Genetics Unbridled - Horse DNA & Technology Powered by Etalon Equine Genetics
Horse DNA, genetic testing, coat color, ancestry, breed testing, cloning, Crispr, genetic editing, performance, health, equine athletes and more! We talk about all things horse and genetics on this podcast with all horse folk from celebrity athletes and their equine partners to breeders, judges, registries and everyday owners. Brought to you by a team of scientists who happen to be horse people. We know you, because we are you. Know your horse all the way down to the DNA.
Genetics Unbridled - Horse DNA & Technology Powered by Etalon Equine Genetics
Untangling Curly Horse Genetics: DNA Risks, Rewards, and Discovery
Ever wondered what makes curly horses so special? Join us for a fascinating journey with Bunny from the International Curly Horse Organization and Dr. Mitch Wilkinson, their research director, as we uncover the distinct traits of these unique horses. From their hypoallergenic curly coats that change with the seasons to the diverse subbreeds originating from various regions, Bunny shares her captivating personal journey into the world of curly horses. Whether you're a horse enthusiast or curious about equestrian genetics, you'll gain invaluable insights into the importance of genetic testing in preserving these adaptable and friendly horses, along with the joys and challenges faced by curly horse owners, particularly in preserving their wonderful coat.
Our conversation goes deep into the genetic intricacies of curly horses, focusing on the known and unknown curly genes like KRT25 and SP6. Dr. Mitch and Bunny bring to light the potential coat problems from breeding incompatible genes, with real-world examples like Domino, highlighting the global impact of these genetic issues. Learn about the ongoing research efforts by ICHO and Etalon, aiming to minimize inbreeding and enhance the usability of curly horse hair for spinning. This episode offers a comprehensive look at the scientific and practical aspects of curly horse genetics, ensuring the health and sustainability of these rare and remarkable horses.
ICHO Links:
ichocurlyhorses.com
ICHO Facebook
MYTH & MYSTERY II Book
Etalon Links:
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Welcome back to Genetics Unbridled, powered by Etalon. Today, we'll be diving into the fascinating world of curly horses with two incredible guests Bunny, from the International Curly Horse Organization, and Dr Mitch Wilkinson, their research director. Together, we'll explore the unique traits of curly horses, how genetic testing plays a crucial role in preserving these incredible animals, and the importance of their hypoallergenic coats, which set them apart from other breeds. Bunny is a founding member of the ICHO since its start in 2000, but she still recalls her very first introduction to curly horses.
Bunny:I saw one at the Eklund Aff Fair in Ohio and I was smitten. It was a curly stallion. He had the most wonderful temperament and curls all over his body, and that's when I started searching for one of my own. They're just lovely, lovely horses.
Lauren:Bunny enjoys researching curly horses with Etalon and our other guest on this episode, Dr Mitch Horses with Edeleon and our other guest on this episode, dr Mitch.
Dr Mitch:I feel that my role is to encourage academic equine geneticists and laboratories like Edeleon for specific genetic projects that will benefit the horse population and then to report and apply the findings to help that population. In this case it be Curly.
Lauren:Dr Mitch brings decades of genetic research to the table. With Bunny's encyclopedic knowledge of pedigrees and Dr Mitch's expertise, we're in for a deep dive into everything you could ever want to know about Curly horses. So to get things started, I would love if Krista could talk a little bit about the connection between Edeleon and the curly horses and how it all kicked off.
Christa:They are adorable. I'm not even sure I knew what one was and I have to jump on the Mitch bandwagon here. I got my education from Bunny and Bunny and I at this point go back a few years. I guess now Is that right, Something like that. And she was one of the first people that I talked to about these animals and she said, well, we're doing this research, and could you do this and could you do that, and I'm like sure.
Lauren:Let's figure out how this works.
Christa:And it's been a really interesting journey and it's so much fun to look at the variability because these aren't their own breed, they're a type. You know they have a common gene or genes, but they could be any breed really, and every time we get the pictures they're just so much fun and Bunny's been great to work with and now I've met Mitch, so let's see what we can do with it.
Lauren:Right, we'll probably have a handful of listeners who aren't super familiar with them. So, bunny, I would love it if you could kind of introduce us to what is a curly horse and then what sets them apart from other breeds that most people are familiar with seeing day to day. Sure.
Bunny:The curly horse is unique because of its curly coat jean trait and has a long curly winter coat that resembles a sheep in appearance. They lose their longer curly coat in the spring and appear smooth hair in the summer, yet retain their very short curled hair. In the fall their longer curly coat returns. The curly coat is caused by genetic mutations and there are many mutations that cause a curly coat. They have been found to be hypoallergenic for most owners that are allergic to horses. A few studies have been done to find out why they are hypoallergenic and at this time we do not have definitive answers. As for calling them a breed, their defining attribute is a curly coat mutation trait. Yet there are many curly coat mutations. Rather, we have curly horse subbreeds pertaining to coat, gene type and origin line. Curly coated horses have been found worldwide and they most likely have their own unique curly coat mutation. The KRT25 and SP6 curly coat mutations have only been found in North America.
Bunny:The first curly coated horses known in North America were from the Native Americans, particularly the Crow and Sioux Nations around 1803, and were also found in the wild Mustang herds, especially from Nevada. There are several origin curly lines. We are trying to preserve the D'Amelie modified Nevada Mustang. The Nevada Curly Mustang. The Cook Curly line out of Nevada and has an unknown coat gene. The Native Warrior line that comes from the Sioux Nation, originally the Canadian line from Alberta, canada and surrounding areas. The Saltwells-Wyoming Mustang. The Curly Jim gated line. The Sulphur Curly Mustang line that has an unknown coat gene, and others in the pony and miniature lines.
Bunny:In the early days of breeding curly horses, many other breeds influenced the curly horse because there were so few curly horses available. Also, many of the origin lines were bred together, which resulted in mixing curly coat jeans because of lack of curly horses available. This is why testing for curly coat jeans is so important. Curly horses come in all sizes, colors, from draft influence to saddle type and pony and miniature sizes. They can compete in all disciplines, from ranch work, pleasure, pleasure, gated, jumping, driving, traducesage and eventing. They are truly an all-around talented horse known for their easy trainability, people-oriented, friendly nature and a fine work ethic.
Holly:I do have a question, though, for you, Bunny, because this is something that I experienced years ago, when I was at a show with a clipped horse. Have you ever had anyone approach you and go oh my gosh, what's wrong with your horse, or why does it look like this, or what's going on with its coat, yes, and sometimes people will think that horse that has cushions.
Bunny:But they're not, because they have the coaching and usually we have to tell show people that you do not have to trim them but you can braid their manes to make them look neater and things like that. And of course in the summer when they shed their long curly hair, their coat is very, very short so they appear smooth coat. So a lot of times people won't even know it's a curly in the summertime. So they can get away with it. It shows, without being too drastic.
Christa:So you said that the first curlies are supposedly originating in around the 1800s.
Bunny:Yeah, that's the first known.
Christa:Were there any documented in Europe or just in the Americas?
Bunny:Well, there has been references to Curly horses, even in China, you know, hundreds of years ago. But they're probably their own unique mutated coat gene and have nothing to do with the North American Curleys. There have been sightings earlier, but the ones in North America, the latest we, or the earliest we know of, is from the Sioux in around 1803. And that's when they documented on their winter couch that they stole the curly horses from the crow. So that's the history that's so interesting.
Dr Mitch:So what this probably was was a spontaneous mutation that happened in the wild horse herds about that time and those spontaneous mutations are happening today. New curly coat gene mutations are being documented here by ICO every year. I think last year Bunny will say we had three or four that we documented and those are new unique mutations. And those are new unique mutations and I'll get into that with my explanations in a little bit. But we don't have any way of knowing whether the curly-coated horses that the Sioux had in 1803 were the same horses that have the same mutation today. That mutation could have died out, a new mutation taking its place, or it could be KRT25, which is the most widespread mutation, and mutations that have been around longer tend to spread further. So the most common mutation is normally the oldest. But we don't have any really way of documenting that unless we find a horse bone from the early 1800s and test it and find out that it has KRT25, which would be an exciting thing to look for.
Christa:So that's interesting because it ties back to the white markings that we've been studying so long, because some of the color breeders want to know where those white markings come from. We found the same thing that it goes back in time and the more widespread they are, the older they are. Typically, I think Tobiano's like 8,000 years old or something estimated right, but it'll be interesting to see. Are these curly regions similar in activity to like the kit in the MIT app, where they mutate all the time?
Dr Mitch:Be fun to find out. You've got it Exactly. That's exactly what's happening. So just because you see two curly horses or an old picture of a curly horse in China doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the curly horse's tear.
Lauren:From a genetic standpoint. What makes curly horses hypoallergenic and why is this such an important trait?
Dr Mitch:There is a huge amount of anecdotal information that curly horses are hypoallergenic and many people swear by it and I certainly do not want to minimize their anecdotal reactions to curly horses, but logic tells me, with this many different genes out there making numerous curly coats, having a little bit of a hard time understanding why all these would suddenly be hypoallergenic. To get back to that, you need to know what hypoallergenic is, and it is a cosmetic term for the cosmetic industry and it means less allergy and it doesn't have a real, firm definition, and so when you say that something, a horse or a type of makeup is hypoallergenic, you're just saying that it produces less allergic reaction. Okay, on that. And the latest study was 2018, and it was a very flawed study. They didn't distinguish between any types of curly horse, as if it was all one type of horse, and they found that curly horses in general, being a long-haired horse, probably have more dander than other horses. They also found out that there is great variation regardless of the horse breed, be it Curly or Morgan or whatever you want to say in individuals.
Dr Mitch:Some individuals seem to have put out more dander than others, and the main horse dander is EQC1, is the main protein that is put out. And with this I do have a theory. The main immunoglobin that produces allergic reaction is IgE, and IgE is very specific that it binds to effector cells and what ends up happening is the protein has to bond into the notch on the IgE and that notch is very specific, like a picture puzzle, and if it doesn't really fit it doesn't really bind. Happening here is some of the proteins being serotonin. Proteins are not or a different shape than a normal horse dander, a normal horse eqc1, and that would and it would not bond into the little niche and therefore not activate the, the IgE and start the allergic cascade. Now, that's just a theory.
Christa:Well, you can make the same argument against doodles or other hypoallergenic dogs. That's a big lore. Also, there's no clinical proof that a dog is hypoallergenic.
Dr Mitch:Right. So that's kind of a nebulous thing that I may not live to see resolved, but I think someday somebody will find some answers on that.
Lauren:Obviously, we are pretty lucky that we've gotten to work with you guys for quite a few years now, as you guys were talking about earlier, and a lot of horses that we've tested, and so I would love it if any of you would want to jump in on the importance of genetic testing in curly horses. So how does genetic testing support the preservation and understanding of these unique traits that curly horses have, and then maybe give us some examples, if you have any, of how breeders can use it?
Dr Mitch:The continued survival of these horses is dependent on genetic testing and the reason why one of the problems that curlies have and this has been a mystery for a long time is a coat problem. And this when was it bunny? Was it? Was it 2017? I discovered that they can inherit two, two different mutations at one time yeah, I think it was 2017, wasn't it?
Dr Mitch:all right it was right after they found krt25. And Bunny and I were testing horses and I suddenly realized that horses can inherit more than one curly causative gene at one time and I thought it was I don't know. I felt like Archimedes and wanted to yell Eureka and run around and was calling everybody on the phone and I knew it was important at the time but I didn't realize how important it was. The problem that we have with these curly horses is that there are so many different mutations and more mutations being made every time and every day and not all of them are compatible. And when you have two incompatible mutations inherited by a single horse at one time, you can run into some really severe alopecia and coat problems and it can range all the way from total alopecia and no hair and a bald horse to bald patches, and I sent Krista some pictures of this and how it goes follows the rules of Mendelian genetics through the generations.
Christa:One pause. I think we're missing a major point that he's trying to make. Is it possible that you and Bunny send us a sample of a known curly horse and we test it and it comes back negative for KRT25 and negative for SP6, the two known curly genes? Does that happen?
Dr Mitch:Yes, all the time. Why.
Christa:All the time. Please tell us.
Dr Mitch:Why does it happen?
Christa:Why does the test say they're negative for curly genes and you all know it's curly? Please tell us they're negative for curly genes and you all know it's curly.
Dr Mitch:Please tell us it's simply because it has inherited a curly causative gene that we do not have a test for. So we can't test for that gene. So it's unknown yet. It's unknown yet.
Christa:New genes.
Lauren:Applause. I think one of these is an applause.
Bunny:Thank you, Petaline.
Christa:One of those is an applause. I think that when people listen to these podcasts, we have trouble driving home that we don't know everything about genetics yet, which is what you're getting at right, and you know a lot because you guys know these horses and we have some science here that we can apply to your horses, but sometimes the answer is still I don't know Most important thing that we need to do is we need to find some more of these unknown coat genes so that we can test the horses to know what's going on.
Dr Mitch:Genes, so that we can test the horses to know what's going on by this weird circumstance, by just. The two most common genes are SV6 and KRT25. At least we think they are and those are somewhat compatible and a horse that inherits a copy of each of those seems to get by pretty well. There are some minor little things, but it seems to get by pretty well. There are some minor little things, but it seems to get by pretty well.
Dr Mitch:But if it inherits one of the others, with KRT25 especially, you start running it as some very severe coat problem and what we will see is Bunny will send a sample in and it'll come back and she'll email me and it will say this horse is heterozygous, has one copy of KRT25 and it's got ball spots all over and it doesn't have a mane or tail. So what does that tell us? That tells us another gene is present that we can't test for. We need to find these genes so we can tell breeders don't take the chance of adding this gene to that gene, because this is what will happen, and in order to do that, we simply need to find some of these. That is the major importance of genetic testing and why I say this breed cannot continue to exist, because what's ending up happening over time is we're getting more and more bald horses with balding problems.
Christa:Because people are trying to preserve the curlies.
Dr Mitch:Right, and they're breeding horses with incompatible genes and it follows the rules of Mendelian genetics and you can breed these two horses with incompatible genes and you'll be lucky three times and have normal looking horses and then the fourth time you'll end up with one with bald places on it and no mane or tail. So that is the problem. And you know, I spent a week with a family in Switzerland and they have a horse named Domino an He has no hair and he's subject to all kinds of irritation and insect bites. His owner puts him in a full body fly sheet and insects can go in his ears all the way to the eardrum because he has no ear hair. I mean and the terrible thing about this, he's a wonderful horse. He has the most wonderful temperament, he's athletic, he's fun to ride, he's just a wonderful horse and he was very lucky to have an owner that went the extra mile for him. But no owner and no horse should have to go through that.
Bunny:I would like to add, though, for the population of Curleys we have, the majority are a heterozygous for one coat gene, either KRT25 or SP6. And the number of horses that are dual gene, that carry both KRT25 and SP6, are still in the minority compared to the heterozygous horses.
Bunny:So we do have some balding problems. There's no doubt about it, and we're discovering more and more about the unknown genes that are mixed in with the known genes and we really don't know what the mixing is going to create. Like if you have KRT in an unknown gene. Like if you have KRT in an unknown gene and then maybe add another unknown gene. We have no idea what that will cause. So testing is very, very important.
Dr Mitch:One other thing we need to add is this is not unique to North America. In Patagonia, they have balding problems with their curly horses. In southern Siberia, with the Zabalanskaya horses, they have balding problems. So it's not unique to North America. It's wherever these horses exist, with whatever genes they have. This is unique for the type of mutations that create these type of horses and it's worldwide, yeah.
Holly:I think it's extremely interesting that you guys have this happening with this gene interaction, because we also this year are seeing a big push with that, with the quarter horse and the paint horse world, with some of the splash whites, and it comes down to there's just not enough people genetically testing their horses, so there's just not enough information, and so I think that's a huge, huge barrier and that's something that we're really trying to push home is that you know, everyone should be genetically testing their horses, you know, not even just for health reasons, but also for these colors and for performance and everything, because once you have that information, you know we can take it to the next level and we can, you know, hopefully prevent some of these things from happening in the future.
Christa:You're exactly right. And if, by testing horses, if we can find why some of these curly genes are producing alopecia, the chances of it being the same in humans is pretty good. We've seen that, with some of the mutations in color, that horses and humans experience the same types of disorders or issues, behavior, and look from the same types of mutations in the same regions, mammal to mammal.
Lauren:Interesting Bunny. You want to explain the relationship between ICHO and Edelon. And then, how does this partnership support ICHO's mission?
Bunny:We have two known curly coat genes KRT25 and SB6, that are testable. Edelon provides that testing for us and ICHO now requires curly coat gene testing for all registered curly horses. Requires curly coat gene testing for all registered curly horses. This helps the owner and breeder know what coat gene their horse carries and what gene to breed for, and helps us identify new coat gene mutations If they test negative for both KRT25 and SP6, yet have a curly coat. Etalon also provides genetic disease testing, color and performance testing. We know of a few genetic diseases that have shown up in curly horses CA, which is cerebellar abiotrophy introduced by an Arabian stallion in the 1960s in a Nevada origin line, and PSSM1. So testing for these helps breeders and owners know what their horses carry and how to care for them and breed accordingly. Some of the quarter horse diseases also show up, like GBED, because some curly origin lines carry quite a bit of quarter horse.
Bunny:Icho has always been an organization dedicated to researching the curly horse, since our formation in 2000. The partnership with Etalon fulfills our mission of protecting, preserving and continuing research data gathering on the health of curly horses and other unique characteristics such as performance genes, temperament genes, as well as curly coat genes. Many years ago owners and breeders shared the endurance qualities and temperament qualities of their curly horses and with Etalon testing we find most curly horses test as endurance type for performance and DRD4 homozygous curious for temperament type. Curlies have always been brave and curious and it fits with this testing results. I'm also happy to report that our curly owners and breeders have been testing their curly horses with Edelon through ICHL in record numbers. This helps ensure a healthy curly horse for the future with Edelon's partnership. What more could registry ask for? Thank you, edelon and thank you owners and breeders.
Christa:Well, we're indebted to you. I mean, I have to tell you we work with a lot of registries. You guys may not be the largest registry we work with, but you guys are absolutely on it. You are always interacting, you're always asking questions, you're always sending in samples and following up and asking more questions. It's just, it's a pleasure. I mean from one nerd to another. We love it.
Christa:We love it it is so much fun and we're finding out so much. I had no idea that the Curleys were so diverse. I mean, I just assumed they'd be like kind of maybe like Mustangs or certain groups of ponies, where they're from this group and isolated Not at all.
Lauren:They're from all over the place. They are. They're very complex. I think you said something really interesting too in talking about you know the quarter horse lines and GBED, and we do hear a lot of times oh, I only need to test for these few tests and we're always encouraging please, please, look into testing for more. We offer a wide variety of packages so that way you can get all the information you need, and sometimes there's things there that will surprise you. So I mean we really try and take that whole horse approach and really understanding them. Maybe there's something there that you know you feel is an issue, but it's more just using that information as a tool of you know how you manage that horse and if you're breeding, who you breed to, which you guys know very well. But again, too, a big part of it is that communication with the horse owner. So working with you guys is huge because we do get that collaboration and you guys are so quick to tell us if something is going on, so wonderful.
Christa:It's been great working with you. Likewise, you can't learn anything if you don't ask the people who know the horses right yeah that's true, bunny.
Dr Mitch:I think you should address the fiber thing, because all these different causative curly coat mutations have different fiber hair characteristics and Bunny is the expert with that. So I think you should address that. These are ongoing, ongoing things. What is he?
Bunny:talking about. Well, I happen to be a fiber nut. I spin and weave and crochet and all this stuff. So of course I had to try to make yarn out of curly horse hair and in doing so I found that certain curlies had really good fiber hair and some of them had really terrible fiber hair and I wanted to know why. So originally we did fiber testing on fiber diameter and fiber curvature and in the fiber world, the finer the fiber, usually the curlier the hair is, the more curvature, which makes it more spinnable. So in doing this fiber testing we found that KRT25 was definitely different than SP6. Sp6 is not really a good spinning fiber because it's coarser, it's a little bit more wiry.
Bunny:So what we're doing right now with the fiber testing on the unknown genes and there's five unknown genes that I want to get fiber tested, and one of them is Cook out of the Nevada Mustang modified group. The other is the sulfur Mustang curly. The other is unknown gene A, which we really don't know the origin of that gene, and there's an unknown curly pony in the US and an unknown German pony in Germany. So we'd like to test all those just to see what the fiber properties are in fiber diameter and curvature. So far I have Cooke tested and it is different from KRT25 and SP6. So this is telling us it has different properties, which may help tell us what type of gene it is Like. Krt25 is a keratin gene and I believe SP6 is a transcription gene. Is that correct, mitch Transcription factor gene.
Bunny:Yeah, so the hair fiber itself will have different properties. Krt25 has weak spots. It breaks easily. Sp6 is a very strong fiber. It doesn't break easily. So that's a fun research project for me. The other thing that Mitch and I are doing is using etalon ancestry and GIV testing on each origin curly line. This gives us clues into the ancestry of the origin line as well as genomic inbreeding value, and we're finding that the COI percent coefficient of inbreeding by pedigree to be very different from the genomic inbreeding values. So it's another tool that can help breeders avoid inbreeding in origin lines that we were trying to preserve, because each origin line actually started with just a handful of curlies, sometimes just one curly, so to keep the one line separate, you have to really be careful that you're not inbreeding, and we have some problems with inbreeding in some of those origin lines. So the GIV testing is very exciting.
Dr Mitch:Thank you, edelon, again, because so many of our curlies don't have a long pedigree especially the ones that come from Mustang herds. So now we have, thanks to Edelon, we now have a tool that we can utilize to minimize inbreeding on trying to save these very, very small populations. And that's why the testing for genetic disease that etalon does is so very important. When you only have a handful of horses, you can't afford to have a major genetic pathological component in there.
Christa:That's very, very important to us the etalon testing for those we're always surprised by comparisons between the pedigree, genomic inbreeding, the reported value versus the actual. What we're finding with Ancestry is we can not only tell the genomic inbreeding actual by looking at the genes, but we also start to put together pedigrees of horses who don't know where they came from. But we're starting to put together where the herds came from, who's related to whom, and a lost horse is not a lost horse forever, and we think that that brings value as well. At some point we're going to explain in a very clear diagram why pedigree estimates are so far off from the actual genomic, and it just comes down to basic math. The math equation is 50% is inherited from each parent, which isn't the way it actually works, because it's not the same 50%. Otherwise you'd be exactly like your siblings, which?
Dr Mitch:thankfully you're not. That's why there's recombination.
Christa:That's right. There's recombination, there's randomness. Random is good. We like random chaos, all of that. That's really important. The other problem with it is the pedigree estimate doesn't account for where the parents are related further back in the pedigree. So two parents, a sire and a dam, are not genetically unique from one another. So they may pass on 50% of their contribution each. But there's probably a good amount of overlap because somewhere in there there's a great, great grand sire or grand dam that they had in common and so there's going to be overlap, so the inbreeding will not be zero from two strangers.
Christa:It may be 3%, it may be 10. It may be 15. And those are the things we're learning.
Dr Mitch:The things that you're doing today. I'm also on the board of the Sulphur Mustang Registry. Believe me, we're going to be using the GIV and we're going to be testing those horses also. And for any small population, even a big population, the importance of seeing these values of inbreeding, looking at diseases, coming up with new tests, Every bit of knowledge that is gained is good for every horse and every horse owner. That's the important point that we need to make.
Lauren:Well, I would love it if you guys could give us some information on where we should direct our listeners to learn more about ICHO and get involved in what you guys are doing, and, if they're interested in maybe having a curly horse of their own, what steps they might want to take. Who doesn't want a curly horse? Right, I know I'm like how can I get?
Christa:one. I'm kind of upset that I don't have a curly horse now, right.
Bunny:Sure. If you're interested in curly horses, please visit our webpage ichocurlyhorsesorg. The webpage has history, research projects, completed, photos of curly horses, owners and breeder listings. If anyone would like to see a curly horse in person, please contact an owner or breeder and set up an appointment. If a person is allergic to regular horses, let the owner or breeder know beforehand and only visit the curly horses that are isolated from other horse breeds. We welcome all inquiries and donations to our ongoing research projects. We have a ton of information on the webpage and if you have any other questions, you can always contact the office Office at curlyhorsesorg.
Dr Mitch:Our new book that has just been published. Yay, I have this book in the pickup truck to send a copy to you guys. Awesome. And the original book was called Myth and Mystery, published about 20 years ago. This is an update. We hope to do updates every two or three years on this book so that, as new research comes in, we can inform owners and things like this. And this is a 2023 edition, so at some point we need to get some new things going and have some new results that we can add to the 2026 edition. So this is where we're at, and that book can be obtained by contacting Bunny at the registry, and you can also look up. I think it's Lulu Publishing, am I right, bunny?
Bunny:Yeah, we have a direct link on the webpage. It's under ICHO Books and we also have a Curly Horse Breeder book that gives them all kinds of information on how to avoid breeding the wrong coat jeans to the wrong coat jeans and testing. It's very, very full of good information for breeding curly horses.
Christa:I think, if you'll allow us, we'll do a post about that where people can find those, so they can go from our page and see where you guys have all of this good stuff available and I'm going to have to insist that you sign the book you sent to us. I'm just saying oh.
Dr Mitch:I did. It's already signed, it's in the package.
Bunny:I just didn't go into town to take it to the mail today, that'll be a collector piece.
Lauren:We really appreciate you guys taking the time today to chat with us and, you know, have these conversations because they're very important. I do like to keep the floor open at the end if you guys have any other thoughts, questions, comments, anything. We didn't touch on that you wanted to touch on.
Bunny:I'd just like to put a big shout out to Etalon, because you have helped us so much and it has really impacted the owners and breeders of curly horses. They are so on board with testing. I can't tell you how excited I am about that, so it's been just a great partnership. I thank you for everything and I thank you for having us do this podcast. Yeah, we can do more in the future.
Christa:Absolutely Awesome. Let's see what we can find, yeah.
Bunny:Yeah, yeah.
Dr Mitch:Yeah, good, I don't think I could add anything to what money said. I'm again totally grateful to you guys for all that you've done and let's hope we can do more in the future.
Christa:It's more than that, though, what you guys probably don't know probably only Bunny knows this, and maybe me. This was one of the first organizations to give Edlon a shot, and very few people are willing to try something new and even fewer are willing to talk about it and work together. And this group did that and really lifted us up in a place where we would not be are willing to try something new, and even fewer are willing to talk about it and work together.
Holly:And this group did that and really lifted us up in a place where we would not be without them. So a big thank you to you guys for taking that chance.
Bunny:We're very happy that you were there. Yes, it's just been a wonderful working relationship and many more future years together?
Holly:Absolutely. We'll see how many books we can get out in the next few years there you go Right, right.
Lauren:And it's a testament to the Curly Horse owners too as well, for being willing to do this and get involved.
Christa:Yeah, when that Curly shows up in my barn, you all are sworn to secrecy.
Holly:It followed me home.
Christa:You don't know where it came from. I just have to keep it now If my husband finds out what I'm doing.
Lauren:Thank you again to Bunny and Dr Mitch for joining us today and sharing their incredible insights into the world of curly horses and genetic testing. It's truly inspiring to hear about the research and dedication behind preserving such a unique breed. We're fortunate to collaborate with passionate organizations like the International Curly Horse Organization and we're excited to see what the future holds for curly horses. For more information on everything we discussed today, be sure to check out the show notes linked in the episode description. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review. It helps us reach even more listeners like you. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time.
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