Episode 16 of Don’t F*ck This Up is here, and this week, Lauren sits down with director, writer and producer, Gavin Bellour. They discuss his incredibly dynamic career straddling the commercial, editorial, content and advertising worlds, the happy accident that led to his first gig, and the struggle to find balance between being over- and under-prepared.
Gavin also offers a hearty helping of advice to aspiring directors and folks looking to grow their professional networks, and why coming in with altitude and authority will always bring more impact.
Download, review, and follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez
Follow Gavin on IG: @gavinbellour
Check out Gavin's work: www.gavinbellour.com
Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!
Episode 16 of Don’t F*ck This Up is here, and this week, Lauren sits down with director, writer and producer, Gavin Bellour. They discuss his incredibly dynamic career straddling the commercial, editorial, content and advertising worlds, the happy accident that led to his first gig, and the struggle to find balance between being over- and under-prepared.
Gavin also offers a hearty helping of advice to aspiring directors and folks looking to grow their professional networks, and why coming in with altitude and authority will always bring more impact.
Download, review, and follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez
Follow Gavin on IG: @gavinbellour
Check out Gavin's work: www.gavinbellour.com
Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!
Lauren Alvarez (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of Don't Fuck This Up. Today we have an amazing guest. I'm joined by Gavin Bellour Gavin, it is my honor to welcome you to Don't Fuck This Up.
Gavin Bellour (00:11)
Oh my God, you're so sweet. It's great to be here. This is super fun.
Lauren Alvarez (00:14)
I mean, it's great to have you. It's wonderful. Yeah. And you know what? I'm really, I was putting thought around, you know, how we even begin this conversation because you've had, as you said, you hate titles. I mean, you've been a director, a creative director. You've been in the content space. We're going to talk about all of it. But first of all, how are you doing?
Gavin Bellour (00:34)
Oh my gosh, I think I'm great. I, yeah, thank you. I have this weird like kind of dichotomy of, I'm like a hyper extrovert, but also like an insane introvert. So like the minute you ask me how I'm doing, I'm like, I'm great, I'm great. And then I'm like immediately scanning all the cockles of my soul and like, am I okay? Is that okay over there? What's happening? I don't know. So like now there's a whole part of me in the background that's like checking every place, but so far so good. So I like.
Lauren Alvarez (00:38)
I think you're great.
Yeah.
What did you find in your checking? Nothing stood out. You're good, right?
Gavin Bellour (01:05)
Nothing. Yeah. It's sort of like a software background check and it'll just kind of run like a wheel. And, you know, if you, if I start crying in the middle of our interview, I'll just let you know, you know, but I think I'm good. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, no, things are good. I'm trying to kind of, without being too woo woo, just be a little bit more like, you know, observing what you have kind of thing, you know, and just because I started getting the habit of like,
Lauren Alvarez (01:14)
Yeah, I'll just do a little ca-caw.
Hehehe
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (01:32)
You know, looking for that next thing. And I think as creative people are always trying to do that or anybody really. And it's always that next thing that we want to do. And we kind of forget that like, you kind of maybe even get to the mountain top and you got to the plateau and you kind of got to like appreciate that. So with all that in mind, like I can't really complain. I have everything I need and most of what I want. So, you know, there you go. I'm, I guess I'm doing pretty good.
Lauren Alvarez (01:53)
I love that. You know, it's funny, I'm not woo either, but being in LA now for a few years, you start to kind of by proxy get a little bit of it. So I did, I was at an event and there was a tarot reader who I was like, I guess I'm gonna have to do this because everyone's saying I should do it. And I don't remember what card she drew or anything, but she did tell me that I need to be better about pausing and being more celebratory. And I thought that was such a cute observation and maybe it was just general.
Gavin Bellour (02:16)
Hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (02:19)
BS and it came my way and here we are. But I think about it all the time and that was like five years ago. So it was like, you know, you really are just onto the next, onto the next, onto the next all the time. And you need to just pause and reflect and be celebratory and like what an opportunity, right?
Gavin Bellour (02:33)
Totally, totally. Wait, we forgot to ask, how are you?
Lauren Alvarez (02:35)
Yeah. Oh, thanks for asking. You know what? I'm great. I mean, my kid just turned 12 weeks, so it's like, what the fuck? That flew by.
Gavin Bellour (02:46)
Oh my God, how's that going?
Lauren Alvarez (02:47)
I know. It's a total party. It's awesome. I mean, it's like the most humbling, incredible, amazing experience But I mean, you're a father of four, is that right?
Gavin Bellour (02:58)
Yes, I have a small tribe that someone let me be in charge of. I'm not sure how I got that job, but I guess I do know how I got the job. But you know.
Lauren Alvarez (03:02)
I mean, I like it.
Yeah, I mean, you're...
I think I know how you got the job too. Yeah, I mean, yeah, totally. And if you don't know, then there's a different podcast for that. I'm not sure which one it is, but it's not this one. Yeah, totally. I mean, that's so interesting, you know, being in the professional space, but also being, you know,
Gavin Bellour (03:11)
Yeah, I think we all do.
Yeah. Different podcast. Yeah.
Lauren Alvarez (03:26)
now a professional dad, right? I mean, what is it like for you to balance your time? Because I mean, there's never enough hours in the day and I'm finding myself always wondering, am I gonna miss a moment? Am I gonna miss this thing that's happening? I'm never gonna get it back. So how do you balance being full force with your career and being full force as a dad and where do you kind of hold that tension?
Gavin Bellour (03:49)
Wow. It's tough. It's like, it is kind of a, I don't want to say a daily struggle, because that makes it sound a little aggressive, but it's definitely like, you know, I think the first part of it is just you automatically become more efficient out of necessity. You know, you, you know, as we get older, I think we sort of start to sort of trim down on, you know, behaviors, relationships, whatever, that kind of aren't bringing us as much good stuff, you know, but you kind of do that, do that, do that. And then you just become
Lauren Alvarez (04:02)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (04:17)
much better at finding the time and doing things faster and just continually kind of streamlining a little bit, even just not even with that, without even thinking it, I think. And then when you hit little roadblocks, you kind of have to look at your life and be like, okay, well, maybe I got to say no to that. Or maybe I say yes to that. Or let me talk to my partner and figure out, okay, how do we make this work? So I think for me lately, it has been like, for me lately, the thing that's been really,
Lauren Alvarez (04:27)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (04:46)
helpful has been to start to do just wake up early, frankly, and get like a little morning routine going on. Like ages ago, probably 20 years ago, my mom bought me like Artist's Way. So anybody who's out there is familiar with it. A lot of writers and writers blocky people, you know, there's a kind of an exercise we do morning pages and there's all this kind of thing. So I've done that occasionally through the years, usually with their respect to writer's block. Or if I'm just like in a really bad spot and I just need to kind of get the blah out.
Lauren Alvarez (04:52)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (05:14)
for the, you wake up stressed and you just like, and that kind of helped. And then recently the last three months that kind of evolved because I was just getting like buried and I was having a hard time, just very scattered, like kind of like every priority was an equal level priority, you know, work kids. And it was just, there's never enough time. And then you work your butt off all day. And at the end of the day, you're like, what did I accomplish today? I even have a good day because I have 75 things on my list. I'm not even sure. So.
Lauren Alvarez (05:18)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (05:43)
It's kind of a combination of like, you know, I wake up, coffee the hell out of myself, and then, you know, now we have a new baby who's about 10 months old now. So like, he's been waking up a little early, which has been, thank you, kind of, kind of messing with my vibe, not messing with my vibe, because it's great, but the prediction is, and I let my wife, yeah, yeah. Dad hates me. No.
Lauren Alvarez (05:44)
Mm.
Congrats.
We're gonna play this back for your kid when he's a little older and okay. Ha ha ha.
Gavin Bellour (06:08)
Um, but you know, he'll wake up anywhere between six and seven 30, you know? Um, so I've been trying to wake up at like five 35 sometimes, and it's just literally, I go downstairs or wherever we are, you know, um, and I, I wake up at five, five 30 and I journal frankly. And it depends on what I'm doing. Um, that day. And then lately it's been initially just started kind of like morning pages ish. And then I started more journaling and then I started like.
Lauren Alvarez (06:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (06:34)
journaling just a little bit and then kind of using that time to figure out, okay, what is today? What's the like number one and most important thing, which of course turns to like three things, but, and then I have like a secondary list of like, okay, here's the other stuff I'd love to do. Um, and then that gives me like a metric for the day. And then whatever that number one thing is that I can attack it at that point when I'm fresh. So if it's like a writing thing, I'll, I'll do kind of free writing or I'll work on a document or read a brief or I'll just kind of like try to
Lauren Alvarez (06:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (07:03)
take a chunk out of whatever that thing is. If I have time, I'll try to do like a little reading. I can, you know, you know, or just find some cool like entrepreneurial stories or like a, you know, just try to get a little inspiration going as well. And if I can knock some of that stuff out or if like there's a personal project I've been working on in the background, even if I can like get in there, read and do like one line, you know what I mean? Like, okay, I did something on that today. Tick that box off. It may not be the most whatever, but at least it's a rep.
Lauren Alvarez (07:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (07:30)
And so if I'm doing that stuff in the morning, you know, and then, um, you know, cause once the kids are up for me, it turns into like, you know, I'm, you know, it's, it's flat out for a couple of hours. Yeah. Until they're at school and, um, you know, making lunches and feeding breakfast and doing all that kind of stuff. So that has really helped me because it sort of sets the tone for the day. And then I get production out of the way. There's something that I've done already. And I'm not like catching up. Cause by, you know,
Lauren Alvarez (07:40)
You're on. Yeah.
day and then I get production out of the way. Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (07:58)
Nine o'clock, nine 30, then there's emails. And if I want to sneak a workout in or whatever, and then all of a sudden I'm like behind the, you know, and then it's 10 30 and I haven't done anything, you know, and there's something about that both, okay, by the end of the day, I want to be here and I'm going to start now. Then by the end of the day, I feel better because I've sort of achieved that or I've made it, you know, or whatever happens during the day, but hopefully I've been like, okay, check that box off, check that box off to those things. And that's really helped me because there's always that massive tension, especially as like, you know, I think.
Lauren Alvarez (08:06)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (08:28)
I think everyone, again, I say creative people because I think everybody's creative in some degree or other. So it's not just like artists, but I do think as whatever that element of create that we all kind of possess, it's like you start to kind of latch onto a dream or a goal or an objective, and that becomes priority. And in order to really get that, you have to really learn and teach yourself to really prioritize that. And the one thing in my experience that like really butts up against that is kid time. There's nothing worse than like sitting here
you know, writing or doing an email or trying to do something and like, your kids just hanging out over there and they just want to chill or, you know, you know, and, and that tension inside me is like the worst. And so I try to structure it so that I know when that's going to be there and I can take time with the kid or, you know, the last thing I want to do is be like, wait, daddy's working, daddy's working. I'm on an email, I'm on a call, you know, cause especially with COVID kids, like they got used to that, they were, you know, we're videoing all day and kids are around and I don't want them to think that this is more important. So I try to compartmentalize where we can.
Lauren Alvarez (09:01)
Yeah.
take time with the kid or the last thing I want to do is do a daddy's working, daddy's working on an email and on a call. Especially with those kids, they got used to that with videoing all day and tipped around like they want to look more important.
Gavin Bellour (09:27)
And yeah, that was a long ramble, but hopefully there was something simple that you can take out of that.
Lauren Alvarez (09:35)
I think that's so valuable. I mean, yes, totally. And I think I've always been a morning person and I'm definitely finding myself enjoying that quiet time in the house before anybody's up, before it's still just peaceful. I can have my coffee. This morning I read a book. I was like, when was the last time I did that in the morning? And I was like, whoa. It was a tangible, very acoustic, it was a tangible book. And it wasn't a book about farm animals because we have a lot of those now.
Gavin Bellour (09:48)
Whoa, whoa, that's advanced parenting right there.
Lauren Alvarez (09:58)
It's amazing how that works. I think that some really good advice I received once from a great mentor, who was my boss for a while, and he said, there's never going to be a day where you just check off everything on your list. That's just not going to happen. You have to make peace with the point where you can close your computer and say, today is the end of my work day. That's the same thing with whether you're remote in a pandemic or you're in an office.
Gavin Bellour (10:00)
Yes. Yeah.
Hmm
Lauren Alvarez (10:23)
you also started out in the creative agency space, right? And so I think being in those spaces, it's hard to hit the off switch.
So I think finding the balance and saying like, all right, here's where I call it, or here's what I can do today. And I do agree that having a tangible checklist, oh my God, seeing the little check mark, there's something about it, it's so nice. The best.
Gavin Bellour (10:41)
Ugh, it's the best, it's the best. Just like that little whiteboard squeak, crossing it out. The best sound in the world. Yeah.
Lauren Alvarez (10:47)
Yeah. Ooh, a whiteboard. Totally. I mean, you've had a really impressive career trajectory. I mean, starting off like in the agency space as a creative, you've now come to present. I mean, you've moved more into the film and the content space. And before we even like going there, I mean, let's talk about like early days. I mean, did you always know you were charming and interesting and creative? What is your earliest memory of being interested in that space?
Gavin Bellour (11:13)
Oh man, that's a good question. I mean, it's funny, because I never ever like.
being behind the camera and creating stuff was never on my radar. I came up kind of early on as like a performer. I was, you know, very lucky to be in a school that had a really great like musical theater program. And I was never in the musical theater. I was a total jock. I was a soccer player, lacrosse player in Washington state, which is like, if anybody in Washington state is listening, you know, lacrosse is not a thing. So we thought we were cool, but we just get our butt kicked by all the Canadians. Anyway, I would do,
Lauren Alvarez (11:28)
See ya.
Gavin Bellour (11:54)
So it was a little jock and then my sister was doing these musicals and we had this amazing teacher in junior high who did these like, we rehearsed for like six months but do these very, very like high level, you know, just very challenging productions. And I got roped into one. We did Fiddler on the Roof. I was in like fifth grade. I wasn't even in junior high yet, but they needed me and I was hooked. And so by the time I was actually in the school, I did a series and I auditioned and I just, I loved it. I was on stage.
And I loved the musical component, the audience component, the performance, just the whole process. And so I got really fascinated with that. I ended up going to school. Actually was, I wanted, like I, my dad was in the Air Force and I'd always wanted to fly planes. And so I remember telling my English teacher when I was in like junior year, I would do like jock school stuff. And then I started doing summer stock and like, not professional, like a theater, but professional theater, but like.
Lauren Alvarez (12:37)
Mm.
Gavin Bellour (12:53)
in like a local, like a local regional theater basically. So do that like on the weekends and in the summers, and then I would do my like jock stuff during the school year. And so I was pretty seasoned by the time I got to like mid high school and I had a teacher who basically was like, you know, I was like, what do you wanna do? I was like, well, you know, I kinda wanna go to ROTC and maybe wanna fly planes and I don't know. And she's like, no, you're going to art school.
And I was like, and she was one of the great teachers that just like smacks you across the face. And like, she basically helped me. Yeah, she was amazing. And she basically not forced me, but really encouraged and really helped me apply to a number of really cool, like pretty difficult to get into our programs. And I was like, well, cool. I love this. I just never really considered it a total career, even though it's something that really connects with me. And I was able, I was asked to audition for UCLA, the theater from a television program.
Lauren Alvarez (13:22)
Yeah, we all need that.
Gavin Bellour (13:48)
which was at the time really difficult to get in and I had a crappy GPA. Not crappy, but like 3.2 or 3.1. And I think the year I went in the average GPA was like 4.8 or something because I was like, you know, all the honors kids and everything. But I got in and it was like, you know, so that was kind of my first experience and it was a conservatory style. So it was a public university where you had, you know, the full college experience, but the school itself was set up very much like a conservatory. So
Lauren Alvarez (13:48)
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (14:18)
I got involved in like the technical side to help pay for school and loved that. So I was doing sound design and scoring while I was learning how to act and do stage. And I was very involved in like the underground theater program, which is like this kind of the side thing that the students did on our own. And so that, yeah, it was super fun.
Lauren Alvarez (14:33)
Super cool.
Gavin Bellour (14:36)
And we did indie films and stuff like that. And so my first foray was really music and acting. So for years after college, I paid my way through, after school was just, I got very lucky. I got an agent and did a lot of commercial work. There were some other side roads there where I worked in news and I did some PA work and I did temping and I did all sorts of fun coffee shops and bars and all sorts of crap. But I was able to make a living on set. And it wasn't until many, yeah. And then...
Lauren Alvarez (15:03)
That's incredible.
Gavin Bellour (15:06)
There was also a music component where I was in a band for a long time and we did kind of surprisingly well and we're touring in vans and opening for some cool people and stuff like that. And I was kind of felt like another past life. So my kind of about, you know, this is up in, I don't know, I don't even know what year this was at this point, but basically like I had done that. Those are my two gigs. And then I met my now wife and ended up moving to New York and was still doing a bit of that. And I basically just had a weird opportunity where somebody was like, we lost our shooter.
you know, for this thing tomorrow, like an editorial thing, and can you come shoot it? And just everything kind of clicked in the way of like, well, I don't know how to do that, but I know I could figure that out. So I borrowed a camera from a buddy, and I called another buddy and I borrowed an editing program and I knew how to do nonlinear editing from like Pro Tools and music. And I'd been in an edit suite enough having worked in news. So I just went and shot it and I just said yes, for no reason. And fortunately it worked out. I remember it was like Marcus Samuelson at like Red Rooster.
Lauren Alvarez (15:46)
Yeah.
and I was editing it and I was like, what's this news? So I just went and shot it and said, yeah, it's gonna raise. Fortunately it worked out. I remember with the marketing, I was like, then that's what I was thinking. I was like, I'm gonna go with the hangman.
Gavin Bellour (16:04)
you know, and it was like an editorial thing and we had to interview him and shoot the food and do the whole thing. And it worked out. And so that's kind of how I started. And then it was all just like, I made like a little company that was really just me and got some fancy cards. And I just said like we a lot and people thought it was like a thing because nobody, it was like the Wild West.
Lauren Alvarez (16:23)
I was like, all right, for our listeners, what do those air quotes mean?
Gavin Bellour (16:24)
Totally. Yeah, like I had a website and fancy cards basically. And, you know, I would hire friends and kind of did everything and bring people in and out. But it was kind of a fun space because it was sort of early days of like branded content when, you know, sort of, you know, 2000 from like 2000, maybe nine, 10, 11, when like YouTube was coming out and brands are trying to figure out what to do with it. And the only thing I know how to do was, and I say this with love is just like make dumb shit.
Like I love kind of making dumb shit and that's not a slight, I just, my sense of humor is kind of a little silly and but subtly. So you know there was a lot of fashion stuff that was very self-serious and branded stuff was very self-serious and I just sort of kind of found the niche making like content that was less self-serious and a little more like fun and found a little niche and then kind of
Lauren Alvarez (16:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (17:20)
made a little living doing that and that was super fun and eventually attracted the attention of this a guy named John Lamott who had left a company and founded started to find he left this agency called dogmatic and they started a company called mustache with three people and so I was employee number four or five depending on who you talk to
Lauren Alvarez (17:41)
well, just going back to like your kind of commentary, when we were talking about some things that we wanted to discuss on the show, I thought it was so interesting because you talked about the importance of finding a way to sell yourself. And even though most of us really don't love doing that, right? And I think that that's so interesting that you were so creative in that way of saying, okay, I know how to do this piece, I know how to do that piece. Maybe I haven't done the whole thing together and making it appear cohesive, even if behind the curtain everyone's...
Gavin Bellour (17:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Lauren Alvarez (18:07)
you know, not seeing you stress the fuck out, you were able to present it in a way that built trust and built rapport. I mean, how long were you doing that side of it for? Was that all freelance? Was it hustling? I mean, what was your day to day like there? Was it totally random?
Gavin Bellour (18:22)
It was pretty random. I mean, I kind of was able to find a couple of regular clients and it was a lot of like smoke and mirrors, you know? And I think to every degree it's a little of the, you know, there's the fake it, do you make it, there's the wizard of Oz kind of mentality of like doing something. And, and I guess for me, it was always like wanting to, you know, I wanted to do. I immediately realized when I was doing this, you know, editorial stuff, I was like, I want to do big spots. I want to do, you know, work with celebs. I want to do great content or not celebs, but just I want to work with.
Lauren Alvarez (18:26)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (18:51)
actors that are really talented on like the biggest stages and do good stuff with good budgets. And I remember talking to a friend like, man, if I could just have $10,000, I could do anything, you know, and like that's a tiny budget for now. But like, at the time, I was like, I couldn't even fathom like working with that kind of money. Not that that's a small amount of money for anybody, but commercials are, you know, budgets are crazy.
Lauren Alvarez (19:01)
Hehehehe
Yeah.
I mean, it's what it costs to get Linda Evangelista out of bed in the morning. So it's, you know, 10K is not nothing.
Gavin Bellour (19:15)
There you go. So, you know, I think for me it was about like, I was really just being selfish and being like, I wanna put the thing on my reel that will, you know, get somebody to give me a chance to do the next bigger thing. And then kind of as a corollary, I was like adding value. So I was always trying to position myself as somebody who did a little more luxury, could do a little something funny or a little bit of a bigger thing. So I was kind of pushing my thing, mostly just cause I wanted it on my portfolio.
Lauren Alvarez (19:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (19:45)
And then I would constantly take that thing and turn it around and try to upsell it to somebody else and then try to upsell it to somebody else. And somehow it kind of worked. I've never considered myself a salesman and kind of being back out in the freelance land last few years has been kind of a different thing from being in an agency world because I've had to kind of relearn that muscle and relearn how to hustle and send emails and check in with people and build the network, which has been tremendously fun because there are so many wonderful, amazing artists out there. And there's been a lot of cool lessons that like people I knew and people I didn't know.
Lauren Alvarez (20:12)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (20:14)
connections and like that's been really fun but it's tough because you don't want to have to be like hey I'm blah and I want to blah you know and it feels like a D grade but it's so important to do because if you don't put yourself out there like nobody else knows you're there you know
Lauren Alvarez (20:29)
It's a complete grind. And I think that can be really frustrating. It can also be very motivating, but there's days where you wake up and you're like, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna have to fly the banner and promote myself. I wish someone could just hand me the work cause I'm in the agency or I'm in the space and they'll do it. I mean, going into, you know, kind of advice there, I mean.
Gavin Bellour (20:37)
and I'm out.
Lauren Alvarez (20:46)
What guidance would you share with young directors who might be listening, trying to build out their own reel? What is the best approach? And there's been some evolution, I'm sure, since that moment where you were building something of like onto the next, onto the next, and how much of a prominence content has now. But generally speaking, what is that guidance?
Gavin Bellour (21:05)
I mean, if you can get paid to, well, look at every job as an opportunity to get paid to learn, frankly, I think is the thing. It's like, I was lucky enough that for the most part, I was able to kind of, I never went to film school. You know, I learned completely on the job and I just sold my skills through and figured it out. And, you know, if you can get paid to learn, that's obviously great, because then you're not putting money out to do your own stuff. Obviously.
That's something that I would have loved to do more, but I got really busy and I was lucky to do so, but now I'm kind of in a phase of why for like, I finally have a little bit of head space and I'm like, what do I want to make? Let me do my own thing, which has been really fun too. And that's kind of a new, a bit of a new leaf. But I think for directors specifically,
there's no better way to learn how to shoot than to have to edit your stuff. And there's no better way to learn how to edit.
than to mess up an edit or look at your edit and realize that you didn't shoot enough. So I think for me, that was a really pivotal moment where I spent a couple of years having to shoot an edit or oversee those kinds of things because you really learn how to solve problems. And as a result, on set, even though I rarely operate anymore, although occasionally they'll let me take a camera. I mean, I take it whenever I want, but it's kind of old shaky hands below and I usually just kind of go, hey, what about this? And then they're like, yeah. And then they take it and make it better. But...
The idea is that I can kind of now, as a result, having done this for years, I can kind of think with the edit in my head. And I think sometimes reputationally, directors get a lot of, you know, there's an old joke, it's just the least experienced person on set, it's usually the director, and it's often true. And I think directors sometimes have a reputation for being a bit, you know, sometimes being a bit confrontational or sort of having an attitude or having errors about them.
And I actually think in my experience, and I went through this too, you feel kind of insecure a little bit because you think you're responsible for absolutely everything. And part of that comes from learning to open up a little bit and rely around about the people around you and realize that the DP is there because the cinematographer or the DP is there because they're a better DP than I am. And I might have ideas and ultimately it's my call, but like I should lean on them for their thoughts. And same with the production designers, same with the wardrobe stylist, same with the producers. Like these people are there to help and you all share a vision. And your job is to sort of
Lauren Alvarez (22:52)
I don't know if this is too much to share a little bit, but thank you for watching. Have a good night. Mm.
Gavin Bellour (23:18)
crystallize that vision and ideally align it with the brief if you're doing advertising work or work for hire and sort of align everybody's vision so you're all pointing in the same direction as well as have like a viewpoint. And to the degree that you can learn the technical sides of it, even spend a little bit of time in the trenches working on camera, working on edit, being familiar with that at the very least of not doing it, you then have more confidence because you can think with what you're asking and you can understand a little bit more about it and there's so much
You know, I find when I ask somebody and I ask the right way that I get so much more Create from people who I'm working with instead of being like we should do it this way and You know that might not work and then people just start talking shit, you know And you as the director are not necessarily you're not responsible for everything You're ultimately responsible for it to create it and to create the vision But at the end of the day, there's a whole team and so much of the job is learning how to manage people and frankly Just like checking your ego
Lauren Alvarez (23:50)
so much more creating from people.
Gavin Bellour (24:13)
And being willing to fail being, and so much of your job is just making a choice. You know what I mean? And it might be the wrong choice. You can make a different choice, but the more you know, and the more reps you have at it, you'll be able to do that on the fly. You'll learn from all your mistakes and you kind of do it. That's a little bit trite, but it is kind of true as far as like just getting out there and making you reel you just have to make stuff and you have to put it out there and you have to sell yourself. And I think if I could go back, you know, a while to my beginning, I was very lucky, but I would say that, um, you know,
Grinding, getting in the habit of grinding, like literally find a list, find lists of people to connect with and put yourself out there and find a tone that's not like, hey, I'm blah, and I know you're really busy, but blah, but come with a little bit of altitude and authority, like, you know, come out swinging, be like, hey man, your stuff's really cool and I would love to work with you, here's my stuff. you're not gonna hear back from most of them, but you will hear back from a lot. And you make connections and you.
actually keep account of how many times you do that a week and try to challenge yourself. Okay, so this week I'm going to do 10, next week I'm going to do 12. And you'll find that you just by doing that muscle, it becomes kind of automatic. And again, you become more efficient. And then all of a sudden, 15 minutes a day, you're spending, you write an email, you research them. You can do mass emails if you want, but I've always found that like kind of really finding about this person, finding somebody that, you know.
Lauren Alvarez (25:21)
just by doing that muscle, you can have a lot of connection. Again, you become more efficient, and then all of a sudden, you're 15 minutes a day, you're spending 10 minutes, you're spending 10 minutes, you're spending 10, you know, you can do math, you can do all that. Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (25:35)
I usually don't just write to anybody, but it's like if I come across a creative director or a director or a producer or an agency and I'm like, oh, this is really cool. Man, I love this spot. This is a thing. You know, hey, check out my stuff. I'd love to work with you. And I've gotten in the habit now even of like as I'm looking for references on jobs and stuff if I come across a creative director or again anybody and I'll just reach out. And the amount of the responses you get, you'd think that, you know, you don't get them always, but like.
Lauren Alvarez (26:00)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (26:00)
there are people who are just looking to be acknowledged and all of a sudden they've made a connection and they're like, oh, I know this person and then that can evolve. And it's also just great to like acknowledge another artist who's in some ivory tower at an agency and nobody ever goes, your work is really cool because they're working all the time. So I think just like holding yourself accountable for getting out there and forcing yourself to. And I think I kind of really learned that because when I was at Mustache, there was...
Lauren Alvarez (26:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (26:25)
you get these emails, you know, people are, you know, DPs or producers or creatives or people are emailing you. And there was one guy that was really, really like, not starting, but I would hear from him and he'd be regular and he had this really cool tone about him and I would always want to look at his work when he'd send it. And I just liked his vibe. And so I'd respond to him. He came into the office, we met, never got to work with him. But like three, four years later, I started seeing him pop out of big stuff. And then I started seeing him pop up in bigger stuff. And now he's like a...
pretty well known DP, just did a big movie. And you know, it was just like, wow, this kid was just like, just out of, I can't remember what school he went to, but he was, you know, and he just really hustled. And I hate to be the one that tells you this, man, but gotta hustle, you know? And you gotta make it your own, so.
Lauren Alvarez (27:03)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that. And I think that, you know, also like there is a tendency for people to think that it's like, you just get lucky. And like, I've never once had somebody come knock on my door and say like, hey, I have a job for you. I have this thing that I think you'd be perfect for. You have to put yourself out there because like, especially now, you know, it can be really insular, really, you know, kind of like you're on an island of yourself. You know, we, most of us work asynchronously, we work remote, you know, we're not all in the same room. You're not just going to like bump into that person.
that works at the other side of the agency you never see, you're not gonna see them getting coffee anymore because maybe they're in Hawaii and they're working six months out of the year in Hawaii. Maybe you're in LA for a little while. And I think that it is really interesting to remind listeners and to remind ourselves even that it is a numbers game. For everybody who's gonna say no or who's gonna have a point of rejection or who's gonna come up and say like, yeah, no, like I'm good. There's gonna be somebody who says to them, hey, do you know anybody who could shoot for this thing at super last minute? They're like, you know what?
Gavin hit me up a while ago, let me show you his reel. And all of a sudden that starts some momentum. And so I do think that like those points of connection, like, you know, maybe it's old school, I think it's still really, really valuable. It's not just like some like open-ended LinkedIn ad, you know, there's a lot more to it. And I love like what you said about like the nuance and just kind of being specific, like having these carbon copy, you know, and I worked in the recruiting and HR space for a long time, having carbon copy, like, I know this is the email you sent every fucking recruiter at every agency in New York.
Gavin Bellour (28:19)
Totally.
Lauren Alvarez (28:33)
what is gonna make you think that I see you differently versus like, hey Lauren, I saw X, Y, and Z, I saw that the agency is doing this and I would really love to get involved. All of a sudden I'm gonna see you really differently because you took a moment to actually acknowledge what we're doing over here. And I think that there's a lot of value in that.
Gavin Bellour (28:49)
Totally, and everybody knows that, everybody knows, it's not just blind networking. I think when it feels like blind networking, it feels like blind networking. But if you're actually reaching out to people that you admire or wanna work with and you have something to say, I think that comes through. And a lot of times people are too busy to respond or they just can't look or whatever and that's fine. I think on the flip side of that though too, like I find it, I think that in any position you're at, it's your responsibility if you're asked for a favor or advice to then give it.
Lauren Alvarez (29:03)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (29:19)
You know, and you can call it karma, you can call it whatever you want, but it does a number of things. One, I think it does build up some kind of level of like, you know, like if you want people to help you, if you want people to mentor you, if you want some, you know, a response back, if you want feedback on your reel, if you want a job, if you want anything, you know, pay some favors down, you know, pay it forward. I think because you have to sort of, you know, again, corny, be the change you want to be, whatever, you know, like there's a truth to that. And then the other thing is, is like, you know,
Lauren Alvarez (29:19)
and then give it. Yeah.
There's a truth to that. And the other thing is, I think it's also tremendously validating, speaking of celebrating where you are. Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (29:48)
I think it's also tremendously validating, speaking of kind of like celebrating where you are and like remembering how kind of, when you have something or you've achieved something, like every person who's listening here has something to offer other people who are coming up or moving over. And it's tremendously validated to be able to like.
Lauren Alvarez (30:00)
every person in this community has something to offer other people who are them. Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (30:08)
say something and you know, it's all free advice. So as my dad says, like, it's worth what you pay for it, but like, it's an insight that somebody can react to or disagree with, but it's some nugget for them. It's some reach, it's some conversation. Oh, you know, you should meet my friend over here, like introduce that person to that person. Don't be skimpy about your contacts. Obviously there's a few that you might need to be, but like at the end of the day, like getting a job for somebody, I don't know how many times I've like, you know, had a friend who was, or somebody I knew or interacted with and.
Lauren Alvarez (30:19)
Oh, you know, you should meet my friend over here. Like, did you just talk to her about that? I mean, don't be skippy about your contacts. Yeah. Like, at the end of the day, like, getting a job for somebody, I don't know how many times I've had to...
Gavin Bellour (30:35)
We were both at a junior level or I was at a slightly senior level to them or whatever. And I made a connection and then all of a sudden that person now, you know, five, six, ten years down the road, that person's like the VP of something over at somewhere, you know what I mean? And then you did a favor for that person, you did a solid for that person and that person will like think well of you. And the thing is like when you're exchanging stuff, you're not just doing it for money. Like when you do a favor for somebody, when you do free work for somebody, when you add value to something, that does come back to you, I think. And I think...
Lauren Alvarez (30:48)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (31:03)
If you want that from others, you have to be willing to give it to people. And it also feels good. And then it also crystallizes kind of what you do know and helps give you confidence and a little bit of drive to kind of do the next day and do the next thing and do the outreach. And then you also don't feel like you're just asking for something. You're giving something back. So I find that to be really helpful too.
Lauren Alvarez (31:20)
I love that because I think that there is also this, this understanding of kind of take, take. And especially if you can imagine like being in like the hiring space, I mean, so many times people reach out to someone who's like a recruiting professional. They don't even take a moment to see like what they do or that like, Oh yeah, you're a VP of recruiting. You probably aren't like tactically hiring people. You know, and I remember just like receiving emails and being like, Hey, can you give me this job? And I'm like,
Okay, hi, it's really nice to connect with you. I think that that's something that obviously there's space for coaching for some of those individuals. Maybe they'll never want to be coached. But I think that if we always reach out asking for, as opposed to saying, also, what can I give? And you're right, it does feel really good when you're able to give back to people. I coach and when somebody is in a position where they're not able to sign up for a series of sessions of coaching with me and they're like, can I just ask you?
Gavin Bellour (31:43)
Yeah.
Lauren Alvarez (32:09)
two questions. I'd much rather someone, instead of saying, can I pick your brain sometime, be really specific and say, I have two questions, I know you're busy, when you have a second, if you could just answer X and Y. I love that. Just be really specific and let me know what you need from me and also I'll be more willing to give because yeah, we're all running 100 miles an hour, right?
Gavin Bellour (32:21)
Totally.
Totally. And the other thing is don't be deferential. You know what I mean? Like I find that like, you know, don't like, you know, just I feel like anything that stinks of like desperation, not that we're all desperate, but I think we sometimes are like, oh, this person's busy and I'm gonna, you know, like the first paragraph is just super apologetic. Just come in hot, you know, you don't have to come in like off the top, but like you have something to give. Everybody's got no time. You know, what's, yeah, just be like, you know, whatever that means to you, but you don't have to like apologize for reaching out, you know?
Lauren Alvarez (32:39)
Thanks for watching!
Yes. Yeah.
Have a little swag!
Gavin Bellour (32:58)
Um, I don't know. I think that was key for me too, because then it also, it also like it's a, it's a positioning and a branding thing for yourself. Like, is that your brand? Are you sorry to ask for help? No, don't be sorry. Be like, dude, I got shit to do, man. You know, I want to work with you. This is my stuff or I'm learning and I'm confident about it. And this is what I want to do. So like, I got nothing. I've never done a thing, but I know I can't. So like, what do you got? And that swag I think also sells through, you know,
Lauren Alvarez (32:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I love that. Like those are the people that I want to hand the baton to, because they're much more capable of learning new than someone coming in and saying, I know everything. So like, I just want to come in. And, you know, there's a lot of people out there who just call themselves creative directors, because that's the title that they've given themselves, but they've not actually made anything. And like, I know, and it's tough because it's like, you know,
Gavin Bellour (33:38)
Oh man. Yeah.
Lauren Alvarez (33:42)
the level of humility is also needed in order to continue to grow. And I'd rather somebody come in and be way better than me. You talked about this with the teams that you surround yourself with when you're shooting. You wanna have the best people around you. You're not gonna be great at everything. There's no way you could be. So figuring out, okay, what am I great at? And then what are these people gonna be better than me at? And then figuring out what that looks like, I think is gonna be a really important balance. And similarly, when we're hawking our wares or upselling our skill sets, then it's really important to realize
Pick three things maybe, but don't say you're gonna be good at everything, because I'm just gonna call bullshit.
Gavin Bellour (34:16)
Yeah, totally. Totally. I mean, that's a, that's a funny struggle too. Cause it's like, especially with directors, there's this kind of thing of, you can't be everything to everyone all at the same time. And, you know, I've got a weird situation where it's sort of unique, where I, because I was at an agency, I did a ton of different work in different verticals, you know, unscripted fashion, hair, you know, editorial, um, you know, comedy, everything, you know, documentary, all that kind of stuff.
Lauren Alvarez (34:18)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (34:43)
So initially when I started going freelance, I had everything up on a website and A, it had no personality, it was just all the work because I thought that was kind of what was wanted. And the comments I kept getting back when I would get meetings with people would be like, okay, first of all, I talked to you on the phone and you're totally different to what I thought. So you gotta put a little bit of energy into this. And also, what do you wanna do? I know you can do everything. And I run into this all the time where like.
Lauren Alvarez (35:00)
Ha ha ha!
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (35:07)
I can do a lot of different stuff. I've proven that I can, but I'm trying to jam it all into one call. And sometimes it's just like, man, I do this really well. And it's worked. I signed with a production company earlier this year, and it's been amazing. And they really helped me. There was a process up to signing with them, but then they kind of helped curate, what's our offering order? What is our niche? What's our toehold here? And it worked so well this year that now apparently my niche is like celebrities behaving badly in kitchens. And I did all a bunch of that this year.
Lauren Alvarez (35:36)
Yes.
Gavin Bellour (35:36)
And so now it's like, okay, I can do that, but let's, you know, let's now expand. So you have meetings with the reps and you sort of send new work and you talk about it a little bit, great, now we have that let's expand and let's show this side of things so you can build from there. So it's this constant kind of flex between like finding a real specific lane of what you want to do most and doing the work that supports that most. But also then gradually expanding it and then getting, you know, getting tighter and getting, it's a living thing that you have to breathe with a bit. And sometimes like if the opportunity is to.
you know, do something completely out of your lane, but you see there's a value there, then do that too. Why not? Because you can always transition back, but maybe not. You know, you really have to make those decisions on your own.
Lauren Alvarez (36:15)
Yeah, I mean, and, you know, obviously you're speaking about Kremista and the work that you're doing there. You take a look for 14 seconds and you see the Queen Martha Stewart, you know, you see Jessica Biel, you have a remarkable way of capturing their candor and a certain undone-ness that really comes through. It's so lovely. It's so appealing. I mean, thinking about, you said it's a niche, but I mean, how do you draw this out of other people, especially on set? But I can imagine, I mean, even in this podcast, I feel like we're, you know, we've known each other for a long time and, you know, we don't.
Gavin Bellour (36:46)
I don't know, that's very sweet. I think there's certainly a capability of just having been on the other side of it for a while. I think there's a nuance there of just kind of understanding a little bit what it feels like to be over there and how to give notes and what are good notes and what are bad notes. It's really not uncommon for experienced directors to be like, you know that thing you're doing? Keep doing it. And you're like, what the fuck was that? And there are a lot of...
really talented filmmakers that struggle a little bit with actors. I personally think that my way in is performance and I learned all the other stuff on the job because I think that we as people innately, you talk about authenticity and organicness and that's like such buzzwords right now. But I think humans connect to humans and they want to see themselves. They want to have a moment of discovery, a moment of aha. And so if something comes across as fake or false, it reflects on the brand, it reflects on the creative, it reflects on what you're watching. And so...
Lauren Alvarez (37:16)
Hmm.
Gavin Bellour (37:41)
whether it's a film or a TV show or an advertisement, like it can be the best copy in the world, it can be the best script or shot by the best people, but if the performance feels off, it doesn't land right. And so I always just sort of make that like the thing that I'm focused on and I go until we get the performance that I want, or that I think will work. I feel very allergic to anything that feels forced. So, I mean, there's a number of things you can do. I just think ultimately it's about like,
Lauren Alvarez (38:03)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (38:10)
I try to treat, you can't always treat everyone the same, but I try to treat everybody kind of just pretty much the same. There's celebs and then there's working actors who are very experienced and there's real people and some are very talented and some are really introverted. But I kind of tend to think everybody can work really well on camera if you just handle it right and you give them the space. And I feel like one thing that I do often is kind of like,
Lauren Alvarez (38:28)
I think everybody can work really well on camera. Yeah. I feel like one thing that I do often is kind of like, again, it depends, there's different types of power.
Gavin Bellour (38:39)
Again, it depends, there's different types of actors and you kind of have to figure out really quickly, like what does this person respond to and how are they gonna work? And if you do it wrong, that can cause a problem. But in general, it's just trying to be a person and I tend to kind of keep people off of, like I don't let them think too much. You know, like if I give a note, a lot of times it's like, you know, you just give a note, hey, can you give me that one thing more, blah, okay, ready, set, go. And you just.
Lauren Alvarez (38:46)
do it wrong.
Yeah.
and you just give it out, hey, can you give me that one thing more? A couple of whole blocks, okay, ready? Let's go. And you just, before they even get in their head and they're trying to think about it, they're just adjusting to it.
Gavin Bellour (39:05)
before they even get in their head and have a time to think about it. Obviously, if there's an adjustment they have to make and you can see they're thinking about it, let them think about it for a second. But once they duplicate what you're asking, I just have them go again real quick. So I'll do really long takes and just run people over and over again. And usually you'll get it in the can pretty quickly. So that to me, and then just on set in general, I crack jokes, I try to have everybody have a good time. So, and it's with the talent as well, but everybody gives you better work when they're having a good time.
Lauren Alvarez (39:23)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (39:34)
You know what I mean? So like, if the vibes are good, and even if you're just completely in the weeds, like you just make fun of yourself and, you know, like, I'm sorry guys, you know, or whatever, like, you know, it can be really stressful. There's a lot of money on the line and you don't wanna like, you know, make the client think you don't care, but like, I find that if you can stay confident, stay up, you know, not get too in the weeds, cause at the end of the day, like, you know, you're not.
Lauren Alvarez (39:35)
That's totally true.
make fun of yourself and you know like sorry guys you know or whatever like you know
Gavin Bellour (40:00)
you are selling products, even if you're making your own movie, you're still just making art and you can't get too significant about it. And there are definitely directors that really go for perfection. And I think that's its own thing. That's great. I don't mean to mean that that's not my style. Sometimes there's a looseness about it. David Bowie is one of my favorite artists. And he would do like two takes of a song. And he's just like, and he's got this beautiful and perfect voice because his communication comes through. So that's a different way to go. And as long as you get a person, as long as you get a performance.
Lauren Alvarez (40:14)
I'm sorry.
and he would do like two takes, you know? Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (40:30)
that resonates and feels like it's coming from a real place, usually that'll work. And I find that the ones I gravitate to in edit are usually the ones that just feel the most real, even if they're imperfect.
Lauren Alvarez (40:40)
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny. One of your notes was the power of totally winging it and other non-strategies. And I was like, well, first of all, that sounds like an amazing book. I'd love to read it. But I mean, this sounds like it falls on that category of winging it. Are there other times where maybe you've been less successful with the winging it thing?
Gavin Bellour (40:56)
I mean, I don't like, yeah, I struggle with that a lot because there is a certain power in, like I struggle still with like how much to prepare and how much to wing it. There's a magic to, at the end of the day, you can prepare right up until the point and then it's still gonna change. So you have to get good at making choices and changing your mind and you know.
There's, you don't have all the elements until you have all the elements. And when you have all the elements, you got to shoot it, you know, unless you get, you know, you, you get really lucky or in a really big job and you get to like really walk through it and pre-light and do all the things and really figure it all out, but still there's a magic to it. So you have to like create the framework that allows you to play. I think, and that's what I try to do. So it's like contain the improvisation, but leave a lot of improvisation and magic to it, um, and add things and try new things, but there has to be a structure. So it's, and it's, you know, there are times when I'm like,
Lauren Alvarez (41:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (41:53)
I'm over preparing this, I'm over preparing this, out of anxiety or whatever. And then there's times when I'm just like, and in fact, I'm not over preparing and I'm doing a great job. And there's times when I'm like, man, I'm totally, I'm totally, you know, I'm just gonna let this go. And then all of a sudden I underprepared. I mean, as far as like failures, yeah, I've crashed and burned a few times. I think my mind goes to like, there was a job that was like a very kind of man on the street, they call it.
unscripted thing for a beauty brand where you're kind of out in the wild sort of with a spokesperson who's a pretty well-known celebrity and you're sort of talking to people about the product and the whole concept was very unstructured. And generally with those things, it works pretty well. Like I was prepared in terms of the questions and the scenes and what we wanted to do, but generally like you kind of build a little sandbox, especially with really experienced people and you kind of let them run.
Lauren Alvarez (42:37)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (42:51)
and your job is a little bit more to like create the framework, keep them in the rails, maybe throw a creative hand grenade in there, you know, a little curve ball, make something happen, produce a little bit. But ultimately, like, you'll get what you need because it's the magic. You know, for example, I don't, if I'm talking to two people and they don't know each other, I always want to meet on camera and I'm always rolling because I want that real thing. I don't want the fake one. So in this case, I felt prepared. And this person was one of those people that just, she was a type of performer, which is...
Lauren Alvarez (43:11)
in this case, a belter bear, and this person who was in this, she was just at the former, which is not uncommon, but even in this situation, we just wanted to do it exactly the way. And so it was like, cool, so we're just gonna go to this space and go over here and talk to these people just like we're doing right now.
Gavin Bellour (43:20)
Not uncommon, but even in this situation, really just wanted to be told exactly what I wanted. And so it was like, cool, so we're just gonna go to this space and go over here and you're gonna talk to these people. She's like, okay, what do you want from me? And I'm like, well, I want you to go and talk to these people. Okay, well, what kind of vibe are you going for? You want me to say this line this way, blah, blah. And it was like, I was super unprepared immediately because I didn't have all the beats beated out for her because I knew where I wanted to get, but I wanted the vibe. And it was a bit of a train wreck, it kind of worked out.
Lauren Alvarez (43:38)
like I was super unprepared immediately because I didn't have all the pieces to feed it over her because I was a female. I knew I wanted to get it, but I wanted to get it.
Gavin Bellour (43:50)
Um, but yeah, it was completely like caught her back because I just didn't do my homework on her and what she liked. And it's hard to do that because people don't talk and everybody's got reputations and you're usually dealing with people through various layers of representation and stuff, but, um, you know, you just kind of figured it out. We figured it out and we got the coverage and we got the spots and we got it as warm as we could. And you know, it was, it was not my favorite job, but we got through it. So, you know, um, but it's always a struggle.
Lauren Alvarez (43:59)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, that's when you lean on your editing and post-production team and you're like, I need you to make this seem real smooth, real, real smooth.
Gavin Bellour (44:20)
Yeah, I'm gonna get shirts that say, we'll fix it in post.
Lauren Alvarez (44:24)
Yeah, exactly. I mean, yes, definitely can align with that. I mean, how has your role really like and your approach even changes the media landscape has? I mean, going from like TV spots or TVs, you know, in general and streaming social content, there's so much more candor, there's so much more instantaneous, you know, kind of like that instant need, instant satisfaction that we're looking for. How has that changed for you, you know, over the last like 15 years?
Gavin Bellour (44:51)
That's a good question. I think, you know, I'm sort of a mind that good storytelling works across all platforms. And human connection works across all platforms. Obviously platforms, you know, all the we say newer ones, they're all older now, but like, you know, all the, you know, the TikToks and Instas and all that kind of stuff, even Facebook, like kind of all really developed in my time, which is kind of crazy to think about. But
Lauren Alvarez (45:00)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (45:18)
As they have all come about, they all have little peculiarities and little best practices and they change and what's trending this week. And, but at the end of the day, like, you know, I think you have to be able to create platform intentional content, meaning I know what I need from that. And if I need a certain line to land up front in the first few seconds or, and be smart about how you apply those ideas. But at the end of the day, the creative has to be good and the performance has to be good. And so, you know, I like to think that.
You know, if you know how to do that, like I'm not going to change my approach to a talent really, or creative even really, based on the platform except for very specific technical things. And, you know, it's, we've gone through these phases of like at first it was like great, we're going to make this big spot and then we're going to just do cut downs, which they call cut downs is where they take like a 30 second or 60 second spot and then they just make it short. And then it became like, okay, good. Then it's like now we have to do, you know.
All right, we've got four different platforms, so we have to shoot four different things, four different ways. And so there's a lot of preparation in the creative and figuring out what works better here and what works better there. And the more you plan that, the better. But at the end of the day, I feel like my approach sort of stayed the same. I'd like to think it, because I do think, for better or worse, there is just a universality. We've been telling stories as humans since we've been around. And we'll never stop. Theater, music, stories.
Early television, prestige television, early films, Golden Age of films, and now we've got TikTok, and it's all just new ways to communicate and tell stories or communicate things. And so, yeah, like it's not, the idea of it's not new, it's just what you're saying and how you're saying it. And again, I think you just lean on the humanity of it. You get a good performance where the person's saying, like, what are you saying? And tell it to me honestly, and that's kind of it. You know what I mean? And then you gotta capture it the best you can. And I've shot stuff.
Lauren Alvarez (46:57)
Mm, I love that.
Gavin Bellour (47:16)
Sometimes the takes I've used or some of the best performances I've gotten are just, you know, we had $5 and we did crappy stuff. You know what I mean? But we'd made it look as best as we could, but it's funny and it works. And that's gotten me more jobs than some of the stuff I've done with like huge budgets and all the time in the world because there's something about that magic and we just nailed it where you just got the person to do the thing right. Or they did it right, you just set them up. So, you know, I think the hardest part about it, honestly right now is like, everybody wants everything vertical.
and horizontal, so 69 and 916. And that presents a lot of technical challenges from a framing perspective. Just technically on the frame, when you go horizontal, there's more information to look at. And if you're going vertical, you can only look at like legs and knees and stuff. And so it's harder to sort of add those elements that are the subtle storytelling things. And so there's challenges, plus if you only have a day and you're trying to get stuff for TikTok and, you know,
Lauren Alvarez (47:44)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (48:13)
YouTube or broadcast, and everybody thinks, well, you can just crop in, is kind of what the clients and agency often says, and the ones who are really savvy know it's a lot more complicated than that. And so there's a lot of managing expectations and sort of educating, although that sounds a little arrogant, but just kind of really trying to delve into what they want and making sure everybody understands what you can and can't do, and usually just picking one thing. Okay, what's the thing we're really going for? Do we care more about 916, or do we care about 169? Let's pick one.
And then let's like build around that. And I think that works with both the format as well as like if you don't have enough to do the thing you wanna do, but you're still doing it and your job is to do a $500,000 job, but you really only have $5,000, it's okay, what's making this work? Is it the talent? Is it the joke? Is it the location? Is it the outfit? Is it this one prop? Find that one thing that makes the thing work, put all your money into that, make sure that's right. And then you kind of just build everything else around and you know, rubber band everything else. But usually that works out.
Lauren Alvarez (48:57)
Yeah.
I think it makes sense more. All your money into that. That's right.
Yeah. And I love that you said that too, because I think like, sometimes that is the moment and whether it's, you know, truly a budget or it's like a budget of your time or just a budget of not having a lot of other opportunity. When you don't have a plan B, there is something really magical that like forces a hand of being your most creative, your most pared down and honest version of yourself because you really, if you don't want to fuck it up, you've really got to, you've got to just go for it all in because you might only have one take.
Gavin Bellour (49:34)
No.
Totally, and Lord knows I've fucked it up plenty of times and that's part of the fun looking back, but sometimes those fuckups are like, they end up being great. And that's the thing is like sometimes those mistakes are the best bits, you know, and you know, I'm lucky because my sense of humor sort of lends me to that, you know, and allows for that and that's kind of a little bit of my niche, but like, you know, I kind of like the mistakes. I like the weird stuff. I like it slightly meta. I like it a little bit, you know, when.
Lauren Alvarez (49:48)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (50:02)
there's a self-referential nature to it, or there's an overly long awkward pause, and that kind of stuff that cracks me up. So I try to incorporate that wherever I can.
Lauren Alvarez (50:02)
Ha ha
Yeah.
I
back when you were a founding employee going back to the mustache days
Can you walk me through some of the evolution there for you? Because you probably were coming up against a lot of change. And I can only imagine over eight or nine years and you went in one spot, you're really seeing a lot of evolution. What was it like for you?
Gavin Bellour (50:30)
Oh man, it was a lot of evolution. And it's funny, because looking back, and I think my partners would say the same, and it's funny, because now, Mustache has been bought by Edelman, which is like, it's a huge holding company, has tons of agencies, they're super talented, and they have like a, it's like a floor at like.
prestigious building, I think. And it's just like a real fancy agency. And we started in a shitty walkup on St. Mark's. I swear to God, we would have clients come and our crews fucking hated us because they would have to load back up like a third floor walkup. And you'd hear the stairs creaking and it was above, anybody knows St. Mark's in the city in New York, it's a fun place, but you don't wanna be on the fourth floor there. And it was like, it's old, really old. It's an old tenement. And I remember having
Lauren Alvarez (50:51)
Totally.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (51:18)
Like, I remember one big advertising agent coming for an edit and it was like the most embarrassing thing in the world, but they had to come in person and it was just like mortifying, like so mortifying. But you know, we got, we did the job and it was good. So yeah, I mean, I think when we started, like we really just, we just wanted to make stuff and we didn't, I don't know, we, we knew what we were doing ultimately.
And that's how we got the work. But like, we really kind of felt like we didn't know what we were doing. You know what I mean? And there was a little of that, like, you knew you could do it. And you would just sort of take big swings and then go do the next thing and go do the next thing and we would do anything. We would just say yes to whatever we could. And we fortunately had like, you know, one of the partners was a really just dogged salesman and a great like accounts guy. And we just like, just, you know, find the lead and just stick with them, you know? And then, you know, everybody just really brought something to the table. I think.
Lauren Alvarez (51:57)
uh...
Gavin Bellour (52:13)
You know, our first big account was actually, it was for Holland. So it was like a Holland tourism campaign, right? And it was a combination of like Holland and KLM, which is their main airline, and then like the marketing opportunities for like the tourism board for Amsterdam, town, city, and then like the airport there. And there was just a kind of big marketing conglomerate and they really wanted to increase tourism from the US. And we were up against like some pretty big,
you know, real agencies and we'd been doing this for a year or two and it was mostly content and we just kind of like, I'd worked with them on something before, just mainly kind of as a very, mostly just doing production services, had a relationship. They reached out to us based on that relationship and we, you know, came and got, took the brief and like really had no business there, but they wanted like a pitch for a whole campaign. And we literally went to a bar on, on an alphabet city.
Lauren Alvarez (53:02)
and they had no business there. So they went about the top of the church for a couple of days. And we went to a bar in a mid-city. And we took a picture.
Gavin Bellour (53:12)
And we took, we just invited everybody, because it was like seven of us at that time. And like the investment was like, okay, we're buying food and beer for everybody. We're gonna sit around this table and we're all just gonna throw out ideas. And we basically had a jam session with everybody. And out of that, we came up with a couple of great ideas that, you know, John and myself and Will kind of like vamped up and ultimately it was like kind of the anti tourism campaign was sort of the ultimate idea of it and it was a really big swing.
And we were, because we were kind of the dark horse, we were able to just like go for it, you know? And we came up with a great idea, we won the job, and then we did this for four years. And we were in Holland twice a year for 10, like 10 days at a time. And it was like low budget and crazy and super fun. And so it was just nuts. And it was just completely fly by the seat of your pants. We learned so much doing that. And so then to go from that.
Lauren Alvarez (53:50)
It's amazing.
Gavin Bellour (54:03)
to being, you know, the change that you see is like, you are just scrappy and all of a sudden, now you're getting attention and now you're getting real jobs. And we continued that tradition of saying yes, which I think was really cool because rather than finding a lane in that particular area, we were doing every kind of content. We were working with Conde Nast doing editorial, we were doing fashion shows and overnight turnarounds and we were doing broadcast commercials. And we would just sort of say yes to everything. And then, you know, I think at a...
there is a time with the way agencies are structured where, we were a really small agency, we were doing work sometimes for bigger agencies that didn't wanna work with those budgets. So it's what we'd call white labeling where they'd sort of sell our work through. Or we do work directly for them as production, but then there was a point at which they're like, well, are you a vendor or are you competition? Because this is when the landscape is totally changing. So then we started doing director brand work. And eventually the director brand work started to take off.
Lauren Alvarez (54:53)
Hmm. Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (55:00)
And we really, we never had retainers. We never, we never worked with agencies only rarely after that occasionally. Um, and we really built our business doing direct to brand and kind of like. Creative plus where it wasn't like a full creative services kind of thing, but it was like, they had an idea, they wanted to do a campaign or a spot and they had an idea or maybe not, and then we would, we would write it, but it wasn't a full creative services agency. And then as that grew, then anybody in agency world knows like then.
then you iterate and then you need more copywriters, you need more creative directors, and then it becomes this kind of front heavy exercise. And as a result of that, the focus began to shift from scrappy, fun production to big production, but with a sort of creative lead. And then the focus became that. So, and then all the new formats came in and we kind of started specializing in platform intentional stuff and being able to be the go-to place where you can come and be like, we have an idea, we need to do it across everything, go. And so, I think that's...
Lauren Alvarez (55:53)
So I think that was a lot of fun, but watching it change, and learning on the fly about how to do it, was a lot of fun. Mm-hmm.
Gavin Bellour (55:54)
That was a lot of fun, but watching it change and then learning on the fly, like I'd never been in an agency until I was a partner at one. You know, I was a, I was a director and, you know, you know, kind of scrappy producer really, and just sort of half salesman and kind of knew how to do some things. And then all of a sudden I knew it learned how to write and I can figure out, Oh, I actually know how to do this. And then you learn how to manage teams. But the nice thing about the whole process was it was all very organic for everybody. So there was kind of a gradient about it. Um, where even, you know, where we kind of all learned on the job.
but everybody was willing to take the dive and everybody was willing to try new things. And everybody in the production teams, we had a number of producers and then, producers, associate producers, coordinators and office PAs, production PAs. And instead of having teams that stuck together, one thing we did was like basically depending on the job, a different PA, a different producer would go to a different thing. So you'd have producers working with different producers on different projects, on different formats. So everybody got a taste of everything and everybody got pretty good at everything.
Lauren Alvarez (56:51)
Hmm
Gavin Bellour (56:51)
and was able to become kind of unified with everything. So our approach, much like my approach to like certain platforms and stuff, like our approach to everything became kind of the same. It was like, here's the story, here's what we gotta do, and you just do it. It wasn't like, well, this is a TV show, so you're gonna do this, or this is a commercial, so you're gonna do this. Of course there's changes, but the same approach and mentality and can-do attitude sort of was just the same. It's just another thing you gotta do and how are we gonna tell the story? And so watching it and watching everybody learn and get really good at their job and some of the best people I've ever worked with
people that started as like, you know, junior, you know, just very junior and got really good on the job and have gone on to do really cool things and hold really big positions at places and it's like super cool to like see that like, wow, that person's running production over at X, Y, and Z or this person's doing that over there. Look at that person. You know, it's like remembering when we were all just kind of like having beers sitting around a table trying to figure out what the hell we were doing to like win this job and like we're never going to get it, but we got it. So there you go.
Lauren Alvarez (57:46)
I mean, I think that's amazing. So when it came time to sell, I mean, what was in the thinking? Can you walk me through some of the thinking around that time? And how did you even know that time had arrived? Or was it a total surprise? Or was it something you all were shopping around for? Are you able to talk about it?
Gavin Bellour (57:50)
Did I lose you?
Sorry, I lost you for a second. It just went black. What was the question?
Lauren Alvarez (58:05)
Oh, so I was just saying, yep. So when you all sold in 2019, it was a really big moment. I mean, thinking about what goes into that and to selling, being acquired, things like that, was that something you all were shopping around, were hoping for? Are you able to even talk about it? What was kind of the impetus to that moment?
Gavin Bellour (58:22)
Yeah, I mean, I probably can't say too much, but I think ultimately there was a point at which, as I was talking a little bit earlier about the way that the balance of the business shifted and becomes a little more, it just takes more and more to keep the lights on and to keep people interested and engaged because you have this amazing creative talent and sometimes you have way too much to do and sometimes you don't have enough. And then sometimes you're iterating back and forth for six months. So the creatives who work in agencies, it's a grind.
Lauren Alvarez (58:38)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (58:52)
crazy to have to come to work every day and like come up with fresh new ideas. And it's, it is a real, you know, it's a lot of fun because there's always like a nut to crack, but it can get exhausting. So I think, you know, you know, kudos to anybody who knows how to, and can really manage a really great creative department because you know, it's, it's tough and, and it's tough to keep everybody happy. And it's tough to sort of keep to be in those creative departments and like stay fresh and, and bring all that stuff to the table and, and on, on demand.
Lauren Alvarez (58:55)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (59:20)
and then be shot down so many times and back and forth. So that can become very taxing, but it also becomes very, I think that can become, cost heavy both time and resource wise. So I think we made a choice that like, we wanted some more support. We wanted to kind of come in and have some people sort of help. And there was some, a series of decisions that were made were like, okay, we're open to this. You know what I mean? Like we started small and we built this thing and it's big and we can still run it. But it's time to kind of like, come up a notch a little bit. And so we're not.
Lauren Alvarez (59:36)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (59:49)
know, just sort of holding the bag if things sort of shift. And it happened to be very fortunate because we were able to, and it took about two years. And so we spoke to a number of different people, but the nice thing was that we weren't really in like a desperation to sell. We didn't need to sell. It was kind of like, we're open to this, whatever. And, you know, we kind of like showed our ankle a little bit and people, you know, fortunately, fortunately talked. And, you know, it turned out to be like almost exactly a year before COVID shutdown. So was the final sale. So.
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, interesting timing.
Gavin Bellour (1:00:19)
Yeah, it was, we were very happy because I think had we not had, I mean, I can't say for sure, but highly likely that if we had not closed that deal, you know, it would have been very difficult to keep the lights on and I would be really surprised, you know, had we not done that, had Mustache been able to sort of survive, you know, all of the COVID things. And it was challenging even with a lot of support and a lot of sort of corporate structure and some sort of friendly
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:47)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:00:49)
the benevolent overlords, as I would call them, but they're able to do so. And I think it's a testament to the people who, I left kind of in the middle of COVID for a number of reasons, but I keep in touch with them. And I've been always really just fascinated how they've expanded and continued to grow and the work they're doing and the people that are still there. So it's pretty cool to kind of watch from afar now.
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:52)
Hehehehehehe
I mean, you're so optimistic. It's impossible to ignore that in our conversation. You're also constantly rooting for other people. Where do you get your bolstering from? Who has your back? Where do you turn? Because there are those days where you're going to put your head through a fucking wall because something's not going right. So who pulls you back to poetry normal?
Gavin Bellour (1:01:31)
That's a really good question. It's a little corny probably with my kids kind of, and they don't even really have to do anything because they just kind of like, they look at you and the way they talk to you and the way they kind of, from that position in the world, everything to them is big. I have, my kids range from like 12 to 10 months. So like there's a huge range obviously, and the older ones know a little more and the younger ones are just more wide-eyed and wow, daddy, you had an email today. It's like super exciting to them.
Lauren Alvarez (1:01:48)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:02:00)
You're on a Zoom, cool. It's like, yeah, honey, I'm awesome. But I think sort of like, them a little sort of seeing what they must see through their eyes kind of seems fun. I've never been able to bring anybody on set, which I think will be fun at one point. Cause like, around here, I'm just like, I'm the dude who, I'm the dad. You know what I mean? And they kind of know, and sometimes we'll see stuff on TV or they'll watch something. And I think they know that, I do something kind of cool, but mostly from their perspective, it's like.
Lauren Alvarez (1:02:00)
I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:02:27)
I'm just doing the same thing everybody's doing. I'm just writing emails and talking loudly on phone calls and stuff. My wife, she's in fashion and she has a business as well and she's one of the warmest people I know and so easy to laugh at herself, but she is kind of a hard ass when it comes to me complaining so that weirdly bolsters me because I'll be like, oh God, this fucking thing. And she'll just be like, it's not like a shut up vibe, but it's just like, dude,
Lauren Alvarez (1:02:55)
It's like, really, we're doing this?
Gavin Bellour (1:02:57)
Yeah, it's like there's a lot of feelings over here. Just like look at yourself, you know what I mean? And it kind of checks me. Like when I have, it's not like invalidating or anything where like when I have real things to complain about, she'll engage that. But it's like, it's a little bit sometimes when I get the sideways glance of like, okay, bro, you know what I mean? Like just go take a walk and go get it. And she's real kind of, that's kind of the way she's gotten to where she gets is she just kind of like.
sees a target, wants to get there and just goes and does it and kind of damn the torpedoes. So that's been weirdly motivating because I'm a pretty sensitive guy. I'm kind of, I got a lot of strong emotions and I get angry easy and I get happy easy and I kind of float all over the place. So being with somebody who's a little bit more just like, a little bit more just like technical and like just fucking go do it and a little bit more about action than like, let's talk about a lot of shit. You know what I mean? Like that I think is a nice balance for me and I would have never thought that.
Lauren Alvarez (1:03:50)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:03:53)
But it's obviously worked out. So, and then, yeah, I don't know. I think just like lately, honestly, like the support from the various people who've kind of along the way, early on at Mustache, it was, before it was just, when it was just me, it was kind of me and some friends who were like, wow, that's cool work. And even that would keep me going for a little while. And then John was certainly great, my partner at Mustache and my other partners, Jeff and Todd and Will.
Lauren Alvarez (1:04:17)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:04:22)
and Meg and you became a partner later. Like they were just the fact that they would entrust me with something and that we were, you know, to whatever degree I was in control of something that was kind of where our whole thing was sort of riding on, you know? There's not a lot of pats on the back, but you're just like, okay, they're giving me the reins. I gotta go do this. And there's a trust there. And then, you know, the various people I've worked with and, you know, I think Kramista has been great because they've just really empowered me and supported me in a way that I didn't realize was a way that one was supported as an artist. And it's been really, really cool.
Lauren Alvarez (1:04:33)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:04:51)
best compliment I got that still sticks with me. This job I did over the summer and it was in LA and it was a pretty big job. There was a lot of people on set and there was a sound guy. And people in LA, you can make fun of all the different positions on the thing, including director. There's tons of like, you know, there's jokes about cameraman, there's jokes about sound guys, there's jokes about grips. But this guy, sound guys are, in my experience, lovely but often like a little.
you know, light grips are a little, you know, it can be a little crusty, a little salty and often kind of just like, don't talk a lot because they're in the corner and it's a tough job, you know what I mean? Because if like, especially in New York, but in LA too, it's like, it's, I wouldn't say it's thankless and the ones that are great are just like amazing, but it can be a very tough job and it can often be kind of forgotten and people sort of forget, oh yeah, roll sound too, but like, if they don't do their job, it's, you know, it can be a real big problem. So it's a lot of pressure and it's, it's not always like given the platform that it really deserves.
Lauren Alvarez (1:05:27)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:05:48)
So, you know, I always try to thank everyone after every job, no matter what the position, and just sort of shake hands and try to get to know people while I can because then it gets really nice to do. And mostly just because I like people and I wanna kind of find out their stories. And at the end of the show, at the wrap, this guy who'd been around for years, he'd been on a ton of stuff. I kind of, I remember him, I think, from being on something years ago, and he was just like a real Hollywood guy. And there's like no reason for this dude to come and talk to me other than just like, shake my hand.
rolled over to me right after we yelled rap and he just looked me in the eye and he shook my hand and he goes, you're good. And I was like a sound guy, just walked across set to me to shake my hand to tell me you're good. Like he didn't say thank you. He just was like, he just wanted to tell me that. And like this guy has been around, he works a lot. He's been on a ton of sets with a ton of different talent, ton of different directors and like.
Lauren Alvarez (1:06:25)
Oh
Gavin Bellour (1:06:37)
That to me was probably the best compliment I've gotten in years, just those two words, because it was just like, this guy has no reason, like there's no reason for him to go do that unless he really meant it. And coming from him, it was actually like super, like it was an honor, you know? So that honestly probably, things like that kind of drive me, I think.
Lauren Alvarez (1:06:52)
I love that. I mean, we're coming up on time. I mean, tell me, where can people go to learn more about you and the work that you're doing?
Gavin Bellour (1:07:02)
Um, I mean, I'm notoriously terrible on social, although I'm trying to get better. So it's just my name, Gavin, Gavin Belour on Instagram. Um, and, uh, you know, yeah, I'm terrible. Don't find it. No, I mean, you know, it's my kids and I try to drop, uh, you know, some more stuff. And I have some ideas. I have some, I have a couple of things that I'm working on that will be really fun, um, to sort of throw on there. So I try to keep it, keep it light and fun. Um.
Lauren Alvarez (1:07:05)
Great. Super, super motivating to click that. Yeah. You'll love this.
Hmm.
Gavin Bellour (1:07:25)
So just Instagram, I think my website, just check it out, gavinbellour.com yada yada, all the things, you know, the LinkedIn's, all the normal stuff. Yeah, and then there'll be some stuff coming in 2024. I have a couple of projects that are coming out that we're gonna be submitting to festivals and a few other things in development. One in particular that I'm super excited about that's like a personal project that has been coming together really quickly involving like virtual production and AI and like a really cool human story. So I'm very excited about that. And that's hopefully shooting before the end of the year.
Lauren Alvarez (1:07:33)
Yeah.
Gavin Bellour (1:07:56)
We have some plans to develop it further, but there's a number of those kind of things happening and I guess if you're on those outlets, I'll let you know about those.
Lauren Alvarez (1:08:04)
Ooh, I love the little foreshadowing. I mean, Gavin what is one final thought you want to leave our listeners with today?
Gavin Bellour (1:08:08)
Dun dun dun.
Ooh, that's tough. Um, you know, I think...
I think this is probably just like, don't forget to take care of yourself. I think that half the time I'm upset about something, it's because I'm hungry or I'm tired. We're all ultimately, and I don't mean to say this in any kind of like little kid inner child kind of way, although I'm sure there is that, but at the end of the day, the rules that apply to kids apply to adults. When you're hungry, you're cranky. When you're tired, you're cranky. And probably 70% of the times that I'm not reacting to my world very well, it's because I didn't.
eat or sleep or, you know, I don't drink anymore. I sort of stopped a couple of years ago, but you know, prior to that, it was like because I was drinking too much or too many times in a row and then I was just off, you know, and I didn't exercise or whatever. So these little things and you kind of hear about all the woo stuff and I know it's been a really nice upswing lately and kind of trendy to sort of do some of these things, but it really is like 90% of it for me. It's just like keeping those things in as best I can. It's not always possible. You know, there's late nights, we have kids, we are on weird jobs, we have weird travel schedules, but like.
trying to remember to keep that in and then just kind of look around every once in a while and be like, okay, this isn't so bad. Like, what do I have? What's good? You know what I mean? What am I thankful for? What can I be gracious of or gratitude? You know, that kind of stuff. And again, not to be too woo-woo, but just sort of like remember where you are and that, you know, do I have what I need? Yeah, I do. What do I want now? Okay, let me go get that. And that sometimes resets me a little bit.
I hope there was a helpful nugget in there somewhere, but that's what I try to do is just like my baseline to keep going.
Lauren Alvarez (1:09:50)
Gavin, let me be the second to say you're good. Seriously though, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been Don't Fuck This Up, the podcast answering the ultimate question, how the fuck did you land that cool job?
Gavin Bellour (1:09:54)
HAHAHAHA