Enter the leader: Knowing What To Do When You Don't Know What To Do.
[00:00:00] John Kundtz: Hi everybody. I'm your host, John Kuntdz, and welcome to another edition of the Disruptor Podcast.
For those of you who are new to our show, the Disruptor series is your blueprint for groundbreaking innovation. We started this podcast in December 2020 as a periodic segment of the Apex Podcast. Our vision was to go beyond conventional wisdom by confronting the status quo and exposing the raw power of disruptive thinking.
Today, we'll be talking to leadership coach Andrew Netschay of Warm Steel Consulting as he shares valuable advice on the pitfalls and mistakes many executives make while they are ascending the professional ranks, navigating organizational hierarchy, and climbing the corporate ladder.
Welcome to the show, Andrew.
[00:01:07] Andrew Netschay: Thanks, John. I appreciate you having me here today.
[00:01:10] John Kundtz: Yeah, it's going to be fun. Before I get into Andrew's background, he and I started working, oh shoot, 2012-ish, I think, on a project out of Vancouver, where Andrew's located, and it was for a credit union.
And I was the supposed subject matter expert from out of town and came in, and we needed a really good project manager. We were doing some data center strategy and data center relocation, and Andrew came onto our team as a. subcontractor through his company, Warm Steel Consulting. So he and I have developed a relationship for now going on 10 plus years.
So that's pretty cool. But Andrew, I always like to let the guests introduce themselves because I think it makes a little bit more sense, and you can tell us about your background, your education, your experiences, World of executive coaching and leadership development.
[00:02:09] Andrew Netschay: The irony is I never planned on doing this, my goal as a teen and early 20-something was to be teaching martial arts around the world. That was my passion. I would go take my university courses in the morning, get them done, and rush over to the gym. Teach for six to seven hours and train myself for another two or three hours.
So, my lifelong dream was to never put on a suit and teach martial arts. I used to teach de-escalation and conflict resolution to law enforcement and security personnel as well as regular citizens. And as I said, I swore I would never put on a suit. Flash forward a few years and some serious injuries.
I put on a suit, took my briefcase, and went to my first real job as a customer service manager for a software development firm in Vancouver. And that was a rude awakening. Most people who called me every day were not calling to share good news. They were not happy with the software we had sold them, and they were airing their displeasure regularly.
I was taking a beating every day. From irate customers, what I started to do is connect some of the dots, connect some of the learnings and principles I learned in the boxing ring, to working with people, de-escalating conflict, calming people down, disarming them with some proactive speech tactics, and I learned that the tactics I would teach or the strategies I would teach to defend oneself, those same strategies could apply in the business world.
The tactics were massaged and tailored for a business context, but the strategies remain true. Again, the irony is I wasn't supposed to be here, but I ended up leveraging all those lessons I learned in the boxing ring in the corporate world.
[00:03:56] John Kundtz: I can attest firsthand on our working together for six or eight months that we had many opportunities to resolve some conflicts.
That's why I thought this was a great topic to talk about. Much like you, I got into this business a little bit by accident as well, so I can totally relate to learning one set of skills and then pivoting and applying them.
I know that out of these experiences and based on the stuff we did together 10 years ago, you've developed this methodology. Could you go a little deeper on the benefits that a company or its executives might receive if they successfully provide conflict management and leadership development within their operations?
[00:04:42] Andrew Netschay: Yeah. Great question. The foundational element of our leadership framework is awareness. So one of the benefits is as you build your awareness skills to read the room and to read your negotiating partner, you also learn how to introspect and read your own emotional climate.
What type of emotions are running through your mind when you're in a tough conversation or you're in a conflict with a vendor or a client?
If you don't understand the stories you're telling yourself to add meaning to an event, you're not going to be able to really manage those emotions that get triggered by certain stressful events in the workplace. One of the key benefits I find that you could leverage outside of the office is really self-awareness.
As you start to understand the emotional climate internally, You can manage yourself better in these tough conversations. A side effect of that is confidence because, again, as I say, know thyself. So you're aware of what's going on in your brain, the rationalizations, the stories, how you're perceiving events as they're coming to you.
You will, in turn, develop a sense of confidence because you'll be able to see and read the room a little bit better. You'll also understand how you're going to respond. Being self-aware and building confidence is also going to help you be a much more collaborative leader and align with the company culture, if not establishing you, and if that is your mandate, I find that the higher the corporate ladder you climb, the higher stakes the conversations are.
So the budgets are bigger, you're managing bigger teams, and then in those higher stakes conversations, you got more emotions. Emotions are running high. And so your skill set has to be up to the task of managing your emotions, their emotions, and navigating through those conflicts. So, I really see confidence self self-awareness as our major benefits to the individuals taking these types of development programs.
[00:06:42] John Kundtz: It reminds me of, again, back to our project. Let me give you a little backstory just for the listeners. Andrew and I are working on this project. I'm the guy from the United States flying in, trying to pretend like I'm the executive, and Andrew's basically running the day-to-day stuff.
I would come in every couple of weeks just to see how they did, and it was a pretty critical project. We had an audit requirement for the credit union that needed to move their data center off, out of the tectonically active, western part of Canada, into something a little more stable.
You probably remember this, right? And you sit me down, and you say, we got a problem. I said, what's going on? And you say one of our lead architects has resigned from the company. And I'm like, oh boy, we're in, oh crap, we're in trouble. You helped me figure it out and coached me.
We came up with a plan, and together, we worked it through and, yeah. I went and sat down with our project sponsor, who was under the gun, to get this thing done. And we talked it through, and I think probably brought you in, and we talked it through a little bit more, and he realized we had control of it and we knew what we were doing.
We had his back and something that could have been a disaster. All projects have issues and problems, not too many of them, though I've never had one where the guy quits in the middle of the project. Usually, they wait till it's over. But I think that was a great example. At least for me, I didn't know your background at that point. I just knew you were a really good project manager, but I think you helped me with some of the techniques you just articulated.
[00:08:21] Andrew Netschay: Yeah, I definitely remember your calm demeanor.
Calm the client, right? We didn't come to the client saying the house was burning down. No, we've got a small plumbing issue in one of the bathrooms. We're going to get it fixed. The way you handled that discussion was you came in prepared, your emotions were in check, and I think that was just contagious.
And that's actually a Navy SEAL maxim, which is calm is contagious, and that's how you presented the problem. And you already had a solution. So what could have been a massive explosion and eruption in the project? You explained the problem, you had the solution, and we still had a happy client.
[00:08:59] John Kundtz: So I got good coaching, to be honest. You had it figured out. You coached me through what we've done, where we are, what's missing, what is the critical path, all these things that you were up to your neck in it because of the day-to-day things. So again, I don't think it was me. I think I got good coaching and advice and just teamwork that you and I put together.
Anyway, tell me about when companies try to sync up their operations with this leadership development because this is a word that's used over and over again, and there are lots of programs.
The reason I wanted you on the show is because the theme is the disruptor, and I like to look at things that aren't status quo. I thought your approach and your Enter The Leader program are definitely one of those unique approaches, and I'm sure it's based on things that you've experienced and seen.
What are some of the typical pitfalls that organizations or executives who are trying to deploy a leadership program within the organization?
[00:10:02] Andrew Netschay: A great question. And I agree that there are a ton of leadership development programs out there. I think one of the key misses is ignoring the foundation, and the foundation really is self-worth.
Do you believe you have something of value to share and contribute?
Do you believe you're worthy of having a seat at the table?
Can you contribute?
If that brick in the foundation isn't there and you devalue your own contribution, people will read that. I'm not talking about being arrogant or overly assertive, but just knowing in yourself and being aligned that, yes, I have something of value to contribute. That part of the foundation has to be there. So, no matter if training in tactics, strategies, or drilling different scenarios is going to really stick unless that foundation is there.
Next, we get into belief systems.
Do you believe you can lead?
And if you don't, why not?
So that's something we work on exploring as well.
Fear management, again, I find a lot of the programs really dive right into the tactics and strategies right away.
But you really need to get that foundation covered first, and then you build the floors on top of that. It's an approach we took when I was teaching women how to defend themselves. If they did not feel worthy of defense, and if they did not believe that they could defend themselves, there is no way they would be able to execute what we were teaching them in a real-life situation.
So, it always has to begin at the foundation, the same thing for leadership. So you really have to value what you have to bring to the table and believe you can contribute. And then, we start building the strategies on top of that.
[00:11:50] John Kundtz: Is there anything else that people do? Do they try to do stuff, or they're doing things in the typical way that then tends not to work?
[00:11:59] Andrew Netschay: The feedback we've received as far as people really appreciate us going into this foundation, and that's been consistent feedback I've received. A lot of programs don't even go there.
They talk about some negotiation tactics. If he says this, I do that, and a lot of role-playing. But, I think getting into learning how to read the physiological changes that are impacting you when you're in a tough conversation.
For instance, the symptoms of fear, otherwise known as an adrenaline dump. If you don't understand that an elevated heart rate, sweaty palms, and dry throat are really symptoms of having an adrenaline boost. This means your body's getting prepared, and you misread that as a sign of your impending doom; that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Having the awareness to read your own physiological state, your mental and emotional state, allows you to make adjustments internally as you go forward.
So that's where we get into self-awareness, as we talked about self-worth, belief systems, and fear management, and then that drives your ability to apply some of the strategies, one of which is disarming speech.
How do you disarm and diffuse a situation so that you can bring the temperature down and really get back to a collaborative conversation as opposed to a conflict-ridden one?
[00:13:21] John Kundtz: It's interesting. I think we've all been in meetings where somebody is just irate and crazy and screaming and yelling, and you're just trying to figure out how do we bring it back down. As I said, all projects and all situations, there are problems. That's the nature of the game.
How do you get started? After listening to some of these cool ideas and taking this idea of the stuff you've learned through training, martial arts, and other programs.
What advice would you give to somebody who wants to get started or to an executive who maybe is looking to put a leadership program or a leadership journey into their organization or into their team?
[00:13:57] Andrew Netschay: I would canvass the team probably anonymously and get some feedback on what the biggest challenges they face on a day-to-day basis, and get into the interaction aspect, like what aspects of interacting with clients or vendors or partners, and depending on the role, or if you're talking to a sales team, they're regularly working on business development, interacting with potentially new customers and understanding, what is working, what's not working.
I typically put out a feedback survey right after each workshop, and we get a sense of what people want to learn more of, and that really tailors the next workshop. We had one with a Vancouver group earlier this summer, and people wanted to get into more of a disarming speech.
What do I say in this situation? So we started with the foundation, and then they wanted to get more tactics because the foundation was in place. So we worked on that. Some people come back with just this disabling state of fear when they're in a high-stakes conversation, and I remember delivering projects in my 20s and the chronic anxiety I would face and how I would center myself and just remind myself, one of the concepts I teach is, building a trophy case and in a nutshell, what that is, is a trophy case is your collection of experiences where you force yourself to go out of your comfort zone.
So maybe you're a marathon runner or maybe you're a golfer or a scuba diver. I took up archery recently. These are examples where, at one point, you were a white belt, you did not know how to scuba dive, you did not know how to use a bow and arrow, and then you force yourself to go take a lesson, and then that became part of your comfort zone, and perhaps you achieved some success in that realm, that becomes a trophy you put in your trophy case, so next time you're in front of a potentially hostile negotiating partner. You remind yourself, Hey, I got this. I was able to cross out of my comfort zone and do this new thing, and I achieved success. And you get yourself centered, reminding yourself of your past successes. So that's an example of a concept we teach.
So how do you get started?
Figure out where your team is crying out for the most help and, at that point, you can contact someone like myself, and we develop a program where we talk about, okay, so these are the challenges, what are some of the, what are some of the tools, what aspects of the framework can empower them to work through those challenges and we tailor a program for your team to address head-on, their key fears and challenges when they're meeting with clients or business partners.
[00:16:31] John Kundtz: So we could probably go on and on. There's a lot of stuff we could peel back and then really deep dive on, but I want to start wrapping up our interview here, so I'll always try to end with the same question, which is there anything that I should have asked that I didn't, or you'd like to share before we, let the people get back to, their day jobs?
[00:16:52] Andrew Netschay: Again, great question. I think if you're really ambitious at climbing the corporate ladder and moving it to leadership positions. Differentiate yourself. So that means getting good at what other people are afraid of getting good at. And, personally, I found that's...
Conflict management.
Most people avoid conflict like the plague. They cannot stand going. They'll push, they'll kick that can down the road. Wait till that issue will miraculously resolve itself. So go to where everyone avoids going. Get skills in that area, and that's going to allow you to differentiate yourself sooner.
You'll become known as a problem solver. So, that's the number one tip. If I had 30 seconds with someone, that is what I would tell them.
[00:17:36] John Kundtz: Awesome. Thank you, man. Great. Great interview, bud. I appreciate your great advice. So where can people learn more about you and your program and your consulting offerings and things like that?
[00:17:49] Andrew Netschay: The quickest and simplest way to reach me is to go to our website, warmsteel.com, or search for me on LinkedIn, Andrew Netschay, and you'll find me, reach out there. Again, warmsteel.com or my name and LinkedIn, and we can get in connect pretty quickly.
[00:18:06] John Kundtz: And we'll, of course. Put those URLs and those links into the show notes. So, for people to easily find you,
Real quick, tell me a little bit about these workshops because you alluded to them in and out through the questions. I think it's one of the unique value props that you've shared with me over the years.
[00:18:29] Andrew Netschay: Yeah, basically what we try to avoid is that cookie cutter approach where here's a curriculum, and we're just going to force feed it to everyone who comes knocking. No, I think that the key part here is I meet with the director or executive who finds there is a need in his or her organization for this type of training.
I ask them to canvas their team; we figure out what people are really begging to learn. Where do they feel disempowered? So we tailor a program for them based on that. So it's usually a two, three-step program. We talk, we understand what the key needs are, I tailor that program, I share the agenda and the approach with the exec who's pushing this through their organization, and then we deliver the training, and usually there are lots of follow-ups because, as you can imagine, these conversations, the learning, the, once you ignite the thirst, people really want to develop their skills, so that, that's a typical engagement.
I meet with you, figure out where your team needs the most help, and we tailor the program for you.
[00:19:28] John Kundtz: Thanks. I really appreciate your enlightening us on your insights on common pitfalls and leadership development and revealing these genuine strategies to more effective outcomes.
I have one more question for you. So why do you believe that this unconventional, I'll call it disruptive method of your leadership development is especially beneficial to a program and project leaders that are trying to enhance their communication?
You hit upon this, but let's just sum it up, and we'll leave it at that they're trying to enhance their communication and negotiation abilities.
[00:19:59] Andrew Netschay: if you're put in a position as a delivery prime, you're delivering a program or a project that probably has a high sticker value to it.
You're essentially running a company, and when you're running a company, you have to balance the needs of your customers and your resources. You're going to have drop-dead deadlines that you have to meet. So you're constantly balancing all these factors, internal and external, which translates into a pressure cooker.
I really see a project or program manager being the CEO of a smaller company, and sometimes, depending on the budget or span, it could be even larger than most midsize companies. So, that pressure cooker situation needs tools because this formal training really doesn't exist.
It's handling those emotions that occur when you're in that pressure cooker. So you need a strategy to handle that so you can navigate through it and just build a track record of successful project delivery.
[00:20:58] John Kundtz: Great advice. Hey, what I learned from this conversation is, first, tough conversations are unavoidable. But having a team trained to lead them with grace, compassion, and respect really will help you keep your clients for longer or your team for longer.
From a company's perspective, point of view, I think providing this kind of training to your team translates into a couple of things.
One, you have higher retention of your top talent because they're being fulfilled.
Less burnout, as your team now has the tools to manage emotions. Emotional burnout, especially in a high-pressure system, is in daily conflicts; it's hard. We've all been through it.
And then you have happier clients. They will stay longer.
All of you listening, I really appreciate it.
Don't forget to check out Andrew's leadership coaching services.
And once again, I am John Kundtz and thanks for joining us on this edition of the Disruptor Podcast.
Have a great day, all.