a lot of the similar themes that we've talked about on this podcast, you [00:11:00] have to accept that you're never going to get everything done, and so what do you want to do with

your one wild and precious life, as Mary Oliver says, and that involves deciding not to do a lot of things, and getting right with that is something you need to do if you want to be happy, and there's a lot more to it.

Obviously it's a book length thing, it's not just that point, but it's interesting, I would describe it as philosophy lite, because he does go into a lot of classical thinkers that have thought about this concept of what do we do with our lives, and we're mortal, and how do we deal with that as humans.

 So I've been reading that instead of watching TV. Some of the nights, not all of the nights I still watch TV, because I like it.

Martha: Yeah, of course. Which is the whole point of that book, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Martha: Do what you enjoy.

Elizabeth: Right. 

Martha: you only have 4, 000 weeks to do it.

Elizabeth: Right. 

I think I've said before that I like a good existential crisis once in a while, that's just like part of my personality. 

So 

Martha: like you, you'll be going along just [00:12:00] fine and then all of a sudden like, Oh, wait,

Elizabeth: I'm mortal. 

Martha: crisis.

Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. That's just one of my, I was gonna say one of my red flags, but I think that it's probably more of a beige flag because it just affects me. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Martha: So to mark this Valentine's Day , we decided we wanted to talk about romance. novels or romance as a genre. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, and we've talked about romance. It's as a genre in some of the other episodes. So if you've listened to , the genre's episode, for instance, we did talk about it a little bit, but it always has felt like there's so much to unpack here that it should have its own episode.

 And what better day to do at the Valentine's Day, although I will say as a little bit of a disclaimer, it's not going to be a very romantic episode. If you're looking for a lovey dovey feel good episode, [00:13:00] maybe wait to listen until tomorrow.

But definitely come back and listen because there's a lot of good things to 

Martha: Yeah, that's a good call.

Elizabeth: so , I did do a lot of research and I have a lot of thoughts about this that were pre existing, but I would like to start out by just talking about romance for us as readers, because we both read romance, right?

I haven't always, which I've shared before, but just how we came to romance, our own thoughts, expectations, maybe stereotypes, and then how we have interacted with other people around it. Because I feel like that's a big part of being a romance reader, is negotiating that with yourself and with other people sometimes.

Martha: Mm hmm.

 I don't remember exactly how I got started reading romance, whether it was a recommendation from you or from other friends. I don't really remember what was my first romance novel, but I definitely have this sense that I had to [00:14:00] wait for someone to give me permission to read it. it probably has to do with our upbringing and feeling like romance and sex and anything like that was, you know, I was a little repressed child. You know what I mean? I don't,

Martha: I'm not doing a very good job explaining it, but I definitely have a sense that It wasn't something that I just discovered on my own.

Someone definitely recommended a romance novel to me first, and that's how I broke into the genre.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think that that is a really key point to it, actually, and one that I hadn't thought about with my own

journey. I don't know, what do you, people always say journey to this, journey to that. It wasn't a journey, but with my own approaching of romance, I never considered the fact that, yeah, we grew up in a very religious, Family and situation, and [00:15:00] that stuff was taboo, that was off limits, sex was off limits, we weren't allowed to watch it in movies.

, I don't actually ever remember being specifically limited in what I read, but I just never tried to read stuff like that, I just knew that I wasn't allowed to do 

Martha: Yeah,

we were self governing, because we're, we are rule followers

and there were rules set upon us and we respected those.

Elizabeth: Yeah, so that is actually really interesting. I wonder if that is part of the reason why I didn't come to it until later.

Martha: I actually love the visual of someone going on a journey to read romance novels because I actually do kind of think that this is true for probably a lot of people

and there could be this little meandering path that kind of gets you there and gives you the permission and then all hell breaks loose.

Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah. That is okay. [00:16:00] You're right. I 

Martha: Embrace the journey. 

Elizabeth: embrace it that as a journey. Because the part of my journey that I have thought about before, and that I have talked about on the podcast before, is that I never used to allow myself to read romance. Maybe part of it was that internal repression from when I was growing up, but I wasn't consciously aware of that.

But what I was consciously aware of was, as I've said before, I just took myself way too seriously and thought that reading books like romance novels was a waste of my time, was a guilty pleasure, was blah, blah, blah. I'm a little loathe to admit that now, as a librarian and as someone who , loves these books, and as a feminist, because as we're going to talk about, I think that, all of that is tied up in, in romance and in the fact that mainly women read romance, and it's mainly created by women.

 But it's the case. So I have to be honest about it. , And the first romance novel that I read, I do remember what it was, because it [00:17:00] was in Nancy Pearl's one of her Reader's Advisory classes that I took when I was in library school. 

Elizabeth: I think that That the year I took this class would have been my second year. So I think it was 2012. So it was about 12 years ago. And As I think I have said before in that class She required us to read At least one book from a list of genres that she gave us from all of the main genres that you would encounter if you were working in a library and were doing reader's advisory, mainly a public library as we talked about on the episode about do young people read, and I was describing the difference between public librarianship and academic librarianship.

So her focus was very much on if you become a public librarian and you're doing a reader's advisory, even if you don't personally read or prefer these various genres, you have to be familiar with them. And so you have to read at least one book from these genres and try to open your mind to these things that you maybe think you don't like or that you haven't experienced before.[00:18:00] 

And so romance was definitely one of those for me because it's not something that I normally would choose to read. And the book that I read, she gave us a list of romances. That we could read. Of all of the different genres, there were lists that we could choose from so that we wouldn't have to find it ourselves if we didn't want to.

And the one that I read, for whatever reason, is called My Lord and Spy Master. By Joanna Bourne. Uh, I couldn't tell you why this is the one that I chose. I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you Martha the Link to it on Goodreads, 

so that, 

Martha: like an old school bodice ripper, just based on the title.

Elizabeth: yeah, so that is why I was laughing about, I don't know why this is what I chose to read. So

it is what I would describe as an old school bodice ripper now being a romance reader, except that it's not actually terribly old school. I would say that this writer [00:19:00] is. It's representative of, the current version of A Bodice Ripper, right? , , it's not super old school.

It was written in 2008. The heroine is very independent. She's a pickpocket and, it is obviously written in the 21st century, so I'm not going to say that it is. What we think of , as a bodice ripper being like very, very old fashioned.

But you can look at the cover and for listeners, I'll describe the cover. It is a woman with her back to you, the viewer, but looking to the side so you can see her in profile. She's wearing a dress, but it's pulled all the way down to her mid arm and is exposing her back and arm.

And there's a ship in the distance. And then there is a hand it's a man's hand, 

Martha: large hand. 

Elizabeth: large man's hand, manly hand, coming around and touching her bare back. And so it's this very, and the font is [00:20:00] very, scroll y. It is obviously meant to visually say to the reader, I am an updated version of that old school bodice ripper. The visual cues of that are there. And, I said that I have no idea why I chose this one, but I will tell you actually, now that I'm talking about it, I chose it because I just didn't know that romance was anything other than this.

This is what romance was to me. And I was like, well, I mean, whatever.

 This is as good as any other one, right? , this is what romance is. It also is the second in a series. , I didn't even start with the first one in the series. And I can't remember if I noticed that or not. It is pretty spicy. The love scenes from what I recall are pretty explicit.

 I wouldn't say it's , the spiciest that I've ever read. I've read spicier now. But yeah, it was definitely, a jump into the deep end that actually ultimately this isn't the type of romance that I like to read and so it probably wasn't a good first exposure 

Martha: Mm hmm, but you [00:21:00] obviously kept reading romance after that.

Elizabeth: well, not in a continuous way.

No, I would say I read that for class and Let me think about when the next time is that I read a romance novel. It very much was in the category of , okay, box checked. I've read a romance novel now. I know what they're like. I can talk to people about them. 

 I just figured okay, I get that

Martha: hmm. You read one romance novel and you felt confident that you could talk to people 

about them. 

Elizabeth: this is relevant though, because 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: that , this is a lot of, The misunderstandings that a lot of people have, this is where the misunderstanding of romance as a genre comes from for a lot of people, is that you have a stereotype of what romance is, which is very much based on an early 20th century model of what romance was, and you have in your head that that's what it is, and if you don't read it and you're not in that [00:22:00] community, then you're You wouldn't know that that's not what it is anymore.

 So , I didn't read a romance again.

Elizabeth: I'm going through my good reads to see when the next time was that I read a romance.

Martha: so because We are friends on Goodreads. The first thing that pops up on the reviews of that book is your review from 2012.

Elizabeth: Oh, oh. Did I review it 

Martha: Yeah, 

Elizabeth: Oh my God. I forgot that. Oh God. I'm terrified. Go ahead.

Martha: So you gave it two stars. You

said this, 

Elizabeth: not like it.

Martha: you said, well, I don't know, you

said this book was fun to read, but wasn't rewarding beyond that. Not what I generally read, but I can definitely see why it would appeal. So I feel like there's kind of a mixed signal in there, you liked it, but you didn't really want to fully commit to because , you didn't feel like it had any literary value, it sounds

Elizabeth: Yeah, like it didn't fit in with [00:23:00] my

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: identity as a reader. I also will say that I very much hear in that, that I'm being diplomatic.

Martha: Ah, okay. I could see that.

Elizabeth: Like I can see why you would like this.

Martha: Two stars, but you don't want to piss anyone off.

Elizabeth: Yeah. It's funny because we talked about on the, do you finish every book that you start episode about how I usually don't give. Books less than three stars because I stopped reading them if they're less 

than three stars, but that I couldn't stop reading it because I was reading it for class.

So, I'm going to stop doing this, excavation of my own reading life, but it was only within the last, few years, I would say, that I really have embraced reading romances that were, , fully, this is a romance, I'm reading it because I want the romance part of it. It honestly might have been the pandemic that just, like, I was looking for things that made me feel good.

Um,

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: sort of[00:24:00] 

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: good. So yeah, it's been a circuitous path for me, I would say.

Martha: Mm hmm. Like an evolution.

Elizabeth: Yeah. What about other people? Have you ever had to deal with interactions with other people about the fact that you're reading romance? Hmm.

Martha: not, not many. Because we've talked about this a little bit. I've outed myself with this podcast as a reader, but I don't think that people really knew for a long time that I was a big reader. So there's that. And then there's also, You know, there's a lot of TikToks and reels about this when people will be like, what are you reading?

And you're like fantasy because you don't want to admit that it's a romance novel, or a romantasy. There have been a few instances where I will tell people that I'm reading a romance and they'll kind of go like, [00:25:00] oh, recently I can think of an experience in my book club that I'm part of. The way we run the book club is we kind of elect the genre first. So we pick a genre for a month, and then we all will think about what books within that genre we want to nominate. And then the next time we come together, we'll vote on a book. And so the first book club that I went to, we were picking a genre for February, and I recommended a romance. And they were all kind of like, Oh, we've never done romance. We don't read romance. I was the only romance reader in the room.

And they weren't because they're all very bookish people. They weren't judging me for it. But it was almost like a light bulb moment for me because From my point of view, I'm like, everyone reads romance.

, these are super popular books, right? I'm not the only one reading it. Everyone reads these. But of course, that's not true. Not [00:26:00] everyone does read it. So I was caught off guard that I was the only romance reader in the room. But they were all really intrigued. And they were excited about the potential for someone to recommend a really good romance, so they didn't have to muddle through to find a good one, you know?

Elizabeth: Hmm.

Martha: So, after that book club, one of the members was like, Hey, I want to read romance, give me some romance recommendations. even aside from the pick we were doing for February. So I sent her a bunch and she flew through them all and loved them. And so now she's a romance reader, which I think is great.

Elizabeth: That is great. You started her on her journey.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: She's fully on a journey now. That is really interesting because not everyone does read romance, obviously, but a lot of people do. It is by far the most popular and, biggest fiction genre for sure.[00:27:00] So that is really interesting that in a group like that there weren't, there wasn't anyone who

Martha: Or maybe they weren't willing to out themselves.

Elizabeth: maybe they weren't willing to say. Yeah, I think that that is, that is what I was driving at with this question because when I was reading My Lord and Spymaster in 2012, my first romance novel, I definitely remember feeling embarrassed to read it in public. I wouldn't read it on the bus.

 A couple of people in the class talked about how they got their romance novel on their e reader so that people couldn't see what they were reading. And that's just the way that we talked about reading these books and we didn't talk about sci fi like that. We didn't talk about fantasy like that.

We didn't talk about murder mysteries. It was just romance and it's like, what is

that about? 

What's going on there? 

And you know, I think that part of it certainly is that it is about sex, 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: Like we're a Puritan society, America is, people forget about that.

My [00:28:00] British husband always reminds me how uptight we all are because we have these Puritan roots and, , the people who were left in England were all the people who weren't like that. 

So there are actually British people have that reputation of being uptight, But Americans when it comes to things like sex and drinking and things like that are way more uptight than British people are.

 So there is that element to it I think, but I very much also think that there is a gender element to it. Because it is something that mostly women read and at this point mostly women create. So before we get too into that, let's talk a little bit about the history, because I think that the history of romance as a genre can inform the way that we talk about it now and the way we think about it.

Elizabeth: I went back to this book that I used in a class that I taught actually several years ago for my university. An honors class about the history of the book, basically, and it's this textbook that we use called Books a [00:29:00] Living History, and there's a chapter in it on romance novels, as a genre, and it's very U.

S. focused, , because romance novels of some description, started 1800s as a Did all novels the form of the novel as we know it didn't predate that by very much

and was always Since it's inception. Since it's birth on this earth. It was always derided as being lowbrow as being popular meant as an insult right because Being popular and for the people, especially in England at that time, was not a compliment.

 Being for women, which was also, said as an insult. So that was always the case. But then, fast forward a little bit to what we would recognize as a romance novel. You have to go to basically the early 20th century, like 1920s, 30s times, is [00:30:00] when Mills and Boon was founded. Which was a publishing house founded by two men, two brothers, and they were a general publisher for the beginning of their, business.

But after the Great Depression, which they narrowly survived, they made this decision to start specializing in romantic fiction, aimed at women readers. And the reason that they made this decision, it was a business decision, because they saw a niche that wasn't being served, in the US, at least.

. And so they decided, okay, we're going to brand our publishing house as The Romance Publishing House, and that was the brand. The brand wasn't the authors. They would basically hire women, mostly, to write the books to a formula. And , the thing that was recognizable was not the authors.

It was, this is a Mills and Boon book. And so from a Mills and Boon book, I know what to expect from this romance novel. The other thing we have to remember that has to do with gender is [00:31:00] that it was actually kind of scandalous for women to be Working as authors, right? That's why So many women authors published under a pseudonym like the Brontes published under what sounded like male pseudonyms For a long time.

No one knew who wrote Jane Austen's book she said that they were written by a lady, but she didn't name herself. Women weren't supposed to be working. It was scandalous that they would be writing and 

making a living from it. That's why George Eliot published as George Eliot, blah, blah, blah.

So in the early 20th century, there was, oh, we were getting away from that a little bit, but like the 1960s were still very far away.

They were hiring women that needed work to write these books, but, They just churned them out. And so they were publishing a ton of these books.

And so Mills and Boon became synonymous with, in this country at least, what we think of as the romance novel. And these books, like I said, were written to a formula. They were always told from the heroine's perspective. They were always heterosexual, obviously. A heterosexual, heteronormative story. [00:32:00] The trajectory of the story was always domesticity,

marriage, having children was the end goal. If the heroine was single at the beginning, she would be married by the end or engaged. If she was already married, then maybe there was a reconciliation arc between the married couple and they would be happy at the end. So that was the formula.

 That's what Mills and Boon books were.. And that was the case up until about the 1960s. And then in the 1960s, culture started to 

change a lot. And so the book started to shift in turn. If you saw the Barbie movie, I feel like the trajectory of romance novels was kind of similar to the Barbie movie in the sense that.

It was both shaping and reacting to culture at the same 

Martha: Mm 

Elizabeth: So some of the heroines, in the romance novel started to have careers. Usually they were a very woman coded career, like a nurse or a teacher, . But they started to be a little bit more independent. [00:33:00] Sometimes the settings were in other countries, exotic other countries, because the American public was traveling more, air travel started to be a thing.

 And there also was some competition at that point other, publishers started to realize, oh, we should publish these books that women are buying in droves.

Elizabeth: And so there started to be competition from other publishers that were, I was going to say more explicit, but none of these books were explicit

Martha: Right.

Elizabeth: to what we think of as explicit, right?

But that's 

Martha: For the 

Elizabeth: get, for the time, and so that's where we get the bodice ripper. So Mills and Boon started to feel some competition from these bodice rippers were, had more sort of overt eroticism. so they relaxed a little bit and started to also include that in their , much more popular brand.

This is also the time period that we get the term alpha male or alpha as a romance hero and alpha man. Because [00:34:00] that again was all of the heroes were that. And that was much more stagnant even than the heroines right the heroines started to change and get careers and stuff but the, but the heroes did not change like they were alpha heroes.

There were no cinnamon rolls, there were no beta heroes at this point, the alpha man was conventionally handsome, he was physically strong, he was rich, and also generous. You know,

Martha: Yeah, that's funny. I mean,

very much in the same way that Ken is always just Ken and Barbie has all these careers and all these life paths and Ken is just Ken.

Elizabeth: I'm just 10. Yes, exactly. I actually didn't think of that until, just as I was writing up these notes, but it actually, there is a very strong connection with the Barbie movie here. , so there was no cursing, there was no divorce, it was still very pretty tame, for a long time in the sixties and seventies.

[00:35:00] And up until I, I don't. I don't have as much of a, of a grounding in the history, after the point at which this textbook leaves off, I read a little bit, but it seems to me like around the late 1990s, early 2000s, romance started to become more what we would recognize it as now. So for a really long time, the majority of the 20th century, that's what romance was.

It was. It's very conventional. It very much fit into the patriarchal structure of society. It was very heteronormative. So yes, it was something that women were reading. And yes, it was evolving with the time, but only to a certain extent. So that is what romance novels means to a lot of people.

And, to older people, yes, for sure, but also, to people like me who maybe, , our mom didn't read romance novels, [00:36:00] and so I never did, and so, 

, it was that sort of taboo, and so you think of it as only, that bodice ripper, traditional idea.

Martha: When in reality, it sounds like It's been evolving this whole time. It's never stopped and just been one thing, , even thinking about what romance novels are now compared to what they were in the 90s, , it's just, it's constantly evolving. Yes, , the conventions are there, but within that, the stories are changing because

society is changing.

Elizabeth: right, absolutely. But I guess what I'm getting at is, , It is certainly changing, and you know that if you're in that community, if you read romance, but I think that there's something that stops people from doing that sometimes,

or that makes them feel hesitant, or feel embarrassed, or have to be invited in given permission, and I feel like that piece is related to [00:37:00] the way that romance novels entered the public consciousness as this Mills and Boon 

or Bodice Ripper sort of thing.

 I remember, right after the 2016 election, I remember that there was this uproar about Hillary Clinton making a comment that sort of dismissed romance novels 

in an interview. And it was a comment that was sort of in a larger context that of course people didn't engage with, but she said, quote, the whole romance novel industry is about women being grabbed and thrown on a horse and ridden off into the distance.

Martha: hmm,

Elizabeth: There were a lot of romance readers, women, who, , probably supported her in the election, who were really offended by the way that she just dismissed this genre that was really important to them, and that actually is way more than that.

Martha: mm hmm,

Elizabeth: But for me, I hear in that an older woman who [00:38:00] hasn't read a romance novel, maybe ever, or definitely in a really long time.

 And, specifically someone who is an ambitious, outside of the mold feminist woman who doesn't define herself traditionally, the way that romance novels were in the public consciousness when she, was growing up, , let's remember she was born in the early 1950s or late 1940s, 

Martha: mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: , that was like Mills and Boon. the romance novels that she was aware of and so if you don't Read romance and aren't aware of the ways that it has changed. Then that's what you're gonna think romance novels are and I just feel like that is something that people Need to have in mind when they're having these conversations with people or getting annoyed or offended that people are I'm not certainly saying that people shouldn't get offended when people are derisive of romance, because a lot of times they're being derisive of it for reasons that are,, very [00:39:00] sexist.

But there is this idea in the public consciousness of what romance is, that if you're not a romance reader, there's no reason that you would know 

Martha: that it's changed, yeah, yeah. 

Some people are just looking at them at a certain snapshot in time and that's what they relate romance novels to, 

because they don't know better.

Elizabeth: Right. Whereas, I would say. Romance novels today are, so much more than that, , they are incredibly diverse, as you started to point out. There's all different types of people that are represented in romance novels, all different types of relationships, every sexuality, every gender, every type of pairing that you could possibly imagine there's a 

Martha: Mm hmm, 

Elizabeth: for, right?

Martha: mm hmm,

Elizabeth: Um, and there is racial diversity and cultural diversity. I mean, not as much racial diversity and cultural diversity as there should be, certainly as with most parts of our society, 

but it's definitely there. And again, like you said, it's [00:40:00] constantly getting to be more and more to the point where I would say that romance is probably one of the most diverse and most, constantly evolving genres that there is.

Martha: mm hmm,

Elizabeth: , and it's almost like because it started out as the opposite of that,

Martha: mm hmm.

Elizabeth: It's worth noting that that's the case.

And I feel like part of the reason for that is because romance as a genre has been reclaimed by women. And it is mostly women, certainly , there are queer romances of every description, like I said, and there are romances about transgender people and non binary people, for sure.

 But the vast majority of them are cis women who are, in heterosexual relationships. And the genre as a whole has been reclaimed by women, whereas it initially was something that was created for women, but by men,

Martha: Right.

Elizabeth: right? And so that has a very different tone to me than something that is [00:41:00] created by women for women.

And,

Martha: It's like women took this idea like, okay, we see you Mills and Boon. We see what you're doing. But hold our beer because we can do this better because you don't actually know what we want, right?

Elizabeth: yeah,

Martha: Which I

Elizabeth: yeah, yeah, I do too., I do definitely think there is , an element of that to it.

So another thing that I looked at as part of my research for this episode is, there was this open letter that a romance author named Maya Rodale wrote in response to this Hillary Clinton, , quote scandal, which I actually think there was a lot more to her quote than. Then just this response, but since this is what we're talking about, this is what we'll talk about.

 So she wrote this open letter that was basically like, okay, Hillary Clinton, we know that you are busy being the most qualified person to ever run for president, but just FYI, romance novels have changed a lot. And this [00:42:00] was her treatise for like, this is what romance is. 

So I'm just going to read this. It's kind of long, so bear with me. But I think that it's really great, and I think that it is a good description of what we were just saying about why romance is so powerful now.

That it's been reclaimed. So quote, romance novels are for the most part written by women about women for women. This is perhaps the only space where women's voices predominantly shape the narrative about themselves in the world. Romance novels relentlessly declare that a woman is worth it. She is the plot.

The plot does not happen to her. When a woman reads or writes these stories, she's declaring that a woman's journey, experiences, and point of view are interesting, relevant, and important. Romance novels are about love, and they show that real good love doesn't ask you to lose weight, change your hair, get a different job, silence your feelings, or in some way shrink yourself to fit into a box society has labeled desirable.

Romance novels have something to offer [00:43:00] men too. A portrayal of masculinity where men can be strong, brave protectors without demeaning or assaulting other people, and they can talk about their feelings. And that, is what makes them hero material, being able to do both. Romance novels are our self care for millions of women, simply by picking one up, she is refusing, if only for a chapter, her traditional role of caring for others, and in doing so, she declares that she is important.

Romance novels are the space where women always triumph, each and every happily ever after, where the heroine gets the guy or girl and succeeds at whatever challenges the plot has thrown at her, gives hope and inspiration to readers that it is worth fighting for love and the kind of world we want to live in.

Martha: I

love 

that. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I loved it too, which is why I thought it was worth reading. So that's her, I think, pretty optimistic. I think there are parts of it where it's not always the case that the heroine doesn't have to lose weight,

for instance, but certainly [00:44:00] you can find books in the romance genre that fulfill all of these aspirations that she has for it.

And so that's part of the reason why I think that it's so important. And I think that's why we couldn't give up on the idea of doing an episode all about romance, even though we've been talking about it for so long and,, haven't gotten to it. It was, always there in the back of our minds because, yes, it's entertainment, but it does feel like more than that.

Martha: Yeah, what she just was describing, and how she pointed out that it's one of the only spaces where women dominate, It almost illustrates what the world could be if we lived in a matriarchy, or if women ruled the world, right? Like, these are women writing stories for women about the way they think things should be, or could be.

Elizabeth: Mm hmm.

Martha: So, I definitely think it's very meaningful, and there's more to it than meets the eye.

Elizabeth: [00:45:00] Yeah. Yeah. Very much. I agree. And there is something very specific about what it's doing too, right? Like you just said, it's women describing how the world could be. So in that way, , it has that fantasy element to it, but it's not fantasy.

It's not science fiction. It's very much grounded in our contemporary reality.

So, , there's something about that, too. , we're imagining, like you said, the world the way that it could be. We're not imagining the world a way that it will never be, right? Like,

with fairies and, like, some 

Martha: Some is, yeah. 

Elizabeth: But do you know what I'm saying? I feel like there's a difference between that type of story and the type of story where you're like, this is our world, but better.

Martha: Yeah, this is something that is possible versus something that's completely fiction, and both can be a romance novel. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So that is, you know, it's a little grandiose, but I, I feel like that, that to me sums up what romance is today. I think [00:46:00] that there's more that we could talk about. . I grapple with that a little bit still because there are still rules that the romance genre has to follow, 

 the love story is central. The romantic plot is central.

There has to be a happily ever after, or at the very least a happily for now, that you can see the characters moving into a forever future together. Which, is limiting. , it's just a fact. , those two things are limiting.

in terms of what people can imagine. And that's why the book that I was talking about at the beginning that I just finished reading, Flying Solo, that's why I would not call it a romance novel. So spoiler, if you haven't read this book and you want to read it, maybe just fast forward a few little taps of the 30 second button.

But It very much is not a romance novel, I think, because there is a semi happily for now at the end, but basically,, the heroine decides that she doesn't want that.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: She [00:47:00] doesn't want her life to be defined by

a central romantic 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: She decides that she doesn't want to move to Maine for the guy that she thinks that she's in love with.

She's not willing to give up her life that she built in Seattle, even though she does realize that she loves this guy and likes to sleep with him.

Martha: Mm hmm.

 And so that very much bucks that convention.

Elizabeth: You know, they sort of at the end have a relationship where they're visiting each other because he lives in Maine and she lives in Seattle.

But it's not wrapped up with a little bow. It's very much like, we're gonna see how this goes and , we hope it'll work. But the heroine is like, I'm not at the age of 40, which she turns 40 in the book, I'm not at the age of 40 willing to dismantle my entire life that I've spent the last two decades building just on the hope that I can have that storybook happily ever after.

It's not worth it to me.

Martha: Yeah, which is a very great reflection of where we are right now as a [00:48:00] society and where things are moving. So, , I wonder if that, just means that's not really a romance novel, it's more of women's fiction. Or if that's gonna be a trend of people bucking that happily for now

in 

Elizabeth: And still insisting that it's 

Martha: Yeah, yeah, 

Elizabeth: yeah,

maybe.

Martha: only time will tell.

Elizabeth: Yeah, we'll see. That's a really interesting thought. I hadn't thought of that. I very much was like, this just means that it's not a romance novel, right?

I'm thinking of it in the way that the industry defines those two things now. Because the way they define women's fiction is, yes, there might be a love story in it, but it's much more that the central story is the story of the woman's life.

And that includes other relationships, includes family. It might include, The death of a parent or it might include, the relationship with their sister or whatever, there's other things going on in their life besides just will they get together with this person or won't they?

 But then again, that gets so messy because like Book [00:49:00] Lovers by Emily Henry, I would say the central relationship in that story is the one of the sisters, but I would also very much call that a romance novel because it's a love story and it has sex scenes and

Martha: right,

But in the end, she didn't move to be with him, he moved to be with her.

Elizabeth: right. But they still have a happily ever after. Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, that is really interesting, Martha. I love that you said that because I do wonder, like, we were just talking about how the genre has been evolving the whole time it's been around. And so maybe this is. what we're seeing is just the next step in the evolution, or maybe, it'll just stay as a separation between women's fiction and romance.

Martha: Yeah. Just as it mirrors our society, I wonder, but like I said, we won't really know for a while until we can look back and track what happened.

Elizabeth: Yeah., So You know, when it comes to the conventions of romance novels, it's basically those main two ones. The Romance Writers of America is where I got that from. It's that central love story and it's the optimistic [00:50:00] ending, whether it's happily ever after or happily for now.

There also are, , we talked about this on a previous episode about how the Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros type books, have almost created this new genre romantasy.

 And so that might also be something that we're in the middle of an evolution 

into, romance expanding.

Or it could just be. That that's a phenomenon of a few books. I don't know.

Martha: Or is it just fantasy with a love interest subplot?

 

Marker

Elizabeth: Yeah, maybe. 

Marker

Martha: So obviously it's not just women who write romance, right? I can't imagine that that's the case, but I've personally never, I don't think I've ever read a romance novel that wasn't written by a woman 

or a non binary person.

Elizabeth: Yeah. That's a good point. , I mean, definitely men and people of other genders write romance. But, as you started to hint [00:51:00] at a little bit in the latter part of what you just said, it tends to be people that are in the non dominant group, 

 there are definitely gay men that write romance, and, I mean, as we've already talked about, there's a lot of queer romance that gets written.

But I think that more fundamental to your question is about the dominant group. The answer to whether straight men write romance is, it's a little bit complicated. Because mostly the answer is no, at least that I know about. And so that's to say, I said mostly because , I have seen actually a couple of men on social media specifically that talk about the fact that they write romance and how women when they read the books are always surprised to find out that it's a man that wrote it.

But I would say that those exceptions prove the rule, which is that. If a straight man wants to be a romance author and wants to write romance, it basically is something that they identify themselves as. The one guy that I'm thinking about on Instagram, I'll see if I can find him, and [00:52:00] share him with you.

 His whole Instagram persona is around the fact that he's a man that writes romance. He claimed that identity, almost, for himself. Because what normally happens when The reason straight men write love stories is that , they just don't get called romance in the book publishing industry and in the media and in the way that people talk about them.

It's not that men don't write love stories, they do, but something being called a romance seems to be, purely what happens , when women or people in other non dominant groups, write love stories. They get called romances, , whether they want them to be called romances or not.

Whereas

 That doesn't happen when men write love stories. So my best example that I feel like I always pick on this book, and it's not because it's a bad book. I actually really liked this book when I read it. Freedom by Jonathan Franzen. I think I've talked about it in one of the other episodes in the same context.

And that book, the reason that I think I [00:53:00] remember it all the time , whenever I'm talking to someone about this phenomenon is because what has stuck with me about that story is that It is about a love triangle, it's about a married couple who have been married since college and then as you get into the book, , spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't read Freedom, but it came out in like the year 2000.

So you've had enough time to read it. This married couple seem like this perfect suburban married couple on the surface and then as you get to know them and their story you find out that they got together in college but that the woman has always been in love with this third friend who was like the bad boy and was a musician and didn't want to be tied down and then her husband was the nice guy that she ended up marrying but she always has held a candle for this other friend who they still know, and then you find out they had sex like two or three times over the course of these decades that she's been married to the other guy.

The married couple ends up separating, [00:54:00] I think because he finds out about the affair, I can't really remember that part, but I remember that he gets together with a younger woman when they're separated and realizes that actually he , Really misses his wife and loves his wife and even though he's with this younger woman.

Who's written as a very sexual wants to have sex all the time and he's like, oh man I kind of miss my Wife 

like we 

Martha: up with her.

Elizabeth: Yeah, kind of like that. He gets that sort of fantasy that is drawn a lot in popular culture for, an older man to get a younger mistress.

And then he realizes that actually his wife was a better fit for him.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: And meanwhile, she goes off and goes after the friend and obviously predictably realizes that he's not all that her memory had turned him into and she actually misses her husband. And so they get back together in the end.

And I mean, . That is the core of the story, and obviously to say that the book is about a love triangle is reducing it, it's a really long book, and there's a lot of other things going on, there are a lot of deeper themes, but that is [00:55:00] also the case in most romance novels I've ever read, right, saying that Book Lovers is about enemies to lovers, is true, or rivals to lovers, maybe 

we would call them, but that's not by far.

All that the book is about, it's so much richer and that's the case with all books. So , I don't know, with Freedom and with a lot of these books that straight men write, I think that if they were women, they would be called romances, honestly. So for this episode, I went and looked back at the summary of Freedom to make sure that I wasn't misremembering it, , for this point that I wanted to make, being biased or anything, and I'm not. I remember the core story, I think it's really funny the way that the publisher talks about it, and the way that the media talks about it. I'm going to put in the chat this paragraph that's from the jacket copy that summarizes the book.

So keep in mind what I just told you about the core story, and then Martha, I want you to read this, paragraph 

that I'm going to put into the [00:56:00] chat. 

Martha: In his first novel since The Corrections, Jonathan Franzen has given us an epic of contemporary love and marriage. Freedom comically and tragically captures the temptations and burdens of liberty, the thrills of teenage lust, the shaking compromises of middle age, the wages of suburban sprawl.

The heavy weight of empire in charting the mistakes and joys of freedom's characters as they struggle to learn how to live in an ever more confusing world. Franzen has produced an indelible and deeply moving portrait of our time. That's funny. My take on that is that yes, the love story is the central story in the book, but they're big dealing it they're almost dramatizing it more because he's a man like trying to make it more serious. [00:57:00] Does

that make sense? Is that how 

Elizabeth: Yes. Absolutely. Oh my God. Absolutely. I would go even further. This. I think that this description of this book is ridiculous.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: It's ridiculous. The breathlessness of the language, you know, an epic, the thrills, the compromises, empire, , that language is specifically chosen to paint a picture.

And I'm not even saying that it's ridiculous in the sense that it doesn't describe the book, but it's just so clearly intentionally pushing you in a certain direction to think about this story I just can't imagine a book written by a woman that is centered around a love triangle being described in this way. Can you even 

Martha: No, and I also think that people would not react. In the same way to the characters in the story, , the female main character would be seen as a horrible person because she holds this candle and cheats [00:58:00] on her husband and

Elizabeth: She is sort of 

Martha: right, which, 

Elizabeth: But that, but that would be one of the ways that the book was sold, 

right? Like 

Martha: yeah, yeah, because if it's written by a woman, , the tone would just be very different.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I just can't, I just can't get over the breathlessness of that description.

It's just so funny to 

Martha: When I, yeah, when I was reading it, I felt like, It was an ad for a soap opera.

Elizabeth: Yeah, right.

 Actually, speaking of soap opera, my other example that I have of this is a TV show that I haven't watched, but it's called Yellowstone. Have you heard of or watch this TV show?

Martha: Yeah, I watched the first season and it was so dramatic and so much like a soap opera that I was like, I can't, I'm done. It's just too much for me. That was

my reaction. 

Elizabeth: Um, yeah, but, but it's not, as far as in the trailers or the ads that I've seen or the way that I've seen people talking [00:59:00] about it, it's not sold as a soap opera. It's very much sold as something for a mainly male audience. It stars Kevin Costner.

It's about a rancher fighting. Big oil, this sort of David and Goliath story, but the reason that it came to my attention as an example for this topic that we're talking about is because there's this man on TikTok, this big burly guy who did this TikTok video that I just couldn't stop laughing at and it just lived rent free in my head for days, where he was like, I've been watching Yellowstone and my wife has watched a few, episodes with me recently.

And she basically just explained to me how. Yellowstone is a romance for a man.

Martha: Mm. Mm 

Elizabeth: And he like goes through all of the storylines because it's an ensemble drama, there are storylines, the way that a soap opera is, there's these overlapping storylines about all of the members of the family and their love interests and their [01:00:00] enemies.

And he just goes through and he names all of these tropes that are in the show in using romance novel language. , there's enemies to lovers, there's forced proximity, there's all of these things, but that's not the way it's talked about. And I think that maybe we talked about this in the genres episode about how tropes are really useful for romance readers, but they can also be a little limiting or maybe a turnoff to people who don't read romance , for people who don't like romance or who think they don't like romance or who think that it's whatever that we've been talking about.

 They're sort of coded as this negative thing. And So when there are love stories or romances or soap operas or whatever that are designed to get a male audience, they're not talked about that 

way because they know that that's not going to appeal to them,

Martha: well, and it's interesting because The biggest difference in the way that it's made for men and not women in my mind is just all the violence

Elizabeth: [01:01:00] Hmm.

Martha: There's murder. There's people getting in fights like Beth gets beat up at one point by a man You know and it's like,

Elizabeth: Hmm.

Martha: know, that to me was the biggest Difference and that I don't know what that says, but it says something, 

Elizabeth: That's, yeah. Oh, certainly. It speaks very directly , to the way that we've , defined masculinity. I was going to say modern masculinity, but it's not, , it's a tale as 

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: That's really interesting you say that though, because I had a very similar reaction to, , Game of Thrones, when Game of Thrones was all the 

rage. I couldn't watch it because of how violent it was. And my boyfriend at the time tried to be like, I think you would like it I do like fantasy 

stuff. I've really been enjoying reading, reading Lord of the Rings and I like stuff like that.

 And so he was like, I think you'll like this. And I watched one episode and I was like, absolutely not.

No, thank you. No.

 There were people getting killed, a woman was either raped or there was an attempted [01:02:00] rape. And I'm just like, this is not, no,

Martha: yeah, there's a,

yeah, there's definitely a lot of violence in Game of Thrones, and that's part of it. I think for me, because personally, I love Game of Thrones, I think in my head, I could compartmentalize it , Yellowstone. It's set in our real world. It's a very real story, whereas Game of Thrones is obviously

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Martha: not real. 

 But we digress, I guess.

Elizabeth: violence in the, . romantasy books that, like those Sarah J. Maas or Rebecca Yarrow's books, because those are similar to Game of Thrones, 

Martha: There's definitely battles and Maybe even more overt violence in 4th Wing because they're killing each other off basically in the war college So yeah, there is a lot of violence, but I think because it's a fantasy you can kind of Suspend disbelief and

Elizabeth: Yeah, or some people 

can. I can't. [01:03:00] I can't, obviously.

That is maybe a little bit of a digression, but I do think that it's related. I think The overall thing of talking about this, it's just interesting to me because maybe it is the presence of violence or some other type of storyline that does make these things different, but it just seems, I don't know, it's something that I have thought about a lot over the course of my many years on this earth because there's nothing inherently just for women about it.

Love?

Martha: Right.

Elizabeth: Human relationships, right? We all have those and need them. When you talk to people of any gender who are old or who are on their deathbeds and they do those interviews with people about, what do you regret? What do you wish you spent more time on? , everyone says, I wish I spent more time with my family.

I wish I put more focus on my relationships. That is a human condition. So why? why? is it thought to only be for women?

Martha: I think it [01:04:00] all goes back to that woman who wrote the response to Hillary Clinton. I already am spacing her name,

Elizabeth: Maya Rodale, who also, by the way, wrote a book called Dangerous Books for Girls, The Bad Reputation of Romance Novels Explained, which I haven't read, but when I was, researching this, I realized that I want to read that because it sounds really good.

Martha: yeah, and she might have the answer for us in there. But, 

 What I was thinking is it all goes back to that point of, it's like patriarchy versus matriarchy. Like, in a matriarchal society, it's more about caring for your community, and it's more centered on love that sort of thing, and if we're writing our idealized versions of how things could be as women, Maybe that's where, I mean, I think it's on a very subconscious level.

I don't think people are really thinking about it in that [01:05:00] sense, but

Elizabeth: Yeah. I wonder, I think that what you're saying is probably true, but it does seem like it's based on like you said, an idealized version of that. Because, there have been matriarchal societies in history, , like, the Amazons, you know, they're , super violent.

Martha: yeah,

Elizabeth: So I don't know, I don't know a lot about the history of matriarchal 

societies, so I'm not, yeah, I can't actually, , make any really strong point about that. But it is, I wonder a little bit, it does seem like it comes back to what you were saying, that it's like an idealized version of how women wish things were. , 

Martha: yeah, I think what I was describing is what I've seen people describe as like, if women ruled the world, this is how it would be, and so not necessarily historically accurate. 

 What we think a matriarchy could be. Given the chance.

Elizabeth: Yeah. I do love romance but there's still something about it that I grapple with a little bit. Trying to figure out why it's just for women, why it is the way it [01:06:00] is, the way that we've titled this episode, What's the Deal With Romance, right?

 I grapple with it a little bit. And what you were just saying reminds me there's this scholar named Janice Radway that my friend, Dr. Dana Showalter,

Elizabeth: introduced me to. , she wrote this book called Reading the Romance, Women, Patriarchy, and Popular Literature, and she actually wrote, the first edition of it is from 1984, and then she revised it and put out a new edition in 1991, and that's the one that I have, , I haven't read it from cover to cover, but that I've read parts of, um, and she grapples with this question because granted the 80s and 90s were a long time ago, right?

So take the points that she makes with that grain of salt, but I thought it was interesting related to what we were talking about because what she saw in her field in academia. She's a feminist scholar and she grappled with the criticism from that community at the time of [01:07:00] romance novels as a genre and of women reading romance novels as being a negative thing, 

, that, those stories and that genre hemmed them into the patriarchy and I think that some of that is probably based on what we talked about earlier in the episode about the history of the way that romance novels used to be really different than they are now. But, we also talked about the fact that there are still those two main conventions, right?

That the love story is central. And that there's that happily ever after, happily for now that's connected to that romantic relationship. And so, I do think that this point still applies, or that those criticisms still apply a little bit. , I don't have any time for the criticisms of romance that are based in misogyny and sexism, obviously, that just want to, , denigrate things that are for women.

But I do still grapple with why do these stories that are so much for women, where we get to depict ourselves, like that essay was saying, like that, that you were just talking about was saying, this is one of the only places [01:08:00] that we get to depict our own lives. We're going to give our own version of what the world could be, but it's still so centrally structured around and tethered to that narrative of romantic love.

Martha: Mm 

Elizabeth: I mean? And so Janice Rodway addresses this in her research and her research is qualitative. So if you've listened to our previous episode about my research, you know what that is. But basically she interviewed, 42. women in a Midwestern town that she doesn't name who are romance readers that she met through a bookstore employee who had a reputation as an expert romantic,, fiction recommender.

So she and her bookstore basically did reader's advisory, with women who were looking to read romance. And so she connected Radway with these readers. She did really long interviews with these women. Trying to address the seeming contradiction that, women are [01:09:00] asserting their independence and bucking social conventions by reading these books, but they're reading books that essentially still confine women , within these social 

expectations of romance and a happily ever 

after, right? , there's a lot to the book, but that's what her, research is addressing. One of the things that stood out to me is that one of the interviewees has a quote that says, we read books so we won't cry.

 What Radway took away from that , is that while, the women that she interviewed, they were mostly mothers, they were wives, and they devoted a lot of themselves to taking care of their families, and that they didn't have enough nurturing for themselves from the people in their lives or from themselves, and so they found escape from their demanding lives in these books, but also they found a hero in the books that supplied them with things that they didn't feel like they were getting from their real life 

relationship.

Like we were talking about that alpha hero who is, sort of conventionally what A [01:10:00] man should be, but also is tender and gives the woman a lot of attention and does a lot of things that stereotypically that type of man in the real world wouldn't do, and that these women didn't feel like they had in their lives.

So they were appreciating the fact that the heroines were these, strong, independent, intelligent people, Who still got That romantic love that these women wanted in their real lives, but felt like they weren't really getting.

And so, I don't know, I don't really know what I'm getting at, but it just, it feels so messy.

Do you see what I'm saying? It's like, you want that, but you also want the world to be different. But you have to confine yourself to your reality. Almost.

Martha: struggling with is that as feminists we always believe in What we want is the choice, right? We want choices to be able to do whatever we want. 

And within the conventions of a romance novel, there's not really a choice. There's always the relationship and the happily ever [01:11:00] after or for now. 

So that's what you liked about the book Flying Solo, 

is that she did have a choice and in the end, she didn't choose the relationship. She chose herself. So I think that's one point. 

And then, the second point, I think, with the women who are kind of using them as escape and imagining different or better version of their real life relationships, This illustrates a lot of the criticisms that romance novels get, right, men who don't really know what romance is and don't like it, they roll their eyes, they don't want their wives to read it because they're like, that's not real, that's not real life. They think that their women are going to get this unrealistic version of a relationship and try and hold them to that standard. They don't want to be

held to that standard, right? And the women are looking at these relationships like, oh, [01:12:00] wouldn't that be nice?

Elizabeth: Mm hmm.

Martha: So it is messy because yeah, we are living in our realities and these relationships aren't real. However, I think they could be more real in the

Elizabeth: Yeah. What you just said, I do think that that really helps clarify it. And as you were talking, I found this one paragraph that I copied out That I haven't read that I didn't see when I was talking about Radway just now, and basically, you just hit the nail on the head and have come to the same conclusion that she did in your wisdom that you always have.

 But I'll just read this because I feel like it's a good reiteration and expansion of what you just said, . So, quote, these romance readers resent not only the limited choices in their own lives, but the patronizing attitude that men, in their lives especially, express toward their reading tastes.

In fact, women read romances both to protest and to escape temporarily the narrowly defined role prescribed for them by a patriarchal culture. Paradoxically, the books that they read [01:13:00] make conventional roles for women seem desirable. It is this complex relationship between culture, text, and the woman reader that Radway urges feminists 

to address. This paragraph came from, , the publisher's summary of the book. Romance readers, she argues, should be encouraged to deliver their protests in the arena of actual social relations rather than to act them out in the solitude of the imagination.

So she basically. It seems to me as saying that this is a way that, that women feel like they are protesting and , almost engaging in social activism.

Martha: Mm hmm. Mm

Elizabeth: And so she might wish that they would take it one step further, but I thought that that was really interesting that there is a paradox here, but it's a paradox that like you said is rooted in the reality of their lives.

But it also gives them a way to escape that 

reality. And to make it feel like , there could be a version of it that's desirable in a perfect world.

Martha: We're not going to say not all men, not all men, not all men, but Not all men [01:14:00] do have this problem,

right, with the romance 

Elizabeth: And if, yeah, and if you're listening and you're one of the men that doesn't, then we're glad and that we're not talking about you. So just 

carry on. Mm

Martha: are men who have started reading their wives romance novels. I've seen this a

lot on social media and the reactions I've seen are they enjoy them too. 

I'm sure , there's some who'd read them and wouldn't because books are subjective, but I don't think that the comparison of , the imaginary relationship and the real relationship is totally, useless. You shouldn't try and change yours to be exactly that relationship, but there are things that you could take from it. Like if the hero character is a very good listener. And that's something in the book that you're like, Oh, I love that. , if you feel like you're not heard in your [01:15:00] relationship, that's something that you just love about this character, you could try and bring that into your relationship. I mean, don't go to your partner and say, Why can't you be more like this hero in this book?

Right? 

That's not the move. But Subtly implementing or having a frank discussion about this is what I need, or this is what I'm looking for.

Elizabeth: Yeah, 

totally. That's a great point. Yeah. It could make visible to you something that you feel like you're missing or something that you want that you're not getting that you maybe didn't realize before.

Martha: And not the unrealistic things the superficial, or you know what I'm saying, but

Elizabeth: Right.

Martha: is a tricky topic to unpack.

Elizabeth: Yeah. It is. It is. And I don't want to get too overly serious about it because I think that getting to what you were just saying about , you don't want to take it too far, of course, and I don't think that most women need to be told 

this, women who read romance, know that [01:16:00] it's not real life, but it is entertainment, 

I'm remembering that really funny TikTok that went around a while ago where that woman is making a point about, The way that in every romance novel, the size of the hero's 

penis is described like completely unrealistically. And she's like, where is all that going? 16 inches. Are 

you kidding me? That's not going in here . You know, so that's an extreme example obviously, of the way that , these books are unrealistic, but certainly, that goes both ways, . It's a fantasy version, it's not real life, but yeah, I think that what you were just saying is a good measured way to think about how it could , perhaps, help 

people like see some 

Martha: I guess what I'm getting at is with all books they make you more empathetic. You put yourself in someone else's shoes. , that's no different in a romance novel, and it might make you reflect on your own life.

Elizabeth: I really love those videos that I've been seeing too on social media and on TikTok, especially where the partners of the romance readers are [01:17:00] reading the novels and are loving them, but also, there might be things that they draw from those.

too, I remember there was this one reel I saw where the woman was like, Men, if your wife is a romance reader, read her favorite book and then do that.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: Right? , in terms of like, there's , all these videos of men saying the lines in the book or something to their partners that are really sexy or doing the doorway lean or whatever I'm not talking about be that person but do some of the things in that book that's what your wife is 

into she reads those books for a reason or your significant other whoever it is so get some tips she'll thank you It's not a bad thing, necessarily, if you don't turn it into one, it could actually be a great thing for your relationship, spice things up or, change things up or whatever, if you just approach it in that way.

I think those videos are so great. It's so funny to me.

Martha: I'm laughing because in my head, I'm like, it's not that serious. Don't take it too serious. And you sent me that tick tock this morning. [01:18:00] All the men on dating apps who are saying they're looking for a woman, woman who

doesn't take 

Elizabeth: take herself 

Martha: seriously?

So

just turn it back around on them. It's not that serious.

Elizabeth: Right. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. So, I don't know. , I feel like that's the, potentially, not heavy part, but that's the part , that I grapple with. But I think that everything that you've said is right.

And it's just the messiness of our reality. And life is messy and the world is 

Martha: And relationships are complicated,

Elizabeth: Yeah, and also like you just, , reminded me , in an ongoing theme of our podcast, books mean different things to different people. So people are going to react in a different way, to different books.

 For me, romance novels are , I purely want them to be an escape. So I only want the books that are giving me the version of the world that is exactly the way I want it to be, 

Which is why I love Evie dunmore because it's a historical romance that's not [01:19:00] historically accurate. , I actually don't want historical 

accuracy, 

Martha: hmm.

Elizabeth: right? When I'm reading a romance novel for Escape, that is set in the 1800s, I know That it was rough to live as a woman in the 1800s, I don't need to be reminded of that.

And that's part of the reason why I didn't like Outlander. , I know that women were in danger of being raped, like, every five seconds. I don't need that on every five pages of the book 

that I'm reading. I just don't want it. And I understand why some people do.

, for some people, when movies and TV shows and books aren't historically accurate in certain ways, it, annoys them.

Martha: Bridgerton. People were so

annoyed with Bridgerton, and it's like, that's

the point, people.

Elizabeth: Yeah, right. That is what people are missing when they get annoyed about that. And I think that that's why I came around from what we were just talking about to this topic, because it is not that serious.

 It is just 

entertainment. It doesn't matter 

 Why does it matter if it's historically [01:20:00] accurate?

 And I think that it's important that it's not presenting itself as historically accurate, right? It's not calling itself a history book. It's not calling itself a documentary, and you know, certain people, that bothers more than others.

Although I never really understand why that type of historical. Historical inaccuracy bothers some people and it doesn't bother them that , everyone doesn't have disgusting teeth and isn't walking around with , infected wounds because there are no antibiotics and that type of historical inaccuracy doesn't bother people, but heaven forbid.

Anyway, don't get me on that soapbox. But yeah that's what romance is for me. I definitely, if I haven't made this clear, because I was talking about how reticent I was in the beginning, I have definitely come around to it. It's one of my favorite genres now., I almost have to force myself to read anything else these days, to be honest.

, and most of the time I don't bother, because having all these conversations with you about, reading should be something that you enjoy. I'm just like, well, if I want to read another romance novel, I just will. Who cares? Right but , it doesn't have to be so serious.

I can read what I [01:21:00] think is fun 

and what is an escape for me. And 

Martha: Yeah. It's good. 

 It means you're reading more books because you're enjoying them. You're getting through them faster.

Elizabeth: Right. Yeah, exactly. 

What about for you? 

Martha: I think it's really similar to what you just said at the most basic level. They're just good entertainment. You don't have to think too hard about it. It's a nice way to escape the everyday and Because they always end up with the happily for now or happily ever after, you know that it's going to be emotionally satisfying.

So if you're going through something rough in your real life, it's just a great escape and it gives you warm and fuzzies and just like any other book, you can learn something about yourself. If there's something in it that you're like, Oh,

you know, then, you know, that's not for you. And. If there's something in it , that gave you a book hangover, then you just learn something about yourself, and, as far as the reading [01:22:00] experience goes, I love a good page turner, and the will they won't they element of romance novels oftentimes is a page turner or that story doorway, so I think

They're a really good fit for me.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's a good point and something that I didn't talk about with what they are to me, because That's something else that has turned me into a romance reader, is finding the types of romances that I actually like, no shade to My Lord and Spy Master

Martha: Ha ha ha ha.

Elizabeth: read in grad school. I'm sure that there are some readers who that is their type of romance and that's fine.

It's great. Absolutely no judgment. But that's not what appealed to me. And so figuring out that, romance novels are not a monolith. There's a romance for every reader, 

and the ones that I tend to enjoy are the ones that are more character driven. I like it when there are other storylines that have a big part. Of it, I keep talking about Book Lovers, I loved that book, it was very character driven story, but [01:23:00] I would say that the relationship between the sisters was just as central, if not more central to the story than the love story was.

it,

was a big element at 

Martha: it was very central. But I think because the female main character's sister wanted her to find love and

happily ever after, that kind of gave that romantic relationship more focus, because that was part of their sisterly relationship, is that she wanted her sister to find her happy ending.

too, 

Elizabeth: Right,

Martha: So speaking of book lovers and how there's a romance novel for every reader Didn't you have a male friend who texted you after he listened to one of our episodes and he read Book Lovers and loved it? And I don't remember if he knew it was a romance going into it or maybe he, he didn't realize it was a romance, but he loved it, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah, oh my God, I'm so glad you brought that [01:24:00] up. I forgot about that. That's a great point. Yeah. He did know it was a romance going into reading it, but he said that he'd never read a contemporary romance before, but that he decided to read it because I was talking so much about it and there was just something that for whatever reason piqued his interest about it.

And so he decided to read it and he did really like it. But what he said that was so interesting is that

, he kept while he was reading it, catching himself expecting tropes to show up that he was more familiar with from the genres that he reads in. He reads more sci fi and mystery and things like that. And so it was a very unfamiliar reading experience, not just because he hasn't read contemporary romance before, but because 

Elizabeth: he's used to reading a genre book and knowing the beats that are coming, knowing the conventions that are coming, and not only was it a type of story he hadn't read before, but , he didn't know what to expect in terms of the conventions and the tropes. But he was like, yeah, it was incredible.

He said she writes incredible dialogue. [01:25:00] The plotting and the pacing is different than what I'm used to, but I really loved it. And the end made me tear up or something like 

that.

Yeah, 

That's, 

so funny to me.

Martha: This is a long episode, and I feel like we've barely scratched the surface on this topic.

Elizabeth: yeah. There's a lot, there just is so much to talk about. It's like romance novels themselves, there's so much that's related to bigger themes of, , what is it to be a human? And what is it to have relationships with other humans? And,

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: you know, there's just so much wrapped up in these little books.

Martha: Well, I hope that we've inspired someone who doesn't read romance to try it out.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I hope so too., if there is, an element of this or a part of this conversation that you feel like we didn't explore, I would be happy to do a part two. I feel like I could talk about this for another five hours 

easily. So send us an email to allbooksaloudpod@gmail.com

Martha: yeah. 

And if you're [01:26:00] not already, you should definitely follow us on Instagram and TikTok at allbooksaloudpod. And make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcast So you never miss an episode leave us a positive rating and review It really helps other listeners find us and read on my friends.

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