This week, Lauren sits down with Karen Karch, the Founder, Creative Director, Designer, and Owner of Karen Karch Jewelry. Karen is all about defying convention: from being the subject of her own internship at Parsons and pioneering the “Dangerous Jewelry” movement, to her innovative approach to fine jewelry design and the evolution of her iconic bridal line.
We discuss the importance of learning the hard way, the challenge of setting trends, and the need to create one’s own creative bubble. Karen shares insights on knowing when it’s time for a change: whether it’s a neighborhood, a killer rebrand or shifting from brick-and-mortar to online retail.
“I had a strong sense of conviction that I was just doing it, and nothing was going to stop me.” - Karen Karch
Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez
Follow Karen Karch on IG: @KarenKarchNYC
Check out Karen Karch Jewelry: www.karenkarch.com
Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!
This week, Lauren sits down with Karen Karch, the Founder, Creative Director, Designer, and Owner of Karen Karch Jewelry. Karen is all about defying convention: from being the subject of her own internship at Parsons and pioneering the “Dangerous Jewelry” movement, to her innovative approach to fine jewelry design and the evolution of her iconic bridal line.
We discuss the importance of learning the hard way, the challenge of setting trends, and the need to create one’s own creative bubble. Karen shares insights on knowing when it’s time for a change: whether it’s a neighborhood, a killer rebrand or shifting from brick-and-mortar to online retail.
“I had a strong sense of conviction that I was just doing it, and nothing was going to stop me.” - Karen Karch
Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez
Follow Karen Karch on IG: @KarenKarchNYC
Check out Karen Karch Jewelry: www.karenkarch.com
Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!
Karen Karch (00:00)
Thank you, Lauren. I'm so happy to be here.
Lauren Alvarez (00:02)
I'm so excited to have a conversation in this arena because I feel like we've talked about a lot of these things in sort of ad hoc format over the years. But before we get into everything, I mean, how are you doing? You were recently out West in Santa Fe, right?
Karen Karch (00:17)
Yes, I've been out West quite a bit lately and I'm loving it. It's so nice to leave New York and have a different perspective on things.
Lauren Alvarez (00:26)
Yeah, I feel like so much of your design, like you've talked a lot about, you know, kind of your inspiration coming from everywhere. I remember you had a Tokyo collection after you traveled to Tokyo. You've done some really amazing, you know, work inspired by the places that you visit. And one recurring theme often is the Southwest is, you know, that kind of desert environment. And I mean, early days, Karen, before you were in New York, you're from El Paso. Is that right?
Karen Karch (00:53)
Yeah, I grew up in El Paso. We moved there when I was 10.
Lauren Alvarez (00:57)
Okay, so definitely different than New York City.
Karen Karch (01:00)
Yes, definitely different from New York City. I grew up, I was born in upstate. So I kind of have both parts of the country in me because I was born in, you know, until I was 10 living in Syracuse. And then we moved to El Paso, complete shock to the system when I was 10. And then, you know, my more memorable years were in Texas.
Lauren Alvarez (01:05)
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's so formative too. Like I think making a move, my folks also moved when I was 10, you know, from, you know, parochial New England down to like, you know, Georgia outside of Atlanta. And it was like a total shell shock.
Karen Karch (01:32)
Mm.
Lauren Alvarez (01:39)
I mean, I think like having that sensibility too and then being kind of in those new environments does make it easier for you to like connect with other people because you start to understand like all different backgrounds. Are there any kind of significant memories from your time in El Paso that stand out as like that inspired you creatively or that made you want to be a creative, you know, over time or was it just something that you naturally were attracted to?
Karen Karch (01:48)
Mm -hmm.
Um, I think it was something within me my whole life. Um, as long as I can remember, I was always making things, whether it was Shrinky Dinks or Pom Pom little figures or whatever, like drawing, painting, and just putting stuff together. I always, it was always my favorite thing to do. And my mother wasn't an artist, so she was very...
Lauren Alvarez (02:23)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (02:31)
encouraging when she saw that it was something I liked.
Lauren Alvarez (02:35)
That's amazing. And what was like your earliest memory of anything jewelry related? Did that come with school or was that something you were doing kind of on your own as well?
Karen Karch (02:45)
No, actually, when I was in high school, I put together wood beads and sold them at a local boutique. Like, it was in the 80s, so there were massive beads and things that I would assemble as earrings. And I sold them. And for some reason, I never realized this is something I could do for a living. So I did it in high school.
Lauren Alvarez (03:01)
I love that.
Yeah.
That's amazing. And I mean, also having that early retail experience of just like, not just making something. Cause I thought you'd say like, Oh, I made them and I sold them to other students. You're like, no, I went into a boutique and I was like, please sell my wares. I mean, that's so incredible.
Karen Karch (03:17)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, it was great. It was great. I wish I had realized then that this was a career I could pursue. So when I went away to UT Austin, I was liberal arts undetermined because I just wanted to do creative things. And when I was forced to pick a major, I chose advertising and I was horrible at it. So bad.
Lauren Alvarez (03:48)
Mm.
Wait, so you're in advertising, did you do like an internship or did you have a role while you were in school doing it? How did you know you were so bad at it?
Karen Karch (04:01)
No. Well, I know looking back at the things I did, at the time I didn't realize how bad I was at it. I didn't really like it. And then when I finished school, my final semester, I took a jewelry course. And then the light bulb went off and I knew this was the thing.
Lauren Alvarez (04:04)
Oh, yeah.
Mmm.
Karen Karch (04:24)
But I needed to interview for jobs. So I went into these job interviews and just, I didn't want the job. So I was like horrible in my interview on purpose because I really didn't. I know, I know. So, so yeah. So after I discovered that course.
Lauren Alvarez (04:35)
Yeah, nothing like bombing an interview on purpose. I'm sure they love that use of their time.
Karen Karch (04:51)
In jewelry making I went back to El Paso from Austin and I took two courses two semesters at the University in El Paso and I had my best teacher I have ever had so she was amazing. I was so lucky to study with her and I decided this is definitely what I want to pursue
Lauren Alvarez (05:07)
Ugh.
Karen Karch (05:17)
I stayed with my parents briefly, then moved into my own apartment, worked as a cocktail waitress and took this jewelry course. So then when I was there, I applied to go to Parson.
Lauren Alvarez (05:23)
That's incredible.
Oh, so it was not such a linear path, you know, of just like having this moment and deciding, okay, I'm going to do this. It was like, let me make sure I want to do this. Let me figure out a plan. And I think that also really speaks to like, there is a certain thoughtfulness that you have and how you pursue, you know, like the creative process and how you pursue things. And there's also a bit of like, this contradictory style of like, oh, you know, I'm very punk rock attitude. But then also there's this really methodical, really thoughtful part of it. I'm sure that was really helpful.
Karen Karch (05:38)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (05:57)
going into a program like Parsons where it's really intense. I mean, what was that like? Was that like late 90s, mid 90s, and there was like a lot of energy in New York at the time, right? There was a lot of people kind of creating. Talk a little bit about moving to New York in that moment.
Karen Karch (06:12)
Yeah. Well, you're actually making me a little younger. It was the late 80s. So it was 88, 89 that I was in Parsons. So New York was a completely different place. I always felt comfortable here coming from Texas. You would think that I would feel intimidated, but I never did. I always felt like I belonged. So I
Lauren Alvarez (06:17)
Okay.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (06:38)
I was able to start at third year level. I didn't have to take, they took all my credits from UT Austin. And the other students in my course in the jewelry program were pissed off that I got to jump into third year level because they said no one ever does. And that I, they were, they were jealous I didn't have to take the foundation courses.
Lauren Alvarez (06:47)
Amazing.
I love that.
Karen Karch (07:06)
And they said normally most people go in at second year, but I went in at third year and I was very, it was good to be not an old student, but I was a little bit older. So it was good to, I already knew what I wanted to do and I had a strong sense of conviction that I was just doing it. I was naive and I just decided this is what I'm doing and nothing is going to stop me.
Lauren Alvarez (07:19)
Yeah.
I love that. So, I mean, how are you spending your time? I mean, so much of the coursework is time consuming and then you're actually fabricating and creating and casting and doing all of these different things. How did you spend your time outside of that? Was that inspiring you in the city? I mean, it was such a cool time for music in New York. I mean, everything. Where were you living?
Karen Karch (07:52)
Mm -hmm. Oh my gosh. The first year I was living in the YMCA on 34th and 9th. It was total crack. Total crack area. You did not want to go north on 34th Street and 9th Avenue. You just didn't do that.
Lauren Alvarez (08:02)
Glamorous.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (08:14)
And then the second year they opened up a dormitory on 8th Street, which was really fun. So we were really close to Washington Square Park and much, much more in a place where you could experience New York in a better way.
Lauren Alvarez (08:24)
Oh, that's great.
Karen Karch (08:31)
so I worked my ass off, actually. I was really involved in all the projects I did. I did go out, I did experience music, I did things. But for the most part, I was just really focused on school and the projects and starting how I'm going to start my business.
Lauren Alvarez (08:55)
So you knew you wanted to not just create, but that you wanted to have your own line. It was never like, I want to work for somebody else. It was like, I want to do my own thing. And that was pretty apparent to you early on.
Karen Karch (09:05)
Yeah, well, in my my senior year, we had to do a thesis and we could choose someone to work for. And at that time, Robert Lee Morris in art where was a big thing. And I really admired him. And I thought maybe I want to get an internship there. They weren't interested in me. So I decided that my internship was going to be working for myself. So they
Lauren Alvarez (09:20)
Mm -hmm.
Karen Karch (09:35)
No one ever did that. So I talked them into it. I had to speak to the counselor multiple times and I talked them into it. So my internship was starting my own business.
Lauren Alvarez (09:39)
Okay.
That's amazing. with that, were you getting more love from your peers and classmates, or were they extra pissed off at you at this point?
Karen Karch (09:57)
I don't know. I probably didn't pay that much attention to them. They were mostly nice to me. Yeah, it was a strange group of people who mostly didn't like each other at all. So, you know, I didn't really worry about it.
Lauren Alvarez (10:06)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's incredible. And even before you graduated, if I remember correctly, your work was featured in MTV and starting to get press, starting to be seen. What did that feel like for you, knowing that you were completing your own internship and starting to see maybe just the fingertips of success, just like little bits of it trickling in? And how did that feel for you? And did you let that influence your work?
Karen Karch (10:43)
Um, it definitely felt like success and that I was proving to my, my teacher for my thesis. Um, she was very talented and she was about technique and I was wanting to make a living. So I was all about shortcuts. So I, she gave me a D on my thesis, even though I personally had had.
Lauren Alvarez (11:03)
Hmm.
You're like, I gave myself an A.
Karen Karch (11:13)
I personally had some successes. At that point, I didn't even want to stay in school, but my mom begged me to get that degree. That piece of paper from the school meant something to her. It didn't matter that much to me. So yeah, the jewelry was on MTV. I did a leather jacket with found objects that I cast.
Lauren Alvarez (11:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (11:40)
in silver and broken reflectors that were set in silver settings, pinned them all over a leather biker jacket, and it ended up on one of the musicians from Hall & Oats during the Mardi Gras. And yeah, so we had some...
Lauren Alvarez (11:48)
Mmm.
Whoa, that's not casual at all. That is incredibly cool.
Karen Karch (12:03)
exposure from MTV and I was part of a movement that they coined as dangerous jewelry because my pieces weren't pretty or feminine. You know, they were more statement pieces and it was more street style. So there was a movement that they coined dangerous jewelry and there were articles that appeared in Elle magazine, USA Today.
Lauren Alvarez (12:11)
You
Yeah.
Karen Karch (12:31)
and various other places. It got a lot of attention.
Lauren Alvarez (12:35)
That's really incredible. I had never heard you talk about dangerous jewelry, but I feel like that is very appealing. Even today, it's like, ooh, maybe I need that. So maybe that's your next campaign. But you also really, shortly after school, started popping up another with retailers, right?
Karen Karch (12:39)
Ha ha ha.
You
Right, right. So during my internship, I started going to stores in New York and in Los Angeles to try to sell my jewelry. And then shortly after I did trade shows, where I started selling the jewelry and got more exposure to stores and more places.
Lauren Alvarez (13:17)
Yeah, I think that what's really interesting too is knowing that the industry kind of has its standards and it can be really old school in a lot of ways. I mean, if anybody's been to the Diamond District, we all know what that feels like. And I feel like there's something really that feels really fresh and revolutionary. And for when I first discovered your line, I think it might have been like.
Karen Karch (13:27)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (13:37)
early to mid 2000s, you know, and you were the first jeweler that I ever saw work with black diamonds, especially in the way that you were setting them, you know, they weren't tiny sprinkles, they were big honkin black diamonds set in rose gold. And you had a very specific aesthetic of like, this stone is set in this metal for this reason. And I think that that's something that really stood out to me initially, like one, I've never seen anything like this at the time. And two, like,
this person has a very particular lens on not just like what the jewelry is gonna look like, because you were doing something different, but even like what colors are complimentary. And it really shows this kind of foundational knowledge of like, yes, you break the rules. But I think one thing that, you know, I remember my, you know, first boss taught me a really long time ago, he was like, you, until you, you know, learn the rules, it's impossible to learn which rules are breaking, you know, and I think that it's like having that foundation, having that education, and the parameters allows you to like,
Karen Karch (14:29)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (14:33)
Fuck em up, right?
Karen Karch (14:35)
Yeah, I totally agree with that. If I hadn't been taught the most painful, hard way to do things, I couldn't have created the shortcuts that I created that actually work really well. So once I learned the, what we would call the traditional way to do things at my bench, I was able to hands on learn ways to undo what I learned.
Lauren Alvarez (14:44)
Yeah.
I mean, there's so much I think about jewelry now, you know, I feel like every month I'm seeing a new line that pops up and it's being pushed to my phone and there's so much change, you know, I think that happens. How does it feel like, I mean, as someone who's been doing this for, you said since the late eighties when you moved to New York to go to Parsons and you've really seen that evolution, what's your perspective on like some of the newer lines coming up and things like that changing in such rapid pace? Is it exciting to you? Is it frustrating? Like, is it both?
Karen Karch (15:32)
It's both. It's both. The business, there's so many jewelers now. Well, I'm saying jewelers, it could be some of them are jewelers and some are jewelry designers. There's so much on the market now and so many things get copied and there becomes, there's sort of a sameness that can happen when that's going on. I've stuck.
Lauren Alvarez (15:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (16:00)
to a certain aesthetic for many, many years. And my clients, I have clients I'm seeing from 20 years ago, 25 years ago, and they're still wearing their pieces. They love them more than anything and the pieces look phenomenal. So that kind of longevity makes me feel great. And I don't worry as much about how much there is on the market and how everyone's.
Lauren Alvarez (16:13)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (16:30)
getting bombarded with all these different jewelry brands.
Lauren Alvarez (16:35)
Yeah. What advice would you give to somebody who is interested in pursuing perhaps a career in jewelry or they're interested in, you know, learning the trade? What would be kind of your initial guidance for them to start out in their pursuit and see if it's actually right for them?
Karen Karch (16:50)
Yeah, this is a hard one. I was thinking you might ask this question. And I was thinking about it because in my earlier years in business, it was pre internet, pre social media. So the way that you approach things was so different. And that's when I really created a strong foundation for my business. So it was so much in person. And
Lauren Alvarez (17:05)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Karen Karch (17:19)
Creating relationships with your clients in person for me has been really important. Then, you know, with social media and website and a more modern world, I still think having the hands -on techniques, learning them and doing those things yourself to a certain degree is a good thing. I...
at a certain point did everything at my own at the bench. And then I realized, hey, there's setters, diamond setters, they can do a much better job than me. Why don't I hire them and use my time differently? So I think, you know, finding the right network of other jewelers to work with is important. But if you don't have the skills, they're going to gaslight you.
Lauren Alvarez (18:01)
Hmm.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Karen Karch (18:16)
and tell you I can't do this. They still try to gaslight me now. They'll be like, that can't be done. And I'm like, come on. I know.
Lauren Alvarez (18:23)
And you're like, weird, because I've done it myself. Yeah.
Karen Karch (18:27)
So, so definitely having, even if you don't do it hands on really learning the skills, you know, you can probably learn it on the YouTube video now and see it, but having that as a foundation is important. And other than that, it's so hard to say. Now,
Lauren Alvarez (18:34)
Yeah.
What about apprenticeship? I mean, because that's something that comes up on the show all the time is about kind of the, I think it's kind of like a lost art in a lot of ways. A lot of people are in younger generations are almost anti apprenticeship because everybody wants to watch the YouTube video, do it themselves, learn the skill and put it out in the world on their Instagram shop. Do you still feel that there's, I mean, you've had some apprentices that went on to become very successful jewelers of.
Karen Karch (18:53)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Right.
Lauren Alvarez (19:13)
in their own regard. But I mean, for you, what's kind of your view now on apprenticeship and do you think it's necessary? And would you take on more apprentices if you were in that position early days again?
Karen Karch (19:25)
My assistant, has worked for me for about eight years now. And she said advice she was given was never work for a jeweler whose style you like, because you'll never develop your own style.
Lauren Alvarez (19:26)
-hmm.
Karen Karch (19:40)
So she worries about that sometimes because she came to work for me because she loves my work. She found it when she was really young in magazines. And so that sometimes worries her like, where's my own creativity? So I think definitely, you know, it's good to work for someone whose work you admire, but also you have to create your own creative bubble.
Lauren Alvarez (19:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (20:10)
and focus on your own aesthetic and develop it. At this point, there's so much of everything. So developing your own aesthetic gets harder and harder. But I think it is very important to do that.
Lauren Alvarez (20:17)
Yes.
I think I can really see that too, is like just developing your own point of view and, you know, making sure that it feels authentic to who you are, because I think we've all seen, you know, when a creative is just kind of regurgitating what they've seen or they're trying to kind of repurpose an idea, I can always tell when it's not really coming from the heart.
Karen Karch (20:39)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (20:43)
for you kind of reinventing yourself, reinventing your line, but staying true to some of your hallmarks. Um, what have been some of the biggest changes? I mean, I could think of one in the retail space of having a brick and mortar versus not, but what are some of the others that might not be as obvious?
Karen Karch (20:59)
Um, well, one thing that has been a major change is technology. So we used to make all the models. I would make them in metal at the bench. We would sink them in a mold and cast them from the mold. Um, now we can do things in CAD and we can 3D print them. And, um, we've developed techniques to be able to do the prints in a way that they look like they're handmade.
Lauren Alvarez (21:30)
Wow.
Karen Karch (21:30)
There's still a certain amount of the hand that's required to complete the piece from the casting to setting the stones, but we have techniques using technology to make things look handmade.
Lauren Alvarez (21:43)
That's incredible. I think one thing about your pieces and if listeners, if you're not familiar with Karen's jewelry, definitely click the link in the bio and in the show notes and really see, um, because there's this component of like natural and hand texture and, you know, just kind of movement in your pieces that you don't always see in a lot of, um, very polished, very like finished, I'll say jewelry. Like it's not going to be something that you would see walking into.
I'll say Tiffany or somewhere like incredibly commercial, like it's a lot more inspired by perhaps nature, perhaps movement of the body. Where did you kind of initially get that idea to keep the hand finished and not make it super polished and finished in that way?
Karen Karch (22:22)
It was one of my shortcuts. I used to cast from found objects where I fell in love with the texture of that found object. So I would cast the found object and then I would take the casting and I would manipulate it into a ring or I would manipulate it into a setting for an earring.
Lauren Alvarez (22:25)
Oh, the secret's out.
Karen Karch (22:48)
One of my really popular designs for a really long time, the Inner Circle, is cast from an acorn that we had our jeep broke down. We were in the middle of the desert and there was this acorn that was on the ground. And I picked it up and I was like, oh, this would make a great earring. So, you know, there's just, so that was nature.
Some of it was more industrial. There were like rusty old hooks that I cast in the beginning and took that texture. So it would be a mix of industrial things and nature and things that have shown age that don't look brand new. But yeah, and then I started as I was working at the bench just.
Lauren Alvarez (23:19)
Yeah.
I really like that.
Karen Karch (23:43)
I get into a little bit of a trance as I'm creating the piece and it sounds too new agey, but the piece tells me what to do. So, so I can, you know, I can't, I'm not always in the right mood to do it. So sometimes it really hits and I go into this trance and time just passes and I just, you know, do the thing. But, but yeah, so I think.
Lauren Alvarez (23:53)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (24:13)
After I started doing things more at the bench, I realized that the hand was such an important component to the piece. And it was going against the grain, especially for bridal back in the earlier days. We opened the store seven years after I started my business. And...
Lauren Alvarez (24:30)
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Karen Karch (24:38)
In the store, it was just an organic thing. People really liked my work and we would make a personal connection. So they would come to me and they would say, I want you to make me this ring in platinum with a diamond. And at first I hadn't worked with platinum at all. I'm like, okay, sure. Great. Let's do it. And then I worked, I figured it.
Lauren Alvarez (25:00)
You're like a new opportunity, a new thing. And yeah, of course I've done that.
Karen Karch (25:05)
So, so I worked it out. So it all happened really organically. We were in the right place at the right time. I had an amazing creative clientele coming through and we just started experimenting and doing different types of things for bridal. And it really appealed to me because I'd been in business at that point, probably about 10 years. And I,
didn't like from from doing wholesale and selling to other stores, I felt like there was a chew it up and spit it out mentality. Like, you know, what's new? What's new? Show me new. And then you would show them something new. And they would be like, well, that's too different. That doesn't look like you. So you could never win. But but it was just and the pace now is so much faster than the pace way back when.
Lauren Alvarez (25:42)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (26:04)
But what I loved about bridal is you know a person's gonna wear this piece every day and they're gonna wear it for a long time and it means something. So I got really excited about it and we decided, you know, working in platinum, adding textures, I don't think anyone had done that. Everything was polished perfectly and in gold.
Lauren Alvarez (26:29)
I had never seen it before.
Karen Karch (26:34)
maybe there were textured pieces made, but never in platinum. And for bridal, I don't think in gold, anyone was really doing the textured textured pieces either. So I found it such an exciting place to to be creative and kind of be a pioneer of a certain look. So it was it was really
Lauren Alvarez (26:39)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (27:04)
It was a fun time.
Lauren Alvarez (27:06)
I mean, I think it's amazing too, just to have the opportunity for a client to put their trust in you and say, well, I love this other piece I got from you. Let's do something I'll wear every day. I mean, also a little bit of pressure admittedly, right? That you're like, oh shit, it's gotta be really good and the setting's gotta be super strong. Was there ever a time where you created something that maybe just.
didn't pan out and how did you approach that when you're sort of innovating in real time or your clients are asking for things that haven't been done before, not just by you, but maybe by any jeweler. And so when you're making something and it doesn't go the way you thought it would, or it just physically, like maybe structurally can't work, how do you convey that and how do you kind of move past that disappointment to continue creating something that does?
Karen Karch (27:50)
this, this type of work requires a lot of patience. There's times where I'm working on something and I think it's the best thing ever. And my clients are going to go nuts and love it. And it takes them two years to warm up to it. So it's a matter of the long game. Sometimes you have to be patient and let people catch up to where, where you are.
Lauren Alvarez (27:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (28:18)
And then all of a sudden, everyone at the same time seems to realize they all need this thing. But yeah, so it's just, I have learned to not take everything I do too personally and be patient with it. And with the bridle and with the custom work that we do, I'm happy to report we've never had.
Lauren Alvarez (28:24)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (28:46)
a fail. Everybody's been happy with their piece. I mean, sometimes they decide they want an upgrade years down the road, but that's not something. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like they might want something similar, but with a bigger diamond or they might want to recreate the design they have in a different way. So.
Lauren Alvarez (28:47)
That's great.
That's fun. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, another thing that I think is really interesting that you offered way before I saw other people doing this, and it must be hard also to be that I'll say, you know, initial person or the trendsetter, because you know that inevitably people are going to copy you. I mean, that's maybe the nature of the business, like you spoke to, but it does kind of suck to get copied. I'm going to say I've experienced it and you're like, really? But one thing that I think is so interesting is that you were offering to reset your clients kind of stodgy.
Karen Karch (29:26)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (29:38)
pieces that maybe were heirlooms or something passed down to them that wasn't their taste. And you were like, let's take it and make it you. And this is something that you've continued to do, you know, throughout the years, but something that I saw as a really remarkable opportunity for someone who, yeah, maybe was given a really beautiful diamond, but the setting just made them stick it in the jewelry box. And you were like, no, no, no, pull out your pearls. Let's make them fun.
Karen Karch (29:39)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
The pearls were probably one of the biggest things back in the day. Everyone has a strand of pearls. And I had some too that were given to me by my grandparents. And I put a really rough industrial looking platinum clasp on it and wore it all the time. So people coming into the store saw that and they're like, hey, I have pearls. I want to do that. I want to wear my pearls.
Lauren Alvarez (30:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Karch (30:28)
So, so, you know, we started with that and moved more into the diamonds and other gemstones and reworking those type of things too.
Lauren Alvarez (30:41)
And your attraction to also unique gemstones. I mean, like I mentioned earlier, black diamonds, I think that was so cool. Something you really weren't seeing in many pieces, but some of the other stones that you've continued to work with and brought into the picture like blue green sapphires. And, you know, I know you have a tie to Australia with your husband and your dog, to be fair. But I mean, what are some of the other stones that you have seen and just felt so inspired and you're like, we've got to find a way to use this?
Karen Karch (30:58)
Ha ha ha ha!
Well, one of my faves is turquoise. I'm like, sorry, I came from the border of New Mexico. I can't help myself. And turquoise is a very, people are very passionate about it, that like it. So we've used that in many ways over the years and it comes in and out to some degree, you know, in and out of fashion, but for some people it's always in.
Lauren Alvarez (31:10)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Karen Karch (31:36)
and rubies I've gone deep into it's my birthstone and I love the vibrant red of it. we initially used only diamonds that were champagne or cognac or off off color because I wasn't a diamond person I sort of had to learn to like diamonds.
Lauren Alvarez (31:53)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, tough lesson.
Karen Karch (32:00)
It wasn't a natural thing for me. Now I love. Now I love them. I love all of them. So, you know, I like a more traditional colorless diamond too. But in the early days we were offering like a light champagne instead. Part of it, maybe it was a little more affordable. So if you're younger, you're getting engaged, you can get this really
Lauren Alvarez (32:06)
Yes.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (32:27)
cool earthy color diamond and you can get a bigger size stone. And then from there we moved into the black diamonds, which was so much fun to put them in engagement rings. And we sold tons of those. Our clients really went for it. Often the husband or boyfriend might be a little adverse because they were worried about what people would think and...
Lauren Alvarez (32:38)
So cool.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (32:57)
Was it a bad omen? Was it bad luck? But I know, I know, I know. But they still took off anyway.
Lauren Alvarez (33:02)
Also, these men are so superstitious. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, totally.
That's amazing. And also just seeing, I mean, the stones, I think that was the other thing too, is you couldn't find black diamonds that weren't set in silver elsewhere. And you were setting them in rose gold and it added this warmth to them that you just had never seen. So it looked totally different. It was totally unique. And then I think also you were using white gold, but that had a warmth to it. It didn't have a plating on it like most white gold had. And I remember I, for one of the first times I ever went into the shop,
Karen Karch (33:20)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Lauren Alvarez (33:41)
I've had an education on that because I was like, wait, this is white gold. Why does it look kind of yellow? And what was the choice kind of behind not plating your white gold and leaving it to have a little bit of warmth to it? Because that was also unique.
Karen Karch (33:54)
Yeah, we, I always liked the color of the white gold and I didn't feel like I wanted to mask it and try to pretend it was platinum. So it has a little bit of a warmth. So it gave pieces, as I was saying earlier, I like pieces that look like they've been around and they've, you know, aged weathered, um, they like, they've had a bit of a life and they have a soul. So the white gold.
is nice for that because it has a little bit, it almost is a tarnish sounds like a negative word, but it almost seems a little tarnished because it has this warmth. It's not true cold white like platinum. And for some people that color of metal just looks amazing on their skin. And it is a good way to set the natural color diamonds we were using.
Lauren Alvarez (34:43)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (34:49)
The Champagne and Cognac diamonds look gorgeous in it.
Lauren Alvarez (34:53)
Yeah, I remember trying on, very specifically, you had this amazing, it was like, well -lover two -carat cognac diamond set, you know, and I was like, wow, this looks great. And you're like, you should stack it with another one, it looks even better. And like, the more the merrier. And I think that there is something really emboldening about your pieces because they are all meant to play together. They're all meant to be layered and to be stacked and to be worn all the time. And I think that that's something that...
Karen Karch (35:05)
I'm
Lauren Alvarez (35:21)
You know, you see a lot of more traditional pieces and, you know, they're standalone and more people are stacking now. But again, just like the layering and just the beauty that comes from that, I think is something that you really jumped off with. And I mean, speaking of being ahead of the curve, I mean, you have this amazing photography campaign that you partnered with Marilyn Minter and
that was felt like a big moment, you know, in terms of bringing art and, you know, photography and fine jewelry altogether. Talk a little bit about the process.
Karen Karch (35:49)
Oh, yeah, that's one of my favorite career moments. And we actually still use the photography we did with her in our packaging. It still stands the test of time. That was in 2005, 2006 that we initially worked with her. And I was doing a rebrand when we opened the shop. It was called Push.
Lauren Alvarez (35:58)
So pretty.
Karen Karch (36:15)
So I was a bit shy to name the shop after myself and I wanted a name that was neither feminine nor masculine. And I wanted to, I don't know, I just wanted something that was slightly aggressive and moving forward because I felt like a lot of things were looking back and recreating designs that were old. So.
Lauren Alvarez (36:34)
Mm -hmm.
Karen Karch (36:45)
And it was on a sticker on the door of our shop. So we named it Push. So at a certain point after having the shop for, it was about 10 years then, people were getting these higher end pieces and the store had two names. It was Karen Karch and it was Push. So we wanted to do a big important rebrand and launches Karen Karch. And that was when we launched our first e -commerce website too.
So we needed to do something big to make this all as important as it felt. So I was working with a design company called Base Design, and they put forward the logo, which we still use, which I love, that has the contradiction to it. It has a cursive type of letter and a more bold, blocky letter.
Lauren Alvarez (37:33)
Yes.
Karen Karch (37:42)
And they introduced me to Marilyn Minter's work and they loved her work. They could never find a client who related to it, who would work with her. So when they showed it to me and I was like, she's it, she's perfect. Her work is everything I want. They were like, thank God we finally found someone. And they said, you have to meet her first. If she likes you.
She'll work with you. If she doesn't, it won't happen. So we had this initial meeting and it was just like a, you know, like having a tea in the afternoon together with the design team and with her. And she and I hit it off immediately and I passed the test and we ended up doing a campaign together.
Lauren Alvarez (38:25)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (38:39)
for the website to launch the e -commerce and for all of our other materials with the brand being Karen Karch. And it was her first Whitney Biennial, so she was just seeing success for years. Her work was
I don't know if it's because she's a woman or the type of work she did wasn't respected for the longest time. And then all of a sudden she was the belle of the ball and everyone understood her work and loved it. So we were right at the cusp of her getting so much critical acclaim and she's just, she's amazing to work with and.
Lauren Alvarez (39:11)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (39:28)
she's when we were working on the campaign, one of my favorite moments was the art director from base design was on his cell phone and he left the room. And so I'm there and I've never done a campaign like this. I've never done such a big production with models and makeup and nails and all of this. And so the art director was gone. So they come to me and they're like, what do you want to do with her nails?
And I said, well, maybe this color. And Marilyn looked at me and she's like, I don't do nuns. She just thought it was too boring.
Lauren Alvarez (40:09)
And was it inspiring for you at that moment? Were you embarrassed? I mean, I think I would have probably maybe been initially embarrassed, later inspired. How did you receive that?
Karen Karch (40:10)
Yeah.
Um, well, I mean, now I'm so much more sophisticated in my knowledge of things. Then I was so much younger and like, I didn't know what a cool nail was. Like I didn't, and there wasn't so much nail art or a focus on interesting nail polish at that time. But yeah, I was like.
Lauren Alvarez (40:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (40:38)
Okay, Marilyn, I hear you. I hear you.
Lauren Alvarez (40:39)
You've said your piece. Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because I think right after your campaign, and we're not that long after she did like a huge campaign where she did skate decks with Supreme. She had like all, she had this, you know, kind of momentum behind her. But like you said, you were right on the precipice of that. And, you know, I think it's so amazing that you had, you know, the kind of foresight to see this person who maybe wasn't being recognized the way that they...
Karen Karch (40:58)
Right.
Lauren Alvarez (41:06)
deserve to be, but you were like, this is it. This is the thing. And you obviously got each other because she was picky about who she worked with. And it really comes through. I mean, the photography is so beautiful. It really communicates like so much more than just the piece of jewelry that it's showing. And also, again, nobody else was doing this. This was so like fine art focused and it was sensual and it was really beautiful. And it makes sense. You're right. It does stand the test of time.
Karen Karch (41:26)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, there was one shot she did on me, which was great. And my nails that day, it was nail polish chipping on my fingers. And I'm like, well, what do you want to do about this? And they were like, they're perfect. Keep them exactly how they are. So it's, it's so nice to have that photo, you know, and be Immortalized by her.
Lauren Alvarez (41:47)
you
I love that.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (41:58)
you know, my messed up nails.
Lauren Alvarez (42:03)
So I mean, you had your shop in Nolita and you rebranded to then have it be your name. How did it feel to like walk in and see your name on the door every day? Did that feel exciting to you? I mean, you said you kind of didn't want to do that. So what was the impetus for the rebrand? Was it just getting confusing for people or did you feel like it was finally time to own your shit? What happened?
Karen Karch (42:07)
Mm -hmm.
It was getting confusing and also at that time I had hired a publicist and basically if you were a jewelry brand and we were going a little bit higher and you needed to go by your name. They needed to have you know the name of that person. So because I was able to work with a design company who nailed it on the logo it was actually the
Lauren Alvarez (42:31)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (42:54)
first one they showed me. I was like, yes, that's it. We're doing it. We did this whole initial study first. I didn't want to rebrand the wrong way. So I brought in a marketing company to help work with me because I was putting down a lot of money to do the website because then Shopify didn't exist. So you had to build your website from scratch. So it was a huge investment.
Lauren Alvarez (42:59)
Yeah.
Totally.
Karen Karch (43:23)
then with Marilyn Minter on top of it and everything else. So with the rebranding, I was happy with it. It felt right. So I was completely comfortable with it at that point. I'd been in the store working on the floor for quite a while and had a connection to my customers.
it felt like the right thing. I had no regrets about it.
Lauren Alvarez (43:47)
Yeah, that's amazing. And what was at the helm of your decision to you move from Nolita, you move to Gramercy Park, which is like a totally different neighborhood, even a different clientele, right? You're not going to get the passerby that you had before of that creative clientele just stumbling upon. It felt a lot more intentional.
Karen Karch (44:01)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (44:08)
I mean, it also was an incredible space. I mean, it was really felt like you were in a gallery of some sorts. What was sort of the decision for that? And then maybe we could even talk about the decision to eventually not have a physical retail location and what that transition was like for you to go fully online.
Karen Karch (44:09)
Right.
Yeah, so we were on Mulberry Street for 16 years. My husband opened an Australian restaurant next door and they were there for about 10 years. And we live just around the corner from both of these businesses. So at a certain point, I started to feel a little claustrophobic, like my life was in such a small radius and...
Lauren Alvarez (44:47)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (44:53)
A lot of other stores opened on Mulberry Street that I felt like weren't interesting businesses. They were kind of junky and I felt like that reflected on me. And I needed a change. So also we got a lot of tourists because Mulberry Street where we were, even though it's between Prince and Spring north of it,
Lauren Alvarez (45:04)
Mm -hmm.
Karen Karch (45:19)
we got a lot of people heading to Little Italy. So they would come in and they would have sticker shock. They wouldn't think the pieces were real and they would be having sticker shock that what? This costs what? So I just felt like I needed to move somewhere where the work would be respected in a better way. The neighborhood in the earlier years was more artistic and evolved and then it
Lauren Alvarez (45:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (45:49)
it lost a little bit of its luster to me. So I always loved the Gramercy Park area and it's kind of not uptown, it's not, it's downtown, but it's like, it seemed a little more grown up. It seemed a little more sophisticated. So I thought, okay, well, we found this space. It was big. It wasn't in a shopping area. So it was.
kind of standalone, which at that point I liked because there was nothing else that would reflect on me. So it was a double edged sword being up there on our own. And no one ever questioned their prices. In fact, they were like, oh, is that all?
Lauren Alvarez (46:23)
Yeah.
What a deal.
Karen Karch (46:37)
It just, you know, a change of about 21 blocks, 22 blocks, all of a sudden the work was seen in a different way. The store was larger. The store was a little bit more cleaned up, a little more minimal and sophisticated. So it did have the desired effect. It just didn't have that much foot traffic. So it was a little bit of a double edged sword there. We did.
Lauren Alvarez (46:42)
Wow.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (47:04)
meet some amazing clients from the National Arts Club and from the neighborhood that we still keep in touch with. we were on a 10 -year lease and we were going to move from Gramercy for sure, I felt like the space was just a little bit too difficult as a standalone.
space that was a couple steps down, we couldn't do a proper window display. So on year nine, that was 2020. So we were mandated to close between March and July. We reopened in July and it was so depressing. I was like, after one week, I said, I'm not doing this, that there's not going to be traffic.
Lauren Alvarez (47:35)
Hmm.
Karen Karch (47:53)
through the whole last year of our lease, let's negotiate out. I'm not doing it. So I wanted to leave it open -ended because at that point it was 25 years of retail for me. So I didn't want to make any decision quickly. So I thought, well, it's a chance to see what it's like to operate without a retail store. Everybody goes to the website first. That's a repeat client.
Lauren Alvarez (47:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Karch (48:23)
and they often know what they want. They know what it's going to look like. So I just thought, let's just give it a try. And it's worked out really well. At this point, I fixed up my apartment. And for clients, I know I invite them to come over. And it's a really intimate experience for people. And it's worked out really well. If I'd...
don't know the client so well, I'll meet them in a public place.
Lauren Alvarez (48:53)
Yeah, that's smart. That's smart. Just good guidance in general.
Karen Karch (48:59)
But at this point, after being locked down with the retail space for 25 years, and you know, I'm older too, so I like the opportunities now that it allows me to travel a bit more. I can work, you know, I can't see people in person, but I can do a lot of my work while I'm traveling. So I don't have to be in New York all the time.
Lauren Alvarez (49:15)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (49:27)
have a house, a property in New Mexico that we bought over 20 years ago and we're building it now. We are making the, I'm saying we, I'm not physically doing it, but we're taking the dirt from our land and making adobe bricks. And if you dig two feet under, there's clay.
Lauren Alvarez (49:48)
Wow.
Karen Karch (49:53)
So the clay will be the mortar to hold the adobe bricks together. So we're actually building a house that my husband's designing out of our own land, which I'm super excited about. So the plan is to spend more time out there. So I do sometimes miss, it's probably the most frequently asked questions from my client is.
do you miss having a retail store? So in some ways I do miss it. Every day you're there, you're like, it's like a roll of the dice. It's like, who's gonna walk in today? What's gonna happen today? A lot of times you just don't know. Some people will make an appointment, sometimes they don't. So it was always that thrill of the unknown, like what is gonna happen today?
Lauren Alvarez (50:28)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (50:44)
So that I miss a little bit of that more randomness by not having a retail location. But otherwise, I'm super happy having more freedom.
Lauren Alvarez (50:56)
I think that is something that like, you know, 2020 and the pandemic really afforded a lot of people was just like freedom and kind of asking ourselves, how do I want to work and where do I want to work and how do I want to interact with clients if that's applicable? And I think in your case too, I mean, I had mentioned it in the beginning, but travel does play a big role in your inspiration and in what's inspired your collections.
Karen Karch (51:11)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren Alvarez (51:18)
brilliant colored sapphires of all different colors and really creating these very geometric shapes that were totally stood out from some of the other textures and designs you had done. When you're traveling, you're really kind of taking it all in and experiencing the land. Do you feel like New Mexico is kind of that next chapter for you in terms of designing what's next and that next iteration? Is that a collection that we should expect? What's happening?
Karen Karch (51:45)
I don't know. I have been pondering New York City as a collection because, you know, it's like a big love of my life. So I still haven't got that out of my system yet and I still haven't completed that collection or fully realized it. But New Mexico, because I have been spending so much more time out there and will be, I think it will probably happen as well.
Lauren Alvarez (51:57)
Yeah.
I mean, you've taken a series of calculated risks that seem to be paying off big time. I mean, how do you know when it's time to go for it and take a risk? And maybe that's also kind of giving some advice to folks listening in today.
Karen Karch (52:28)
That's such a good question, Lauren. I think about this often because when I was younger, there's a certain naivete you have when you're younger and you take risks all the time because you don't know any better. So now that I am more experienced and I've been in the business a lot longer, I don't know that inner voice and if that inner voice keeps telling you.
this is the thing, you have to do this thing, even though you don't know for sure it will be a success or not. At some point that inner voice becomes so loud, you do it. You just have to do it.
Lauren Alvarez (53:10)
I think that's incredible too. I mean, and also, you know, knowing that, you know, you are making these big parts of it. I mean, you mentioned your husband, I mean, he's literally, you know, harvesting your land to make bricks. There's something there. Is he the biggest support during these bigger changes and these bigger moments or how do you navigate those? Like who bolsters you when you're navigating the bigger transitions that you've gone through?
Karen Karch (53:24)
Ha ha ha!
Definitely. I mean, he's been there the entire, well, not the entire time I've been in business. I met him, I'd been in business a short amount of years. I was working from my apartment doing wholesale and he was always such a strong support. And I always run every idea past him. He almost never tells me he thinks I'm wrong. Maybe that's why I listen to him.
Lauren Alvarez (53:59)
Good man. Yeah, like it's a great match. He likes everything I tell him. Yeah.
Karen Karch (54:06)
But it does, I mean, it does help to have that support system and at least someone to bounce the idea off of. And he usually will encourage me to take risks when I'm unsure and that inner voice is telling me to do it. But I'm like, oh, do I do it? Do I not do it? He's usually like, oh, what are you waiting for? Do it.
Lauren Alvarez (54:33)
That's incredible. I mean, and thinking about now, I mean, what is really like your motivation getting up in the morning, you know, knowing that you're not going to physical space. So what is like on your mind when you're getting up, you know, you start your day? Is it creating? Is it, you know, even success? Like, what does that mean to you now?
Karen Karch (54:53)
Yeah, I mean, we've been doing a lot of custom jobs lately. And I think that the one on one and being able to create dream up something really exciting beyond the boundaries of where I would let myself go. That's been really fulfilling. And, you know, every day is so different. Like some days I have client appointments, some days I have to work with
my jeweler, some days I have to go up to the jewelry district and read source stones. Some days I'm in a design session with my assistant virtually, you know, we're designing and sharing the screen. So there's so many different days. And often I might not know my schedule. I'm not that good of a planner.
So I might not have my schedule worked out for the week. I might know one day of the week what I'm doing and then each day is different, which is fun.
Lauren Alvarez (55:54)
Yeah, I think that's great. I mean, it also keeps things interesting for you. I mean, who wants to do the same shit every day? That's definitely not the path to creating. I think like, you know, knowing just a couple of questions as I really would love to spend as much time as possible with you What are some of your favorite brands right now? Probably outside of jewelry, but like, who do you feel like is doing business right? Who do you admire in this space? And you know, who are you excited about?
Karen Karch (55:59)
Mm -hmm.
My, I mean, my latest obsession fashion wise has been Prada. But fortunately or unfortunately, and, uh, and I just, uh, I just bought the Vogue magazine with Miuccia on the cover and I haven't looked at Vogue or bought Vogue for a million years. I saw her on the cover. I'm like, I have to have that. And then.
Lauren Alvarez (56:24)
Yeah, same.
Yeah, it depends on who you ask.
Karen Karch (56:46)
I, the byline is something like, I like taking risks or something like that. So that really appeals to me. I always love Rick Owens and I love that Rick Owens creates this completely unique world that he continues to evolve it and continues to expand on it even when it gets weirder and weirder.
Lauren Alvarez (57:10)
Yes.
Karen Karch (57:11)
Okay, well, it's it's cleaner and different. I like a furniture brand called Fromma that's from Copenhagen and their designs are really clean and modern, but there's something about the way they style it and they'll take chairs and pile them up in the photographs that they show them. So I'm like, oh, in a small space, I could have more chairs and make them pile them and make them into a
Lauren Alvarez (57:28)
Mm.
Yeah, just pile them up. Totally. That is the gift of living in New York. It really forces you to think more vertically. And now living in LA and having more square footage, I'm still trying to like put shit all the way up the walls. And, you know, my husband will be like, what? We have space. I'm like, but we could just, we could just hang the chairs there. He's like, what? Yeah. Why not?
Karen Karch (57:40)
There is sculpture.
Mm -hmm.
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Lauren Alvarez (58:02)
When you said Rick Owens, I don't know if you watched it, but there was an amazing house tour that he gave of his house. And it was like the world's most uncomfortable chair that you could ever sit in. And he's like, I sit in this chair to think. And I'm like, how? You know, it's made of stone, you know? Yeah.
Karen Karch (58:16)
I know, I know. I think I did see that in his closet was so minimal. It was like seven pieces hanging in it. And I'm like, that's the dream. Like I can't stop shopping and acquiring the new thing that's gonna be the last thing I ever need. And I keep doing it. And my friend pointed out to me that most likely he has a much bigger wardrobe. That's just his week's wardrobe in that closet.
Lauren Alvarez (58:23)
Yes.
same.
Oh, sure.
That's smart. Yeah, if we only had, maybe that'll be in your Adobe house, you'll have the week's closet and then you'll have the real stash, you know? That would be amazing. Well, I mean, Karen, what can you share for people who want to learn more about you, about your line, about how they could even work with you on a custom piece? Where should they go?
Karen Karch (58:45)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
They can go to our website and they can also go to our social media. I am in contact with people myself, which shocks people often when they email. They speak as if they're speaking to an in -between person, but it's actually me, so they'll be speaking to me directly. I love that personal connection with people. So...
Lauren Alvarez (59:35)
Yeah.
Karen Karch (59:36)
Yeah, so either the website or the social media, they can DM and I will answer.
Lauren Alvarez (59:42)
I love that. We're going to link everything in the show notes. So if you're interested in seeing Karen's pieces, which why the fuck wouldn't you, then please go check them out and DM her and let her know what you think. Karen, what is one final thought you want to leave our listeners with today? I feel like you've shared so many amazing just points of your own experience and things people can leverage into theirs. But what's something you want to share as kind of a closing thought?
Karen Karch (59:49)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Hmm, I think follow your dream, listen to your inner voice. Yeah, it's a hard thing to do in this day and age because there's so many, so many things coming at you all at once. But yeah, that would be it,
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:28)
well, Karen, thank you so much. This has been so cool to sit down with you and just like hear this part of the story that I never got to hear.
Karen Karch (1:00:38)
Oh, thanks, Lauren.
Lauren Alvarez (1:00:39)
Yes, well, this has been another episode of Don't Fuck This Up, the podcast answering the ultimate question, how the fuck did you land that cool job? I'm your host, Lauren Alvarez, and we will talk to you next week.