Can family dynamics thrive within ministry, or do they invite spiritual abuse? Join us as we explore this intricate balance, referencing Jesus' interactions in Mark 3:31-35 and offering insights into maintaining harmony and clarity in roles. We'll dig into practical stories like Miriam and Aaron's relationship with Moses to uncover strategies for navigating these complex dynamics effectively.
We then tackle the sensitive issue of pastors publicly criticizing their peers, weighing the spiritual authority and appropriateness of such actions. Drawing lessons from Galatians 6, we discuss the importance of humility and gentleness while emphasizing the need for accountability and redemption. We'll reflect on real-life examples and biblical mandates to restore those who have erred with love and compassion.
Finally, we distinguish between conviction and judgment, illustrating how correction should be approached with love and meekness. From addressing public sins to maintaining unity within the church, we underscore the need for redemptive correction and mutual respect. Tune in to gain valuable insights into balancing ministry obligations with family relationships, understanding the broader implications of spiritual authority, and embracing love and redemption within the Christian community.
Can family dynamics thrive within ministry, or do they invite spiritual abuse? Join us as we explore this intricate balance, referencing Jesus' interactions in Mark 3:31-35 and offering insights into maintaining harmony and clarity in roles. We'll dig into practical stories like Miriam and Aaron's relationship with Moses to uncover strategies for navigating these complex dynamics effectively.
We then tackle the sensitive issue of pastors publicly criticizing their peers, weighing the spiritual authority and appropriateness of such actions. Drawing lessons from Galatians 6, we discuss the importance of humility and gentleness while emphasizing the need for accountability and redemption. We'll reflect on real-life examples and biblical mandates to restore those who have erred with love and compassion.
Finally, we distinguish between conviction and judgment, illustrating how correction should be approached with love and meekness. From addressing public sins to maintaining unity within the church, we underscore the need for redemptive correction and mutual respect. Tune in to gain valuable insights into balancing ministry obligations with family relationships, understanding the broader implications of spiritual authority, and embracing love and redemption within the Christian community.
Well, I'm so excited that you've tuned in. Listen, I've got some great stuff to get into Part three of spiritual authority versus spiritual abuse. We're going to talk about family and the dynamics of ministry and how you intertwine that with spiritual authority and still be able to keep a good, healthy family relationship. I'm also going to be talking about pastors going on the media, talking about other pastors. What should we do? Saw a situation not too long ago about a guy on a stripper pole and another pastor calls this pastor out and there's a whole big to-do about it. Listen, we've got a lot coming up. I am so excited, I am so glad that you tuned in. Keep it locked, ladies and gentlemen, because Dimension starts right now. Welcome, welcome, welcome to another edition of Dimensions. I'm so excited that you tuned in. I'm J Anthony Gilbert and, listen, I am so glad you are here Now.
Speaker 1:First and foremost, as we always do, I need you to take a minute right now, just take a moment, right where you are, and I need you to like, subscribe, follow, share, do all the things y'all normally do, and I'm coming to you this evening it's seven o'clock and whenever it is that you're watching this, take a minute and just like subscribe, follow, share, let somebody know this is spiritual authority. Share. Let somebody know this is spiritual authority, something that's really real. A lot of people have questions about it and I want to speak to you about that today. Dealing with the family dynamic and then also just other pastors calling other pastors out, you know you got spiritual authority. Does that operate for pastors as well as people that are in the pews? We're going to talk about that as well. So that's important. Now listen, even though we're doing this on a video, you know, I want you to know we do have a podcast, so listen. If you have never downloaded the podcast, take a minute. I think we're on every platform that you can possibly get a podcast. Go there and download it and then subscribe to it, and every time that I finished going live, it uploads right to. You'll be able to catch the latest, greatest edition of that and you know what's great about it. You can listen to it in your car when you're working out. If you do a float spa, if you don't know about a float spa, you need to check it out. Float spas are off the chain. You want to sit in there and listen and get a little edumacation. We've got all that and more coming to you.
Speaker 1:So I'm excited about the time that I'm going to have with you all today and just discussing some of the things that I feel are pertinent and one of the things we just want to jump right into it, because dealing with family in ministry there's a lot of. In my almost 30 years of ministry there have been a lot of people that have not been able to do the family dynamic and I am blessed to have a lot of family in my ministry and I say that because it is a blessing to be able to have that. But it's also very difficult and I may bring some family on later on. There's another family. You've heard me mention the name Bishop Mark Filkey. His family is outstanding. It's a hard dynamic because there's family and then there's ministry. A lot of people just have a rough time being able to deal with that. So I might bring some other families on later on in future podcasts to be able to talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:And I've been blessed to have my brothers with me. My one brother he is in charge of our discipleship ministry, a discipleship pastor. My sister-in-law she is in charge of a lot of our admin stuff. My wife, she does ministry, she can do pretty much anything. My other brother, he is our praise and worship pastor. My father-in-law and mother-in-law they're involved in serving in the ministry. So I have a lot and we have a whole lot of other leadership as well. But my family's very gifted and they could go to any church and operate in a leadership role and capacity. So I'm honored to have that.
Speaker 1:And sometimes what happens when families come in, there has to be a differentiation between family and work, and when you're in the kingdom of God, it's work, it's a business, and a lot of people don't look at it like that. And so what happens is we bring the family dynamic into the church and the church dynamic into the family, the family dynamic into the church and the church dynamic into the family. And while the kingdom of God needs to be applied in both, there is a hierarchy in the body of Christ and that has to be followed, and so there are some things that you're going to have to do in order to do that, and I'm going to start right off with a scripture and I want you to go with me, if you would, to Mark chapter number three, verse number 31. Mark, chapter three, verse number 31.
Speaker 1:And I love this story here because it's really really outstanding about and it gives us a great understanding of how it ought to be in regards to ministry. And I love this story here because it's the story of Jesus he's in ministering and his mother and his brother's desire to see him. And look at this story here because the story of Jesus he's in ministering and his mother's and his mother and his brother's desire to see him. And look at this here. It says in verse 31 to 35, then his brothers and his mother came and standing outside. They sent to him calling, so they were outside. Now look at this here. This is very profound. You have Jesus inside doing ministry. Mothers and brothers are standing outside calling to him ministry. Mothers and brothers are standing outside calling to him and a multitude was sitting around him and they said look, your mother and your brothers are outside seeking you.
Speaker 1:But he answered now, this is really, really, this is where family and ministry can get a little sticky at times and this is where Jesus draws the line and shows us how it ought to be. But he answered and said who is my mother or my brothers? He looked around in a circle at those who sat about him and said here are my mother, my brothers, for whoever does the will of God is my brother and my sister and my mother. Now, he was not discharging or discrediting, rather, that family and all that is not important or that he doesn't have any mothers or brothers anymore. I believe what was happening there is that his mother and his brothers were saying hey, listen, we know you're Jesus the Messiah, but we need to talk with you.
Speaker 1:And he was a grown man doing kingdom business. So his mother brought her authority as a mom and the dynamics of family into his ministry at the time and he was letting them know that when we are at home, I am your son, I will honor you and serve you and do all the things that a son would normally do. But when I am in the kingdom, when I'm operating in my gift and in my call, you're not allowed to bring mother into that. And that dynamic can be very difficult for a lot of people, because what can happen if you're a son and you're the lead pastor and you have your mom in there? Of course you're still going to honor your mom and you're still going to do all the things, but that doesn't mean she gets to mother you within the church and, matter of fact, there may even be times where the son, as the pastor, may have to say something to the mom to make an adjustment or change. It can even be an area of correction and that's why a lot of times I'm going to help somebody real quickly here.
Speaker 1:I tell people all the time if I'm going to have my friends, if I'm going to have family in my church, the first thing we are going to do is we are going to sit down and have a conversation, because the question has to be is can I pastor you? Can we separate? Do I? And I'm going to be perfectly blunt when I say this can I get all up in your grill when you invite me to your barbecue? I'm not going to disrespect you, I'm not going to dishonor you, I'm not going to abuse my authority within the church, but if there's something I need to correct, if there's something I need to say to you, if there's an area of pastoring and I want to look at it like this If I wasn't your friend, if I wasn't your brother, if I wasn't your husband, if I wasn't this, that or any type of role family member, excuse me, or any such thing. What would you expect me to say to you? And if I can't have that role with you, it's better for us to preserve the relationship a friend, family or whatever it might be and you find a pastor, and then we can just have Thanksgiving dinner together, we can have Christmas together, we'll just be buddies. That's fine.
Speaker 1:But if I'm going to be your pastor, there has to be a conversation early and I will let them know that there may be times I need to come to you, maybe things I need to correct, maybe things God may give to you, give me for you that to give to you, and if you can't allow me to address that and to pastor you, then we need to no longer have the pastoral relationship and let's preserve that. Now, if you remember, anytime a relationship comes into your life, you want to preserve the nature of the relationship, which leads me back to another point, why I think it's so important that pastors preserve the title of pastor. You should not call your pastor by their first name. You should not tell them that, even if it's your son or your daughter, when you are in the kingdom it's pastor. If it's your brother or sister, it's pastor. It preserves the nature of the relationship and you don't become too familiar. And if you can't address somebody and if you can't speak into their life as a pastor and you have a family or friend, dynamic relationship and they don't give you that room, it's better not to go there.
Speaker 1:And what Jesus was doing, he was separating the two. There is a time for family and when you get home, I'm sure he was always the Messiah, but he took his hat off and he did what he did as a son. But then when he came into the ministry world, when he was doing that, he, when his mother and brother tried to cross that line, he corrected them and said no, no, no, who's my father and my mother and my brother and my sister? Who he that doeth the will of God? So he was letting them know I'm your son, but this is not a son role right now. This is my call, this is who I am as a pastor, even when you're married. My wife and I you know she is a pastor in our church but I'm the lead pastor, so she can't, I can't allow her to bring wife into a pastor role and I also can't use pastor when she's my wife. There's two different things there and I need to honor her in both of those and she needs to honor me in both of those. So a lot of pastors can't get along, because sometimes you even have to have somebody that ministers to your wife or ministers to your family. If they're in the church, you have other people that can come in there if you don't have that voice, because they're going to need someone to pastor them, and sometimes having a pastor means you need to have it, means having a mentor in your life as well. So if you can't fulfill that role for your wife, if you can't fulfill that role for your wife, if you can't fulfill that role for your husband, if you can't fulfill that role with your family or whoever it might be, you need to find somebody that can shepherd them, and so that's the thing. There is a complete difference and you have to have clear cut conversations on those things in regards to how you're going to shepherd family, spouse, whomever it might be. You're going to find yourself hitting one another and exploding, and so it doesn't mean it can't happen. It doesn't mean it can't happen. I mean it can be either one. Sometimes people can make it work. Sometimes people can't. You got to find out what works for you, but you need to be able to do both. There's a time for family and there's a time for business kingdom business. So kingdom business is kingdom business. We don't bring family titles into that. Now, other people may work on it differently. It doesn't mean we don't know each other as that. But if my brother, who is a worship pastor, he can't come in and tell my other brother or tell my wife how they do it just because we're family. That's not your role. So you have to clearly define the roles, you have to clearly define the relationships, you have to clearly define the expectation and then hold each other accountable to be able to do that. And that's what Jesus was doing there. He was saying who's my mother, who's my brother, who? But he that do it the will of God. I think that's a phenomenal passage of scripture that he was separating the two there, and if you don't do that, you're going to have problems.
Speaker 1:One of the things as a pastor, though, I can't bring pastor into my family. So what do I mean by that? If we're home having dinner, and it's that and the other, and they don't have to go around and say he's pastor this. Now my family some of them will call me pastor even when we're at home. I've asked them. I said you don't have to do any of that. They just said that's something that they wanted to do. That's fine with me, but I don't bring that title home. I don't bring that title home. I don't operate as a pastor in family. I don't operate as a pastor in those moments and you'll have to define what that looks like. And sometimes people will do that. It's like well, they're a pastor all the time. It doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1:I'm not pastoring my family and my brothers per se. When we're at home having Thanksgiving dinner, I'm there to serve just like anybody else. I'm there to be a blessing, just like anybody else. I'm just Jay at home. You know my job is my job. My kingdom business is my kingdom business. But family is family. So you have to kind of separate the two of those. So I've never abused that or going into church. You know, because they're my family, that I use that as a way to kind of gain power or anything like that. I'm there to serve them, but there are times that I have to make decisions and things on that line, and maybe some of them don't even agree, but I still got to make the decisions that God has called me to make, and they have to give me the room to do that.
Speaker 1:So that's why those conversations are so important. You have to have those up front. If I had a friend that said, hey, I'm going to come and be in your church, and I'd say, great A friend, great a friend that before I was pastoring I grew up with them. If they come to my church, we're going to sit down and have a lunch together. Why? Because can I pastor you. Some people might leave. Oh, that's my friend, so I can do that. Well then, what happens when I have to bring something to you that maybe you don't want to hear, or maybe there's something that I need to address, or whatever it might be, or maybe there's something you don't agree with. Then, all of a sudden, you feel you can put your hands on what I'm trying to do. And now we're getting into this power struggle. I don't want to have it. So I've learned have the discussions early.
Speaker 1:Even if you're doing a business and you're bringing family in with it, you've got to separate. Okay, when we're here at work. This is how we operate. When we're not at work, this is how we operate. So you've got to both be in agreement and you've got to respect the family line, the friend line, and leave that for there. And then the ministry line is the ministry. And that is a very hard thing to do. It's very delicate, it can get ugly really quick, it can get sticky really quick and sometimes you have to have those hard conversations with one another. So it's important that you understand that.
Speaker 1:And then if you're a person that's under a family member in ministry, you have to respect them as such. And that goes back. Remember the story with Miriam and Aaron. And let's see here in Numbers, chapter 12, we talked about that and how she felt. Because she was his sister, she could come in and say what she wanted to say to Moses and God took that personal.
Speaker 1:And so it's important that you understand that just because you're a family, you can't bring that over into the church. You just can't do that and sometimes it can work and sometimes it can't. You know, we've had situations in our family where we got close to where are we going to be able to make this work or are we not? You know, and it's in a lot of different capacities. You know, I've got my wife with my brothers, I've got in-laws and with me, and then also you got my wife with her parents that are in our church and she's a pastor and they're doing their thing. So I mean there's a lot of things that go along with that.
Speaker 1:So you have to have conversation. There has to be a respect that is given to family, for family and church is church. And if you can't turn off and say, okay, that's my brother, my sister, whoever it is, and turn that off and allow them to lead you or be led by them or a combination of the both, depending on what position you hold, it's better not to even go into that relationship because you're going to have issue and family needs to be pastored. It's not like they don't get to be pastored because they're in family. No, you still need to be pastored. I still have to be able to address things leadership, hierarchy, all of that it all needs to happen. And if you can't do that, go find a church where you can be pastor and then we can just still have Thanksgiving dinner together. We'll get together for Christmas and birthdays and all that good stuff and preserve the nature of that relationship.
Speaker 1:So it can be very hard and it doesn't always mean it's always going to work, but this is what we have done in our family and it's helped us, and we've had our roadblocks and our stumbling blocks and different things that we've thank God, so far we've been able to turn into stepping stone. There have been situations, though, where we've hit where we were wondering are we going to be able to get beyond family and ministry and all that? And God, by his grace, so far has blessed us to be able to do so. So it's very, very important that we learn that just because we're family doesn't mean we can become familiar with one another, and just because you are a pastor or a minister, a family, you don't have that authority to tell them what to do in every area of their life. You need to respect them, and there's a delicate line as far as how you address your family. Even when you're correcting, it could be my father-in-law, who's my wife's father or mother. If I have to share something with them, how I address them, I have to determine the right language, and things like that. It doesn't mean I can't say it, but it means I have to determine the right language, and so it's kind of like how we talked about with Timothy and Paul was writing to him about addressing the older men as brothers and making sure that or I'm sorry as fathers and the younger men as brothers. So we exhort them. We don't, when you're a younger person in ministry, you don't go and just run your mouth at them and tell them where to go and to sit down, and even when they're your age, it says exhort them as a brother. So you know, it's all about honor. Ladies and gentlemen, that's the big key learning how to honor the different men or women that are in your life. It is just so, so, very important. So I wanted to take just a little bit of time with that and mention that there. So I think some of it I've kind of covered in previous ones.
Speaker 1:In regards to, you have to define the relationship early. You have to do that, and that's why you don't call your pastor by his first name, even if it's family. If family is in ministry, you honor their titles in the church. It's just as simple. And when you don't, you should be willing to be corrected by that and be willing to be held accountable to that because those titles are important. It preserves the nature of the relationship and if someone's not humble enough or able to bring themselves low enough to submit to another person in ministry, maybe that ministry isn't for them. So it's important that we identify that and we recognize that.
Speaker 1:Now, another thing I want to transition to is pastors calling out other pastors in ministry. Oh man, you know, this is the thing. There was one thing that was addressed oh, my goodness, I should have gotten the name of the person. Let's see the pastor that was that called out the one pastor for the stripping pole that they had, and I think that's just really unfortunate that it happened the way that it did. And you know it's really no joke. Matter of fact, there we go. It was Mark Driscoll, if you remember that situation there. There was a male performer back in the day that I guess now was repentant, but did this little stripper pole thing came out with his shirt off and Mark Driscoll goes back, seeks the Lord, comes back and then corrects that in public. You know that's one thing in particular. Public. You know that's one thing in particular.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of pastors getting on social media rebuking other pastors, condemning them, judging them all this type of thing. Well, what's the appropriate way to look at that, you know, and that's how I started all this off. I mean, you see a lot of different names in the news right now and this is not and I can share it before I'm never one that's gonna get on here and start ousting different pastors and ministries, but Bishop Jakes has had some things going on. Pastor Robert Morris has currently stepped down, dr Tony Evans stepped down, pastor Rob Parsi had a situation, some allegations that came up. There's all these things that happen. I mean, you go on and on, and the only thing different between them and us is the fact that we have less of a camera on us. Everybody has different levels, but they're on a national and world, international level to where, when something goes wrong with them, it goes viral.
Speaker 1:So there's pros to having that type of platform, and then there can be cons if we make errors in our world. So what do we do and how do we honor those pastors but yet still call a spade a spade. And what happens when pastors call? I saw one pastor out recently who was just calling everybody out. I mean, he's calling them and telling them yeah, you can show up at my church we're cocked lock and ready to rock and all these types of things. I'm like man. I mean this is not the spirit of love. Calling people devils, and I mean name calling and all those types of things. That's not. You know, there's nothing in scripture that says we need to deal with one another like that.
Speaker 1:I want to go to Galatians real quickly, chapter one, I'm sorry. Galatians, chapter six, real quickly here. I want you to take a look at this. It says Brethren, if any man is overtaken in a trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another's burdens and fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work and then you will have rejoicing in himself alone and not another, for everyone shall bear his own load. So the first scripture there that we need to understand is when we find someone in a fault, we need to bear their burden and restore them in gentleness and in meekness. So even when I'm mentioning the different names, if you notice, I'm not going into all their graphic details, telling them how dare they and this and the other? I'm not trying to be a tabloid.
Speaker 1:The reality is, though, we are going to see more and more men and women falling. The Bible says that there would be a great falling away. As a matter of fact I'm going to see if I can find that real quickly I think it's in 1 Thessalonians or 2 Thessalonians, rather chapter two, and it talks about the great falling away. Here it is. Now check this out 2 Thessalonians, chapter two.
Speaker 1:Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together in him, we ask you not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or word, or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Now look at this. So it's talking about the return of Christ. No one deceive you by any means, for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and also the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Speaker 1:So I'm saying that there's going to be a great fall, on which we're already seeing. We're seeing the church, we're seeing the pulpits where they're now bringing inclusion. Doesn't matter your lifestyle, sexually, doesn't matter what you defile, you define marriage, all of it. They're saying it's welcome. We're seeing more and more pastors and scandals and things that are going wrong, and some aren't going to be repentant. Some will be, but we're going to see a lot more of that. The Bible says, as Christ's return gets closer, that the love of many is going to grow cold because iniquity is going to abound in Matthew 24. So we're seeing that happen as well. That's why I tell people it's so important to keep oil in your lamps, it's so important to stay prayed up, it's so important Watch this, stay in church.
Speaker 1:I didn't plan on going here, but let me do it anyways. It is very important that you are in the house of God. Don't become this cyber church person. Don't become a person that is in virtual church the word virtual meaning almost real. There's nothing that can replace the fellowship of the saints, so you need to be in the house of God Now. I'm not talking about people that are bedridden or people that can't get there. Since COVID has happened, many people have reverted to virtual church now, and we don't want that to be the replacement for being in the house of God. We need to make sure that we're in God's house. Thank God for virtual church, virtual preaching. I'm doing it right now, but that doesn't replace fellowship. There's something about fellowship with the saints that grows, you develops, you keeps oil in your lamp, keeping yourself prayed up. Let me mention this as well. I didn't plan on going here, but I want to mention it anyways.
Speaker 1:Be careful of what you allow into your home the movies you watch, the music you listen to, the streaming that you do, what you allow on your kids' phones and what they watch. If you're not monitoring your kids, you need to monitor your children and what they do online, because there's so much that they can get into. Even with all the monitoring stuff, there's still ways that they can get around it and find themselves in trouble. Www, the World Wide Web oh, what a tangled web we weave, you know. I mean there's a web out there that gets you tangled up and then the devil can just slowly crawl up on you and devour you. So it is important that we be careful of the music we listen to, conversations, we keep the things that we do, the things of the world that we allow into our lives that can siphon out the oil and fill it with water and therefore we become diluted and watered down in our life. So be careful of the mixing in the season. That's why we need the fellowship of the saints.
Speaker 1:The Bible talks about how in 1 John, that when we have fellowship one with another it's proof that we're walking in the light. The devil always seeks to isolate. If he can isolate you, then he can annihilate you. That's why the Bible says, when the 90 and nine were together and the one left, jesus said the good shepherd goes after the one. Why there's power? My good God in agreement and in unity. There's power. When you're together with the body of Christ, there's power. Matter of fact, there's so much power that the shepherd left and he had so much confidence in the unity amongst the 99, he felt comfortable to leave them. But it was the one that was isolated, that was preparing to be annihilated. So it is very, very important. But you understand, you need to be in the house of God in these last days and that falling away is happening. So being in church and being with one another, it is so vitally, vitally important. Okay. So I got on that because I'm talking about pastors falling away. How do we address these pastors that are pastors, that are pastors, and so how do pastors address other pastors? What do we do when we see a pastor fallen?
Speaker 1:I am not a person that feels that God has given us. The Bible says judge not lest you be judged. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. It doesn't mean that sometimes, when things come out in the news and things happen that there needs to be, because there's been a lot of people that have said different things, done different things that aren't correct and, as a result, it could be setting a precedent or an example to the world that that lifestyle, that belief that whatever is okay. So there are times when a public rebuke has to happen so people don't feel it's okay. But watch this it is not a condemnation per se of the person. Maybe, maybe it's not, depending on every scenario. You don't ever want to condemn. You always want to be redemptive, but you want to call them to repentance. But some people get on there and call them a devil and call them names and degrade them. The whole purpose of exposing them is to make sure somebody doesn't say that lifestyle is okay, that belief is okay, that action is okay. This is not right.
Speaker 1:So when something goes public, I don't think it's wrong for a pastor to address it. I think it's how they address it and why they're addressing what they're addressing, and we always need to be remember this. When all else fails, ask yourself the question I called it wrong. I called it wrong. Am I redemptive in my efforts? If you are redemptive, which means this is wrong, but if you come to Jesus, he can make it right and there's room at the cross for you and there's a message of the good news at the end of it.
Speaker 1:Now, of course, we need to correct certain things. You know, I remember one pastor in particular came out about the tithe and talk about it wasn't no longer necessary to tithe anymore. And then there's some pastors that come out saying that homosexuality is okay and things along that line, and same sex marriage is all right, transgender is okay and the gospel of inclusion came out, where everybody is saved, nobody will go to hell, okay. You know, when that stuff goes viral, then there are times when pastors have to speak to that because you don't want other people hearing that and then saying, okay, if this person said it, it must be okay. So there's a time to address the dysfunction, the heresy, the belief system, the ideology that could cause people to stray, but we are still redemptive to the man or the woman. We're still redemptive to them. So if you're going to be a person that speaks about that stuff, it needs to be with a redemptive, merciful heart. So you have to do both and that's why the Bible said Jesus was full of grace and truth. Not that they're all having truth, but are your words seasoned with salt? Are they redemptive or are they judgmental and condemning and no hope for return? We want to make sure people know this is right, that's wrong, but on the other hand, we can bring them back into the kingdom in Jesus name. So pastors calling out other pastors in this situation here.
Speaker 1:I've heard people mention about the Mark Driscoll thing and I want to mention that for a moment because I think it's very, very important that we address that and people. I've had multiple conversations and talked with people the guy that they had a men's conference and for some reason or another, they had a guy on a stripper pole and Mark Driscoll didn't feel comfortable. So he called it out and said how there was a demonic spirit that was open, and then the pastor starts talking back to him about how he needs to make. He should have done it privately and I have two schools of thought with that that. I've heard people say Somebody say you need to keep them, keep it quiet, should address it privately. Then he all said he wanted to address it publicly. And I always feel like this If people are impacted publicly, I don't feel that a public rebuke, public correction, is out of order.
Speaker 1:And of course, mark Driscoll has been very controversial in a lot of things that he's done in the past and things like that. I get it. But just going back to the scripture, the Bible talks about how we need to correct others so that others may fear. So when something is done publicly, there needs to be a public correction lest others think oh well, I'll start having strippers in my church. And so what happened? You had hundreds, if not thousands, of men together in one place seeing a man on a stripper pole, which is a little, to be honest with you, a little foreign to me. I don't know all the details as to why they had that, but this is what I would say If there's something wrong that was done publicly.
Speaker 1:If somebody addresses it publicly, I don't think it's wrong, because what you're doing is you're letting people know hey, this is what the Bible says, that was not correct. And this guy that was in the pulpit went and did that. Now if it was a pastor's private sin, if it was something you saw about the pastor and it wasn't public, and you go to him and you address it publicly, I think you're out of order. But going to the pastor privately is you know totally what needs to be done in a situation. But then if there's a public showing of sin or some belief system, it has to be addressed publicly so people don't go down the wrong path and feel that is okay and that's how you need to live. So I do not have a problem with that. Some people may have had a problem with it.
Speaker 1:I do not, uh, cause I think in this generation's day and hour there's so much looseness in the world that if we don't address those things accordingly, people will run with that stuff and now you'll have women strippers in there and before you know it people will be twerking and doing every other such a thing in the house of God. I mean, oh, it would never get to that. We didn't think we'd get to a point where churches would be adopting same-sex marriage and saying that's okay, and now you have a first, you have the pastor and the first man. You've got all that. Now I mean, who would have thought we would have gotten to that point? So I remember, looking back, I never thought that marijuana would have been legalized. Now you can get it on every corner in some capacity. So I mean every corner in some capacity. So I mean you know it's life can get worse and worse and worse when it comes to culture if light doesn't stand up and say something.
Speaker 1:So there are times that we need to address those things and we need to speak to those things. Very, very, very important that we address those situations accordingly. So I believe that what it comes down to at the end of spiritual authority is that spiritual authority is spiritual. And even when a man or a woman has spiritual authority, how we address people needs to be in meekness, it needs to be in love. And I think, even with pastors, when we find another pastor and say if we can do it privately, we should do it privately, but if there is a public opening and they're condoning a certain action, a belief that's contrary to Scripture. We have to speak to that so others don't start saying, because, think about it. To permit is to participate.
Speaker 1:Your silence is an affirmation that something is okay. If you saw somebody getting raped and you didn't say anything, you're saying it's OK. In essence, internally, you may say, well, I don't think that was right, but you? But if you saw and witnessed it and didn't do anything about it, you have to say something. Like Dr King said, the time is always right to do what is right.
Speaker 1:So it's important that we address the things that we see and we don't allow that to continue to go on. So there are times that we have to say something and a lot of people aren't going to say anything at all. They want to play the nice card and all that. But remember, it's not about not judging people. Now watch this. This is important. It's not about not judging people. I don't want to be a judge, I don't want to be a judge. It's not about being a judge. It's about when people of power and influence do things contrary to the scripture, those that may not have the maturity and understanding could fall into heresy, could fall into sin, could fall into error, and our job as pastors and leaders is to make sure that doesn't happen. So it is vital.
Speaker 1:There are times that you have to be public and you have to say the hard thing and you have to do the hard thing, and a lot of people may not like it, but it's still the truth anyways, and it's all about how we go about it. Though we're always redemptive and every situation could be different. There could be a past that's flagrantly arrogantly declaring that the Bible says X, y, z and it doesn't. Or the Bible clearly says a certain lifestyle is wrong and they're condoning it and saying it's okay to do it, or whatever it might be. I mean, it could be anything, but when it's clear that the Bible is clear that this is a sin, this is wrong, before God and somebody gets on and says something otherwise, it needs to be addressed publicly so others don't fall into that, and what we do is we say we love them, we're praying for them, but this is what the Bible says about what you saw and what you heard. So I need you to see that and we should be very quick to study, to show ourselves approved, so we understand what the scripture says about whatever situation pops up. So it is just so very, very important that we address the things that we need to address, in public and in private.
Speaker 1:I believe we should cover whenever we can. When we can't cover, let's cover people. When we can't cover, we can't, and sometimes you can't cover it, but you don't have to be judgmental and condemning in your efforts to help people see the light. So the purpose behind people seeing the truth is to keep them from falling in heresy, keep them falling into sin, they could think, because this leader says it's okay, it's all right to do it.
Speaker 1:There was a certain person on a talk show not too long ago, and they had mentioned about how all of the songs that they had created, they created pretty much with their backside nude, on sitting on a bench, and said when you come to my house, don't sit on that bench because there ain't nothing but cheeks there. And that's what this individual said. They made all the songs that people worship to, but naked, with their cheeks on the bench, and some people say, well, is that okay? Now, that was made public. So for me, though, in that situation, I'm like why do people need to know that?
Speaker 1:What is the reasoning behind exposing something that is intimate to the public eye? What's the reasoning for that? Why do we feel the need to do that? And so that is not something that people need to see in their minds? And the Bible says don't let your good be evil spoken of. So, even though that may not be wrong to do, there's some things you just don't talk about because of what it can do to other people's thinking about you. So there's certain things you don't say. There's certain things places you don't go. So there are a lot of people that address that.
Speaker 1:But this is my point it's redemptive. Hey, I don't believe that's correct. That's not why you want to do that. But this individual, we want to continue to pray for them and bring them into the kingdom of God. You know, it's funny.
Speaker 1:We went from a point in life where people went from like exposing everything to where now you know, people will say, well, I just want to pray for that person and tell it so they have an opportunity to gossip. But then people got so caught up and worried about gossiping that now we're afraid to call a spade a spade. Now we're at a point in life where people don't want to judge anybody, judge anybody. So judgment has been now a colorful way of saying I don't want to call out anybody's sin. I don't really want to say something is wrong. I don't really want to make a stance. That's what they're calling judging. No, judging is saying it's wrong, you're a bum, you're a loser, you're a sinner, and leaving it at that.
Speaker 1:Correction and conviction says it's wrong. Listen, this is what the Bible says. But there's room at the cross for you. Let's make the adjustment, believing the best in them and trying to bring them to where they need to be. So this is where I believe it has been lost, in the body of Christ and where pastors now it has been lost in the body of Christ and where pastors now I mean I've seen some pretty ugly conversations of pastors dogging other pastors just downright like calling names, pretty much saying hey, if you want to meet in the streets, let's do this all that type of stuff. There's no place in scripture for that.
Speaker 1:The Bible and I've read it before to you, the Bible says that the man of God needs to not be quarrelsome, not given to anger, not been one that's looking to create strife, but looking to be gentle even in their correction, in humility. The Bible says to correct them in humility, to bring correction. So I'm not seeing a lot of that. And when you see that the spirit of that individual is not okay, it's not all right. There isn't a redemptive but it's just combative. Their spirit is not correct according to scripture, it's not right. You can correct, but still do it in humility, do it in meekness and do it in kindness and gentleness. You can still correct. You can still correct, you can still go.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like the difference between let me say it like this, put a little humor on it the difference between telling somebody and going up to them and say, man, your breath is terrible, and you know, and so you, and then you hand them a piece of gum and say, my gosh, man, your breath stinks. Now it could be a hundred percent true, a hundred percent true, but you don't have to say it like that. You could go and say, hey, listen, um, you know, I noticed that. Uh, you know your breath smell. You got a lot on your mind. It could be something simple, like you just go to him, say, hey, you know I love you brother, and just pass something in their hand, quietly and discreetly. You know it could be something along that line. You know it's. It's the way you go about it. You want them to bring about the change.
Speaker 1:You know you hear people say all the time if you're really my friend, you'll tell me the truth, without a doubt. But you don't have to expose me, you don't have to embarrass me when it's not necessary. You can just come to me and say, hey, hey, bro, like for me if it's me. You just come to me and say, hey, hey, bro, like for me if it's me. You just come tell me hey, bro, here, here's a piece of gum there and I can even I can figure it out and say are you telling me something? Yeah, I am, thank you, I appreciate that. Versus everybody's in a room, you decide just to expose them. So it's important that we understand that. I'll give you one last story.
Speaker 1:When it comes to the between between conviction and correction versus judgment and condemnation, there was a lady years ago in my church and she had ridden to a certain city and had a little bit of a distance, and this lady that was I call them talkaholics people that just talk all the time and can't stop talking and so she talked the whole way that she was there and when they got back, the lady said to the other lady oh my gosh, you talked the whole time. I mean she just started laughing at her and the lady was taken back. I think a little bit by it Um and uh, but it was front of all of us, which was none of our business. If somebody talks too much, you go to them alone and you address them and say hey, listen, I've noticed that. But see, it's a lot easier because watch this, and I want to say this and I want to say this Many people do it like that because they have no courage.
Speaker 1:They don't have the courage to confront them, they don't have the courage and the love to sit down and say let me address this with you. Hey, listen. You know I don't know why you feel the need to talk so incessantly all the time, but it just seems like a lot of time when I'm with you. You know, I really enjoy being with you, but it's really hard for me to get you would gossip about them. You need to go and share that with them to their face. Why the purpose of the correction is. So then, maybe they're losing relationships and maybe they're losing different things and opportunities, because they don't know when to be quiet. So if you love them, you're going to share the hard thing with them and but you do it in love, in a way that's redemptive and corrective, but not judging and condemning. So that's what it comes down to, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1:So I hope that these last few sessions on dimensions have been a blessing to you, just addressing spiritual authority in our hearts, and I hope that it's helped you with understanding how to deal with pastors and when you're in close proximity with leaders and you see parts of the humanity and dealing with family and everything else, and that the abuse is out there. You know it really is. There's a lot of people that abuse spiritual authority and use it as a tactic of fear, so people won't say anything or open up their mouths, and I hope that I've done a good job helping you to understand that. If you have any questions that I haven't answered, feel free to DM me and DM my wife, dm our ministry and let us know and I'll come back and I'll address some of those questions that you might have, because it is important that we understand how to operate in that and we understand how to flow in that as well. So I'm going to be coming to you soon. I know it's a little bit shorter today, but I wanted to make sure I wrapped up part three here. I might bring on some family and stuff later on to talk a little bit more about that and let them give another perspective concerning that, but I wanted to wrap this up and I've got some great things coming up in the future as well.
Speaker 1:So, listen, don't forget to take a moment, as always, like I always ask you to do to make sure that you take a moment to like, subscribe, follow, share, do all of those things. Let everybody know. Listen, we're on YouTube, we're in every I think almost every social media platform you can be on, and then our podcast go to everyone. Everywhere. You can get a podcast, download the Dimensions podcast, like and subscribe to it and watch. God just bless you with more episodes and once you subscribe, as soon as that uploads, you'll have access to it and it'll be great.
Speaker 1:So, um, I love you all so much. We're praying for you, believing for God's best in and through your life. I hope that this has been a blessing to you and let me just pray for you before we go now. Father, in the name of Jesus, thank you for every person. I hope that this has been a blessing to you and let me just pray for you before we go Now. Father, in the name of Jesus, thank you for every person.
Speaker 1:I pray that those that may have been wounded with spiritual authority would find healing and those, father God, that need to understand better boundaries that they would have.
Speaker 1:That, father and Lord, there may be pastors out there that didn't even know that they were doing what they were doing, or maybe even have people too familiar with them, or whatever it might be. Whatever changes, whatever landed, father, I'm praying that all of us would love and honor one another, whether we're in authority, whether we're not. That Lord will always honor one another and love one another. We'll always be redemptive in our correction and allow the Holy Spirit to convey that we won't be judging or condemning from the standpoint that there's no redemptive quality, that there's no way for them to make it right, there's no way for God to use it, there's no way for God to redeem it. Father, god, I'm asking for your blessing upon each and every one of us. Father, we thank you, giving you the praise, the honor and the glory In Jesus name, we pray Amen, amen, amen. Like I said, I am so glad that you tuned in. I hope that you've been blessed. I'll be looking forward to seeing you next time right here on Dimensions.