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The Whole Shebang
The Whole Shebang Podcast is a space to explore our collective awakening, often through the lens of unifying the Divine Feminine and Masculine in order to experience our most whole lives.
Each week Jennifer connects with various teachers, authors, friends, heart centered leaders and creators on topics such as coming home to ‘Self,’ consciousness, sacred sexuality, manifestation, abundance, inner alchemy and personal growth.
These conversations are aimed at supporting people in connecting to their own inner knowing, power, and divinity, to enlighten their lived experience, and move people towards their fullest potential. The Whole Shebang Podcast is here to create an energetic space and channel where people are invited to re-member who we are as individuals, and as a collective.
It's with all the love, and so much joy that we invite you to to buckle up buttercups, because we’re diving in! - xx
The Whole Shebang
43. Navigating Dating, Career Change, and Self-Worth with Paul Stoltzfus
When I was younger (like High-School-Younger) I wished I could hear the “guy” conversations and get in their heads. Now, I’m not sure that they wanted the same thing… but either way, this chat felt like that. My friend Paul and I sit down and have a meaningful transparent and real conversation. About career changes, and life changes and like any good “girlfriend chat” would, this one juts around like a hummingbird making its rounds.
We call each other on misconceptions, talk about what we’re learning in life, and share our challenges as we shoot the shit about dating. Dating after divorce. Dating in a setting where you want to have a juicy polarizing relationship… and how we’re working on figuring that out.
Come shoot the shit with us, proverbially. It’ll be fun, I bet!
xx - Jen
4:19 Life Transition and Purpose Discovery
14:49 Unlearning and Rediscovering Self-Worth
22:28 Navigating Masculine and Feminine Energies
35:25 Exploring Masculine and Feminine Energies
50:06 Listening to Your Gut Instincts
56:00 Navigating Vulnerability and Relationships
1:07:55 Exploring Divine Masculine and Feminine
A Note From Paul: “I’m pretty much ‘what you see is what you get.’ This season of life has become a surrender experiment not so much that I chose it but that all other paths ended and I had to choose a new one. I chose to go back to driving truck, and of all the commercial truck driving opportunities picked one that helps People with Blessings of Hope.
Any business I am a part of or build will help people who can’t help themselves and alleviate their pain and suffering. In addition to driving truck I coach real estate agents to find their purpose, live more, and do so more slowly. To settle into their bodies and trust their knowing within. I’ll be doing the “man work” for the rest of my life but first this next year or so I’m going all in to learn more about how to BE and less what to DO. Till next time!”
Connect with Paul
IG: @paulstoltzfus
Facebook: @paulstoltzfus
Explore Coaching with Paul
https://stan.store/paulstoltzfus
SUBSCRIBE and WATCH on YouTube
Download Jen's FREE Top 25 book list (Shebang Shelf)
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If a woman gets into her masculine, I tend to freeze or fawn and I have a shame response. I learned this in relationships. When the woman I'm dating gets into her masculine, I kind of freeze or fawn, I fake dead and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I guess I can do this, and I kind of like start, I'm making myself small, I shut down in a flash. Now, that's if it's done without my permission. This is weird. This is weird. This is like complex Paul. If it's done with my permission, oh, I'll lay back and let you treat me Like that's freaking awesome, but if you overpower me, hell no. This is how I learned that I'm probably more dominantly masculine. If a woman is just becomes very feminine, I become masculine automatically and I don't faint or feign.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the whole shebang. I'm Jen Briggs, your host. Let me tell you what you're in for here. Many of us have been running at breakneck speed, functioning mostly in our heads, and we've suffered from disconnection, burnout and lost passions. I believe it's because we functioned in part and not in whole. So we're exploring a new path, embracing intuition, creativity, playfulness and connection in all of life. It's vibrant, powerful and magnetic. So come on with me and buckle up Buttercups. We're diving in All right loves. It's 1055 pm on Publishing Eve, which means it's Wednesday night at my house. My daughter's trying to sleep in the other room and she keeps telling me to be quiet, so I'm whispering the intro for you.
Speaker 2:This episode is with a friend of mine, paul. We have actually never met in person, but we've worked in the same industry, we've gotten to know each other well over the interwebs and social media and he's been just a friend and follower of the podcast and on this journey with the masculine and feminine, both in his work life and also in his dating life. And so in this episode we have what feels like a good girlfriend talk, but with a guy, and so he talks about dating after divorce and we do some fun and prompt to like role play of switching masculine and feminine dynamics. You hear a little bit about his story of career change, a little on neurodivergence and a bunch of other just fun stuff. It's a windy, genuine, just like conversation at a coffee shop that you could be on a fly on the wall for. So I hope you enjoy it as I whisper my sweet nothings to you. All right, enjoy. Welcome to the whole shebang, paul. Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm your one student that's in the front of the row asking all the awkward questions, and I'm learning the things, just like that.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Well, this is what this is about for me, too. It is about learning right and just connecting with people. So let's start with like who you are, and you can take that wherever you want to go. Who are you?
Speaker 1:So I'm Paul, a super curious George, and I used to think I'm a slow learner, but I realized I'm just a deep learner and so I don't just learn things to learn them, I always learn them to actually do the things later. Um, like, an example of that is when I was 14, I went to a local college and they said well, you can't sign up for classes, you don't have a GED yet. So I went home I was like, oh, and then I got this little pamphlet that said, hey, adult continuing education, right, ace. So I looked on there, what are the requirements for adult classes? And they were none.
Speaker 1:So I went back with my checkbook and signed up for an accounting class, took the first class and about three classes and I asked the guy. I was like, hey, you just give us books to read. Then we talk about the books. Can't I just read the books and learn the things and do them? He's like, yeah, I guess you can. Then I said why would I ever go to college? And I forgot about college. So who am I? I'm curious, I read books and I learned some things, but I miss a lot. And then I listened to people and they I let them convince me to go the wrong way and I let them convince me to go the wrong way.
Speaker 2:Ooh, okay, there's stuff here. Okay, let's talk a little bit. I know that we didn't plan on talking about this, but I think it's helpful for people to have context, and how we know each other is through real estate, and we have the same position. You're down in Ohio, right?
Speaker 1:No Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania so close to Philadelphia yeah.
Speaker 2:You're in Pennsylvania, okay, I no. Pennsylvania, pennsylvania, philadelphia yeah, you're in Pennsylvania, okay, I'm sorry I got that wrong.
Speaker 1:Just outside of. I'm a corn guy, so I'm a man of the corn. Of course, Ohio is corn too. Right, I teach lessons from the corn, but I'm not children of the corn. Just outside of Philly, in Amish country, I was actually Pennsylvania. Dutch was my first language, Whoa yeah. So my parents left the Amish and then we were Mennonite and now I'm heathen and full circle. I'm amazing. So slippery slope out.
Speaker 2:So your parents were Amish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they actually left the Amish just after I was born, so I was born into very high stress environment, probably a cortisol baby, like a drug baby, oh gosh.
Speaker 2:And then they became Mennonite.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So they had a conversion experience and, um you know, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and now she'll be saved. They left the Amish. The Amish didn't like that idea, because the Amish believed that you just do good works and you might get to heaven. Oh wow. Okay. But the evangelical movement said, hey, if you believe in Jesus you will get there Assurance of salvation.
Speaker 2:Okay, and now you're a heathen.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't not believe in Jesus, but I also believe in the universe and quantum physics.
Speaker 2:Stardust and all that.
Speaker 1:I don't know about stardust, I'm more of like the banks and the sun, moon, stars, and then someone else brings the fun.
Speaker 2:Okay, that was a fun little tangent. I we could do a whole episode on that, but I, uh I do think it's interesting to have that, uh, not even in the background. That's probably been somewhat in the foreground of your life and it's shaped how you view things and how you grew up and the evolution that you've been on, so okay, so there's this background of that. And then you worked um in the same position I did as a team leader. Um right, for how many?
Speaker 1:years, so it's most people that know me now know me, as you know, Keller Williams team leader, so that CEO like the most turned position in the company and you are a cog in a machine that eats you alive.
Speaker 2:Oh, he just is saying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it also is a thing that taught me everything I need to know about business that I had missing in my life.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so from 2019 till about last year this time I was a team leader. Before that, though, I spent most of my life in lawn care and growing things, so creating environments that grew things like. You can't force grass to grow, you just create an environment. I got into the team leader position because my lawn care company was not doing that great. Post-divorce, we had to figure out if we sell the company or what's it worth, and we ended up just selling it, dividing the proceeds, and then I prayed and I was like God. I don't know if I can believe in you or not, but here goes Just like Aerie Hart, my three-year-old, she goes and hides in a clothes rack at Target and says Daddy, come find me. I was like all right.
Speaker 1:God, I'm out, Like I'm out for this fun time after divorce. But if you're for real, give me an opportunity by Christmas. So I prayed this half-heartedly in March of 2019. Didn't hear anything Week before Christmas.
Speaker 1:The OOP then called me and said hey, paul, I have a business opportunity. He called me three days in a row. I never called him back, because I don't call back unless you give me a reason to call back. Don't just like sales, call me the day before Christmas. They said I have a business opportunity. I called him back immediately and say hey, dude, is this something for now, six months or a year from now? Because if this is for a year from now, call me in a year from now. Two weeks later I was hired. Wow.
Speaker 1:KPI fit, but I was overexposed, underdeveloped and I got developed pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, that position I will say would like. There is nothing like being refined like fire and we talk about no pressure no diamonds in that role has taught. I would not do it differently. I would do that whole thing again. But I don't know that people really have an understanding of what that position is until you're in it.
Speaker 1:So actually I thought about that. I was like should you tell people what they're getting into? And I actually think not.
Speaker 2:I don't think there's any way to tell them what they're getting into.
Speaker 1:Think about when you were a parent, if you would have signed up. Like are we going to raise kids for 18 years? Hell, no. No.
Speaker 1:But when you're just having fun and make the babies like that's easy, and then you do it, yeah, and same thing. Like hey. They kind of got me with like hey, do you want to be a CEO? And I was a CEO of lawn care and landscaping. I knew how to be a CEO, but I had no idea what this is going to be Like. I was so naive. It was ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you did that for a few. The ups and downs, yeah, oh, yeah, so you did that for a few years. And what I would like to ask you about is, like you came to a crossroads and then you just recently made a transition, a big jump.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so I was successful, for my at my first office went from a hundred million to 500 million in production. You know what that means. So I recruited well quickly. But once I recruited all the 10 to $30 million teams I I didn't care like to hire people that were just getting production. I was bored out of my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:And so, but I, looking back, I thought it was that, but what it really was is, in that time I slowly became more feminine, actually like people-pleasing-ish, and I'm type A masculine naturally, but I shifted completely and I burned the F out because I was behaving in a way that I wasn't naturally so and outside of work I didn't take enough time to regenerate in my way.
Speaker 1:So I moved to another office because I was doing so well. And that next office I was terrible, Like I was not worth my $75,000 salary a year and I would have fired myself.
Speaker 2:I love your honesty with that Like yeah.
Speaker 1:And that was June last year. And so then I left that and I was like, okay, I want to be a coach because that's what we're taught Look the MREA, we're taught how to be a coach. I know how to coach realtors. But I was still in that burnt out state and the coaching business did not pick up. Now I did connect with three solid clients that I coach one-on-one and I started a group, but I realized that I had a lot of work to do to know how to beat Paul, and so now I'm kind of starting from the ground up again.
Speaker 1:It was like a crater just like building and I don't even care so much about being a big rich guy with a jet and flying the world. The job I have now is I drive tractor trailer and I deliver food to people that need it, and that's actually more aligned with my purpose. Like I like to help people, but especially people that can't help themselves. My mom had foster kids and I think that's where that kind of came from, and so that's more my purpose.
Speaker 2:So how did you? How did you know I mean, maybe this might be, I'm answering my own question Did you know it was time for a change because you felt like you weren't doing well, or were you feeling called to this opportunity that you have now?
Speaker 1:So I got called to it because my bank account kept going and you know there's support payments and like, if you don't do that, you go to jail and pay for your car. They take your car and so I wish I could say I was really called to and I listened to the whisper, but no, like I needed a job.
Speaker 2:Paul, I wanted something more spiritual here. Where is the stardust?
Speaker 1:The stardust is when I looked at opportunities I'm like, hey, what am I good at? What can I do? And I can drive a truck. I had a CDL license since I was 18. Yeah. And I got awards. I won $500 and a belt buckle for being the top tractor driver in Pennsylvania. So I'm like a redneck. I know how to use my hands. So the thing that I can do that's not even hard is drive equipment.
Speaker 1:It doesn't really matter what I figured out, and so I very quickly became one of their really good tractor trailer drivers. But here's the nuance, here's where it gets spiritual. It's not that spiritual, but I was looking for jobs with my CDL license, right, yeah, and that was listening to you, and I think the one guy was talking about masculine energy and just like listening to the voice within and your purpose I forget exactly which one, because your episodes all run together and it's all just goodness, right, thank you, yeah. And so I was looking for CDL jobs on Indeed and then there was like hundreds of them and so I started applying like three a day, and not getting callbacks was embarrassing. And the interviews I did get they're like your resume shows you were a CEO of a Keller Williams, you were this, and a long time ago you were a truck driver, like how could you be a truck driver now?
Speaker 1:Until blessings of hope. And I was like what I run past that place every day or every week for the last five years why not work for someone that actually has a purpose? That's aligned for me and it made about the opportunity was the same amount of money. Then I was like I don't want to do that because what if they're too churchy? And they like make me pray and make me get uncomfortable? And then I was like, well, maybe the Sunday school answer is the right answer.
Speaker 2:Which is what. What's the Sunday school answer Like what would Jesus do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I did an interview and he was like oh, I don't know if you're going to always be a truck driver, but if that's where you want to be now, we have a spot for you.
Speaker 2:Cool.
Speaker 1:And hired me that day, cool. And three days later I was behind the wheel of an 18 wheeler.
Speaker 2:What a different world. There's a lot of that side. Okay, I want to talk about you started. You started our time together by saying, like you love to learn.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh yeah, heck yeah.
Speaker 2:So what are you being taught right now? What are you learning right now?
Speaker 1:I'm probably on fucking myself. Like you know, that book it's really.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know the book.
Speaker 1:You did so. It's a yellow book and it's about unlearning the social constructs yellow book and it's about unlearning the social constructs. Okay, which ones are you unlearning? Probably the thing about face it till you make it, or it's like all the stuff they tell you to white knuckle your way to success. Yeah. Um, like, for instance, you know, aim high, set your goals high and then you'll figure out how to get there. Or if you can dream it, you can do it. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's actually even true. Like, just because you can dream, it doesn't mean you can do it. Maybe, but it might not mean I want to. Hmm, like my dream is to be in a jet, travel the world in a private jet, running marathons, just telling people random stories, mm-hmm. But I don't know if I ever have a jet. But in the meantime I can be talking to you, telling random stories and run marathons in my backyard.
Speaker 2:You must have a big backyard.
Speaker 1:No, it's oh right, true, yeah, my neighborhood, you know, this moment right here reminds me sometimes, if I'm not the riverbanks, I need someone to guide me, because I'm just rambling.
Speaker 2:I'm going to take. We're going on a journey.
Speaker 1:So I trust you to be the riverbanks, all right.
Speaker 2:Okay, I hear you. I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you're unfucking yourself right now. You're learning some things that you've learned, and we started also talking about the masculine feminine thing. Let's come to that. Yeah. What? Tell me what you're learning about that, how that's impacted you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, as as a recruiter, you have to learn how to listen to people and hold space for people and get on your feels and people act on emotion, all that. So what I did is I learned how to do that. Like sit across from you, look into your eyes, say what do you really want? What's more important time or money? Like don't you feel yourself cringe right now? And I would say, like, what's more important time or money? Or or is it a feeling? And what I learned I just randomly said one day because the person didn't respond to time or money, and so then I kind of sat back I said, or is it a feeling? And she just started crying. It's like, yeah, it's a feeling. And in that moment I realized she's like, yeah, it's a feeling. And in that moment I realized, for one thing, I knew what the real question should be and I realized I don't know how to answer that question.
Speaker 2:What's the question? What should it be? Is it the feeling?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a feeling. Okay, I think it's more, and the line to that is like what's your purpose? Like what should you feel like when you're doing this? What part of you should you be selling real estate from?
Speaker 1:And people need a guide to get back into their body and feel what they're doing, like even in a conversation. Stop counting your conversations, like just make your conversations count and at the end of the day you might want to count them and put it on a spreadsheet, but in the moment, like when you and I are talking, we just have to make our conversation count.
Speaker 2:How do we do that?
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, we got to see that we are counting the conversations and we're white knuckling our way to something like just realize how we're doing it wrong now conversations, and we're white knuckling our way to something like just realize how we're doing it wrong now.
Speaker 1:Um, probably living someone else's goal for us, whether it's what you imposed on yourself, like hey, I think I should make $250,000 a year. Well, that's a made up number. You know, with real estate, 250,000 is kind of the new 100,000. Um, and if you're not making 250,000, you must be a loser realtor. My definition is you might, you might look at a number to set your goal, but really just set a direction and trajectory and then see where the adventure takes you. Like I'm just going to help people and I'm going to learn more and more about myself and let's see where it takes me. So my coaching I do that. I ask people what are your goals. But after asking my goals, I usually ask them, like who made that goal up for you? Like where did that come from and do you really believe that goal? And then, after about three months of them not hitting their goal, I say, hey, look, do I see the same numbers as you? Like yeah, and I said, well, how do you feel about not hitting the goal we talked about?
Speaker 1:And that's kind of a hard moment to sit in and it's usually the quietness or just the silence that actually helps them hear themselves, and I never really had the answer to what they should do until I read Worthy from Jamie Kern Lima.
Speaker 2:I just got that book from somebody, but I haven't read it yet, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you have all the I just talked about this morning, if you have all the confidence, growth and contribution those three I'm looking at the note down here confidence, growth and contribution but if you don't feel worthy, your fulfillment is missing. Fulfillment is missing. To really be fulfilled, the only path to fulfillment is internally feeling worthy like a baby.
Speaker 2:So do you think that's the answer to the question Like, how do you want to feel?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's worthy.
Speaker 2:It's everybody. Do you think everybody wants to? That's the everybody's answer to the question.
Speaker 1:So the law of the universe? Yes, like what you, what we really need to get to the core of it. Now, here's the thing I learned things and I'm like. Later on I learned something that's even more core, but right now the core is core I'm at is the worthy question, because if you, if, if I don't feel worthy, I am hitting my numbers, making the money contributing to my neighborhood, but I still don't feel fulfilled.
Speaker 2:How do you feel now?
Speaker 1:So, the last three weeks I said first time in since 2019 that I feel feel fulfilled again. But then I listened to the next chapter in worthy and it said what are you putting off because you feel you're not worthy?
Speaker 2:Okay, what's your answer to that?
Speaker 1:Well, and the deeper question is what are you putting off? Because you're waiting on maybe your weight to be perfect or your bank account to be perfect? Like, is it a relationship? Perfect, like, is it a relationship, is it a business? And for me it's probably. I don't know if it's a business, because the coaching business is the business that I would be putting on Like, and I already do that, but accelerating that, um, I think the biggest thing that feels like all queasy and weird is the relationship.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about it.
Speaker 1:I don't know how to talk about it. What do you mean? Um, like this is where I get all giddy and I'm like I don't even know how to feel about it.
Speaker 2:Feel about? What? About not having a relationship about the one you're looking forward to? No, the one I'm looking forward to, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I do know how to date after the divorce and to go after. Um, uh, got, the switch that changed was right after divorce. I went after comfort and sensation, like chocolate chip cookies, eating really good food, drinking and having dates that are just fun and fun comfort and sensation that lasted until it didn't.
Speaker 1:Then after I was like this is weird. Then, about a year and a half ago, got into a relationship. It was the first relationship. I was like, oh, wow, like I can actually have a second chance at life again. Six months in, I can figure out why, just like St Paddy's day weekend. No, bye-bye. I'm sorry. Me and your family aren't good enough for you, paul. Country boy's not good enough and there's a lot of backstory to it. But what I learned since in your podcast was I was too much in my feminine energy, pleasing and not having boundaries, and I turned her off big time. She started momming me because I started being the boy that left her mom me. Okay.
Speaker 1:So right, so your podcast. I think it was Farrakh, that might have been the episode that was the juiciest for me. Yeah. And the John Wineland thing and the feminine cleanse. Yeah, yeah. I was like, oh boy, this is definitely what I need. So what did?
Speaker 2:you learn. What have you learned? What have you experienced?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So first of all, I what I learned is the relationship ended because I got into my. I was in my feminine just pleasing Like she was fixing up her house. I just helped her with everything. On Sunday nights, when I said, hey, I got to leave by three, to be home by five because I need my sleep and I need to run, so it's oh, can we just go out for another drink?
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, okay, yes, I could, like I didn't hold my boundary which which I thought I was just pleasing her, but I learned later that she was probably test subconsciously, she was probably testing my boundary and I let her persuade me. I know you, I don't even know how to share this right, except I realized I left her push my boundaries. I didn't keep mine and after doing that a couple of times, the actual breakup was we were getting ready to go out for coffee and I wear trucker hats, you know cause? I'm a country boy and I had it like up weird. And she's like you're not gonna wear your hat like that. Are it like up weird? And she's like you're not gonna wear your hat like that, are you?
Speaker 1:I was like, yeah, I am. And what? Are you gonna tell me what to do? We got into this stupid fight and I was like and she's like well, you never tell you, never let me tell you what to do, you never let me contribute. I was like, yeah, I let you contribute all the time. In fact, I pretty much go your way all the time, but this one, no, like don't tell me how to wear a fucking hat.
Speaker 2:Looking back, it's embarrassing, right but it's real this is the stuff that happens, yeah and this is how we broke up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but in the reason we I think we could have talked through it, but there was probably other things that I did were ridiculous too, and she just didn't feel like the energy. She didn't have the energy to actually talk through the bridge that was blown up.
Speaker 2:Well, and you're right, there probably were like these underlying things, for probably both of you that were. This was just the thing that allowed it to come to an end.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't the real thing. So, okay, go ahead. You were going to say something else. Well, so, so, so, just the end of that is I realized the. The learning I made was I need to be a man and I know how to be a man, and when I switch and play the feminine too much, you just lose anyway. But I can't just have a stupid rigid, because then I'm just arrogant If I just say we're going to do this because I made it up Like that's like, I Trump you and that's a funny, that that's my Trump card and we know Trump is like the Trump card. Like that's just stupid, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But if I have a purpose like hey, I would love to stay for a drink, but you know what I need to go home by three, leave by three, to be home by five so I can sleep. Because you know what I really need to help more people next week Like that's the, that's my man, like he has a purpose and she would feel secure in me having a purpose that she couldn't pull me away from.
Speaker 2:I think that's my learning For sure. I think the purpose is that's really powerful learning. The purpose is like understanding, connection to purpose. But I also think that boundary setting is really like in the moment, as a woman, you're kind of like what? Like you, especially as a. This is a challenge for me and a lot of women like me, is that you, you know how to take control. I know how to, I know how to play the masculine right Like I know how to set the standards.
Speaker 2:So in a relationship and it's why I've been doing all the work that I'm doing, because it's easy to just translate that into a relationship and be like no, can we just do one more drink you? Know, how about we just do this, but then to have somebody push back and be like not tonight, babe, like I appreciate that, but we're not going to do that tonight, and this is why there's still a piece of me on the inside that's like, oh, that's hot yeah exactly. Yeah, set the boundary. That's kind of hot.
Speaker 1:What I tell you. I don't think I would have learned that until I heard that conversation between you and Farrakh.
Speaker 2:I think, it was. Was that the correct?
Speaker 1:episode Zarakh Zarakh. Yeah, thank you, because that's when I realized that, oh, we're not assholes when we set the thing. When we set the thing, but it has to be aligned with our purpose, like if it's just my made up reason. Like you know, kids they see through our made up rules and so it's kind of a nuance. You can't just like. I was asking myself what groups of men are the best in their masculine and I think it's kind of rednecks and hunters and fishers and men of the earth right and truck drivers?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know. I'm not going to categorize all men.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying from my perspective. But we think men are assholes when they make a reason for no good reason. Like no. I'm not going to do this just because I said it. That's a stupid reason. It's got to be aligned with a bigger purpose, and then it's juicy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, juicy, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking about the boundary setting thing, the purpose, and then I would also say, like taking initiative and having clarity. Those are really I feel that even in my friendships, whether it's with males or females, like I have some female friends who are just like I, just kind of like being in my masculine, and so when we hang out and they're like let's meet here at this time, I'm like, oh, thank God, you know, like it feels so good to not have to make the decisions and plan everything out. And so when you have somebody that just steps in and says, how about we do this at this time here, it feels really great that there's probably either she doesn't want to be in her feminine or she's testing it subconsciously, probably like will he?
Speaker 1:And I think I think subconscious is the key here, because I'm just thinking of some relationships and dating that I've learned. I also like to be able to switch you know, to be in a relationship where hey look, I'm tired from driving all week. Can you just plan everything and I just like go with your flow purposely move in your feminine.
Speaker 2:He purposely moves in his masculine. But a lot more than I'm reading right now is, of course we're going to ebb and flow between the two, but it takes communication. I'm like what does that feel like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if it's ebb and flow. I think it's actually switches. You know how in electronic boards there's dip switches, dual inline processor?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but I am learning. Thank you.
Speaker 1:So think about it about. There's like six switches, almost like breaker boxes, so a logic board might be set up for your computer to use a mouse and you set, the switches occur in certain ways so it can use a mouse.
Speaker 1:But what if you want to hook up a printer? Well now, everything's USB and automated. But back in the day, when you hooked up a printer, you switched it to be set up for a printer. The computer didn't ebb and flow into being a mouse or into a printer port. You just flip the switch and then it is the thing.
Speaker 2:So I don't think it's ebb and flow, Jen. I don't know if it's that easy for me.
Speaker 1:You can learn for it to be that easy?
Speaker 2:You think so.
Speaker 1:Heck yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, maybe I'm working on it.
Speaker 1:Do it right now, now. So how would your posture be if you want to get into?
Speaker 2:your feminine. You're masking right now. I mean, yeah, I can, I can, yeah, I can switch it. I mean people can't all see this, but yeah, I'm gonna sit up straight, I'm gonna put my shoulders back, I don't know yeah I felt myself kind of doing this when you get into your masculine no, no, you went into your masculine, I felt myself kind of doing this.
Speaker 1:When you get into your, masculine.
Speaker 2:No, no, you went into your masculine. I felt myself kind of relaxed.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, I just kind of like, like oh yeah, it polarizes it, but here's what I do If a woman gets into her masculine, I tend to freeze or fawn and I have a shame response, like for me. So I learned this in relationships when the woman I'm dating gets into her masculine, I kind of freeze or fall and I fake dead and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I guess I can do this, and I kind of like start making myself small Cause you're going to like shut down.
Speaker 1:Oh, I shut down in a flash.
Speaker 2:Yeah, huh.
Speaker 1:Now, that's if it's done without my permission. This is weird. This is like complex Paul. If it's done with my permission, oh, I'll lay back and let you treat me Like. That's freaking awesome.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 1:But if you like, op me, like, overpower me. I don't know, yeah, but I think now, if you go into your, this is what I learned too. This is how I learned that I'm probably more dominantly masculine. If a woman is just like, becomes very feminine and I become masculine automatically, and I don't faint or feign Like, I just kind of become it not a savior, but almost.
Speaker 2:That's like a. So much of what I've been reading is like okay, so as a woman, how can you pull out the masculine? And so they'll like I've heard the example of okay, you're both sitting on the couch and you're really hungry and you want to have dinner, but you, you want to start polarizing the relationship. So, my, as a woman, I could go okay, babe, we should do dinner. How about we go do this at this time? Let's get up and get going. But instead you like sit back in the couch, slink down a little bit and like oh, I'm hungry.
Speaker 1:Let's role play this. Do you want to role play?
Speaker 2:Sure Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, so do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, like oh, I'm really hungry.
Speaker 1:Oh you are, I'm too. No, this is the bad way to do it. Right, so now I'm going to keep, so now I have to be more feminine.
Speaker 2:So, if he's slinked back in the couch, I have to slink even lower, like I have to be more flimsy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, honey, you know what we should do. I've got an idea. I got two ideas actually, I don't know which one you're like best. Do you want a choice, or do you want me just to pick one?
Speaker 2:I want a choice.
Speaker 1:No, I'm going to pick one. Get ready, this is what I'll tell you. I want you to wear a flannel. Oh, you're going to tell me what to wear. Wear the most favorite flannel from my shirts and the sexiest jeans and I will take you somewhere. We're going to have some fun.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I role played this with some of my friends. We just for fun did it. We learned what it feels like to actually lead.
Speaker 2:And what does it? Feel like to you.
Speaker 1:To me. At first it felt like once I learned that my friend gave me permission to be it, I'm like heck, yeah, I'm in.
Speaker 2:Does it feel good to you then?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. But what I've learned is I have to ask like hey, I'd like to make a plan, and then I don't say am I allowed to? I just say I'd like to make a plan and then wait for her to see how she reacts, and she's like, oh no, I want to do this. I'm like, oh gee, she's not going to be feminine, like I'm okay, whatever, and I'm kind of upset. But I let do a lot of the asking because I'm testing too, like I am more conscious with how I'm testing now instead of unconscious.
Speaker 2:I think that's the biggest learning To see if she'll be feminine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here's the funny thing. I'm actually testing it with my daughters. Oh, this is actually fun, like my 11 year old. Last night I was like honey, what do you want to do tonight? It's like dad, why are you asking me that? I was like oh, okay, I tell you what. I have two ideas. We can either go line dancing or go out to eat somewhere I don't know what's open. And she was like oh, 10 minutes later she came back with this outfit, with her shirt, like tied up in jeans. I'm like oh, I know where we're gonna go.
Speaker 2:And she's like okay, what do you want to do tonight? It feels waffly and flimsy and like why don't you decide? You take the lead, but but saying like babe, I'm taking you out tonight. Or or like I'd love to have some quality time with you tonight and find a way to make that happen. Would you like to stay in or would you like to go out? And then, like some woman was like but what if he picks a thing I don't like? So John Wineland was like okay, then as a woman, your response, like our work in our feminine, is to be really naturally responsive, which means we're energetically open. So we can't help but respond. So if you're like, let's go eat sushi and I don't want sushi, if I'm energetically open, I will naturally go.
Speaker 2:Oh you know, and then you go okay, how about Mexican, you know? And eventually you hit the nail on the head and then it's like, okay. But then this woman was like well, what if I do that? And he still doesn't get it.
Speaker 1:And John Wineland was like well then, he's an asshole.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but he was like he's not getting it. But then she, but then he was like you know what you do would actually like lights. I'm curious to see if this, this is true for you. Like what lights? A masculine man up in a moment like that is when you throw like a little baby, like tantrum and I was like what really? So if he's like how about Mexican? And you go, I really don't want to. All of the men in the room were like that's adorable. I'm like are you serious?
Speaker 1:I have to tell you, for me, my first reaction was like, oh God, you're being so dramatic internally and then like, if I can pull through this will be fine, but what?
Speaker 2:if you love her and she's like babe, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So that's a new thing. I learned that her job isn't to respond in a way to make me feel good, it's just to respond yes. And even if she's whiny all the way, let her, she will eventually come out. And even if she's whiny all the way, let her. She will eventually come out. And like the more she tests me is probably testing me more.
Speaker 2:I think that you, providing that structure, gives her space to feel how she's feeling. And I think that there's this like with my girls I talk a lot about like you don't have to know why you're feeling the way you're feeling, but when we like, suppress it or try to fix it or figure it out, just like, let it flow through you, cause feelings are like thoughts like, just like, feel it and let it go through you and don't attach your identity to how you feel. It's just a feeling. But all my life I was taught to like, not feel. And and to your comment earlier about getting in our bodies, my whole life I was taught to not trust my feel. Not, it's not even about trusting your feelings, it's about feeling your feelings.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you know what I mean, like being numb to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or just like, well, you shouldn't be angry right now because you have that, that, that, that, that, or you shouldn't feel frustrated because we have things to be grateful for you. You know, like so, I was just out of tune with being in my body and that's everything. To the feminine.
Speaker 1:Right there. What you said, I think, is the learning I had. Yeah, the way I would phrase that, and I do to my kids. I'm like hey guys feelings is like poop, like you just eat food. Whatever you eat makes your poop Right. So if you eat stupid food, your poops are crazy. So whatever you ingest, like read, is how your feelings are going to come out. Here's a key thing, though If you hold that shit in, it gets toxic and you get sick, and I know it's kind of a graphic description, but our feelings need to flow, like peristalis moves the food through, and if you block it, you can't be ready to enjoy the next food?
Speaker 2:Paul, I don't know. I just can't get on board with this analogy, can?
Speaker 1:we change it. Okay, jen watch, no, no, no, watch this, let's talk about stagnant rivers. No, no, no. Okay, because stagnant river. If you have a stagnant river, can you enjoy the food you're about to eat?
Speaker 2:next, no, what do you mean? I don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 1:If you have to poop I'm not talking about poop. Okay, if you're sitting at the table and you have stagnant river, can you eat and enjoy a cookie? No, like you gotta let that through before you can even enjoy life, otherwise you actually and here's, here's, the key learning I realize I sometimes am not my body and I don't realize I have to go to the bathroom. Like there's actually like neurodivergent adults, we lose autonomy. What's that called Um? There's a word where you actually forget what your body needs from you. Like you forget to drink, you forget to eat, you forget to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2:This is a diagnosis.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it's. I mean, I'm definitely neurodivergent, I don't know what, but somewhere on that spectrum, Um. But I realized that I was raised in a household with one or two parents that are definitely on the spectrum. And so I never knew if I was just mirroring their behavior or if I'm also neurodivergent. But here's the fun thing Connecting to your divine masculine, divine feminine, actually supersedes all that craziness. I know I jumped another topic, but let's go there. It fit right here.
Speaker 2:What else do you want to say about that?
Speaker 1:Well, so the two books that messed me up or broke me open the most the most recent one is Worthy, by Jamie Kern and Lima, right, but the one last summer, right after my breakup, was well, no, it was before the breakup was Masking Autism. Masking Autism I learned about autism and ADHD and kind of that spectrum. The key is not to be autistic or ADHD or whatever you are. The problem is masking who you are and becoming something different, and it takes a lot of energy to mask oh.
Speaker 1:So we become incredibly tired. I know that's a whole other topic. The answer back the way back home is understanding the law of the universe, that there is a divine, masculine feminine and you become again and spend time in nature like the feminine cleanse. Here's another topic. I know we're at three, three topics deep Okay. But where you spend two or three hours per day going outside and looking for masculine and feminine energies in the natural world.
Speaker 2:Have you been doing that?
Speaker 1:Some Like that's the part of the whole challenge I have been kind of sucking on. I don't go out in nature enough.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that that was a part of the challenge to spend that much time in nature. Okay, what else is in it?
Speaker 1:So the the the feminine cleanse, which can go masculine cleanse, but John Wineland has the best video on just search John Wineland. But you can go Massey on cleanse, but John Wineland has the best video on just search John Wineland feminine cleanse. And the problem is is we are responding to a dopamine hits of people liking our comments or, let's say, swiping right on just like beautiful women, and then when they reply back, another hit turns out we actually respond more to those dopamine hits than actual relationship with the person that we're trying to swipe right on. So we become addicted like mice to crack cocaine. Feminine cleanse tells you delete all dating apps. Stop getting that dopamine hit from women, especially like giving you kudos, either liking your shit or whatever, and instead get your energy from nature, like drink water, not so much alcohol, and let nature nourish your soul.
Speaker 2:Do you feel it nourishing you when you spend time in nature?
Speaker 1:So for the first three months I didn't. It took about three months till I was like, oh, um. So for the first three months, I didn't. It took about three months till I was like, oh, okay, like I would, I got off the dating apps and then I kind of like reverted back. I got like back on the crack cocaine about three months in oh, this is dumb. But I immediately like deleted it again and, um, went out in nature. The key. You can't just delete the apps and say no to the thing. You have to replace it with something to nourish your soul, which is the nature piece, like drinking water, eating good food.
Speaker 1:That's why you eat more salmon, more fiber, barefoot outside. But our culture is actually created to be very insulating from the natural world. Like asphalt, concrete, rubber shoes, like almost everything that we do to be comfortable insulates us from the energy of the universe.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going to take us on a, on a tangent. I'm going to go on a journey with you.
Speaker 1:Go.
Speaker 2:I haven't, I haven't talked to anybody about this yet. So I listened to a podcast uh like four days ago, five days ago called why Isn't Everyone Doing this, and the host of it had on a man named Zach Bush. Zach is an MD. He was a doctor in epigenetics and I don't know what else he did and then he worked in hospice and then he started working on bio stuff in our gut, but also in the environment. He grew up, maybe similarly to Edith, in a Christian home. He preached for the first time at 14. And has been on this whole journey seeing the connection of all of the living things. So in this podcast he talked about how reading the gospel of Mary Magdalene like changed his world. Mary Magdalene, right, I just got this book.
Speaker 1:That's not in.
Speaker 2:That's not in the it's not canonical, we know it. Yeah, um. And then he went on to talk about the divine feminine and I've been like using this phrase, the divine feminine, but I actually took it out of my podcast intro because I was like I don't know that that's the theme of the podcast as much as it was, I'm not really sure. And I also took the word divine out because I'm like I'm kind of talking about energetics right now. I'm talking about the characteristics and energetics to kind of like the yogic masculine feminine stuff. The divine masculine feminine is like the male side of God and the female side of God, or the male side of the universe and the female side of it. So like where does that show up? And so he talked about how we've stripped, we've stripped a whole part of God. He didn't I don't even know if he said God and he said that the key to his being and becoming and feeling whole was reintegrating. That whole was reintegrating that like reintegrating.
Speaker 2:And so the feminine, the divine feminine is, is highly intuitive, and it's this idea that the patriarch, the patriarchy I'm going to put that in air quotes, but like the male form of religion has taught us in every facet of life, not just in religion, that the answers are outside of us. We need discipline, we need a savior, we need something other than what we have, but the feminine, the divine feminine, teaches us that everything we need is within us, and so then blending those two together. But so then it's coming back to this idea of like what is my intuition? I haven't, I just started reading the book and then the gospel of Mary, but like what I'm reading about her, and part of why the men at the time didn't want this included in the Bible, was that a lot of the divinity that she found was through sensuality or through her five senses, not just sensuality but that is sensuality, not sexuality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah sensuality, but and a piece of that is sexuality, but like, but absolutely but that was so.
Speaker 2:I think a part of why that was stripped is because, obviously, you can't control politics, you can't control religion, you can't control people if they feel empowered intrinsically, if they know that they have a knowing that goes so much deeper than what anybody on the outside can tell me about scripture, about God, like if I know that I have that power within me and that I don't need anybody else to give me the answers. Look out, nobody can control that anymore. You know what I mean 100%.
Speaker 1:No, I'm tracking 100% yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is kind of like. I feel like this. I'm like, oh my gosh, the teacher showed up when I was ready for it. But I'm like this is like a huge piece to this journey that I've been on over the last few years of like well, no wonder I've been bucking my religion and I didn't really know why, like I didn't know why I had to like deconstruct it and take it all apart.
Speaker 2:And then over the last three years, kind of finding myself just saying everything I need is within, like intuitively knowing that, intuitively knowing that, and now it's showing up in these two millennia old texts saying yeah, everything you need is here, jen.
Speaker 1:That's like I don't know if I'm excited or mad about that, because both I and I'm like, okay, I can't. If I could turn back time, I can't do that, right.
Speaker 2:Oh, you can sing too, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was a choir director.
Speaker 2:I almost went to grad school to be a choral director.
Speaker 1:You should have.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:I think the way to fix the world actually is through music and stage production like community theater.
Speaker 2:It's another form of art. That has just been, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's easy to bring back. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what happened, but we're here now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that intuition. I always had a very strong intuition, in fact. I intuitively knew the religious part of my spiritual experience was wrong, and so I didn't even ask questions, like at 14, they told us you have to dress this way, do this thing. So what did Paul do? What does he do? He reads books. So what did I do? I read whatever 66 books of the Bible in two weeks. Whoa.
Speaker 1:Whoa, straight through. You know, read a book of the Bible in a year. Well, you can do it in two weeks With one question. What does this freaking book say about clothing? Beginning to end, one question, and I found out it doesn't say jack. Except in leviticus it talks about how long the robes and tassels should be. So I'm like, okay, anything they tell me about what to wear, a mustache or not, or short sleeve shirt or whatever. I'm not gonna listen to that anymore yeah, and I just did my own thing.
Speaker 1:It got me excommunicated. But but I I did that with other questions and I just like oh, what did I learn? And so I listened to my intuition. I'm HSP, highly sensitive person. I often know before and more than other people.
Speaker 1:Like at church we had. We had like um ordinations, so three people were voted in and then had books up front to decide who's going to be the person picked and like six times in a row I guessed the right person. Before the evening the books randomly were picked. So somehow I don't know if and I would watch, like I went to the meetings and watched how they reacted and I watched the books. So it's not like I was in another room, so I don't know if it was luck, but after two or three times I think it's more than luck and so that kind of told me like, oh okay, you can just trust your gut, and most times I know, five to 10 years before something's going to happen, what's going to happen. But I'm now just becoming more aware of it.
Speaker 2:I'm curious to know how does your gut feel? How do you know what your gut is telling you?
Speaker 1:um, it's, it's as simple as if I see apple pie and want to eat it, like I like that apple pie, then it's pretty quiet. It's just like it's just a one thing. Or it's like oh, like, for instance, when there's three names, like jake, davey or john, like which one's going to be the bishop, like, oh, john's going to be the one so one just kind of rises to the surface for you. It's just kind of there.
Speaker 2:Huh.
Speaker 1:Do you feel a?
Speaker 2:sensation anywhere in your body.
Speaker 1:Um, I think it's probably more. I trust anything I feel when I'm calm, any any feeling I get when I'm excited or like upset. I don't trust that with Jack. Yeah. Like, the only thing I believe is when I'm not really thinking about it or not trying to think about it, and then something comes to me like, okay, that's the thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe this will be one of the staple questions I ask guests, cause I'm always curious to know if, if we're going to help people figure out what their knowing is, their inner you know, like, how do I tell people and cover what their knowing is and cause? I think for everybody it feels different or it shows up different, so I'm always curious to know how it's showing up for people.
Speaker 1:It's not always quiet because remember the episode you did about? Sometimes you just have to leap. Yeah, sometimes it scares the shit out of you, and the other feeling I get is when I feel queasy and like I'm going to almost pass out.
Speaker 2:That's when you know.
Speaker 1:I'm actually just leaning into that one, because most times when I feel that I don't actually go that direction, I actually scurry away, like I think I missed a lot of opportunities because I felt that queasiness like right now it's relationship wise. Because I felt that queasiness, um, like right now it's relationship wise, because I, I think I'm actually afraid of being wholly accepted, because I thought about it when I was young. I was often left at church or at the grocery store, like we have six kids, and so mom would leave, and then they forgot to take me, and so I learned early on it's no big deal, like, if they forget you, but I was just invisible, I was. Mom said you were the best kid, you didn't make any noise, you like didn't need anything but right, that should break your heart, right, yeah, and so to people who actually to I love the most, I expect them not to need anything from me and I can't expect anything from them.
Speaker 1:And so now to be thinking about a relationship, it's easier to be in relationship with someone that's like emotionally closed and to actually be in a relationship where I'm like I'm wholly seen. Like the thing that made me cry is someone said like hey, what if you're in a relationship that when you come home the kids come and give you a big hug and your love gives you big hugs, honey. How are you, no matter how dirty or crungy I am that day, from driving truck? And then we talk I've never had that. And so I start feeling queasy when I think about well, maybe I could have that Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, follow the queasiness in this case.
Speaker 1:I don't think I ever followed the queasy. And that's like right now I'm surprised I'm not crying, but it's just just the reality where I am. But I feel like sometimes I'm just seconds from crying, or laughing and it's always inappropriate which one I pick Inappropriate. Oh yeah, like in a funeral, I just want to laugh. Like there was funerals of my family where I just felt like laughing, but also in these serious moments, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think that's isn't it interesting. I just think, the more that I'm reading and talking to people to hear, like to get curious about what our bodies are telling us and and then to treat it like a science experiment a little bit like, oh, there's this queasiness, what if I lean into this? Or what if I open up to this a little bit more? What if I like what? What is this here? What if I let this surface right now? What if I move this through me? Like what, what happens? And then you can start collecting enough data to see patterns and be like oh, but I like this next queasiness.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I want to pull the trigger and be bold Like this is a fun thing.
Speaker 2:Wait what, what's happening?
Speaker 1:To ask someone out, right? Oh, okay, like this person, like the universe has been whispering a name. Yeah, it's not like the universe has been whispering a name, yeah, and I'm like, luckily, I have half a month to the end of my six-month feminine cleanse and I'm like you know what, I think I'm going to extend it to nine months so I don't have to make a decision.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're extending to avoid it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know. And here's the thing If the answer is within, I am going to sit with it and just spend more time being quiet with it.
Speaker 2:Don't avoid the discomfort is what I mean. I mean if you feel compelled to extend it, yes, but if you're just doing it to avoid the queasiness.
Speaker 1:Do you realize how hard that is? Like this is what I'm in the feels of right now, in May. What is this? April 29th going into May? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I even hinted to Aerie, and she's like Dad, I think you should probably extend your thing Like I don't know how she'd do, because it's scary for her too and she's 11, so I don't tell her much, but she knows enough that she's like. I think you should just never. But that's her right. I'm not gonna ask her for permission yeah but so asking for a friend, like with what you've learned about feeling these queasy things, are there ways that you would recommend I step into those? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I mean, if this particular situation is just like I'm feeling queasy about asking this person out when you're six months is up or nine months is up, I think that I think the queasy when I feel queasy, those are the jump moments. There's not a lot for me to process. Those are the moments when I'm like, oh my knowing is heavy, like, oh my, you know, it's just like, oh my gosh, there's nothing left to do but just jump, go ahead first. You know, like that's my when I get queasy moments, that's what that is for me. You could probably do the things just to also like move the actual physical energy through your body. You know, like workout, I don't know, but like I think if it, if it's an intuitive thing that's happening, yeah, you go for it.
Speaker 1:You know what's funny about this. Can I get a little bit more vulnerable?
Speaker 2:Yes, please, thank you.
Speaker 1:So in my twenties or no, 16, seven, 16 to 20, like my dating, like back then, I asked out, like the actual person I wanted to go out with and she said no yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that was an infatuation. But on the other side of that, then I actually wanted to connect with a few people but like I asked out the person, I was bold. Three people in a row said no. But here's what happened I slowly, methodically lowered what I would want. Like you, accept the love you think you deserve. And this is the vulnerable part. I feel like I accepted the love I deserved. I went for someone who I knew would not say no, that's real. And then, and then that relationship ended up having four beautiful kids and we just ran into hard times and I grew, and we grew differently and I'm against divorce more than ever, but I'm also against bad relationships more than ever, and so that whole like shame mix.
Speaker 2:Shame is such a dirty bitch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I hate it so bad. It's just it's so the book that I'm I've. It's taking me forever to get through women who run with the wolves Also. Actually I went, I almost did you, yeah, so I think it's taking me forever to get through women who run with the wolves. Also actually I went I read that one Did you, yeah, so I think it's for men too.
Speaker 3:I mean just kind of this idea of coming back to a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 2:But she talks about in there how like the damage of holding on to secrets and how everybody has, even if it's not a secret, secret it's shame is secret for most people and what that does to people and holding them back from their best and from how that impacts the other people in their lives.
Speaker 2:And so even you, just sharing this today, thank you for sharing what feels vulnerable to you, like you're not the only one that feels that, and you are totally worthy of every desire that you have a thousand percent to me Sometimes, that that I I agree with the worthy thing, but I'm like worthy Isn't even a question to me sometimes, because I think we all are inherently worthy. Yeah, we, we and that's the difference between me and Christianity Like I don't believe we're born broken and in need of somebody to save us from our brokenness. I believe we are born worthy of love and whole. There's nothing that makes us unworthy to begin with, so we don't have to earn anything back because we just are inherently worthy. So, whatever you, I'm not letting go of my standards. I just decided, like I'm going to be, I'm going to die single or I'm going to find somebody amazing, you know, like, and I think you should too. Don't like you raise the bar to wherever you want it and go after it, and like yeah, when I think that's true.
Speaker 1:Like I realized too this is kind of maybe weird to say this, but I don't know if it's in your podcast Another one is that for men it's easier to find, like there's a multiple women that love could be enough for them.
Speaker 2:I'm probably butchering the phrase no, but you're right.
Speaker 1:You know, and I don't know what it is for women, but I'm a man, so I can only speak from this, and so the person that I'm queasy about, let's say I ask her out, she says no yeah that's not the end of the road for me. I still need to keep well, it's kind of weird to say that, but it's, I think that's life, like that's the law of the universe.
Speaker 2:I think it's a law of the universe. I also think it's sort of the times that we're in and part of why I'm doing the podcast. I think that I've heard John Wineland say this. Like men, historically speaking, I mean centuries and centuries back, the man's job, quote unquote, was to go hunt and protect. The man's job, quote unquote, was to go hunt and protect. And now, because of the way we're evolving as humans and women have always been more relational, so that's been like in our DNA. It hasn't been really until the last 50 years Like this is the first generation where society and women and men were asking more of one another in way of connection and vulnerability and relationship and growth. There are less men that are on the personal development growth journey and wanting that connection, I think, than there are women.
Speaker 1:I shall disagree with that.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell me about it, I want to hear it.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of women on that learning journey, but they're going to manipulate the men to like them. Only few, only few, are actually on that journey. No, I actually think it's almost like narcissists trying to learn about narcissism so they can narc the other person out. Are you being for real right now? No, I actually. I actually believe that I think there's an equal amount of men and women that are truly wanting to be connected.
Speaker 2:Well, that's great to hear.
Speaker 1:But there's more women reading the self-help books. To manipulate. Yeah, I think so. Now, this is just my experience, because I've been like self-helped Not self-help, but like there's so many women and like ladies, I love you all. But you just just know that a lot of your books you read are trying to quickly figure out how to catch your man before he knows what happened. Oh, and that shit's not going to work. However, you have to do deeper work.
Speaker 2:I haven't heard this before. This is so great.
Speaker 1:I think it's true and it it it cause I felt bad for women. I'm like man, all these women, they want these men, but there's we're all the good men, which is kind of what I hear a lot and I thought it was true. But it's not true. Like a lot of good men if they're just told hey guys, just hold space and frame and let a good woman come in and be the flow and the fun, like understanding our jobs again, we can actually go back to equilibrium pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you for saying that, and I want to be clear. The last thing I want to do is be a woman that is like where are all the good men? And I said this on Facebook at one point and there were men that were like I'm out here doing the work, but the feedback I got on that post was that the men are doing the work, but they're doing it more quietly. They're just like not talking about it. The same way that women are, so there's layers to all of it.
Speaker 2:I would love to have data on it, though, like I would love real data.
Speaker 1:You know what the real data is For me. I'm one dude and need one woman. Yeah, so it's 50-50. I don't care if there's only 100 women out there or 100 million, I just need one. So as long as there's like five in the whole world. That's all I need Now. That's selfishly. Yeah, that's actually one of the key things. I don't have to fix the universe. My job is to be Paul.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And to be love first and set a direction and trajectory and see what adventures show up. I know I kind of oversimplified it and I think what I rambled at was so when I was going through my divorce I read a lot of self-help books and try to figure out what's going wrong, and the shame piece was I would read these books about abuse and there were always men abusing women. But I'm like I'm on the other side, like am I stupid that I'm a man that can't hold up his end of the deal. You see where I mean.
Speaker 2:You are not. Thank you for sharing that there are, I know, men I know that this is way more common than people talk about, and it's really unfortunate I'm sorry that you went through that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for that. And it's that pain I went through that cracked me open and that country song is the cracks in my heart that let the love in. So I have no regrets at all about what happened. Just to be clear, I went all men to know like hey guys, like it's pretty easy to be a dude, just stop trying to I don't know be something you aren't, but follow John Wineland and what's that other guy Zurok?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's one, Max Trombley, who I had on. I think he's a good teacher in that space too, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think the men have to be ready to hear it in a way that doesn't make them look small or stupid, and I think men have to teach men. It's almost impossible for women to teach men how to be men, and so like hats off to all the dudes who are teaching me how to be a dude again. And when women try to teach men how to be men, it just does not work.
Speaker 2:Well, it gets this weird dynamic too of like mothering kind of. But I don't know, yeah, that's something about it.
Speaker 2:I was at the gym today and there's a personal trainer there that was training another man and like a younger man he's maybe late thirties is the trainer and the guy he was training is probably similar age and every and they're there multiple times a week when I'm there and every time I'm like I had this thought today. I'm like, ah, he's bringing this boy into manhood in a different way, like it's. It's not about the training, there's something else that they're exchanging in brotherhood.
Speaker 2:that is like I love watching, like the brotherhood aspect of it that I'm like, yeah, there's something about that, it's really powerful.
Speaker 1:Well, and here's another thing. I think a good example is watching kids in sports, like my, soren and Tal. They're now 17, 18 and going on to college to play football. When they were six and seven they were playing soccer and baseball and they're like dad, we want to play football. I'm like no, I'm an EMT. Like you get concussions, you can't do that. They begged and begged. I was like, okay, I'll let you play while you are in middle school or like grade school, because you're bigger than the other kids, you won't get hurt. You might hurt other kids, but then watching them go from little boys to men, I was like, oh, this is worth the risk. Like I can't not let them play football. And it turns out that's how they became men. Like Soren is going to Slippery Rock D2 college to play football Cool, 100% paid. Like what did I do? Just let him play football. And other dudes, dad him. Huh Cool, that's powerful.
Speaker 1:So, dudes, let other dudes dad your kids. Yeah, Ladies, let other dudes dad your boys. Stop helicopter parenting them, because if you do, you dudes dad your boys. Stop helicopter parenting them, because if you do, you make weak-ass boys. Just stop it and let them do dangerous things safely-ish.
Speaker 2:I feel like okay, I know we got to probably wrap this up here. How are you doing on time, you okay?
Speaker 1:I'm good I have. Oh, my boundary is. I have to set boundaries here. I have until 3.30.
Speaker 2:30 no kidding, you have two more hours. Oh, I have like this little twinge of like I don't know if it's because I worry about people who are listening to the podcast when we say things like this that I'm like it's okay to be opinionated. It's okay, jen, to have a perspective on a thing oh yeah I agree with you that little boys need to be.
Speaker 2:I've heard people say this too, that like they need to wrestle, they need to play, they need like. Men need that too. Like we've gotten. There's two sides to this. It's like men need to be able to get into their feminine, but I've heard from a lot of men that men also have not been in their masculine and a part of that is getting in their bodies in a more physical way. That like yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you see that in boys and I think that there are some women that are like, yeah, but I'm, I'm talking to my, I'm talking to my daughters about how important it is to to um, take charge and know that they can do hard things, but am I talking to my boys about how it's good to feel your feelings? And it comes down to like again that wholeness, like if we're looking at the divine, masculine and feminine. How do we teach our boys to hold structure, to be clear, to be connected to purpose?
Speaker 2:But also how do we teach our boys to hold structure, to be clear, to be connected to purpose, but also, how do we teach our boys to connect to intuition and to be connected in relationship, that that those are more feminine attributes? So I don't know, maybe I don't need to say all that. It feels like I'm kind of giving a disclaimer, but I think it's. I think it's, I don't know. I'm sometimes worried that people are going to shut out the whole of the message because they're missing the caveats in there.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe I don't need to do that, but no, I would a hundred percent agree, and my learning is the divine is divine, like a tree is wholly a tree, like I think we probably don't treat trees with the respect we should, that we just cut them down. And what my learning is is, like, what's my job to be masculine and when is it to be feminine?
Speaker 1:So it's not that Paul just needs to be masculine. I need to know both energies and, in fact, in business you need to be both. You need to be both in your business, but you can't really wear both hats at the same time.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think part of it is being in your body and knowing when you are either one or the other, and don't unconsciously be one or the other yeah that's good, that's my work, if you know which one you are and which one you need and which one you need to switch to to create polarity if you want to make sparks. No, that's, that's like I even tried this set. I went out for dinner last week and I leaned in. It was very masculine, like breathe in and like was trying to be masculine, invite and and the bartender just like oh, it got all drooly and I could see her get in and I was like, oh god, like I'm doing the thing. It worked.
Speaker 1:And then I told her what I did. I said, do you know what I just did? And she said no. But I said, well, what did you feel? And she like I wasn't going to tell you. I was like, yeah, you feel giddy and you felt like you didn't know what to do with you. You were like out of control. She's like, yeah, and it felt really good. And then I told her and she never met before, you just did that with a bartender. That's cool, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think those are the things that we need to do to play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that polarity is knowing what it is, and then use that knowledge Well, because you can manipulate people with that too and take it in very hurtful ways. Just don't do that.
Speaker 2:There's no need.
Speaker 1:Well, people do it. I know. There's old playbooks on how to manipulate people. I don't want to know that.
Speaker 2:But I should know that I have people in my world right now telling me in kind ways to not be naive, because I really believe the best in people and it's not always good.
Speaker 1:Jen, the best way to know if you can trust someone is to trust them, and they show their colors quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I'm living by, I know, and that's okay. I can get, I've been, I can, it's okay. Okay, what have it? Is there anything else on your heart or mind that we haven't talked about, that we should talk about today?
Speaker 1:That's hard because everyone is such a different place. I think I think the, the, the two words are masculine and feminine, but on top of that is the divine, masculine, feminine. And just start reading about that and if you feel it, if you're feeling right now like I got to learn more about that, just listen to Jen's previous podcast episodes. I'm actually serious Because those, the guests you brought on and this is where I'm going to give you some more than praise Like. Praise is saying like Jen, you did a good job, you made a lot of money, you raised your kids well. But worship is saying like Jen, you were the channel, the divine feminine, and connected the stories Like that's worship, feminine and connected to stories like that's worship. And it's because you connected to something that's beyond you through you and without you opening your mouth, it wouldn't have been delivered.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm receiving that. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's coming back to body, intuition, inner knowing. I'm going to be curious to see where this journey that I'm on leads, because it feels like I'm a hound on a trail. Honestly, I'm like what's going to turn up next, because there's stuff here we haven't been learning about. We haven't been talking about, and I'm thankful for you today sharing your story and sharing how you're learning. You know, like, this is what I want people to hear how? Because it doesn't have to be going to school, it doesn't have to be having a degree in something to be. It's like we have these innate, uh little radars that are teaching us things all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and also, I know I'm always like PSPS, but PS guys and girls, it doesn't matter who makes the money anymore. Like throw that out the window, like our job as dudes is to be the dude frame and form.
Speaker 1:And you can be an amazing partner. By just holding that frame in space for your partner to flow and whatnot, you might make 50,000 a year. She might make 250. That doesn't matter. In fact it takes. I think it actually might take a braver man to love a woman in our social construct who makes more money than him, and we need to be that men.
Speaker 2:Thank you for saying that Feels good to hear. It's letting me off. Be that man. Thank you for saying that Feels good to hear.
Speaker 1:It's letting me off the hook too.
Speaker 2:What do you mean? Letting you off the hook?
Speaker 1:No, it's to not worry about, because I compare myself like are we compatible money-wise? And you don't have like that's, it doesn't have to be equal anymore. It has to be compatible. But you have the relationship. Is is a different silo than the money.
Speaker 2:I think for what it's worth, because I have these conversations with the women in my world and I've made very little and I've made a lot and and there was a period of time where I was like I don't think I could be with a man who makes a lot less than me. It wasn't about the money, though. It was about their willingness to take initiative.
Speaker 2:They're having a sense of purpose, they're um, feeling like they're of use in this life, like it wasn't the amount of money, it was all of the other things. The second thing I will say to that is that I think I could be wrong and I don't have data on this, but my perception is that if men aren't making as much, they feel threatened or they like feel some kind of way in the relationship. They're not showing up in their masculine because they're feeling emasculated, even if the woman isn't doing it, which she might be doing it without realizing it. But like, I think there are other additional dynamics there that it's not about the money, it's about all the other things.
Speaker 2:So I and a lot of other women in my world and I'm not making the same amount of money as I was five years ago or four years ago, I guess not making the same amount of money as I was five years ago or four years ago, I guess. But like we've all been like kind of come around to that and been like it really doesn't matter, it's the connection, it's the relationship, it's a sense of purpose, cause those things change, just like everything else in life changes. Because he might what if he is making five times what he's making now. In three years, will you love him more than that's bullshit like yeah, who? Who are the two people being? How are they showing up to the relationship?
Speaker 1:that's what it is jen, when would you want to meet a man as he's beginning his build or when he's already built? Built what himself anything, I don't know. Uh, let's say he's built his self-confidence but his money went up and down like through a divorce, lost everything and restarting.
Speaker 2:I want a man that has built his character and that knows who he is and that is grounded in his being. That is more important to me than the amount of money in his bank.
Speaker 1:Do you know how many dudes are asking the question that you just answered? Oh, really, all of them.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:Thank you yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had no idea, men were asking that.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. Thousand percent, yeah. Good women, the women, the women that I've just called. I'm going to put myself in that category.
Speaker 1:You're a good woman.
Speaker 2:Thank you, stop it Just say yes, thank you I am, I'm saying to put myself in that category.
Speaker 2:You're a good woman, thank you. Stop it. Just say yes, thank you, I am. I'm saying thank you, oh you're welcome the women that I'm talking to. Our heart is to be known, to be seen, to be connected to, to be loved, to be guided, to be ravished, to be like all of these things. The other stuff is also if she's making good money, she doesn't. This is the comes back to like what our society is asking of men. Now she doesn't need a man. Quote unquote.
Speaker 2:And I know there's some triggers around that. But like, if a woman says I don't need you, it's not from a place of I don't want you. It's this like it's not from a place of I don't want you, it's this like I don't need you to make the money anymore. What I need and what I want is connection and intimacy. So like it's requiring something different of men right now, of that kind of woman. It's like, well, why would I be in a relationship if you're going to just like not be connected to me? And I'm paying all the bills and I'm doing like what is this? What are we doing here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly no, I, I 100% agree. And. I. A year ago I didn't know that to be true, so it's actually relaxing to realize that I can be in a world that women want a man to hold the frame in space and let her be, like responding to the environment. Like I love that. I freaking love that.
Speaker 2:Show up and create framework, create structure, see her like, see her when you can tune in and be present and and know her and see her. There is nothing better to the feminine than to feel like, not just physically, but not just mentally, but like spiritually. When you can connect on that level, that is like ah.
Speaker 1:No, I agree, I agree, and so that's that's why I'm on this journey to do the man work. Yeah. Do you have someone that you would recommend me to do a course Like? Is John Weiland a good person to follow in his courses? He's the one. Yeah, okay, good, because that's what I'm following.
Speaker 2:We're going to call this episode doing the man work.
Speaker 1:Doing the man work. As you just said, it was so much fun to not have to be the riverbanks and I don't know if I'll listen to this episode. But I felt so so comfortable just yakking. So thank you, Thank you for doing that for me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your heart, thank you for opening up, thank you for being transparent in this conversation and being a man who's doing the man work. You're a gift. Hey you, yes you. Thank you for tuning in today. I hope this episode is supporting you on your path to becoming the strongest, shiniest version of you. My goal and hope is to continue helping people through this podcast. So if you've enjoyed this episode or taken anything that's helped you out, the best thank you would be to join me in moving this forward by doing two simple things. If you haven't already, following the podcast is very helpful. Also, apparently, the algorithms really like reviews. If you can take a minute to leave a review, artificial intelligence would love it and I would be so grateful. Feel free, of course, to share an episode with someone you think may need to hear what you heard today. Thanks again, everyone. I genuinely appreciate you and I'm so thankful to be building a community like this together here. I'll catch you later. In the meantime, have a banging day.
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