It’s Episode 23 of Don’t F*ck This Up, and this week, Lauren sits down with marketing and brand strategist and the founder of The Curious Bird, Anjali Lewis. Anjali shares her career journey filled with pivotal moments and invaluable lessons - from fashion, to publishing and editorial, to planting a stake in the ground with her own consultancy.
We discuss what it means to build a career out of necessity, early bosses who saw our potential, and some memorable ‘cut-the-shit’ moments. Anjali reflects on her transformative ‘DFTU moment’, boundlessness vs. boundaries, and the thing a recruiter said that changed her perspective - and career - forever. Considering a move into consulting? We break that down, too. Tune in for actionable advice, navigational wisdom, and a recurring theme of fried chicken.
“I didn’t know what I wanted to do next but I knew how I wanted to feel: I wanted to be less stressed out.” - Anjali Lewis
Download, review, and follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez
Follow Anjali on Linkedin
Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!
It’s Episode 23 of Don’t F*ck This Up, and this week, Lauren sits down with marketing and brand strategist and the founder of The Curious Bird, Anjali Lewis. Anjali shares her career journey filled with pivotal moments and invaluable lessons - from fashion, to publishing and editorial, to planting a stake in the ground with her own consultancy.
We discuss what it means to build a career out of necessity, early bosses who saw our potential, and some memorable ‘cut-the-shit’ moments. Anjali reflects on her transformative ‘DFTU moment’, boundlessness vs. boundaries, and the thing a recruiter said that changed her perspective - and career - forever. Considering a move into consulting? We break that down, too. Tune in for actionable advice, navigational wisdom, and a recurring theme of fried chicken.
“I didn’t know what I wanted to do next but I knew how I wanted to feel: I wanted to be less stressed out.” - Anjali Lewis
Download, review, and follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez
Follow Anjali on Linkedin
Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!
Anjali Lewis (00:00)
Thank you, I'm so glad to be here.
Lauren Alvarez (00:01)
I'm so happy to have you. And it felt like a little bit of an utterly epic arrival because we talked about this at the end of the year, but you've been up to some fun things since then. You were in Thailand for the holidays, is that right?
Anjali Lewis (00:13)
I was. My family and I went to Bangkok for 12 days. And it's funny because people will say, oh, where did you go in Thailand? I was like, actually, we just went to Bangkok. And which is not necessarily the first place you think about when you think about a vacation to Thailand. But it was so fun because we decided to stay in three different hotels in three different locations or areas, neighborhoods.
Lauren Alvarez (00:19)
incredible.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Anjali Lewis (00:40)
in order to really spend time in those neighborhoods and discover things that you wouldn't normally if you were just in this, you know, small little circle. So we had a blast.
Lauren Alvarez (00:46)
Yeah.
I love that. I mean, I've actually never been to Thailand at all, but Bangkok always stands out as it's such a vibrant scene with food and it just seems like it's a really amazing art community. Did you kind of eat your way through the neighborhoods? Like, did you find some incredible cuisine? Did you have any favorites?
Anjali Lewis (01:08)
We did all of those things. So I was born in Bangkok, but left when I was very, very young and didn't go back for a very long time. So I feel like my child, child eyes remember Bangkok in one way and now as an adult, really experiencing it differently, but food has always been, you know, the,
the number one. So yes, we did eat our way through both, you know, street food as well as terrific restaurants and got a ton of massages, which, you know, sounds weird and random, but really necessary, especially when you're walking 10 miles a day around a city. And it's very inexpensive. And I think my biggest tip there is that, though things are incredibly inexpensive, tip people well because the work is still the same.
Lauren Alvarez (01:48)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (02:02)
So we did a lot of over-tipping, which I have absolutely, I never have a problem doing.
Lauren Alvarez (02:09)
Yeah, same. I'm always like, if anything, I'm gonna tip too much, but I'm never gonna be wondering if I tipped enough. Like I would rather just have people feel taken care of, especially like if I'm ever out to brunch. I know I had friends who worked in hospitality for years in, you know, as servers during brunch, and that was the dreaded shift. And so I still to this day just have a level of empathy for.
people who are working brunch that is, you know, far and above any other meal that I'm like, I will is 30% 40%? How well can we make we can make this worth your while because I'm also at brunch and I'm not drinking so I'm like the double worst customer.
Anjali Lewis (02:38)
Thank you.
During the recession of 2008, my husband and I decided that we would have an approach and it would be to eat less and tip more. So, you know, everybody was spending less money and we didn't want to shortchange those out there that are working super hard in the service industry. So we tried the...
Lauren Alvarez (03:01)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (03:14)
eat less, tip more, which worked pretty well for a little while because like, there's, you know, no one needs to eat the amount of food that we are served all the time. Um, but we shouldn't, we should leave as much as we can. So that worked really well until we just ended up like, you know, expanding the budget and just eating more, tipping more. And it's been a downhill since then.
Lauren Alvarez (03:22)
Yes.
That's amazing. So are you like, what's your favorite cuisine if you're in? Because I mean, you live in New York City most of the time. I know you also split your time upstate, but New York, I mean, I do think LA is a great food city since moving here. I'm like, damn, we have some really good food here. But
New York is like hard to beat. I mean, it's 3 a.m. You're like, I want Ethiopian. It's there in 20 minutes, you know? And so I do think New York has something special above most cities from a cuisine standpoint. What's your go-to? It's Friday night. You're like, we are definitely not cooking. What's your go-to dining out? What's your go-to ordering in?
Anjali Lewis (04:11)
Oh gosh, well this all depends on whether I'm alone or my husband's with me. So if I'm alone, there's a lot of guilty pleasures that go on. So if I'm dining in by myself, it could be fried chicken.
Lauren Alvarez (04:17)
Okay.
Oh my god, yes.
Anjali Lewis (04:31)
Or it could be, you know, a Cuban, like a Cuban restaurant that's nearby our apartment that I love. If I'm going out, I mean, it's interesting in the neighborhood that we live in Brooklyn. It feels like such a food desert and there's so many restaurants, but they're not really great. But most of them are Italian. So it is a carb fest. Lots of pasta.
Lauren Alvarez (04:49)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (04:55)
If my husband's there, we do a little negotiation and we often will order in either a Bare Burger or sushi. He's a lot healthier than I am.
Lauren Alvarez (05:04)
I love that. Yeah, I was like, I'm usually like the one that my husband's like, could we have burgers and fries and a milkshake for you? And I'm like, yes, also I can't eat like a frat boy all the time, so I was gonna find like the balance, but he's better now, but like when we first got together, I remember being like, okay, I cannot eat like you or I will not look like me. But.
Anjali Lewis (05:27)
It's a really hard one for sure. And we are really lucky to be in New York. And even though, you know, the food desert of my neighborhood is very real, everything is super close. So you know, we're not afraid to hop on a train because we've got a major craving as New Yorkers, I think at least me as a New Yorker. So it's all out there. And what my favorite thing about New York?
Lauren Alvarez (05:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (05:55)
is and they're disappearing so quickly is the all-night diner. There's nothing better than super late night breakfast.
Lauren Alvarez (06:00)
Mm, nothing better.
Yes, I love and I actually love like making breakfast for dinner at home too. I'm a big fan of like, what if we had French toast and eggs? Carbfest. Yeah, let's do it. But yeah, the diner, you're right. And we definitely don't have diners in L.A. Like that is a novelty that we don't have. So, yeah, for sure. We're coming to New York soon and I'm like, I'm ready for some diner food. I need some good bagels. I need I need my fill. But also, you all don't have.
Anjali Lewis (06:09)
Okay.
Let's do it!
Oh!
I'm so sorry.
Lauren Alvarez (06:33)
good Mexican food in New York. That is not a thing. It's true, yeah, yeah.
Anjali Lewis (06:37)
This is true. We do not. Yeah, and you mentioned we spent half of our time upstate. And up here, we're in the woods. So if you have a craving, it's a real plan to go find it. During the pandemic
Lauren Alvarez (06:53)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (06:57)
I made it a point to learn how to make the foods that we were craving, or at least I was craving. So it's like, if you're craving Chinese takeout, you better learn how to make Chinese takeout. Pizza, pasta, Greek food, Mexican food. And we started to make a game of it by making...
Lauren Alvarez (07:03)
Yes.
Yes.
Anjali Lewis (07:21)
meals, almost mini vacations. It's like, where do you want to go? Let's go to Paris. Great. We're going to dive deep into making really good French food. So that was super fun.
Lauren Alvarez (07:33)
That's amazing. I mean, yeah, I mean, one look at your, at your Instagram, and there is definitely a lot of really beautiful dishes that I think you've cooked on there. Like, I don't think you're snapping that at a restaurant. I'm like, wait a minute. How do I go to a restaurant, Anjali? Go there.
Anjali Lewis (07:47)
I do like the waiting moment as well. So it's not just the cooking, but it's also the presentation of it. And it's just so much fun. And it's very meditative in its process.
Lauren Alvarez (07:50)
Yes.
Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, you'd mentioned growing up, you know, that you moved when you were really young and, you know, left, you know, left behind Thailand. But was there a lot of cooking in your household? Like what inspired kind of that passion for food, for plating, for all of it? Because that's not something that you just necessarily wake up and decide to do one day.
Anjali Lewis (08:11)
Oh yeah.
Well, it's probably in two parts or several parts. So yes, cooking and food has always been in like very important in my family. My grandmother was an amazing cook, actually both my grandparent, my grandmothers. My mother an amazing cook. We, of course, when I was born and lived in Thailand till I was seven, it was all Thai food.
And rice was key. And I think that's actually where I found our, you know, created my love for fried chicken because my grandmother made the best fried chicken ever. And there is nothing better than Thai fried chicken. So if you haven't had it, go seek it out. And my parents actually became vegetarian and part of the time vegan when I was very little. So my mother being a really good cook,
Lauren Alvarez (08:59)
Yes.
Anjali Lewis (09:14)
actually made some mind blowing vegetarian vegan dishes. With, yeah, super, super lucky to have her in our life. And then, you know, as we grew up, like my grandmother here was an amazing cook. And so it was always around us and very multi-culturally around us. I never really wanted to learn how to cook or, you know, I watched my mom and yes, I was a part of it and I.
Lauren Alvarez (09:18)
Hmm.
Anjali Lewis (09:42)
cook, but it wasn't, it didn't become something that I felt very strongly about or found passion in, you're going to laugh, until the Cooking Network or the Food Network. So early days of the Food Network where there were like four shows on rotation, it was ridiculous. But it was, you know, this channel purely dedicated to these interesting humans that wasn't Julia Child.
Lauren Alvarez (09:55)
Really? Yeah, the Food Network, totally.
Anjali Lewis (10:11)
cooking food and oftentimes not necessarily the things that, you know, were always readily available. So that actually got me really thinking about cooking not just as sustenance, but really as experimentation and learning. And I very, very much enjoy it because there are like ingredients and formulas and...
Lauren Alvarez (10:27)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (10:37)
master recipes that actually become multiple recipes. And then the plating of it, I mean, it just goes back to you, you know, you eat with your eyes. So how do you present something in a way that allow yourself or the person eating with you to get excited even before they taste the food? And of course, you want to make sure that it tastes wonderful too. But
Lauren Alvarez (10:39)
Yeah.
Yes.
Right. We've all seen the pretty thing that doesn't taste so good. I'm thinking of cakes specifically. That's baking, but still you're like, oh, that looks great. And then you're like, it's foam.
Anjali Lewis (11:13)
It's so true. I know, and I am so not a baker. I mean, I wish I was and I do try, but baking is a really great example. That scone looks amazing, but it's sawdust. I have made my share of hockey puck cinnamon buns.
Lauren Alvarez (11:25)
Yeah, and it's so disappointing. It's so disappointing.
It's hard. I mean, getting the balance right, I lied my way into a pastry chef job early in my, you know, kind of pre-career days. I was like, yeah, my dad was a chef and I, you know, always grew up around, you know, food. And also just like I really appreciate that he told me, like, you can try anything once and if you don't like it, spit it in your napkin.
discreetly and move on. And I think that's like a good attitude to have about other things too, but certainly trying new foods, tasting new things. But I was really bad at pastry. I don't know how they hired me. I like literally had to make a tart as an example. And I was like watching what they were doing and like totally bullshitting my way along. And I don't know how I got hired. They must have been really desperate, but I didn't know what I was doing. And I definitely, definitely fucked some things. So yeah.
Anjali Lewis (12:23)
like everything's by feel and you know, it's so precise. And I am such, I'm not good at following recipes. I'm not good at following rules, you know? So for me, it's like watching something on television, you know, somebody making this amazing whatever. And I get the gist of it. Like, okay, I got it. And then you go off and you kind of do it yourself. And you know, you tweak here and you add a little bit more there, a little less there.
Lauren Alvarez (12:32)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (12:51)
And that's the way I really like to cook, but that does not work when it comes to the world of baking.
Lauren Alvarez (12:57)
No, I've tried it. It's bad. It's really bad. I'm better at baking now than I was back then, for sure. But like still try to swap things out. Or I'm like, how many eggs do I really need? I don't have enough, but I bet I could make it work. And it's like, no, it doesn't, it doesn't work that way. You will have, you know, chalky, nasty flour too much. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, with such a passion for food, I mean, how did you end up in fashion? Because that was really the, the entrance of your
Anjali Lewis (12:59)
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
science.
Lauren Alvarez (13:26)
you know, you were passionate. Did you consider going to culinary? Was that something that you went down that path and changed your mind or was it just a hobby that you wanted to keep as much?
Anjali Lewis (13:36)
I mean, I think that passion and food, you get to have a passion and you get to do it when you want to do it. And work is survival. And so I didn't have the luxury or the opportunity to have these decisions in front of me. It's like, what would you like to do? I need to get a job. So the job in fashion was
Lauren Alvarez (13:45)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (14:05)
you know, I was, I felt so lucky to be able to find, you know, that first job and be a part of something that one was super exciting, two, I really, really liked the people, you know, and three, they paid me, which I don't know, I can't confirm if I would have gotten paid cooking. So my career, you know, the career that I have and the career that I've
Lauren Alvarez (14:22)
Yeah, we love that. Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (14:34)
built was built out of necessity and built out of need, you know, and survival. And the food part of it is the fun, you know, and I have so many friends ask me, you know, like, oh, when are you going to write a cookbook or when are you going to, you know, turn this into your livelihood?
Lauren Alvarez (14:39)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (14:55)
One, I don't know how to write a cookbook and I don't know if I ever will. Like it's a great idea and there are moments that I was like, oh, I'll put a few recipes together for Christmas gift, it's not gonna happen. But then, two, I don't know if I would enjoy it as much if it became a job.
Lauren Alvarez (15:13)
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Anjali Lewis (15:15)
You know, because if you think about cooking as a career, you know, and my brother is a chef, you know, and he loves it, but he loves it because he's able to take his amazing set of skills and turn it into a paycheck. But it's very repetitious, you know?
Lauren Alvarez (15:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, not to mention the hours, the environment. I mean, it's pretty grueling, just like the intensity and the heat in the kitchen. I mean, I remember my dad in the summertime would just come home and he's like just drenched in sweat and then you get the stink of the food of whatever you're cooking and smell like oil or anything. And he's like, this is not glamorous at all. You know, yeah.
Anjali Lewis (15:38)
Yeah!
I know, and you know, the brothers lower back and knees and like all of, you know, the wear and tear on your body. It's a lot. And, you know, not to mention, you know, a restaurant chef, like your job is to make that one dish exactly the same every time. That's your job. There's no other job.
Lauren Alvarez (16:15)
Exactly. There's no iteration. There's no vibes of like, oh, maybe I'll change it up a little bit today. It's like, if you do that, somebody could have an allergic reaction or just a bad time.
Anjali Lewis (16:28)
Exactly. You know, whereas sitting around my dining table and you know, I don't know, that dish you came over for last week was perfectly spiced and the next time that was real spicy and I was like, yeah, I tried different pepper.
Lauren Alvarez (16:42)
I guess Spice Roulette, that's perfect. And I think it's so interesting too, because I really appreciate, there was definitely this movement of like side hustle culture and like the girl boss movement. Everyone was like, everything has to be monetized. And I think that there's something to be said about something that you just truly take pleasure in, that you're not trying to monetize. It doesn't have to be your career. It's not your paycheck. It's not your livelihood.
taking the pressure off of that. It's like why so many musicians, their first album is incredible and the followup, the sophomore album is the hardest one because it's like, everyone has an expectation of you when you start to do something and you make money from it or you gain success from it or recognition. So I like that you're just enjoying this because it's something that's a pleasure. And it's also a good, counterbalance to the intensity, shall we say, of the fashion industry, of that community. It-
seems very glamorous from the outside, perhaps like being a chef. But then when you get into the inside, it's a lot of fucking work. It's not a joke. Yeah, so I mean, early days, was that first role, was that at Donna Karan, DKNY?
Anjali Lewis (17:49)
Yeah, that first role was Donna Karen, or Donna Karen International, so Donna Karen and DKNY I was the assistant to the president of Donna Karen Collection Men's. And it was fantastic, you know, because I mean, I'd done administrative work before, so I knew that I could do it, you know, at least do the job, the task that was put in front of me.
Lauren Alvarez (18:11)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (18:14)
But I got to learn so much about this industry that what we as civilians know about it is what lands on a selling floor. it was great because she's super smart and kind of a ball breaker, ball buster.
Lauren Alvarez (18:35)
I'm gonna go.
Anjali Lewis (18:36)
amazing characters at Donna Karen at the time. And I'm lucky enough to still be, to remain friends with so many of them. Like it's almost as if you can't hit us, throw a rock without hitting someone. I worked at Donna Karen in the nineties. So amazing, amazing bootcamp. I loved it. And I was lucky enough there to have, you know, mentors and bosses in my life there who,
Lauren Alvarez (18:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Anjali Lewis (19:04)
saw something in me that I often didn't see in myself and pushed me along so that I could realize a career. And that is where I began to focus on, you know, the marketing and communications area of fashion.
Lauren Alvarez (19:08)
Mm.
Yeah.
What do you think specifically, like when you think about those mentors, you know, and who's maybe made the most influence in your life? Is there a moment that stands out to you that you're like someone said, hey, you know, like you have this thing or hey, you know, this is your moment? Or was it just kind of the general theme of being trusted? I know that goes a really long way, especially early in your career.
Anjali Lewis (19:43)
I think both, but there was one conversation. I know it was with Trey Laird, who is a creative director, but, and he was my boss, he was my second boss at Donna Karen, and I'd worked for him for a couple of years, and he sat me down and he said, what do you wanna do? And he ran the creative services department and of Donna Karen, it was in-house. And I said, what do you mean? He says, well, I guess,
Lauren Alvarez (19:51)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (20:10)
this is creative services, like, you know, there's production, there is, you know, the art department, there's marketing, you know, what do you like? And I said, I think I really like the marketing part, you know, I like marketing. He's like, great, let's figure this out, you know, and really kind of put me on that path. And that I realized.
is really, really special and it doesn't happen all the time. And people don't stop and ask the question or see someone and say, hey, you've been doing what you're doing for a little bit now. And we can have a conversation about what you ultimately want. And whether you're ready at that time of conversation to move forward or not, there was a
Lauren Alvarez (20:53)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (20:58)
wonderful and collaborative conversation of how to get there. And that I will always be very, very thankful for that.
Lauren Alvarez (21:06)
I mean, that's incredible too, that someone saw in you that you were capable of more than what you were doing in that moment, right? And I think that sometimes we don't see that because it's hard to hold the mirror up sometimes when we're working so hard. I mean, you said that this job at first was a paycheck. I mean, you were like, they're gonna pay me, great. Okay, perfect, check, let's do it. And I think that even coming from, I call it like scarcity mindset of like, okay, well, I don't really have any.
choice, but to do well at this. And that was how I entered my career because I didn't have a plan B. I didn't have the option of like going home. I didn't have that kind of backup. And so it becomes sort of like you're grinding and you are grinding maybe for you, but other people see that and they're like, wow, such investment in the company, such a high performer. We need to make sure that we keep her. That could be a great thing too. It is a good motivator.
Anjali Lewis (21:53)
Yeah.
It's so true and that was probably my don't fuck this up moment. You know, of okay, like people see something in me and people, you know, respect, support, and want to support me and I don't want to let anybody down, you know, and I don't want to let myself down and I'm not going to fuck this up, you know. So I worked my ass off.
Lauren Alvarez (22:03)
Yeah.
Yeah, hell yeah. And I think that like when you're working that hard and people recognize you, it feels so good. It's like we, I'm being seen, I'm being recognized for what I'm doing. Like what you're putting in is what you're getting out and you start to see that exchange of your own energy and your own kind of motivation. So you moved up in the marketing and communication side. I mean, you were at Donna Karen for what? Almost 11 years?
So over a decade, you grew significantly in your role. Did you have the opportunity to turn that around and to mentor other people? Did that moment come back up for you? Were you able to reciprocate that into more junior talent that you worked with?
Anjali Lewis (23:01)
Definitely, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing about, you know, and I wish that I could say that this is, this happens in so many places, but I don't know. But I do know that where I was at Donna Cara and subsequently in the other companies that I've been in,
both junior as well as senior members of the team, we've all stayed in touch and we've all continued to mentor each other and be there for each other. And I think that to me, like outside from all of the things we got to do, and we got to do some of the wildest things, it's the people, it's the people that.
Lauren Alvarez (23:45)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (23:45)
are so fantastic, those that support you, those that you support, those that are older and are natural mentors, those that are younger and you are happy to be a mentee as well because you're getting from them too. I think that is brilliant. And the long answer is yes, yes.
Lauren Alvarez (23:57)
Yes.
Yeah, I love that. And I think also, thinking about when we were chatting about what we wanted to even dive into today, that word mentorship came up. And I think it thematically tends to come up on this show, how we get mentored, how we approach mentorship, and how we seek out mentors. And I don't think that has to be when you're so junior in your career. It can be at all of these moments that we're pivoting, or we're changing, or we're maybe having some self-doubt. The mentorship, or
personal board of directors, you know, that we seek out in our life. Like who are those people? Who's like your, who's your hype crew? And I think knowing like mentorship can kind of take on many shapes in that way, but finding people who inspire you, who can bolster you, um, that's the real stuff. And I think that's what it comes from. But I do really despise when people think mentorship is only a one way street, or it's only when you're really junior that you need mentors. Like I couldn't disagree with that more. What's your, what's your take on it?
Anjali Lewis (25:04)
absolutely agree with you. I think that you are never too old or too young to be mentored. And, you know, for me personally, now I seek out mentors in so many places. You know, the world that I work in is changing so quickly, right? The digital space and platforms and I mean, all the all. And, you know, I am not a spring chicken, but I want to believe that I still think like a spring chicken.
Lauren Alvarez (25:15)
Yeah.
Yes.
Anjali Lewis (25:34)
Um, and, and the only way to do that is to, it's not about remaining current, but it's about remaining curious and knowing where maybe your blind spots are and seeking out, um, those individuals that, you know, are doing really well or opening to having a conversation and kind of talking it through. And that, that I think to me is incredibly important, you know, and I wouldn't
Lauren Alvarez (25:34)
I'm sorry.
Anjali Lewis (25:59)
be able to do what I do today if I didn't have this collective of humans that I have met and maybe those that I haven't even met yet who are going to help me understand and work through some of the challenges that we face and just getting tasks done. And I hope that I'm not for them as well, whether it's being a hype man or being
Lauren Alvarez (26:10)
Yes.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (26:29)
um you know
helping solve a problem that this non-spring chicken may have some insight into.
Lauren Alvarez (26:43)
Well, and I also think, isn't it such a pleasure when we're able to dig into our experiences and we're able to say, wait, I actually encountered this. And I find that there's such a delicate way of presenting that because I've certainly been in positions of mentorship or even directly managing people and knowing that I've been faced with the same problem. But when you say to someone, oh, I've done exactly that, that happened to me and here's what happened, here's how I did it, like, it's not going to land. It's about finding a way to communicate.
And sometimes you have to let people fuck it up. You've got to let them take it a little bit too far. And then you're like, okay, it's not surgery. Nine times out of 10, it's not going to break everything. And so if it's going to get just like a little bit messy and we can kind of dig through the rubble and figure out what went wrong eventually, cool. But also different people have different ways of getting there. And like, I use the example of like, if you take an Uber to get there and I'm on a...
you know, well, I wouldn't get there on a skateboard because I don't know how to do that. But if I was on a scooter, let's say, a really chic scooter, and we took different routes to get there, but we arrived at dinner on time looking good, that's what matters. Like, get there how you get there. And then if I can learn something from the people who I'm mentoring, which I often do, or somebody I'm coaching, it's not because my way is wrong or their way is better, but it's also like just having that perspective. Like, who wants homogeny? It's so fucking boring.
Anjali Lewis (28:02)
Absolutely, it's so true. And it's really, I'm so glad that you said that there's not one way to do something. And I think that we often fall into that trap, you know, like, well, I don't know how to do that because I've never done that before, or there's a right way and I don't know what it is. But really it's about like, how are you gonna solve that problem, right? And sure, there are, you know,
Lauren Alvarez (28:10)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (28:30)
elements to what you have to do that may have very finite ways to do it and that plugs into how you're making it happen. But ultimately, you know, you're given a task, you're given a goal, an objective, and you have a place to start and you know that you've got to end up at the end and it's got to look like, you know, what it is that it's supposed to look like. And how you get there is the journey.
Lauren Alvarez (28:58)
Mm-hmm.
Anjali Lewis (28:58)
Um, you know, but as long as you get there without too much bruising, I think it's okay.
Lauren Alvarez (29:05)
I totally agree. And I think it's also exciting to see all the different ways you can get there. And as a leader, if you're running your own thing, you're also kind of, you don't want to be so impermeable that we're so stuck in our ways. That's how you become not a spring chicken. That's how you become a dinosaur in the industry that is not open to change, that's not open to evolution. And I think that staying.
current has nothing to do with age and everything to do with, you know, are you inspired by people around you? You know, are you able to share from your own experiences, but also learn from other people's experiences? It should be so reciprocal. What advice would you give to somebody who wants to improve like their mentorship footprint, their ability to, you know, be there to help other people grow in their career?
Anjali Lewis (29:50)
Well, first, be there. I think that's a big one. Show up. Showing up is huge. Listening, that is probably number one. And one of the great sayings that someone, one of my mentors shared with me a long time ago was, she said, behind every complaint is a request.
Lauren Alvarez (29:52)
Yeah. Show up. Ha ha ha.
Mm.
Wow, you see that one absorbing, I'm just taking it in. It is.
Anjali Lewis (30:24)
It's pretty massive, right? And I try really hard to listen to complaints or events with a sharper ear because there might be a request in there and that person that is complaining may not even know what that request is and the opportunity to kind of dig in a little bit, especially when they're ready, to kind of.
Lauren Alvarez (30:50)
Yeah. Yes.
Anjali Lewis (30:50)
cut the shit and let's talk about it, you know, because we can't just complain. We have to, you know, complaining is great because it bubbles up problems potentially, you know, or red flags, but you kind of want to solve them.
Lauren Alvarez (31:02)
Yeah.
Yes, yes. And yeah.
Anjali Lewis (31:08)
You know, it can't just be complaining for complaining sake.
Lauren Alvarez (31:11)
Yeah, you can't just be like, oh cool, thanks for the complaints. Yeah. Like, you know, and it's also like, you can't just complain without having some sort of solution. Like, I like when people can come to me and vent. I mean, I work in the people space. I'm a coach. Like, I inevitably hear all of it. But when someone can come and, like, they're pissed off, but they still have, like, a solution in mind. Like, I'm always just action oriented. It's like, yes, let's vent it out. Like, tell me all the shit that's bothering you. But like, what's your plan to?
Anjali Lewis (31:16)
Bye now.
Lauren Alvarez (31:41)
to get out of it, you know? And it can't just be, let's fire this person, because that's not the solve. Sometimes it is, but that's not the only step needed to get there. Like if we do have to fire somebody, I need a 10 step, you know, to get there. Not just for compliance reasons, but like have we explored all the opportunities?
Anjali Lewis (31:47)
Totally.
Lauren, sometimes you just want to fire somebody.
Lauren Alvarez (32:01)
It's real, you're right. You mentioned though something that really stood out is like when someone says like cut the shit, right? Like those are big moments in our career. Do you have one that stands out to you? I can think of like several in my experience. I'm like how many times have people said that to me? Many, but what was like a big cut the shit moment for you that like really switched your thinking? Cause we, you know, when, you know, Trey really talked to you about what you wanted to be, what you wanted to do, what made you feel seen. That was someone saying like, we see all these things.
But then you started doing things and someone had to check you what happened.
Anjali Lewis (32:33)
Well, actually the biggest moment for me when that happened was me saying that I couldn't do something. And it was through a recruiter at Time Inc. and her name is Jeannine Maselli. So Jeannine, if you're out there, I still think about you. I was at Donna Karen and approaching my 11th year.
And I was approached by Time Inc to talk to them about becoming the associate publisher of marketing at InStyle. And this was like 2004. So InStyle was like the shit. And it was like, cool. And I'm always that person that says, don't ever turn down a conversation or an interview because even though you're not looking, people could surprise you.
Lauren Alvarez (33:06)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (33:21)
Or you could learn that where you are is the best place you should be. It's sort of like dating. And I sent over my resume, which is all fashion all the time. And she, we had a conversation and I was like, I don't think this is for me. I don't know anything about publishing. I don't know how to do this.
Lauren Alvarez (33:21)
Yes.
I love that. Yeah.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (33:49)
and she sent over a job description, you know, and like I read it, but like I wasn't seeing it, you know, because that's not what I did. And I said no, and then she called me and she said, you know, she didn't say cut the shit because she's a lady. But some people. Yes. But some people.
Lauren Alvarez (33:56)
Yeah.
I'm a lady and I say it all the time. Yeah. But hey, Janine, if you're out there, respect. Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (34:18)
But something along those lines of like, hey, let's look at this. Let's look at these two job descriptions, like this job description of this position and your resume side by side and let's see where the translatable skills are. And she literally broke it down for me. This is a woman who wasn't going to take no for an answer and she wasn't going to allow me to find the no.
Lauren Alvarez (34:41)
May we all have more Jenine's in our lives.
Anjali Lewis (34:42)
So we do need more Janine's in our life. And I ended up going to in style. It was really hard. And I think part of it, part of my resistance was yes, fear of not being able to perform and not being able to do the job. The other was, well, also fear. Like what if I'm successful here because this is the only place I can be successful?
You know, so that that's where the imposter syndrome comes in. It's like, wait a minute. If I go somewhere else, then I'm going to have to start all over again. You know, my network is not going to be the same. I'm going to have to prove myself. I'm going to have to tap dance. I'm going to have to explain myself. And I don't even know if I can explain myself, you know. So it was all of those things. But, you know, the pivot to another industry, you know, even though they're all adjacent, is real until.
you do the Janine Misali approach, which is really breaking it down, you know, and doing something as simple as, you know, in fashion, you know, you've got the design team and you've got the sales team and you've got the business teams, you've got the marketing teams. And then in publishing, you have, you know, the editorial team and you've got the production team and you, you know, so they're just called something different, but they behave very similarly.
Lauren Alvarez (36:01)
Yes, yes. yeah, but you needed someone to draw the lines for you and just to say, hello, this is literally what you're doing. It's just in a different environment. I mean, fried chicken can be made in many different ways, right? Yeah, hard slap. And you know, it's like, it could be Thai fried chicken, it could be Southern fried chicken, it could be this, but it's all chicken. Like we're frying a chicken. Yes, just a little bit of different seasoning.
Anjali Lewis (36:15)
It's true. I need a hard slap.
It's all chicken. Exactly. Very good analogy.
Lauren Alvarez (36:33)
Well, I mean, I also love fried chicken, so it was easy to think of. I mean, talk to me a little bit about, I mean, in the publishing world, I mean, we saw Pitchwork Bite the Dust just, you know, in the last week and, you know, being absorbed by GQ. So much is changing in the publishing landscape, but you really, you know, made your home there for, you know, a number of years. Obviously, the imposter syndrome wore off, thank goodness. But, you know, coming up in that industry during the time that you were there and really started to see the shift toward digital.
What was sort of your way of staying, again, current, staying on top of it, you know, continuing to get promoted? You were obviously not just saying, well, print forever, you know, or I'm out. So how did you kind of stay immersed in that, or were you forced to really, just because everything was changing and everyone else was changing?
Anjali Lewis (37:20)
both, you know, like the times are gonna force you to change, you know, and you can either do it graciously or you, you know, are going to be left behind. And, you know, for me, you know, when I was at Vanity Fair and the digital shift was happening, you know, all these new apps, all social media, you know, our websites, it was necessary for us to hire really
smart and plugged in people who could help us understand it. And obviously, if I wasn't interested in understanding or applying, and again, it was like, how do you apply what it is you want to do to a platform or to a social network that is going to help amplify what it is that you're going to do?
Lauren Alvarez (38:00)
Yeah.
Yes.
Anjali Lewis (38:16)
It made us just get smarter and better about our ideas, to be honest, because my role in publishing was literally running an internal agency. We worked with our sales partners and publisher to generate ideas that were very brand correct for the magazine that we were working on. That.
Lauren Alvarez (38:19)
Yeah.
Mm.
Anjali Lewis (38:42)
advertisers could come and lean against and be a part of. And whether that be, you know, a custom unit that we're shooting for in book, or a, you know, digital campaign that we were creating for our website or an event, which then had, you know, social amplification around it. It just made us think
And it's not 360, it's more of like an octopus. It's like, you know, this like massive, huge body in the middle. That's the idea. And like, what are all the tentacles that go out that's going to make this moment, you know, whether that moment is, you know, a month, two weeks, or even three hours, amplify, big or better. And so it's the willingness to figure it out.
Lauren Alvarez (39:15)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (39:34)
to know that you can't do it all. So there are people out there, young, old, otherwise, that know it better, bring them in. Whether you get to hire them full-time or you get to rent their brains for a while and bring them on as consultants, it's super important.
Lauren Alvarez (39:50)
Yeah.
Definitely. I mean, going from, you know, you were at Vanity Fair, you had this, you know, kind of storied, you know, arc, you know, that you continue to climb and grow in your successes there. And then you got pulled back to fashion. How did that happen? I mean, I saw that you made the transition over. And if I'm not mistaken, you were hired into Alexander Wang during a really pivotal time where they had lost a lot of the executive team.
Anjali Lewis (40:19)
So there was a little bit of a couple of years in there from leaving Vanity Fair and going in house, which is when I created the Curious Bird. And I had the best time at Vanity Fair I probably will say that it was like the best job I ever had because it was just so much fun. And at a certain point, you know, and you touched on it, the magazine world or the publishing world was changing.
so much. And I'd done it for almost 10 years at VF and two years before that at Ed in Style. And I didn't know what I wanted to do next, but I knew how I wanted to feel. I wanted to feel less stressed out. We were stressed out all the time. It just felt like.
you know, the money, grabbing the business and monetizing constantly and, you know, finding the next big deal and making sure that the quotas were met in terms of, you know, both print and digital revenue was so intense. It was so intense that I wasn't having a good time anymore. Like there was no room for creativity and there's no room for thinking. There wasn't room to like, you know, sit and have a glass of wine with someone
Lauren Alvarez (41:27)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (41:36)
who could actually inspire you to do something great at the brand. So I made the decision to step away and it was a really hard one, but I made the decision to step away and I thought, you know, I'm gonna take a beat and I'm going to consult. And you know, which is really fancy of saying freelance. And I created an LLC, you know, so yes, I am a founder
Lauren Alvarez (41:40)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (42:03)
I own a company, but really what it is, it's an LLC. What that is me, myself and I, and I get to consult with a bunch of different brands and people who are so amazing and inspiring. So when I left VF, I had a couple of years where I did that. And one of, actually my old mentors from Donna Karan,
went over to Alexander Wang and she called me and asked if I would be interested in having a conversation with Alex, you know, because there was some shifts in his organization. And she said yes, talked to him, went in as a consultant in marketing and comms and ended up going in-house, I think after like five months or something, six months.
Lauren Alvarez (42:52)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (42:53)
and was there for three years. And it was great, you know, and that was actually really interesting because, you know, I'd left fashion in 2004, and then I went back in 2017. And that spread, I was sure, things were going to be so different.
Lauren Alvarez (42:56)
Mm-hmm.
Anjali Lewis (43:15)
Um, what's interesting is like, yes, of course things are different because you're not, you're no longer running 40 pages of advertising in Vogue in the month of September. Now, you know, you're running amazing, um, digital campaigns and, and your Instagram is like the Bible, even though it's like so little, um, you know, and storytelling there has to be great. Um, and the number of assets that needed to, you know, be created every season. And, you know, like those things, um, were different.
Lauren Alvarez (43:24)
Yeah.
Hehehehehehe
Anjali Lewis (43:45)
But what wasn't different was how you approach a collection or how you approach shows, you know, and what was wonderful was sitting in the first show meeting and the same people that I worked with when I was at Donna Caron, like walk into the room and like the lighting people and the sound people. And it was like, oh my God, it's like an old home week. Absolutely.
Lauren Alvarez (44:04)
Get the crew back together, yeah. Ha ha ha.
Anjali Lewis (44:07)
So it was great and I really like Alex and we got on really well and got to spend time really hearing and understanding what his vision of his company and what he wanted to be, what it was and what he wanted to be and be a part of this moment where Alex definitely embraced his Chinese American roots and went for it and it was great.
Lauren Alvarez (44:35)
Yeah, yeah. I think it's really remarkable too to, you know, you said like going out on your own and you're consulting fancy way of saying, you know, it's you yourself and I, I mean, you also know your coworkers pretty well at that point. You probably got to know what you really wanted to do, what you didn't wanna do. And I've been in that position too, where I was consulting and then I went back in house and it does have a way of kind of...
Anjali Lewis (44:48)
I'm sorry.
Lauren Alvarez (44:58)
showing you like who you really are and how you work best. And it really made me a better, you know, full-time employee when I was in-house and then has made me really grateful to be back to consulting now that I'm not. And it's one of those things where you sort of embrace that and you're like, oh yeah, like I get to work in my own way.
actually makes you play well with others even better than I did before. At least that was my experience. And it sounds like for you going in that you had this sort of refreshed perspective and really came in at such an exciting time for the brand. And you were in a C-suite role. So you were able to see so much of what was happening from the marketing perspective. Why did you decide to leave? I mean, I think that would be a dream job for most and you chose to depart. Talk to me about that decision.
Anjali Lewis (45:46)
Yeah.
I actually, so another person in my life who's been in my life for a very long time, Emily Davis, she became the CMO of Airmail, which is Graydon Carter's online publication. And she and I were at a cocktail party and she asked how I was doing, you know, we were chatting blah, and I was like, yeah, you know, I don't know, maybe.
maybe I wanna go back to consulting, maybe I'm kinda done. Things are getting to a different place at Alex and he's got a real group around him now and we've built up the executive team again. Maybe it's time. And then a couple of days later she called and she said, are you really serious about thinking about going back to consulting? And I was like, yeah, I'm thinking about it. It's not like right here, but I'm thinking about it.
Lauren Alvarez (46:37)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (46:37)
And she said, well, what if you consulted with us?
Lauren Alvarez (46:39)
Okay.
Anjali Lewis (46:40)
So that was really intriguing. And then she and I had a conversation. I went in to meet with Graydon and his co-founder, Alessandra, and the rest of the team. And that actually gave me the confidence to say, OK, you know what? I'm going to go back and do this. And I was so excited to go back and work with Graydon and the team because I love working with them at BF. And there's some familiarity there.
Lauren Alvarez (47:04)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (47:07)
I was such a fan of what he was doing. So I sat down with Alex and shared with him that this is what I wanted to do, so I was resigning. And then we kind of talked it through and I ended up resigning as a full-time person, but keeping Alex Wang on as
um, a client for another, I think nine months after I left. Alexander Wang and I had Airmail and then I started working with, um, a sustainable fashion company, um, called Another Tomorrow. Um, so it all sort of like came together. Strangely, they were all the company started with A. Um, but it all came together and it, and it gave me the opportunity to.
Lauren Alvarez (47:50)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (47:58)
It wasn't that I stopped learning, but it allowed me to be in a lot of places that being in-house didn't allow me, if that makes sense.
Lauren Alvarez (48:09)
Yes.
It does make sense. And I think it's also when you have worked across so many different mediums and a variety of environments, you really, you know, know what you can bring to each of those and it's hard to go back to being kind of single serving. When you're in this one environment, it can feel less exciting. And I think that there's, you know, an opportunity when you're consulting to kind of bring some of that magic or you're inspired by something that was said in a Airmill meeting and you bring it to another tomorrow and you say, okay, like, you know, another one of my clients is doing
X, Y, Z, and what if we position this way? And I think it really feeds itself. I often tell people who I'm coaching as well that if they have the opportunity to consult, it will bolster you from a skillset standpoint, you'll just do so much more. Like you're one year of work versus if you're one year in-house somewhere, it's gonna look very different. But if you have a work ethic, if you have that kind of grind in you, then you're going to be compelled to continue on and you're gonna be compelled to do more.
I don't think consulting is for people who want chill vibes. That is the biggest misconception that I've experienced is people being like, oh my God, that's so cool. You're consulting. It must be so chill. I'm like, hi, have we met? I don't have any chill anyways. And then you add the consulting on top of that. It's like, I don't have the luxury of PTO. I don't have the luxury of this. So I know that I'm planning out how I'm going to spend my time.
Anjali Lewis (49:22)
E-Row-Chow.
Lauren Alvarez (49:34)
And, oh yeah, I still have to like tend to these other four clients. So here's a question for you. When do you say no? Because I think that that's something I really had to learn about myself and it took me time. So in the consulting world, when do you politely decline? When do you say no? And also maybe weaving into that advice for other people who have trouble with that boundary, cause it's a tough one.
Anjali Lewis (49:58)
Well, it is a tough one and I wish you'd bring somebody else on to have that conversation because I'm still figuring out. So I think it's a lot easier to say no at the beginning, right? And actually not work with a client that you're not feeling comfortable with. That's the first no. But for me, because I've never worked in agency before, I've always been in-house. And in-house is always full on.
Lauren Alvarez (50:05)
I'll work on it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (50:27)
But how I consult is that I'm full on. It's as if I have multiple families. Multiple full on families, it's big love. And I like it that way. And it supercharges me. It also exhausts me because you can imagine time is not something that we can make more of.
Lauren Alvarez (50:34)
Mm-hmm.
Anjali Lewis (50:52)
I mean, I don't say no a lot and I probably should say no more. But right now, where I am in my career, I'm interested in saying yes more often than I say no, because the challenges or the tasks that are put in front of me just put more tools into my toolbox. And that's what I'm interested in.
Lauren Alvarez (51:15)
Yes, I love that. Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (51:19)
You know, being a consultant and remaining to be a consultant, remaining a consultant is more, it's not about the freedom, it's more about the learning. And I want the next decade of my working life to be different than the last decade of my working life. Because my interests have changed, I want to learn more, I want to do more, I want to be a part of conversations that maybe I wasn't a part of before.
I want skills that I didn't have before. I mean, like I'm in the process right now of opening Aramel's first New York store and I've never opened a store before, but guess what? I'm gonna learn or I'm learning.
Lauren Alvarez (52:02)
Yeah.
And you're getting paid to do it. I mean, why not get paid to learn if you can? Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (52:04)
And I'm going to do it. Yeah, so that's a gift. And for me, it's like, yes, I will lead this charge. And I will figure it out. And there are moments where I want to pull my hair up, because there are things that I don't know how to do. And it's super frustrating, because I am a control freak. But it's such a cliche. But it's just going to make me stronger.
Lauren Alvarez (52:29)
I love that. I mean, also like, hell yes to just taking on new things because I think it's so easy for some to get really comfortable. I suppose the name the curious bird now we're learning the curiosity part, right? Is like, you're like, I bet I could do that. And you know, perhaps it's a little bit of Janine in your ear being like, you've already done this. You just haven't done it in this arena. But I do really think that that's special and just, you know, reminding, you know, our listeners too, if you're feeling like you
Anjali Lewis (52:40)
Thank you.
Lauren Alvarez (52:56)
Like you want to take on something new and you're scared that you haven't done it before. Anjali just told you just, just do it. Just do the thing. Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (53:03)
I know and they do you know and as we're wrapping up like I do hear you know young Professionals like say to me Well, I have boundaries like I'm gonna work nine to five like I'm not going to do anything after five That's work related or you know, I'm not going to work on weekends You know like my mental health and my downtime is incredibly important to me. I Think all of those things are valid but I hope
You know, like there's so many things that we didn't learn from the pandemic. We went back and like, you know, Busted up all the, all the good thought, all the good vibes. But what I believe, at least for myself, that we can hold on to is our ability to be more fluid in terms of how we work and how we approach it and how we think about work as a construct versus our private life versus, you know, our personal, like our, um,
Lauren Alvarez (53:33)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (53:58)
you know, love life, whatever. And, you know.
It's the hardest thing for me to say I'm off now because our devices are always with us. But I think that with trust, with coworkers and with support from your bosses, with the ability to oftentimes live wherever we want, the fluidity and the elasticity of how we approach everything that we do.
Lauren Alvarez (54:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Anjali Lewis (54:30)
has changed and I think that's exciting. And I'm not quite sure if that answers the question of, you know, where are boundaries? I think it's boundless and we have to figure out again, like what makes us happy? And perhaps if we draw those boundaries before we figure out what makes us happy, we'll never get those boundaries to expand, if that makes sense.
Lauren Alvarez (54:43)
Yeah.
It makes so much sense. I mean, I smiled because it resonates so much with me, you know, of just figuring out like, I'm happy when I'm working. I'm happy when I'm busy. I like that. And busy can mean different things, but I received a lot of flak from certain people for wanting to get back to work shortly after I had a child. I was ready. I knew I was ready. And I started working and I felt really great because I also want to be able to tell my kid that.
you know, when they're older, like, yeah, I love working. I also love you. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. You know, both can be true. And I think that it's also like trusting ourselves that like we can take on the big things, we can do the big stuff. And if you wanna do the big stuff, that's great. And then if you wanna take a couple of weeks off, that's great too. But figuring out, like you said, what makes us feel happiest is something that I think a lot of folks avoid just for the sake of boundaries. You know, when there was this...
Anjali Lewis (55:26)
Yeah.
Lauren Alvarez (55:47)
great article on therapy speak and how we all overuse it, but especially generationally, I think it's a thing is everyone wants to talk about their boundary and checking in and wait, I'm just going to stop you there because I have a boundary on this. If we can just check in with ourselves on our happiness, that might be the boundary. Does it make me happy?
Anjali Lewis (55:47)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. I agree. It's like, does it make me happy? No.
Lauren Alvarez (56:11)
Yeah, great. It might be time to leave. Exit stage left, you know? Like, yeah, if you're not happy.
Anjali Lewis (56:18)
But in the meantime, you know, it's like, keep showing up. Just show up. Interesting things happen.
Lauren Alvarez (56:26)
I really like that. I know we have just a little bit of time left together and I had just a couple more questions for you, but they're fun ones. I wanted to know, you know, what are some of your favorite brands right now? Who do you feel like is doing business right? You know, you've really been in the business space. You have, you know, you talked about some of your favorite restaurants and foods to eat. Who's doing business right now? And like, what's exciting to you that's happening in that world?
Anjali Lewis (56:49)
My God, that's such a hard question. And it's so funny that I can't even come up with one as you ask me that.
I mean, it's such a cliche. Like I think Nike does a really great job. I think they continue to reinvent themselves in their own way and stay incredibly relevant. I know that they get dinged a lot because the bigger you are, the more dinged you get. I think that's hard being sort of on top.
Lauren Alvarez (57:08)
Yes.
Yes.
Anjali Lewis (57:21)
I always think that Warby Parker does a really fantastic job and I'm probably biased because, you know, I have a dear friend that's there and I watch her work her magic, but their creative is always super fun. I think that for me, I just really appreciate brands,
Lauren Alvarez (57:36)
Yeah.
Anjali Lewis (57:42)
those that are building worlds outside of their core.
Lauren Alvarez (57:48)
Yes.
Yeah. And it's so much about that. It's so much about like, what we see, you know, we're in such a visual stimulation society, right? Like it's Instagram or it's TikTok or it's, you know, a mural or something like wild that we're seeing. I mean, we've, you know, we've all seen it. And so it's like, instead of aspiring to be like that giant thing, how do you just stay true to your company as the times shift? And I think that that's hard to do. So the ones that do it, you're right. They totally stand out. I was actually thinking as you were saying, Nike, I was like, oh yeah. And Calvin Klein with like Jeremy Allen White, like that took over the
Anjali Lewis (57:49)
You know.
Yeah.
Lauren Alvarez (58:19)
you know, probably most people's mind in America and onward but also that huge billboard in Soho like Since when is out of home so significant? Well, all of a sudden it is again Yeah
Anjali Lewis (58:26)
Yeah.
It's so true. And I mean, you know, the super duper luxury brand that, you know, always makes me smile is Hermes. Like I think Hermes has, you know, always and forever done things in a way that, you know, makes you annoyed that you can't have an orange box whenever you want. But I love that, you know, their core business is incredibly expensive shit, but.
they will make you smile because they decided to build out a diner or a kiosk or whatever it is and pop up in the strangest ways. And I think that is, I love that. I love that because I might not be able to participate from a product standpoint, but I can participate from an appreciation standpoint. And I think that's great.
Lauren Alvarez (59:00)
Yes.
I really like that too. I mean, where can people go to learn more about you, the work that you do, where can we direct them?
Anjali Lewis (59:26)
Probably really difficult to do because I am someone who is behind the scenes. So I suppose the companies that I work for are the ones that need to be in the limelight and I'm the person that kind of like lives behind there kind of doing whatever. But like I said, we are opening our first Airmel shop on Hudson Street in New York City.
Lauren Alvarez (59:49)
That's, I love that. I love like the IRL experience of Anjali, the woman of mystery. That's amazing. I mean, I think that's great. And that is so exciting. I do love the like experiential component of that, of like, it's a tangible, you know, thing that you can be in. You can go into that world. It's so rare that we get to do that with brands. So I really like that. Okay, what is one final thought you want to leave our listeners with today?
Anjali Lewis (59:54)
I'll probably be in there shuffling around. I'm really excited about it.
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:19)
No pressure.
Anjali Lewis (1:00:21)
that's so much pressure. You're asking all the hard questions. That's true. That's true. I think going back to feelings, you know, it's like, you may not even if you don't know how you want to feel, know how you're feeling right now.
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:25)
That's the last one. I had to really put you through it.
I love that. I think that's perfect. I'm gonna actually carry that one around with me for the rest of the week. It's like really what I needed. Anjali, thank you so much for joining me today. It was so wonderful to have you. This has been Don't Fuck This Up, the podcast answering the ultimate question, how the fuck did you land that cool job? I'm your host, Lauren Alvarez, and we will talk to you next week.
Anjali Lewis (1:00:47)
Thank you.