Unlocking the Potential of Coliving Spaces with Tom Manwell

Are you ready to redefine your understanding of communal living with an award-winning architect? Today, we chat with Tom Manwell, director of www.wellstudiocoliving.com, who unpacks the intriguing concept of coliving design and its impact on personal wellbeing. Tom's unique insights and experiences unravel the reasons behind society's glorification of individualistic living, despite soaring property prices and increasing isolation. He enlightens us on how coliving provides a fresh perspective for those in their twenties, thirties, and forties, looking for an alternative to the traditional path of property ownership.

As we proceed, we dive deeper into the significance of design in coliving spaces and its profound effect on the well-being of its residents. We tackle everything from color schemes, natural light, use of natural materials, and the inclusion of green spaces, and how these factors can nourish a sense of well-being. Not forgetting the power of social connections and the role of sustainable, low-energy buildings in promoting overall wellbeing. We also delve into potential conflicts that may arise in c-living spaces and discuss effective strategies to address them.

Tom provides us with an in-depth understanding of how coliving spaces can be more sustainable. He explains the impact of location, building structure, and occupants' behavior on sustainability. He affirms how shared resources within coliving spaces can enhance sustainability and foster a virtuous community circle. As we wrap up our insightful discussion, we emphasise the role of community management in coliving spaces and explore successful coliving spaces in global cities like Amsterdam, London, Mallorca, Berlin, and Florence. Join us in this fascinating episode, where coliving, wellbeing, and sustainability converge into a compelling narrative you don't want to miss!

Transcript

Daniel: 0:14

Welcome everyone to ColivingDAO Insights, this is Daniel, your host, and today I'm joined by our special guest of the day, Tom Manwlel. Tom is a UK architect, a director of Well Studio Architecture and Coliving. Cofounder of Conscious Coliving. He's extremely passionate about communities. He's lived in a lot of communities around the world and I'm very, very excited to have you here, Hi Tom.

Tom: 0:40

Hello Dan, it's great to be on the podcast. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Daniel: 0:45

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, and there's a lot of things I'd love to discuss with you, but first of all, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story, like what got you into Coliving in the first place?

Tom: 0:56

Sure so I grew up in London and I studied in London as well and I, through my time of being in my 20s, I lived in a lot of different shared houses in London and around. About the late 20s, I moved into a house in Hélagraph Hill in southeast London which was a big double-fronted Victorian property with about seven or eight bedrooms and a huge kind of kitchen, living, dining space looking out over a garden, and basically I was living with a bunch of students and people that were artists, people that were musicians, people that were creative in all kinds of different ways, and we were all poor. None of us had much money, but we had an amazing time together. We created this life where we lived together. We had dinner together every evening in this big shared kitchen around a big old wooden kitchen table and next to us was the kind of living space and we would have big parties in this space as well. We would, in the summer, open.

Tom: 2:06

It opened onto the garden, so in the summer we would sit in the garden and what I really got from this whole experience of living in this way was just this realization about how what brings true happiness, true well-being, true satisfaction in life is not about having necessarily a lot of material success and possessions, but more about your relationships with other people. And so as I studied and I was studying architecture at the time I became more and more interested as an architect in how we can design spaces which facilitate community and social interaction. And that brought me on to the idea of how do we create co-living buildings which really create true community and create this kind of environment where this kind of way of living which I experienced as a person in my late 20s, where we could help that to happen organically for other people living in co-living buildings?

Daniel: 3:05

That's a beautiful story and it's something that I've realized as well is that actually a lot of people have experiences with communities maybe not as extensive as yours, but a lot of people live maybe in the student houses or flat shares when they're young and maybe they don't have a lot of money, but then they follow the natural, let's say, the society escalator that we have, where the more money people make, the more they advance in their professional career, the more they are somehow driven towards living alone, potentially going from living with family to living with the students, living with maybe co-workers or simply other professionals, then living alone, and so on, and this is considered normal in our society, but at the same time, we notice that it's not necessarily ideal.

Daniel: 3:50

There's a lot of studies about loss of well-being and mental health issues related with loneliness and so on, and I've experienced this myself as well, seeing people living in a co-living. I actually lived six years in a co-living space here in London and I was seeing people move out when they could afford that, or maybe when they just thought, okay, now I'm just advancing on a property ladder, and then they were starting to feel lonely and not happier than they were earlier. So why do you think this is happening in the first place? Why do we live in a society where individualistic living is glorified and considered the pinnacle of the way people are supposed to live? And what can we do to get the benefits, whether it's well-being, whether it's other benefits as well, when it comes to living in the community.

Tom: 4:40

Well, dan, it's a really good question and I think there's a few strands to this kind of situation. So I think one is that we're in a very changing society. So the past generations had a society which was based around the nuclear family. It was based around property ownership and the idea was that essentially, once you left uni and you had a decent job, you'd pretty quickly get married, have kids and live in a house and buy a house, buy a property, and obviously we're in a property-owning democracy.

Tom: 5:13

In the UK the way that most people have managed to enrich themselves and become members of the middle class has been historically through owning a property. So that idea of buying a property is really big in our psyche. But the part of the interesting part is that society has actually changed. So you've had really the kind of disillusionment of the nuclear family and actually a new kind of situation has evolved where there's multiple different kinds of family types, group types and ways people live now in their, say, their 30s, their 40s, their 20s. So essentially society has changed and the model of our living has not changed. So people are still kind of trying to do the old way of living and then realizing it's not working for them because they're buying a property and also another strand to this is that really high property prices in world cities such as London. So when someone is able to afford a property in London, generally unless they're on 100 grand or more a year it's a one-bedroom flat. And so they end up buying this one-bedroom flat, going and moving into this thing and living on their own because they're not yet married, they're still single and it doesn't work for them.

Tom: 6:28

And that's where co-living comes in, because co-living is a real opportunity to fill this gap in the market of this kind of 20, 30, 40-something members of the population that actually they don't want to live like they did when they were students. They don't want to live in a kind of really rough way in an old crumbling down house with really bad landlords and having to sort out all the bills themselves and everything. But they also have more money to spend. But they don't want to live on their own either and buy one bedroom flat and just be isolated. So that's why they are looking for something different and they've realised, as we've discussed already, that actually if you really want well-being, if you really want a feeling of connection, fulfillment in your life, living with others is actually really important, your connection to other people is really important, and so, by combining essentially a much better living offer as well as that human connection aspect together, co-living offers this kind of solution to this dilemma which many younger people are facing in our cities, in our societies.

Daniel: 7:50

Tom, this really resonates and, in fact, one of the main reasons we're building co-living now is really to give people an opportunity to have an alternative.

Daniel: 8:00

So right now there's a lot of people that effectively they are faced with the dilemma do I live on my own and on property which might have financial benefits and I feel like I've advanced in life, or do I live with other people and, okay, if it's a student house or a flat share, maybe the conditions are not ideal or it could be also existing co-living, but typically the majority of co-living spaces they exist on a rental basis, so still, people don't get ownership. So one of our main motivators is really to give people the opportunity to effectively have exposure to the property market in a way that works, even if they don't have maybe a lot of upfront capital they can count on. Or maybe they do have the capital, but they want more flexibility. They don't want to be just tied to one specific property in one location. They might be digital nomads or simply they might want to keep their options open and have something more liquid as well.

Daniel: 8:54

So that's exactly where we are creating co-living now and this model and well-being is a very, very big motivator for us because we really care about well-being and we witnessed in first person as well why living in a community has a massive beneficial effect. So, tom, would you like to talk a little bit more about well-being, the effects on our society of living alone versus living in a community, and how co-living spaces can effectively promote and increase people's well-being by designing the space accordingly, something that some spaces do very well and some don't, right.

Tom: 9:37

Yeah, for sure, dan. So essentially my practice is called Well Studio. So, as you'll know, well-being is in the name of my practice. It's also part of my surname, so nice little double, double name there.

Tom: 9:52

But basically we at Well Studio have studied something called the well-building standard, and the well-building standard is a globally recognized standard based on a lot of research about how you can design buildings which support mental and physical well-being. And actually in my studio as well, we've done a lot of research around what, when we visit, for instance, co-living buildings and we look at the spaces, what actually creates well-being for the occupants. So I think really for us at Well Studio, for me as an architect, well-being encompasses a number of different strands. So the first one would be the physical aspect of the spaces. So obviously, having enough natural light in the space, being warm in the space, having enough space in general, having a space which functions well for practical needs, well, a good acoustic separation between private sleeping areas and shared spaces where people hang out really important, all these practical requirements. And the well-building standard actually talks a lot about those Other things like clean air quality, clean water quality, non-volatile organic compounds. So essentially what that means is furniture and other items in the building that don't give off chemicals as they are sitting within the building and damage the air quality. So physical, then you've got.

Tom: 11:23

The next layer on top of physical is kind of mental well-being. Really, how do people essentially experience the space? What relaxes people in a space? So here we might be looking at things like colour schemes which are harmonious and relaxing, calming natural materials, because when people they touch a piece of natural, wood, for instance, or stone, they immediately have a connection to nature, which facilitates a feeling of well-being. Nature itself, so plants, natural light, views out to green spaces around the building or in courtyards within the building, and also indoor planting. That bio-philic aspect of the space, connection to nature, also adds a lot of well-being.

Tom: 12:18

And then there's mental and then there's social. So Well-being then extends outwards, from yourself in your own body and your own mind, to others around you. And essentially as human beings we're social animals. We evolved in tribes and we use each other as support networks, and so by living together with others there is the opportunity for us to make those support networks with other people around us and find common interests and shared activities to do together when we're having a hard day or we've broken up with our partner or we've lost our job, those times those people can be there to support us.

Tom: 12:58

And so obviously the social side doesn't come without. You know also the potential of conflict between people and there are all kinds of elements to that. But overall, being connected to others, if it's a good connection, it really supports our well-being. And then the final one is kind of like sustainability, because actually, if you think about it, we live on this planet, we have one planet and essentially the environment of the planet, the well-being of the planet, is also going to reflect and either support or not support our own well-being. So by creating buildings which are sustainable and low energy, we actually go some way towards supporting the well-being of the entire planet and that is also, in a much larger way, impacts upon our own well-being. So those are kind of our thoughts about well-being in our practice and definitely we see co-living as a big opportunity to design spaces that support well-being.

Daniel: 14:07

A lot of great pointers there and if anyone out there is planning to build a co-living or simply live in a co-living and is able to share suggestions with the operators or the managers, definitely a lot of good ideas. I mean, I've personally seen co-living spaces that design the areas very well, really promoting community, promoting interactions and so on, and in contrast, I've seen some spaces where there were some clear mistakes, I would say some things that didn't really work. For example, combining a workspace with a chill-out area, and then no one was ever going to chill in the area, because there's people working there who feel disturbed by that and therefore why design that like they're in the first place. Or maybe simply even something as simple as having kitchen counters where people chop their food and having them facing each other or facing opposite. That makes a big difference whether people are going to socialize in the kitchen or not. So I definitely see a lot of value in designing the space accordingly. So those are fantastic pointers and you mentioned quite a few interesting things.

Daniel: 15:14

I'll get back to some of them. Sustainability is certainly a big thing I'd love to talk about. Let's focus on one of the things you mentioned, which is potential conflict. Now as humans.

Daniel: 15:23

There is something called negativity bias A lot of people that maybe don't live in co-living so maybe they have had experiences with flat shares of student houses where they didn't particularly like their neighbors. In fact, an objection that I hear quite commonly in terms of living in a co-living is okay, what if I don't like my neighbors, what if I don't have good relations with them? Certainly, the support network that you mentioned is something fantastic. It can add a lot of value to people. As usual, there are people that see the negative first, so how would you address that? In particular, what could a co-living space creator, what could they do to ensure that conflict is minimized or addressed and resolved if that happens, so that they can create an experience where people are not too worried about that and, in contrast, maximize the support advantages?

Tom: 16:17

Yeah, sure, Another really great question. And I think when people think about living in co-living, often they have sort of bias about co-living, which is, oh, is it some kind of commune where basically it's a bit like communist Russia and I've got to sort of get rid of all my personal possessions, share everything, and then I have to sort of become de-individualized and then it's going to be real nightmare and oh, I don't want that. I need my own space, I need my own facilities, I need my own sanctuary, and actually that's the perception. But the reality is that in co-living you do have your own sanctuary and your own space. You have your own bedroom area where you would have most of the time, your own individual bathroom and you might also have your own individual kitchenette where you can prepare food and do stuff on your own.

Tom: 17:20

So as a co-living designer, as co-living designers at Well Studio, we also believe in that and we believe that you have to find a good balance between shared space and private space and that the private space should be a sanctuary for people. So when they go back to their room they need to feel really safe in their own space, that they can retire there, they can relax there because you know they might come back after and I've experienced this in my own co-living experiences. I've come back before after a really long day into the co-living space and I'm really tired and I just want to go and lie down in my own room, but there's like a bunch of people there having dinner all together and like hey, Tom, you know, like come and get involved, and I'm just torn because actually what I need is is to go, and actually I need to go and recharge and we're all a mixture between introverted and extroverted. So when we design co-living spaces, yes, we try to make sure that there's that private space for people to recharge and for the introverted side of people, and then there's also shared spaces where people can come together. And I think, if you find the right balance, then that you're going a long way towards creating a successful community.

Tom: 18:33

Obviously, apart from the design of spaces and doing these things to design a space well, there's also how you onboard people, how you find people to live in the co-living space and how you manage that so that people, for instance the living co-living, that they learn conflict resolution methods like nonviolent communication. Or, for instance, I practice mindfulness and there's something in the mindfulness practice called beginning anew when you've kind of had a falling out with somebody. So you know, there's a lot of different tools that people can learn and the selection of who lives in the space and how and who shares co-living with each other is also, I think, an endless.

Daniel: 19:22

Tom, these are all very, very good points and I've experienced many of them myself as well. I've seen some co-living spaces that had a shell out area just close to the entrance where people could really have the option and say, okay, do I want to, as soon as I come back home, go and join my neighbors and have some fun with them and chill and chat and so on, or do I feel like just going to my room or going to some quieter area and be by myself and having this choice, having this option, is critical. So having an environment that is designed like that and a community culture that is also designed around that to allowing people to have this individual choice of whether in any particular moment they feel like being sociable or not it's really making a massive difference because, just like you say, some people are more extroverted, some people are introverted, and there'll be people that one day they feel one way, one way, they feel the other way. So it's beautiful when we can really give the choice. And you mentioned briefly the concept of a selection of individuals as well.

Daniel: 20:28

I'm a firm believer of a themed co-living spaces or spaces where people have something in common that goes beyond just a geographical proximity. I see a lot of spaces designed for digital nomads, for example. That's great. What else can there be there? I mean being digital nomad again, it's one thing people have in common. It's certainly not guaranteed that people will get along well. I've seen spaces where the target was a little bit more niche, a little bit more specific or, at the very least, when people had maybe not necessarily a professional commonality, but they might have strong values. I've seen co-living spaces designed around people that are a little bit more conscious about certain topics, certain things, and sharing values, sharing principles extremely important in preventing conflicts and adding even more value when it comes to the support network that is created as well. So very, very good points there.

Daniel: 21:26

And let's get back to sustainability, because you mentioned that and it's something that, in Co-LivingDow, is embedded in the fabric of what we're creating. We're incorporated as a fair shares commons company. What this means, among other things, is that sustainability is a big element. In fact, we can even consider nature as a stakeholder. I mean, we obviously really care about well-being of the people, but the planet also is one of our priorities as well. So how can co-living spaces can be more sustainable? We like to think in terms of regeneration as well. So, rather than just minimize the impact, how can we actually create a positive impact on nature? So what can be done in practice, and is there any mindset shift that is needed on a global scale to make that happen?

Tom: 22:20

Yeah, great points. Great question, Dan, I mean, I think, on sustainability, when we're designing co-living, there's, I think there's three different elements to that as far as we see it. So one is, I think, where designing a co-living building, finding a co-living building that is in a location which is connected to public transport, that has good accessibility for people, so people can live in that space and they don't need to have a car necessarily, they can cycle, they can use public transport and they may be close to other local amenities shops, restaurants, bars, cafes, places to go. So that you know, there's that idea of the 30 minute city. You know, designing co-living with a kind of 30 minute city idea in mind Already, you're creating something that's hopefully quite sustainable offer.

Tom: 23:20

Then there's the actual building itself and designing the building so that both the construction and the operation of the building can be carried out sustainably. So here we would be looking at as designers, at looking at the structure of the building, the materials used in the building, to look at how their carbon cradle, to grave carbon footprint, and looking at essentially how we can keep that as low as possible in terms of the carbon that's used in the construction of the building. So things like timber, frame construction, clt really good to look at if they can be used to create buildings that use less carbon. Other, all the internal elements of the building. Where are they? You know, thinking about where they're sourced from, that it's not from China or thousands of miles away, but that they're kind of more locally sourced, thereby reducing the carbon footprint of those materials. So, thinking about all these things, and also then how the building is operated in terms of the amount of energy it uses. So looking at how it can be constructed to be low energy, with well insulated walls, well insulated windows, well insulated roof and floor structures. Then you can supplement that with things like solar panels that generate electricity, air source heat pumps, ground source heat pumps and even you know, if you've got the ability for it wind power, for instance. Looking at other kinds of power generation features to the building and putting these two together so that you can create a building that it uses a lot less energy than, or it uses as little energy as it needs to, and then that energy that it does require generating some of that on site, then you can really get something that's quite low energy. And then the final aspect of sustainability would be how occupants are using the building.

Tom: 25:31

And obviously co-living has a real advantage because essentially it's an innately sustainable way of living because you're sharing more facilities.

Tom: 25:41

So in co-living, rather than every person having their own individual washing machine, for instance, you might have a shared laundry in the building where you have a number of larger industrial-sized washing machines that are far more efficient washing per wash and you need less of them, and so the individual energy use per person to do their laundry is a lot reduced.

Tom: 26:05

And things like that shared laundry spaces, shared kitchen spaces, other spaces which are sharing appliances in general all of these things can reduce individual carbon footprints within the building as well as actually providing opportunities for social interaction and promoting the formation of community. So we see that as quite a good virtuous circle to get into with co-living. And then obviously, on top of that, you want to encourage people within the building to live their lives in using less energy, switching the lights off, making sure that they're aware of how much heating and lighting is costing, and recycling their waste and reducing their own carbon footprints in those ways. But I think if you bring all these things together, you actually end up with potentially a really, really sustainable form of living, because you're also living at higher densities than you would if you're living in other kinds of living accommodation, because you've got smaller bedrooms, more people per area than other kinds of development. So it's super sustainable and it's also, you know, a lot of this sustainability actually adds to the community aspect.

Daniel: 27:27

Absolutely. I definitely see how sustainability can really be implemented to a great extent by taking advantage, first of all, of the sharing economy, of the co-living spaces. It's great. It's great to really share things that we don't need to use that much, and I've heard people I don't want to share my washing machine, I don't want to share this, I don't want to share that. At the end of the day, it's actually a very simple thing to do and there's obviously hygiene standards that can be met. It's even easier to sterilize or clean the communal area. So communal machinery when needed. And in the end, who needs a washing machine more than a couple of times a week? Right, and so it's an advantage, because then it means we can have a more powerful washing machine that can wash even better and so on, and be more sustainable as well, intrinsically. So, certainly, the advantages of living together in a space that is more efficient, more optimized, is undeniable from a sustainability point of view.

Daniel: 28:22

And yes, you mentioned quite a few great tips when it comes to what could be installed, whether it's solar panel, utilizing wind power and so on. So great to hear all this idea. Certainly, a co-living dowry are placing special importance on all this because we really want to make sure that the planet is considered in this decision. Something historically, when it comes to building property, hasn't necessarily happened. So this is part of the shift that we really want to bring in, and you mentioned a lot of great things about co-living spaces. Some might have implemented those things, some maybe not yet. What are some spaces? And it's up to you where you want to mention specific spaces or just answer this more in general. What are some spaces that have inspired you? Or whether because of the way that we're built when it comes to well-being, sustainability or something else we have discussed?

Tom: 29:16

Yeah, Sure, yeah, great question, dan, and we at Conscious Co-Living and Well Studio over the last five years have visited a lot of co-living buildings around the world and built out something which we call the Co-Living Library, which is an online resource of floor plans, of photographs, of analysis of co-living buildings which we visited. And there are so many out there and I think it's really great. It's such a diverse asset class and that's really a good thing. If the particular ones that I personally love, zoku in Amsterdam. It's an amazing redevelopment of an old office building in Amsterdam to create Co-Living. There are a number of amazing features to it. One is that all the community spaces are on the roof in these glass hexagonal kind of grid pods, and it's a beautiful. They've created this amazing kind of combination of kitchen, dining, chill-out spaces, a shop up there, spaces like music studios, co-working, and you go up there and it's all. You're on the top of this beautiful building in the middle of Amsterdam, views all over Amsterdam. It's like entering heaven and I really love the design of that. And then below that there are these mezzanine bedrooms, essentially, where they've used quite a large floor-to-ceiling height, so quite high rooms, to put in mezzanine beds, almost like bunk beds which you can sleep on, but a really nicely designed so you feel kind of not at all like being a student and then integrated underneath those beds kind of storage and bathroom elements and kitchen elements. So very clever use of the space and the design to create these really beautiful kind of room sanctuaries which people can be in. So that's one of my favourites.

Tom: 31:15

In London itself I've visited so many but a few that stand out. Mason and Fifth in Bermondsey are really great. It's about 30 bedrooms, small kind of boutique co-living but designed to meet the well-building standard, has a really lovely basement community space with a kitchen area where they do talks and they do events, and also the rooms are really cool Again with natural materials, really nice little kitchenettes and compact on-suite bathrooms that work really well. Also further afield we're currently working with Palmer Co-Living, based in Mallorca, who are opening villas around Spain. They have some really nice digital nomad co-living where you've got that kind of mix of almost being on holiday and having your own bedroom and co-working space.

Tom: 32:07

Barley's got some great ones, like Outside in Barley, berlin, happy Pigeons really lovely little one, coconut, which is kind of more like a rural co-living outside Berlin. Student Hotel is a great concept Student Hotel in Amsterdam. Also there's one in Florence, really cool like mixing of students and young professionals together. So yeah, beautiful buildings all around the world, and what we do is we essentially take inspiration from the best that we find and then try and integrate some of the best practice examples and features into our designs for co-living spaces.

Daniel: 32:49

Awesome. It's great to have quite a few examples to learn from, take inspiration from and then potentially implement in different places to make sure that something that works well, something that the community loves, and maybe it's efficient, sustainable why not repeat that and bring that to life in other places as well? Talking about community, we touched upon a few elements of it, but I also know that many co-living spaces they actually thought we had very good intention and then gradually they focused a little bit more on things like convenience and other things and maybe they neglected the community and that's where they started declining in quality and the quality of living for the people there as well. So what can you say about the importance of managing the community and make sure that they have enough space and a voice that can be heard as well when it comes to deciding what to do with the space and the community itself?

Tom: 33:49

Yeah, sure, this is a really good question because it brings together a number of different challenges I think that co-living developers and operators face. So co-living developers and operators, they essentially they're a business, so they want to make a profit and that's nothing wrong with that, that's completely fine. But what they can end up doing is reducing the kind of spec of the spaces and the kind of facilitation aspect of the community side and unfortunately that can lead to spaces which essentially have the badge of co-living and the branding of co-living but actually in reality don't really facilitate community very well. And it's not to say that you need lots and lots of community space. By the way, you don't need huge amounts of community space to create really great communities. In fact, having too much community space can sometimes be a problem because you end up with these empty kind of spaces and so actually less is more. But it's really important to put the community spaces in the right location within the building that is aligned with the natural movement flows of people through the building so they actually naturally are able to use those spaces without having to go out of their way. We've seen quite a few examples from our visits, some bad examples of that not being done very well.

Tom: 35:13

Also, thinking about kitchen designs, like you were saying earlier on creating nice spaces basically that attract people to use them. All of these things help for community and they don't have to cost a lot more for the operator. But I think basically, as I've said, I think the co-living world now is so diverse and there is room for all kinds of different co-living products on the market. Obviously, affordability is another angle and creating spaces which are affordable is also important. So the way we see it really is you want to develop a co-living model which does create good facilities and good community.

Tom: 35:57

It doesn't have to cost a lot. It's more about good design, it's more about thinking through these things and it's more about the operational side. I think convenience is an attraction for people, but there is definitely something to be said for giving people more responsibility in terms of actually taking the initiative to create community in their spaces. So when people do that in the right way, when co-living operators do that in the right way, I think it can work really well and it can actually reduce the cost on the operator side as well as increasing the buy-in and the kind of involvement of the residents. There's a big opportunity there, I think, to do that kind of thing, and combining that with some good design can really create the right results. That's what we really support at Well Studio.

Daniel: 36:54

You made a great point there as an architect, sometimes too much communal space can actually backfire. Maybe the community can be diluted if there's so much space and then they interact less, or simply it's poorly designed so it doesn't serve the purpose that it could, and therefore sometimes it's actually even more cost efficient for the co-living space itself and the operator to have less space but designed in a better way, more functional way, which is why we definitely realize the importance of design, and the earlier a co-living space operator makes these good design decisions, the better it is, the more the benefit for me. So certainly a good idea to consult design experts rather than just doing it without a clue and then having to face the consequences when it comes to the actual utilization of the space, as well as, in general, just the management of community and so on. Something that we're introducing in Coliving DAO is the fact that the community finally has a voice that can be heard and we actually go one step beyond simple feedback collection. We have incorporated at company corporation level, legal rights for the community as well. So not only is the community also part owner of the space, but also they have legally recognized voting rights.

Daniel: 38:18

So what's your idea in terms of having communities where people have a voice that has to be heard, and in fact, it's not just the fact that whatever they say counts, but also the fact that by design, we don't foresee an adversarial relationship between landlords and tenants, so to speak, so between the owners of the real estate they may have their own agenda and the community members who want to live there and have community prosper, and so on. We designed everything to ensure alignment in incentives between them and therefore see everyone prosper together. So what do you think about this type of design and how could this impact the experience of both the community members and everyone else who's involved in the operations of the coliving space?

Tom: 39:14

Sure, dan, and firstly, thanks for supporting good design in co-living. It's music to our ears and it's what we do day in, day out, so it's great to hear you say that. Yeah, in terms of the ColivingDAO model, we really love the whole idea of co-living Dow and what you're up to with, essentially a sort of shared ownership model of co-living. And this is a massive, massive opportunity, because if you get people that are really buying into the co-living building, the brand through actually being part owners, then they're going to be a lot more engaged in the community and they're going to give more time and resources to really making that work, not just for themselves but for others involved. And so this is a it's going to I mean feeding into the design of the space, for instance, I think what the real opportunity there is that you can start getting into co-design to some degree and also adaptable spaces that can be adapted over time by the residents of the building to really make sure that, for instance, they're getting the right facilities that they really want, that they, that they can use those facilities in the ways that they want and you know that this building is really going to work for them. And then you know on the other side of things, with how they self-organise. Again, I just think it's going to be a virtuous circle, because they're going to be a lot more interested in the success of the building and the brand and everything, so they're going to put more effort there into getting involved in the organisation of things going on.

Tom: 41:01

Yeah, and then the other thing that's really great about it is because people are looking for an investment in their life. You know, whether it would be buying a house or something else, people are looking to put their money somewhere where which is aligned with their values and which is also going to give them a return, essentially so as investing in ColivingDAO. It's a really great kind of opportunity for these kinds of people to not only benefit from living in the building but also benefit from having an investment which hopefully accumulates in value over time, and so they yeah, I mean basically, in that sense, it makes a lot of sense too. So it's a genius idea and we're really loving looking forward to working with ColivingDAO more in the future to see how we can kind of take a lot of this financial model side and ownership side and then actually translate that into designing buildings and spaces which really work for the residents and carry forward that kind of collective ownership sort of model which is just so inspiring.

Daniel: 42:15

Appreciate your words, tom, and yes, we're all very excited about bringing this to life. In fact, yes, just like you say, not only do people have the ability to put their money where the values and principles are, no longer be tied to just one particular unit in one place and maybe they no longer want to live there and it's hard to liquidate, and so on but having the ability to take advantage of fractionalization and just being able to be owners, but, on top of that, being able to really have a voice in the community they live as well, or multiple communities as well. So this is really the vision we're looking to bring to life and, tom, this conversation is extremely insightful. Really great to be with you here. I feel like we could be here forever, which is before we wrap up, because unfortunately, we will have to do any final thoughts or anything in particular you'd love to share.

Tom: 43:12

Sure thanks, Dan. I mean it's been really great coming on the podcast and talking about all these aspects of co-living design. If anyone's listening and they want to find out more about what we do at Well Studio Architecture and Co-living, please visit our website and get in touch with us. We're always looking yeah, the biggest thing we're working on at the moment just to put it out there to the audience is office to co-living conversions. So with the change in the nature of work after the pandemic to a hybrid working model, there's this huge opportunity out there because a lot of office space is becoming vacant, essentially, especially in large cities and financial centres like London, like Canary Wharf, and there's a great opportunity to then look at co-living conversions. And so we're doing a webinar. We're putting together a webinar at the moment which we're going to be launching in January 2024, around how to convert an office building into co-living. Please do watch our space for further news on this.

Daniel: 44:21

And that's awesome, because here I can really see how, on one hand, we can utilize existing structures, existing buildings, opposed to having to build things from scratch, which can have an impact on the footprint but at the same time, if the conversion, the repurposing or retrofitting, so to speak, is done effectively, we might still get the benefits of an efficient building. Because that's usually a dilemma Do I use an existing building so I don't make more impact by building a new one, but then it's not going to be as efficient. So I'm sure, tom, with your architectural wizardry, you'll have some ideas to really maximise efficiency while minimising the upfront cost, both from a financial point of view and in terms of sustainability. So definitely a space to watch. So, tom's been great to have you here on the podcast. Thank you so much for being here, and everyone else who's listening great to have you here as well. We'll be back with more next week, so stay tuned, subscribe to this podcast if you haven't yet, and see you next week.

Tom: 45:30

Thank you, dan, it's been a pleasure.