All Books Aloud

What is the IMLS and why should we care if it is dismantled?

• Elizabeth Brookbank & Martha Brookbank • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Have you heard about the IMLS (Institute of Museum and Library Services) in the news lately? An Executive Order in mid-March ordered it be "eliminated to the maximum extent consistent with applicable law" and there has been a lot of conversation about it since. But this agency was relatively low profile politically until recently, so many people might not know much about it. 

On this episode we talk about what the IMLS is, what it does (and what it does not do), its history and mission, what our communities stand to lose with its elimination, and what you can do to support libraries and museums. You won't want to miss this important and relevant conversation! 

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Books we're reading in this episode:  

  • Murder in Postscript by Mary Winters
  • Tom Lake by Ann Patchett
  • Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte
  • The Man Who Died Twice by Richard Osman (Thursday Murder Club #2)
  • Brisingr by Christopher Paolini (The Inheritance Cycle #3) 
  • Evvie Drake Starts Over by Linda Holmes

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Sources:

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How to help:

EveryLibrary petition: https://www.everylibrary.org/statementimls2025 

ALA Call on Congress to Protect IMLS phone script: https://app.oneclickpolitics.com/campaign-page?cid=2CzAyJUB9sorxFLO5KSZ&lang=en 

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Intro and outro music: "The Chase," by Aves.

Do you have thoughts, questions, or ideas for future episodes? Email us at allbooksaloudpod@gmail.com. And if you want to learn more about the podcast, visit our website at allbooksaloudpod.com.

If you liked this episode, please consider leaving us a review to help us reach more listeners.

And if you'd like to see more bookish content from Martha & Elizabeth, follow us on Instagram and TikTok @allbooksaloudpod.

Read on!

[All Books Aloud intro and theme music]

Martha: Hey Liz, how are you?

Elizabeth: Hi Martha. I'm doing pretty well. How are you?

Martha: I am great. What are you reading right now?

Elizabeth: I am, reading a couple of books as usual. So my print book, I actually just finished it this morning because I was almost at the end last night, but just couldn't keep my eyes open to read the rest, which I don't know what that says about the book, but I did wake up this morning wanting to finish it.

So I finished it. It's [00:01:00] called Murder in Postscript by Mary Winters. , I would describe it as a regency romance crossed with a cozy mystery. It's about a widow who after her husband dies, starts working as, an agony aunt for a newspaper. Have you heard that phrase before?

I don't know. I think it's a very British phrase, but basically. That's what advice columnists were called British people actually still call them that sometimes, but , it's a very Victorian era thing. I don't know if it started in the Victorian era, but it was very popular then that, , mostly women would write into newspapers with, everyday problems, big and small problems the same way that advice columnists are now, A lot of times it would be about relationships or about just everyday things.

And they were described as their agonies and so the mostly women who were replied to them, or sometimes it actually wasn't even really a woman, but it was the persona was a woman because, , they were perceived as more caring. And as I'm describing it, there's all sorts of really interesting.

[00:02:00] Dynamics at play in that. But, , sometimes , it wouldn't actually be even one person, it would just be a persona, the agony aunt of the newspaper column. So anyway, she's an agony aunt and gets these letters and replies to them, and then she gets a letter that tells her that, , the person who wrote the letter witnessed a murder.

And so it , starts off the adventure. , it was cute. It wasn't anything to write home about. , I read the whole thing. So it was at least a solid three star. I think it was fun, 

Martha: sometimes those kind of books are good. Palette cleansers.

Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah, because , the last book that I listened to that was in a similar genre was that Regency Romance. . By Sophie Irwin that I loved so much I was in a little bit of a book hang over. I tried to start listening to two other audio books and couldn't get into them, and that is usually a sign that I'm in a book hangover when I just can't get into something else.

But I finally did get into another audio book, which is Tom Lake by Ann Patchett. I'm listening to that right now. And that was a recommendation from you. I'm really liking [00:03:00] that it's narrated by Meryl Streep, who is amazing, obviously knows what she's doing,

Martha: not British.

Elizabeth: not British, but, an amazing actor obviously, and , knows not to overdo it because that is my problem with a lot of the American narrators. 

I don't know why. It's only Americans that I've run into that do this. It doesn't seem like a particularly American trait necessarily, but. There's just an overdoing of the narration that is what bothers me a lot of the time. It's this bombastic radio announcer feel.

Elizabeth: And Meryl Streep doesn't do that at all. And the reason that I was gonna say it's funny is because as you know, or anyone who's read Tom Lake, , in the beginning especially, is about our town and how, how, , the stage director role in the play our town, can be so badly done. Basically the main character is watching all of these people who are auditioning for the play do a really bad job by overdoing it or by ruining it.

And so she gets the part by just. [00:04:00] Not acting basically, is the way that she put it. And I feel like that's what makes a good audio narration is that , you're not doing it as if you're doing an audio narration. You're just doing it as if you're reading a story or telling a story to someone. And Meryl Streep is very, very good at that.

She's just telling me a story, , I don't feel like she's doing a performance quote, unquote.

Martha: Yeah, I think , it's a balance because I've run into certain actresses like Maggie Gyllenhaal read, Anna 

Corina, and . She was just reading it like she was telling a story and it was so monotone and that book is so long, it was just so boring. But I know what you're talking about.

I feel like it's similar to how in adaptations they try to overplay it to try and capture the audience's attention or something. So maybe that's part of it. But there's a middle ground where you hit the sweet spot of acting a little bit, but not overdoing it like Jim Dale and the Harry Potter or Meryl Streep.

I think there's a middle of the road

that works well. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. you're [00:05:00] totally right because actually the way that I'm describing it is like, oh no, you're just reading it like you're a normal person. But of course that's not what's happening. It's actually the result of a lot of talent and a lot of work, it just comes off as effortless. It's not actually effortless 

reading. 

Cause she's an expert 

in her craft. 

Martha: Yeah., 

Elizabeth: So that is what I'm reading. And also we're still, reading Jane Eyre. Al and I are still reading Jane Eyre,

Martha: What do you think of Tom Lake so far?

Elizabeth: I love it. , I remember you saying that it felt slow for you, , and that it took you longer to read.

And I can totally see that because it is a slow, burning story, in the way that a lot of literary fiction is it's about life. there is a plot, right? Which is the story of how she, well, it's the story of her life in a lot of ways.

, the narrator mom. , but the story of how she, had a youthful fling with this famous man. , but really it's about family and mothers [00:06:00] and daughters and. The pandemic, right? Which prompted us all to have such existential angst. And so those big issues are a little bit like you think about the writing more while you're reading it, and it causes you to reflect on your own life.

And that is not something that you can really just devour. So I can see that. , but I am really enjoying it and it's reminding me actually of why I really love literary fiction because there are lines that Ann patchett has where it takes my breath away. The way that she's able to capture a feeling or a moment that is so relatable, even though the actual situation is not something that I've experienced before.

And , some of her descriptions are the metaphors or the comparisons that she used to uses to describe things are so original that as a writer I'm just like, oh my God, this is, you know, she is also an expert at her craft, speaking of someone who's been [00:07:00] doing it for a long 

time and is absolutely wonderful.

So that is really inspiring to me as a writer and is reminding me, okay, there is actually a reason why I liked these books and maybe what I've been finding is that I can get into a literary fiction book as long as that's not all I'm reading. If I give myself the palette cleansers, , I think that's a good phrase that you used.

, if I give myself the more fun rompy type books to give myself a break, then every so often I can start peppering

in a literary fiction again. That's the mode I'm in right now. I think.

Martha: I think that's a great balance. , Tom Lake is a beautiful book. If you're talking about it in story doorway, context, you have obviously the language. It's very character heavy. It spans almost her whole life and even the setting, because it takes place on their family. Cherry Tree 

Orchard, 

Elizabeth: fruit orchard. [00:08:00] 'cause they have 

apples and pears too, but it's 

mainly cherries. 

Martha: Like you said, she does such a good job describing the setting. You feel like you're there, even though you've never been anywhere like it in your life before. You can just picture it.

Elizabeth: It's one of those books where the main story doorway, I would say is character. I feel like I can choose a main one, but I do think that they're all 

there, Which is, like you said, maybe that's the sign of of a genius book, is that it has all of the story doorways.

But yeah, , apparently northern , Michigan has a ton of fruit orchards, which I didn't know,

, the sensory detail that she gets. And none of it is cliche, , it's all just this. Oh God. It's really beautiful.

Martha: Yeah. I love Anne Patchett.

Elizabeth: Yeah, me too. What are you reading right now?

Martha: I am listening to Brisingr by Christopher pe Palani P Palini, Christopher Palini, I think, I don't, I might be butchering [00:09:00] that, but he wrote The Inheritance Cycle. So Eldest, Eragon, Brisingr, and Inheritance, are the books. It's a young adult fantasy. It's all about dragons and stuff like that.

It's the one that Dustin, our sister's husband Dustin, told me to read when we visited last year, and he let me, yeah, he let me borrow all of the books. So I brought all of his books from Montana home with me, and I read the first one on paper. But I just knew it would take me so long to get through if I read all of them that way, that I decided to switch to audiobook, even though I like the experience.

But they're just very long books. I'm on the third one now. I'm really enjoying it. The narration is good. apparently this third book is where a lot of readers decide not to finish the series because it's long and it has less action than the previous two books. [00:10:00] But that's part of why I decided to listen to it, because I knew it could take a long time to get through, but I'm liking it.

I haven't really noticed that this third book is any different. He started writing the series when he was 19. So the first book is very, , you can tell it was written by a young man. , but as he progresses in the series and gets older, I think the writing is just getting better. So that's cool. 

Elizabeth: that is the same as Sarah J Mass, isn't it? Didn't she? I remember you talking and I thought that this was a really interesting experience, even though it's not necessarily intentional. The experience of reading a series as the author grows up and matures is so interesting to me.

Martha: Yeah, she started writing Throne of Glass as a teenager. I forget. It's sometime between 16 and 19 I think. Similarly. And , as the series goes on, yeah, the writing gets better.

You see them mature in front of your eyes, which is a cool experience.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that is really cool. Okay. This is [00:11:00] kind of cheating, but you talking about that and the way that you're switching to audio so that you can get through the series , it reminded me that before I started listening to Tom Lake, actually there was another audio book that I listened to that was called The Man Who Died Twice by Richard Osman.

That's the second in the Thursday Murder Club series. And you know, my thing about series is right, I don't like series, but I feel like I compelled to tell you this because I actually really loved the second book in this series and I now wanna listen to the whole series. So I feel like this series is the exception that proves the rule.

Because it's all the same characters and they have the same dynamic and they're solving a murder. That's the thing, the Thursday murder club is this group of, old people who live in a retirement community that solve murders in the English countryside. And it's so cute. , but it wasn't boring.

 It was so good. In fact, I almost feel like I liked it more than the first book. Even though the dynamic was the [00:12:00] same and the setup of the story was the same. So it turns out that that's not actually what my problem is with it. It's just that for whatever reason, when I've read it in other series, it doesn't feel as fresh.

And there's just something about the way that Richard Osman writes these characters and the stories it's just so good. , it's such a good cozy mystery. I didn't. Guess the ending. I was surprised several times.

There's also really cute subplots going on with the characters and all the characters are entirely themselves and . Unique, and they all have different voices, and it's very clever and very well done. And so I listened to it really quickly, which is why I didn't even get to tell you about

it, but I, when I was listening to it, I had this thought of , oh, I need to tell Martha that I've finally found a series where I don't actually get bored with the second book.

Martha: that's great. So maybe it's not just that you don't like series as a rule, it's just, it has to be engaging and good storytelling and, , they all have to be good. Unlike, you know, last episode when we were talking about Onyx [00:13:00] Storm, unfortunately.

But you know, even saying that, I'm still gonna read the next two books, so 

Elizabeth: Yeah, if you're invested in the series, I get that. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you telling us what you were reading, but it just made me think of that.

Martha: No, that's okay. I have wanted to try Cozy Mystery and I still haven't, so I need to put all of these on my TBR, give them a try. 

So my physical book that I'm reading right now is evie Drake Starts Over by Linda Holmes. And this is one that you read and you recommended. I try. And I found it at the thrift store for $2. So I picked it up and I finished a book. I finished a just a romance and I wanted to start something new, but my book club books were just not doing it for me.

Martha: 'cause the last two months we've been doing nonfiction and it's just so hard for me to get into a nonfiction right now. So I went to my bookshelf and I was like, what have I not read? 'cause I should read something I [00:14:00] have before I go buy a new book. And Evie Drake caught my eye. So I started it and it captured me right off the bat.

 She definitely, within that first chapter, within the first paragraph, I was like, okay, I want to know what happens, which is great. So I'm only like 25 pages in, but I think it's gonna be one of my favorite books of the year. If I had to guess.

Elizabeth: Oh, yay. I am so glad. Oh God, I love that book. We shouldn't talk about it though, 'cause you're so in the beginning. I don't wanna spoil anything.

Martha: Maybe our next episode

Elizabeth: Yeah, 

Martha: can circle back.

Elizabeth: sounds good.

Martha: Okay, Liz, so let's get into our topic today. Do you want to introduce it for us?

Elizabeth: Yes, sure. I will introduce it. , we are going to talk about the IMLS, which has been in the news a lot recently. , IMLS stands for the Institute of Museum and Library Services, and we are going to talk about what it is and what it does and why we should all care if it is dismantled, [00:15:00] which is essentially what's happening to it. 

Because there recently was an executive order signed by the president to essentially, not get rid of it because he's not actually able to do that, but basically dismantle it as much as he's able to, without congress getting rid of it because it was a congressionally created, thing. 

Martha: So why are we talking about this?

Elizabeth: yes. , that's a good question. , the obvious , is that I am a librarian, so this is a very much my world and is essentially all I've been hearing about in my profession since this happened. And even before that, the executive order wasn't a surprise. , during President Trump's first term, he actually talked a lot about getting rid of the IMLS, even though he didn't get rid of it in his first term, , he actually ended up signing the bill to it comes up every five years to renew the charter , and he did that in his first term, but it's not been a secret that it's something that eventually would [00:16:00] be, , on his list to get rid of.

So obviously it's something that I care about a lot, but I will be honest that I had some hesitancy about whether we should talk about it on the podcast because I worry that it was a little bit outside of our scope. , Obviously we talk about libraries a lot because I'm a librarian, but I don't know, I was a little worried about, this being me turning the podcast into my own personal soapbox or something like that.

But as we were talking about it, I realized that it is actually well within the purview of what we talk about on the podcast because the whole reason that we do the podcast , is that we're passionate about. Reading and what we talk about is a lot is that we think that reading should be something that's accessible and available to everyone.

Whether that is, you being able to, and feeling validated in listening to whatever format of book you want, whether it's , listening to an audio book or an ebook or a print book or whatever. But also, we've talked a lot about the [00:17:00] ways that libraries make reading more accessible to all sorts of people.

And , , I know that we're both big supporters of libraries, even though we use them in different capacities. So I also would love to hear from you, why you think that we are talking about this.

Martha: Yeah, I think exactly what you just said that part of the impetus of our podcast was just debunking myths about reading and encouraging people to read in a way that was fun and engaging and made them read more. So access to more books for everyone is something that we both strongly believe in 

and I think, let me see if I can say this in a way that makes sense. It's kind of a full circle theory, if you will, that one of the issues with people who might not see the good of a library is that you don't necessarily have the empathy to put yourself in someone else's shoes who [00:18:00] might really need the library services.

, just 'cause we don't all use the library in the same way, or all quote unquote, need a library. It doesn't mean other people in our community. Don't. And so reading increases empathy. You know, if, if you don't have the empathy to realize that libraries are important to people besides yourself, it's like, well, maybe you should be reading more.

So that's , something that I've thought about a lot in preparing for this episode is that a lot of the things that we might disagree about in our communities, reading can only bring us closer together. And that might be a very, romanticized . Idea. But I don't know. I think it's true.

Elizabeth: No, I think it's true too, and that's actually something that I never even thought about. Connecting it with the way that reading increases empathy, and one of the things that seems to be lacking in this type of move is empathy. I think that's a really great point.

Martha: Mm-hmm. And. As kids growing up, we both loved going to the library, checking out [00:19:00] books. , it's part of the way that as a child you start to develop your own interests and personality. , there were great story times and programs for summer when we were kids and as adults, , I can speak for myself.

I haven't used it as much as when I was a kid, but I know a lot of other people in the community that do, and the libraries are really important to them. So that's why I think it's important for us to talk about it.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think that, , talking about how we both used the library a lot as kids is a really important point to make because not only did we love the library, but we needed the library to turn into the readers and lifelong learners that we are today. Right. Because we, , I'm not gonna overstate our financial situation.

I don't feel like we were poor, but we were definitely solidly working class and our parents wouldn't have been able to afford to buy us all the books that we wanted to read that we ended up reading from the library. . So the concept of needing the library, I think a [00:20:00] lot of times , it feels a little extreme.

Like we're talking just about people who, don't have a house needing the library or people who are really in extreme poverty needing the library. And of course they do for all sorts of reasons, but it's not only people in those extreme circumstances that need the library, it's also a middle class mom who has a voracious reader as a child and can't keep up with buying all those books.

. Or doesn't want to, 

Martha: Yeah. Besides the financial aspect of it, most parents don't wanna have. Their rooms full of kids' books that then they're gonna have to refresh at every new grade level. Like it's just not practical to buy every book brand new that your kids are gonna read, especially if you have multiple children.

And just from a practicality standpoint for space and all of that, the library is so essential for families.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And I mean, I think that for adults too, we've talked before about how I don't need to use the library to read, but , I want to read more books than my house could contain. And I don't [00:21:00] want to buy books from Amazon, quite frankly. I don't like buying books from Amazon. And, , that's a choice that I'm making as an adult to use the library instead of some of these other ways that I could access books.

. I do think that people should have empathy for people who really actually need the library, like don't have any other option. But that shouldn't be the only reason to want a library. It's a choice that we're able to make for various different reasons.

And I think that Americans like having choices. I mean, I like to have choices and that also reminds me of something else that a library does for a community, which is that it functions as a third space. , and a third space is a phrase and a concept that is actually talked about in the, scholarly research literature a lot.

 I've seen TikTok videos about it as well, so it's not contained to the scholarly literature, but when I was doing my. Research into, the leisure reading habits that we talked about in another episode of university students. I came across this concept of , the [00:22:00] third space.

And the idea of this concept is that , your first space is your home, your second space or place. A lot of times it's space. Sometimes it's place, third place or third space. Your first place is your home, your second place is work. So those are the two places that you spend most of your time. And then the idea of a third place is a place that you go the rest of your time, in your free time,

 The places that you would choose to spend time. So things like a coffee shop or, , a park or a bookstore maybe, or a library, , where you can just go and be. Not necessarily a place that you go to do something specific, but a place where you can just spend time. And libraries are one of the very few third places left in our society that you don't have to pay

for. So you know, the idea of a community center or, there actually used to be a [00:23:00] lot more of these. But now it's mostly the places that you can go are places that you have to pay for. Even a coffee shop, you have to buy something most of the time to spend time there.

Right. Even if you think about a mall, when we were kids, we used to just be able to go to the mall and hang out, but malls don't really exist anymore.

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Right? So just this idea that you could spend time in a place that's not your home and not work without having to buy something is a concept that is rapidly fading from our society, but I think is a really valuable thing.

And libraries are one of the main third places that we have left.

Martha: Yeah, as a community, if you're not inviting people to your home or being invited into other people's homes, where are you gonna spend time together? You can go out to a bar or restaurant, but you're spending a lot of money. And as we all know right now, things are expensive and these [00:24:00] third places that don't cost money are just very valuable from a community standpoint, I think.

And something else that I think is worth mentioning, , it's a little bit of going backwards, talking about the benefit of libraries, but it's also the sustainable choice, which we've talked about a little bit on the podcast before, that like you said, you don't wanna buy your books from Amazon. , regardless of where you're buying it from, if you're just buying it to read it once. It's a lot more sustainable to read a book from a library that multiple people can read, and it gets more use out of it. So it's not that buying books are bad. We've talked about that a lot before. I buy a lot of books as well. But if you're conscientious at all about sustainability, that's another way that libraries are great.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And again, thinking about that, , like you just said, it's very much not saying that that is what you should do, but that is a choice that you have when you have a library. Whereas if you don't have a [00:25:00] library in your town, then that choice is gone for people who wanna make it. You have to buy a book, if you wanna read a book, if there's not a library, you know?

And that seems bad.

Martha: Yeah. 

That 

seems It does. It seems, yeah. It seems very dystopian in a way to. To even think about that.

Elizabeth: And I do also wanna say that I certainly am not trying to be exaggerated in terms of what is going to happen from the IMLS going away because I don't think that immediately what's going to happen is that you won't have a library in your town. But I do think that one of the possible downstream effects of this is that there will be towns that don't have libraries.

As we go on, we'll talk about the effects of this. , and I'm not trying to exaggerate the effects. I think that there is a lot of rhetoric about. The things that this administration does that are a little bit overblown and trying to scare people.

And I don't think that there's any need [00:26:00] to do that because there are like some very real effects that are gonna take place that are unfortunate and things that people don't want if they understood what they were. , so I don't actually think there's any need to exaggerate it.

so that is my intention, is to just talk about the facts.

Martha: Yeah, that sounds good. Well, let's go back a little bit. , , you already gave a little bit of an intro about what the IMLS is, but let's dig a little bit deeper, maybe about its history and background.

Elizabeth: Okay, sure. The IMLS. I know a lot about it in the way that I interact with it as a librarian, but I actually , did have to do some research to find out, , about its history. And so as always, the, , links to the places where I got this information will be, , in the show notes.

 So the Institute of Museum and Library Services was established in 1996, , for people who , were not alive in 1996, the president in [00:27:00] 1996 was Bill Clinton, who was a democrat. But the Congress at the time was a Republican Congress.

 Meaning that the Republicans were in the majority, of course, there were both Democrats and Republicans in the Congress, but it was a Republican led Congress. , so I think that in and of itself, knowing that is important for people to understand because the IMLS was not an overly political entity.

It was a bipartisan thing, , that both republicans and Democrats in 1996 supported, which, was 30 years ago, right?

30 years ago. 

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: So that was 30 years ago, which, , might feel like a long time to some people, but it wasn't that long ago. , and at the time it's. And still its mission is to advance support and empower America's museums, libraries, and related organizations through grant making research and policy development.

And I will say that the grant making part of that is by leaps and bounds, the [00:28:00] biggest part of what the IMLS does. , . It funds grants for research and it has, , policy development as part of its mission, but it doesn't make any decisions or have any direct power over libraries and museums.

, it doesn't tell libraries and museums what to do. Libraries and museums are very much controlled by either a local school board, if it's a school library or a local library board. If it's a local, , public library or the, . Board of trustees of the university, if it's an academic library, , those are the people that make decisions about what the library does.

I think that's a really important thing for people to understand because, if you don't like the way that the library in your town or at the university in your town or whatever is functioning, then the place to go, , is to those local bodies and to your local representatives. It's not to a federal agency like this one.[00:29:00] 

It is a funding body mainly. It uses, , a relatively small splice of taxpayer money, very small, , in the context of the whole federal, budget to make sure that the funding for libraries is distributed equitably. So not equally but equitably, , across all 50 states and, , also territories in Puerto Rico and things like that.

. And that's really the function of a lot of federal agencies. I think that people have the idea that the federal government is in charge of these things that it has departments or offices of, but that really is usually not the case. The Department of Education, for instance, is not in charge of schools.

Schools are very much run by local school boards and are impacted by state policies. They're not being run or told what to do by the Department of Education. Most of the time that is about giving funding to the states and making sure that even states that don't have a really wealthy taxpayer base still get [00:30:00] funding for their schools and in this case for their libraries. 

And, , make sure that less. Less advantaged populations in those states, like , students who have disabilities, or in this case like libraries that are in really rural areas that might again, not have as rich of a taxpayer base or as many taxpayers that are paying for it, still have enough money to have a library.

Elizabeth: Right. So they're there to make sure that it's not just some of the states or some of the areas that have access to things like books in a library or like history and culture in a museum.

Martha: I do have one question, about grants. I've done a little bit of work, , serving on a board of a nonprofit, and I do know that some grants have certain stipulations, right? So if you apply for a grant, sometimes it's for certain things and you can only spend that money on certain things.

However, your library most likely would not apply for a grant [00:31:00] that didn't serve its community base, right? So like if there was a specific grant that they could apply for that was like. To get a new roof for the library or something through the IMLS, you can only spend that money on the new roof.

You can't then take that money and use it on something else. So there probably are some stipulations based on what grants the libraries are applying for. Right. But the overarching governing body of the library, like you said, is your local community and however the, your local government runs.

Elizabeth: I'm gonna say yes and no because some of the IMLS funding is given out through grants. Directly from the IMLS. And , in those cases, what you're saying is true, the grants are very competitive. They're very well vetted, and they have a high level of accountability. And you can only send them on the project that you apply for.

And, , yeah, all of what you just [00:32:00] said is true, but in, . 2022, for instance, the IMLS had a $257.2 million budget and of that 168.8 million, , so that's the proportion that I'm talking about. The majority of the funding is given, , out through its grants to states program,

Martha: Mm.

Elizabeth: and that is distributed based on population of the state.

So that's what I'm talking about with, it gives money equitably, not equally, right? So it will give more money to a state that has more people in it. , but that money that goes to the state doesn't come with those same stipulations. My State of Oregon, for example, gets about $2.5 million annually from the IMLS, , which is by the way, about a quarter of the state library's annual budget.

So when we're talking about the effects of this. It doesn't mean that we're not gonna have a state library anymore, but a quarter of the budget is gonna have some serious [00:33:00] consequences. So , Oregon gets about two and a half million dollars a year, and then what it does with that is that it then grants that money out to Oregon libraries who apply.

So in that case, even though the money comes from the IMLS, the local libraries in the state are actually reporting to the state library. So again, it's not the federal government that's putting the stipulations on the grant,

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: it's the state government.

So , even in the case where your local library is getting a grant, it's very likely that they're not actually beholden to the IMLS.

They're beholden to your state

government. So. Most of the time what I was saying is still true. Even if they get a grant from the IMLS, if you're not happy with the grant, it's probably your state government that you need to talk to about it. Not the IMLS. Right

Martha: And this is why I think we've even mentioned this on the podcast before, or maybe it's just in my personal life, I talk about this a lot. When you are [00:34:00] voting your local elections are more important in terms of how government affects your day-to-day life, and this is an example of that.

Elizabeth: yeah, very much. So. Going back just a little bit, , , just to finish up the background on the IMLS, it was. Established in 1996, but the idea of it as a concept was not created in 1996.

In 1996, it actually combined services that were part of other government agencies. , the National Commission on Libraries and Information Science and the Institute of Museum Services were two different agencies that existed before that, that had been in existence since 1976 that were part of the National Foundation on the Arts and Humanities.

, and then before that had been a part of the Office of Education since about 1937. So this idea of the federal government having some type of funding agency. For libraries and museums [00:35:00] goes all the way back to the beginning of the 20th century. It's not a new idea. The other thing that I thought was really interesting that I again, didn't know, even though I felt it in my soul, and we've talked about it a lot, it was nice to see that in the authorizing legislation of the IMLS, , which I'll link in the show notes.

It's really interesting to read Congress, in writing that legislation said quote, democracy demands wisdom and vision in its citizens. And that that is the reason that they were creating this agency.  

Martha: That's very 

powerful. 

Elizabeth: yes, because they felt that an important role of the federal government is to promote education and access to information for people of all backgrounds, wherever located so that they would be wise and visionary citizens of the country.

And I just. I do wanna sit with that for a minute, because I think that that is so important. And I think that a lot of what is happening right now is an [00:36:00] attempt to take that away from

people, to take away this knowledge and education, and that then results in things like, , wisdom and vision, because it makes us easier to 

control and manage, right.

If we don't have the information. And so again, you don't have to choose to engage with that if you don't want to, but I just thought that that was really interesting that that was the idea behind creating it.

Martha: Yes. And something that is near and dear to both of our hearts personally, and I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast too, so , I'm glad you found that little snippet from the authorizing legislation.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it's really interesting to read. Obviously most of us don't, including me, you know, big of a dork as I am. Don't spend a lot of our time reading legislation, but it is a really interesting thing to read if you are so

inclined. So, as we've already started [00:37:00] talking about the IMLS is the largest source of federal funding for libraries in the country.

And mostly what it does is give population based funding to all of the different states. , my library has tried to apply for both the LSTA grants through Oregon, which is what the grants program is called, , that the State of Oregon administers with the funds that we get through the IMLS and also has tried to apply for.

, grants directly with the IMLS and has never, , gotten them because they are extremely competitive. It's not a very large amount of money and there are a ton of projects that are vying for this 

money. it's needed money.

Martha: that just illustrates how much it's needed, that there is a limited amount and everyone's trying to get what they can get. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Martha: Can you give us some examples of what it [00:38:00] funds?

Elizabeth: Yeah, sure. So, , I mean I know about the things in Oregon that it funds, but in my research I also read about some other projects and actually, , became even more sad about the prospect of it going away because there are some really cool things that it has funded that I didn't even know about. So it funds things both large and small.

So in 2024, it funded, , the Chicago History Museum for about $240,000. , and it also , gave a million dollars to, , several state library training programs, , which means professional development for librarians, basically. , and this million dollar fund was actually. Named for and in honor of, , former First Lady Laura Bush, which I think is, again, just illustrating the fact that this is not historically hasn't been, and even up until 2024, isn't a partisan organization.

, Laura Bush, [00:39:00] famously was a librarian, , before George W Bush was elected to be president and has always been a great supporter of libraries. And so the IMLS created this, , librarian training program in her name. , and they also gave $25,000 to, , the Lorraine Historical Society, which is based in Ohio, in the hometown of Toni Morrison.

So that gives you an example of some of the disparate sizes of the grants and the types of things. In Oregon, some examples of the very much smaller things that it's funded than those examples. , we have a statewide database licensing program that gives all libraries in the state access to, , these databases through this company called Gale.

And , this is something that, if you have ever gone, gone to a library and tried to look something up, right? If you've [00:40:00] tried to do ancestry research at your local library or if you had a question about something. That was just a little bit more than what you could find on Wikipedia.

This is the type of database that you would need to search in to find it. It's essentially an academic database that costs thousands of dollars a year to subscribe to. So your local public library, , my local public library in Oregon doesn't have the money to subscribe to it. , people who work at my university get access to that because the university spends money to subscribe to it.

But if you're not a student or a faculty member or a staff member at that university, you basically would be out of luck if you had any type of research question that went beyond what you could find on the open internet if you didn't have these databases. And so that is really valuable to, , people in Eastern Oregon that are living in a small town and don't have a university near them that they could see if they could go use and they're , [00:41:00] taking community college classes online or doing a high school equivalency program online. , they could use those databases for that type of work. , right now with that statewide database licensee program, so it doesn't benefit my library because our library already has access to those things.

And it's much discussed in our state, the fact that academic libraries basically don't benefit from this program at all because we all already have access to those things, to those databases. But the state library has decided for years that it's more important that rural areas and places that only have access to a public library are able to access , these databases.

It's more important than making sure that every single library in the state benefits from it. ? So that's that idea of equitable, not necessarily equal. . It also funds the, , statewide summer reading program. A big public library system like Portland probably has money to do a summer reading program, but a little tiny public library, [00:42:00] like my library in my little town might not without this grant. Because a summer reading program demands a lot more staff

time than a normal program during the year, the staff has to come up with some type of program for the kids to be able to track their reading. There's a lot more story times, there's a lot more infrastructure that goes into having a summer reading

program. Something that I just absolutely loved as a kid. And the idea of kids not being able to have a summer reading program is really sad to me. I think that we've talked on the podcast before actually about book

it. Did we talk about 

book it? And how if you won it, you got like a little gift certificate to Pizza Hut and could have a personal pan pizza.

Martha: yeah, which was the only time we would ever get that.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And so that's the type of thing that this summer reading program would pay for, the little local library might not have the money to give all the kids who read the number of books they need to read the certificate for a personal PM pizza to [00:43:00] Pizza Hut, if that's even the prize anymore.

Which I don't think

it 

is, 

but it's that type of 

Martha: yeah, and it keeps kids from regressing in their progress they made during the year and keeps 'em current and yeah, it's very important for all different reasons.

Elizabeth: Well, and gets kids to read. . So we've talked about in some episodes about how important it is to get kids reading, especially between the ages of I think nine and 11. And that if their readers during that time, it's much more likely that they're gonna be readers throughout their life, which as we've talked about in other episodes, has all sorts of.

Benefits well into their adulthood and throughout their life. You know, academic, career, financial, all sorts

Martha: Yeah. All sorts of of benefits.

Elizabeth: the other example I have of the grants in Oregon is that it funds, , what's called Answer Land, which is the state's 24 7 online, , chat reference service. So similar to the databases, if you have a research question or just a question about [00:44:00] something in your community, , you can chat in to the service, even if your local library doesn't have the staff to staff a chat reference service, which most local libraries here don't.

Again, that's something that the academic libraries do. My library staffs its own chat service during the hours that the library is open because we, , have the staff to do that. But for smaller. And mostly public libraries that don't have the staff to do that. It's this central, , staff that staffs this chat service so that people can chat in and ask questions, , 24 7,

Martha: Cool. , so that's kind of like a modern version of what we were talking about. I think it was our last episode where there used to be someone there to just answer the phone and answer your questions. At the library, so obviously it's still relevant and important in our modern age.

It's just more of a chat than a A phone call.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And it's a chat that is staffed by real human beings, we've all had the experience of [00:45:00] chatting into a chat bot on a website, and unless you have the most basic question, it's not helpful because you're not actually talking to a person. It's annoying. But this is a real person and. People might not think that this is useful because they don't use it themselves, but it gets a lot of use because if it didn't, the state would not keep using these very precious funds to fund it it has shown year after year, that it is a very relevant and necessary service for the state based on the number of people that are using it.

Martha: Yeah. 'cause it's keeping, , people from calling the state and local government with questions too, I'm sure. And they don't always necessarily have the staff to answer your questions. I have to call into our borough a lot for real estate questions and, sometimes it takes some days to get back to you just because they don't have the manpower.

They're busy.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. Am a little hesitant about stuff like this because I obviously really care about this. I don't know [00:46:00] if anyone else does, but , it is a reliable place to get answers to something that you otherwise might have people getting answers from the internet or from TikTok or whatever, and , that's okay.

Maybe, , but sometimes it's 

not right? , this is what information literacy is, which is what is my big professional concern. Sometimes getting information from those places instead of something like from a library leads to people, , believing misinformation, being confused about something. , buying into conspiracy theories or believing something that isn't actually true, right?

, I think that a lot of the anger and frustration with some of these federal agencies comes from people not actually having the right information about what they really

Martha: Right, which is why we're doing this episode.

Elizabeth: Exactly. And so just a couple of other examples of what IMLS funds, because I've talked a lot about how the examples that I gave don't actually help academic libraries, but it [00:47:00] does fund, , a lot of.

Work in academic libraries as well. So there is, , a project that it funded called Assessment in Action that has helped over 200 academic libraries nationwide to measure their contributions to student success and career readiness at their universities. , which is a really important piece, of the higher education system.

, at my grad school, the University of Washington Information School, , there was a recent grant that supported a project that was all about combating misinformation. So what I was just talking about, which especially became a huge problem during the pandemic. And so that's part of what that I School grant was for.

, the University of Virginia got a grant recently, apparently, that they developed, , an AI platform that is not like the large language model. AI is like Cha, GBT, but is a specific AI that was trained on, , curated, vetted open access. , open educational resources. So it's only giving you information from those [00:48:00] reliable vetted sources.

But it's an AI platform, so it has the ability to do all this stuff , , that the people at the University of , Virginia didn't have the staff power to do. , making educational content widely accessible and adaptable to educators and students and the

public. , and then the University of South Florida got an IMLS grant to support the Autism Informed School Library Educators Project, which basically helped school librarians nationwide to get training and education on how to provide accessible services for students with autism.

So that's, again, the way that a lot of these funds tend to benefit populations that otherwise wouldn't get that type of support because it's a small number of students. If you only have a certain amount of funding, a lot of times you see you're looking for benefiting the largest population of students that you can, right?

So a lot of times people get left out if they're in some type of minority, like having a

Martha: Yeah. I think about community a [00:49:00] lot in real estate and building a nice community that people want to live in. And this all just goes back to like having happy, healthy people who have access to accurate information and how that can only be good for your community.

That can only be good for everyone. The more we lift each other up, the better our communities will be for ourselves and our families. So it's just so shortsighted to only think about,, while it doesn't affect me, or, oh, maybe I'll get a tax break. It's like, eh, okay. But , probably not.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah, that I agree with you. And also though, I was gonna say there is no way that the savings from getting rid of the IMLS will be something that anyone notices in their taxes because its budget is about $300 million, which, , the federal budget is [00:50:00] trillions of dollars.

, it's like 0.0 0, 0 0 1%. It has 70 employees. So in terms of the cost savings, I just can't believe that that is actually the reason for this, because it's not. Going to make an any 

Martha: No, it, but it's gonna have a big impact on the negative implications of no longer being around, it doesn't add up in my mind.

Elizabeth: No, and I would further say that the states and the people who are most likely to feel the effects of losing the programs that the IMLS funds are actually disproportionately probably going to be the states that supported the current administration in the election. , the states that have, a lower income tax base, that have more rural areas that aren't served by a big urban library system. Those are the places that [00:51:00] get the most outsized benefits from these 

grants. And so I don't know, I, again, I am trying really hard not to get political because I actually don't think that the IMLS is a political thing and it's never been seen as a political thing before. And I really tried while I was doing this research to try to understand what the impetus is behind this.

You know, I read the executive order, I read a lot of the things about why people want this and it really seems like it is about reducing federal bureaucracy and saving money. And so that's what just made me think that I actually think that people must not understand what this agency does, because that is not going to happen from cutting this agency.

And so that makes me feel like the real reason that it's getting swept up in all of this is because of the way that. Libraries have started to be politicized because of the fact that they carry certain books or [00:52:00] there's, , certain books that some people don't agree should be in existence.

Right? Or there's this anti-intellectualism, anti educational institutions of all sorts, sentiment that some people have that are, supporters of what's going on. , that I feel like maybe libraries are getting swept up in. But , like you said, I just, I, I think that that is shortsighted 'cause I think it's gonna have consequences for them.

, and also I think that it is targeting the wrong thing, whether or not I agree with the problems that people have with libraries. If you have those problems with your local library, the place to go is to your local representatives. 

Martha: Well, well, yeah, thinking about. People who might be choosing to homeschool their kids rather than put them in public school, which is a big movement. , it's always been a thing in Alaska, but it's grown in recent years. Those families are the ones who need [00:53:00] access to public libraries because they don't necessarily have a school library. So . It's just such a complicated issue and I think that it is kind of low hanging fruit because of the rhetoric around libraries in the last few years. , and so a very easy thing to be like, well, let's just defund them, you know?

And people don't really understand what's actually going on,

Elizabeth: I think that's a really good point also about the homeschooling because , we've been talking a lot about reading and about books and about summer programs for kids and stuff, and that is all true and very important. But libraries do a lot of things they offer a lot of services that if you don't use the library, you might not know are even available to you.

There also are lots of different types of libraries that have lots of different missions, like an archive or a museum is there to preserve our history so that we know what has happened in the past and so [00:54:00] that we can learn about it. That's their mission.

But , that's very much not what public libraries are for. Public libraries are there to support. And give resources to the people in their community. So that looks very different depending on what that community is. In some public libraries they can give you help with getting a job with access to databases or websites that you would otherwise have to pay for, like I was talking about, to find jobs.

Or , they provide classes on writing a resume. , they do workshops to help you with your taxes. , some libraries do specific skills based training that is specific to the population in their area because there is a new manufacturer that opened up in the town or a new company that's hiring.

And so they offer classes that are specific to training people to have those skills so they can get those jobs they give. GED or high school equivalency classes, like I was talking about, , or preparation classes for those things. , there's [00:55:00] all sorts of things that public libraries do because their mission is not actually about preserving history or providing people with culture.

It's about serving the people that live there. So that's where, again, I would say to people, if you feel like your public library is not serving you as a community member, you should tell them because they want to serve you. And if they knew what you needed, they would offer it. If they can, if they have the funding to do it right.

, which is part of what the IMLS does. They just do. They do so much. So I don't know. , can you think of some other things, Martha? 'cause I know what my local library does. I know that you are a big supporter of the library in your town, even though you don't use it for 

Martha: Mm-hmm., 

Elizabeth: what else , do they

Martha: Yeah, I looked up some specific examples for my community and some of the things they offer are story times, like we've talked about a lot for kids, some are reading programs, they even offer craft circles. So a great example of that third space or place where people can go and spend time [00:56:00] and meet other people and connect with their community.

They offer room rentals in the Wasilla library, which if you've not seen, is a very nice state of the art building. So they offer rooms for different reasons, , and they have lots of resources, even cybersecurity, , computer skills. They have access to the local newspapers and even foreign language learning, which like you said, are obviously things that community members have expressed a need for, and they're filling that.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that reminds me also of the fact that a lot of these things in. , this day and age are available to people digitally. So some libraries will have , , one of the foreign language learning apps that you can get for free through the library that otherwise you would have to pay for. Or they have apps where you can listen to audiobooks or read eBooks that otherwise you would have to buy an audible subscription for, or buy some other type of subscription, right?

So, , there's [00:57:00] that. But then also, , like our local library, the Pacific Northwest people are really into gardening. So our local library in the spring, you can go and get two free packets of seeds every 

week 

Martha: cute.

Elizabeth: because you can't check out a seed, right? So they just give them to you for free.

But , that's the type of thing that I just don't, I don't see how that could ever be

bad. 

Martha: Yeah. It's like I said, these, , libraries are just helping the community. Happy, healthy community members makes for a great place to live. It only helps everyone else, and I just don't know what else to say about that. It's just like you said, I don't see the negative. , so that's where we're at.

So what can we do to show support for the IMLS? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. Let's end it on something productive. Something productive. , , it's easy to feel helpless. I definitely feel very tired and, have gone through phases of feeling a little [00:58:00] disempowered, but at the end of the day, our government is beholden to us and if enough of us. Express displeasure with what's happening, then it can make a difference. , and so that just goes back to things like writing to your representative, sending them emails. , calling is even better. So I don't know if I've talked about this on the podcast, but I used to work in Washington, DC and a lot of what we did was, , helping nonprofits, , advocate for issues to the federal government basically.

And so I can tell you from personal experience that , every time an office in the government, be it a senator's office or a congress person's office, or even your local state representative's office, every time they get contacted by a constituent, they note it. Almost like a hashtag, right?

Or , they give it like a numerical wait. And after they get a certain number of hashtags about an [00:59:00] issue, then it escalates to whatever their next level is. So maybe, , an advisor on that issue will look into it, and then if they get a certain number, then the actual representative will start thinking about it or they'll talk to 'em about it.

And so if you write to your representative, that is, let's say that that's like a one. If you call your representative that's like a

10, , you know, this is not exact, different offices are gonna wait it differently. , but calling is much more impactful than writing. And then when we're talking about writing, sending an email from your actual email as opposed to sending a form through an organization is. , let's say that the form counts for like a 0.5. Writing from your actual email will be like a one

or a 

two. , because it takes more effort to do that. And so you assume that if someone has gone through the effort that it takes to actually pick up the phone and call you, that they're very incensed or impassioned about this issue.

And , [01:00:00] the reasoning behind it is that you assume that there's at least 10 other people that agree with them that maybe aren't as impassioned as they are and so aren't willing to pick up the phone. But that if there's someone who's gotten this exercised about it, that there must be other people who agree with them is the calculation that they make.

So, , right from your own email, if you can, , signed a petition if you want, , there are lots of petitions. , I'd focus on the big ones like the American Library Association has a petition. Every library, which is an organization, has a petition. I'll put the links to those in the show notes.

It's not bad to do those, it's just that it doesn't make as much of an impact as either writing from your own email address or calling if you don't like to talk on the phone, which a lot of us these days don't. . . I saw in an email that someone sent to a statewide email list that I'm on about this, that you can call on a weekend when the office isn't open and leave 

a message, and that it will still count as a phone call.

So I don't actually know if that's true or not. Like I said, different offices have different weights that they give these things, [01:01:00] but if you are worried about actually having to talk on the spot, you could just write a little script for yourself and call 

Martha: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: and leave a message. , so yeah, , that's what I would do.

, if you wanna have an impact on this and then, you know. 

Vote.

Martha: Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Vote. 

for people who, if you support libraries, vote for people who support

Martha: Yeah. Those are such great tips. this is where I get worked up. 'cause I feel like we should have. High school classes about this, , I don't think I learned any of this in my government classes, how to actually participate in our democracy. This is what representation is all about, or it should be right, but so many people don't know that you can even do these things or that it's weighted a certain way depending on how you participate.

I think this is very important information, so thank you, Liz, for sharing that 

Elizabeth: mean, they don't want you to know 

really, because , it's more work for them to have to field phone calls. , [01:02:00] not, they don't want you to know in a way that's like, I'm a conspiracy theorist, but you're talking about human beings who are working in an office and who have a long to-do list

so they don't want their day at interrupted by having to talk to you on the phone. But that's why it makes such an impact, because if they're getting a phone call every five minutes from someone about something and it's interrupting their day, then they're gonna do something about it to make the phone call

stop. Right.

So, 

yeah. 

Martha: It's important. Yep. That's great. And like we said, we'll link everything in the show notes, so if you wanna read more, , about any of the things we've mentioned or the books we're reading, definitely check those out. If you have any other thoughts on this topic, send us an email to all books allowed pod@gmail.com. We'd love to hear your opinion. If you want even more bookish content, follow us on Instagram and TikTok at all books Allowed Pod and make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode [01:03:00] and read on My Friends 

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