#042 - Leading the Charge: From Michigan to DC w/ Chris Jackson, Chair of NCIA

Chris Jackson of the Michigan Legislative Black Caucus joins us to shed light on the fascinating and, at times, tumultuous world of the cannabis industry. Amid the buzz of finance and policy, we zero in on the unexpected resilience of smaller cannabis firms against their behemoth counterparts. The wide-reaching implications of shifts in policy influence and industry reform are at the forefront of our discussion, offering a glimpse into the current maze of the cannabis business landscape.

Venturing into the Michigan market, we discuss the ironic twists of the free economy as it relates to cannabis, where saturation and consumer preferences are major players. With insights into the craft cannabis wave and the impact of safe banking and rescheduling, we uncover parallels with Michigan's thriving brewery scene and the strategies emerging for businesses navigating these waters without vast financial resources. This segment dives into the nitty-gritty of market trends, the importance of creative partnerships, and the pressing need for systemic reform.

Wrapping up the episode, we highlight the significance of industry representation in government and the ongoing battle for equity within the cannabis sector. As the NCIA Lobby Days approach, we underscore the value of these engagements for educating Congress and furthering policy. We also contemplate the necessity for personal growth and community development within the industry, to cultivate progress and maintain unity in the face of potential fragmentation. Join us for this thought-provoking exploration into the complexities of advocating for a robust and equitable future in the realm of cannabis.

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Transcript

Ben Larson: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to High Spirits. It's episode 42. I'm Ben Larson and with me, as always, is Anna Rae Grabstein. We're recording Thursday, may 9th 2024. And we have an awesome show for you today, got my good friend Chris Jackson coming on the show. We do a lot of work together on NCIA. He's the executive director of the Michigan Black Caucus Legislative Black Caucus and just doing a director of the the Michigan black caucus legislative black caucus, um, and just doing a ton of work across the Midwest. I'm going to see him in DC next week and so we're going to cover we're going to cover a lot today, uh, but before we go there, anna Rae, what's been, uh, keeping you busy this week? Oh my gosh.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 0:40

I have had this narrative on repeat in my head. John Schroer, with Green Market Report, wrote an article at the beginning of the week about how the top 20 public companies in cannabis are just losing billions of dollars, and there's only one that's posted net income this year, and that is Green Thumb, and the other 19 collectively have lost over $2 billion on less than $9 billion of revenue.

Ben Larson: 1:08

Oh wow. And does that include their tax bill that they're not paying? I don't think so.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:16

You know, I talk with a lot of small and mid-sized companies that are going through a lot of expansion and growth and I dive into their numbers with them and understand how they're doing, and it's just shocking to me how I see the lots of smaller companies that are so much stronger from a performance perspective and a profitability perspective and have really shifted through the winds of change and complication. And then we've got these public companies that have to share their data with us and it just looks like garbage. So that's been this narrative in the back of my head of like what is it with these 20 public companies and why are they losing so much money and where is it going, like all the things that these small companies could be doing, with the billions of dollars being lost by these big companies?

Ben Larson: 2:09

It's just mind boggling, it's interesting, you know, like coming out of the tech space when companies are losing that much money. It's known that you're at this kind of growth at all costs kind of strategy which has been rewarded in the tech space, whether it's through acquisition or exits or just perpetual fundraising. But in this case that doesn't seem to apply, and so you got to wonder what happens when those coffers run dry, because I think the retail investors have gotten hip to the fact that the green rush is not so much a rush, it's more of a trickle.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 2:52

So true, so true. How about you? What's been in your head this week?

Ben Larson: 2:59

More of always the same.

Ben Larson: 3:00

It's all about beverage, Always, but especially right now.

Ben Larson: 3:04

We are nearing the end of the legislative session, especially here in California, and there's just a really impactful bill on the docket right now, AB 2223.

Ben Larson: 3:15

We've talked about it in the past and it's, as is, quite detrimental to not only, you know, the the the hemp beverage category that that's proliferating, but all of hemp operators in California and I don't know if that's that's the intent. It is kind of like that pendulum swing that we we often talk about in politics is, um, you know, there there's a massive uh regret about AB 45, which was about three years ago when that passed and the loophole it created to allow intoxicating hemp products into the marketplace, and so the same author of that bill is now trying to correct with the current bill. And it's interesting, I think, think in the author's ear in the previous bill was the US Hemp Roundtable and this time it is Origins Council, which is a group of growers out of the north counties of California, Also CCIA, the California Cannabis Industry Association, and so it's always interesting to start to understand a little bit more about how the sausage is made. It's a little mind-numbing at times.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 4:37

Interesting is a nice word, sometimes that can press.

Ben Larson: 4:40

Yeah, I'm trying to watch myself so I don't get myself in trouble with anyone.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 4:58

But it's interesting. It's very interesting common and it's part of our cannabis journey. But we all end up as advocates somehow, and a big part of that, often, if you start as an entrepreneur, is protecting your business and trying to make sure that there's pathways for success along the along the way. And certainly when it comes to policymaking in California and you're face to face with this right now with this hemp bill is that not aligned incentives with all of the parties and the elected officials might see the people in cannabis as all one collective group, but you and I know that that that people in cannabis that the electeds are seeing is actually many different, disparate groups that are. Some are in hemp, some are in regulated cannabis, some are manufacturers, some are beverage makers. Like, everybody sees the world in a different way and everyone's trying to just make it and is on the brink of something great but is most likely struggling, and so they're trying to protect their little piece of the pie, which totally makes sense but makes it really hard to get anything done.

Ben Larson: 6:08

Yeah, I think the universal truth that is starting to emerge and I read one of Brad Bogus' posts today is that the whole system is broken Like. This is not the legalization that we signed up for, and so you know, protecting what has been built is a tough case, and I think that's becoming very apparent to even the operators on the cannabis side.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:35

So protecting what has been built because it doesn't work. And so further investing in it is that is. Is that intelligent or not?

Ben Larson: 6:45

Yeah Right, it's like let's push all of hemp into the broken cannabis system because we want all the businesses to fail. Anyways, that's what, not what this episode is about.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:59

Yeah, but you know, I think it is a good segue. You know, I will say, ben, you and I both come from California and, as a result, we sometimes have a California centric view, and today I'm really excited to talk about things that are happening outside of California and, in particular, to dive into Michigan, because Michigan is the second largest cannabis state market in the country. Michigan is the second largest cannabis state market in the country. I pulled up some data before this episode and Michigan did $3 billion of sales in 2023. I mean, there's a massive, massive cannabis industry going on in the state and so really excited to bring on your friend, chris. Do you want to cue him up and introduce him?

Ben Larson: 7:44

No, I mean, that's your job. I'm not going to impede on that. Okay, I'll do it.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 7:48

I just met Chris today. I met him right as we were prepping before and you guys, he's awesome. He's got a great radio voice. But I want to bring on Chris Jackson. He has a lot of titles. He's the Executive Director of the Michigan Legislative Black Caucus. He is the chair of the National Cannabis Industry Association. He is also the owner and president of the Lansing Pharaohs, a professional basketball team out of Michigan, and he also has earned his stripes as an experienced cannabis entrepreneur, although not a current operator. So, chris, really excited to have you join the conversation today. Thanks for coming, welcome.

Chris Jackson: 8:28

Hello, hello, hello. And NRA, I'm not just Ben's friend, I'm your friend too, okay, so diplomatic of you. And we'll talk about why. But actually the Pharaohs are now located in Pontiac Michigan. Oh cool, so we moved from Lansing Michigan to Pontiac Michigan, but we could talk about that.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 8:52

Amazing. Well, there is so much to talk about with you today, but since you sit in Michigan and this is a show predominantly about cannabis, I think that we should start there. I'd love to hear your perspective. People see, the big number of Michigan is this big number? We've heard some other things, too about that. There's also an oversupply of cannabis in Michigan that there's been declining prices. What is happening in Michigan? That, with an oversupply and declining prices, that the state is still putting $3 billion on the board.

Chris Jackson: 9:30

Yeah, it's interesting, right, I think. First of all, thank you all for having me on today to have a chat and conversation. What's interesting about Michigan and the purest in me wants to believe that that everyone believes in the free market equally. I'm not saying that Michigan did a great job of equity to begin with and thinking about folks that may or may not have the funding to get into the industry and be as successful as others. I think we're seeing that everywhere. But what Michigan did do and I actually give the state, the regulatory agency, credit for is saying we're going to just have a free market state and very similar to California in that they're going to allow for municipalities to opt in or out, and then we're going to make businesses actually do good business, right and like they would do for any other industry. It's always funny to me that people are free market until free market works against their business. Now, all of a sudden, they aren't free market anymore and we saw a little bit of that in terms of you know to your point, the thought of there being an oversupply of cannabis in the market product. Cannabis products in the market enough and they're becoming more sophisticated regular consumers on a daily basis as they move into a space in where they appreciate options. They appreciate safe options, right. But there has to be an educational period that has to exist. There has to be a generation that phases out and a new generation that phases in, that doesn't know anything different than legal cannabis in Michigan, and we're slowly but surely getting to that point.

Chris Jackson: 11:31

The question for some businesses is are you able to just stay alive long enough right to see the fruits of your labor? And I think rescheduling certainly will help some of those businesses that aren't necessarily vertically integrated. It's actually a really interesting dichotomy here in Michigan because on the one end, if you have one or two retail locations, or if you have 15 plus locations, you're actually doing OK. For the most part, in terms of what I've seen, it's that if you're in the middle there, particularly if you aren't vertically integrated here in Michigan because of the free market approach, then those are the folks that we're seeing struggling and or have over leveraged and the money isn't in the market anymore because folks want to go to other states. There was a company recently C3 Industries actually has headed to its fifth market and fifth market, fifth state. So it's a multi-state operator that started here in Michigan and they just got another 16 to $20 million in investment, right? So it's not that the money doesn't exist, it's are you positioned properly to be able to take advantage of it's? Not that the money doesn't exist, it's are you positioned properly to be able to take advantage of it.

Chris Jackson: 12:48

That's the interesting part, I happen to believe, and then I'll get to your questions. I'm sorry, I'm rambling a little bit. I happen to believe that there's going to be a place throughout the country, but particularly in states like ours. The country, but particularly in states like ours. That kind of you know, michigan is known for its breweries, right. I think Grand Rapids, michigan, was touted Beer City USA at one point, right, but the craft experience is going to be an experience that I think, long-term, is going to allow for your smaller mom and pop shop restaurants whatever to have success long-term, whereas you have a couple of fast food brand restaurants that are just going to be everywhere, right? So do you want a fast food? You want something quick? You already know what you're getting, uh, or do you want an experience? And I think the industry is going to get there? It's just a matter of, um, things like rescheduling and safe banking happening at some point.

Ben Larson: 13:46

Chris, you were mentioning about kind of the opportunity for different municipalities to kind of opt in to the legal market and we've talked about this a lot in California how we don't actually have that much coverage as far as legal retail goes. How is the landscape looking in Michigan as far as coverage?

Chris Jackson: 14:07

Yeah, so well. The fact that there's an oversupply means that there needs to be more retail right, or you would think, right, so it's growing right. I think a lot of cities or municipalities in Michigan wanted to see how the others did it first before they decided to get involved. I think elected officials are becoming smarter in that we'll approach cannabis. It's here to stay. I think there's money to be made based on the taxes that have been distributed to all of the municipalities and the counties per the sales in cannabis. The question is counties per the sales in cannabis.

Chris Jackson: 14:43

The question is how do we do it? How many do we allow? Is it a merit-based system versus a random system? We don't want to get sued. How long can we take on lawsuits for? So elected officials are becoming smarter. Based on examples that other municipalities have set, as of right now, I think there's probably room. Based on the numbers that I've seen, there's probably room for more retail outlets. I imagine the folks that are going to be new owners retail outlet owners in Michigan are going to either be the folks that are social equity applicants right opening for the first time, or your large conglomerates that want to increase their footprint in Michigan because that's the only way. It makes sense In Michigan, if you're a large conglomerate, is to have as many storefronts, right?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 15:35

So you've been touching a bunch on stores in Michigan and I know that companies are allowed to be vertically integrated in Michigan if they choose, but they also don't have to be, which is very similar to the way California is. It's kind of a choose your own adventure in terms of what part of the supply chain you want to operate in, whereas you know New York has taken an approach where vertical integration isn't allowed. Florida requires vertical integration. You know everybody has has chosen a different path is, um, is there kind of a requirement in Michigan that's unspoken, to be vertically integrated if you want to be successful, or is there a good free market environment for brands to get into retail even if they don't own their own stores?

Chris Jackson: 16:24

Yep, that's right. I think people are becoming creative, as probably everywhere in cannabis, people are becoming more creative If you want long-term success, at least in this market, and being vertically integrated is highly recommended, right. But that means that you have to have a lot of money in order to be able to do that, at least initially. Have a lot of money in order to be able to do that, at least initially. Some businesses, like my old I was with Sticky Cannabis at one point we were operators together and then I transitioned out, but just retail. But there are producers, manufacturers, cultivators that exist that think that it would be advantageous to do a, a joint venture or a partnership or a licensing partnership that would make it to where maybe some items can get moved around and or, because you know the retail establishment has promised X amount of shelf space, it can be priced at a point where it still makes sense for the consumers and I'll talk about that in a second where everybody can still be profitable. So we're seeing people get more creative in that way. You mentioned price compression a little bit earlier.

Chris Jackson: 17:44

I happen to believe that the Michigan market is exactly what consumers. It's a consumer's market. It's what consumers want. Right To be clear, consumers don't want to have to pay a lot of money, and that's why you see $3 billion worth of revenue. And it also has a little bit to do with the fact that, you know, ohio is still figuring their stuff out, indiana depending on who the next governor is, but they aren't even close right, and so we get a lot of flooding in to the state of Michigan, a, because it's priced at the right price point and or B, other states around this just don't have access or it's far too expensive, like Illinois, right. So we'll call Illinois an oligarchy state, respectfully, but it's very much a limited market in terms of Can we all just laugh for a minute that you just called Illinois an oligarchy?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 18:41

It's kind of funny. Maybe I'll just laugh for a minute that you just called Illinois an oligarchy.

Chris Jackson: 18:44

It's kind of funny, but it's true. I mean, that's exactly what the market is. I mean Florida, very similar to that, right. So I actually like the fact that the free market is working and that the consumers are are actually participating, right Like the consumers want to participate in this market. The goal overall shouldn't just be we want businesses to be successful, I think, obviously. But I feel like the goal of a market should also be to graduate folks from how they traditionally got their cannabis to moving into a legal market, and the price structure right now in Michigan allows for folks to actually experience the legal market and get adapted to it, and I think, long term, that's what's going to be best. Unfortunately, there's going to be some businesses that just don't survive, but that's the case in every industry.

Ben Larson: 19:42

Selfishly. I have a beverage question for you, because you did mention that you know it was a beer drinking community. From your perspective, how is the beverage category doing in Michigan?

Chris Jackson: 19:55

It's growing quickly. I think at first it was a situation in which there weren't any beverages allowed, and then people start to figure out what the rules that you can allow for beverages, and now you're starting to see hemp, cbd beverages pop up quite a bit. Michigan hasn't gotten to the point yet where maybe some but, but it's pretty tricky but Michigan really hasn't gotten to the point yet where it's a market that allows for THC beverages as much as hemp or CBD derived beverages. But as the regulatory agency sees that beverages continue to increase in terms of sales, they're figuring out regulations around it and it's going to be here sooner than we know, and there's a number of brew companies that have already started cooking up their own recipes to have THC infused spots. I will say that, as of now, if you're talking about THC infused drinks, it can only probably be purchased in retail outlets Absolutely yeah, licensed retail outlets, I should say.

Ben Larson: 21:13

Are they pretty prominent in the marketplace, in the licensed marketplace?

Chris Jackson: 21:17

With THC-infused beverages?

Ben Larson: 21:19

Yeah, yeah, not yet, not yet.

Chris Jackson: 21:21

Not yet. A lot of room for growth. A lot of room for growth. We aren't like I don't know which way that is, but Minnesota right when Minnesota has a very prominent beverage market. That's not the case in Michigan yet, but I see it getting there. Yeah, I think it's kind of like this for you Northwest maybe for you.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 21:47

So I want to segue a little bit to talking about the way that you are enmeshed and have a really, I think, interesting perspective on policy change and the work that you're doing both with NCIA and with Michigan. You shared with us when we talked that you've run for office twice, unfortunately never got elected, but it's super badass either way. Just to step up and put anyone that chooses to go through that I admire. Seems like it really parlayed into you being involved in legislative policy anyway. And now you are the executive director of the Michigan Legislative Black Caucus, which is a group of Black elected officials and you're the executive director that's organizing them. And then you're also the chair at NCAA. And so I can hear, when you're talking about the industry, how you understand the way that navigating policy relates to strategy, and I'd like to just hear your perspective on, first on like Michigan policy and maybe what's changing in Michigan, that there wasn't a program initially and that now they're trying to fix some of that. Like, tell us about that.

Chris Jackson: 23:08

And, you know, feel free to move into national policy as well, but yeah, yeah, no worries, no worries, yeah, so I've always been, obviously I've always been legislative adjacent is what I say, right. So to your point. Legislative adjacent is what I say, right, so to your point. Ran for city council in my hometown, lost by 40 votes. It was tragic, like super close. And then ran for state rep right after that and came in a close third actually. And so at that point I just kind of told myself, listen, I mean it. Clearly, folks aren't into my politics at this moment in time, right, and I'm not meant to do that. But I had a buddy who became my partner with Sticky that basically came to me and just said hey, we were looking for expansion, we're looking for legislative affairs, community engagement, all of those things, obviously, you do very well and you just so happen to not win the election. Can you bring those talents and skills to the company? And at the time there was one medical facility in Ypsilanti, michigan, sticky Ypsi, and eventually that became Sticky Detroit and Sticky Muskegon, sticky Battle Creek, sticky River Rouge. So so there was a lot of growth. That happened shortly after I joined the team and we built a really cool brand together, and it still is a cool brand. But during that process, if you will, I also joined the NCIA board, right, and so now there's kind of a national perspective that can be honed in in Michigan based on all the things that I was seeing.

Chris Jackson: 25:01

And, you know, thanks to folks like Ben and others, the Chris Cranes of the world and folks that really believed in what I brought to the table, believed in what I brought to the table you know, now I'm the NCIA chair there was a speaking about Michigan. Specifically, there was a racial task force work group that then MRA director Andrew Brisbo put together. Because basically he said look, no doubt we haven't done what we should be doing when it comes to social equity, right, what, what we thought equity should individuals from all over the state stakeholders and said give me some recommendations on how to improve equity. And all the credit in the world to him. Because I think what some states try to do is they try to rightfully so they take examples from other states, but I feel like they don't get stakeholders from that state involved enough and from other states, for that matter, right, Involved enough to actually progress a productive equity program, right. So actually give Maryland credit for how they went about doing theirs, maryland credit for how they went about doing theirs.

Chris Jackson: 26:24

Anyway, long story short, though, that Racial Task Force work group came up with some recommendations, which have been implemented, and then transitioned over to a diversity, equity and inclusion continuous work group where, once a month, you serve on this work group for so many months, or whatever the case is, and everything that the agency decides to do they run it by this group. Just to say, are we taking the equitable lens into consideration? Right, which, again, I give them credit for that. Just recently, because without money, equity program just won't work. Right, and so just recently, albeit it wasn't nearly as much as the set aside that Maryland or Connecticut had done Michigan to their credit, the legislators appropriated a million or two to the CRA, which was then distributed equally amongst the equity licensees that were operating. Right, it's a baby step, but it's a step in the right direction. Ultimately, when it comes to a national perspective, if we're still talking about equity in the market, um, I think that maryland, uh, because that's the latest and greatest state to move in this direction for recreation.

Ben Larson: 27:51

Can you give us like a 30 second overview of what maryland has done that?

Chris Jackson: 27:54

yeah, yeah, no problem, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm assuming that folks know and I shouldn't. Um, so what maryland did basically, was say that we are going to allow for adult use, but we're going to do a lottery that's going to be a set aside for folks that qualify for their equity program and then, after that qualification, the time starts in which you know you have access to a conditional license, and that needs to translate to you actually operating. Now I will say this too they were smart in that the folks that were already operating became adult use operators, right. So we aren't trying to stop anybody else's business from happening, but we do need to make sure that we set up wraparound services, technical assistance I was a co-producer on some content for folks that may be interested in going into the market in various areas and various license, right. So they put that out first, and then they said we're going to create, set aside X amount of dollars for technical assistance. We're going to have a bucket of I think it was 50 million. That may have changed now. We're going to have a bucket of I think it was 50 million that may have changed now but a substantial amount of money, right.

Chris Jackson: 29:09

That says that this is particularly for equity programming and you know at least recently the conversation was what we fill in the blank and you do it in a way in which we approve of it, then you can have access to these grant funds Right Money or or low to no interest loans Right that you can have access to in order to get your business started. So that's what Maryland has done is doing. I know it's still evolving as we speak. I give Connecticut credit for doing something similar in partnership with Oaksterdam, where they said if you are a licensee and you go through this program and you can have access to lower, no interest loans for your project, part of this is you get some people who hit a lottery in a lot of ways because you're in a lottery but you win the lottery.

Chris Jackson: 30:19

But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have a certain level of business expertise, particularly in the cannabis industry. The goal is to see you be successful, not for you to operate, even though the opportunity is just as important as anything else. So there's this balance between we're going to give you an opportunity whether you are successful or not, but also we really want to see you be successful, because otherwise how do we justify funds being appropriated in the future as a legislature or a governor right, and then just trying to find that balance between and I don't think that any market has done it successfully, I guess it just depends on what you call successful, I guess it just depends on what you call successful.

Ben Larson: 31:12

One of the keys to some of these other markets that are not California is that I've seen these programs allow for non-location based licenses to be awarded and then they can go out and find the place. And I think that's such an important component of this because I've seen so many businesses die before they launch because they run out of funds in the permitting phase. It's like to have to have to lock in a location just to apply for a license because, like I just got done with a two and a half year project in berkeley that it would the project we were working on was unlicensed for essentially two and a half years and to pay rent on that as an operator that doesn't have a ton of funds or you're taking out these zero interest loans, you know like what happens when you have to start those repayments.

Ben Larson: 32:00

That's crazy.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 32:02

Well, even more. I'm interested in your perspective because I think that, while maybe there are some of the newer equity programs that might be getting it more right, are social equity programs the answer to really repairing the harms that were done by the war on drugs when they're serving such small groups of people? So maybe you have 100 or 200 people in a state that hit that social equity lottery or qualify for the program. When there's so many more thousands of people, is that the right way to focus our energy? Or should we be looking at broader community programs instead of driving people into this industry that's been so challenging for so many and and calling it a lottery as if that means that you're going to somehow win big on the other side, and it's still so uncertain?

Chris Jackson: 32:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. So the the answer to that question is no, it's just it's not enough to just provide opportunity to be entrepreneurs in the market now, because not everybody wants to be an entrepreneur, right? Um? So, to that end, I think that that is a part of it. But also in in shouts out to maryland and michigan, too.

Chris Jackson: 33:12

There's maryland specifically, though in this case, since we were talking about it, there's a reinvestment act, or part right, for communities that have been identified as negatively and disproportionately impacted right.

Chris Jackson: 33:27

So you're right in that there has to not only be a line item for opportunity as an entrepreneur. There needs to be a line item for reinvestment into community. There also needs to be a line item for reinvestment into community. There also needs to be a line item for recidivism and workforce development and an opportunity outside of being a direct license holder, right, so I think you're right. As we, as states, become more sophisticated, I think they're realizing it's just not enough because in Michigan, albeit, they are promoting opportunities to do more in communities and you know you could be a gold star level, silver star level, silver, bronze star level right, so they're promoting wanting businesses to be good community partners, as businesses should, by the way but I think in a lot of ways, other states are looking at it and saying no, we need to make it necessary, and we'll do that by taking away from taxes that we collect in order to give back to some of these municipalities and counties.

Ben Larson: 34:34

I can only imagine that your role with the Legislative Black Caucus has given you kind of a broader lens of how to think about this and you've seen some of the successes in the broader landscape. Can you kind of enlighten us with you know a few of the mechanisms that you've witnessed in that kind of broader landscape and how it might improve the way we approach these equity programs in the cannabis space?

Chris Jackson: 35:01

Yeah, and not take it a step further too? Even right, like, not just the equity programs in the cannabis space, but just cannabis businesses period. Right, because you know people quickly forget that during COVID, at least here in Michigan, cannabis kept the economy afloat here, right? So I think there has to be a level of appreciation from states at some point to say, all right, we understand that we can't cross with federal funding, but what can we do to create grants, which you already do for small businesses period or subsections of small businesses? So the MEDC in Michigan would be the example of that but cannabis companies don't have access to that funding. So you have a legal market in theory, I guess, without access to all of the resources and technical assistance that other industries have access to.

Chris Jackson: 36:02

And so there's an ongoing discussion, particularly now where I'm at in my level the fact that I'm in Lansing more often than not with folks that are directors of these programs to say, okay, so we're talking about equity, let's go beyond, like social equity within cannabis, and let's just say, like, make it equitable for all industries, then Right, if you're going to allow for this, then why can't you allow for that?

Chris Jackson: 36:28

And and so a lot of my job now is is the ability to have direct access to folks that can make those decisions. So now I have like, in some ways, there's a person on the inside for the cannabis industry, um, that's having conversations, um with the director at the MEDC, director of Leo, et cetera, et cetera. Um, that that basically said, here's the industry, make it work, right. But now is realizing that there are certain things that other industries got access to that make them long-term industries in a state. And if you want cannabis to be the same, especially coming off of covid, right, and the fact that cannabis companies actually help the economy, um, then let's get creative about where we need to go strategically to make it happen.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 37:18

And so next week with NCIA, it's Lobby Days, I understand.

Ben Larson: 37:23

Lobby Days. Yeah, christmas Biggest week of the year for us, that's right, really excited, yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 37:29

So why don't you just tell our listeners what that's all about and anything they should know about it?

Chris Jackson: 37:36

Yeah, I'll say this much. I think that the NCIA's biggest strength National Cannabis Industry Association its biggest strength is our ability to galvanize people. So the largest and the oldest trade association, right. What that means is that we are driven by the people and all of our members, which is why we express ourselves as Main Street right Cannabis, and that there's a big tent that we have that folks fall under. And the goal is there are two things I think we all know that move Congress.

Chris Jackson: 38:16

And it's money right, which there isn't a ton of, by the way, in this industry, with the exception of a select few, which still isn't enough compared to big pharma or alcohol. That's an entirely different conversation, right, and the amount of people that are willing to speak up on behalf of the industry. And so, ncia, once a year, next week for us, we go to DC, coordinate meetings with, with our lawmakers, congress and senators, representatives and senators, just to say, look, this is, this is what's happening in the industry. We're on the ground, we're probably in your district, and so, whereas folks may get a local representative's staffer in their office, you know, in, let's just say, pontiac, Michigan, like where I'm from or you might get a person that works in the staff in your office in DC.

Chris Jackson: 39:18

This is really an opportunity to rub elbows and have direct conversations with our elected officials, just to say listen, this is in a coordinated way, where we see the industry going. We understand what you're excited about and what you're not excited about, but this is what you need to know based on the folks that are operating or are activists in the community in which you represent. And so we have, you know, generally speaking, usually about 100 people, but might probably closer to 150 folks this year, that are all descending on DC from around the country and really just making the pitch to Congress to say you know, in 10 years, a lot has happened and accelerated, but that doesn't happen without us 10 years or 11 years ago starting to go to DC and having these conversations, to be where we are now. Now, how do we accelerate growth in a way that makes sense, moving forward, and that's what we're looking forward to in DC next week.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 40:18

Building community is great, but when are the feds going to start listening? Is that a question?

Chris Jackson: 40:24

or was that rhetorical?

Ben Larson: 40:29

I mean just to piggyback on what Chris was talking about, like lobby days is when I really realized that every conversation matters and that's not rhetorical like it's. I would walk into rooms and you realize like every congressperson has a completely different perspective and knowledge set. And you know, walk into a, a florida senator's office actually the senator sitting there, not a staffer and he's like you know, you, you get into your, your monologue talking about cannabinoids and and thc and and cbd, and they're like why the alphabet soup? Why? Like it's like wait, well, you don't even know what tc and cbd are and um, and then back up.

Ben Larson: 41:19

He's like, it's like, all right, what's your knowledge? Like in in the questions that we would give, like, oh, can you please at least tell us the difference between hemp and cannabis? It's like, oh shit, that's where we're starting it. Okay, and and that's not the case with all of them some of them are very well educated on it and so, um, it's important to at least understand where all those conversations are at and if, if you can just educate them just a little bit, they have a better baseline. And then and sorry to steal a bunch of time here, but like there's two other things that I I learned on on our last lobby days, and one was that the staffers, the ones that you talk to, they're moving from office to office. They have the ear of these congressfolk, but they turn over like every 18 months, and so it's like the opportunity to go there and like talk to a new person every time and educate a new person every time, someone that might influence policy. Every conversation does matter, and it's an insane process, but it's an incredibly important work.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 42:27

Well, you guys told me, even even if I'm a little fed up with the pace of progress in DC well, we're getting close to the end of the hour and I think there's something so unique, Chris, that you have in your professional portfolio that we just can't not talk about, which is that you own a professional basketball team, and I would just love to hear more about that, even if it's just for a couple of minutes, and I think our listeners would too.

Chris Jackson: 42:55

Yeah, that's cool. Appreciate you for asking the Pontiac Pharaohs. We're a part of the TBL, which is the basketball league. The 36 teams around the country Right Been around for about seven years. The league, our team, has been around for two seasons now.

Chris Jackson: 43:12

We were in Lansing, michigan, and as soon as I got the opportunity to bring the team back to my hometown, pontiac, which we love, our Detroit Pistons they aren't doing so great, right, but it also costs a lot to be able to go watch the Detroit Pistons play. So, to build community around a team where you have access, the community has access to players. We go to schools, we partner with school districts and there's a workforce development component, economic development component, just a quality life component, and so I've always wanted to own a team. It really happened when, when I was with Sticky and we approached the league about sponsoring the entire league, they weren't that progressive Plenty of heroes that they are, so they weren't that progressive Plenty of pharaohs that they are, so they weren't that progressive. However, what ended up happening is they said but we do have a market in Michigan, are you interested in being a part of it? And my answer was absolutely, let's do something special. Moreover, I think what I have, or had an opportunity to do with this league too, is really talk about influence of cannabis related to athletics and sports. Um, so, going into a league as a cannabis advocate, in a league that wasn't as progressive at the time, where contracts stated that, you know, individuals can't consume cannabis right, just based on the limited amount of knowledge that they had, we've been able to shift league-wide contracts in some ways, just to say, as long as you're not a detriment to the team, because cannabis obviously impacts. We know everybody differently, and even athletes. You know Megatron.

Chris Jackson: 44:57

Calvin Johnson right, who played for the Detroit Lions Hall of Famer, was talking with him on another podcast and he basically said listen, like everybody does it In a lot of ways, like most people do it. I should say that, If you hear about it, though, it's because it's the third time that this person has probably gotten in trouble. It though it's because it's the third time that this person has probably gotten in trouble, right, and so so there are major leagues. As pharma and as alcohol shifts, major leagues are also starting to shift, in that Calvin Johnson's company, primitive, is now the official CBD of the Detroit Tigers, and so we're starting to see it before our eyes, but what ends up happening is you take minor level leagues right Like double A triple A leagues.

Chris Jackson: 45:51

You try different things and if it works, then it gets elevated right, and that's what we're starting to see when it comes to the cannabis industry, cbd industry, maybe even hemp in general, and I'm just happy to be able to be a part of influencing that. When it comes to our league and all of the cool things that we get to do. As far as, just like you know, we don't have NBA money, marketing dollars and or we don't have. We don't pay the same amount of money, but we are very much a developmental league for everybody that's involved in it and I've enjoyed it so far. So I appreciate you for asking. Sorry, I got a little long winded, but yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 46:28

I mean, what a flex. You said, hey, I want to advertise with you. They said, no, we won't take your cannabis money, but you could own us instead or own a team.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 46:38

Own a team. I love that. You know we we had a Joyce Sonali on a couple of weeks ago and she was the founder of the Cannabis Media Council and talked a little bit about just the the restrictions around cannabis sponsorship and media and and paid ads, and so I think you're just bringing it to light in a new way but also but also taking it apart brick by brick by, by being a cannabis advocate and and putting yourself in a public place. So really cool to see what happens next from all of that. And yeah, I want some gear. I love the logo.

Chris Jackson: 47:14

I'll get you some shirts, plenty of basketball shirts.

Ben Larson: 47:17

Chris, like you know what's on the horizon for you this year. What are you excited about? You know, yeah, what's got you fired up in the industry right now.

Chris Jackson: 47:26

Yeah, man, that's a good question To Anna Rae's point. Things are moving slowly, but they're also moving faster than they ever have before.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 47:36

Right Related to our industry.

Chris Jackson: 47:38

So it's both at the same time before, right, related to our industry, so it's both at the same time. For me it's really so. Okay, I'll give you a quick example of something. So, basically, there's a artist, musical artist that I respect that when they go out on tour there's like these pocket of songs, right, there's these pocket of songs that at the end of the concert are like the songs that everybody wants to hear.

Chris Jackson: 48:10

And for me, and similar to this artist, if I'm doing the same songs that I did from the previous album, it means I'm not evolving, right, like I'm not.

Chris Jackson: 48:19

I'm not evolving as a professional, as an artist, as an entrepreneur, public servant, whatever the case is. And so you really see it play out in my cannabis journey, from running for office to with being with Sticky as an operator, to, you know, the NCIA phase of things, not the team, and really it's just a question of what comes next. Obviously, I'm in a public servant role in some ways, and so it's really, what can I do to advance economic development, legislative development, specifically in communities of color across michigan, in the peer view that I have, but also maintaining that cannabis can very much be a part of that process? Right if, if done the right way, if, if there's a strategic path that makes sense for there to be this nucleus of economic advancement policies, community advancement and cannabis really playing a part in helping make that happen. I think that's really like the next iteration of my professional career, given like the space that I'm in. Did that make sense Absolutely? It made sense Absolutely.

Ben Larson: 49:41

I love that. I love it yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 49:44

Chris, this has been a pleasure. I'm going to hand over the mic to you for a last call, which is our ending of the show, where we give you an opportunity to plug whatever you want your call to action, call to someone to go to your website, whatever it is, um, but thank you for being here. And, chris, what's your last?

Chris Jackson: 50:04

call, last call. Last call is it's five o'clock somewhere, so we need to probably get an alcoholic beverage. Ben, you got something for me with some thc in it. Um no, I just I look. I I appreciate the work that y'all are doing. We were talking a little bit earlier. It's not easy to be consistent with what you're doing and do it in a way that's actually entertaining, sure, but also productive and educational at the same time, and it's very hard to have that chemistry take place. So, appreciate what y'all are doing, what y'all mean to the market.

Chris Jackson: 50:40

I think that everyone that's interested in being in cannabis can mean something to the market. You just have to find out what your niche is. Not everybody needs to be an entrepreneur. Not everybody has to have a license, not everybody wants one, but there's a way in which you can be affiliated that continues to move the needle forward, based on whatever it is we need in order to move the market forward.

Chris Jackson: 51:06

Now I'll take a step back and I'll say that's a very important thing to say, because, yes, there are subsections of the cannabis industry and everybody has different interests and different needs, but we're also basically a post-prohibition industry, and so there needs to be some level of collectivism, at least in public right, in order for things to continue to move as they have been.

Chris Jackson: 51:34

And then, as the industry grows in terms of being legal around the country and from a federal perspective and from a state perspective, then subgroups start to make more sense, sub-interests start to make more sense. So never forget what you're doing it for, but understand that if we're fractured and divided, like other industries have existed a lot longer than we have, and they know how to play to that destructiveness, that could be the cannabis industry, and all of a sudden it looks like to your point earlier, something that we didn't sign up for to begin with, and even if it feels that way now, it can get a lot worse very quickly, and so I'm just here to call for a sense of unity. Families fight right, but at the end of the day, they also, like the good ones, have each other's back, and so whatever we can do at NCIA to continue to help try to mend burned bridges, potentially, and or build new relationships like I'm certainly here to do that, as is everybody that we're associated with. So thank you again.

Ben Larson: 52:46

Amazing. Well, chris, it's such an honor to have you on the show. You mentioned Chris Crane earlier, who we both have probably acknowledged that they're big shoes to fill. That's right. I am super appreciative of the energy and vision that you bring New blood, a lot of energy, and I think the industry is going to be better off for it. So appreciate you doing the hard work and being on the show, of course, and super excited to hang with you next week. All right, see you soon. Thank you, all right, bud. Talk to you soon. Nra All right, bud. Talk to you soon. Anna Rae another one in the bag. That was a great conversation.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 53:27

I want to hang out with Chris in person. I'm kind of bummed that was over Zoom, but I'll take what I can get.

Ben Larson: 53:33

All right, Well, lobby days 2024, maybe 2025. All right, folks, as we wrap up, remember that the dialogue doesn't have to end here. We invite you to continue these conversations and we'd love to hear your thoughts. Who would you like to see on the show? What topics would you like to have us cover? We're immensely grateful for you. Our audience, your engagement, encourages us to keep bringing you these thought-provoking conversations. So if you've enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe and share High Spirits with your colleagues, your friends and, heck, your family. Thank you to our teams at Firtosa and Wolfmeyer for your continuous support in our spirited journey and, as always, remember folks. Stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your spirits high Until next time. That's the show.