#22. Career Pivots, Plant-Based Food, & Spiritual Awakening with Sabrina Kinney

This week’s episode is FUN! Come along as I sit down with plant-eating enthusiast, Plant Forward Sabrina, a plant-based recipe content creator with a passion for creating healthy, delicious, and EASY meals. On top of that, she’s also one of my best friends in the entire world (she officiated my wedding!), so we have A LOT to discuss. Join us as we dive into all things adult friendships, plant-based eating, finding an optimistic attitude in the most uncertain of times, aiming for balance in life, navigating differences in romantic relationships, and so much more.
Back in November of 2022, Sabrina was unexpectedly impacted by the layoffs in the tech world, and she found herself a little lost without a job and without any idea of what she wanted to do next. Tune in to hear how she navigated those uncertain times, how her spiritual beliefs had prepared her for such an intense and potentially traumatic experience, and how plant-based eating not only aided in her journey but also became one of her greatest messages to the world.
This week’s episode is filled with lots of laughs and playful energy but is also chock full of helpful tips and hard-earned wisdom. I hope you enjoy, my friends!
Follow Sabrina on Instagram @plantforwardsabrina: https://www.instagram.com/plantforwardsabrina/

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Podcast cover art by Brooke Baker

Music by RØRE

Transcript

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how did you pick yourself up whenever you started to kind of get down on your luck again. It was just constant affirmation that this is all meant to be. And going back to that, I know it's kind of a spiritual message for some, but for me it really sticks of like I meant to be struggling right now. I'm meant to not know what it is and the time will come. And I think another beautiful thing is I had never really known what my passion was, so it wasn't that abnormal of a feeling. I knew that the backup option was I can work at a grocery store and make money if I need to, or this tea place right here. I will be fine. And my best case scenario is finding out what I want to do and be passionate about it and doing it. And that's what happened. And it was just beautiful that it unfolded in that way, Hello, my friends. Welcome to It's All Magic. I am your guide, your host and your friend, Devon Heyn. And here we'll be discussing how to make your life truly feel like magic. I believe that our very existence on earth is nothing less than a miracle. And that we all have so much potential to learn, to grow, to experience and to create during our short time here. It is both my passion and my pleasure to walk this path of life optimization by your side. We will discuss topics like passion, purpose, intuition, manifestation, physical well-being, and much, much more. I'm a yoga teacher, a meditation and breathwork facilitator, and a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach. But more importantly, I am an eternal optimist, a lover of life and a forever student. It is my hope that with each and every episode, you too will finally start to believe it really is all magic after all. Ready to dive in? Let's do it. my friends. And welcome back to another super fun episode of It's All Magic. You are definitely in luck because today I have one of my best friends in the entire world on the show. Her name is Sabrina Kinney and she is a plant based recipe content creator on Instagram. At Plant Forward Sabrina. But she is also a multi passionate, eternally curious soul. She loves all things pickleball board games, plant based food travel and just the enjoyment of life. She inspires me in so many ways and I have no doubt that she will inspire youth through this conversation as well. We touch on so many topics from her spiritual journey, plant based nutrition and the health benefits of eating more plants on your plate. Her relationship with her amazing fiancee and how they're able to navigate having different religious beliefs and different eating patterns and so much more. So if any of that sounds interesting, definitely stay tuned because we have a really fun conversation coming in just a moment. But before we get started with the conversation and of course, want to grant us the opportunity to take a few deep breaths, let's keep it really simple today and just breathe in through the nose and then say it out through the mouth. Sometimes I like to go back to the foundations of taking deep breaths. It doesn't always have to be complicated. In fact, I feel like that was one of my takeaways from today's conversation. So when you're ready, if you like to close your eyes, you're more than welcome. And if you don't have the opportunity to close your eyes, that's okay, too. I just want you to get yourself ready. If you are sitting down, maybe get yourself comfortable, and then all together you can empty out from your previous breath and then breathe in through the nose, filling up all the way and open mouth. Just let it go. gorgeous. And again, inhale through the nose and open mouth. Say it out. How Last one. Make it the deepest and forced yet. Inhale, breathe it all in an open mouth. Let it all go. how gorgeous. You can flutter. Open your eyelids and get excited about this conversation. And without further ado, let's get into it and join my friends. I will see you on the other side. Hello and welcome back to another amazing episode of It's All Magic. I am. Very, very excited about today's episode. As always, because I. Am joined by one of my dearest friends in the entire world, Sabrina Kinney. Hi, Sabrina. Hello. It's great to be here in my own house. This is your first podcast you've ever been on. How are you feeling? It feels exciting. You know, there was a lot of set up for this and I'm really excited to be here in this moment reaping the benefits. Of this house. So I hope we're reaping the benefits. For anyone listening or watching, you should know that the setup for a podcast is half of the I. Think this is a great thing for people to learn. I don't think we should talk about anything else. We should just talk about what. People the magic. Of setting up a podcast. Exactly. Speaking of magic, my dear friend, I don't know if you know that this question is coming to you, but I've been doing. This thing where I start every interview with the same question. So the question is this for you What makes life feel like magic? You know, I did remember you saying this and one of them and I was like, I should think of something totally. Totally missed it always how? But I think that's a good thing. Magic to me is the random things that come up that make you smile. So it's seeing a buy one, get one free ice cream sign and going into the ice cream store and getting that local ice cream as an example. That's the cutest. I wish everyone in the audience could know you and me because you are. The epitome of spontaneous, playful adventures. I think you are. Such a kid in an adult body. Yes. Yes. Teen. Adult. Adult. Yes. And I just really appreciate that. That's also what makes life feel like magic for you. I mean, isn't it do you. Relate to that at all? Okay. Thank you. Think of another example. If it's not the ice cream. It's like you're on a walk and then you see the sun setting and you decide to go down to the beach and watch the sun setting. It's like capture ring. I guess it's more being in the present moment and being aware of your surroundings and then acting on it instead of being like, that would be nice. It's I will do that right now. Absolutely. that's so fun. Would you put. Buying a spontaneous international place. You see a good deal in an email in the same boat? You know. It does make life more magical when you do that. Fantastic answer. Great start to the podcast. I'm so. Glad. So before we even dive into some of the topics discussed, I feel like it might be fun to kind of walk down memory lane through a friendship. I love that this is great. So many people out. There I know must relate to the whole adult friendships can be hard. Or how do you make friends? How do you maintain friendships from life as busy or you don't live in the same place as you did with your college friends, for example? Yeah, and I feel like we could both talk a little bit about our friendship, how we maintain it. Yeah, long distance most of the time. And in general, you were, like, the greatest friend. I don't mean just to me, but, like, an archetype of a person. Amazing friend. So let's start real quick with you and. How we met. Do you remember how we met? You know, we went to high school together, and I don't remember the exact moment that we met. I feel like I remember you being a grade younger than I was. And as soon as I got into Northwestern, you were like, so excited. And then when it was your senior year and I was already there, you were like really excited to learn more about it. But did we meet before that? Was there anything before that? Okay, so this was okay, cool. I remember is being really interested in Northwestern. I knew you went there. I'd never met you. Yes. You in the holes? So I spontaneously Facebook message to you. My mom and I are coming to Chicago. Yeah. Northwestern. Can you give us a tour? And I was like, I love this school. I love having people from. Our high school, like, visit. This is. Awesome. And you guys came in on Valentine's Day, and you guys were in a car where the driver gave you guys flowers, and you guys gave me a flower. And I was like, This is the best Valentine's Day ever. This is the best start to this. And it was in Chicago, like 20 degrees. All of us from California just in our. Parkas. Walking around this campus. And I'm like, this is not she's not going to love it here. Like, this is terrible weather. I am not doing a great job selling this. And we just kept walking around and I loved hanging out with your mom, too. It was just like the three of us being friends. And the first time I met you or spent time with you was with your mom, who is so close to you. And at Northwestern, which is so cord at me. And then it was just us going on a walk. Which is. Funny because we do that all the time. I still remember it was the coldest weather I had ever experienced in my life that night. So because we walked around for hours outside and it was a blast when my mom and I got back to my hotel room, I had to sit in a scalding bath just shivering. That's also, folks, it shows you how about I am meeting. That's a side note. Yeah. I remember what I loved about you and your mom is the energy that you had the ability to be completely vulnerable right away. The questions you asked were intelligent. It felt like you did your research on what you wanted to learn about the school, but also wanted to get to know me more. And through that we talked about like boys and just like random things on the first day of meeting each other and like, hanging out with each other that it's so cool to think back to that as the core foundation where we were so open immediately. And now what, ten years ish later, eight, ten years later, we're here and we talk about the same things and we are still very vulnerable with each other. But it's cool that it started out that way also. So from there to where we are today, let's talk a little bit about just the journey of the friendship and maybe how we've been able to maintain it. I think. As I mentioned, especially for adults that are used to, you know, the kinds of relationships you can have in college or even when you're younger, where you are living life with your friends down day out. It's like the same dance practice or you have, yeah, the same dorm. And then real adult life is. And it's not like that. Yeah. So how do you feel? Like we've been able to maintain our friendship so well? Yeah, Well. First it's the intentionality of a friendship that we both prioritize because it's easy when you're in proximity to people like in your college dorm and you live right next to them and then you do stuff with them all the time. And now we've never really lived for maybe like two years. We lived in the same city out of this ten year friendship. I'm just calling it ten years, I don't know. And and now we have just so much of that foundation. But then also the intentionality of we want to put this friendship first. And I think one of it stems from I feel like the second or third time that we like really seriously talked. I was in college, you were in college and you were in this women's group and program, and you texted me this super sweet message where it was like, You are a role model to me. I just wanted to let you know, like, we're supposed to reach out to these people, see that they inspire us. And I was so touched by that because we had not talked for more than like a few hours at that point in time in our lives. But the intentionality that you put in letting me know how you felt and the vulnerability I think just opened the doors of our friendship even more so. I mean, that's kind of off topic, but the idea is you need to continue to be vulnerable with the person. Even if you're in a distance friendship, you need to tell them things. And it's not like you're catching up with someone. Like we don't really sit around and he'll will be like, What do you do Thursday? Like, how was that? We we do that to start and then we get into. But that made me feel this way. And then I journaled about this. And then I went on this walk and I had this epiphany and I think that is the magic of the friendship where it gets to that deeper level. But I think communication can mean different things for different people. I think in adult friendships, you do not need to be in constant communication. I think there's this mutual understanding that we both prioritize the friendship and it's a top thing that we focus on, but it's not something that we we don't talk to each other every day. We don't see each other like maybe once a week or when something happens or to wish each other good luck in something that's coming up. And I love that. But it's mostly just a call like we call each other once every ten days, maybe for like 2 hours, and we catch up on everything and anything under the sun and continue to talk about things that we are marinating on. But for the most part, our friendship is those 2 hours of time where we're both on a walk, which we love doing in separate cities, and we're both talking about our feelings, which we both love in separate cities. And so it's not even a face, it's not even me seeing your face. So I think the magic and the beauty of this adult friendship is we both have that understanding that no matter what we're there for each other. We don't need to be in constant communication. So it never feels draining. I love all of that. First of all, I did not know that you don't. Remember that you sent that. I don't remember that. I do remember getting kind of challenges like that. Yeah. To someone that really inspires you. But I also it's was so beautiful. Hearing that it had that. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. So I feel like for anyone listening, they should. Everyone listening. Everyone listening to someone that inspires you, someone that has supported you in the past and just let them know what they mean to you. Apparently it can really have an impact. Absolutely. I think it's great to be on the receiving end of those and I'm sure it feels great to be on the sending end of those two. Totally. I also love that you said that communication looks different for everyone. Yeah, I have to be in constant contact. And I think for me, especially as I was kind of transitioning from kind of childhood friendships to adult friendships, there is that loss of, wow, we used to be together text every single day. It's just different. Yeah. Suddenly it's more of living parallel lives that you can talk about and update each other on constantly. Yeah, not necessarily making the day to day memories you once did. Yeah, but it's nice to remember that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a different phase of life. Agreed. And I also love that you brought up that we when we spend time together, even though we are long distance, we're doing something we love. Yeah. Well, and you kept emphasizing vulnerability that even if it's been two weeks, three weeks, sometimes if you've been out of the country or something since we've talked. Yeah. It's like, how are you? Like, what are your most recent epiphanies in your relationship, in your career? Deep Yeah, and we also then end up being that that rock for each other. It's like, there's this thing I really need her coaching on. Yeah, we're not afraid to go really deep, really fast. And another point to that is one of the first questions we always ask each other, which you've taken like coaching classes. So maybe this is something that you've learned and maybe I've picked it up from you is what's top of mind for you. And that just opens the door. Yeah, I love hearing that because to me it's like, what's your big priority right now? What are you focusing on? What's taking up your brain space? And then we dive into so much from that. so if you don't know how to start a tougher conversation or a more vulnerable conversation, I think that's a great opening line. What's top of mind? What are you thinking about right now? that's such a great nugget of wisdom. When I was taking my coaching classes, there's this one opening line they taught us. Yeah, I used to crack up about it. I want to see if you also think it's a little. Okay. The question that. We were supposed to ask our clients for the first question of each session. Was you say So, Sabrina. I'm your client right now. You have to be serious. So. So, Sabrina, what's new and good? No. gosh. It's too casual when you're not trying to be casual. So new and good has to be both new and good. What if it's new that's bad? Or what if there's something that's good that's old? The more. You dive in. The weirder it is. But I think it taught me to at least start with just an open ended like. Well, hey, wait to. See the positive in that question. Good. Sabrina. I'm now only going to say. That when we talk. my God. Or maybe we. What's new and bad this week? What's new and tough? What's new and tough with the old and bad? And we're only going negative now. That's the takeaway. It was too positive for us. It's funny. I do think that's why they had the good thing. Yeah, especially. In life coaching, wellness coaching. They want you to get the client in the mindset. Of. Things are good. So even if set wellness goals that they had fallen off track of, if you say like, Hey, what's going well with your wellness this week as your first? Yes, they might say, well, I actually did go to the gym. It wasn't the five times I wanted to, but I went three times. I like that. Suddenly they see it through more rose colored. I do like that a lot. Maybe there are new and good things we can take from that question. I agree completely. So transitioning into a whole new. Okay. A whole new and good topic. I hope you like that one. Good question. Really was the cherry on top? I think it was discussion. I want to talk a little bit about. Your career choices, Life has the last year plus a few months has been life changing for you? Absolutely ways. So let's go back in time for a second to November of 2022. I hope I have you crushed it. What happens in November of 2022, that. Drastic would change the trajectory of your career? Yeah, I so starting out four and a half years about after graduating, I have been constantly working in tech corporate jobs similar to your last job. And I enjoyed what I was doing. I loved the people I was working with, but I was like, Ultimately, this isn't for me. I don't know when I'm going to leave, but at some point in time I know that this will not be my future career path. And so I was part of the layoffs in November 2022, and immediately when I got the email, I was so excited. That. And I was like, my gosh, they're paying me to not work for a few months. I was so fortunate to get so much severance and I no longer have to worry about when I'm going to leave, what's going to happen here. Instead, I can just figure out what the heck I want to do with my life, which when you're working a job that you enjoy but you're still working 8 hours a day, it's hard to think and conceptualize doing something else or figuring out what you're actually passionate about. So it was like the last day of November and that day I just went on some walks, of course, and was sad about a chapter ending, but excited about a whole new world of possibilities. And so I had four months where I didn't need to financially worry about anything and I could explore and be a kid in a playground with the world as my playground and so I went home for the holidays, which was great. I started playing a ton of pickleball, which I still do today in love. So I guess building long term habits, it's great. And my 67 year old partner. There, it's great. And then I traveled, so I booked a three week solo trip and I went to Italy. I had never been to Florence, but I loved that it was a quaint little city and I love that it was near Tuscany. For some reason, I had always dreamed of working on a Tuscan farm. So I found this farmer through work, which is a fantastic program where it's kind of like Airbnb for farms and people where you can land your manual labor and they will give you a place to stay and food to eat while you're there. So I was in Florence for a few days and then I went to work on this olive orchard and vineyard in the Tuscan countryside with this farmer Guido. And so I was working with Guido for about five or six days, and we did anything from building a vineyard from scratch, like we were hammering in poles and building this line system and structure for new vines of grapes to be made. So it was really cool to see in a day your hard work super different than on a computer in a tech job, typing away at emails or in meetings. This was like there was nothing here at the beginning of the day and we built this today and that was super cool. And then we also bottled and labeled olive oil and wine we had a tasting with was super fun with some American people that were there. And then I realized I am not a manual labor person at all. And I decided to end that part of my journey a little earlier than normal, which I was okay with. I just wanted to let it flow similar to everything else in life. And then I went back to Florence, and those three days in Florence by myself were the best. I took cooking classes. I wandered around a city that I kind of already knew. I went to my favorite restaurants that I've already been to and tried new ones. It was like I was a local living there. And then I went to France and I took cooking classes there because I've always loved cooking in some way. It's easy to think about this in retrospect, but in the moment I was like, I've always wanted to take cooking classes in France, but now I'm like, No, no, no. I was doing cooking competitions with my cousins growing up. I made my friends cook with me all the time. I loved having people over cooking for my parents, making breakfast for me and myself. In the morning before school. And so I was in France for a week just taking cooking classes, the chef and myself, That's it for 10 hours a day. We were in the kitchen. Anything from deboning a chicken, chicken and a fish to going to a sheep farm to see how they made their cheese and their milk and everything to cooking and plating like a smoked potato puree and putting that beautifully on a slate dish, just learning everything, which was the coolest because it gave me confidence in like how to make a sauce, how to season something. Well, the basics, which I kind of already understood, but I was in France learning it from a French chef, so I really understood it after this. So then I came back and were two months into me not having a job, feeling the freest I have ever felt, feeling like it was pure vacation. I didn't need to work. Theoretically, at this point in my life, I was like, This is great. I don't need to do anything besides this financial responsibility of being an adult, that I do need to have a job. So then I went back to traveling and I traveled with some friends to Mexico City, and that was just a fun trip, exploring food, exploring culture. I came back and I was like, I need to find a job. So I was applying to jobs in the tech field that were similar to my strategy corporate job that I had before. And I was realizing none of these excited me. I was looking at the description of the job and I realized my day to day would be similar to what I had before I would be answering emails in meetings. I would not be doing anything that was exciting to me. Maybe I was working at an exciting company that was about something that I would passion toward, like the environment or food, but it was not something that would keep me motivated long term. And so I was trying to figure out what things in life I loved doing. So I went to a yoga class and in this yoga class we were sitting down before it even started, and I just had this epiphany come to me. I have no idea how. And it was like, You need to study nutrition, you need to do something with food and educate the world on food somehow. And so after that class, I researched different food programs. I called you, I talked to you about this since you are huge in this field as well. And you were like, This is the one I did. I loved it. I was looking into all of them. I did that one. And so I took this six week long plant based nutrition course, which was amazing. I changed the way that I eat. I was already pretty vegetarian before, but I was like now mostly plant based after taking the course, learning so much about the health benefits. But then I was like, What the heck do I do with this? I just I'm in the six week course. I don't have any jobs lined up now. I need to start making money somehow. So I reached out to 60 different small food companies that I got on a list of a conference of organic and natural foods, and I reached out to them being like, Hey, my name's Sabrina. I'm taking this like plant based food course. I love your product because X, Y, and Z, or I love what you're doing because you stick to your values. And would you be open to having a conversation? Not even like, here's my resume, please hire me. Just like I wanted to learn what it was like to be in the food industry from the small business owners perspective because maybe I wanted to do that. After a few of these calls, I realized I did not want to do that. It was so much stress, so many hoops to jump through of like getting on a grocery store shelf. But I knew I loved food and I wanted to do something with food. So I kept reaching out to different small companies. And then finally a few of them were like, Why don't you work part time for us? Why don't you do this project? Why don't you try this? And I had no idea this was a career path that was possible. No one tells you after college, you know, just reach out to companies and then they're going to offer you a job at some point in time. And it's going to be in a field that you want to work in. And you know what you want to do. That was all insane to me. And I think it was just putting in the hours of I want to try this, so let me reach out to as many as I can that I firmly believe in their values for. And then the ones that got back to me, they were open to the opportunity of having someone join their team or they were the ones that were seeking something else out as well. And they just have the personality of being very nice by by responding to a random email. So then I started working for food companies and I was like, This is awesome. I love this space, but I want to do something for myself and I want to do something else on the side that doesn't necessarily need to make me money, but it needs to fill my soul a little more than working for someone else. So then I was cooking one day for some of my friends that came over. Peter and I were hosting dinner parties at the time and they were like, You need to start an Instagram channel posting pictures about your food. And I was like, That is a really cool idea. And then I was like, You know what? I'm a film major. I really like film. Why don't I post videos about making recipes that I am creating or that I learned in France or in Italy and have them have a plant based twist to it, which is kind of uncommon to have really good food that's plant based. That's what people think. It's actually very common, but still having that ability to make it my own and be creative in developing the recipes as well as filming felt like an awesome creative outlet to me. And so then through that I realized, my gosh, there's so much I have to learn about this food space, about being an influencer, not really an influencer, just posting my recipes online. And I just loved it. I loved creating the food, I loved eating the food, I loved sharing this content, and I loved inspiring people to eat more plant based using the research and the nutrition facts that you and I both now know through taking that course and others. I'm going to pause there because I've been talking for like 10 minutes, but that was a lot. You're such a good swimmer. thank you. And I love that you are able to bring the emotion of each phase. Like I remember the day that you were laid off. And I want to say we had a phone called Plant. Yeah. Morning. And I remember. So let's say we were planning on having a phone call and I texted you and said, Hey, you know, what time are you free? And I think you said something like, Well, suddenly I'm free all day any time. And I think maybe you had a week facing it. And I picked up the phone. I called you immediately. And I think I said, like, I remember that. I think it is. And you said, yes. And I said, congratulations. Yes, I remember that. And I remember I think Carl maybe even was like, why did you congratulate her? Because at that point in your life, you had already been questioning. I mean, for me once, cause it was very much of okay, I'm not necessarily at the point where I can leave yet, but yeah, isn't it. Yeah. A little lost on what it is. And then the universe did the hard work for you. I needed a jumping point and I needed a catalyzing event and that was totally it. And so many people obviously being laid off is not a fun thing. And I was just so fortunate to be able to take it in the mindset that it was a positive and being able to explore so many things during that time in between that I was able to come to my true passion around food and educating people on their own health. But also just having it be kind of fun and creative still. Yes, exactly. And it's so funny. I had even heard this spiritual teacher of one of my favorites, Gaby Bernstein, was saying the other day that if ever one of her friends wakes up, gets laid off, has some sort of catalyzing, catastrophic, potentially traumatic event in their lives, she will always say congratulations. And many of them were like, Why? And she said, if it didn't work out clearly, it wasn't meant to. And the universe is guiding you towards something that is. I love that. I think constantly reframing things in terms of it's not this happened to me. This happened for me. Now I get to figure out why. Absolutely. Yeah. It brings me back to when I was babysitting. Some parents have this philosophy and I love it where if a kid falls down, you. Say Yay, woo. Hoo! Because they're going off of your reaction to something and then they're feeding off of that energy so they don't see it as this huge moment where they need to cry anymore. They're seeing it as like, okay, this is okay that I fell down. It's okay to make this mistake or it's okay that I'm feeling a little hurt. I have support right here and it kind of goes to that where if you have friends that are telling, you know, this is a great thing in your life that just happened or like there will be a positive that comes out of it. You can start to shape your mind just like a two year old that fell over their own feet. Yes. I completely agree. So going back to that, that point where you're laid off and you're feeling like, okay, this is a good thing, this catalyzing event, as you said, and then you chose to travel. Yeah. And I want to ask about that decision because so many people, when they're laid off, they instantly go into the job search. Yeah, there's some sort of traumatic breakup. They instantly maybe go right back into dating. Yeah. It's so rare to have that limbo time just to let yourself have that. So what was the thought process behind traveling and how did you even maybe combat remarks you might have gotten with, like, like you just lost your job and you're going to Italy and France? Walk us through that a little bit. Yeah. I've always been someone that likes taking time in between things. I think it makes it more of a clean break. So after graduating college, I took two months to travel with one of my best friends in between jobs. I took a month and I traveled and I went to a yoga retreat in Costa Rica. I love having that space to just be in between, and it's journaling to leave all of the thoughts behind of that thing that you're leaving, the things that you're grateful for in that moment. And I knew I did not want to jump right into something else. A I thought it would be the same issues that I was having if I just jumped in something else. BE It was also December, like no one's hiring in December. So I kind of got away with the fact of like, Wow, it's the holiday break. No one's going to hire. I should just travel soon. So that was easy enough. And then I think ultimately see is I love traveling. So what better to do when I have unlimited free time than do something that I love? And the two things that I did were, one, take a cooking class and to go on a farm and work and those are not trips that you would necessarily take time off of work to then go work on a farm or work in a kitchen all day. So I thought, what better opportunity to do these two things that I have been wanting to do for years of my life now than right now. So it was just kind of a no brainer to me. And there were no other places that interested me nearly as much. I was just drawn to this. So you were also. Following those intuitive breadcrumbs? Absolutely. Destiny, in a way. Way better spoken than what I thought in the moment. These breadcrumbs became literal breadcrumbs in Italy. So in those moments where you were not ecstatic on some sort of trip, where you're in Italy, you're in Mexico City, those moments where you were back in a way, yeah. And sometimes I do remember on phone calls very occasionally, but sometimes, yeah. It's like the the heaviness of your reality would hit and you would. Deb, I really don't know what I'm going to do. And yeah, still uncertain Sabrina and stay optimistic but I'm a little lost in those moments. How did you kind of pick yourself back up again and how did you find clarity in those months of work to eventually find what you're doing now? Yeah, I mean, there are two good questions and nuggets in there, and I'm remembering the second one more than the first. Can you repeat the first one? So I address it in order. How do you pick yourself up? You started to kind of get down on your. Okay for that one. It was just constant affirmation that this is all meant to be. And going back to that, I know it's kind of a spiritual message for some, but for me it really sticks of like I meant to be struggling right now. I'm meant to not know what it is and the time will come. And I think another beautiful thing is I had never really known what my passion was, so it wasn't that abnormal of a feeling. I knew that the backup option was I can work at a grocery store and make money if I need to, or this tea place right here. I can do these things if I absolutely need to, and I will learn from that experience and it will be a cool, unique experience. So worst case scenario, that is my worst case scenario and that helped me reframe. Okay, I will be fine. And my best case scenario is finding out what I want to do and be passionate about it and doing it. And that's what happened. And it was just beautiful that it unfolded in that way, right? So that's the first. Right. And then can you remind me of the second question? It's my memory problem. Is how did you actually find clarity? What exercises in and kind of get you closer to. I found yeah. So when I was working at my job before DoorDash, where I was laid off, I actually did a 40 page workshop of what are the values that I have as a person and how does that relate to my work and how does that show up in my work? Is it do I want a community at work? Is it do I want to really balance life? So I don't really want to work as much as other people do? I want to climb the corporate ladder and achieve success in that traditional way. And I looked back at that. I realized some things had changed, but I redid that exercise and I did it from the standpoint of where I am now after having that new experience which checked so many of the boxes that I was looking for. But now every experience you have changes the way that you view your next experience because you learn from it, obviously. So from that I realized, okay, I can work from home and have a great community online still, or if I at least have one meeting with someone during the week, I have that presence. I don't need to be in a huge team environment. So that made me realize I can work for a small company. It doesn't need to be a large company. Basic changes like that helped me reframe what I was looking for in ways that I hadn't before. And then I think also, having spent so much time around where food comes from, what to do to prepare food and how we all love food as a world helped me realize I want to do something with food. I just didn't know what it was. And then the third part is I love learning. So when I was like, I want to do something with food, I'm like, How can I become more of an expert in this or learn more about it? Besides taking a cooking class, how can I learn about the science behind a micro in a macronutrient and how they get digested and work together in your body to make you a functioning, energetic human being? And that really sparked this. I like learning and I like learning about this. It's kind of like the reason why people go to graduate school. They want to learn more about that subject. So that was just an affirmation to me of I'm on the right path because I not only like learning, I like learning about this. Well said. And I especially like that first about reflecting on her values. I think especially it's so many of us who have been, you know, privileged to grow up in families that encourage our education and support us, reaching our goals and going as far as we can that we end up kind of staying on the straight and narrow path. Yeah. That's been encouraged out of a desire for safety and success for their children and whatever. And so after years of potentially being in a corporate job, that was fine, but also not it. So many of us have that epiphany moment of, okay, this isn't it, and I don't even know what I value. I have the same values that, you know, encouraged my parents to maybe shove me in this direction, right. Society to tell me that this path is better than this path. You know, the messaging is all around us. It's not just parents. Yeah. And getting that time to reflect and say what actually matters to me because you even mentioned, you know, balance and maybe I don't want to work super hard and not feeling shame in saying that. Beautiful things. Yeah. I think it was also helpful that for the past few months I had had no work, I had had no responsibilities and feeling the lack of stress for I need to wake up and be prepared for this meeting or let me prep after work to make sure that everything is going smoothly. I loved having the de-stress life that I was able to have when I wasn't working, so I was like, How do I maintain that? How do I maintain going to pickleball for 5 hours a week still while still working? Because those things are so important now that I've lived enough time, three months to be able to figure out what my day to day life looks like. How do I even have time to make homemade food that tastes really good still? And that to me was crucial in finding my next role. Absolutely. That's that's amazing. Well, I feel like you have landed in, some might say, the perfect scenario. I know. I see. Landed. But you built it for yourself. I mean, that took me. You. I mean, I, I appreciate when everyone says that, but for me, I'm like, I don't know. It just it fell into my lap. I was super lucky. And I do feel like this happens to people that just put the manifestation forward, that care about it, that have a vision of what they want. And for me, it was the kind of life that I wanted, the kind of job, the kind of things I wanted to be working on creatively. And with that, this just kind of happened. I could not have drawn this up, but I could not have drawn up something better. Absolutely. And I also think when something is meant for us, it's almost as if it happens easily and it doesn't. Yeah, the hard work that has gone into it. Yeah. Of learning about the Instagram algorithm and filming and editing all of that is very real. Yeah. When you love it. And it's meant for you, it's like the doors kind of. Just open. I know it is crazy that all of these small businesses, these CEOs were getting back to me and spending an hour of their talking to me. And now the CEO of this company that I'm working for, I get to spend each week asking him questions about the industry and him telling me new projects to work on, but more insight. And I feel so lucky to not only get to, like, be a part of this company, but then I also have this mentorship and I'm like, How? How did this happen? But it maybe is what you're saying where it's like, No, you're on the right path and this is super important for you to be able to continue on this journey. Absolutely. I've often heard that the universe has your back or the universe is conspiring for you. If we can really look at the world through that lens of how is the world trying to help me get closer to what's meant for me right now? Yeah. Even going back to the whole laying off. How is this not happening to me, but happening for. Just following those intuitive breadcrumbs and seeing where it leads and saying yes when something feels like a full body. Yes. No. What? It doesn't. Yeah, that is truly. I feel like that's the compass we were all born with for a reason. It's like them planted on this planet God, the universe, Sky. Daddy, whatever you said. I know how you're going to not get lost in life. You're going to have this compass called your intuition. Yeah, use it. And when you forget, I hope you have a friend. Yeah. And I think it's great because one of my goals outside of work for the past few years has been to follow my intuition more and to be more aligned with it as well as my gut and saying yes to things that I truly believe in. It's that 100%. If it's not 100%, hell yes. And it's a hell now as what you and your mom say. So I think that has been helpful too, to bring me to the point where the layoff happened then and I was already curating that ability to trust my gut and my instinct more. And then listening to that when it actually happened and moving forward with it and being able to have that free time to explore and play still, like all of those components together, kind of made this magical situation happen. But it is being really in tune with what feels right, what feels good. Absolutely. So speaking about intuition, I want to talk a little bit about your spiritual journey. Yeah. Because it starts with you. Saying you want to. Talk about that. I well, I don't think I've ever really talked to you about how you have perceived this whole journey, because obviously I have felt like I've walked this path. Like holding your hand. Yeah. Just being excited to teach you to ask questions. Yeah. I want to hear from your perspective. Let's start with even your childhood. What was kind of your spiritual upbringing background? What were the beliefs you grew up? Yeah. Yeah. So my parents, my mom is from Spain and so there religious in Spain. She's not the most religious and my dad is not religious at all, but my grandparents are very religious on my dad's side. So we always, when growing up, went to Sunday school and they went to church and I went to Sunday school and I liked it because there were donut holes, but I did not like the lessons that were learned or anything. I just didn't feel the connection there. Right. As maybe some kids that then end up growing up to be religious end up feeling as well. They're there for the donut holes and then the lessons come later. I was there for the food and now I'm in food. So this is perfect. So growing up we had that and then maybe when I was ten or so, we stopped going and then there was just no religion really, until I think that we had both graduated from college. Or maybe you were a senior in college and I was back living at home and one summer we were in your room late at night and we were talking about books that we had read. And you mentioned many lives, many masters, and that opened the door. I was like, Wait, what is this? I have never heard of the idea of past lives. I've never heard of the idea of you living different lives, having different lessons that you learn in each life. But as soon as you said it, I felt so connected to it. Maybe that's when my intuition really was starting to shine. Who knows? But it was just this moment of I believe this. And I've never felt that way for any other religious practice or teaching that I've heard that my friends have told me about, that they do that I so respect, but just didn't feel drawn to it. This I felt a connection to. So that was the start of it. And then reading that book as well as a New Earth and just many of the other books that we read in our book club, being around the people that you introduced me to through our spiritual book club, also helped me validate this feeling is real. I don't know if I can 100% believe it right away because it's better to be a skeptic about some things and then fully dive in once you've had those moments of questioning. And so having those moments of questioning, I think, helped me to get to now this strong belief of the universe does have our back. Everything is meant to happen for a reason. And there have been continuous examples, whether it's as simple as a tarot card reading that really resonates or a huge life event like being laid off that spurred this whole new part of my passion in my life. And I feel like so much more free than I ever would have if that didn't happen. Yeah. I love hearing that. And I remember that night. Yeah, So. Well, that was one of the best nights of my life. I agree. It's like that in my wedding. Well, I was at both. And you were. Too. But in fact, Sabrina actually officiated our wedding. So fun. So much more to say on that. But that night, I remember. Think, you know, the lights were off in my room. Maybe we had my Himalayan. So, yes, like it was very just moody. That's right. And having. Those conversations where I remember even as I was sharing these lessons that I. Learned from these books. That I, too had chills the whole time. Yes. Of. So why does something about this feel so right? It's almost like we're remembering something we knew to be true and be forgotten. Totally. And it's you know, what was hard for me was that no one else really in my life believed that. And it's such an easy thing to dismiss or to be a skeptic about anything that's woo woo typically is looked down upon or you're seen as someone that just isn't really set in realism. And I think that it was kind of easy for me. I've never really needed to be with the grain, and so it was easy for me to just let go of what other people were saying. But it was harder because there was no one else besides you. And then the people that then you introduce me to through the book club to talk about these things with. And it's so much to explore for any religion, any spirituality. Just what are your thoughts around these things? And the more that me personally, I talk about it, the more helpful and clarity I have toward my feelings. Absolutely. And I feel like having some form of spiritual belief, no matter what it is, whether it's Judaism, Catholicism, whatever the heck we believe. Yeah, I don't know what I don't know what you call it. That's funny. I hadn't thought of that. But I think believing in something makes life a so much more magical. But also so much more. I don't know if I want to say comfortable. That's not the word. I'm reassuring or. I get it. It's like if you're going through a hard time, you can turn to something. It doesn't necessarily it does tie to purpose a lot of the time, but it doesn't have to. It's just that sense of there's something else out there that's bigger than me and that's okay if I'm not doing all right today, because there will be a day that I will. And just continuing that, the thought of it will be okay, The universe has my back or God is out there, whatever it may be. I think that was really comforting that I'd never felt before either. And then just having it be so genuinely sticking to me, it it's not like I wanted to be your friend or we were like, trying to find some common ground. It was like, No, no, no. What you're saying I get and I like and I to learn more and I ask 100 questions about. Yeah. So that night, how did the practice of tarot cards come into your life and kind of more of the actual practices with journaling manifestation, how does that work its way? You know, that was around the same time that I started yoga and I think that they're beautifully combined in many ways where it's just being more in tune with yourself in your body. And I had picked up journaling a few months before. It's been on and on and on and off in my life, but now it's very on since that moment. So I think that journaling about the feelings and thoughts, or when I was reading a book, being like this is really interesting to me or highlighting different sections, I think it also really helps that you had the community based book club for us, so you had, I think five or six of us gals, you would hostess over, we would go to other people's houses. We had plant based snacks, and then we had these books that we were reading that were all spiritual. And for me it was my first time reading them for. Some people, it was multiple times that they were reading it, but we all came in with different perspectives, but an open mind and open to what other people were saying, and I think that really helped one form this community based area, which is huge in any sort of spirituality. And then to the the ability that you can express your own ideas and beliefs about something that made me feel more confident in it because I was able to ask my skeptical questions about it and be like, Well, what do you think about this? Or how does this way into this concept? I can't think of any of those right now. Otherwise I would give these examples. But just in general, having that group I think really helped. And then you and I did tarot cards. You bought me my first deck of tarot cards, and from then it was like, I'm having a tough day. Let me pull a tarot card. Let me go to this as something that is different from what I would normally do. And you can take them as seriously or is not seriously as you want. And for me it was just a fun activity to do. That always felt like it hit the nail on the head and I was like, How does it now? And it's just the energy around the cards yourself or what you're feeling and being able to fully put faith and trust in it. Because I was skeptical. Yeah, I, I loved your new journey and the fact that the book club was so. It was. It's also interesting because you and I were just talking about this for hours yesterday about how I was sharing that. I often feel very alone in my spirituality. I know a few key players in my life. I'm constantly seeking the spiritual community, which I hadn't really put two and two together until this very moment. But in the same way that I decided I'm starting a women's. Spiritual book club. Yes, I'm. Going to do tarot cards each time we're going to drink a cow. That's why I started this podcast. Absolutely. I'm really seeking that community where I don't have to be alone in it. And I say alone, like, Yeah. Yeah. In the grand scheme of things, it can be a woman. Yeah. You know, it's funny that you say that because we were just talking about your bachelorette party too, and how it is in Portland. But for those of you that don't know, you had a cookout ceremony at your bachelorette party and tarot card reading, and for many people there, they were not interested in that before, but they were there to support you. They were there to have that community. So despite you knowing that these people are not fully invested, you still want to create that sense of community and do something that you feel so connected to. So it makes so much sense that this podcast is another way to express that and just put it out and see what happens and see what comes. Because you're on the right path. These doors are going to be opening. Absolutely. And I feel like. Anyone that's out there that somehow finds the podcast, they maybe they feel alone in their spiritual. Yeah, it's like, that's cool. Devin also loves tarot cards. Yeah. And it just even if I never meet you in real life, it feels like a genuine connection. Absolutely connected in this way. And the people that are spiritual will get that. Yes, exactly. I agree. So something else I want to touch on relating to your spiritual journey. Yeah. Is that the fact that you and your amazing fiance, they have different spiritual beliefs? Yeah, I think that's really important to talk about. You know, for me, CWR is very much aligned with my spiritual beliefs. Yeah, the Shot in the Dark, You and Peter, who have an amazing relationship, like not a relationship in so many ways. Also have been able to. Create this respect and safety. Yeah. The fact that you believe different things and that's okay. So can you kind of just. Speak. To that a little bit? Yeah. Out there that's listening that maybe they are alone in their house or their partner is on a totally different path. That would be that. And what's that like? Yeah. So for background context, my fiance Peter is Catholic. I am. Whatever our spiritual belief is, we're going to call it magical manifestation. I don't know. And I think at the beginning, so we started dating a few years before I had gone on this journey. So when we started dating, he was the religious one. I wasn't spiritual at all. We didn't talk too much about it. And then I started having all of these conversations with you and just learning more about my beliefs and having beliefs myself. And I talked to him about them a lot. And I think that the initial conversations were really hard because him being Catholic, they're not the same beliefs that he so strongly believes in, and it's hard for someone that he already had a three or four year long relationship at that point in time to have differing beliefs that they felt so strongly and as well. And so at first it was just, hey, this is what I'm feeling. These are the reasons I'm skeptical about it. I want to hear more about you and your spiritual journey and how you got there. And it kind of opened the door for us to talk about his spirituality more and his religion in a beautiful way that I didn't realize beforehand. So, one, it deepens the relationship because we were both able to talk about this new level and layer because we had differing thoughts, but both very deep thoughts. And I think the hardest part was he had 24, 25 years at that point in time of believing in that. And I had a year, two years. So it was hard for him to see my perspective. But as time has gone on and I've continued to grow even stronger, this it's been easier to have conversations or be like, I'm using the word manifestation, and that's fine if you don't use it. But you know where I'm coming from Now and you know how that feels. So at the beginning it was tough. It wasn't like easy immediately, and it was uncomfortable because it's so important to both of us. This is like your purpose or the thing that you believe in. So treating it delicately and with respect, which is what you should do with any partnership that you're in or any relationship you have, I think that is the foundation that we took for this difficult topic. We were in different ends, but for me, I'm so open minded. He's so open minded and as both being able to agree that we aren't changing what we believe in, but we are accepting and respecting what the other believes in is the greatest common ground that you can come to in that, I think. And then just continuing to talk about how I read this article, I read this book, or when we go to visit his family and we're in mass, I ask questions like, What does that mean? Or Why do you do this? So continuing to be curious about the other person also helps it feel less like a divided household and more like we're both in this together. We just have different views, but our common values are also the same. It's not like either of us believe in something crazy, like we both are kind people and we both believe in very religious Catholic practices of being nice to other people. And I think that at the core, if we were different there, it would be a lot harder. So you have to have the same values. You have to be open minded and you need to hear what the other person's saying and respect what they're saying and be curious and ask them questions about it. Absolutely. And it also sounds like by having those conversations in some ironic way, it's almost like you realize you have more common ground, more in common than you don't. Yeah. You both believe there's something more out there than just us human beings. Yeah. We're probably here for a reason. We are being guided and supported in some way. Yeah. It's important to be kind. Whatever you put out in the world will come back to you in some way. Yeah. See, it's karma. Some say it's something else, but it's always these similar beliefs. We just give them different names and divide each other up into these groups and pretend like we can't talk to one another. Yeah, it's just not true. Yeah. I don't know if you know this, but the woman that gave me many lives, many masters that forever teach. I didn't even realize that there was a person that gave you that. That's a crazy that I'm whole new world explored. Okay. Is a Hasidic Orthodox Jew. Yeah. So, my friend. Sorry. Yes. God had given me this this book because she knew that I was deeply spiritual. I like tarot cards. Yeah. You know, witchy. And she had said, Hey, I read this book written by a psychiatrist. And in Judaism, we believe about past lives. We believe that the soul goes on. Yeah, there's something more. This this consciousness has been and will be again. And I think you're really going to like this book. And I mean, obviously it forever changed my life. Yeah. So many others. It's just really beautiful to think that. We really do have so much in common. Yeah, different names. Absolutely. I think that's a really nice point to bring up where like no matter what you call it, we don't even know what to call it. You don't need to call it or label it anything. You just believe in the same core common values. And even if you don't believe in an afterlife or past lives, there are other things that are related about how you live this life. Absolutely well-said. So speaking a little. Bit about even your relationship with Peter, I want to touch the fact that you guys both took a class at Northwestern. I believe you both get called marriage. He did not take it. I did. Peter. I know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I know. He took a leadership class and said. Boy, Peter, really? I know dinner tonight going to be great. So I want to know, what do you remember from marriage? And even if you remember not. Marriage, 1 to 1, I want us to kind of then said way that introduced a relationship with Peter and the things that you think you guys do really well. I think Yeah, yeah. What I loved about marriage 101 So the teacher also wrote the book that we were reading in the book. Each chapter was talking about something different and had an exercise to do. So it was like homework, but the homework was I mean, it was intense, but it was like, think about people and relationships in your childhood that influence the way that you see love. So a lot of the core foundation of your love now and how you receive love now is actually from your childhood and what you saw and your past or past relationships. And then it's how you cycle out of those bad habits or how you repeat the good habits that you see. And if you have bad examples, you may only fall into those bad examples and then repeat those, or you may see that and want to change that completely. So you are not open to relationships like those that you saw at all. So that's one thing a lot on the history and the past, and it comes to like the psychology of attachment styles as a kid growing up and how your parents interacted with you and the attachment style you had there and how that plays a role in your relationship to And you have different relationship attachment styles. So I think a lot from your childhood impacts, your love now, but it can be easily changed, intertwined with you working and journaling and thinking about it and thinking about how it came to be a huge thing that I remember from marriage when I when there were two big essays that we wrote. One was about a relationship that we went into the city and interviewed a couple that had been married for many years. And we ask them questions about their like how it started, their honeymoon phase, the engagement, the planning wedding, the wedding, and then this post marriage. What is what are your financials like? How do you decide on these difficult issues? How are you different in your religion, and how does that play a role in everyday life? Are you more of an introvert or an extrovert? How does that play into you too? As a couple? We then observed their body language as they were talking at reading, and we wrote a paper on that. And then we did the same for our parents and their love story. And so I called up my parents and interviewed them about it, and I had just formed such a stronger bond to both of them. Through that experience, they divorced, but I got to hear both sides and them talking about it in a positive. And then sometimes light just showed the true sides of marriage that you don't see unless you're in it. So I think that is a great reminder in my relationship now where it's like people on the outside can see great things in it, but we know what makes it special and we get to be around that every day. And that's like the beauty of the relationship. It's just yours, right? I love those essays. I know. Magical. Yeah, it was magical. I also love. What you taught me last night about the restaurant. Can you share that? okay. There's this fun little tidbit of it. Typically, women get a little jealous and so if there are two seats at a restaurant across from each other and one is facing a wall and the other is facing the room in the crowd, the woman will likely sit facing the crowd so that the if they're in a heterosexual relationship, the man will sit across from them and only look at them and the wall and women will be able to see all of the other options out there, whereas the men would be too tempted to. I don't believe in this. But it was. Just a funny little tidbit as I took the seat facing the wall and you got to stare at the empty other seats around us. And. And the one waiter. Yeah. So going back to your relationship with Peter, I mentioned there are so many things you guys do well, many of which I could name, but I wanted to ask you if you two were teaching a relationship class and sharing only one aspect of your relationship, teaching others how to improve theirs. What do you think? YouTube. I don't think we take life too seriously and that can be different for other people. But that is like the core value that we have and it gets back to core values. But the core value of not taking life too seriously and being extremely kind individuals to each other and and that includes patience when talking about things, that includes two strangers when opening the door for them. We just live in a similar way, which is nice and you don't need to be the same as your partner, but you do need to have those same core values. And I think for us it is being laid back about things where if either one of us neither of us got our way, we'd be okay spending time with each other, doing the other person's activity, and we'd spend time together being kind and nice to each other and having so much fun doing that kind of nice. Not like vanilla qualities. In our book, they're like the golden star that we look for in people, and that is like the epitome of a person to us that we want to hang out with. They also have to be fun. Like we don't want to hang out. Yeah, but I think those are both. Like, that's the main thing that we are on the same page about it and we live our lives like that. So if a conflict comes up, we realize it's okay. We don't need to take this too seriously. Let's think about all the angles. Let's figure out both of our thoughts on it and let's talk about it from a very kind person perspective where we see the other side and we're open about it. Yes. And the fact that you mentioned you two were not the same. I think you have this shared, playful spirit. Yeah. Spunky youthfulness. Sometimes I look at him and I feel like he's still just a little boy that loves fantasy. And video games, and he totally is working. Into all of that. It's it's just this fun spirited playfulness. Yeah. Is often lost in the adult. Yeah. And that's one. Of the it's like the bit of glue that really holds you two together. Yeah. Many other. Things. Yeah. Going back to the fact that you two aren't the same, Bernie touched on the fact that you have these different spiritual beliefs and you've been able to find this respect and safety around that. And I also want to touch on the fact that you two eat a little bit different. Can you talk about that? Yeah. I was thinking eating differently. And then also, he's an introvert. I'm an extrovert and dealing with that. And so so I'll touch on the eating first, which will segway into so many things, I'm sure. But he I turned like 90% plant based at this point in time. And we've been living together for a year and a half now. And I was not plant based when we moved in, but I didn't cook meat when we moved in. But he would add his own meat protein to a dish and I would add my own like beans or whatever to a dish. And over the course of the last like nine months or he does not eat any red meat, which is helpful for the environment. But then also me taking these health classes and spewing out little facts, he's like, you know, maybe maybe I should eat more like this. He still has his cold cut turkey sandwich for lunch every day. However, for dinners and breakfast, the things that I make because I love cooking and I love the love language of giving people food and having them enjoy it. I will cook for both of us for breakfasts and dinners and those meals. He now is totally fine. Having be 100% plant based. It's been a transition like the last six months or so where obviously if we're out traveling, he'll get whatever he wants and order it out. And last night he was alone for dinner, so he made salmon. But like, if I'm cooking, he's totally fine having a plant based meal. I was like, Hey, can you get these, like, plant based sausages from the store? And he's like, Yeah, this looks great to me or this one. And he was excited about it. So the transition from six years ago when we both eat the same to then both of us giving up red meat to then me becoming more vegetarian, him staying the same to then me becoming more plant based us living together and having semi different proteins for each meal to then him being like wait, the food you make is really good. Not going. To lie. So let me then just eat it. And I know the benefits that I'm getting from eating it, so why should I fight this? So that's a huge thing. In your own journey, I had known that you had been kind of vegetarian. I don't think I know or knew. Why was it so. So in college, I became a pescatarian because it was not a rebellious thing for me. But I was just like, I make my own choices now. One of my best friends was vegan or vegetarian for like ten years prior. And so I was like, okay, I see this around me. It seems great. It was semi environment, but that's just like what people say that care about the environment. Like, I didn't really know why I knew, you know, the water that it takes for a cow is so much in the land that they consume. So I knew the basics, but I didn't really understand why and I did not realize the health benefits at all when I did it. And then I lived in my sorority house where it was kind of impossible to be a pescatarian. So then I went back to eating some meat and then I realized, you know what? I can have fun with vegetarian dishes. A lot of my friends are vegetarian, a lot of my friends are vegan. These are the people I kind of want to be like and be around more. Why is that? There's definitely no correlation necessarily between being a vegan and being a cool person, though. Maybe there is I, but I just feel like so many of the people around me and in my life where vegan or vegetarian that I aspired to be like. And so that was the instigating moment for me where I was like, why not be more like them? And cooking? I didn't love to cook meat. There was no enjoyment aspect of it. It kind of felt like, okay, you're cooking chicken, you're seasoning it with something, and then it tastes like that. Whereas with vegetarian, you could try different things, but sauce mattered more. There was more flavor that you could add to things. You got a control of the spices. It felt more like a creative artform, which I guess is another reason that I was drawn to it. I like that you can use almost the challenge of being in in order to get more creative. Yes. I found that even when I go to restaurants, it sometimes call ahead If it's a restaurant where it's a little trickier to be the vegetarian, let's say, Hey, we got four plant-based eaters coming. Is the chef able to prepare anything so often? Chef is like, interesting. That's fun. What can I do with vegetables? Yes. So I like using the the challenge to just be more creative. I think it totally is. And not that you can't be creative with other food that has been shown time and time again, but I think it's newer to be creative with vegetables or vegan dishes because it hasn't been done as much. So you can be equally as creative because there are as many flavors as there are with meat dishes, in my opinion, because all about the spices in the sauces and everything you do to the meat. I agree. So speaking of plant based eating. I know that you're both very. About all of these reasons to be plant based the health, the environment, the animals, just all the things. Yeah. General generally better for humanity as a whole. And we took the same plant based nutrition course. Do you remember when you were even taking the course? Were there certain themes lessons that you had learned that were the most compelling for you that made you decide to transition to being more plant based? So before it was like a lot of the environmental reasons, and through that class, it then totally switched to be more of the health reasons. I think I'm a very data backed science person. Like I track my sleep every night and making sure that I get the right amount, that my REM cycles are the same. And for me, seeing the data, I think it was just lot of cardiovascular data that stood out to me first, like that's what I can remember. But many other studies that they had in all of the classes were just constantly drilling home. The point that plant based eating is better. You don't have your arteries clogged as much. You are living longer. You know all of the blue zone areas. I loved that aspect and I know that you love that too. I think those were the areas where I was like, wait a second, there's science behind this. So we should be. Doing it and it tastes great still. And if you combine different things, you make a very holistic diet with just plants, which you don't learn growing up. You learn to you learn that goat milk is a campaign and you learn to eat protein and you learn that bread is bad if you want to go on a diet. But actually all of those things are kind of false and so it was taking all the beliefs and the marketing that we grew up with and flipping it on its head. And that's when I was like, I like this because you're showing me the science behind. Why yours is right, or This way of eating is a healthier way of eating. Absolutely. And I know something we were even talking about this morning while we were preparing our breakfast that, you know, food is not just fuel, but as I was sharing that column, I love that food is medicine. That quote that I kept saying of what food. Medicine and medicine be they food. Yeah. Every meal we make, we almost set the intention of May this heal our bodies. I love. That. Yeah. And it it just makes the food probably energetically more medicinal. And when you're staring at all that has kale and sweet potatoes and chickpeas, and you know that every antioxidant polyphenol phytonutrients there is going to heal you in some way. It's going to have the microbiome is going to help your brain. It's all of that. It just I mean, it gets me excited. Yeah. From within. Just eating this delicious thing. Absolutely. And what you just said there with gut and the microbiome, I think that was a huge thing too, because you have so many organisms in your microbiome and your gut. You like as many as the rest of your body or more. I can't even remember. And I was like, Wait a second, we can control that. We can control what we're feeding it if we're feeding it too much sugar. And then the bad cells are growing more, whatever it is like, we can control what that is. And by feeding it nutrients and this nourishing food, we can actually help it. And this is like the biggest part of our body that helps everything run. Obviously, there's so many parts of our body that are important, but our gut helps monitor so much. Yes, immune systems. Sleep, mood, everything. And I mean, there are so many studies that I find compelling, I think, to that I want to quickly mention here, because you. Yeah. But there's always be the skeptical push of. Well, what about the way we used to eat as one gathers and didn't we evolved to be these hefty, masculine meat eating hunter men. And as we were sharing that, actually, when we look at fecal matter from those days, we find that we're still eating predominantly plant based because we didn't always get the kill that we wanted. And yet it was based on what the women and the children were gathering that was actually feeding the community. But on top of that, in terms of the argument against, you know, did we evolve to be a certain way? Those two studies that we were reading, the one, the 1990 study that came out, I think in the American Journal of Cardiology or something like that, that talked about that they found if you feed any cholesterol to, a carnivore, say a dog, you can feed them endless amounts of cholesterol, saturated fat, you name it, and their arteries will not fail. But if you feed any cholesterol to an herbivorous or mainly herbivorous animal like a rabbit that they did in the study, you will instantly clog their arteries and promote heart disease. And so that was a groundbreaking revolutionary study for the world of cardiology, because they found that perhaps humans are more obvious when they are omnivorous. And then there was also that 2003 meta analysis of over 50 different studies that showed all of the physiological similarities that humans have with these herbivorous animals. Yeah, like one we were talking about is that carnivores produce their own vitamin C because they don't consume any vitamin C in their diet. Humans and herbivore cannot produce their own vitamin C because they have to consume it in their foods. And where do we get our writing? We see only from plant foods. So studies like that almost give me chills. Absolutely. Because I think it addresses the common question that I get. The most common one for are you plant based? We weren't plant based as a society when we were hunters gatherers. It answers those questions. And I think that that is just such great. Again science to prove that we weren't necessarily the carnivorous creatures we think that we were because we had the title Hunters and Gatherers. Absolutely. And then there was that quote that I showed you, I think, from Kim Williams, who used to be the president of the American College of Cardiology, and he said there are two types of cardiologists, vegans and those who haven't read the research. Exactly. Those kinds of quotes are just so eye opening. Yeah. Even as we're sitting here now, we're sharing all this information in a completely non-judgmental way. Absolutely. I mean, we were just talking about how much we adore your fiance, Peter, who each in a different way. And that's totally, totally. But I think just being aware of the research and being able to evaluate for yourself. Yeah. What you want, you know, am I am I willing to potentially give up a year or two of my life in order to enjoy this food or what matters to you? And just being aware of the pros and cons on both directions is really important. Yeah, I think the biggest thing I was trying to get clear on why in the food space and I think the biggest thing is to give people the choice. I don't want to force people to be plant based or vegan. I want them to just know the research. No, I learned last year and that changed my world. And if it doesn't change their world, that's okay. But I feel like as a society, we don't have a nutrition course required of all high schoolers graduating. And I think that would be really beneficial so that everyone could just get this foundation because right now it's based on marketing or fad diets or these influencers that may not have the actual science backing them up but are popular. So they're being heard. And so with all of those, I want make sure that we are spreading correct information that we are spreading like the science behind things, that then people are fueled to be able to make the decisions that they want. And I think there's a third component, which may get controversial or political, but it's like we need to stop lobby groups from lobbying and spending money on the potato chip industry or the sugar industry or the meat and dairy industry. And there is this one lobby. I love pizza, but there was this one lobby group called like the Pizza Lovers lobby group, and it was to lobby for having more pizza. And they, like all they're trying to do is like, get more pizza out there in the world. And who doesn't love pizza? It's phenomenal. However, everything in moderation, you know, And like, you don't need to have pizza every day. But these lobbyists, like they want that. And a huge thing that broke my heart during the class was reading about all these lobby groups. And I would like cry to Peter every night and I would be like, How is our world and our government set up where people can get paid $10,000 to vote no on having there be a subsidy for vegetables and the vegetable industry and how that can actually be cost efficient for people to buy instead of the sodas that they're buying. Like what if your plans were priced as sodas? Imagine a world where that existed. So that's the third and final thing that I want to do is, one, educate people to have them be able to make the choice and then, three, give them an actual representative, affordable solution in their stores. I really love that answer, because even what you said about educating people that I recently had a podcast with Dr. Shannon Smith, one of the first interviews, and she had been a pediatrician and she shared with me, she said, Do you know how much nutrition education I was given in med school? And I said, I don't know, maybe a class. And she said, One hour. Yeah. And so I bring that up to say we can no longer rely on even the people we deem as experts, you know, to give us this information. We need to educate ourselves. We need to look at the studies. We need to find reputable resources and really make those choices for ourselves and not just rely on what one person is saying or whatever, like find the actual data, the research, the studies, and also what you're saying about lobby groups. I could not agree with more. And I remember even in my health coaching certification, one of the most emotional lectures, I say emotional because I had the same emotional reaction you did where I was just upset almost to tears. There was this man who had been a cattle rancher his whole life that had gotten really deep into learning about the lobby groups, and eventually he learned about plant based nutrition. Had this really fascinating journey. I wish I could remember his name, but he shared just some of what actually goes on behind the scenes. And he essentially said, this is not some sort of conspiracy theory. I mean, this is real. Yeah. People in power that are trying to keep the healing information, the information that will help us heal our planet and ourselves out of our hands. And so that's why it's all about really educating yourself or I mean, you can't rely on anyone else. Yeah. I totally agree. So this is a PSA for all schools. Get nutrition course. It does not need to be plant based eating. It just needs to be. Here's what a micronutrient does to you. Here is a carbohydrate. Don't fear them just general knowledge. And it does not need to be a psych study that is like plant based. Eating is the only way to live. It's just presentation of knowledge that people can then make an informed decision. Absolutely. And speaking about not. Hearing carbohydrates, I just wanted to slip that in. That is one the biggest questions I get. really? What I eat and they see that I'm eating bananas and beans and potatoes and people are always like, but carbs. I can have some potato, but not too much crazy. I know. And I bring that up because I also used to feel the same way. I don't know if you know this, in high school I was essentially on like a strict diet. Yeah, yeah, tons of me, no carbs and I think my energy levels were really low because of it. That's a whole other thing. But when I went plant based, I started eating more of these carbohydrates because I learned that our bodies run carbohydrates, including your brain, which consumes 25% of the power of hydrates, the glucose you're eating. Yeah. The first week that I went plant based, I had to run twice a day because I was so unused to having that much energy. I felt more clearheaded I felt just ecstatic about life. It's like I was filled up with life force energy again. So it's just that, I mean, we can talk about the health benefits all we want, but even the emotional benefits of actually feeding your body what it uses for fuel and medicine. Yes. Revolutionary. It's the it's the medicine, it's the nutrients, it's everything. And it is something that you can easily make the switch to do where one week you try it, maybe you won't feel any different. But if you do, that's worth noting. Absolutely. So with your Instagram plant forward. Sabrina Yeah, can you share how you decided on that name mission? Why Plant. Forward? Yes. So I worked in marketing and I was like, is important. I don't know if I am good at it, but I know that it's important. So I know that a good name is important. I wanted there to be something with my name, since that's not going away and I wanted it to be about the food that I was making. And like I have said on this podcast, I do not want to force people into being vegan. I do not want to like force them into being plant based. I cook 90% plant based. When I have friends come over, sometimes I add some cheese to a dish so that maybe they'll like it more if they're not used to a plant based cheese. Or maybe, I mean, I think cheese is like the mostly what I do, but I get away with everything else. But it's like I mostly make things vegan. But on the occasion where maybe I want to add an egg to something, I think that's okay to do that in life. And so it's keeping a balance to life, which, you know, is super important to me, whether it's in my career, my work playing pickleball still, whether it's being able to call you and go for a walk on the same day that I'm filming something, or whether it's in the food that I'm eating. And if I want to have a Christian in France that has butter in it, I of course am going to do that. So plant forward came from the idea that you don't need to 100% commit and feel like you are in this box that you can't get out of. Why don't you try these recipes? If you like them, great. Maybe not all of them will be 100% plant based. Maybe there will be vegans out there that do not like that. However, I feel like for me it's the perfect way of living my life. Absolutely. And I think because you're doing it in a way that's so authentic to you and truly what your values are that you don't have to go 100%. Yeah. Yeah. The right people will resonate with that message. Yeah. And I feel like even for myself, have changed so much my thinking journey, because when I went vegan, I mean, I went vegan overnight in Turkey and that's just my personality. I am yeah, really good at the extremes. Yeah. Which is why I love the balance you bring to your life. And therefore tried. Yes. Absolutely. And when I went vegan, going completely cold turkey because it was almost easy for me. And it wasn't easy. I mean, everyone was against me. My family thought I was crazy friends, that I was nutso and I had days where I was like, I don't even know if I'm doing this right, but because I had the ability to just cut it cold turkey, I was confused. The other people weren't like that. And I feel like They're not crazy. Yeah, I But Yeah, if you want, place your plants to your plate and yeah, just do a little bit. Yeah. Going in the right direction that feels in alignment for you. Yeah. So I'm here for the platform. Thank you. Yeah. I think you're getting the best part, which is like, you're not going to stick to something if you don't fully believe it or you're not buying into it yourself. So, like I know myself, and if I were in Italy and one of my friends got gelato and I was fully plant based and I wouldn't be able to get it because they had no sorbet there or something, I would be upset and I would be like, I'm not living life to the fullest. And I think that's like the playful, fun, adventurous, the magic in going to an ice cream shop. Literally, I and I think that is a crucial part of my life that I want to make sure that people know you don't need to 100% be this in order to be healthy or considered plant based Absolutely. Fun. Fun cool cool cool cool go let's keep going but so much we can say about. The plant based. Yeah your Instagram journey but I feel like we've covered a lot of time. Yeah I think so. I want to bring it to the Rapid Fire. I love it. But before we go there, I just want to ask if there's anything else on your heart or your mind that we haven't touched on, that you want to share. Now, this is this has been great. I feel like the quick tidbit of plant based eating of like a fun activity. If you're trying to go plant based or eat more plants. So this is something that I learned in the class that you and I took. And it's try to have 30 different varieties of plants a week and that can be anything from different vegetables. So broccoli, green beans, that's two already to your nuts and legumes. You have walnuts, pecans, and then let's say garbanzo beans and kidney beans and something else. So try to count all 30 in a week and get 30 different sources because each one has different micronutrients and things that they will add to your body and the medicine that you need. And so a fun activity that Peter and I did when I was just starting to go plant base is we would count in all of our meals to get to that 30. And it was way easier than we thought to get to 30 in a week. So just take that as a little piece of fun activity to add If you're trying to go a little more plant forward. If you do have I. Know I truly love that tidbit because they say the more variety of plant foods in your diet, the healthier your microbiome, which we already talked about. It's huge. Of course, we got to turn it. It's a game. It's it's always a game. Okay. Now we have the rapid fire question game. So there are four questions. The first one, easy, personalized for the guests. love it. Because you're apparently into food and all that. I wanted to ask what your favorite cuisine meal or recipe is at this point in time. What are you currently obsessed with? I always have been obsessed with Mediterranean food. It is the flavors of a swarm type dish with the creaminess of it as you go in there and the crispiness of a fry in a pita zero. And now I make it. I make it with shredded tofu now. And it's the best thing ever. It's a great idea. I should have made that we may be making this week. this week? Also, if anyone wants your recipes, I highly. Yeah. Plant forward Sabrina on Instagram. There it is. What a plug. This is the whole reason I'm on here. Just kidding. Okay, Second question is, what is your favorite health or spiritual practice that you do that you would recommend for everyone? It's just that awesome. And. Walking daily is always great. I think that that's like a really basic one. It makes me feel more grounded and connected, so it's spiritual in that way. It's healthy because you're getting outside and then if you do it with a friend or you call a friend or a parent or somebody else while you're doing it, you kind of get that emotional attachment as well, which is spiritual in ways So walking. And then if you don't like walking yoga, do something at your home. I love that. Okay. So book very like move your body, Move. Your body, do it, move it, do to move it. Just move it. Move. Like, you know just that's the tagline. That's the tagline. There it is. it's okay. So question number three. What does the world need most for global healing and upward at this point in time? There's a lot about compassion that jumped to my mind right away. It's like that being a kind person and just being open minded. I think actually, you know, open mindedness. I think the world needs more open mindedness. Maybe that's not open minded of me to say. But but I think that just hearing the other person, hearing them, you don't need to agree with it, but like treating them with respect and being open minded, what they're saying instead of completely closed off, I think that can help a lot of the healing in the conflict because I don't think that people are even listening these days. Absolutely. And I feel like that has been honestly a common thread or theme throughout today's conversation about the differences in spiritual beliefs or eating patterns, and that at the end of the day, we all have much more in common than we don't. And just listen, ask questions, be curious. Yeah, you'll find out that there's so much common ground. Exactly. Last question What is your one wish or ask for everyone listening today? You've been listening. I do something that find fun in the next 24 hours. You just just be inspired to do one thing that is either like for your childhood self that you find spontaneous on the street. Maybe it's calling up a friend, maybe it's sending them that text that says that they're great, you're grateful for them, whatever. To do something that like will make your heart smile. my gosh, that makes me really cry. I don't know. And we're going to have to do it then the next 24 hours. So there are so many. Takeaways from today's episode. We have do something fun sense that I'm thinking of you Text message. You're my role. Model. Text message? Yeah. Pick up a phone call for a walk. Yeah. Only eat plant based ever. Yeah, that's a message plant. See how many you can eat a week? What are some other about? You know, friendships and relationships. Don't put pressure on the amount of communication you have with someone. The open mindedness, I think, comes to mind. Well, and treat people with kindness and respect. These seem really basic. It feels like. We're. I would say. Maybe the last one is following breadcrumbs. I like that. They won't let you astray. Yeah, I like that. Thanks for coming over. And for everyone listening out there, we will see you next week She will. I will not bite hey, my friends. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. If you couldn't tell between the laughs, the chuckles, but giggles, I had an absolute blast talking to Sabrina. But I also took so many nuggets of wisdom away from the conversation. She inspires me each and every day to be more spontaneous, more present. Enjoy the small things in life. Find more joy in the everyday, and most importantly, find a little bit more balance, which is something that I can often struggle with. So I hope that you to had a few nuggets of wisdom that really resonated. And if they did, please share that with a friend or family member and we can share some of the wisdom and the joy of Sabrina Kenny. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share this show with a friend or family member. I'm really aimed at creating this community of like minded souls, people that want to spread more love and light and good in the world. And by sharing this episode with a friend or family member who might get something important out of it, you will have done just that. You will have just spread a little bit more love, light and good. Okay, friends, I already cannot wait to see you again next week. Until then. Bye for now.