The Alimond Show
Welcome to The Alimond Show --join us as we share our entrepreneurial guests' stories, uncover their secrets to success, and explore the unique paths they've taken to build thriving businesses in our community.
In each episode, our host, Aliyah Dastour, sits down with a diverse group of local business owners, from the corner cafe to the boutique shop, from tech startups to family-run enterprises. We peel back the curtain to reveal the trials, triumphs, and transformational moments that have shaped their entrepreneurial journey.
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The Alimond Show
Rachel Virk - Mastering Family Law: From Marine Science Aspirations to Divorce Mediation Expertise
Join us as we host Rachel Virk, a distinguished divorce litigator and mediator based in Sterling, Virginia, who has turned navigating the choppy waters of family law into an art form. With over 35 years of experience, Rachel’s journey from aspiring marine scientist to becoming the longest continuously certified mediator in Loudoun County is nothing short of extraordinary. Her commitment to protecting children and personal assets while guiding families through the storm of divorce is at the heart of her practice.
Rachel shares the complexities of maintaining professional and personal boundaries in emotionally charged cases and the importance of self-care to prevent burnout. She gives us an inside look at the challenges posed by profit-driven attorneys and the critical role of ethical practice in safeguarding families' well-being. In one gripping recount, she describes an especially contentious case that led another attorney to swear off family law altogether, underscoring the resilience required to stay in the field. Rachel’s insights are essential for anyone contemplating a career in law, offering a candid look at what it takes to balance empathy with professionalism.
Our conversation also delves into the cultural and societal factors that shape the dynamics of divorce. From evolving norms to the impact of staying together for the kids, Rachel provides a nuanced perspective on modern marriage dissolution. She also shares practical advice from her book, "The Four Ways of Divorce," detailing various methods of resolution and the importance of managing conflict with mutual respect. On a lighter note, Rachel talks about her passion for balancing a love for reading with thrilling outdoor activities, revealing how embracing both calm and excitement contributes to personal fulfillment. Whether you're intrigued by family law or seeking inspiration to follow your own winding path, this episode offers a wealth of wisdom and encouragement.
My name is Rachel Virk. My company is Rachel Virk PC. I'm a divorce litigator and mediator. My office is located in Sterling, just down the road from the Dulles Town Center Mall, off Route 7. And for people who can sit down with their ex-2B and work out and create their new two-home family for their children, I can help them sit down and do that through mediation or non-adversarial negotiation. Or if they need to stand up to protect their business, personal safety, future financial security, I will help them stand up and fight it out through traditional litigation. About 20% of my practice is mediation. The other 80% is traditional litigation and negotiation. I'm also the longest continuously certified mediator in Loudoun County. I got mediation certification in 2001. And I have been litigating now in Northern Virginia for 35 years. Wow, so you would call me a seasoned divorce attorney.
Speaker 2:That's right. No, we love people with experience and that's why I love having somebody like you here on the podcast who can offer insight and share with us all your experience and insight on these matters, because this is a big life change for somebody. It's not something easy and I'm sure everybody has different situations. Before we get into all that nitty gritty stuff, can you give us a background about yourself and like how you got into this industry and what led you to where you are today?
Speaker 1:Well, it was the universe. I grew up in New England and very much involved in the outdoors. I thought I would be a park ranger or something like that. I spent a lot of time in the outdoors. That's where I feel most at home. So I went to the University of Miami for a marine science and biology double major chem minor. I had grown up watching the undersea world or Jacques Cousteau and listening to John Denver.
Speaker 1:I finished that five-year program it's usually five years and about three and a half years. I was working on a doctorate in ornithology when I saw that that path wasn't going to work and I thought I would do environmental law and work for something like World Wildlife Fund, sierra Legal Defense, natural Resources Defense Council. I wasn't able to get one of those jobs. So, like I said, the universe said here you go, here's an opening in a law firm. They need a family law attorney. There were 10 of us in that Fairfax office, 10 in DC, 10 in Maryland. So I was there for about nine or 10 years. Then I worked at a firm in Sterling for about five years and then opened my own practice in 2005.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is awesome, so I was on the way to do environmental law, but the job that opened itself to me was in family law and I found that I really liked that. I enjoyed helping people, I enjoyed the work, I enjoyed, you know, really helping the children of people divorcing. So it's been really a good 35 plus years A good career there it sounds like.
Speaker 2:So your background is interesting to me because it's totally different than from what you wanted to originally do. And that's just how life works. Sometimes, right, you think you're going to go in a certain path, but then it's like surprise, this door opened up and you're like, hey, you know what? I think that's really inspiring. What advice would you like to give to anybody out there who is maybe trying to figure out what they want to do with their life and their career?
Speaker 1:You know, when I talk to people who are trying to figure that out, I tell them you have to think what is important, and especially for attorneys I've met. First of all, let me just say I never wanted to be an attorney. I never noticed the law. I'm not a big fan of litigation. By the way, some people feel that there's a certain prestige or they think there's a lot of money in being an attorney. So you know, I tell people who are heading towards a law career are you looking for what you perceive as prestige and you want to work in a big DC firm? Are you looking for money and you want to work in a big DC firm? Are you looking for money and you want to work in a big DC firm? Are you looking for public interest and you want to work for government or some sort of public interest on one side or another? Are you concerned about the commute?
Speaker 1:I did interview at EPA and I think back then the office was in Southeast and they brought me down to a basement and there was a metal desk and I knew I could have gotten that job. But I thought I'm going to have this enormous commute and I realized if I worked in an office with no window, at a metal desk, I would just be so depressed, even though it was for a cause I wanted. I realized I also would have a tough time paying my student loans. I had also worked in some big DC law firms doing what they called environmental law, but it was really representing polluters in toxic waste, superfund cases. So I realized the culture of the big law firms everybody trying to scramble to the top wasn't for me either.
Speaker 1:So I realized the thing that mattered for me was having control over my day. You're always responsible to your clients, but I could choose all the decisions in my cases and I realized that was the most important thing to me in my cases and I realized that was the most important thing to me. So the job I had for the first nine years was woefully underpaid, had a bit of a commute, but I had my own office with a window and a tree outside it and I controlled my own day and so I would advise people. You know what is it that's important to you? And I realized what was important to me was not feeling like you know, there's a junior associate working for a senior associate working for a junior partner working for the senior partner that toils all day hoping to go up the pyramid.
Speaker 2:That wasn't for me. No, and I love that you figure that out yourself. Like, let me follow the path that everybody's said. No, I don't like the path that everybody else is doing and this is the way that I want to do it. It's the way that I want to work around my days and I love that. That's a key point I think that you just said is knowing what you want.
Speaker 1:Well, as I mentioned, that job opened up to me because a friend said hey, there's an opening in my firm, Come and join it. They're looking for somebody. And I didn't think it was what I wanted. But then I realized okay, even though it's not paying, I'm controlling my day, I'm happy, I like the other people, I like the work. So, like I said, I feel and I do feel guided very much by, you know, spirit, but I do feel like the universe decided that this is the kind of work I should do. I do feel that I'm very good at it and it just I was just pointed in that- direction.
Speaker 2:and here we are. Right Now, I want to talk a little bit about marketing. I know that you had mentioned that you're not a big like Twitter person or Instagram person, and that's totally okay. That's why I asked this question, because not everybody does the same thing. So, since you have a successful career and business, can you talk to me about what it is that you do? Is it all word of mouth? How are you doing your marketing?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm smiling because it just makes me laugh. When I opened my firm in 2005, and my husband is my general manager, I was a business manager we got a big yellow page ad for $3,000. And there was something called the Red Book and each town had its own little I remember those Little phone book kind of thing and we spent money on that. And I was doing a seminar monthly that I advertised in a newspaper called the Easterner Loudon Easterner I don't even know if it's still around anymore, and I had a little ad with my photo in it and I did this once a month seminar and I had never taken a business or marketing class.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what an elevator speech was. I thought that networking was a dirty thing. I thought that you know, I'm a divorce attorney. I don't want to. I thought what it was was. I don't want to meet people hoping to profit off their misfortune and saying, oh, I'm meeting you, hi, I'm a friend, oh, call me if you're getting a divorce. I thought that's what networking was. I didn't understand that really.
Speaker 1:And again, the universe somebody kept inviting me to a breakfast. I had no idea what this breakfast was. Turned out, it was one of these marketing kind of groups like BNI or Chamber of Commerce, and I realized that if you network, you're meeting people, you're making friends with people so that if they know somebody that you can help, they're going to give their friends your name. I also started talking to groups of mental health practitioners, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers. I would speak at their seminars and then it became word of mouth and then it became search engine optimization. I think at least half of my clients come from. I'm looking for a divorce attorney in Sterling and you pop up and reviews, because nowadays really it's reviews.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I want to go back to that key point that you just said about mental health. Can you tell me how that plays a role in what you do and the people, please, Because I would like to know more about that? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Lil. When people come to me, they are scared. They're scared. They're afraid they're going to lose time with their children. They're afraid they're going to lose time with their children. They're afraid they won't receive enough support or they're going to have to pay too much support. They're afraid of losing all their hard-earned retirement money or home equity. They're afraid more often of the unknown.
Speaker 1:There are some people that will stay male and female in abusive relationships because it's a known to them and the unknown is scarier. So fear, I think, can be one of the most predominant emotions that people have when they first come to see me. So I want to reassure them. Look, we're going to make a plan, we're going to make a new life plan. But then again let me just back up and say not everybody hates each other just because going to make a plan, we're going to make a new life plan. But then again let me just back up and say not everybody hates each other just because they're getting a divorce.
Speaker 1:So probably a good 50% of my cases, whether they're mediation or negotiation, are completely non-adversarial. These are people who don't hate each other just because they're getting a divorce. They don't want to spend the rest of their lives together but they can co-parent, they can be friends. So you know, it's a matter like on my website I have a bar and if you click getting started, there's something that says issues to be resolved. Those are all the things that we have to talk about and some people talk about that with their ex-to-be before they come in and we write up an agreement and it gets signed pretty quickly and it's done very fast. 25% of the time, you know, people are pushing and horse trading or it's just very complicated and they spend a bit more money, and then maybe 25% of the time, we're going to head off to court and it becomes very expensive. There's a lot of litigation head off to court and it becomes very expensive. There's a lot of litigation and most of the time before a final hearing, people will settle their case. It's a very small percent that fully, fully, fully litigate and in my opinion I know that you know a lot of attorneys feel it's very important to have your day in court.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's more of a show, with very limited ability to present evidence and testimony, because the delays are so incredible. Last court dates I set in divorces were 14 months from the day we scheduled them and the custody hearings were like 12 months, and if you're in juvenile court in Fairfax you might only have three hours to do a whole custody case In Loudoun you might get a whole day, but that day is going to start late, it's going to be interrupted by lunch and maybe some restraining order cases that come on. So your one-day hearing might allow you one hour of testimony, right? So it's all about how do you present the most important facts in this incredibly limited period of time, and that's a very artificial way to resolve a dispute.
Speaker 1:I'm not a big fan of that. The cost of litigation is tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars. So you know, I think people are better served by working things out between themselves with good counsel. But sometimes you have to go to court and there you go and the system is what it is. Yeah, no absolutely.
Speaker 2:I don't know if this is maybe an odd question, because it's just got me thinking how close you actually get with your clients, thinking how close you actually get with your clients, but do you maybe retain um how do I say this communication with them?
Speaker 1:it's not just like when you're helping them, with that too, maybe you get like really deep and close with them, that that maybe they're reaching out to you personally outside of the office yeah, um no, because I've been in this business long enough to know that if I get too involved with all of the drama and pain that my clients are going through, I'm not serving them well and they're upset and I'm just talking to them about matters that I want to reassure them about and it's more of a counseling role. Yes, we are attorneys and counselors at law, but I'm not a mental health therapist. Now I will say that there are some people who maybe come from a certain cultural background and it's a very emotional thing to do. A divorce has a lot of repercussions with their families, especially if their family is quote back home. There are people, men and women who are being abused and there's a certain element of counseling involved in that. But I very clearly delineate what I'm assisting them with in the office. I don't want to bill people, to just talk with them to make them feel better, and I'm not a therapist.
Speaker 1:But to the extent that I'm helping them to make decisions and move on and understand, maybe it can be a very liberating thing to leave a spouse who's beating you all the time and it's not your cross to bear, and even though your mother might have felt that that's just what women have to deal with, because back home that's what they dealt with, and if you divorce your husband, your sisters back home will never get married, because now the family knows that a wife might leave her husband. But you have to decide do I want to stay in this unhappy marriage where I'm being abused, or am I going to stand up and maybe lose the support of my family, or maybe they'll understand? So there is a lot to consider and we do consider it and I do help them with that. But aside from every now and then somebody who tugs at my heartstrings they all do, but when they're children, yes, every now and then there's a case that you know I kind of take home with me.
Speaker 2:But it's very important for us to keep the professional lines clear yeah, no, that's why I wanted to ask and I'm glad that you said that, because it is important, I think, in any industry to have those boundaries and set aside especially maybe somebody who's listening and maybe they're looking into this as a career. You can offer that insight as letting them, them know, like, yes, like these cases are a lot of highs and there are a lot of lows and you can get very involved in the result.
Speaker 1:I've had a case or two that at the end I was just in tears. I can think of one or two cases over the last 35 years where in closing argument I was practically in tears. So sometimes something can affect you. But it is important to understand you have to take care of yourself. You don't want to get burned out.
Speaker 1:I know attorneys who I will tell you this I think the most disturbing part of litigation is interactions with attorneys who are more concerned with profit than the children or the family, who will try to engage in tactics that are just annoying to deal with. You know they think they're being aggressive or whatever, but you know it's just more annoyance that you have to deal with. And that I think is the most annoying part of litigation is other attorneys that feel that they need to be aggressive because that quote makes them a good attorney. It doesn't, and it does run up the fees. But you know, other than dealing with negative attorneys, you have to like what you're doing.
Speaker 1:I'll just say briefly I had a case many years ago and Prince William was very contested. Briefly, I had a case many years ago and Prince William was very contested and I remember the judge may he rest in peace got so angry at one point he said I'm going to get up, I have to go in my chambers and kick something. Ok, and when that case ended the other attorney said I am never going to do another family law case. And I know attorneys who have walked away from litigation and family law because it can be very contentious and difficult and they decide it's just too stressful. It is a very stressful profession, I guess, but those of us who can have the staying power, we enjoy doing it, doing it, we know how to you know weigh all the emotions and difficulty and personal issues and understand that we're actually doing a lot of good, but not everybody can do family law litigation.
Speaker 1:It is very, very difficult, wow, no, and that's not even to include. Here in Northern Virginia we have every kind of you know, we've got government employees, defense contractors, it people. They have a lot of complex retirement assets, investment properties, businesses and all that gets carved up in the divorce. So a good divorce attorney will understand how to deal with the very complex high asset issues that are involved in dividing up a marital estate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, okay. So you have basically a lot of insight and I feel like a lot of people could definitely benefit. Who's going through anything like this or are looking for guidance, which leads me to your book oh, yes, yes, I would love to talk about your book.
Speaker 1:So I wrote the book on divorce called the Four Ways of Divorce Litigation, negotiation, collaboration, mediation. Those are the four ways of going about it. One of the good things about the book is in the back there's like a list of topics to be resolved. These are all the things that people have to work out. You know, how are you going to file your taxes? Do you itemize? Do we need to talk about the mortgage interest deduction? Who's going to do the health insurance? What about the cars business, the loan, retirement, home equity and support and custody. So there's a lot there the book has. It's actually very readable. It's on Amazon, I think, $9 on Kindle or something like that. It's a very readable book, except chapter eight is very, very heavy. Those are all the things that we have to either work out or fight out.
Speaker 1:But there's a lot of good information on the book in the book and there's a lot of good information on my website bite sized bits, not overwhelming. I will say that on the website there's a nice two minute video of how to tell your children about divorce and there's a little script. I do have an about the children page and that page does talk about things like well, if your spouse assaults you and you call the police and have them charged with family assault and get a restraining order and maybe that person goes to jail, let's say it's the guy, but it could also be the gal. And if the guy is going to tell the kids, oh look, mommy, put me in jail, or the lady says I don't want to put him in jail, you know, you need to look at that like no, no, there's a right and there's a wrong and society has certain restrictions and requirements and laws and rules and if you break them there's consequences. And if daddy did something he shouldn't have done, that was his choice and there's a consequence to that. You know, it's not mommy, put daddy in jail. Daddy put himself in jail, okay.
Speaker 1:But then there are some ladies who are saying, oh, but then he'll lose his job and we won't get support. Well, now you have to make some decisions. Or? Well, you know, um, he's doing all these things to alienate the children who are 15, 16, but, you know, alienate them from me, and he's trying to buy them with affection and money and promises and college and cars. And now you got to make some decisions. Are you putting up with abuse or manipulation for money, or are you kind of turning it around and using them? Or are you going to say you know what Chips fall where they may? I'm not going to let myself be taken advantage of this way and I'm not going to do it for money. So there are a lot of decisions.
Speaker 1:You know divorce or any conflict will bring out the best in a person or the worst in a person, and it is a process and for those who want to look at it as a process of self-discovery and growth, a lot of things come into sharp focus about what your values are.
Speaker 1:Are you trying to weaponize the children against your spouse and turn them against your spouse because you're codependent on them?
Speaker 1:Or you're trying to punish your spouse because you have borderline personality disorder, or you're narcissistic, in which case you're never going to change and your spouse needs to understand how to set limits and deal with that. So there are a lot of priorities that come into focus when you go through any conflict, and divorce is one of the big sources of conflict. Yeah, and for some people who are going to have a difficult divorce but they don't want conflict, they need some people who are going to have a difficult divorce, but they don't want conflict. They need to understand you're going to have conflict. Your life isn't just going to continue the way it's been all this time. So it's about how to manage that conflict, how to take care of yourself, how to understand it might be a two-year process, how to take one step at a time and how to reach out and get the resources and help and support that you need. I will provide the legal aspect of that, but you may need other support besides the legal support.
Speaker 2:Wow, Sorry, that's just a lot of stuff to take in, and growing up, I had a mom who also was like what about? I'm scared. I don't want to make this about me or anything, but it's just everything that you're saying. Maybe there's listeners out there who hear this stuff and they weren't aware of it or anything like that. I'm just so grateful that you were on this podcast today and offering all this insight that a lot of people didn't even know about or think about. Like, you have to think about the kids, you have to think about yourself, the other person, but you have to think about it in a way where why are you doing that and why are you staying or why are you choosing not to? So I think you being here today is just a very powerful I don't even know how to put it into words.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, here, in this area too, we're a very cosmopolitan area. I'll do same sex cases both guys and gals agreements and mediations and divorces. A very large percent of my cases are people whose parents or themselves came from another country and there can be all sorts of cultural aspects to the case. There are a lot of complexities in this area because people are so different here from, you know, whatever mainstream old America used to be, we're just a very cosmopolitan area and my clients come from all over the world, whether themselves or their parents, and that does influence how people view the process and their role in raising children or being independent.
Speaker 1:Divorce can be very liberating, you know, for some people it's a happy, liberating thing. For other people they feel like it's the end of the world. But I will say okay. I'm going to back up to make two points. Yes, please, I never had a divorce where people had been married at least 20 years prior to about 1995.
Speaker 1:And if you think about that, if that was 95 and they'd been married 20 years, they were married in 75 and their parents were born in, I don't know. Do the math. So there was a time people, if they stayed together 20 years, they were just going to keep staying together. Something happened around 95 where all of a sudden they had 12 divorces of people who'd been married over 20 years and it just kept going up. And I would say now that most of half of at least my cases involve people who've been married more than 20 years and it just kept going up. And I would say now that most of half of at least my cases involve people who've been married more than 20 years. It's a very common thing Now with some of those people, it's very jarring for them. Other people it is very liberating. But again, these are people with assets and children who are older, and there is a lot of complexity in that. So divorce has changed over the years, the laws have changed over the years, but the issues of the heart, they've stayed the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah no, wow, that is something to think about, because back then I feel like it was more of the standard to think like, oh well, you're married to this person, you just got to stick it out and stay with them. Like, do not get divorced, like that is just terrible. Think of the kids. But oftentimes I feel like, oh my God.
Speaker 1:So OK, you just triggered me. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:So, two things. Oh, it's the principle. Oh my God, no, no, think about what the principles are that matter. Ok, or we're staying together for the kids. I will tell people. You're teaching your kids how to be in a bad marriage. You're teaching your son it's OK to abuse or be abused. You're teaching your son that this is acceptable If you're, if you have a daughter and you're being abused and you're the lady, you're teaching your daughter that this is acceptable. So this idea of staying together for the kids, I usually have a problem with. Although I have had some clients who, quote decided to stay together for the kids because it was easier but they didn't have conflict, okay, and in some of those cases it did benefit them to share time and whatnot, um, but if there's a high conflict situation, you're not doing your kids any favors not at all. So it's case by case Definitely.
Speaker 1:Oh, every case is a unique and individual, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, yeah, no, I could literally talk to you all day. I really could, um, but if there's anything maybe that I have not touched on that you would definitely like to share with the audience, or just want to make sure I make the best use of your time while you're here there's just so much um.
Speaker 1:Like I said, some people can sit down with their ex-to-be and create their new two-home family, because not everybody hates each other just because they're getting a divorce, and there can be a lot of tenderness and love and affection between two divorcing people. That's just not unusual anymore and I do have the privilege and honor of seeing people like that because I mediate. There are some divorce attorneys who will say don't do anything until it's in writing. You know all this and I do have the privilege and honor of seeing people like that because I mediate. There are some divorce attorneys who will say don't do anything until it's in writing. You know all this and I know that some people have financial trust and they can buy and sell properties and divide their assets and do all this before it's ever in writing. But then again there are some people who need to stand up to protect themselves or protect their children, and then you need somebody who's going to be aggressive in a professional way, who knows what they're doing, who can handle the complexities, who understands how the courts work. That's a whole art right there.
Speaker 1:And if, like myself, the attorney litigates throughout Northern Virginia, each court has its own procedures and rules and whatnot. You know I litigate half the time in Fairfax, half in Loudoun County. I used to litigate in Prince William County but I would tell anybody who comes to me who has a Prince William case, you're going to be better off with an attorney in Manassas or Prince William who knows the courts, who knows the judges and whom the judges know. So there's just so much complexity to it. There's the emotion, there's a substantive knowledge and then for someone like me who has a business, you know you got to know how to run your business and that's also a big part of being successful. And I've been blessed to have great colleagues who've been with me from the beginning, a couple of legal assistants who stayed with me for nine years or 11 years. It's very important that you have a good team and I'm blessed to have that.
Speaker 2:That's so great. I love that. How many people do you have on your team by the way.
Speaker 1:So I am the attorney and there are four people who support me the general manager, his assistant, the bookkeeper and my paralegal. So it's myself and my paralegal who have all the contact with the clients day to day, and then all the other three who keep the business. So I have I keep the business running, so I have the luxury of being able to just do my work and network, which means going out and meeting people and and, uh, you know, letting them know that I can help their friends if they're heading for a divorce.
Speaker 2:That is awesome. I love that. You like worked your way up and you're in a place where you're like you know what. I have my team, that I rely on support, and we have each other's back. I love that. And now, before I get to my end here, I do want to know what you like to do to unwind, Like do you like to take a bath, play some music? You know.
Speaker 1:I never wanted to be an attorney. I don't get my identity about over being an attorney. You'll see me at Costco on Saturday. That's why I always run into people and you would never think I'm a lawyer. I feel most happy in the woods, on water. I spent my teen years hiking for weeks at a time on the Appalachian, canoeing rivers, climbing mountains, getting certified for scuba, doing martial arts. 13 years of riding horses. My husband and I were both on horses. When we met, when my son was a scout, I became an assistant scout master. I'm like, yeah, we're going to do whitewater, we're going to go skiing together. We're going to do sailing. I got to do a week sail trip in college with the sailing club. I've been able to ride mules through the Rockies in Montana and canoe the upper, not canoe raft down the upper and lower Colorado through the Grand Canyon. So those sorts of things skydiving lots of times, ballooning, hang gliding these are the things that make me feel alive.
Speaker 1:And it was wonderful to do those with my son. We triple crowned with the venture crew. We summited the 14,000-foot Mount Baldy. So those are the things where I feel happiest is being outdoors. But other than that, I am happy to sit in the recliner and read a book. I love to read. I read voraciously. I just finally got a Kindle because I was buying too many books. Yeah, not great with the library. So I love to read, but I also love to, you know, ski and do things that get my adrenaline going, because you know that that second before you jump off that little bar into the sky, oh man, that feeling is just. Or when you're going through a rapid, or you're looking out from the top of a mountain, or standing with your son, and you know you're looking out from the top of a mountain, or standing with your son and you know you're going to ski down that mountain together and you're in a snow globe of beautiful snow. Those are the moments that I feel most alive. Doing all that.
Speaker 2:The skydiving you got me there that is crazy. No, I'm glad that you have this outlet for yourself and your everything. The universe really did align everything so perfectly, I feel for you Like nothing's perfect, but I like the way that you like you have your job, but you also have this thrill that you use to like get everything out and just be yourself, and relax, just feel alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you so much. This was a fun discussion and I really enjoyed it.