You Can’t Work Two Jobs Forever w/ Abby Mills

Episode 15 of Don’t F*ck This Up is here, and this week it’s an incredible conversation centered around career, design, and choice with Abby Mills, Staff Product Designer at Faire, and the founder of Abby on the Internet. 

Abby and Lauren discuss how to go for things outside your comfort zone, the downsides of 100% remote work, and the important distinction between management and leadership. 

Plus, Abby shares how she leverages design thinking for everything from home renovations to sewing projects, what went into her decision to choose her design career over a career in content creation, and why she’s extremely specific about the brands that she partners with. 

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Follow Abby on IG: @abbyontheinternet

Connect with Abby on Linkedin

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Connect with Abby on Linkedin 

Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!

Transcript

Lauren Alvarez (00:01)
Welcome to the show today. I am here with Abby Mills or as you may know her Abby on the internet Abby welcome to don't fuck this up

Abby (00:09)
Hi Lauren, thanks so much for having me.

Lauren Alvarez (00:11)
I'm so happy that we're doing this. It feels like you have a lot going on. I mean, a quick glance at your social would tell anybody that your love for color, texture, travel, all of it is coming together in the fold. But before we get into all that, I mean, how are you doing today?

Abby (00:27)
We are almost in holiday season, which I love. Get to see family a lot. And then it's the new year. I love New Year's Eve. I feel like most people hate New Year's Eve, but I love it. And, oh, I just love any opportunity to, well, to party with friends, even if partying with friends means hanging out in your own living room, which I do a lot of these days. But any opportunity for, like, reflection.

Lauren Alvarez (00:30)
I know.

What do you love about it?

Yeah.

Abby (00:55)
I'm not a big goal setter, but I really like to reflect on things and, you know, do an assessment of like, how is life and is it serving you in all the ways that you want it to and what do you want to change? What do you want to continue doing? All that kind of stuff.

Lauren Alvarez (01:12)
I love that. I think that it seems thematically things are going really well.

Abby (01:17)
Yeah, yeah, like I said, I love this time of year. And also, at least for me in my industry, work tends to slow down a little bit during the holiday season. So it's like quiet at work, lots of focus time. You get to attend to all the things that you've been wanting to do, but never had time to do.

Lauren Alvarez (01:26)
We love that.

I really love that. I mean, in the last two months alone, like I know you've been traveling like mad. I mean, Chicago, New York, Toronto, Portland, of course, being home in the Bay Area. I mean, how do you balance travel and, you know, collaborations or, you know, showing up for the people in your personal life with being home, showing up, you know, for your professional life and even just like at your own home with your personal life there?

Abby (02:00)
Yeah, I think I say yes to a lot of things and then just have confidence that I'll figure it out when the time comes. And I think over the years, I've gotten better at identifying what are the things that I want to say yes to that I know will come together versus what are the things that are maybe something that I'm not going to be into when the time comes and say no to those things.

Lauren Alvarez (02:04)
Hmm.

I love that.

Abby (02:26)
So more of the things that I love to do that are going to bring me energy, even if it takes like a little bit of sorting out when the time comes versus the things that I'm not that into, I'm better at saying no in the upfront.

Lauren Alvarez (02:38)
Yeah, I think finding balance too is just so important, you know, and really, you know, listening to yourself. I think like as someone who's generally inclined to say yes to things as well, I think that there's times where I say yes and I'm like, why the fuck did I say yes? Because now I have to actually do it. And sometimes that push, you know, to get myself to do the thing is always a good thing. But then there are times where, you know, I once read that if you rate it on a scale of one to 10, if it's below a seven, then you shouldn't do it.

Abby (03:08)
Mmm.

Lauren Alvarez (03:08)
And if it's an eight or above, then you absolutely should. And if it's a seven, you're not allowed to pick seven, so you can't pick six or eight. And so I kind of have like a litmus that I do as well. Like if it's something that I'm feeling tepid about, I sort of like self-assess like, hey, is it something that I'm nervous because I haven't done this before? Or is it because I quite literally don't have time and I feel like I'm being pulled in too many directions? Well, I might not show up as my best self, right? And I think that there is that kind of honest dialogue when you are a yeser. And I think I'd rather

Abby (03:31)
Yeah.

Yes.

Lauren Alvarez (03:37)
stay as a guest person than be a negative no.

Abby (03:41)
Yeah, I love that. I sometimes think like, you know, when there's an opportunity to do something where it's like pushing me out of my comfort zone, I'm like, do I like the idea of this? In the best case scenario, if I was prepared for this, would I kick ass at it? And if I think yes, then I'm like, all right, I'm gonna say yes to that, and then just have the confidence that I will get there to like the place that I'm prepared where I feel like really good about it. So yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (03:50)
Hmm

I love. No, I mean, that's so amazing. And you strike me as a naturally very creative person, but there also is this like pragmatic, like really like thoughtful, you know, process oriented part of you. I mean, thinking about that and like, you know, it makes sense to me and knowing, you know, designers that you would gravitate toward design because it is sort of that tension of left and right brain. But what initially made you fall in love with design?

Abby (04:30)
I mean, I was, it was probably in high school that I was taking art classes and had some teacher say, you know, have you ever, do you know what graphic design is? And I was like, no. And learned like what graphic design was. And it was this.

Lauren Alvarez (04:45)
Thank you.

Abby (04:52)
kind of interesting blend between creativity and like a very clear end goal, like a brief from a client. And which I really like because it is that balance of creativity, but clarity and pragmatism. And I didn't know, you know, when I was 18, thinking about going to college, I didn't know what else I wanted to do. I feel like it took me till my mid-twenties to figure out what I wanted to do, but.

Lauren Alvarez (05:00)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Abby (05:22)
I chose to study graphic design in college and I was okay at it. I really liked it, but I wouldn't say that I was the best graphic designer in my class and there were people that I thought were so much more talented than me. And then I did that for a couple of years out of college and then I discovered UX design and that was where I was like, oh, this is even more analytical, more business oriented.

than graphic design, which I think was really my calling, where it's this combination of creativity, creative problem solving, but there really is so much clarity and analysis in UX design. And then the beauty of product design and user experience design is you can test it and you can see how successful you are. And so it's this very kind of metric and measurement driven.

Lauren Alvarez (06:12)
Mmm.

Abby (06:15)
type of design and getting feedback from the people that you're designing for in this very iterative process. And that's really what I love about what I do now.

Lauren Alvarez (06:25)
I think that that's so interesting. And going back to something you said about school is that you weren't the best person in the class. And I think that's something that a lot of people get in their head, even with master's programs or going back and assessing, you're like, okay, well, there's always gonna be somebody better than you. Most likely, we're not gonna be the best person in the class because that's one of 100 or 500 or 1,000 or however big the program you're in is. But...

guess what, companies need more than one person. And if there was just one person from every school, that wouldn't be enough for all the designers needed for all the companies in the world. And so it can be a really good moment of opportunity to be like, okay, well, if I'm not trying to obsess over being the best, could I just be the best me? Could I just be the best at this in the moment? Or like do my best and it's me against me versus me against everybody else in my class. And there's that expression of like comparison is the thief of joy, right? And I do believe that so much that like,

I've talked about imposter syndrome on the show before, you know, with guests and things like that, but aside from imposter syndrome, there's this kind of thing that we tell ourselves that like, if I'm not the best at this, then maybe it's not worth it. And I think what you said is so poignant, you know, it's really about like being the best for you, getting through the program, and then maybe it's something that's like a slightly adjacent, you know, skill set that you're leveraging. Oh yeah, I use that in design school, but like, you're not using everything you've learned. So if you're the best at the school part, who cares?

Abby (07:44)
Yeah, and I think like, who is to say who is the best at what? I think so many things that we do are highly, highly subjective. And I think when we are self-critical and when I say something like, oh, I wasn't the best at X in X class or at that particular thing, sometimes it's because that's not my strength, right? That's somebody else's strength.

Lauren Alvarez (07:50)
Mmm.

Abby (08:10)
And it's really easy for us to identify what we're not good at. Oh, here's this one very technical thing that somebody else is better at me because I'm already self-critical, right? I'm already sensitive about this thing. But it's really hard for us to identify where are the places that we are excelling and who knows who is looking at us and saying, wow, that person is so much better at that thing than I am. It's all a balance. And like I said, it's really easy to like...

Lauren Alvarez (08:20)
Yeah.

Abby (08:36)
harp on the things that we know are like, oh, that's a little bit hard for me. We can identify, oh, that person is so much better, or it looks so easy. Oh, the thing that they do that I'm already sensitive about, because I don't think I'm very good at it, I'm seeing their end product, and I'm thinking, wow, that's so easy for them. But who knows how hard it was for them? Who knows how much time they put into it in order for it to look really easy or for it to come out really great at the end?

Lauren Alvarez (08:40)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that that's so interesting because oftentimes we don't run up to that person and say, oh my God, you're the best at this, right? We kind of keep it to ourselves and maybe it's a message to us that we should just be calling out other people's greatness and we might get some of that in return, right? And in question for you about, you know, school, there's something that comes up so much on the show, the importance or the lack thereof of school for your chosen career. And in your own opinion, you know, how important is school for somebody who wants to pursue a career in design?

Abby (09:14)
Mm-hmm.

For me, it was really important because it, well, one, it really honed my skills. I learned a lot. I have, you know, in product design, like in tech, there's like the technical product understanding of how you build apps and websites and what the design process is there. And then there's the more traditional design understanding of like the design principles of, you know, hierarchy and balance and tension and things like that.

Lauren Alvarez (09:36)
Yeah.

Abby (09:59)
which I would say aren't as important in this area of design. But for me as somebody who didn't know, I didn't know I was going to end up here, you know, 10 years ago. It was very, a very important part of my career journey to learn about design, to understand what aspects of design I was interested in, what I was not interested in. And so I took like a, you know, a long path to get here, but there are lots of different ways that you can end up in this field, right? Like you can take bootcamp classes,

You can just sort of organically learn through a school of YouTube. But I think the aspects of school that were that are important and definitely were important to me are learning the technical skills, building connections and networking and then having work for a portfolio. And sometimes school can help you get there faster than other ways. But if you have the technical school skills.

Lauren Alvarez (10:49)
Mmm.

Abby (10:53)
If you have a portfolio, whether that's self-initiated projects or side work that you've done, and you have a network or you're good at networking, then you really don't need necessarily to have the more traditional training. I would say that when I'm interviewing people, I look at their portfolio first. I don't look at where they went to school or what credentials they have. That's not really important to me. I much more care about the work and the practical application.

Lauren Alvarez (11:16)
Right.

I think that that's really interesting too. I mean, and even early in your design career, you worked as a brand designer on some very well-known brands. I mean, way, way back, like opening ceremony, I mean, Playboy, excuse me, School of Visual Arts. I mean, that's really cool. And then pivoting kind of into the more like advertising and creative agency space, and then pivoting again into big tech or fang as it's called, working at two of the big, you know, big ones, if you will, two of the five. Now you're in the startup space. I mean, what...

has been your favorite environment that you've worked in.

Abby (11:55)
Oh, that's so tough. Um, I have, I'm thankful for all the different places and types of companies that I've worked for. I have learned very important things at every place that I've ever worked. Um, there are some places that I'm like, I don't know if I'd go back there and do that again. Uh, but I'm very grateful for the experience, what I learned, the people that I met.

Lauren Alvarez (12:06)
Yeah.

Hehehehe

Abby (12:21)
I don't think that I would have the job that I have right now had I not done what I had done in the past. But I do think, and this is such a trite answer, but I do think that it is the people who you work with that make the biggest difference on your happiness, your fulfillment on the day to day, because it's the people that you're collaborating with every day that make a difference in how...

Lauren Alvarez (12:26)
Yeah.

Abby (12:47)
fulfilled you are and how much fun you're having and how long you end up staying in a company. I think work should be fun. I don't know if that's an unpopular opinion, but we spend so much time at work. You're spending more time at work than you are with your partner, with your kids, with your family. So I really feel like you should be having a good time at work and you should feel like it's worth your time. So I would say like when I am...

Lauren Alvarez (12:53)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Abby (13:15)
assessing a new job opportunity, going through an interview process. The thing that I prioritize most right now is, for lack of a better term, what's the vibe that I'm getting from these people? Do I wanna work with them every day? If this was my coworker, if this was my boss, how would I feel about that?

Lauren Alvarez (13:27)
Yeah.

I mean, I think that that's so, so thoughtful and so real. I mean, definitely the interview landscape, you know, and this is something that came up with someone else who was on the show before of just like, sometimes you sit down with people and you're like, wow, like everything that they told me in the interview seems amazing. I'm going to take this job. And then you go there and it's like, whoa, they did not portray this at all. So really seeking out like, you know,

the personalities and maybe the challenges that you haven't gotten to take on before. You know, for me, like I love work. I really enjoy working. And so I'm always looking for something like, if I wanted to do the same, same thing, I wouldn't have laughed or I wouldn't have been trying to pivot or to adjust. And so, I mean, I'm really enjoying like this kind of charcuterie board moment of tasty, differing work environments that you've been in. I mean, the perspective it offers, you know, and the different types of people that you work with, at least in my own experiences is really incredible. I mean,

Curious what environment has forced you to evolve or change the most, for better or worse. I mean, change is not a bad thing on the show for sure.

Abby (14:33)
Yeah, I mean, working from home now in this like post-pandemic world that we're in, I never worked remote before this. And then, you know, we were all sort of forced to work remote and figure it out. And I think at first it was exciting because I suddenly wasn't commuting for like three hours a day here in the Bay Area. Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I think back to like, oh my God, I can't believe how much time I spent.

Lauren Alvarez (14:35)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Total game changer.

Abby (15:02)
you know, in a car. I think I'm much more productive at home, but I feel the loneliness a lot. Like I am somebody who, even though I'm relatively introverted, I get a lot of energy from collaborating in person, in real time with my team. And so that's been really hard for me, is like not having the energy of the people around me or a balance of it, you know?

Lauren Alvarez (15:28)
Yeah.

Abby (15:28)
I don't think I could go back to every day in an office just because I'm so productive when I have the solo time. But I've been really interested in how this type of work environment has changed both the way that I work, the way that I collaborate with my team, the way that my team works. And I think it's changing things for the better. I do think it's rocky. And I think it will be a few more years before folks really find the sweet spot.

Lauren Alvarez (15:30)
No.

Abby (15:56)
because I personally don't think 100% remote all the time is right for me, but I do know people who love it and they could never go back to a single day in the office. So yeah, I think this has been an interesting time for myself and for the whole, you know, anybody else who is also involved in this change of remote first working or remote friendly working. I'm very curious to see what's gonna happen in the next few years.

Lauren Alvarez (16:19)
Yeah, and I think every company is trying to figure it out. I mean, as an HR professional, like they're asking me, like, what do you feel about the return to work? And my answer is like, it's kind of neutral, not because I don't have opinions, but because I can see the good and the bad from both sides. And that's such a like Libra answer for me to give. I am what I am. But I would say it's also, there are benefits and there are areas like the commute was brutal and like spending so much time in the car or on the subway or whatever. But then also that was time that allowed me to decompress and disconnect from my workday.

Abby (16:49)
Totally.

Lauren Alvarez (16:49)
And now if it's just like you're at your desk and you close a laptop and then you're supposed to like suddenly go from being, you know, work Abby to home Abby, that's, you know, you're not getting that. It's a very abrupt transition, right? And so we do sort of need to find new ways to unplug from our workday, new ways to, you know, transition into the weekend even. I think that is a challenge. And yeah, I don't know that anybody's quite figured it out perfectly yet for like hybrid schedules. It's like...

you know, there can be this kind of like arbitrary, like, it's gonna be three days, but it's like, okay, tell us why, you know, cause people are gonna ask why. I mean, and sometimes I'm the person that has to tell you why, so that's also really hard. So it is a challenge and I don't think we're there yet. I think you're right. I think it's at least a few years out. And I think, you know, it's interesting because for you, you also have this other side to your design life of, you know, Abby on the internet, you have, you know,

produce a lot of content, you've been in the influencer space. And it's really interesting because you definitely have a very similar person, I would say, from your work life person to your social and what you share. But how separate do you keep that kind of online life and your work life and your profession?

Abby (18:05)
Yeah, I share. It's pretty, it's pretty separate. My, you know, my career job is very different than the type of like content, the parts of my life that I share on the internet, on Instagram and you know, little, little bit of Tik Tok. I would say Instagram is my primary platform and kind of has always been. Um, but that's, you know, very focused on more like hobbies, personal passion. Um, I don't really share anything about like

Lauren Alvarez (18:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Abby (18:33)
tech industry or about product design. I don't really share any of my work that I do there. And I much prefer that. It's nice to have that distinction and that kind of separate part of my brain versus if I was an influencer in the tech or design space. I think that would be really hard because I would feel like I was always, always working.

Lauren Alvarez (18:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Abby (18:58)
when you're a content creator or an influencer, you do sometimes feel like you're always working. But I definitely feel like from nine to five, I'm pretty focused on my career. I'm sitting in this office, I'm on Zoom a lot. And then when I'm not working at work, I feel like I have a different, it's a different part of my brain that's activated.

Lauren Alvarez (18:58)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Abby (19:26)
Yes, I'm sort of focusing on something. I'm like working in a sense, you know, making content or sharing stuff online, but because it's a very different subject matter and because it's very easy for me, because I'm just so passionate about that, that stuff that I share, it is. It is pretty easy for me. Different part of my brain. I don't have to work as hard. And it's just more, I would say like just more delightful and fun than it is like work.

Lauren Alvarez (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

It feels very natural, totally.

Abby (19:56)
So yeah, that's kind of how it works for me.

Lauren Alvarez (19:59)
No, I mean, do you ever feel that odds are like you can or don't want to share that in you know, your career environment as you called it, you know, when do I mean, have you ever had a co worker fan person you for the Abby on the internet side of things and you're like, Oh my God, I've been found out.

Abby (20:13)
I would say that like I don't hide my internet persona. Sometimes because it's very separate, sometimes I giggle when people from my job are like, sometimes people will say like, oh, my friend, my friend follows you online and.

Lauren Alvarez (20:19)
Okay.

Abby (20:38)
and I like looked you up, you know, and I'm like, oh yeah, there's like that secret life, you know, that I have this very different other part of my life. But it's, you know, I mostly laugh. I wouldn't say that I am embarrassed, but sometimes I am like, I don't want, I don't necessarily want to be judged for the more like fun and frivolous part of my life that I share on the internet.

Not that I'm a super serious person at work, but I do take my work very seriously. I take my career very seriously, and I wanna make sure that I am taken seriously in my job for the work that I do there, versus like, oh, Abby just prances around in her cute outfits online. And that's, again, that's just like more of the fun, frivolous, more hobby-driven part of my life.

Lauren Alvarez (21:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it sounds like there is like a level of like consciousness that you have about that. I mean, I for one really love the outfits that you put together and share. And I think that's really amazing and interesting. But I get that there is this thing. And I will even say, you know, at least for me, like as a woman, I feel like there is kind of this conflict that of like how we're perceived professionally, you know, whether it's in the office or on zoom office or whatever we call it, that I don't know, like if a man was like,

into fashion, like would we consider that as part of, you know, what we're judging about, like with their professional career persona? Probably not. Right. Yeah, look at the duality. He has layers.

Abby (22:01)
No, of course not. People would be like, oh, that's so cool. Yeah, exactly. Wow, what a complex character. Exactly, yeah, yeah. But I mean, in the same way, I think there are some people nowadays that understand the content creator world, the influencer world. They get that it is a very legitimate and very lucrative job for some people.

Lauren Alvarez (22:22)
Yeah.

Abby (22:30)
And so for those that get it, I think they get it. And if you don't, I'm like, well, jokes on you because I've had one full-time career at the same time that I've had another full-time career and I've been able to do both. So if you're judging me for having this sort of frivolous side, internet side of my life, I have managed to have two jobs at once.

Lauren Alvarez (22:34)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's amazing. And like, let's talk about some of the challenges there too. Cause I remember a few years ago, you were very vocal about scaling back on partnerships on, you know, certain content creation in general. Can you share a little bit about what led to this decision, which felt extremely intentional?

Abby (23:07)
Yeah, yeah. So I, in order to answer that question, I have to back up a little bit and talk about how I started kind of like being a content creator and how I kind of took that into like a more full-time career. In that I, so I started doing Instagram stuff more seriously in maybe 2017.

Lauren Alvarez (23:17)
Great.

Abby (23:30)
when I was still working full time. And at that point, I didn't really know that you could be a content creator. I didn't really know that it was a job that people had. I used to read blogs like back in the day and I loved the sort of fashion blogger world and still follow some of those OG bloggers. So I knew that some people were doing it really seriously, but I had no idea that people were really like making money. I think this is right when the term influencer started to be used as a, like a job.

Lauren Alvarez (23:41)
Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Abby (24:00)
a profession that you could have. So I started doing the Instagram thing very much as a hobby. I was like, I love consuming other people's fashion content. Like I would love to contribute to that. And it also was an interesting fun way for me to be more accountable for my own clothing and to document my own style and have a record of my own outfits that I would wear.

Lauren Alvarez (24:10)
Yes.

Abby (24:28)
slowly started building a following, building a small community on Instagram, and began learning, as being part of that community, began learning that people could make money, this could be a career for people. So as I started growing my following in my community, I started dabbling in some brand partnerships, some sponsored content, and I was like, oh, this is really interesting, like a sort of side hustle supplemental income stream.

And then it took me a few years. So at about 2020, I was doing enough brand partnerships to be considered like a full-time career in terms of like income that I was making. And I was like, oh wow, this is really interesting. I could do this full-time. I could make this my job. And...

Lauren Alvarez (25:12)
Mm-hmm.

Abby (25:22)
I was connecting with a lot of other influencers who did do this full time. I had some management companies that were reaching out to me for like representation. And I was like, oh my God, people do this. People do this as their job. This is nuts. Which is kind of silly to think about because for a lot of people it's very, yeah, for a lot of people it was really obvious. For a lot of people it was like, this is my goal. I want to do this as a career. And for me, I was more like, oh, this is a thing that people do. Like fascinating.

Lauren Alvarez (25:37)
I like the humility. I'm here for it. Ha ha.

Abby (25:51)
So in 2020 and 2021, I was doing this kind of balancing of two careers at the same time. And in 2021, I really had to make this decision, which one do I want to do? Cause you can't do two jobs forever. It's not very sustainable. And...

in reflecting on, you know, like, how am I spending my time in my content creator job? How am I spending my time? Is that bringing me joy and energy? And if I did this full time, is that how I would want to be spending my time? Is this an industry that I want to be in? And for me, I didn't love being in the advertising industry, which is what you are as a content creator. It's really the only way that you can make money outside of monetizing your own community directly through like Patreon or other subscriptions and things like that.

Lauren Alvarez (26:37)
Yeah.

Abby (26:47)
And for me, I didn't really want to be in the advertising industry. I was like, I like making content. I love being a part of a community. I love talking about this subject matter. But I don't really love doing a bunch of advertising for other brands. It just didn't bring me a ton of energy. And I didn't love it in that in order to make it a full-time job, you have to do a lot of ads. And I was like, the occasional partnership here and there is fun. There are a handful of brands that I feel.

Lauren Alvarez (27:06)
Yeah.

Abby (27:14)
like are really doing things right that I would love to work with. But again, like to make it a full-time income, you just have to do more sponsored work than I personally wanted to do. And I love my career as a product designer. So it wasn't that hard of a decision. If I didn't love my career, I very easily, I see another world in which I take the content creator thing and I choose that path.

Lauren Alvarez (27:29)
Yeah.

Abby (27:43)
But I get so much fulfillment out of my career as a product designer that it wasn't that hard of a decision for me.

Lauren Alvarez (27:52)
Yeah, and I think that you spoke to something that it seems like it came fairly natural, but I'm curious, what is that source of confidence for you when you're navigating these larger transitions? I mean, I know that you had that thoughtful and also pragmatic approach of listing out, am I happy, do I like this? But there's kind of that larger source of confidence that has to come from somewhere. When you really think about that, where do you think that comes from?

Abby (28:13)
Man, that's a tough one.

For me, I think I do a lot of reflecting on like a zooming in and zooming out approach. So zooming in is like, did I spend the day the way I wanted to spend the day? Like looking back on the day, did I do things that brought me energy that I felt was a good use of my time? Do I feel fulfilled by the work that I did today? And not every day feels fulfilling, right? Some days at work, I'm just so drained, right? You're just like, oh, I either didn't get anything done or.

Lauren Alvarez (28:22)
Hmm.

Abby (28:45)
couldn't get alignment from this person or really felt a lot of tension in X particular meeting or this presentation didn't go well, whatever, right? We all have days like that. But overall, are the days that you're spending at your job, do those feel like good days to you? And if you have more good days than bad days, then that's kind of where you wanna be. And then zooming out, like, do I feel like the direction of my career is going in a place that

Lauren Alvarez (28:50)
Mm.

Abby (29:15)
that I like, do I see if I'm doing this a year from now, am I still happy about that? And I think when it comes to influencer stuff, when I reflect on the day to day, it's okay, right? It's kind of fun on the day to day. But when I think about, do I still want to be doing this in a year? Could I grow this to be something else? That is more, I think, where the crux of the decision came in.

Lauren Alvarez (29:21)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Abby (29:44)
is because when I think a year out from the type of influencer and content creation work I was doing, when I think a year out from that, it didn't excite me that much. I was like, I don't think I wanna be doing this in a year. And if I don't wanna do it in a year, what other levers could I pull that could still make this a viable career for me, could still make money doing it, but I could be learning something else. I think that was another thing is I was like, am I learning new things all the time?

Lauren Alvarez (30:03)
Mm.

Abby (30:14)
Not so much.

Lauren Alvarez (30:14)
Yeah, yeah. And I think like your sense of self really comes through there. And I think like that's such a great hallmark of who you are, is you really seem to know who you are, and also like where you are going to draw from. And I think that's a great, you know, just point of reference for anybody who feels like they're maybe at a career crossroads, or they're trying to choose between two different companies, or anything. It's like imagine yourself where you are in the moment, yes, but think 12 months ahead.

What does this look like for me? What can I learn? Can I grow from the people around me? Is this person who's gonna be my boss somebody that I feel excited by? Do I kinda wanna steal their job? Okay, that's somebody I wanna work with, cool. Or is it like, oh, I don't think that I'm gonna learn from this person because I'm being hired in by someone who has this super senior title, but.

They've only, it's just because they've been in this company since day one and like, am I going to get a lot of experience from them in that way? I think that's a big question that I've certainly pondered. I coach people on the question all the time. And I think what you said, that kind of zooming in and zooming out is such an eloquent way of putting it, of just really thinking about the moment that you're in, because it does matter. Do I want to do this day to day?

but then like, what's the long-term? What's the bigger picture? And what does this look like? And I think like for design, there's such nuance to the space, but everyone's gonna need design. Like it's something that like is gonna be needed across different types of companies, as we talked about all the different environments you've worked in. I mean, the possibilities are kind of limitless there. And that excites me even just saying it out loud. I'm sure for you as the person doing it, that felt really exciting.

Abby (31:48)
Yeah, I mean, definitely until AI takes all of our jobs.

Lauren Alvarez (31:51)
Right, exactly. I mean, you know, so with AI in mind, I mean, what is your least favorite part of your job that you'd love to give to AI? Like, what would you just hand over to the bots today?

Abby (32:02)
Oh god, if I could never spec another design file for an engineering team, I would be the happiest person alive.

Lauren Alvarez (32:10)
I love that. I mean, what's your favorite? Like what would you cling to as the very last thing that you would give up as part of your job?

Abby (32:16)
I think the best part of being a product designer is we really help bring other people, like all of our cross-functional partners, leadership, we help bring them along the design process. We help people understand what is the problem that we're trying to solve? Is it even the right problem? Is it a business problem or a user problem? How do we validate that what we're solving is actually a problem that we should be solving as a company? We help bring people through the...

Lauren Alvarez (32:25)
Hmm.

Abby (32:45)
the full design thinking process. And I think that's really fun for me, you know, working with a group of people who are not designers and kind of seeing an aha moment when they realize, wow, design is really important. This process has been really eye-opening. It's been really fun. We are all solving this problem together and all of our brains are needed. It's not just a design problem to solve. It's not just a leadership problem to solve. It's not just an engineering problem to solve. Like we all come together.

Lauren Alvarez (32:49)
Yeah.

Yes.

Abby (33:13)
and we all figure out what we're gonna do together, that's the best part. And AI cannot solve that for us. That's a very human, human solution. No.

Lauren Alvarez (33:20)
Yeah. AI is not giving vibes. Sorry, AI. It's just not happening. I mean, I think that's really interesting, too, because you made the big move from being in New York to the Bay Area. I can relate to that. I did the same move. Can you talk a little bit about the driver and making that change? Because I think surface level, if someone was to see that, they'd be like, oh, in order to be successful, I have to move to Silicon Valley. I know that wasn't the case.

Abby (33:34)
Mm-hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (33:46)
the only reason, but like, could you share a little bit about kind of the thinking behind that and then maybe some of the differences in those two cities as work environments?

Abby (33:55)
Yeah, so I definitely had that same thought. I thought, okay, if I want to work for a proper product company, if I want to work for a big bang company, which I did at the time, then I have to move to the Bay Area. I have to move to Silicon Valley, which maybe was true at the time. I don't know. Things have changed a lot since then because of pandemic. But that's one of the reasons that I thought at the time. But I think today you definitely don't.

Lauren Alvarez (34:13)
Yes, they have.

Abby (34:24)
need to and because of a more remote first work environment. But some of the differences, I mean, I love California. I grew up in California, but I also love New York. I spent a decade living in New York City. It is one of the most remarkable places on earth and it is completely, it's tangible, right? Once when you land at JFK,

and you're in a car driving through Brooklyn, you see the skyline, it's an incredible city. And that's not replicated in any other city either too. I love San Francisco, but it is not New York City. And I think there are trade-offs. I had lived in New York a long time. New York is a hard place to live, which is one of the reasons why it is so magical.

Lauren Alvarez (35:03)
That's right.

Abby (35:19)
but I was really ready for more space, a little bit of a slower pace of life. And then what I didn't realize is that I would be trading subway culture for car culture, which is something that I don't love. I'm not a big fan of hopping in my car and driving to wherever I wanna go. I love to just walk out of my house and go walk and do things, which you can't really do where I live. I live in the suburbs.

Lauren Alvarez (35:25)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Abby (35:49)
So you really have to get in a car if you're going to go anywhere, which is not my favorite thing to do. So the difference in commuting, because I did commute here for a couple of years before COVID happened. So that's a really, really big difference and was really hard on me. I love just being able to walk everywhere or take the subway, have kind of like anywhere in the city and at your fingertips. But yeah, there are trade-offs to both cities.

Lauren Alvarez (36:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I'm like, I loved that about New York too. I was also the naughty New Yorker who had a car and I wouldn't tell anybody because they would always wanna borrow my car but I secretly had a car. And so when I had to go from like bedside to the Upper East Side, I would just drive. It was the worst. But that ability to just like walk out your door and like have the world just right there.

I mean, even living in LA, like we're up in the hills, like we were not just like walking. Like there was one time that we decided to walk down to Sunset Junction, you know, in Silver Lake from where we live. And it was a really nice walk and it was like 30 minutes and we got coffee and then we're like, oh fuck, we have to walk up the hill. And that just really kills it for me, but I, totally.

Abby (36:56)
Yeah, and people look at you strange, you know, like you're, we occasionally walk, you know, to the whatever handful of strip malls that are near us. And you know, we'll be at a huge intersection, you know, where there's eight lanes each way. And I swear people are driving by and they're looking at us like we're crazy because we're the only people walking. The cities just aren't set up for, you know, pedestrians. So

Lauren Alvarez (37:04)
Sure.

Yeah.

No, there's a couple little neighborhoods in LA that are like a little bit more walkable, like Larchmont, things like that. And you go there and you're like, could this be the New York? No, there's no New York outside of New York. Come on. But everyone who moves here from New York is trying to find their little slice of walkability. And listen, people, if you're living in LA, it doesn't happen. And really San Francisco too, you're going to inevitably have to walk up a huge hill and you're going to be sad. It's going to

Abby (37:30)
No. Mm-mm.

Yeah, no thank you.

I remember the first time that I learned that. I had just moved here. I was in San Francisco doing something. I looked up, you know, on Google Maps how long it was gonna take me to walk from wherever I was to the place that I needed to be. And I was like, oh, 10 blocks, easy. 45 minutes and like a vertical climb. I'm like, this was the biggest mistake I've ever made.

Lauren Alvarez (37:56)
Ha ha ha!

Oh, totally.

I literally did that when I moved to San Francisco. I was staying in Petrero Hill, which was like, you know, kind of a big hill, hence the neighborhood name. And I looked up, I was like, I'm going to walk to Sephora. I'm going to walk to Soma. This is going to be awesome. And I walked and then I realized I had to walk home. And that was my first and last San Francisco bus experience because I was like, I can't go up this hill. I just can't do it. So yeah, I was the baby that took the bus up the hill. But yeah.

I mean, something that's so interesting, Abby, is like you mentioned that you grew up in California. Was there anything really surprising to you about returning to the place you grew up? And I don't know that you live in the same exact place where you grew up, but I mean, something about that, I mean, my husband has experiences too. It's like there is a certain interesting component to that.

Abby (38:56)
Yeah, I mean, California is like quote home for me, but I hadn't lived here since I was 17. And it's like living with my family and going to high school here. So it's very different being somebody in their 30s who's working in a job versus going to high school when your world is this big. I appreciate California so much more because I know what other places are like.

Lauren Alvarez (39:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Abby (39:26)
I'm like, oh yeah, the weather. Like that is a thing about California that people always talk about, but when you grow up here, you're like, what do you mean? Seasons, like it's 40 degrees. That's as cold as it gets anywhere. So I definitely appreciate it a lot more now that I live here and I understand why when people move to California, they tend to stay in California.

Lauren Alvarez (39:38)
Yeah.

Totally, and you just have to plan trips so that you're able to wear your jackets during jacket season, because I will say that I have some really amazing jackets that I just don't get to wear that much. So they're hanging, waiting for a little trip to the East Coast or somewhere a little chilly so I can put it on. Although I will say it's kind of cold in LA today or cold in air quotes, but I will force a jacket, absolutely. I mean, I think that it's interesting to know kind of the career possibilities, and you spoke with this a little bit, but...

Abby (40:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (40:18)
I think that there were a lot of questions that came through. You asked your followers some of their top questions about your career, and I really wanna get to some of those because there were tons of wanting to know how to pursue roles in design. That's such a vague question, right? So I suppose let's start with like, what advice would you give to someone who's considering a path into, I'll say a technical creative field, because design is both technical and creative, and there is that kind of marriage there. So what would be the advice that you would give to someone to kind of evaluate, is this the right path for me?

Abby (40:48)
Yeah, I think for me, I got very lucky in that I was working as a designer in the digital, like, ad space, like a digital designer, before I discovered UX or when I discovered UX. And the agency that I was at the time also had a small UX department, discipline. So I was able to look at peers of mine, kind of see what type of work they were doing.

We had an amazing UX leader who was this woman who was just incredible. So I got to kind of like look over and see what this other department was doing and kind of wiggle my way in there, adopt them as some of my friends, kind of figure out like, hey, how did you get to where you are? Like, what do you like about this field? So I got to do almost like a bit of user research.

Lauren Alvarez (41:38)
Hmm.

Abby (41:44)
and figure out like, is this something that I would also like to do? So I think talking to people who are in the industry, who do something that you're like, hey, that job sounds really cool. Tell me about what it is on a day to day. Kind of find out what it means. Cause you know, we see these end products on Dribbble, right? These beautiful screen interactions and animations, but it's hard to know like, what does that job actually look like? Are you just sitting at your computer and like making pixels, which is not the job at all.

Lauren Alvarez (42:06)
Mm-hmm.

Abby (42:10)
So one is I would talk to people who are in the field, and this applies to any job you're interested in, right? It's like find somebody who's doing it, maybe through an alumni network or through your LinkedIn network or just your personal network. See if they'll chat with you for a little bit, ask them what their day-to-day is like, ask them what their favorite part about their job is, what the least favorite part about the job is, and see if that stuff seems interesting to you. Like I said, like is that how you wanna spend your day-to-day because that's what your job is, that's what your life is, right? It's just accumulation of lots and lots of days.

Lauren Alvarez (42:35)
Yeah.

Abby (42:41)
So chat with them, see if it's something that's interesting to you, find out what their path was. Everybody's got a unique path, so figure out what their path was to get there. You can either do, like I did a boot camp just to help kind of validate that I was interested in this sort of adjacent career to what I was doing. So you can do a boot camp or you can do, there are like free classes online now or online classes that you can take.

that can help you learn some skills, see if you like doing it, see if it tickles your brain in all those ways. And then I think another thing is getting a portfolio ready, which a boot camp can help you with. You could just do self-initiated projects. And then it's just about getting that first job, right? Whether it's an internship, an entry-level position, a short-term contract gig.

I think finding that first job is the hardest part. Just getting the first job on the resume for the switch that you wanna make. But there are many different ways that you can do that. Like I said, it could be an internship, it could be a contract gig, it could be pro bono. Finding a nonprofit, a local nonprofit, where you're like, oh my god, their website is really bad. Let me just take a pass at this. You don't even need to contact them. You can totally just be on your own.

Lauren Alvarez (43:38)
Hmm.

Abby (44:01)
But building up a little portfolio then in order to kind of get your first job.

Lauren Alvarez (44:07)
I mean, I love that too because what you mentioned with the questions, you know, it is specific questions. You know, I will say nothing makes me more crazy than when someone's like, I'd love to pick your brain. I think it shows a short-sightedness of like, you're not acknowledging that like this person is busy potentially, and most likely, like, aren't we all busy like at some level? And so saying you want to pick my brain.

Abby (44:24)
Mm-hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (44:27)
I don't really know what I'm walking into. Are you gonna ask me about my childhood? Are you gonna ask me about the career? Are you gonna ask me about, are you trying to get a free coaching session out of me? What is this gonna be? And I think also being really specific with those questions and having the humility that you also shared in that, that I don't know everything. Hey, I'm looking to make this change.

your career is really exciting to be from the outside. You know, what's your favorite thing about it? Or were there any challenges that you experienced? Ask us how, what questions. You know, put your interviewer hat on and don't just ask yes or no's because you'll get more context. And then also recognizing that a pivot can be subtle. It doesn't have to be a huge rotation. You know, what you described pivoting, you know, ever so slightly, it was like, you just propped your shoulder to the camera as opposed to like doing a total, you know, 90 degree turn. And I think that is really important because people think about pivots of like,

Oh, I'm going to go from being, you know, like a, an engineer, you know, into being a human resources person. Okay. Yeah, that is, that is a pivot, although it actually works really well. If you listen to Ash tech besties episode, that's, that was what they did. And it worked out really great for them. But yes, it was very fun. And, and pivots can also be subtle. They can be nuanced. They could be like, I'm just going to adjust ever so slightly that I want to be more technical or I want to be less technical or I want to be in these different environments, even the pivot of environment can be.

Abby (45:35)
I loved that episode.

Lauren Alvarez (45:49)
can be really different. So I do think that you've kind of spoken to this sort of level of endlessness to it, right? Like knowing that there's so many options as a designer, that there's so many environments on all these things. What are your views on the career possibilities of a designer? It's a big question.

Abby (46:06)
I mean, they are endless. There's so many things that you can do. There's so many avenues that you can, like little paths that you can go down. Even if you are a product designer, a UX designer like me, you could go into consulting or a workshop facilitation. You could go into experience design, service design. There are so many things you could do. You could do more like product work like I do. You could work for...

a huge company, you could design teams, like everything is designed, right? I think for me and where I am in my career and the options that I have in front of me is there's the individual contributor track, and then there's the management track, and something that I think is so exciting about where we are in the design industry and the tech industry as a whole, is you can parallel, those are parallel tracks. They are, you know,

Lauren Alvarez (46:38)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Abby (47:01)
similar title, leadership ranking, similar salaries, compensation. But nowadays, in order to get more senior in the design field, you don't have to be a manager. You can continue to be an individual contributor, which is pretty refreshing, right? I think there are probably many people out there who are managed by somebody who doesn't necessarily want to be a manager, who isn't good at it, but it was the only way for them to advance their career.

Lauren Alvarez (47:15)
That's right.

Abby (47:30)
And so what I love about where we are right now is you don't have to make that choice, or you can make a choice in saying, I actually really like being an individual contributor and being really in the work and being on a product team and making work and shipping work. I want to keep doing that, but I want to rise in seniority versus somebody who's like, I don't really like making work anymore. I want to be more on the management side, people management, working on some of the cross company or cross discipline problems or design, things like that.

and you can go down that management route and you don't have to be forced either way.

Lauren Alvarez (48:04)
Yeah, I love that you brought that up and it's something I did really want to talk about because I think there is a conversation about how to succeed at the company you work at and there is that misconception about manager being the only means to a promotion. I think that's something that is really incredible and I'm seeing more and more companies do that. I'm helping them to kind of change their thinking on that is that individual contributor path or IC as we nickname it in our industries, right? But an IC path can be really helpful for somebody who really wants to go deep in the work.

And something that we do like on the HR side here, I'm peeling back the curtain for people, is we do something called the talent review. And we actually look at everybody on our teams, you know, in an organization, and we actually look at what their motivators are. And those are different for everybody. Sometimes it's financial and that's okay. Also, if you feel financially motivated and that's why you're doing what you do, go off. Please do that. Like that is okay to own your shit and to say, making money matters to me. We all have different things. And if you're not honest at that matters.

then you're gonna end up making a choice where you took a pay cut and you really can't afford to do so or you're having to adjust your lifestyle and you don't want to. So, side rant about owning your shit when it comes to financial. Some people are very title driven. Some folks really wanna be a deep subject matter expert in that area that they work in. So if you're a designer and you're like, I want to be the person who people go to when we're talking about personas. I wanna be the person that owns this area. Wonderful, I think that's great. And then there's also people who really get

They're druthers by like growing other people. And something I often coach on is, that there are managers, there are leaders, and there are mentors. Not everyone is all three. In fact, it's very rare. And when you are a triple threat, please, please plug yourself into somewhere where you can make an impact because like we need you, we really do. But I think that like you can absolutely be a leader and a mentor or a coach without being a people manager.

And when you're able to activate that part of your brain and you're able to give back in that way, I think it's really meaningful. And you don't have to put on the people manager costume, so to speak. And there's also people who are really meant to be a people manager. But if you're a people manager and you're a shitty leader, I don't think you should be doing that either. Cause like, haven't we all seen that person in an organization where like, you know that they don't like what they're doing and they're just kind of going through the maneuvers. And that...

really just absolutely destroys me when I see it. So, you know, side rant about, I think, the importance of mentorship, but I also think that you can absolutely be an individual contributor and still mentoring and still leading.

Abby (50:30)
Yeah, I mean, some of the strongest leaders that I've worked with are individual contributors.

Lauren Alvarez (50:34)
Yeah, definitely. And on the team level, really being able to get things done, ship the thing, learning from each other in those moments. I think Ash actually referred to it as peer ship, which I really liked. And I think that peer ship is like a very important part of it because we see ourselves in the people that we are surrounded by, especially the ones we spend the most time with. And hopefully, you're seeing something that you're like, oh, I never thought of it that way. I love that you did that. And all of a sudden you're growing each other.

Abby (50:43)
Mmm.

Yeah, I think something that has been helpful for me in thinking about the, you know, the different paths that I want to go down or even different like job changes or slight career pivots is just reflecting on what are the parts of my job that I really love. What are the parts of my job that I don't love so much? I don't want to spend my time doing that. If I could design the perfect role for myself, what would it look like?

Lauren Alvarez (51:25)
Hmm.

Abby (51:26)
And that can change and that should change over the course of your career. My perfect role a year ago or two years ago is different than my ideal perfect role today. So doing that exercise, doing it constantly, especially in times where you're feeling a little bit stuck or like, I don't know what I wanna do next, is like, what's my perfect role? What do I wanna optimize for right now in my career, in my life? And then being transparent with that, with your manager, whoever you report to, with your boss.

if you can trust them, that's not always the case, right? But if you have a good relationship with a manager, with a boss, and being able to say, hey, I've designed my ideal role, how much does it look like your current role? If it looks very different than your current role, how can you work together to make it more of what your ideal role is? And if that's not possible, then that's a good indication that maybe you're not in the right place right now, and maybe it is time to start looking for something else.

Lauren Alvarez (51:57)
Yeah.

Hmm.

I think that that's really strong to consider. Also, when you're presenting that to your manager, it's not always about, I need this change today. But it's like, hey, when I think about what I'm doing, about 70% of my job is all the stuff I love. But there's these other areas, and I'm just uncomfy with them. And maybe it's because you outgrew them. Maybe it's because you genuinely need to put in some more hours and some more reps and get better at it.

Abby (52:48)
Mm-hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (52:48)
or maybe it's because it's something that's like really not part of your job and your manager might not even be aware that you're taking this on. And I think that last one is something that people often assume that their managers know everything that they're doing in their day to day in companies like this. And let me be the first to tell you that

They do not. They do not know everything that's going on. They don't know all the things you're being pulled into, all the meetings you're being asked to join that have nothing to do with your job. So if that is something that is coming up for you, be sure to vocalize it, because there might be boundaries that they can help. I mean, when I'm in a people leader role, one of my biggest priorities is to block and tackle for my team so that the chaos doesn't permeate their workspace and they can just get shit done and be great at it. I don't want you to be like, you know.

Abby (53:27)
Mm-hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (53:29)
annoyed by the chaos if you don't have to be. And so finding people who will, maybe it's your manager, maybe it's somebody that you're working with cross-functionally, but finding people who will block and tackle for you and you can reciprocate that, that's golden. Like, that's what you really need to be asking for in your work environments, in my opinion. What do you wish more people considered when hiring designers?

Abby (53:44)
Yeah, I love that.

Lauren Alvarez (53:48)
Because I think that you've also gone in a really exciting direction where now you're in a startup environment. That's such a fast-paced and always changing. Building the plane while flying, it comes to mind as a thing we say. Are there arenas now that you've been in so many environments that you wish that were more considered when going into hiring a designer?

Abby (54:12)
That's a good question. I feel like I've been really lucky in that all the places that I've looked at or worked at Really value design thinking I've definitely as part of the you know job hunt process and interview process Been in conversations with some folks in the interview, you know in the interview process and been like

That's sort of like, that's a little bit of a flag to me in that I don't know if it's the right kind of like design environment for me.

Lauren Alvarez (54:39)
Mm.

Where they're like, can you start tomorrow? And you're like, I gotta go. Ha ha ha.

I mean, let's talk about how being a designer influences other areas of your life. I think that.

I mean, you and your husband, I'd be remiss not to mention him because you've done some serious self-led renovations, very admirable. You designed in so really beautiful clothes. I feel like you're always cooking up something fun. I mean, how do you balance doing design work all week and then wanting to implement that? Because you talked about it earlier with like being able to transition into the other parts of your life, but wanting to do design led projects on the weekends or your time off over the holidays. How do you balance that?

Abby (55:22)
Yeah, I have noticed over the years that the creative projects that I tend to take on in my free time are usually something that's also very functional. Like, I think that that's a big theme in the design work and the creative work that I do, is that it's usually like very clear. There's a very clear purpose for the thing. All the house projects and home renovation projects that we've done, it's for a very clear purpose-driven outcome.

And that's the same way with the sewing work that I've taken up in the past couple of years, is I get to wear the stuff that I make. And so I very rarely do creative work that is just about the process and just about the creativity. I sort of wish that I could. I think that is, I think it's very cool when I see people who are doing creative work where it's really just about that creative process and the end.

Lauren Alvarez (55:55)
I love that.

Abby (56:15)
You know, the end goal isn't even really considered. But for me, I don't have that freedom. I very much like want to make a thing so that I have the thing made at the end and there's like a function for it. But I think for, so in terms of like how, like design has influenced the way that my husband and I, like collaborate together and make work together, which is really what we do all the time, is...

Lauren Alvarez (56:18)
Yeah.

Yes.

Abby (56:44)
The, my design career and my design kind of education has taught me one, like how to very clearly identify what I like and dislike. Cause a lot of the stuff that we do together is highly subjective. So it's like, how do I know what I like? How do I feel confident that is something that I really like? So there's a lot of like observation skills, a lot of like talking through things.

Lauren Alvarez (56:59)
Mm-hmm.

Abby (57:11)
critique if you went to art school, like going to crit was just like, where you talk about your work, where you kind of talk about other people's work, and that's a skill. And that's a skill that we both have because we both went to art school. So being able to observe and articulate what you like and dislike, being able to communicate with another person, to like come to an agreement about things, that's like, I would say the biggest advantage that design, like the design process and design education has given both of us.

And then I also think that there's this iterative process to design work, especially in product works, very, very iterative. And that's actually the opposite of all the work that we've done on our home together and even sewing projects too, is when you're working on something that is tangible, that is an object that you hold in your hands, you cannot always reverse the clock and redo work.

There's a sequence to the work that you do when you're doing, you know, home projects and renovation projects as you know Very well, you have to sequence the work and you can't fuck with the sequence you know if you haven't reinforced the You know the blocking behind the tile back splash you cannot drill into it and put a pot rail on it It's just gonna fall off, right? So you really have to understand sequencing and it's the same way with sewing

Lauren Alvarez (58:11)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

Abby (58:33)
When you are putting a garment together, there are steps that you have to take that you can't do later. And that's been a very, a new way to teach my brain and to learn because all of the work that I do in my professional career, you know, sometimes it can be a little scrappy. And sometimes we say, hey, what's the most important thing that we need to do right now in order to get this thing out the door? And can we redo it later if it fails? If we don't like it, if it's not performing well.

Usually you can go back and fix things in the digital space.

Lauren Alvarez (59:07)
Yeah, that's very true. I mean, on that note, have you ever spent too much time on creating something that didn't pan out? And if so, how do you deal with this disappointment?

Abby (59:16)
Oh God, 100% has happened to me in my sewing creative projects. For anybody that's ever sewed before, there's like this thing that you do where you make hard pants for the first time, which is basically like making something that doesn't have an elastic waist, that doesn't have a lot of ease to it or given the fabric. And one of the first hard pants patterns, jean patterns that I made...

totally didn't fit me. I think I used like the wrong size. And then I was like, I can save these. I looked up some ways, some like things on YouTube of like, how can I fix these and make these work? And then the fix that I did just ended up ruining them even more. And it was so bad that it was completely unfixable. And I've never done this before, but I threw away the garment, which like if you're in the slow fashion space and the sewing space, you don't do that, right? You unpick it or you use the, you know, you use it for something else. But I was so...

Lauren Alvarez (1:00:02)
Ha ha.

Abby (1:00:10)
traumatized by the mistakes that I had made that I was like, I need this out of my house. I need to get rid of it. But yeah, huge fail.

Lauren Alvarez (1:00:14)
Yeah, totally. I mean, that was me the first time I made macarons, or tried, I threw them in the trash because they were like totally stuck to the wax paper. They completely like indented, they look like buttons. And I was like, you know what? They're probably still gonna taste okay, but I'm mortified and these are just going in the trash. So I get it. I mean, sometimes you just gotta like say no. You have to say, absolutely not, I'm not doing this. I mean,

Abby (1:00:34)
Mm-hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (1:00:41)
When have you grown the most in your life? Looking back, you've had this really exciting projection into design in your career. There's a lot left to do, but looking back on that, what can you pinpoint as that area of the most growth for you and maybe what even caused that?

Abby (1:00:57)
biggest change and growth area in my career is when I moved from design agency to in-house product side. And I made that choice very intentionally. I liked agency work. I think you learn so much working in an agency. It's fast paced, you're always on a different project. You've got client briefs and an external stakeholder. It really teaches you, agency work really teaches you about building a narrative, pitching work.

uh, talking about design in a different way. Um, but when I, after I had done agency work for a few years, I wanted to come to the product side. I really wanted to work with more cross-functional partners, more engineers. Um, I wanted to come in house somewhere and have sort of a longer, um, engagement with a particular piece of work. And making that switch was so, I learned so much. I was so different from agency life.

Lauren Alvarez (1:01:47)
Yeah.

Abby (1:01:57)
I don't even know if there's a particular thing that I could pinpoint and say, but it's very, very different. And it takes a while to kind of even identify what those differences are. But now, you know, after doing it for a few years, I'm like, oh, that is so different working product side, which I actually prefer. But I'm very glad I did the agency work. But yeah, I think coming from agency side to in-house product company.

is the biggest shift in the type of work that I do.

Lauren Alvarez (1:02:30)
I love that. And I think that having a driver of that kind of compass that's in you is really important. I mean, knowing that is a litmus for you and how you move through the space, who or what are your favorite brands right now? Who do you think is doing business right? Who do you align with? Because I think there's so much intention, I'd be remiss not to ask you.

Abby (1:02:50)
Yeah, I'm gonna talk about some slow fashion brands who I love. I think there are some brands that are just at the top of, they are working in either totally circular fashion or repurposing, upcycling, ethical production as sustainably made as you can. So I will mention, I have to mention the Consistency Project.

Lauren Alvarez (1:02:53)
Great.

You just did a collab with them.

Abby (1:03:20)
Those are my girls. They are based in Brooklyn. They just opened a storefront in Boram Hill, I believe, or downtown Brooklyn. They're amazing, really focusing on either dead stock, dead stock materials or surplus materials from current brands. They kind of buy the seconds, if you will, repurpose them, remake them, upcycle them.

They do a lot of vintage, but really just are incredible, incredible company. Then there's also Selena Sanders. She's based in LA, and she does upcycling with vintage textiles. She does a lot of, she'll sort of make these incredible blouses and dresses out of old tea towels, beautiful pattern pieces, and it's all one of a kind, all handmade, and she works with...

Lauren Alvarez (1:04:08)
Mmm.

Abby (1:04:15)
I think Sewer is based in LA. And then the third is Suey Shop also in Los Angeles. And they focus on a lot of upcycling and repurposing materials and clothing. And they also do this really cool thing called the Community Dye Bath, where you can bring clothing, textiles, bed sheets, like anything you want, you can bring them and they dye them for you. So if you have an old,

Lauren Alvarez (1:04:17)
Amazing.

Abby (1:04:44)
you know, maybe an old sheet that has like a bleach stain or it just needs a color refresh, you can come bring your stuff in and they do this community dye bath and you basically get like a brand new item out of it.

Lauren Alvarez (1:04:57)
That's so fun. I just, I had no idea that was even a thing, but that's how I'm like already thinking of a few pieces. I'm like, I should just bring them. I should just do it. I can't believe we're coming up on time. I mean, what goals are you pursuing right now that you're able to tell us about? I know you just did your collaboration with the consistency project. Super cool. What goals are on deck for Abby maybe as we speed toward holidays in 2024?

Abby (1:05:18)
It's so funny that we're talking about goals, because I feel like at the beginning of this, I was like, I really like setting goals.

Lauren Alvarez (1:05:25)
I know, I'm asking you this for a reason.

Abby (1:05:29)
Oh man, um...

Yeah, I would say one thing that I am, this is more just like a personal thing that is not super obvious or even identifiable by anyone else, but I'm just really trying to think more about what I want my design career to look like in the next couple of years. I made a really big change about a year ago to go from a big fan company to a startup. I made that change very intentionally. I wanted to go to a much smaller company.

Lauren Alvarez (1:05:36)
Yeah.

I love that.

Abby (1:06:01)
And I am still getting used to how the differences and how what I'm learning, what I'm loving. And if you know, if it is where I want to be in the next couple of years, which my hypothesis is yes, but constantly reflecting on that, and just making sure that I'm still doing what I want to be doing, spending my time the way I want to spend it growing in all the ways that I want to grow and just continuing to.

push myself in new directions.

Lauren Alvarez (1:06:32)
I mean, I think that's incredible. And also like that, you know what, you're right. Like it doesn't have to always be externally visible. The work that we're doing, like working in private or whatever you want to call it is also really impactful. And it's something that like, we don't have to announce everything we're up to. And I think that that's a world that we live in right now where we're constantly, you know, external about things online. It's okay to have something that's just like.

for you that you're working on and it's not visible. I love that. I mean, Abby, where can people go to learn more about you and the work that you're doing? What would you like to share with us here?

Abby (1:07:04)
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. I'm Abbey on the internet. I do have a blog that I don't update anymore, but that's abbeyontheinternet.com. And if you wanna connect on all things like product design career, you can just find me on LinkedIn. My name is Abbey Mills.

Lauren Alvarez (1:07:15)
We love it.

I love that. What is one final thought you want to leave our listeners with today?

Abby (1:07:28)
My final thought is kind of connected to the goal question that you had for me, and that is, if you know what your goals are, tell other people about them. I have found that the more vocal I am about the things that I want in my life or in my career, the more those things actually come to you. I used to think earlier on, I don't wanna tell anyone about my goals because what if they don't happen? But...

Lauren Alvarez (1:07:41)
Mm.

Abby (1:07:56)
What I have found is that other people are often integral to helping you reach your goals. So if you talk to people, especially people who have some sort of influence or have some kind of leadership or may be able to help you reach those goals, just be vocal about them. Tell people what you want. You will either find out very quickly that the people around you don't give a shit about your goals and they're not going to help you, in which case it's time to go somewhere else,

Lauren Alvarez (1:08:19)
Oop.

Abby (1:08:23)
Or you will realize that, wow, the people in my life really care about helping me. And if they have the ability to, they will. So tell people what you want, tell people what your goals are, and you will be pleasantly surprised.

Lauren Alvarez (1:08:38)
I love that. Abby, thank you so much for being here today. This has been another episode of Don't Fuck This Up, the podcast answering the ultimate question, how the fuck did you land that cool job? I'm your host, Lauren Alvarez, and I'll talk to you next week.