What's involved in translating a novel? Interview with Polly Mackintosh, French-English translator for Gallic Books

We have explored a lot of different components of the book publishing industry on the podcast, but neither of us know much about the work of literary translation. So, we were thrilled to get the chance to talk with Polly Mackintosh about her work. Polly is Commissioning Editor and in-house translator for Gallic Books, and is the translator of the forthcoming novel, Clara Reads Proust by Stéphane Carlier. 

We chatted with Polly about how she got started as a translator, what her favorite and most challenging parts of the work are, her process and how she captures each author's style and tone, what influence she thinks AI will have on the work of literary translators, and much more. Join us as we learn about the fascinating mix of art and craft that goes into translating a work of art like a novel!

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Books we're reading in this episode:   

Clara Reads Proust by Stéphane Carlier, Polly Mackintosh (Translator) (published in the UK on March 28th, forthcoming in North America - May 21, 2024) 
Birding With Benefits by Sarah T. Dubb (forthcoming - June 4, 2024)
The Gentleman's Gambit by Evie Dunmore (A League of Extraordinary Women #4)
A Stroke of the Pen: The Lost Stories by Terry Pratchett
Bookshops & Bonedust by Travis Baldree (Legends & Lattes #0 )
What I Know About You by Éric Chacour (forthcoming - September 24, 2024)
A Certain Hunger by Chelsea G. Summers
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Additional notes from Polly:

The ebook of Clara Reads Proust will be available to everyone (US and UK) starting on  March 28, 2024. There isn't a date for the audiobook release yet, but it will be coming at some point.  

After the interview, I asked Stéphane whether he'd ever been a hairdresser, and he said he hadn't but shared the following insights:

I asked one of my best friends, Quentin, who happened to a hairdresser, to help me. Sent him emails with questions like "What does it smell like when you get to the salon in the morning? Please be very specific" or "What's in the drawer of the counter at the entrance?" Poor Quentin, he was so nice and helpful! The "Proust parts" of the book (the second and third parts) were easy compared to the "salon part" of it (the first one)!

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Intro and outro music: "The Chase," by Aves.

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Read on!

Transcript

[All Books Aloud theme music and intro]

Elizabeth: Hi, Martha.

Martha: Hi Liz.

Elizabeth: How are you doing today?

Martha: I am great. How are you?

Elizabeth: I am also great. Because we have a really special episode today. We have a guest. So, I want to welcome our guest. Her name is Polly Mackintosh. Polly is a commissioning editor and in house translator at Gallic Books.

Hi, Polly. Thanks for [00:01:00] joining us today.

Polly: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Martha: Yeah, we are so excited to have you on as our first guest. Usually we start our episodes off by talking about what we're reading. So if you're game for that, Polly we'll include you in our little intro about what we're reading.

Polly: Yeah, absolutely.

Martha: Okay, cool. Liz, you want to go first and share what you're reading?

Elizabeth: Yeah, sure. I am, as always, reading a couple of different books in different formats. I did just finish the book that we're going to talk with Polly about. Clara Reads Proust. , but I did finish it before this episode. I did my homework. So it's not what I'm currently reading. What I'm currently reading, my physical book, is, this book, which I want to show you the cover because it's really cute.

It's called , Birding with Benefits by Sarah T. Dubb, and this is also actually, , an advanced copy. This book is coming out in June and is written by a friend of [00:02:00] a friend . So I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy of this book and it is adorable.

It's basically a rom com and it has the fake dating trope The characters are named Celeste and John, and they're both in their early 40s, which I have found really refreshing and awesome because I mean, that's not that old. It's how old I am. And I always joke that I'm so old, but you don't usually get main characters in romance novels that are in their 40s.

And I didn't really realize that until I started reading it. And I was like, Oh, wow, this is so cool. These people are my age and, you know, have baggage and are divorced and have kids and are trying to date again. And it's just, it was refreshing. , but yeah, it's really adorable. And I I'm loving it so far, and I'm going to send it in the mail to you, Martha, because I think that you'll love it, too.

Martha: Yeah, I can't wait. It sounds great.

Elizabeth: And then the last book that I'm reading is, I'm still working through the audiobook of The [00:03:00] Gentleman's Gambit by, by Evie dunmore. But I just got to a part that I am loving, and so I have a feeling that I'm going to binge it. I'm going on a trip pretty soon, and I have a feeling that I'll probably be finished with it by the time I get back because it got to a part where I feel like it's really going to start heating up and I'm going to want to not stop listening to it.

Martha: Good, good.

Elizabeth: So yeah, that's what I'm reading. What about you, Martha?

Martha: I am also reading a couple things right now. , my physical book is A Stroke of the Pen, The Lost Stories by Terry Pratchett. I haven't read any Terry Pratchett before, but he is quite a famous fantasy author. His most popular series is the Discworld series. And so maybe I'm doing things backwards. But it's okay.

It'll all work out. Cause I think I'll read the Discworld series now too. But this is actually a collection of short stories that he wrote under a pseudonym for, , different [00:04:00] newspapers in the UK in the 80s, 70s and 80s. And so some dedicated fans put two and two together that these were his kind of experiments where he was testing out some of his Discworld, characters and settings and that sort of thing.

So yeah, it's been really fun and light and really smart humor, and I've really been enjoying that. And then on audio, I'm listening to Bookshops and Bone Dust by Travis Baldree. It's the prequel to Legends and Lattes, which I started after I finished The Bluest Eye because I felt like I needed a palette cleanser.

 I was just like, oh my god, I need something light and cozy. And I was a little hesitant, honestly, to start Legends and Lattes because When I read the description and just what people thought about it, it almost sounded a little juvenile. I was being a little judgy. , but it's not at all. [00:05:00] It's really good.

It's really fun and perfect for what I was looking for. So I've been really enjoying that duology, I guess you could call it at this point.

Elizabeth: that's cool. Yeah. I totally understand needing a palate cleanser after. I love Toni Morrison, as you know, she's one of my favorite authors, but. Yeah,

Martha: Not at all. , what about you, Polly? What are you reading?

Polly: So if I'm honest, I'm currently reading something for work, , which is kind of a boring answer. , but that is the realities of being an editor sometimes. So it's a great one. So we're publishing it. Gallic Books is publishing it in the UK, but in Canada and North America, it's Coach House Books.

, And it's a book called What I Know About You by Eric Chakor, who is a debut novelist, , from Montreal. And it's the story of, , a doctor and [00:06:00] he's living in, in Egypt, he's Egyptian, , and he's married and he's, following, , the life that was kind of intended for him. And then he, , one, he meets a patient, and , Her son is a guy called Ali, and he basically falls in love with this guy, so it's the story of their love, but it's an impossible love and lots of things happen, , but it's a really, really great, moving novel, so I'm reading that one at the moment, , translated from French, but before that, , to not just talk about Gallic, , I read A Certain Hunger by Chelsea G.

Summers, which was a lot of fun. , I don't know if you guys have read it, but it's about, , a female cannibal, essentially. So she's a food writer who also eats the men that she dates. And it's, it's great. It's very funny. It's very poetic. , and very fresh. So I would really recommend that to you guys as well.[00:07:00] 

Elizabeth: I was nodding vigorously because I haven't read it, but I do know about it and it's on my TBR and I'm glad that you, that you gave a little summary of what it's about because I just find even the, elevator pitch for it is so hilarious.

Polly: Yeah. It's, it was a really fun read. I read it on holiday and yeah, it was , perfect for carrying around and picking up.

Martha: Yeah, that's great. It must be hard to find time to read books for pleasure , doing what you do.

Polly: Yeah, , it's kind of a balance and it's hard to get it right, but usually I'll try and read a couple of things for work and then read something for pleasure. It doesn't always work exactly like that, but I try to mix it up because otherwise it can feel quite heavy. Although , it's really nice to read new things as well, but.

, it's still work, so it's nice to be able to, , separate the things that you do for work and the [00:08:00] things that you enjoy reading outside of work as well.

Martha: Mm hmm. That makes sense.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Cause that novel that you were talking about that is forthcoming sounds amazing. I really want to read it when it comes out. Thank you. But

Polly: Yeah, 

Elizabeth: I know what you mean about it. When it's your work, it doesn't ever quite feel totally like, yeah.

Polly: one, because that one I've definitely, I've really enjoyed reading it as well, but yeah, it's kind of, there's still part of you that is on work mode, I think, and you just can't, you can't really get rid of that, in my experience anyway.

Martha: hmm. Which probably makes you good at what you do. You know, that's a good thing.

Polly: I hope so, yeah.

Elizabeth: So, , I introduced you at the very beginning, but I just want to talk a little bit more about how we got connected with you and how this came to be. So, as I said, you are the in house translator at Gallic Books and , one of the marketing people at your publisher got in touch with us about Clara Reads Proust, , [00:09:00] by Stéphane Carlier, , coming out in May, and, , they reached out to us because they thought it would be a book that we would like. , having, I don't know, looked at our stuff or listened to the podcast, I'm not really sure, but, , she was right. 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: the book. 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: and we also were really intrigued. she gave us a lot of different options for how we could interact with the book , offered to send it to us so that we could read it, obviously, but then how we could, interact with it.

And her idea of interviewing you as a translator was really intriguing to us because, , for people who have listened to the podcast, we have explored a lot of different components of the publishing industry. , I'm a writer and so I aspire to be published. And so I've been paying attention to the industry for a long time from that perspective, but neither of us knew very much about that work of translating.

So we are really interested in that. So , we're really excited for you to, talk to us a little bit about that work and about what you do. We'll also talk a little bit about [00:10:00] Clara Reads Proust, but we're going to try for no spoilers because we want our listeners to read it. , it comes out on May 21st.

I just looked in my notes and found the exact date. And is that in the UK and North America?

Polly: Yeah, so it publishes in the UK on the 28th of March, but yeah, , May in North America.

Elizabeth: Okay, great. , we know from our statistics that we do have some listeners in the UK. So if you're , by the time this episode comes out, you'll definitely be able , to pick it up. And then, for folks in the U. S., you just have about another month to wait before you can get your hands on it.

Martha: Mm hmm.

 So, tell us a little bit about yourself and your work as a translator, , do you only translate novels, or does Gallic publish other sorts of books that you translate?

Polly: So yeah, it's been. It's been an interesting kind of journey for me because I guess my first ever translations were I worked for a startup in Paris on my year abroad, and [00:11:00] I was translating pet news. It was kind of, uh, , I don't know, a good time of the Internet where there wasn't.

Loads and loads of stuff out there, and we were just doing stories about pets, basically, and I was translating them from French, which was a really, really fun job. But at Gallic, , it is mainly novels that I'm doing, , And I've got into it here just by, , well, we have in house translators because it's makes the work of translating easier and more financially possible for us.

, More recently, I've done a couple of things last year, so one of them is Clara Reads Proust, which is coming out soon. And the other one was a memoir manifesto from the chef Alain Ducasse, who was a massive Michelin starred chef.

So that was actually non fiction. , and my first And only a foray into nonfiction, so there's definitely some interesting differences to be talked about there and the different [00:12:00] ways that you have to think, , when translating, I think.

Martha: hmm. What are the main differences and which one do you prefer?

Polly: so I think I found that with, , the nonfiction, it's in some ways, was more straightforward because there's a lot of like fact, , and real events that situate it and make it less creative. , still interesting, but , it's a different kind of writing. Whereas with Clara Reads Proust and with other things I've done, you can be a little bit more free.

, and there's more poetic, , language and. There's more of a style, I think, which can be a little more difficult to recreate, and I think that's, one of the great things about being a translator, but also a difficult thing is that you have to try and recreate not just the words, but the sense of something, and the way that it flows from one language to another.

is not going to be the same in, in [00:13:00] English, for example. So I think that's probably the main difference. But it's true that , with every different book, you have a different style that you're working with because you're essentially the voice , of the writer, but in a different language. So it's always different.

But I think that's the main difference for me between fiction and nonfiction in my experience

Martha: Do you have a favorite so far?

Polly: of the books I've translated.

Martha: fiction and non fiction?

Polly: Oh, I don't know. I actually really enjoyed doing, , Alan Dukas. The non fiction because I learned a lot and it kind of introduced me into his world, into his life, which was really interesting and you get a really in depth knowledge of a person. , but I've done a lot more fiction, so I don't know if I have a favourite.

Martha: Yeah.

Polly: Depends on my mood, I think. Non fiction is definitely, has proved to me to be a little bit easier. But I'm sure that's not true of every nonfiction [00:14:00] slash fiction comparison. So 

Martha: yeah,

And do you only do French to English? Okay. And how did you become fluent in French?

Polly: Well, I studied it at university and did my year abroad in France. , so lived there for a year. And then since then, I've just kind of kept my, kept my hand in really. , I've made some great friends there while I was on my year abroad. I've always been really interested in France, I think because my parents always took us on holiday there when we were younger and were always encouraging us to learn French basically

, but I think just being fascinated by the language and the place, helped me keep up the language as well.

Martha: Yeah, that's awesome. I'm jealous. My two or three years of high school French didn't stick. I feel like if you don't have someone to talk to, it makes a big difference.

Polly: Yeah. I think definitely being in this [00:15:00] job as well where I'm reading in French a lot and Translating as well. It obviously keeps you quite fresh. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. I took four years of French in high school too, but I definitely don't remember any of it. So you, you lose it. It's so much easier for people in the UK to go to France than it is for us here though. It's just like a little hop.

Polly: yeah, it is. It is very easy. , you can just get on a train , from London to Paris and you're there in two, three hours. So yeah, we have a very nice situation there.

Martha: So you mentioned that you started off translating the stories about pets. , how did you get started in that role? How did you become a translator? Was it like a natural thing Hmm

Polly: I think I found it as it was like an internship , , that , they were running , in Paris and it was for a small startup who were interested in bringing in interns and they worked a lot in [00:16:00] English. , but actually, there was a team of us translating into English, Italian, and German.

So it was, there was stuff going on there. , but it was only for a short time, , about four months, I think. , but yeah, that was just a case of , finding it on the internet, basically, and going for it. And yeah, they interviewed me, and then, yeah, I got the job, 

Elizabeth: Has that been what you've done professionally since then or have you done other things and then just got back into it recently with your company now?

Polly: I've done A few things kind of all in the same vein, there I was copywriting and translating and then I came to Gallic and have been doing editorial stuff. I've also done a bit of comms in the role that I was doing prior to this one, and now I'm back in editorial translating. So I'd say , the themes have been the same throughout what I've done, but I haven't always stuck, super strictly to translation throughout the years.

Martha: And [00:17:00] obviously you've spent time in France. You probably feel like you have a sense of the culture and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but do you feel like that plays a big role in being able to translate these stories and capture the meaning behind the words and the feeling of the book?

Polly: I think so. Yeah I don't think it's essential, but I think it definitely helps to have a little bit of knowledge of, of the culture and definitely in the way that words are used. And, I think that's one of the key things about translation is that you can't always, you can't take words exactly as, as they are and just translate them.

 You have to understand the context, which. It's probably helped a lot by spending time with French people and in the place and knowing it a bit but I wouldn't say that being in France is necessarily essential. But I do think understanding the way that French is spoken is definitely, definitely [00:18:00] useful.

Martha: Mhm. Mhm.

Elizabeth: I think that that was one of my biggest questions, and I mean you, you talked about this a little bit already, but I might just ask you to go into a little bit more depth with what you were just saying, because it really does seem to me, especially like you were saying, translating fiction, it really is an interesting mix of an art and fiction.

Uh, sort of technical, I don't know, science isn't the right word, but do you know what I'm saying? , it's a craft and it's an art in the sense that you're not just translating with fiction something directly, right? Like, you were just saying you have to choose certain words or certain phrases or the right idiom to get the feel for what the person is saying in the other language that maybe won't directly translate.

literally. So I'd love if you would maybe say a little bit more about that. And I don't know if you have any examples that you could share about how that can sometimes be a little bit of a interesting mix of you have to be creative and artistic with also like capturing what the person was saying.

[00:19:00] Yeah,

Polly: it is, yeah, it's definitely a different thing, literary translation, compared to other types of translation, because, for example, when I was doing , the articles about pets, , , it didn't really matter what the style was like, as long as it had the key information and the more factual stuff.

 It was fine. Whereas with fiction and works of literature, you do have to think about the sentence structure, , the way it sounds, the poetry of the words. So , it sometimes takes a couple of edits and revisions to firstly translate it to something in English, but then to translate it into something that actually sounds good. is the fun part, but can also be a real headache if you get stuck on a sentence, it can really take a long time to work it out. , but yeah, luckily We have really good copy editors and proofreaders who are also bilingual, , and I edit other people's translations as well, so [00:20:00] sometimes we'll have conversations or I'll have conversations with translators or copy editors about the phrasing of a sentence and then you can unpick things and work out what the best solution is.

But , yeah, there's never really a right answer, but you can usually tell , what is a wrong answer, if you know what I mean.

Elizabeth: that's interesting. So it is, really very similar to the process of writing. You have You have a first draft and then you have a second draft that you might get other eyes on. 

Polly: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it's different in that , you occupy a strange space where you're sort of between two things. , you're between the author, the original text, and the translation, and there is the information that you do have to convey and also the kind of style.

So I think , you're sort of bound in some ways, , which is something that I actually [00:21:00] really like because I find writing quite difficult, but I like translating because it's sort of writing, but without having to have the ideas. , and you can focus more on the actual words. themselves, which is the part that I really like.

, but yeah, it's definitely a process that is kind of open to, revision and often I'll work with authors as well and they'll see it. And if they speak English, sometimes they give feedback on things. , so it's, yeah, it's a conversation, , as well as a, personal project.

Elizabeth: Okay, that's interesting. We were wondering about the authors. 

Martha: Yeah, I feel like there has to be Such a level of trust between the author and the translator the author must really trust you to convey their style and their story. And I just wonder a little bit how that comes about. And , are you also working closely with the author or are [00:22:00] they just like, , I trust you.

I'm putting this in your hands. , .

Polly: I think it can depend a lot on the specific working partnerships between authors and translators. And, I don't know if I'm the most typical in the way I do it. , But yeah, , there is obviously a lot of trust to be handing your work to somebody else. , we always would share the final version with authors and 

they can always comment on it and give their amends, , until it goes to print, basically. , it's a conversation between us. , and often I'll go to them and say, I don't really understand this bit. Could you explain what you mean here? , So you've got that relationship.

, but it does depend a lot on the author. And I think some are, More happy to let you just get on with it and some want to be involved

Martha: hmm. Mm

Polly: But I yeah, I don't think that's necessarily the way that it works for everyone. I know a lot of translators and Authors have very [00:23:00] close working relationships and help each other.

So , it depends

Martha: hmm.

Elizabeth: It also probably depends on how fluently the author speaks English, right? Whether they're

Polly: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth: you ever have authors that want to translate their own books? , is that something that happens in this world? Or is it always translated by a translator? Mm., 

Polly: I don't know if it would happen with somebody who's not , properly bilingual. I know Jhumpa Lahiri wrote a book in Italian and she's , I think, originally from the US. But not in my experience. I have had feedback from authors, , who want to have a go at the English parts and guide you on the English, which. Can be, more difficult because it's your first language and , it's, it's not theirs. But, , yeah, it depends a lot. If an author has spent time in English speaking country, , or , if they know the language really well, then I think they're probably more inclined to [00:24:00] participate.

So yeah, definitely varies according to the author.

Elizabeth: It is interesting though to think about how much of you is in it. But it doesn't, it sounds like you really think of yourself as a mouthpiece for the author. You don't think of yourself as a co author or something. You're not creating necessarily, or do you?

Polly: It's a funny one. And I think a lot of translators would have different things to say. I do think it's a creative work and I do, think that translation is an important thing to acknowledge and to, , name the translator and acknowledge that has happened because it is an art and it is very time consuming and there's a lot of thought that goes into it.

 But I wouldn't go so far as to say. I consider myself to be a co author because the plot and most of the book has been conceived without me. , But yeah, I think, I think somewhere between the two, [00:25:00] ,

Polly: , it's not just a simple act of recreating.

 There is a lot of thought that goes into it. 

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: no, I think that you picked up where I was going with that because what I, what this has all made me think of a lot is the controversy recently with AI. And the way that people are trying to use AI to do things like translate, and a lot of times you'll hear I've read news stories about it being used before the newest version of the AIs like ChatGPT and stuff that people would use Google Translate to replace people who are translating more straightforward.

But now with the newest iteration of AI, I've definitely heard rumblings of people being upset that publishers are trying to use AI for all sorts of things that actually, , you need a human to be taking this in. , and so I don't know if you have it. I'm sure you have thoughts about AI.

, it's been a very hot topic and in the publishing industry.

Polly: Yeah, , it's a scary one, , because there's a lot that we don't understand, I guess, [00:26:00] and there is a lot of potential, which is quite scary. , in terms of translation, I definitely don't think it's anywhere near good enough to replace the human translation, at least not in, in literary works, because, if you've ever tried putting anything into Google Translate, for example, or things like that, it comes out and , it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

So I think you definitely need still to have a human, , there. And also, you do lose a lot of the , the poetry and the creativity of the language if you just chuck it into a, you know, an AI. And I think it is quite a scary prospect, but I don't think I'd really want to live in a world where these things are created by machines instead of humans.

It seems very strange to me. 

Elizabeth: Dystopian.

Polly: yeah, definitely. So me, I don't think it's [00:27:00] good enough, but I don't know where things are going to go.

Martha: Yeah, it definitely seems like something that needs a human element, and back to what we were talking about just a few minutes ago about, a translator not really being a co author, but they do deserve a lot of credit for the works that they have a hand in creating. I was just thinking about how we talk a lot on this podcast, Liz, about how no two readers read the same book.

Elizabeth: Mm.

Martha: so a translator being a reader who has their own interpretation of the book that's unique to them, you know, obviously there's some collaboration, like you said, but I just imagine that no two translations would ever be the same. Exactly, and there's been, books like Anna Karenina that have multiple translations, and it definitely changes with each translation, maybe just slightly, but [00:28:00] I just think it's really cool, and I just can't ever imagine AI having the same nuance, but, , like you said, who knows in what direction we're going.

It's 

Polly: Yeah. At this point it would be crazy , to give that over to AI, but, , I guess it depends , what you're valuing. It's obviously a massive time saver, but. I think you're losing far more than you stand to gain, it's definitely a hot topic in publishing at the moment.

Elizabeth: , there's a lot of news stories about. about actually having AI write the books, let alone translating them. There have been a couple of authors that have come out and say, I can't remember the names of any of them, but I definitely have seen stories in the publishing world recently about authors that say that they co wrote their book with AI or whatever.

And so I definitely know there are a lot of writers that are freaking out about the, this idea that publishers would opt to have AI write a book because like you said, it saves. [00:29:00] Time, it's more efficient. They don't have to deal with the messy human interactions of, , dealing with a neurotic author who, whatever, you know, but yeah, I , like you said, I don't want to get too off on a tangent on this, but it's like we're definitely losing something.

I just think that the worry is that the bottom line dollars and cents or, you know, pounds and pence or whatever your accounting is going to win out

Polly: yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's going to be an interesting few years and we'll see what direction it goes in. But I think. It needs to have some level of control or, , better understanding of the ways in which it's being used. Because at the moment it does seem quite, yeah, like a scary prospect, but we'll see.

, new technologies have , come out in the past and they haven't so far, , been kind of the death of, of human art. So. Fingers crossed this won't be it. But yeah, we'll, we'll see, we'll see how it goes.

Martha: we talked about this a little bit, but [00:30:00] specifically with Clara Reads Proust, did you talk to the author about his style beforehand and the themes of the book and the atmosphere he was going for?

Polly: , we had an early conversation and , we talked about it a little bit. But it wasn't, it wasn't a huge, hugely long conversation to be honest. He spoke about , his love of Proust and the way that he'd wanted to get that across in in the book. , but we didn't discuss in kind of the nitty gritty.

, I think he lives in the area where the book is set. So he's obviously able to give a lot of color to it, , which I think really comes through in the writing. , but he was very trusting. I think that he was happy to let it be passed over. And then we did work through, , a lot of stuff afterwards.

, it's always a different process. And I think I'm definitely learning things as I do more and more translations about the level of author involvement and, , [00:31:00] questions to ask at the offset rather than afterwards. 

Elizabeth: I was wondering along those lines about the narrative style of Clara Reads Proust. It's very different from at least the books that I read, American books or English language books maybe, with the way that, , it has a lot of different characters point of view, and you hop between 

those people's perspectives. And you have those chapters that are a little bit more traditional in length, and then you have those short almost vignettes between some of those chapters that are from the perspective of other people. And I was wondering if that is a style that is unique and specific to this author, or , if contemporary French literature is more in that style than maybe our English Because head hopping, to me, is something that as a writer, they tell me, , you're not supposed to do.

And so now I'm wondering if that's actually, , a cultural thing, you know?

Polly: I wouldn't say that I've done a lot of stuff like that before. So I think it is kind of a unique thing to [00:32:00] Carlier in this instance, and the vignette style as well, , is not something that I've seen that often, in French text.

So I think it probably is more of a stylistic choice , on his part. I think he wanted to create this kind of idea of , the literary salon, which is in, in Search of Lost Time, , which he's tried to do through the different characters in the book. So it's kind of channeling Proust in its form,

although, obviously, It's very unlike Proust in that Proust is, you know, huge, dense, paragraphs of long sentences, whereas this is a real, short and sweet version of that. I think that's an interesting contrast as well, that it's very accessible, , I think is one of the reasons that I really liked it, as well as the humour of the book as well.

Martha: Yeah, I really enjoyed the writing style, and I have to be honest, I haven't read Proust, so it wasn't because I connected his style with [00:33:00] Proust's style. But, I am a former hairdresser, and I thought that , the writing style , did a great job at mimicking how you feel when you're working in an actual hair salon, because you can't help but eavesdrop on all these conversations.

So you kind of drop into something even unintentionally, and it can be a very deep conversation. At the same time, it feels like. kind of surface level because you don't actually know this person and, and he really captured the way to have, how you learn so much about your coworkers by listening to their conversation with their clients. And it was just such, I feel like it's just a universal experience that all hairdressers can relate to. And I love that part of the book. I thought it was so great.

Polly: I haven't been a hairdresser, so I don't know exactly, but I've worked in a cafe and I think there are some similarities there, not with the client [00:34:00] interactions, I guess, but you'd hear snippets of conversations and then with the regulars, you feel like you know them. So I think it does do a really good job of getting into that role , the everyday life of , that kind of place.

Elizabeth: Yeah, so that's really interesting to hear that . The form is also mimicking a literary salon. Because I sort of wondered, Martha and I talked about how it mimics an actual hair salon so well, and I was wondering if he had actually worked in a salon or how he knew that, but maybe it was just coincidental because he was trying to mimic a literary salon and it just worked so well for both things.

Do you know if he's worked in a hair salon?

Polly: I actually don't know. And in fact, I'm gonna, I'm gonna email him tomorrow and I'm gonna, I've got a few questions. So yeah, I will let you know.

Elizabeth: Sounds good.

Martha: We could put it in the show notes.

Elizabeth: Interested to know, but that is really interesting to hear because I haven't read Proust either, in full disclosure. This book made me want to read him though, I will tell you that. So I feel like the author achieved one of the things that he was trying to get across is that [00:35:00] love of Proust and why it's so meaningful to so many people and what's great about it.

And I definitely feel like he achieved that because I ended the book being like, maybe I could read in search of lost time.

Polly: Yeah, I mean, I'm embarrassed and I also haven't read Proust. , I've read some of it, but not all of it. But I also had this feeling of like, oh, I would really like to, to read it. And I, I think I will, but at the moment it's not really compatible with my reading pile as an editor. So it's on hold, but I think the book is really great at picking out the bits that really make it unique and the work of art that it is.

Martha: I had that, the same thought of like, man, now this definitely piqued my interest. And then I picture Liz and I talking about what we're reading every episode. And it's like, we're still reading in search of lost time.

Elizabeth: Well, Martha, it makes me think about how, uh, Polly, I read [00:36:00] Middlemarch. Was it last year or the year before? I think it was the year before.

Martha: I think it was last year. Cause you mentioned it. Maybe you were just finishing it up. I don't remember.

Elizabeth: Well, whatever the case may be, it took me like six months to read. And so it totally tanked , my Goodreads number of books reading goal. And , every time I would talk to Martha about what I was reading, I'm like, still reading Middlemarch. But I loved it. And it was really, meaningful reading experience.

But yeah, , those books that are so long, we don't really have those anymore. And they really do take a level of commitment and time investment that I feel like our modern lives are not designed for.

Polly: Yeah. I think, , this book is definitely good if you're in the sort of, yeah, modern life, , because it's, it is very short and very easy to read, but yeah, I've just received a copy of, , Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver, which is like over 500 pages and I [00:37:00] really want to read it, but I'm sort of like, okay.

I need to save this because I just, I can't do it right now, but I do feel like it's been a while since I really sank my teeth into a long text and there's something really nice about being immersed in a whole world, which you can get in shorter books as well. But yeah, I think a long one is a different experience for sure.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it is definitely. Demon Copperhead is supposed to be amazing. It's a retelling of David 

Polly: David Copperfield.

Elizabeth: right? Yeah. So, yeah, of course, Dickens is famously verbose. So it's not surprising that it's 500 pages.

Martha: So getting back to Clara and getting started with that project. How do you approach a project like this at the start? Can you talk a little bit about your process? We kind of touched on it a bit, but maybe a little more detail. 

Polly: So I'll read the book, , and then maybe read it [00:38:00] again because it's a different thought process, I think, when you're initially reading it and you're trying to work out if you want to publish it compared to when you're trying to work out the ins and outs , as a translation.

So yeah, I would read the whole thing through and then. I mean, I did it over several months and would take each section and just go through, what I could do, read through each bit before translating it so that you can kind of get a sense , of where it's going. , Because I have before just gone straight into something and then without context.

You find that you've done it completely wrong or the tense is wrong or something like that. So yeah, having a kind of picture of where it's going is essential, I think. So I would do that and I probably do, because they're so, the little chapters are so short, I would probably do a few of those in each session. Do [00:39:00] an initial pass and then the next day go back and look at it and refine it a bit So I don't know if this is a typical way of working but That's how I would do it. And then once I'd done the whole thing, I'd probably go through it all again. , But yeah, it's, for me, translation is a very kind of flexible, , moving thing.

And it's kind of never finished until it's finished, in my experience. That's the general process that I would go for. Cause also , if you try and do too much in one go, you kind of just, you, you can't do it. There's too much in your head. So yeah, important to take breaks and vary tasks.

Martha: hmm. Definitely. Mm

Elizabeth: that makes sense because getting back to what we were talking about earlier, you're using so many different parts of your brain, right? , you're using your translator brain, but you're also using that sort of artistic creative side. So I could imagine that,

Polly: yeah, , your head [00:40:00] kind of hurt after a day kind of wrestling with, , French and English and trying to make the two of them work together. , But yeah, it's a very satisfying process, I think, when you've gone through something. I like the editing part, actually, because you have a version that you can then just improve and, refine it until it's, you know, Is what you want it to be, basically.

Elizabeth: yeah, which also mimics. What a lot of writers say about writing, you get the shitty first draft out. And then the fun part is, The revision process where you have something to work with, , you have your lump of clay and then you can refine it.

Polly: Mm. Yeah, and actually , the first page, I think, of Clara, the first paragraph I found really difficult for some reason, and that was one that I definitely didn't, finish working on it until the very end. And I, I don't know why, Maybe because it's the first paragraph and it's not [00:41:00] situated in a thing and you feel like it has to be, a really powerful beginning, but yeah, that one, I was stuck on it for a while.

I had several drafts and I had it, but it wasn't quite right until quite later on in the process, I'd say.

Elizabeth: I mean, which again, I think mimics, I know that writers sort of obsess over the first line and the first page because it's so important to get readers into the story. So I think that makes total sense from the perspective of a writer. 

I also have realized that in our conversation, which has been really absorbing and interesting, we haven't actually talked about what Clara Reads Proust is about specifically.

We've talked around it a lot. , so Martha and I both read it in preparation for talking to you. And the way I would describe it is obviously the main character is Clara. She is in her mid twenties. And she works as a hairdresser, , in what feels like a sort of dead end job, , but she doesn't know what else [00:42:00] she wants, basically.

And a man comes into the salon , and leaves this volume of Proust, the first volume of In Search of Lost Time. And she doesn't read it right away, but eventually picks it up and reads it and goes through what felt very familiar to me as a quarter life crisis is the way that I would describe it, where , you realize in your mid to late 20s, okay, I'm not a kid anymore.

I'm not being directed in any way by other people. If you went to college, or university, you're out of university, right? Or if you did any type of, , vocational training, you probably have gotten that done. Or maybe you're just in the whatever job that you happened into when you went out on your own.

And you realize, oh, I'm actually the person who decides for myself what I want my life to be. And I need to, , take some type of intentional role in that. At least that's how it felt to me. And that felt very much like what this. Book [00:43:00] was, following Clara as she figured out what she actually wanted her life to be and what she was passionate about.

, and so it's a sort of coming of age story in that way, but I think it's a little bit older than we typically think of a coming of age story. I think of it as that quarter life crisis. I don't know if you would expand upon , that summary at all.

Polly: no, I think that's I think that's fairly accurate. I've described it as a coming of age story because I think that is what it is, and think what Carlier does really well is describing that, that feeling of the experience of your mind being slowly changed a little bit and then you end up somewhere and you're like, oh, this is actually not really what I want anymore and opening doors into like a new, a new future really, which is the experience That Clara has, and I think something that really resonates with me and I think with a lot of other early readers is this thing of it being a book and I think a lot of people have had a similar [00:44:00] experience with a different book, , where it's had a really transformative power over them and made them see things differently.

, so yeah, I'd say it's a coming of age story. I think also one of my favorite things about it is actually the other characters and those little portraits, are so well done, and you feel like you really, it's a very short book, but I feel like you really understand the characters just from the way that they behave and these little observations.

So I, I love that part of it. I think he gets a lot of the people's quirks across, I think, and the little habits that people have that you just notice, but I think I think that's a good summary, a coming of age story about, yeah, the transformative power of books and yeah, and also chance encounters.

And for her it's with, this book that was just left by somebody. 

Martha: Yeah, 

, I loved how it did such a good job at illustrating [00:45:00] the change in Clara and how she outgrew her life in a way. She outgrew the people she was surrounding herself with, her job, and the courage it took for her to really step out of that role and

try something else. Mm hmm.

Which I thought could be really inspiring for someone who reads it and I just related so specifically as a hairdresser who Had the same sort of existential crisis and was like is am I gonna be a hairdresser forever? There's nothing wrong with that. Some people love that but for me I was like I gotta, I gotta change something and I ended up finding a different career path.

I don't want to spoil too much, but

Polly: , yeah, I think there's a lot of factors that kind of gradually help Clara to work out the next thing., I think it's an experience that a lot of people can relate to, , in many ways, , whether or not you were a [00:46:00] hairdresser or, 

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Polly: just realize that whatever job you were doing or whatever life you were living wasn't quite the right fit anymore.

I think , it's quite a, a versatile, , story.

Martha: Mm

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't a hairdresser, but I had , the job that I happened into, 'cause it was the first one that I got after I graduated from university that I did for about seven years. And then in my, , mid late twenties, I was like, what Martha just described. I was like, oh wait, is this gonna be my life?

, am I gonna just do this thing that I just sort of happened into? And I decided, no, I wanted to do something different. So, yeah, I do feel like that is a really common experience that people have. We also talk on this podcast all the time about the transformative. power of books and how, they are entertainment and we're big advocates for them, just being light entertainment, if that's what you enjoy.

But also, there's so much evidence that they really can change people's minds. They can make [00:47:00] people, , more empathetic to the perspective of people who are different from them. They can help you process things in your life that you haven't processed. , we talked about that research in the book hangovers episode.

Where, if a, if a book really stays with you, that is probably a sign, that, it's helping you to work through something that your mind, was stuck on or hasn't processed or worked through for whatever reason. So yeah, they're just so powerful and I love that it is illustrating that.

Polly: Yeah, I think it's also nice that feels like a breath of fresh air, I think, the world feels a bit scary right now, and it's nice to have a a feel good book that is, , I mean, obviously it's not all plain sailing, but I think on the whole, , you come away feeling good, 

Martha: Mm

Polly: was also, made translating it really enjoyable, because I really enjoyed translating it, actually, and being inside the world of the book was really, really nice.

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. [00:48:00] I 100 percent agree with it being like you leave it feeling good. And I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the process of it. Were you the one who acquired it? , were you the editor who, who found it? Or , who got the query for it and acquired it? Or was that a decision that someone else made?

Polly: So it was, , kind of a collective decision. , we were shown it by a French publisher who we have worked with for several years and they said this would be a really good fit for you. , we previously published, , The Elegance of the Hedgehog by Muriel Barbry, which was a huge bestseller. And also Antoine Lorrain, who does a similar kind light, , enjoyable, slightly quirky reads.

, so she recommended it to us. And then,, We weren't 100 percent sure, and I think I read it and I really liked it, and my colleague, Claire, who you spoke to, absolutely loved it, and I think the combination of us [00:49:00] two, both really enjoying it, , pushed it over the edge, and we, , we went for it, and I think by the time we were offered, we were both like, oh no, if we don't get it now, we're gonna be really sad, , But yeah, it was quite a long process, and it wasn't an immediate kind of decision at all.

Elizabeth: Well, I'm glad you took the leap. I really liked it. And I know that other people will too. 

And so just to remind listeners, Claire Reads Proust by Stéphane Carlier is coming out in the UK on March 28th, so it will be out when this episode airs, and then in North America it's coming out on May 21st.

Go pick up a copy, in your local indie bookstore if possible. Are there also other formats of it, Polly? Is there going to be an audiobook or anything, or is it just the physical format?

Polly: I will have to check for that, actually. I know there'll be an e book. I'm not sure about audio yet. , can I let you guys know, 

Martha: Yep. We could put it in the show notes thanks so much,

Polly.

Polly: Thank you. , , it was really nice to [00:50:00] talk about it, this has been great.

Elizabeth: Of course. Thanks for joining us.

Martha: Yeah. Thank you.

 Thanks again to Polly for joining us. We really enjoyed our conversation today. And make sure you're subscribed. , wherever you get your podcasts, 

you can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at all books allowed pod and also give Gallic books a follow at Gallic G A L L I C books I think their work is really cool and I'm thankful that they're bringing French novels to U. S. readers and translating them for us. So read on my friends. 

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