Genetics Unbridled - Horse DNA & Technology Powered by Etalon Equine Genetics

Splashed White and Lethals: What's the deal?

• Etalon Equine Genetics • Episode 8

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Is it possible to prevent heartbreak in horse breeding? Stuart Russell shares her devastating experience of breeding a white foal with lethal defects, despite taking extensive precautions. This episode uncovers the stories from horse owners worldwide, exposing the frequency of such genetic tragedies and the challenges in gathering definitive data. We delve into the ethical considerations and the dire need for comprehensive genetic testing to ensure responsible breeding practices over aesthetic desires.

We also explore the genetics behind breeding white horses, examine splashed whites and the importance  of genetically testing both the sire & dam. The emotional and financial impacts of losing a foal due to genetic issues are highlighted alongside the strides researchers are making in biobanking and developing tools to guide breeders. Additionally, we discuss how genetic testing can not only prevent undesirable traits but also enhance desirable ones, helping breeders produce the foals they are hoping for. Join us as we navigate the complexities of horse genetics and advocate for informed breeding strategies.

To learn more about this story read our latest blog at EtalonDX.Com

Contact us at info@etalondx.com

Stuart Russell:

I got people all over the country and all over the world texting me about certain horses that they had had the same thing and they thought that their situation was unique because they didn't go out and tell anybody.

Lauren McDevitt:

They felt like it was bad that that was our client, stuart Russell. On May 18th, she shared an emotional Facebook post highlighting the heartbreaking realities of horse breeding, revealing an all-white full-born with life incompatible defects. Our team is dedicated to researching genetic compatibility issues to prevent such tragedies, but we need help from horse owners like Stuart. Her willingness to share her experience opened the door to many people with similar unfortunate circumstances. In this episode of Genetics Unbridled, we'll learn more about what happened, discuss what we already know about splosh whites, how to avoid lethal traits and what we can do through scientific research.

Christa Lafayette:

lethal traits and what we can do through scientific research. So what we're going to try to talk about today is this whole thing about Splashed White 2. And we're going to try to dispel some myths and also give out some information on what is actually known and what isn't known. And I saw your post. Someone tagged us. I think it was Teton that tagged us right. So thanks, teton. We love working with them. They're just so excited about science and data and all of that. It's a ball. But I saw that post that you guys set out and I I felt really, I really felt for you, because there are going to be a bunch of people are going to come out and complain. Well, of course, we knew splash right to this, that and the other. But but the truth, is I?

Stuart Russell:

just I didn't get the memo on that.

Christa Lafayette:

Well, we don't. That's because we don't actually know that. That's the problem and here's why we don't know it, because we don't actually know that. That's the problem and here's why we don't know it. So you could look at all the people that are breeding splashed white two. Right, there's a ton, ton of people out there, right? Except there are very few known homozygous splashed white twos or all white horses that are out there competing, healthy and well.

Christa Lafayette:

And the problem with that is you could look at the numbers and say, well, the math doesn't work out. If there's all these splash white two horses out there, where are all the homozygous? Right, they must be dead because they're not out there. And that's possible. Except we happen to have a handful of samples in the lab of homozygous splash white two. We happen to have a handful of samples in the lab of homozygous splashed white too. Correct. But the owners only report that the horses are good. We don't have any veterinary reports, we don't have photos, we don't have videos. They're not competing, so it's self-reported data, which is okay, but it's not definitive. Then the second problem is if white foals are being born and having defects, nobody's testing them, so we don't have any evidence. There's no definitive proof that this is a problem. And, to your point, why you didn't get the memo is because the data doesn't exist. And there's a second problem the two horses that you're talking about, the mare and the stallion they don't just have splashed white too. Is that right?

Stuart Russell:

I know that my mare and I know that the stallion did not have lethal white. That would be the only thing I knew to test for, until, of course, I see a white baby born. And then the part of my knowledge that goes back to dogs is that you never breed a blue merle Australian shepherd to a blue merle Australian shepherd Right, because the babies are blind, deformed, deaf. Body parts aren't right. And when our very first our white baby hit the ground, I was supposed to be happy and I was devastated. I knew something was going to be wrong with this. I mean, of course, I was not one of the lucky ones out there that seems to have one that lived. I did. I was not fortunate to have her survive this, and so I knew it was bad. But that's as far as it went. I just knew that you know lethal white, the O-L-W-S.

Stuart Russell:

I don't know how everyone wants to say owls, but it's not. That's not the correct.

Christa Lafayette:

It's lethal, white overo.

Stuart Russell:

Right, right. And so I that's the only thing I knew at the time to test for with these blue eyed, bald faced horses. And and then you've got. You know, of course, social media is always is such a such a horrible beast at times. I did not go out and try to make another blue-eyed, white-faced baby. I just bred my very nice mare to a very nice stallion, of course hoping for the very best baby, thinking I had covered my bases with a leaf of white. I had in fact not, and it is so odd that when I actually made that public you know notation, you might, people might want to look into this I was amazed at the feedback, not the backlash, but the feedback that I got from it.

Stuart Russell:

I got people all over the country and all over the world texting me about certain horses that they had had the same thing and they thought that their situation was unique because they didn't go out and tell anybody. They felt like it was bad, so they hid it Right. And then I had one person reach out to me and say that they're that, that they know of a place that knows that it's a 25% chance and they take that 25% risk and they toss those babies to the side and put them down. They put them all down. They don't care because they're making so many of them, because that's what we, the equine world, wants. Well, that's not what Stuart Russell wants.

Stuart Russell:

I want something that can hear and perform, and sure who doesn't want pretty? But I've got a solid red mare in the barn right now that I adore. So that's, you know, that's. I think a lot of people assume things that are not, because I own a beautiful mare that is bald-faced, blue-eyed, she can hear, and that's good. Her very, very nice son, luca Fapani, has had a few struggles with showing him he's deaf. He's got our stallion because we have a homozygous black stallion. We have him crossed on her, which will probably be my favorite cross from here on out. Other than the fact we do have that one deaf baby Now, the rest of them have been solid, bay, with very little white, but that very first one was not and he is deaf. But that just kind of, in a nutshell, kind of gives you where I'm at in this, because I want a nice horse. I don't want anything with any type of birth defects, nor do I want to help create anything with any type of birth defect.

Christa Lafayette:

Well, I think no one does right birth defects, nor do I want to help create anything with any type of birth defect. Well, I think no one does right. And, to your point, there may be a lot of people out there that have had this happen and thought they were the only ones, because no one's talking about it. But what's interesting about the cross that you did? I took a look at the information that's out there and, yes, we've tested one of the parents, but we have not tested the other. So I'm relying on what's reported.

Christa Lafayette:

But it's possible that this baby may not have just been splashed white 2, splashed white 2. Correct, it's possible that it was splashed white 2, splashed white 2, and splashed white 1, splashed white 1, and possibly W20, which is a lot of interruption in the white genes. There's three different genes in there there's PAX, there's MITF and then there's KIT, and if you interrupt any one of those genes you can cause problems at a certain extent, but all three of them. You could see what you saw in Wirth. The issue here is because no one is testing these white babies that come out before they dispose of them. We don't know. We don't know if it's splosh right to splosh, right to right that made me feel horrible because you know you're dealing with a traumatic situation.

Stuart Russell:

Of course, even the farm that helped us fall her out. You know, I don't no one thought to take DNA. I mean because no one talks about this Right, and so that would be like if, if I could put anything back out there, which I think I'll end up putting a follow-up to this on my social media not that I'm usually putting stuff like that, but I think a big follow-up would be if people have them and they live, people have them and they die, they need to send it to wherever you tell me to tell them to send it. It's not a new topic, but I think that it's very important that people try to give that information of the known so that they can figure it out, and they say they can come up with the dummies thing, like for people like me that says don't ever breed this horse to this horse on the third Tuesday of the month. Whatever the parameters end up being.

Stuart Russell:

I try to keep it so vague because I know nothing about it or very, very, very little about it. It's just a regular little horse owner. I just want, I want them to be healthy. I don't want to. I don't want to contribute to a problem. There's no such thing as white quarter horses. I mean that's, it's crazy. When someone told me, well, you know, you'll have to register little Betty White as a sorrel or a bay, I was like are you kidding?

Christa Lafayette:

me oh, that's a whole nother issue. That's a whole nother.

Stuart Russell:

But that's like saying I mean the sky is blue or you know not blue. When you know it's blue, it is blue.

Christa Lafayette:

Well, the trick with that, before we go down the rabbit hole there, is that the underlying coat color is whatever it is it's red, it's bay, it's black, but that baby has so much white that it's one big white spot. So that's a whole technical difficulty with the registration that we don't even touch. But what we do touch to your earlier point is we do have a biobank, as you know, and we're doing research where, yes, we're a company, but we're a company of nerds and horse people and we thought, exactly like you, that this needed to be done. So we have been. We've been collecting samples from clients who say this is what's going on.

Christa Lafayette:

Here's the vet report, here's the sample, and then we put out a publication. The research is there, you can see it, it's been peer reviewed, and then we add it into the rules of build a horse. And what that means is the next time you're going to go cross a male and a female, a stallion and a mare, you can do that cross and build a horse, and it will give you warnings. If this is a possibility. It'll say, hey, don't do that, do this cross instead, because if you do this there's a 25% chance. Right, it's there, it's live.

Stuart Russell:

It works. Yeah, it's awesome. That's awesome To your point.

Christa Lafayette:

you know have people send in samples. If you have a white foal born, I know it's terrible, it's a nightmare when it happens.

Stuart Russell:

But take a minute, pull blood, get a biopsy, pull up tail hair, whatever it takes, send it in photos, vet report and say this happened to me, right, right, and I think it's also important, is it not to get?

Stuart Russell:

I know a lot of people when a horse passes away, they'll clip the mane or the tail. It's very important if you're going to pull a sample, just like you were doing it for registration, that you get the roots. I think is the other thing that I was told. Yeah, so, but again, you know, during those times when you're so stressed out and you're devastated, you're not thinking you know CSI to go ahead and collect all the evidence for somebody else later on down the line, and that's that's also a huge issue. But that is something I wish that we could put the word out for for the, for the, the horse owner, whether they beat the biggest one or the smallest one, all it takes is that one bad cross and you, you've lost. It's an emotional investment, a financial investment, it's just, it's across the board. You've taken not just one, but you've really, in a way, you've lost two years of doing something if you're working towards a project.

Christa Lafayette:

Yeah, it's expensive from every possible viewpoint. Correct Emotional financial time. It's just awful.

Stuart Russell:

It's awful. Yes, they had offered us a rebreed and I can appreciate that a lot. They're good people, very appreciated. Obviously, we will not be using that same mare, but that also puts us in a little bit of a quandary, because we only have we have three mares and y'all have tested one. That would be my spooks, chick Maya. You're about to test the other two. As soon as they come back home, we are, I pretty feel, pretty safe that they don't have any splash two in them. Just by looking at their lineage, I don't think I'm in a danger.

Christa Lafayette:

Yeah, be careful, we've seen it hidden. We have. Nobody believes that either, but we have.

Stuart Russell:

Yes, no, I do believe it, I do believe it, I do, and I'm hoping that I am just. I'm hoping I'm correct, because it's one of those things we can't get it back fast enough.

Christa Lafayette:

What we can do, though, is let us know when you're going to send these other two samples in, and we'll put the gas in, you know. Make it happen fast, and then what we can do is take you through, build a horse and show you the matches, and then you can make an easy, educated decision, with math and numbers and pictures, and it makes it easier for you to understand what it is you're supposed to do, and it'll take like 30 seconds.

Stuart Russell:

Right, okay, okay.

Christa Lafayette:

Yeah.

Stuart Russell:

That's just awesome that they thought to do that. I think that's even better because you know it's like when you are in that situation you also don't know where to start. Obviously your vet knows, but in the case that we were, our vet was up in Whitesboro, texas. She wasn't at home with a home vet who might think to do whatever and maybe that vet thinks to tell somebody think to do whatever and then maybe that that thinks to tell somebody. But it's like you said at the very beginning. I called a friend that she is in Stillwater, oklahoma, she's in research, and she explained the same thing that you did. That it's just a lot of different people know a lot of different things but they're not all sitting at the same table with the same pieces of the puzzle trying to build the same picture of the puzzle.

Christa Lafayette:

Right, right. So let's put it together. We have all the right tools and if we can get people to just bank those samples, send them into us. We'll bank them and we'll put together the information and be like here. Here are the numbers.

Stuart Russell:

And I've gotten several people sending me pictures of their babies. Are y'all taking their information? If they will go ahead and submit a test through you?

Christa Lafayette:

Yes, absolutely, we're very collaborative.

Stuart Russell:

You would like okay.

Christa Lafayette:

Yeah, we have published several papers with other institutions where we had the data and they had the professors and they wanted to write the paper. So we do that. There's no disadvantage to that.

Stuart Russell:

Right. To me, that's what's wrong with the whole world. I mean every aspect. Everyone's fighting against each other to be the first to know something and not share anything with everybody else, and it's so. You've got that added in there as well.

Christa Lafayette:

That does not make sense to be fair.

Stuart Russell:

No, it does not.

Christa Lafayette:

Even if we publish this paper right, we turn around and say, okay, splash white two is or is not lethal at this percentage. We're not going to make a million dollars on that, we're not. But the point is we have then demonstrated look, we're using science, math and facts to figure out what the best practices are, which is how we've developed medicine for you know, a couple hundred years now. So why don't we just continue to do that? Share the information and do better by our horses and forget about making $5 off of some patent. That doesn't make any sense.

Stuart Russell:

Correct, yeah, especially in something like this. I mean you literally are talking about the union of the egg and the sperm. I mean, I don't know that. I'm sure they can isolate so many different things and we can say I want the, you know, right front leg to be white, in the back right leg to be black. I mean, eventually I'm sure we can color code them exactly like, but right now it just seems like just to have a nice, live, healthy baby could be the goal If we could take out that risk as well. I mean, as with all the other risks that are out there, your color code.

Christa Lafayette:

Killing your baby is the last thing you think of Absolutely, and the color is just an illustration. There are other things beneath the surface. The same thing happened with fragile foal syndrome in the warm blood world. And then there's still persists this bizarre lore out there that fragile foal is just in warm bloods. It's just not true. And if you just run the test, it's cheap, it's fast, it's accurate, and then you know and you move on.

Stuart Russell:

Right, well, I was just gonna ask do y'all work hand in hand with other companies or other groups, yes, or do you find yourself? Y'all do work, we do.

Christa Lafayette:

We do. Actually, we work with a bunch of folks. We've worked with University of Toulouse. We've worked with Tasa Lieb out of Europe. We work with Samantha Brooks. She's out of University of Florida. We've worked with folks at Cornell. We've worked with horse owners. You can see in the publications every time we find something, discover something or put together the numbers, we give the credit to the people who participated. We don't care if it's a professor or a horse owner.

Stuart Russell:

It doesn't matter. Yeah, I don't see why it would. That's just crazy.

Christa Lafayette:

It just doesn't make any financial sense, there's no reason to do it.

Stuart Russell:

No, I'm like you. I don't understand what the glory or the financial you know there couldn't be one of them couldn't be good enough to overshadow why you would do this anyway. I mean, that's just because, like I said, you know this, genetics is just like algebra to me, and I sucked in algebra. It's just letter math. I don't my mind, I just need the facts. I just need that. You know A and B will equal C. That's as far as I can go in algebra and that's where your build a horse would help me better understand. You know, these are options. These aren't options for this particular mare or this particular stallion needs. And as a stallion owner, I would want to know that. If you told me and I gave that example to Lauren if you told me that breeding our stallion to a certain group of mares would make their back right leg fall off by the time they hit age seven, I wouldn't breed again. I wouldn't take that risk because, I wouldn't want to know that.

Stuart Russell:

well, I hope my mare owners tested their mares to make sure that baby's back right leg's not going to fall off when it hits age seven. I would just have to stop. I would just have to take responsibility for that defect by not making it happen anymore. And if that was the part that I could play in it? I mean, granted, I don't breed 150, 200 mares a year, I breed 20 or less, but one would be too many. If you told me that genetically vagus was contributing to that problem, we'd be done.

Christa Lafayette:

Well, what about the flip side? So another this is a personal bone I have to pick with the genetics community. They're always talking about bad stuff. Let's go look for the bad stuff. What about all the good stuff? What about looking at temperament, myostatin and gait and size and discipline? Why isn't anybody looking at that? So we've set that up, but boy, it's taken people a long time to understand. This is a thing. You don't have to look for something bad, you can go hey, if I cross this mare on that stallion or this mare on that stallion, I'm going to get the speed I want or the temperament I want or the combination of both, and everybody wins. Right, you're knocking out the bad stuff because you can eliminate that. But now let's shape the good stuff.

Stuart Russell:

Yeah, but I don't think our world's set up like that. We've always tested for the bad stuff, right? I mean it's just, I don't know you're going to date somebody you want to know that don't have STDs. I mean you know the good personality and all that stuff eventually gets there. But it's just, we're always testing for the bad. We're always testing for the bad. I don't think we ever, we don't. Also, we don't think scientifically probably there's a way to test for the good.

Christa Lafayette:

There is, don't think scientifically, probably there's a way to test for the good there is, we do it Right.

Stuart Russell:

Yeah, and I know you do, I know you do. I've read the results and it is actually kind of crazy because it's. I know you're not looking at a crystal ball. I know you're looking at something that you have done some research on and that's cool and that's something that people need to look into maybe a little bit more, because I see how people will say my mayor does A, b and C. Can your stallion fix that? And I'm like are you kidding me, but with your answer? But when you are testing, that's possible. I mean it is possible, whereas before I wouldn't have bet money on it. But you know they could probably say, well, hey, this does say this and it would make me lean that direction.

Christa Lafayette:

Yeah, I mean, versus complete unknown if you are, if you're in a runoff and it's a timed round and you win by half a second, you still won, right, right. Every little bit counts. Every little thing that tips the hand in your favor matters.

Stuart Russell:

Right Now. I think that that's cool that you do that. It's almost like it's like a fortune telling type of situation when you read that, because when I got back his report I was like they don't know that, how did they know that? So again it's that whole genetic algebra thing. I just it's. It's elusive genetic algebra thing. I just it's. It's elusive to me and I just need the cliff notes on it that's our job right yeah, yeah, that's that's the role we play.

Christa Lafayette:

Just make the cliff notes for me, because I'm so not intentioned to detail other than the big stuff again, our job is to make it stupid easy so you can hit a button, figure it out, then go back out and ride. You don't need to worry about all this Let us worry about all that stuff, right?

Lauren McDevitt:

There you go. I love that. You call it genetic algebra, I call it alphabet soup. I'm like what are all these letters mean?

Stuart Russell:

I mean, it is so much just like algebra. When they very first people, when we very first started breeding him, people want to know is he homozygous black? I'm like I don't know. Look at him. I mean he's just, he's really dark. He's registered as a bay, he didn't look bay and I don't know. And everyone I said, what does that mean? And someone said, oh, that means that he can't produce a chestnut, which is, you know, my favorite mirror in the barn right now is a chestnut. But but okay, I can see that because we, like Baskin Robbins too, we, like you, know 30 different flavors, and so I could see that that was an advantage. And so I did get him tested and no, he can't produce a chestnut or a sorrel. He is homozygous black. And so that means a lot to people. And I'm just that I need to learn more about the other letters as well, because supposedly I now have a um, oh my gosh grula a grulia oh, they're beautiful.

Christa Lafayette:

Yes, I do love a grulia.

Stuart Russell:

Okay. Well, somebody's claiming they've got one by him and I'm like okay, I don't know if you can do that or not. I'm sure it's in that algebra equation somewhere.

Christa Lafayette:

Send it in. We'll tell you whether or not it's real.

Stuart Russell:

I'll let her know. Yeah, that's what she thinks it is.

Christa Lafayette:

That would be cool. Gruelias are beautiful.

Lauren McDevitt:

Yeah, we'll see. Well, and going back to what you said too, about the negative side of it being kind of what motivates people, the reasoning for that is because of the heartbreaking situations. A lot of times those situations are what stick with you and that you remember over the years. Unfortunately, you know, you don't think about all the successful babies that went on to you know, compete in the show pen, as exciting as it is. It's those heartbreaking ones that really, really affect you and then people go okay, genetic testing is important and that's why, too.

Lauren McDevitt:

we do such comprehensive packages because everyone's like I don't need all this stuff. Why do I need this color and that color? It's like, yes, you do, yes, you do. You may think you know everything there is to know, but there are a lot of times things hiding there and you don't know until you test for a large assortment of things you know I had clients reach out before and they're like why is this coming up in quarter horses when it's not something that's required in the seven panel?

Lauren McDevitt:

And it's because there's other things out there that can cause, you know, a baby that's not going to thrive, and so yeah, we don't care about what's required.

Christa Lafayette:

We care about horses.

Lauren McDevitt:

Right, right, and so we try and give you as much as possible so you can find the you know silver lining of the good things that you're looking for. And and going back to two about you know, breeding with stallions and if they have something that's not great, sometimes it's just a matter of combining the two carriers. But if you're breeding something that isn't a carrier of those things, then you may be okay, you know, but it just takes the research and the time and it's not, you know. Oh, my stallion has this and I can never use him again. It's just about finding the mare that you can breed that horse with.

Christa Lafayette:

Right the combo.

Lauren McDevitt:

Yeah, so that's why the research is so important and we can't thank you enough for the post that you did. It's always a little bit of a leap of faith and a very vulnerable thing, and you never know if someone's going to come after you and say well, you should have known this.

Stuart Russell:

I'm not big on posting really anything personal just because of my past life experiences, just I'm not that kind of person, but that just it really bothered me. I mean it really, really bothered me because I don't, I want to breed very responsibly. I think the other thing talking about why maybe people don't do it is you know, everything is such a money driven world, and I'm not saying, obviously you have to stay in business and everybody should have to make a profit. There doesn't seem to be. Maybe there's not something tangible that comes with it. They get a report, but you know what I'm saying? It's just like everyone talks about the prices of registration, coggins, tests, vaccinations, it's true, shoeing. It's like you're nickel and dimed.

Stuart Russell:

Everyone's complaining about it through all the horse shows, your typical backyard person that just has one or two backyard horses. They don't usually care about any of that. And so the people that do seem to care the most are spending so much money it's like, oh, that's just another way to get my money. But look at how much money I could have saved if I could have avoided that entire situation. Much money I could have saved if I could have avoided that entire situation. I would give anything to wish back and, you know, wind back the hands of time so that I could have planned that better, because I mean, I don't know, I'm just going to throw money out $100, $200 for a full-blown all-over testing. I would have saved myself thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in two years of time.

Christa Lafayette:

That's well said, but if this hadn't happened, how long would it be until someone said something? You said something Well.

Stuart Russell:

I'm usually the person you can't shut up. I am not one to hide the dirty truth on things. I'd rather just lay my whole family. That's our thing. Let's lay the problem on the table, let's throw out some answers, let's come up with something and let's move forward. Thank you very, very much, and I'll send you some of the people that have come to me.

Christa Lafayette:

Well, thank you, because you took a huge risk and a lot of people are going to learn a lot and benefit and hopefully not not fall into that same trap that you fell into. So thank you for that Exactly.

Stuart Russell:

Let's hope that's what works out of it. Thank you all so much and thank you for what you do. I appreciate it very much. I'm learning to appreciate the algebra part of this even more. I'm glad you're doing the genetic algebra for me.

Lauren McDevitt:

Well, if you need anybody to explain it ever, we're always here, always doing the genetic algebra for me. Well, if you need anybody to explain it, ever, we're always here, always. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Genetics Unbridled. Check out our show notes for more information on this story and explore other resources. If you learned something in this episode, make sure to leave a rating and review so that other horse owners can also find us and learn as well. For those of you who have experienced or know of any genetic complication in white foals, please contact Etalon at info at etalondxcom, to help improve breeding outcomes and support the equine community. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

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Christa Lafayette

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Lauren McDevitt

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