The Alimond Show
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The Alimond Show
Matt Knott - Navigating Success with River Riders' Outdoor Adventures
When was the last time you felt the pulse of the river beneath a raft or the rush of wind on a zipline? Matt Knott, the adventurous spirit behind River Riders, invites us to navigate the twists and turns of his journey from a college raft guide to the entrepreneur who, alongside his wife, shaped an outdoor utopia in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia. Peeling back the layers of their story, we get an insider's look at the challenges and triumphs of growing a business that now encompasses not just rafting, but a full spectrum of adventure and hospitality services.
Embark on our latest episode as we sail through the marketing seas that help adventure sports companies like River Riders thrive. Discover the blend of social media acumen, targeted Google campaigns, and the invaluable currency of word-of-mouth that draws nature enthusiasts to Harpers Ferry's scenic allure. And as we chart the parallels between the resurgence of the ski industry and the blossoming summer adventure sports scene, Matt shares his vision of embracing the wave of outdoor recreation providers to gear up for a summer brimming with thrill-seekers ready to plunge into River Riders' offerings.
Matt Knott River Riders and we're an outdoor adventure sports company in Harpers Ferry, west Virginia, and we have a variety of water activities like rafting and tubing, zipline tours. We have a campground, vacation rental homes and some food service restaurant options.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you guys have been around for quite a while, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so River Riders started in the seventies. It was moved to the current location in 1987. And then my wife and I purchased it in 1998. I started working there as a raft guy in 1994 when I was in college and then, after I graduated, the guy who owned it at the time was retiring and he owner financed it to us. So I was 24. My wife was 23 at the time and is this what you guys have always done?
Speaker 1:Yeah, pretty much. I mean because I had other random jobs when I was in college, like delivering pizza, worked at Sheetz, that kind of stuff. But yeah, otherwise, I got a business degree and my minor was recreation. But when I first graduated I went to work for State Farm underwriting insurance. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was still raft guiding on the weekends and then the. You know I knew that really wasn't what I wanted to do long term. But the opportunity came up to purchase the business and we didn't have any money at the time. But the guy that owned it knew me because I had worked for him for four years and the business was pretty small at the time. So he owner financed it to us. So that's how we were able to get into. The business was pretty small at the time, so he owner financed it to us.
Speaker 2:So that's how we were able to get into the business. Tell me a little bit how you got into rafting and outdoor sports.
Speaker 1:I mean, I grew up right outside of Harpers Ferry and so I always saw people doing it, you know, rafting and going down the river. When I was growing up we never really did, you know. We would go fishing and stuff with my parents that really, you know, weren't into that kind of thing. So I actually grew up on a dairy farm.
Speaker 2:In Harper's Ferry area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean closer to Shepherdstown. But yeah, pretty close.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I always kind of was interested in it. I had some friends that did it and actually my older brother brother raft guided for a year before I did. And yeah, then a buddy of mine was just I think he saw an ad in a newspaper or something for raft guides and so he was just like, hey, you want to go try to be a raft guide this summer? And I said yeah, and then we went down there. A funny thing was it was actually the company that was running the ad was actually a different company. We went to the wrong one. Oh, no.
Speaker 1:But it ended up working out in the end. But yeah, he guided. He only guided for a year and then he quit the one and I've basically been doing it ever since.
Speaker 2:Been doing it ever since, yeah. Tell me what it was like taking over an established business at such a young age? What?
Speaker 1:challenges did you guys face and overcome? So you know, like I said, the business was pretty small at the time. The good thing was I really liked it, like I I liked raft guiding and I was kind of trying to figure out how I could stay in the industry. Um, you know, after I graduated, where'd you graduate from?
Speaker 1:uh, shepherd, oh yeah. Oh yes, my wife and I met there, so, um, so we um yeah, so. So basically, I was trying to find a way to stay in the industry and you know, raft guiding is seasonal. Really, the only way you can do it in the long run is either to do raft guiding in the summer and do like skiing in the winter, or or go to South America or something in the winter and guide down there.
Speaker 1:So it's you know, like because of the climate yeah, yeah, because it gets too cold in the winter, people want to do it. So, um, you know, because of the climate, yeah, yeah, cause it gets too cold in the winter, people want to do it. So, um, you know so. So I was kind of trying to figure that out. Um, I knew like I really liked the industry. I'd actually been looking into some other stuff, like maybe, um, getting into outdoor retail or something like that, to stay in the industry. But, um, you know, so, when, when we bought the, bought the business, there was definitely a steep learning curve, but since I had been working there, so what happened actually was the internet started. That's kind of what prompted the guy that his name is Mark Grimes, that we bought it from, prompted him to kind of want to move on, was he didn't really want to get like he didn't have a computer.
Speaker 2:He was old school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he didn't want to get involved in the internet or any of that kind of stuff, and so I was actually helping him. He was trying to get a webpage started and that's actually kind of how we started talking about it, because I was helping him, like, try to figure out about getting a website started and um, and this was 1998 no, no, this was uh 90. Well, so I started there in 94.
Speaker 2:This was probably um like 96 97 yeah, so just when things were kind of starting to come out with websites, that's real, because I mean I remember doing like a website back then like myself, like coding basic html.
Speaker 1:I mean it was like much simpler, you know, I mean it's probably before google existed, I think. Like I think it was aol, probably back oh, sure, yeah, yeah and you had like dial up and all that, yes, it took forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah so um so.
Speaker 1:So I had some knowledge of the background of the business. It was pretty simple because then we mainly only did rafting. We did a little bit of tubing, but mainly just rafting, and so we only had like one activity offering really Okay. So you know, and I had already worked at like I was a cashier at Sheetz, I delivered pizza. So I already had like a bit of like how the like money side business part of it works from that aspect. So it wasn't like super complex initially with all those kind of things. So he also helped me for a couple of months, like the first summer. So we bought it in June, like right before the season kind of was getting going. So he helped me the first summer like with you know business kind of passing the torch over.
Speaker 2:And since he underfinanced it.
Speaker 1:To me he definitely invested in us succeeding, you know.
Speaker 1:So, um, so he helped me with it, so I don't remember it being like overly difficult. Um, you know, I think there were like some new things like advertising, my my uh concentration in in marketing, so I had a bit of like familiarity with it. But, um, but, um, you know, kind of like getting involved in advertising, um, like making ads and then seeing, like at the time the biggest thing was advertising the Washington Post and it was like five hundred dollars for like a little ad like this big um, you know, and I remember like we would run ads in the Washington Post every week.
Speaker 1:Um, that was kind of our main advertising which now we don't even advertise in the Washington Post at all.
Speaker 2:I know it's come a long way, right. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So but that was definitely our biggest thing, you know kind of advertising thing, back then. I think the other thing was just learning how to work with employees, because you know, the day before I was a RAF guy that the next day I was the owner and like a lot of them were older than me and they they had been there for a long time. Oh that I'm sorry that's okay, no worries that's, uh, that's because my kids, if they call you, know it overrides them.
Speaker 1:So, um you know, the day before I was an employee, and then the you know the next day. Um, you know, I'm the boss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how was that transition?
Speaker 1:Uh, it was. You know I would say it was kind of tough at first, um, with some, only with some of the people, though. I mean, um, you know, I I had to learn kind of like separate myself, and you know, like when you're the, when you're the boss, you always have to be the boss. You can't like be their buddy like half the time and then try to be their boss the other half of the time, and so that kind of like you know, cause the RAF guy community is like pretty close. I mean, like you know, people hang out after work. It's not like I mean, yeah, it's work, but it's it's really like kind of like a family environment it's kind of a culture too, right yeah yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:So you know it's, I had to like try to separate myself sometimes because you know I was used to like hanging out with everybody after work and you know doing all those kind of things, and so I still did that. I think like it took me a couple years to realize that I probably needed to separate myself a little more, because you know, then, like during the day, people are like, hey, man, you know, do me a favor this or that, so so, um, so you kind of had to set those boundaries and expectations that was probably the hardest thing like doing that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I had to get my CDL because we had a bus and we had to take people to the river to get a CDL. So I got my CDL in like a month after we and it was a stick shift bus. Oh wow, which is like different than a stick. I mean I knew I'd drive a stick shift car but a stick shift bus like the shifter was like two feet. Had to learn how to drive a bus and all that in like a month. But yeah, I think nothing like nothing crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, he must have had a lot of trust in you to turn this business over to you. Did he give you any good advice?
Speaker 1:You know, like looking back on it now, it's hard to say, but you know, having worked with him for those years, you know like looking back on it now, it's hard to say but I but um, you know, having worked with him for those years, you know, and seeing how he operated, I kind of saw the things that that I thought were good and the things that I, you know, thought I could do differently. Um, so, yeah, I think he was very influential, but, like saying it off the top of my head right now, I don't know, yeah, but he was clearly a mentor to you yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:And and he and I were pretty close for quite a few years after um the the I mean I think I had to owner finance it, probably five years. So, um, he would come by every month to get his check and uh, so we would always talk, at least that often, even after um. But um, yeah, he lived pretty close so he and I talked for, you know, quite a few years after the transaction. So, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you talked a little bit about advertising in the Washington Post. Obviously, we no longer do that. What are you guys doing these days for advertising and marketing to get people in?
Speaker 1:these days for advertising and marketing to get people in. So I mean social media is pretty big, you know, for that kind of organic advertising. I mean we definitely do a lot of Facebook and Instagram. We do some TikTok I don't really do it myself, but we have a marketing manager who does that and then we do like Google ads and Facebook ads. So I mean it's mostly all digital. We do a little bit of print, like we have a brochure We'll make, sometimes make specialty flyers and stuff for events, but we don't really do. I mean we we partner with our own Convention Visitors Bureau locally so we do some joint advertising with them. We do some joint advertising with the state of West Virginia. It's fortunate for us the state of West Virginia is pretty good to work with as far as tourism because it's such a big industry in West Virginia it's huge like relative, it's a big industry for West Virginia.
Speaker 1:It is huge. Yeah, like relative, it's a big industry for West Virginia, so they're a great partner to work with. So we do partner with them a decent amount. But the majority of what we spend most of our time on when we're talking about marketing is either social media or something on Google or paid ads. I mean, we obviously have a couple couple websites that we have our different offerings.
Speaker 2:What do you think is working best for you right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really think it's a combination. I don't think you can do one without the other.
Speaker 1:You know it's different people are getting the information differently. I mean, sometimes with with Google, you can target, you know, like people that are in town or people that are looking for Harper's Ferry that might not know we exist. But I really think you know, even once they look at that, then they want to try to find out about your business. So then they go to social media to learn about you. So I think you have to it's, it's kind of everything kind of the whole package without the other yeah, I think if you don't do a piece of it, you're gonna miss out on some of it.
Speaker 1:Um, and also, I mean the biggest thing for us is um is word of mouth, like repeat business and and people referring their friends. So I think also, a lot of times if people tell their friends about them, they want to look.
Speaker 2:I know we've gone as a family to River Riders and we loved it. It was so great. Everybody was on top of their game, Everybody was happy and happy to be outside and share that experience with people that might normally not get a chance to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's definitely the most rewarding part of it, for sure. Yeah, you know it's kind of like people that would, you know, do that kind of stuff on their own. They don't come to River Riders, but the majority of people are not going to, you know, go down whitewater or do that kind of stuff without being with somebody. So I feel like we have a much kind of bigger um, um ability to share with people that you know, if that's not like your thing you do every day, then you can go do it and, you know, feel comfortable that you're going to be safe and have a tour guide, yeah, and feel comfortable that you're going to be safe and feel safe and have a tour guide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it sounds like you've grown the business quite a lot since the 90s.
Speaker 1:What have you?
Speaker 2:guys added.
Speaker 1:Well, so the biggest thing was when we purchased the business, tubing was like pretty small. I mean, like a big day for us for tubing back then would maybe be like 100 people or something, and that business really grew during the 2000s or the early 2000s. I mean a big day now for tubing is around 2000 people. So, yeah, so it's. I mean that that activity itself has grown a lot, but we kind of were running out of space and so we needed to. I mean, it's mainly we need more space for parking, honestly. So we started looking at the properties around us, but at the time in the 2000s, the real estate market was pretty good. And then after 2008, when the market crashed, all the people around us that have been kind of speculating like a lot of them kind of got in financial trouble and so then they were interested in selling and so then we were able to acquire basically like all the properties around us.
Speaker 1:So, we're in this little area of Harvest Ferry that is owned, commercial. Most Harvest Ferry is like a national park or residential or agricultural. There's, there's only there's, basically where we are. There's a hotel adjacent to us which we own for several years and then there's a big KOA campground. There's like this stretch that's commercial. Everything else is like, not developable. So when we started we had an acre and a half and we would park people on the road and then the then like people would get, and then like people would get mad because, like our neighbors would get mad because there were cars parked on the road, oh sure.
Speaker 1:So we needed space to park, honestly. So our next-door neighbor immediately was a real estate developer and he kind of needed to sell property so he started selling like parcels. So where we were was actually a housing development that only had one house and us and all the rest of the land had not been developed, but we had about all the lots in the housing development individually, which is not the good way to buy them.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, but yeah so we basically bought the whole housing development, bought the one house that was there. They ended up selling to us quite a few years later, but they sold us. So we went from one acre to. We had about 70 acres at one point when we owned the hotel.
Speaker 2:And do you guys still have the hotel?
Speaker 1:No, we owned it for six years. We sold it in 21.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, the hotel was I mean, honestly, it had been mismanaged and it was in pretty bad shape. So we bought it in foreclosure and we put a lot of money into it and kind of renovated it and fixed it up. It was a great addition to our business. That's kind of like a a bigger discussion. We we actually sold the majority interest in our business to a private equity company. But, um, at the same time we were doing that, we sold the hotel to a group of hoteliers okay so um because that's a totally different industry yeah, but but it works really well together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because people could come and stay and do all the outdoor activities.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Zip lining and whitewater rafting and tubing and make a weekend out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely so when we were buying these properties around us, we we bought a riverfront parcel because we need a river access, and one thing about harvard sherry is because it's almost all a national park.
Speaker 1:There's hardly anywhere to get in the river yeah and so, um, basically there's three outfitters there now there were seven at one point we noticed three of us but, um, the three of us all own our own access and that's really the reason that we can operate, because there's nothing else available Interesting. The Park Service owns everything up and down the river and we own the parcels immediately adjacent to the Park Service.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So it's good from the trip aspect because you get this beautiful scenery with no development. It's just trees in the river. But as soon as you get to the edge we all have little lots that we own to get in the river.
Speaker 2:Oh, so, like your drop-off point at the river. Yeah, like Pointer Rocks, or.
Speaker 1:So Pointer Rocks is a little below us but we Ours are so right above Harper's Ferry, like it's Millville Road for the Shenandoah, so you know that allows us to get in the river. It's crazy. I've been on like many different boards in Jefferson County now, but Jefferson County, west Virginia, is the county that Harpers Ferry is in. There's one public access on the Potomac River. It's the entire border of the county. There's one public access.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't realize that border of the county.
Speaker 1:There's one public access as a travesty. Yeah, I have you know. I have expressed my like concerns about that for so many years. The only access on the potomac river that's public is in shepherdstown, which is 12 miles of total flat water upstream from harbors ferry.
Speaker 2:It's not like not usable, not if you want to put in for to do the rapids.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you want to put in for just boating on flat water, it's great, but to get the harb, I mean if you want to put in for just boating on flat water, it's great, but to get to Harvest Ferry is no good. So we own the only other access and we do let people use it, but we own the only other access in the whole county on the Potomac River. That's public.
Speaker 2:So there's way more to this than one might think, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's kind of like the whole rafting industry is very similar. A lot of the companies have. It's not like a technically expensive industry to get into. I mean, you can go buy some tubes and start a tubing company, right. But the problem is, where are you going to get in the river is the whole issue, because we see it kind of across the country. We're actually in the process of acquiring a rafting company in Pennsylvania right now. That actually might happen tomorrow. This is exciting, yeah, but they have like strategic access points to the river. It's the same thing. You go to Colorado like the raft companies. They have like a good access point to the river Because you don't want to do like 10 extra miles of something you don't want to do to get to the part of the river you do want to do.
Speaker 2:Right do like 10 extra miles of something you don't want to do to get to the part of the river you do want to do. Right, see what I mean. So, like the rapids are here, slow day on the river, yeah, the river's low or it takes you a couple hours to get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's kind of like you don't really you never really intended it to be that way initially, but like in hindsight, when you look back at it, that's kind of how it ends up?
Speaker 2:yeah, and tell me a little bit about what you guys added to increase your business during the winter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in well, we actually we started thinking about it quite a few years ago, but, but we added snow tubing and it's definitely our biggest kind of investment that we've ever done. We put in a full like snow making system, just like you would see at a ski resort, and actually we've added even additional snow making that most ski resorts don't have, which allows us to make snow when it's above freezing. It's actually it's a pretty cool technology, but it's actually basically a sea container and you make the snow inside the sea container and then blow it out already frozen. Oh, interesting, yeah, so they use it in California and Florida. You can make snow at 80 degrees or whatever it is, so we actually have the ability to make snow now when you know, I mean technically, you can make it in the summer.
Speaker 1:We haven't done that. We may for special events, we've talked about it. Yeah, so we can make snow and have a much longer season than you would expect to have in the summer. We haven't done that. We may for special events, we've talked about it. But yeah, so we can make snow and have a much longer season than you would expect.
Speaker 2:That's a pretty big addition.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was, it was pretty expensive.
Speaker 2:So how did that go this past year?
Speaker 1:It was great. I mean, we have the longest hill that I know of. It's 900 feet long. I don't know if anybody else that has one in the east is that long. Um, it's uh, so so you get a longer ride. Um, with the snowmaking technology that we have, we had a six foot base for most of the whole winter.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, when when it, we have both kinds of snowmaking, so we have the traditional kind that you would see at a ski resort. Obviously, we don't get much natural snow here, but as long as it's below freezing at night, we'll make it at night, and so when we have stretches of a couple nights we can make a couple feet of snow.
Speaker 2:That's awesome yeah.
Speaker 1:And we have a magic carpet conveyor or whatever. To get back to the top, yeah, my kids love that.
Speaker 2:have a magic carpet, conveyor or whatever to get back to the top. Yeah, my kids love that. Yeah, yeah, a little magic carpet.
Speaker 1:It's pretty funny. Half the kids like that better than the two of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just as entertaining, for sure. Where do you guys see yourselves going in the next five, ten years, as far as growth Sounds? Like you've grown a lot already. Yeah, and now you're maybe acquiring something in Pennsylvania, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we I mean our business partners are, you know, in conjunction with our business partners, I should say we are looking at other RAF companies across the country that you know are similar to us, but just in a different market. I'll say, okay, that are similar to us, but just in a different market. I'll say so. I don't know if you're familiar with the Vale story, but the ski industry, A little bit yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so now that we're in tubing, I've been going to the ski industry conference for quite a few years now but the ski industry was really flat or going down for a long time. Like since the 80s. There hasn't been much growth in the ski industry until Vail came in and started acquiring resorts and now the last couple of years they've kind of gotten a bad rap because of some of the things with overcrowding and things like that. But in my opinion, and if you ask a lot of people, they totally turned the whole ski industry around. I mean, they've had growth.
Speaker 2:I would agree.
Speaker 1:They have improved the facilities, improved the amenities for people and kind of really rejuvenated the ski industry. That you know I found pretty interesting type of mindset that we are working on with our partners to do that in the summer industry, summer sports industry, so we probably won't add snow tubing necessarily anywhere else. That was more of a harbors for everything. But we are also looking at acquiring other outfitters.
Speaker 2:Well, it's so exciting. You guys are growing and I hope you continue to grow and wish you a successful summer with lots of people coming out to raft and tube and thank you and have lots of fun yeah, looking forward to it, yeah thank you for matt for coming in today sure it was a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 1:Definitely thanks for having me appreciate it.