27 ~ Desire and Honesty: The True Dance of Self-Expression and Connection

Have you ever felt the thrill of uncensored honesty ripple through a conversation, transforming it entirely? That's at the core of our latest discussion, where we, Brenda and Catherine, share the pulsing energy of our desires and the raw courage it takes to express them. As we peel back the layers of our personal experiences, we invite you on a journey to explore the intricate dance between wanting and revealing our true selves - a dance that can lead to the most fulfilling of life's connections.

Navigating the ebb and flow of relationships, we consider the weight of authenticity and the liberation that follows when we align our inner truths with our outward actions. Delicate stories of our pasts, including Brenda's time as a sixth-grade teacher, serve as a testament to the transformative nature of embracing honest communication. It's about the joy found in co-creating relationships that resonate with the clear articulation of our needs and desires, and the undeniable power of saying our true 'yes' and 'no'.

As we wrap up this heart-to-heart, we relish in the empowerment that comes from standing in our vulnerability, recognizing and accepting the uncomfortable truths within us. We look forward to diving deeper into these conversations at our Desire Discovery Hour, and we're thrilled to extend the invitation to you. Together, we'll celebrate the freedom that honesty brings to love and intimacy, and we'll continue to build a community where desires are not just unspoken dreams but the catalysts for profound connection and growth. Join us, (on March 14th 7pm EST), the link is below and let's embrace the truth and beauty that lies in every desire revealed.

https://events.humanitix.com/desire-discovery-hour

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Desire as Medicine. We are two very different women living a life led by Desire inviting you into our world.

Speaker 2: 0:16

I'm Brenda. I'm a devoted practitioner to being my fully expressed true self in my daily life. Motherhood, relationships and my business Desire has taken me on quite a ride and every day I practice listening to and following the voice within.

Speaker 1: 0:32

I'm a middle school teacher turned coach and guide of the feminine, and I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the truest and hopefully the highest version of me. I don't have children. I've never been married. I've spent equal parts of my life in corporate as in some down and low shady spaces. I was the epitome of tired and wired and my path led me to explore Desire. I'm a coach, guide, energy worker and a forever student, Even after decades of inner work.

Speaker 2: 1:00

We are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring, always curious. We believe that listening to and following the nudge of Desire is a deep spiritual practice that helps us grow.

Speaker 1: 1:12

On the Desire as Medicine podcast. We talk to each other, we interview people we know and love about the practice of Desire, bringing in a very important piece that is often overlooked being responsible for our desire. Welcome, friends and listeners. Today, brenda and I are kind of jammin'. The first thing that feels really appropriate to touch on is like what is this podcast about? What is the truth of this question of Desire?

Speaker 2: 1:50

It's a good question. It's a really good question.

Speaker 1: 1:56

The first thought that came to me when you asked me that, brenda, was we live in a time where, as women, we have more freedom than we've ever had. And I want to say just a disclaimer according to history books, for all I know there was a time when it was complete Narnia and women had, were able to live their lives with themselves, at the center, with a village supporting them, just living their best lives. But right now, when I look behind me, I think about the time where, when women were just like property, a time where a woman needed a man's signature before she could open a bank account or have any property or even have a credit card, a time when women weren't even able to go to school. Currently, we are able to go to school, we are able to have our own credit cards, we are able to buy property, have our own bank accounts I don't know if I've said that already yet and yet one of our struggles continues to be and I see it in myself. I've seen it, definitely over time.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I wouldn't say that it's such a screaming pain point at this point in my life, but I see it in my clients as well. You and I have discussed it, so other women have to see this, where women constantly put themselves last, where we have so much on our plate that we can barely remember what it is that we want because there's so many other things that are in front of it. When I think about the desires medicine podcasts, I think of a time when women have a time where we can just sit with. What do we want and what is desire? What is that whisper, what does it feel like and why is it important? And for me, being in service to this means that hopefully our listeners and myself can remember that our life well lived is usually when we're living it for us, for us first, what comes up for you?

Speaker 2: 4:28

I love this. I love us really looking at what are we doing here on this podcast and what comes up for us around desire, and it is such a privilege to be able to consider what it is that I want. And it could be really tricky because sometimes I don't know what I want. Sometimes I know what I want and it feels really scary, it feels really huge, like I'm going, if I go for that desire, I'm going to lose something or hurt someone that.

Speaker 2: 5:11

I care about and I think it's really important to acknowledge these things to ourselves and it's really okay Like I had a desire come up recently and I could feel all the ways that my conditioning is holding me back from this desire like obligation and conditioning, and also true desire like conflicting desires.

Speaker 2: 5:39

Sometimes we have conflicting desires, like I really want this thing, but I really want that thing, and it can be a confusing spot and I think these things can be really complicated. It's way easier to take the easy route and not even pursue the desire or be honest with yourself about what's coming up, to sit with the discomfort of I want something and I'm not sure I can give it to myself, or I'm not sure that I will give it to myself. Or there's expectations that are on me or in my family that actually feel big and I don't know if I'm willing to power through them or if I can. These are just questions that come up and I think that inevitably, it's really all okay because we're learning about ourselves along the way, but I think it's really important to be honest with ourselves and honest with where we are, because nothing will ever change if we're not really honest about where we are. So that's what I'm thinking about right now.

Speaker 1: 7:09

A few things set out to me Just like rapid fire. You talked about privilege and I think there is huge privilege in being able to even be with what you want. I think it's privilege that for at least a few hundred years before us, women didn't really have. I second what you said, that knowing what we want is just part of it. Acknowledging that we potentially could lose something because of what we want or hurt someone along the way that we care about is true statement. Also, yes, I agree, sometimes we do have conflicting desires. It's like I want up and I want down, I want left and I want right, you just want it all. I think that sort of even bleeds into the next thing you said when you spoke about that it's easier to not go for what we want because there's so much discomfort in wanting something. I think there's discomfort also comes in, like having to make that choice. Even the choice of deciding I'm giving it to myself, I'm not giving it to myself I think is a big one.

Speaker 1: 8:26

But the biggest thing you mentioned thus far is honesty. I think honesty is probably the hardest one, and what I mean with honesty and desire is it's like if we decide we want to live a true life or an honest life. Yes, there will be times when we lose something. There will be times when people are hurt by what we're doing and there's so much connection and honesty. I feel as though honesty also helps close tons of loops. It's so unkind to be people pleasing in this area, so unkind to sort of use fluffy language or say things air quotes in the nicest way, because sometimes being nice is just not kind and it doesn't allow for closure or, at times, right, it doesn't allow for just the truth.

Speaker 1: 9:50

In practicing living a life of truth, of honesty with ourselves and others. Yes, there's no guarantee that we won't hurt other people. There's also this sense of like a full stop. We say what we mean and we mean what we say and the honesty is sort of all cards on the table. This is what I want, this is what I don't want, this is why and just trust that, how we impact people like they've got themselves and it will all be figured out.

Speaker 2: 10:38

It will. It will all be figured out. Can you say more what you've been about with honesty, that there's freedom in closing the loops?

Speaker 1: 10:49

So I can't even remember the name of the law now the law of the loops. But our brain kind of fritzes out when there's open loops. So let's say Mariah Carey and I have a falling out. I'm just going to be using superstars from now on. Let's say Mariah Carey and I have a falling out and I say to myself, okay, I'm really upset by this, but for X, y or Z reason I don't want to tell her about it and so I don't. And now she and I potentially are hanging out, etc. I have a little bit of resentment inside of me. Potentially. I'm always thinking to myself hmm, I really should tell her about that time. There's a part of me that wants to tell her so I can be in truth and connection, and there's going to be a part of me that wants to withhold it because I'm afraid of what could potentially happen by telling this person the truth. That will impact the friendship in a particular way. But the truth is that just having the loop open is such an energy leak and energy drain. We talked about energy accounting last week, right, and it's a real thing. It really drains our battery. Now let's say Mariah, in her own way over there, can feel that I'm with, I'm doing a withhold, like I'm withholding love or friendship in some way, and she can feel that and instead of saying, hey, catherine, you know, did something happen? Is there something for us to clean up, something for us to talk about, is there anything for us to repair? She just stays quiet because she also doesn't want to impact the friendship in some way. That's uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 12:56

So then there's an open loop, potentially for that person as well for her in this case, in my fantasy world and they don't have to exist, like the open loops are energy drains and they don't have to exist. It's almost like if I was living. It's a way of living, I think, beyond our means. We wouldn't really do this with cash. I wouldn't be paying someone if they're no longer working for me. That would be weird. I wouldn't be paying rent at a location that I no longer live. But we do this with our energy often and I think it's because it's so inconvenient to be honest and to really tell others what we want. The air quotes fear of what is potentially going to happen from it, because we're not really taking into account the hidden cost. Did answer that? Answer the question.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Yeah, it really did. That was a beautiful example. Yeah, I think that I don't know. I'm curious with our listeners and for yourself, I really wasn't brought up knowing that I could be fully honest. It wasn't something that I was really taught. I mean, I'm in one hand, I'm one way I was taught be honest, be honest. But I think a lot of the embodied examples that I saw were not actually fully honest. I didn't see everyone in my family being really honest, even though they were teaching me to be honest, and I don't have any fault or blame, because I think that this is just how it goes. I think we have ideas on how we want to be and then there's the reality of how we actually are and our kids pick up on that stuff, and I certainly did so.

Speaker 2: 15:00

When I think about my own lineage of being honest and also following desire, I see a lot of hidden desires, things that the things that women before me wanted and probably didn't know how to have, and then I'm going to say they took them like they, they, they got what they needed. Women before me got what they needed, but not necessarily in a fully transparent way, and I absolutely went down that path as well, you know, because I think that we have a really strong survival instinct and I know I hit a point in my life in my late 30s, around 40, where I had a lot of problems, where I wanted so much more in my life and I really had no idea how to get it. I certainly did not have any skills in how to be really honest about what was happening for me and what I wanted and I could really see the the ancestral pattern of wanting something and then getting it kind of underground a little bit. You know, getting it underground, getting my needs met in a way that's secretive, not honest, and yeah, I'm glad I see that and it causes hurt, you know it causes hurt along the way and I've learned to go much slower and I think the journey of that and where I've landed has taken me to a place of really valuing honesty, really valuing honesty.

Speaker 2: 17:01

It's so funny because I was a teacher, I taught sixth grade for 22 years and I used to always work with my students on we used to call them Martin Luther King.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Six building blocks of character was like this great way to start out the year and one of them and I would always talk about, we would talk about like the qualities inside of us that we felt that we had, and I would always use honesty and as an example for myself how I was so honest. I really believed it, but then when I look back at my life, I was like, wow, there was really so much of my life that wasn't honest. I was as honest as I could be, but I wasn't fully honest, and so that's one of the big lessons I've learned on this journey is that I want my outsides to match my insides. I want to be honest with the people that I love and I want to be honest with myself. And that is quite a mouthful Like to want to do that and then actually putting it into practice is tricky. So I've learned to go really slow with it because I am committed to those things matching.

Speaker 1: 18:16

What do you find is tricky about it?

Speaker 2: 18:19

Because sometimes I don't want to reveal what's happening inside of me, or it's inconvenient, or I don't want to hurt the other person, or I just feel my own. I get myself behind a wall. I get myself behind a wall Like I don't want to talk about this. You know, just those old patterns of mine can still come out. I feel them. I just know how to work with them now. So there are times where I have to get myself out from behind a wall less and less these days, honestly. But that's what I mean by being tricky, like I still get that anticipation if I have to say uncomfortable truths to someone or in my relationship, saying something that's uncomfortable, that could potentially hurt the other person. I still have that discomfort in my body, you know, like that rush of like oh, I have to say this uncomfortable thing. I don't know how it's going to land over there.

Speaker 1: 19:23

Does that answer your question? Absolutely, I would have to agree. I think it is. There are places where it's hard to be honest For sure, when we're worried about impact. Right Like we have to trust that the chips are all going to fall in the right place and order and that reminding ourselves that the highest level of connection is an honesty Otherwise. Well, I think what you're pointing to earlier in this conversation is the generation of women before us that said things like you don't tell him exactly what you want, you make him think it's his idea. Men want to feel. Right, you want to just plant the seed. The next thing you know he's doing exactly what you wanted him to do. It just doesn't feel good. It feels so manipulative, like you can't just come straight out, and it's made some women so passive, aggressive. Right Like we want the thing and we're trying to move the boulders in just the right direction so that everything will be laid out in the way that we want, versus just asking for it. So interesting.

Speaker 2: 20:54

The irony is that men actually want to hear our desires. So it's funny that it's just funny what you're saying, because I really do believe that they want to hear our desires and want to make them happen.

Speaker 1: 21:08

Maybe we just are not on the same page now. Like, potentially there was a time when men didn't want to hear it, potentially when women were closer to second class citizens, or his thought was the best thought, I think. I don't know. I don't know. I can't put myself entirely in that position. Just to imagine myself having to be the person in relationship that always has all the answers To all the things must be exhausting, and Also having to then tell my partner how things are gonna go Versus how we live now, where the potential for connection and just letting your partner know what you would like and then your partner lets you know what they would like, you sort of can be in this dance of desire together. Getting to a place where you get to flesh it out and potentially create a reality when everybody has a version of what they want is so much more. What's the word I'm looking for? Generative. I.

Speaker 2: 22:22

Love that. My as you're thinking of your word. My word was spacious, like it feels so much more spacious to just Co-create it and to share what you really want. I know when I share what I really want, it does feel generative. It feels like I gain energy in my body by sharing what I want. I Agree.

Speaker 1: 22:47

I think that when I share what I want it, there is also more spaciousness and in my nervous system, like in my physical system, I feel like Right, you can just take a breath of fresh air.

Speaker 1: 22:56

You shared something, what that was potentially heavy on your chest or just in your mind, and you're going, oh, this is so uncomfortable to share, but I just have to get it out. And then you get it out and it feels like okay, great, fantastic, I'm on the other side of this discomfort, I got it out. When I think of generative, I think of if I were the person that had to constantly be the decider, the person that leads like the leader all the time. I think of knowing my partner's desires as well and co-creating. It would feel so much more generative Ahead of time. I know how to win ahead of time. I know what they want like there are just so many perks and being in communication and connection around it, so that I don't have to constantly be the person deciding everything and the co-creative, co-creative energy is so much more generative. But also sharing the desire. Getting it off, my chest Does feel so spacious.

Speaker 2: 23:55

It really does. You know, I feel that way. I Feel that way even though I'm not the masculine. I feel that way when I'm around people, even if it's friends or my children. I love hearing what other people want. I love that. It feels great, because then I get it to them.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Yes, it feels great.

Speaker 2: 24:14

It just feels really good to know what people want and to have clarity on that and then you can decide. You know, can you meet that or not in an honest way, and it's really fun to give people their desires.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Meeting someone in their desires is the most, most fun. It's so fun. It's so fun.

Speaker 2: 24:39

I'm thinking about that day that we drove around for your birthday and we and I met your desire by driving you around for your birthday. That was so much fun. And we went to the sneakers store. I was thinking about that today because I need sneakers and I was thinking about how you knew exactly what you wanted. You knew the exact sneaker store you wanted to go to and you walked in and you bought two pairs of black sneakers and we were in and out in 15 minutes. That was absolutely amazing. It was so great. First of all, I learned you could buy two pairs of black sneakers at the same time. I was like, wow, that is so great. But it was just so much fun to Fulfill that desire of that day Because you were so clear with what you wanted and I think that it makes life really fun and I think it makes relationships really rich because, going back to what we're saying before, you know you're showing up honestly when you're saying what you really want and that feels really good in a relationship.

Speaker 1: 25:41

To be honest, it really does it's. I think there's something we haven't touched on here yet today on desire and just being honest about it. Where we are in this time in our lives or in history, even where we get to Really exercise this privilege of having so many things more than other women before us, the honesty just builds so much more trust and intimacy, like, oh, I am the kind of person that says what I want. I'm the kind of person that gets to back my word, and when I tell this person this, after the track record that I've built, they believe me and they get to win. It's so great.

Speaker 2: 26:40

It's so great, it's so great to be with someone who is honest and you know they're being honest and they tell you what you want and you can trust that. You know. One of the big things I work on with my clients is a very simple practice of Practicing your yes and no, your true, honest yes and no. You could do that anywhere, wherever you go in your day, at the coffee shop, you know, on the train, wherever you are. And it's such a revealing practice to really truly tap into what are you a true yes to, what are you a true note to? You know to build this muscle and it is.

Speaker 2: 27:23

I always feel like you really can't trust someone's fully yes until they, you can trust their no. You know, until somebody's really willing to say no to something Can you really trust their yes. And I think it's a really great practice to do with yourself. I know I've done it with myself Just to build the skill of being really honest and showing up honest, honestly in relationships, because I think we all say that. We all say we want to show up honestly, but the practice of it is something really very different.

Speaker 1: 27:55

Oh my goodness, the amount of people that tell me they want to be honest and they're not honest. It's so common. It's a real sticking point, I think, for all the reasons. I think you mentioned this earlier I I also saw Witness growing up, people saying one thing and Me thinking did they really want to do that? This is really them telling the truth, even though they were saying the truth. You know, saying that they were saying the truth.

Speaker 1: 28:30

I also lived in in a house and in a time where most of us were raised with the phrase what happens in this house stays in this house, and so there was also this level of secrecy, I want to say, like ingrained in culture at the time, where the things that happened within the family unit had to stay within the family unit.

Speaker 1: 28:50

Right, there are other parts. So when we think of this and we add it to our Values and what we think is important, than yes, we become adults who don't Say the full truth. Because we saw other people fluff or Put on a thick layer of nice on top of their words so that they could lessen the impact on the blow. But we could be in a room full of nice people or we can be in a room full of nice people, or we can be in a room with tons of connection. I'm not saying we have to be mean either, but I am saying that sometimes there is a way where we can add a layer of nice that takes away from the context of what we're saying and it changes our statement.

Speaker 2: 29:40

It really does. I always say the kindest thing you can do is just be honest with somebody, and that might not feel true at the time when you're just starting out. I know when I first started being really honest with what was inside of being getting it out, it came out really messy. You know, like I said earlier, I thought I was being really honest and in many ways I really was. I was an honest person, I was as honest as I knew how to be and then when I saw something that was more possible for myself, when I saw a level of honesty that was possible, that I had never really knew was possible before, felt impossible, I started leaning into that and it. That was tricky for me, that was very uncomfortable and it came out really messy. You know, it's taken me a long time to learn how to be honest and kind at the same time and have it not come out like in a dumping spilling kind of way, but to be clean, to have it, to deliver honesty in a clean way where somebody can actually receive it.

Speaker 1: 30:57

That's so good that you bring that up. That's true. Sometimes when we're being nice, we sort of water what we're saying. We water it up and we unintentionally muddy it up so to the point that the person is receiving is going so what are they really saying? Right, we want to be able to let somebody know what we want, or just know our honest words without confusion. I remember a while back learning the sandwich method, where you tell someone what's going well and Then you tell them the true thing that probably stings, and then you tell them another nice thing and it was called the sandwich. And now I think of that and I Feel that what's actually more effective is to just Say the thing that might burn, or Say the truest desire that may not be comfortable. There may be some discomfort and then the sentences after that may be just clarification. Maybe the person has questions, right, and there's so much more space for that versus when we are setting up the conversation To be really perfect and nice.

Speaker 2: 32:19

Yeah, that's really good. You know, what came up for me inside of that is that the sandwich that you're talking about and I know exactly what you're talking about is kind of a bridge Like. I think it's a great. I don't want to dump on the sandwich completely, because I think it's a great bridge practice. You know, for people who don't know how to be honest at all, it is a great tool and formula to use, and I don't think that you want to stay there forever, but I did use that for a while because I needed some kind of tool or formula to help me get it out, and there were other tools that I used also, but I think that that can be a valuable tool. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1: 33:06

I do think it's a tool on the, on the on the path. I also, for myself and my experience when receiving it as being the receiver of the sandwich, I know how it has felt for me like, oh, something feels off about this In my mind. I'm almost stuck with what's the true, what's the true part of the statement and what is it that they wanted me to know, because I can get lost in it. But it might just be conversation style, but I did use it for a long time. It was also a bridge for me for sure. Lesson honesty more in request. So when I wanted something, I used that a lot.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Oh, yeah, I totally use that with desire, asking for what I want and being honest, and yeah, it is a great tool and I'm glad that I don't use that anymore and that I've learned to be honest in a way that I can be with honesty and also kind of gauge someone's energy and gauge someone's ability how do I want to say it? A gauge where somebody is and be attuned to how to deliver. It is really has been a useful skill as well, like not just walking around dumping out truths, you know, but really, yes, really setting up a conversation is what I'm saying. Setting up a conversation and creating a space for truth, not just walking around dumping. I've done that. I did that on my path to learning. To be honest, it's very messy and hurtful.

Speaker 1: 35:07

My path was, I had to learn how to put a lot more love into it. I was very dry and, very matter of fact, it took some time for me to learn how to be more loving in my requests or in my honesty giving. I didn't necessarily dump that much, but I do love what you're talking about. When we talk about capacity and gauging where someone is, can this person really meet me in this conversation? Can I meet this person where they are? Will I be able to fully tell them what I want? Will they be able to hear me? And if they don't hear me, am I okay with that, like all the different pieces and parts that come up for us in that location?

Speaker 1: 36:01

But the first few steps I don't know if you feel this way too, brenda is to just know where we are. Are we able to make requests? Are we able to tell the truth? Do we know exactly what we want? These are questions that we can really be with when we think about desire, especially as women, where we are in this moment in history and in time, really seeing the privileged place that we're at and using it, because it's here Women before us paved the way for us to be able to be here and feel into what turns me on, what makes me happy, what would I like, what would bring me joy? What do I want more of? What do I want less of All of those pieces and parts becoming more attuned to it only happens in practice, in being messy, in potentially not being so loving for myself or for you, potentially using the sandwich methods, whatever works, so that we can get better at living an honest life.

Speaker 2: 37:00

Yeah, that's really beautiful. I love that. You said you needed to learn to add love to yours. I needed to take away some of the niceness and I definitely dumped because I held it in for so long. I was so blocked and backed up in withholds in what I wanted to say the truth that it was just so stuffed up inside of me that it just came pouring out in all these messy ways. I didn't know how to deliver it cleanly. So I was really nice about it. I love what you're talking about with the women before us, because we really are at a beautiful time in history where I just look at my own family and the women before me and how they've lived and all the choices that they made. That really allowed me to be here where I am today talking about this with you, Catherine. We have an entire podcast about this, which is really so beautiful that we just get to sit and talk about this, that this is an important enough topic where we really give a lot of our time and energy to this podcast and to just talking about this topic. I feel very privileged and grateful that I get to flush this out with you all.

Speaker 2: 38:26

The time and desire is something that I think about all the time. I'm always thinking about what do I desire? How can I back myself here? How can I have it? How can I be with change? How can I be with what comes up inside of change, which we also did a whole episode about change. I love how this episode has shaped up to be about honesty. It's really quite beautiful, because in order to have our desires, we absolutely need to be honest with ourselves. What is it that we really want? Can we have our desires in connection, instead of taking it like I learned and being secretive about it? How can I have my desires in connection, even the uncomfortable desires? That's where it really does grow me into the woman that I want to be, in being more honest and more of myself.

Speaker 1: 39:39

I love that. Yes, I agree with everything you said. I think we want to be honest about what we want. We want for ourselves to be able to even come close to having it and also so others can potentially meet us in it or just know If they're in our lives. They're going to know either by action, because of how we behave or how we speak. Either way, it's really hard to deny our desires if we want to also go for them. We can't do both. We can deny our desires and not get them, but we can't necessarily deny our desires and go after it.

Speaker 1: 40:21

I'm going to see if I can describe this last piece that I want to share when I talk about adding more love in my honesty.

Speaker 1: 40:31

At first it was I want to say this and I want there to be nothing extra. I think the stance was this is just where I am, or this is what I want, or this is what I think and this is just me, as I started to feel. Look into the conversations where it's actually more fluid and I'm speaking to another human being, where potentially what I want is going to impact them and whatever they want will impact me. We are in connection and letting them know my honest truth whatever that is is an act of love, and feeling into and being with whatever their impact is is also an act of love. When I do it the whole time, while seeing in connection with the person was quite the gauntlet for me. I wouldn't say that I am masterful here. I think I'm still learning how to add love, and I would predict that it's probably going to be a little while longer before I can be all kinds of woman fuzzy here.

Speaker 2: 41:47

I want to see warm and fuzzy. Catherine, I love it. You are so loving, you're actually such a loving woman, and I'm so grateful to receive your truths. It feels really great and I love what you're saying about letting people feel the truth is an act of love. It's so true. It's such a true, beautiful statement, instead of withholding, and they can feel it anyway. Like you were saying earlier, they can feel it anyway. So why don't we just be honest and then we can really create something here. We can really enjoy our life and have a life and grow and learn if we're being honest.

Speaker 1: 42:34

Absolutely. We get to be in connection, talk about what we want, make our requests, share our thoughts in honesty, and it is the most loving thing to do. It is how we show someone that we really love and appreciate them. We value them so much that we're willing to tell them the truth, no matter what, and include them in our life in that way. It's a beautiful thing to do. I would say Totally.

Speaker 2: 43:08

To do and be, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 43:11

No, I said a beautiful thing to do and a beautiful way to be like of being.

Speaker 2: 43:16

It's an absolutely beautiful way of being and for me, it's how I honor myself is by being honest. Being honest with myself and being honest with others it's my practice, because I don't think I started out that way at all, and it's a very devotional practice for me. In order to be in relationship is to be honest. It's a loving act to the people I'm with and to myself.

Speaker 1: 43:45

I agree, I don't think I've ever thought of it that way, that it's an honorable way to be to me, but it definitely allows for a lot less chaos, like, if you are honest, it's just out on the table from the beginning, or as soon as you know, they know, and then as soon as you know what you want, they know what you want. As soon as you know the thought, they know the thought. As soon as. If it's that sort of a volley, it's just a lot more. It's a lot. It's a peaceful way to live.

Speaker 2: 44:18

I want to say yeah, but also is it always Because the truth can be really chaotic too. Just because you're saying the truth doesn't mean that it's going to be peaceful.

Speaker 1: 44:30

It can be super chaotic, I'm just comparing it to when we don't tell the truth Totally and then it blows up, because then the truth is out. That's a lot more chaotic than telling the truth and then being with whatever fallout there is there really is, because then that's just a whole other ride that you went on.

Speaker 2: 44:52

It's just a drama ride, and I think it's the way a lot of people live, because you don't know any other way, and I want to give a lot of permission for wherever people are on the path of being honest with yourself and with others, that it is a practice, and that's what I heard you saying with yourself about learning to deliver it and deliver the truth and be really honest, and that's what I'm saying too.

Speaker 2: 45:19

It's just a practice. It's not something you just wake up and you're good at. It's something that I've been practicing for years and years and years and I think I am getting really good at it and it can even be playful and enjoy it and have fun with it, and I think the more I do it and the more honest I become, it becomes a little bit less serious. It used to be such a big deal to try to say the truth because I was so out of practice of it, but now it's really pretty easy most of the time not always like I was saying in the beginning and it could be fun and playful.

Speaker 1: 46:05

That's true.

Speaker 1: 46:06

It is easier the more you do it, for sure, yeah, I concur it does get easier to say what you want to say, what you're thinking, to say things in real time or as close to real time as possible, to clean it up in case it came out sideways. It does get easier, but it gets easier in practice, like we have to be practicing these things practicing feeling into our desires, practicing sharing our desires, practicing telling the truth, practicing being honest with ourselves. We have to be in the practice. We can't be in our minds about it, because that's not going to help us get any better at any of that. It's not a mental practice, it is a living, breathing practice.

Speaker 2: 46:45

It really is. And I want to give a lot of permission to listeners who might be saying oh my god, I don't know how to say this truth. I don't know how to tell this person the truth. It's OK. The first piece is to be honest with yourself. Can you admit the truth to yourself? And then maybe the next truth is I'm not ready to share this yet and maybe you just need time to sit with it. And then I trust you to know when it's time to reveal the truth and don't wait until you're super comfortable to do it, because delivering truths can be really uncomfortable when you're not in practice, or even when you are in practice. But I just want to be really clear. The first step is admitting it to yourself and then admitting to yourself I don't know how to share this or I'm not ready to share it. That's OK 1,000%.

Speaker 1: 47:42

I would even argue that telling yourself the truth is the most important location. We have to accept where we are and see it first, before we can, and any moment in time, communicate it to one other person. And that takes some getting used to, because I think we're also used to lying to ourselves.

Speaker 2: 48:03

Oh, that's a whole other topic. Lying to ourselves, it's true. I think that you know, like I was talking about earlier when I was teaching, and I would talk about how honest I was, I don't think I was lying to myself about how honest I was. I think that was the consciousness level that I was at at the time and I was as honest as I knew how to be.

Speaker 1: 48:29

Yeah, that brings me to another question that our listeners and that I practice, so we can all practice. Can I be even more honest here, right, like as we're sharing something asking ourselves in our own minds, not out loud. Can I be even more honest here, just so that we can start to wiggle what that feels like before even sharing it? Just being with oh wow, I really didn't like this or I really did like that, whatever just kind of checking ourselves as we go right.

Speaker 2: 49:07

I love that. Can I be more honest here and sometimes it's honest about how you feel about it. How does it feel to acknowledge this truth? What are you feeling in your body? What are the sensations? What comes up for you? What patterns come up for you? Where are your resistances? Can you just be honest with all the locations that you are in? And the more honest you can be about that, I think the better position you're in. It's a very powerful position to be in To say I acknowledge this truth. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. I don't know how to share it and I'm afraid that is a really honest statement and I think it's a really powerful statement. It's so vulnerable and so powerful.

Speaker 1: 50:02

Are you saying that when we say that to ourselves, or are you saying say that out loud.

Speaker 2: 50:06

Well, first to ourselves. So we're talking about the practice of being honest with ourselves. So, yeah, to ourself, and you can also say that to another person. You know you can always say to another person I feel really uncomfortable or this is hard for me, I wanna share something, and this is really difficult for me to say. So it's both. What do you think?

Speaker 1: 50:32

When you were speaking about difficulty, being honest, I wasn't thinking about other people. I was thinking about the moments in time when I'm in some kind of fantasy or delusion and I catch it and I'm like, oh, I'm not in reality right now.

Speaker 2: 50:51

Oh, that kind of truth. Oh yeah, fantasy and delusion, that is yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:58

I'm like, oh okay, I've been seeing this all wrong. I've been in complete fantasy and delusion. All right, catherine, are we ready to see this for what it is? I'm like, well, I guess I am, because I can see it now.

Speaker 1: 51:15

But, that's probably the harder moment of being with yourself when you have to pop. It's like you're popping this balloon, you think you see something and then all of a sudden for I'll use a different metaphor you kind of you just swapped out your glasses. You have a completely different vision and you're going oh, my goodness, okay, this is what this is. This was not that Okay. So now how am I moving through the world knowing this right and being willing to adjust once we know better, we see better, we do better.

Speaker 2: 51:52

Totally. Fantasy is a great way to avoid reality and the truth. It feels great, it's like, oh, let me go on this fantasy ride. And it is really great to notice that when we're doing that and pop the balloon, let it fly away and just come back to reality. It's a much better place to be in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 52:18

This has been such a big topic. Oh my God, I can't believe we've been recording for this long. What would you say to yourself now that you know better in hindsight, like if you could speak to that version of you that was really leaning into your desires and then notice, oh wow, I need to be honest in more places. What do you wish? You knew then that you know now.

Speaker 2: 52:47

It's such a good question. I can really picture all the times that I guarded the truth. I had such a strong layer of protection around myself because I was so scared and I would tell myself to get quiet and just ask myself what is true? What is true here, and can I admit it to myself it may be to another person or maybe to God? Can I just be with what is true, like really simple, and that it is okay. It is okay to have uncomfortable truths come up inside of you and I would say that that is an acceptable way to live, because I didn't think it was okay back then. I thought it was terrifying actually, and it went to great lengths to hide it. I know I'm kind of circling around with your question, but that would be the answer is to just I would give myself a big hug and a cup of tea and I would say let's just ask ourselves what's true.

Speaker 1: 54:12

How about you? I love how you would give yourself a cup of tea. That's the best With honey.

Speaker 2: 54:21

Yeah, I really felt a lot of love for myself because when you asked me that question, I could really feel into the old version of me. That was terrified. I was so scared of all the changes that were happening and the truths that were inside me. I had no way of knowing what to do with this and it was super messy. I have a lot of love and compassion for that old version of myself and she needs a lot of love. So she not only gets a cup of tea with honey, she gets a warm, fuzzy blanket and like a super comfortable onesie to sit in. That's how I go back and love my old self. What about you? Would you tell your old self?

Speaker 1: 55:13

I think I would have to tell myself I know it's really scary right now and, yes, they're not gonna like it, or there's a high probability, because it wasn't always but there's a high probability that they're not going to like what you have to say and that's okay. It took me a long time to be okay with that, from a very value neutral place, I think. In the beginning stages I had to sort of armor my heart and be walled off. It took some time, so I would want that version of me to know that the time will come when I will be a lot more value neutral about it. So what that means is now I am the type of person that can tell the truth and I understand in some cases it might be painful or somebody doesn't like it and it could potentially break the connection, and that's okay and that for me, what's more important is honest connecting than fake connecting.

Speaker 2: 56:23

That's really beautiful. They might not like it, and that's okay. That's like there's so much permission in that. So much permission Cause we're so conditioned that it's not okay if people aren't okay and that that's your responsibility in some way. So this is beautiful. Permission, Catherine. Thank you for that.

Speaker 1: 56:50

Thank you. Is there anything else you wanna say as we wrap up?

Speaker 2: 56:56

I wanna say there's so much more to say about honesty. I love that we talked about this today and I would love to hear from our listeners on what has touched you, what has touched you on this topic and what comes up for you around being honest.

Speaker 1: 57:11

I love that question. I'm curious too. I wanna know what comes up for our cool listeners and around desire and being honest and saying what you want as well as what you think. And, yes, if they have any questions, that lets us hear those too. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 57:27

Yes, and I do want to invite everyone to our next live event, desire Discovery Hour, which is on Thursday, march 14th at 7 pm Eastern. The link is in the show notes. It's free, where you get to hang out with Catherine and I and talk about desire for an hour. We would absolutely love to have you there.

Speaker 1: 57:50

Yes, yay, I hope I can't wait to see everybody there. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine podcast Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply intimate with ourselves and others. You can find our handles in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. Get we out here now.