2. Prof. Christopher Cameron on Black Freethinkers plus Ending Conversion Therapy

Audrey Simmons, co-lead of the Association of Black Humanists joins James & AJ this week to discuss her personal journey and the unique challenges for the Black community in the UK when it comes to embracing humanism.

AJ provides an update on the proposed ban of conversion therapy in the UK. Despite the government's commitment to a ban, delays, and recent news of the draft bill's cancellation have sparked a wave of demonstrations. Together, we stand in allyship with the campaign to ban conversion therapy and discuss how you, our listeners, can join the movement.

Plus,  Prof. Christopher Cameron, author of Black Freethinkers,  A History of African American Secularism joins the podcast to discuss his personal journey and the figures who inspired his seminal book, as well as the future of freethought in America.

Here more from Chris Cameron, live in Conversation with S.I. Martin on 22 September 2023 in Central London.

Finally, our mailbag question this week: Just what does it mean to be spiritual but not religious?

Refences:
Association of Black Humanists
Humanists International - Amsterdam Declaration 2022
Humanists UK - Banning Conversion Therapy Campaign

Book recommendations from Prof. Cameron;

• Sikivu Hutchinson 
• Michael Lackey, African American Atheists and Political Liberation
• Anthony Pinn, By These Hands & The End of God-Talk 

Transcript

James H: 0:01

Hello and welcome to episode two of Humanism Now the new podcast from the central London humanists. I'm your host, james, and this week we'll be talking about what it means to be Black, british and humanist in the UK today an update from the government's ban on conversion therapy and just what does it mean to be spiritual and non-religious. Plus all that, plus our interview with Professor Christopher Cameron, and to discuss this I'm delighted to be joined by our regular guest, aj from Central London Humanists, young Humanists, humanists International. I think it's getting to the point where we should probably just mention the groups that you're not involved with.

AJ: 0:43

It's just AJ's fine. Yeah, hi, James, glad to join you.

James H: 0:48

And also this week. I'm delighted to introduce a new guest, Audrey Simmons, colleague at Central London Humanists and one of the co-leads of the Association of Black Humanists covering all of the UK. Welcome, Audrey, Thank you Great. Well, I think it'd be great if you could just give our listeners a bit of an introduction to yourself and perhaps your personal journey to humanism.

Audrey Simmons: 1:09

Wow. Thank you, James. Thank you, AJ. As I say, my name is Audrey Simmons and I am one of the co-leads of Association of Black Humanists, an organisation that's been around for about 10 years, working in the humanist community with a particular focus on the African-African, Caribbean and the diaspora of the people who have left religion, thinking of leaving religion and kind of looking at all the issues that go with being from countries such as Nigeria or the Caribbean, where leaving religion is not just a case of just sort of deciding not to go, where there are other issues culturally and being part of that community. So that's our focus. We've been doing this, as I say, for around 10 years, just trying to make humanism a little bit more comfortable and making people aware that there is such a thing as black humanists, black non-believers, black free thinkers, and that is mainly our aim in the kind of work that we do and the kind of events that we put on and the kind of talks that we give is to just generally repeat that point.

Audrey Simmons: 2:19

I myself started out as a.

Audrey Simmons: 2:22

I suppose I've had a mix of religions and upbringing.

Audrey Simmons: 2:26

I went to a church of England school but my family were seven-day Adventists, so I ended up going to church on Saturdays and Sundays, which is probably one of the little schizophrenic in terms of religion and so being raised in that kind of environment, sort of focusing on the end of times I think anyone who's a seven-day Adventist kind of focuses on revelations, so they're all that kind of end of times kind of religion Leaving that I stopped going sort of to church quite early on but still had to be involved because of my family.

Audrey Simmons: 3:07

So I had to kind of still be going quite regularly and it's been a kind of slow unpacking, unpicking of religious rituals and things that we kind of have to do as non-believers once you've been raised in a religious household. So it's taken me a long time to kind of get to the point where I can feel comfortable in saying I am a Black person, I am from a religious family, but I am a non-believer, and I think that's the story of many people from my community, many Black people from my community, and it's a long, slow process. There's no epiphany, there's none of that. It's just kind of taking the time to read, to think and then to feel comfortable and then facing the challenges that some people do face when having made that decision to be no longer involved within the religious community.

James H: 4:07

And do you think there are some unique challenges for Black people who are either coming out as non-believers or want to proactively state that they're humanists?

Audrey Simmons: 4:15

There are definitely unique challenges. I think when we look at the Black community, it has been depicted, and still is, a heavily religious community. So, wherever part of Africa you come from, where part of the Caribbean you come from, being religious and religion as part of the fabric of society. If we think of where I'm from I'm from Jamaica think of the Caribbean.

Audrey Simmons: 4:40

The very fabric of the whole foundation of those societies, once slavery was over, was about being controlled by religious organisations and religious institutions, whether it be the Catholic Church, the Moravian, the Quakers Baptists, a whole range of organisations would then sweep in. So the whole backdrop to the Caribbean life was about religion in terms of education, in terms of health, all of those things. And if we look in Africa now, the Catholic Church is one of the biggest churches provided healthcare and education within Africa, and so again, we have this big backdrop of religion. So if you speak to many religious people, there are many African people. You know religion pays an enormous part in their lives and we just need to keep that voice out there because obviously we know that in Nigeria, with the Islamic and Christian beliefs being there, there are real troubles, real problems with people being arrested and things like that. So the black community has particular issues that I think that don't exist within the wider European community.

AJ: 6:04

Yeah, I just like to pick up on something that Audrey said there about just being visible and allowing that possibility in people's minds that they can leave their faith, especially when it's embedded in your life.

AJ: 6:17

I know that some of our colleagues from say faith to faithless, which is not a part of part of humanist UK and they work a lot with apostates, for example, from the Muslim background, and I've had Muslim apostates say to me I wasn't even aware that it was a possibility to leave Islam and it sounds a bit odd. It's just a belief system. You in our Western, fairly liberal bubble we can to an extent although there are some extreme elements also here you can buy into or buy out of, join and leave belief systems groups. We have a different relationship with the religion to other people in other parts of the world. So having that possibility, having that visibility okay, there is a black humanist association or there is a, you know, ex-muslims association having that as a possibility, just putting that banner up for people who may be quite cut off in their family neighborhoods, in their kind of cul-de-sacs of society, enforced cul-de-sacs, because that's how they retain control. Because of that, having a visibility of a group like black humanist, I think is really important.

Audrey Simmons: 7:22

Yes, I think that's. I'm not a quiet person. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not one of those people that just sit down and just kind of think well, this is where I am. I am a kind of person that would need to step forward and say and shout out very loudly that this is a possibility. And, adi, I think you raise an important point that it's about just being aware that people can do this, that you can actually opt out.

Audrey Simmons: 7:46

That's the hardest thing, especially when you're not just it's not just your culture and your community, it's your way of life and it's a way of life that you've known all your life and everyone around you has that same thinking. So you have to get over the idea that you're actually a bit odd, you're the odd one out and dealing with all of that and that can be quite you know sort of you become quite angst-ridden and what's wrong with me? And usually find that people who leave usually become much more religious in that kind of quest to kind of think why am I strange, why am I not like the rest of my family? And I think that's an important thing to remember that people are going on a journey and that journey is quite traumatic.

James H: 8:34

So, yeah, so, and because they're losing so much, Actually, one question that we had coming out of last week's episode was just for perhaps more of a precise definition or specific definition of humanism. I was just wondering, audrey, you mentioned, you know you're not going to, you're not going to stay quiet, you know. So it's not just just a case of leaving faith and quietly, you know not being a believer. I just wondered what, for you, was the reason why you wanted to come out as a humanist and publicly facing and present and say I am a humanist and what does humanism mean to you? That is not there in just being a non-believer.

Audrey Simmons: 9:17

The reason I wanted to come out is to give people that choice. I think one thing that's lacking in black communities and African communities is the choice to be who you want to be. We talk so much about it in their you know your sense of identity and all of these things, and I think if people don't actually know that, they can actually be a non-believer. But, more importantly, what I think humanism offers is the understanding that you can leave religion and still be okay, that you can still be kind, moral and all the rest of those things that have been so caught up with religion that they've taken over the idea that if you are not with them, that you are somehow the worst human being ever. And I think that causes the answer who am I? If I am not a Christian, if I am not a Muslim, if I am not a seven-day Adventist, who am I? And I think humanism offers an answer to that. You are still, you know, you're still a person, you're a human being. But it also offers that for me it's a relief. It's a relief not to be so answering about who am I allowed to be with. What kind of Christian can I be? What kind of Christian can I be involved with as a seven-day Adventist, the Catholic Church was the Antichrist.

Audrey Simmons: 10:37

So there's all this angst about you know, how am I going to live my life? What's this Christian life supposed to be? Who am I supposed to be mixed with? Who am I supposed to be avoiding? And when you kind of let go of all of that, there's a sense of relief and there's a sense of a way forward as a human being and how you can reconnect with not just yourself, with your community, but with a wider world. When you suddenly realize that you're part of something much bigger and that you have a contribution to make and a legacy to leave, even if it's not you know, you're not going to be on TV or famous just the community that you are with. Just to say I am humanist, I am here and I'm living a life. I'm living a great life and I'm in touch with every single one of you and you know, just have those kind of open and free conversations without restriction. For me is what humanism represents.

James H: 11:34

Yeah and AJ. How would you define humanism? What is it that you believe?

AJ: 11:40

Thanks, james. Yeah, we mentioned this a bit last episode and I think it's one of the characteristics of humanist discussions that we're always seems to be defining humanism. We always seem to be picking away at it and lifting up the rock and seeing what's underneath it. But I think that's part of that's actually demonstrating one of the hallmarks of humanism is critical thinking, is investigation, is a willingness to reexamine our own precepts, our own axioms, and just trying to get it trimmed down to the essentials on the core. And revisiting our world views and refreshing them is, I think, one hallmark of humanism that, as you mentioned in episode one, many other belief in faith systems don't share. We can include the link to the declaration on modern humanism from Humanist International, and I was there when it was voted in Glasgow. This is the follow up to all, the new version of the Amsterdam Declaration which had existed for some time before that many years, and that really boils down to its core, the full, main point of what in Humanist International and their members view, but it is quite representative globally what humanism is and what humanism and what humanists strive to be. They strive to be rational, which means using evidence based reasoning and evident and scientific methods, which we think is the best empirical tool we have for investigating the world around us striving to be rational using the scientific method, striving to be ethical and empathetic, and within all of that is concern for the natural world, the sentient organisms generally, or striving to be democratic as well, and especially we see it in a world that's heavily dominated by populist politics. We're questioning ourselves so what democracy is? Is it mob rule? Is it not so? A reference to a democracy was also there, and the reference to empathy also, a taxes idea of maybe being just an atheist or maybe even being an islas. So we're not so.

AJ: 13:39

As Audrey said there, with her background and what she's bringing to the humanist experience in her path living well and showing that you can have a full, fulfilling life, full of wonder, full of love mystery. I mentioned my humanist spirituality connections in episode one. We may come to that a bit later. All of those things she mentioned about living a full life and not living a half life, which is the propaganda that we sometimes get from others about humanists and atheists, that also is their living and fulfilling life, full of human flourishing, human creativity and free expression. So those three are four points there as what we find in the Amsterdam, in the Declaration of Modern Humanism. Excuse me, and so that's also how I'd respond to that.

James H: 14:22

Thank you both so much, but just before we move on, audrey, if anybody is interested to get involved or join the Association of Black Humanists, what's the best way for them to get in touch?

Audrey Simmons: 14:35

We use Meetup for all our events and making contact with any members, and that's where we are. So Meetup. Association of Black Humanists.

James H: 14:46

It's also been a very busy week for AJ and members of the LGBT humanists, young humanists and other humanist UK groups having a day trip down to Parliament to put some pressure on the Prime Minister. Aj, could you give us an update on the campaign that you've been involved with?

AJ: 15:04

Yes, we're fresh off a demo yesterday at Parliament Square in front of the House of Lords and the House of Commons and this was in relation to the ban on conversion therapy in the UK. So maybe we could start off with some background, just very briefly. Conversion therapy, as many listeners may know, is a kind of diverse set of practices religiously associated, in many cases part of as we mentioned before when we look to Audrey's story in the settings of churches and other family and other worship groups, where there is a set of religious and maybe slightly even pseudo-scientific practices that aim to, for example quote unquote pray away the gay exorcisms and other kind of practices that are targeted at quite vulnerable and often quite young people who maybe from a religious background but their families are disapproving of their sex and gender identity and orientation and preferences. So this is a human rights abuse, a grave human rights abuse. It's an international scandal really that we try and have a moral authority on an international scene but yet we can't even get our own house in order and try and allow for these basic human rights breathing spaces to exist.

AJ: 16:23

So five years ago the government committed to or announced that it's going to introduce legislation to ban conversion therapy in the UK.

AJ: 16:32

Since then, there's been, as we know, tumultuous period for many reasons in the UK, but still, I think, politics aside and partisan politics aside, this is a grave human rights issue and nothing's been done about it.

AJ: 16:42

There's been several U-turns.

AJ: 16:44

The latest that we got from it before yesterday or before the summer which is what response, which is what prompted us to go on this demo yesterday was that there was a draft bill sitting with Rishi Sunak, the prime minister, and was waiting for his signature, but there's been no action taken on it and actually there's. Now the latest news is that it's been cancelled completely. So we wanted to go out there and really make this visible and raise the banner to say and in allyship with Stonewall and many other partners who are also working to make sure conversion therapy is banned that this is completely unacceptable. So we were there with LGBT humanists colleagues, young humanists UK, represented by myself, and also other humanist UK volunteers, and we actually made it onto ITV national news, which is quite a good exposure for us, because this really, really is a key issue and we just wouldn't be able to look our LGBT humanists colleagues and friends in the eye if we don't do all we can to take action on this and to force the government to stick to their commitments.

James H: 17:56

I suspect a lot of listeners might be surprised that these practices are still happening in the UK. How prevalent is conversion therapy in the modern day?

AJ: 18:06

Well, again, the UK government's own census data or research has shown, when they've done, when they've looked into the prevalence of this, that probably about 5 to 10% I think maybe 7% was the figure of LGBT plus people in the UK have undergone some form of conversion therapy.

AJ: 18:29

Again, it's a very wide, broad range of practices and of that proportion of people, about half of them, or just over half of them, have had it done in a religious setting.

AJ: 18:40

So for us as humanists UK, who are really the leading non religious representative body and charity in the UK, that strikes at the very heart of our mission, because there's non religious people or religious people who are doubting their faith or who find themselves in a position of vulnerability and who feel trapped.

AJ: 18:59

As I said yesterday at the protest and I was interviewed they feel trapped in that situation and also, as Audrey has described a bit with her background as well, when you have everyone around you making you feel like you're under the spotlight, like making you feel you've done something wrong and that you need to be cured or that what you feel as a natural urge is just a lifestyle choice. There's vulnerable people there that day by day, are still suffering, and the main theme of the protest yesterday the demonstration was abuse doesn't take a solid break and we had a beach theme and to Ryan really kept to put that in people's minds and to get that on social media and to try and increase the pressure on our society and the government who represents us to stick to their commitment.

James H: 19:44

You said the latest news is that it's being cancelled. Has that been officially confirmed or is that just due to the substantial delays at this point?

AJ: 19:54

Yeah, it was what's been reported in response to some of the news that we're hearing this week, but the government hasn't officially commented on it. But it seems like they're maneuvering, which wouldn't surprise us, because that's the pattern of behavior that we've been seeing yes no, yes, no and then delays. It just doesn't seem to be a priority for this government, which is which sells a lot, because we are just to take a wider perspective on things, a global perspective, when we are trying to impose our diplomatic and moral authority internationally would say, for example, iran or Russia, and that's very important that we do that and that we do try and represent these liberal values generally internationally, such as they are. If we're doing that, for trying to do that abroad, but even in on our own shores, we can't even ensure the basic.

AJ: 20:41

I mean someone's sexuality and someone's gender preference is one of the most personal things that you can possibly get. It's very, very important, and especially at a young age. I mean young humanists broadly are 18 to 35. That's kind of our remit for me as one of the coordinators of young humanists, but essentially we should be looking at. We have school speakers and we try to outreach education through educational campaigns. So we're concerned about humanists and potential humanists of all ages and at that really young age, especially in the teenage age, in your early 20s, in the formative years, if you're not allowed to express your sexuality and gender in identity in the way that you naturally feel that you should be, that can be traumatizing for life. So, apart from the moral authority, it loses us diplomatically and internationally. There's also a really great human rights abuse here that's being ignored. So yeah, it looks like it's trying to be deep prioritized by this government and there is there are some rumors that it could just be cancelled completely and we can't let that happen.

Audrey Simmons: 21:44

Keep up that work. It's really hard In the communities that I work with, in the African community, african Caribbean community, homosexuality is still seen very much in light in line with religious values and even if you're not particularly religious, within within the community, homosexuality is still one of the biggest taboos that we have going on. There's always an ongoing issue and it's coupled with the idea of masculinity as well. So in some of these, the toxic, massive masculinity that is also out there and quite prevalent. So you know, this combination of of things within within the community can be quite traumatic and can be life changing. We will again. If you're suspected of being gay, it can be. You know you can be ostracized even whether you are or not. If they're, you know, if you're not masculine enough, just that hint of being gay or possibility can you know that can totally take over and destroy your life. So I think it's important that you know the work that the human is UK and everyone that you're working with, aj, continues that work and continues that voice being heard.

James H: 22:57

Yeah, I'd echo that. Thank you, AJ, and if again, anybody would like to support that campaign or get involved, what would be the best way to contact you there? Do?

AJ: 23:08

Yes, there's one of our key campaigns as part of Humanist UK. You can go to humanistuk, our website, or follow Humanist UK or LGBT Humanists and Young Humanists on socials.

James H: 23:20

Thank you. Now, as mentioned at the top of the show, we will next week be hosting our joint event with the Association of Black Humanists and our guest speaker, I'm delighted to say, has joined us for an interview just to preview that talk. So here's my interview with Chris Cameron. Dr Christopher Cameron is an associate professor of history at the University of North Carolina. He's the founder of the African American Intellectual History Society, the author of To Plead Our Own Case African Americans in Massachusetts and the Making of the Anti-Slavery Movement, and the co-editor of New Perspectives on the Black Intellectual Tradition. His most recent book, Black Free Thinkers, explores the history of secularism in the United States. Dr Cameron, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to Humanism Now.

Chis Cameron: 24:05

Thank you for having me.

James H: 24:07

It's an honor to have you on the show and we're very much looking forward to hearing more about Black Free Thinkers in your event with both our groups and SI Martin on the 22nd of September. But I think perhaps just to start, it'd be great to find out more about your background and your personal journey to humanism, and what inspired you to write the book.

Chis Cameron: 24:29

Yeah, sure. So I had probably a somewhat unconventional path towards humanism. So I wasn't really raised traditionally religious. My mom's side of the family is French Catholics from Quebec and they had migrated down to New Hampshire in the 60s. Growing up, I went to church once or twice a year Easter, midnight mass, that type of thing, not really important Every once in a blue moon. My mom would feel guilty about not really exposing us to church and oddly enough she wouldn't bring us to a Catholic church. She would bring us to some storefront evangelical church or something like that. We'd go for a couple of weeks and then fall off. But I actually sort of turned more towards religion when I was incarcerated so I got into dealing drugs when I was in high school.

Chis Cameron: 25:21

I got arrested in June of 2001, and I went to a county jail in Manchester, new Hampshire, and probably a week or a week and a half into my sentence. I remember I was reading this book called An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreischer, about a young man who had committed a murder after achieving some success in life and he's sitting in jail at the end and pondering his whole life. And I could under a late not to the murder part but to the sitting in jail and wondering what have I done? And he accepts God at the end and it's all good, and that kind of pushed me to do the same thing. I'd remembered some religious lessons from my grandmother growing up and got on my knees and did the whole. You know Jesus come into my heart and everything, and so I thought I would say I thought I was good to go. But it was kind of weird because after that I immediately started questioning the entire thing like well, am I really saved? How do I really know? Jesus didn't actually tell me or confirm that I am. So even you know I was having doubts pretty soon after I'd get out after eight months in 2002, and I was basically forced by the state to attend religious recovery. Right, alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous they say they don't have to be religious, but it seemed pretty religious to me like state sanctioned and forced religiosity. So I did that for a few years until I got off probation, ended up transferring, going to college and then transferring to a school out in Western New Hampshire. Wasn't really particularly religious there or anything. Then, when I went to grad school, that's when I actually got into kind of formal religion.

Chis Cameron: 27:08

Right, I started a PhD program in history at UNC, chapel Hill in 2006. And I was one of two black PhD students in my cohort and there just weren't a lot of other like black graduate students in general, and I was kind of searching for community right and I was also kind of wrestling with questions of my own identity and my own blackness, being a mixed race person. So I ended up going to the AME church in Chapel Hill African Methodist Episcopal. I joined the church, I was pretty ardent for about six months and then it just started to feel really empty to me right. I didn't feel like I was going through all the rituals and the motions out of any like innate desire and I also started looking around and kind of questioning what was going on in the services. Like the same person catches the Holy Spirit at the same time in the sermon every single week. Like why isn't the Holy Spirit more egalitarian? Why wouldn't he like spread his holiness around to other people? Why is it the same dude at the same time every week? So then it started to feel really empty and kind of meaningless to me and I just started realizing like I didn't believe in this stuff. So I was searching for a little bit.

Chis Cameron: 28:32

I went to the Quaker meeting in Chapel Hill for a while and I could kind of get with that right, because it didn't seem religious. We would go, we would meditate, basically Sometimes somebody would say something, other times we would sit there for an hour all basically just meditating together and I was like, yeah, this is kind of cool. I was reading some like Eastern religions and philosophy at the time so I could kind of get with that. In the Eastern philosophers I was reading, one in particular was Jidu Krishnamurti and I kind of came upon him by accident just watching a movie and seeing a movie about Rubin Hurricane Carter called the Hurricane, and seeing Rubin Carter reading this book by Krishnamurti while he was in his prison cell called the Awakening of Intelligence. So I went and I got the book and I got a few of his other books.

Chis Cameron: 29:27

Krishnamurti really attacks our belief and adherence to traditions and rituals simply for the sake of this is how it's always been done right, and his books really show kind of how ridiculous it is to just believe in something for no other reason than this is how we've always believed, right, and so I don't think he was necessarily an atheist and certainly not a part of the secular movement, but for me he was like a sort of way station towards atheism and humanism.

Chis Cameron: 30:00

Right, he got me thinking about just traditional Christianity and kind of questioning everything that I'd been taught. And from there I would then discover some of the writings of the new atheists Susan Jacobi and Sam Harris and Dawkins and Hitchens and others and I was just, I was immediately convinced, right, yeah, I've just read them and it just really made sense to me the arguments against traditional conceptions of God and for evolution and especially for the way that religion has harmed societies around the globe and the critical damage that it's done, even from religious moderates and some religious liberals, given sanction to some of the more extreme and radical forms of religion. So this was probably about my second going into my third year of graduate school. So, looking at about 2008, 2009,. By the time I finished my PhD in 2010, I was pretty fully identified as an atheist and a humanist. So that's kind of the sort of religious path for me.

James H: 31:16

Yeah, and I can see it's like at various points, different elements of the religion kind of get chipped away. It was interesting actually that the ritual side of things, which I think is often seen as one of the positives of religion and that was the thing that you were turned against as well.

Chis Cameron: 31:31

Yeah, yeah, it's strange, just like stand up now sing this song now, I don't know. It just really kind of turned me off for some reason Although that's not necessarily, and I think it might have been the rituals combined with the theology and the religious messages. Because when I've attended, I guess, secular churches, if you will, one of which I was just at about a week and a half ago, the Houston Oasis down in Texas, I'm not turned off by, you know, the kind of more churchier parts of this secular meeting, right, but I was in the context of a traditional church.

James H: 32:10

Do you feel like religion continues to do harm in the US?

Chis Cameron: 32:14

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Chis Cameron: 32:16

I mean, we can see this with the religious right and it's, you know, close relationship to the very radical and leaning towards, if not already fascist, republican political party in this country.

Chis Cameron: 32:29

And religion, looking specifically at, you know, the African American community, still continues to sort of harm us in terms of religious discrimination and just sort of religious sort of shaming of individuals. We see something like the recent Supreme Court decision that banned abortion or that sort of overturned Roe versus Wade not banning abortion, but overturned the decision Roe versus Wade and allowed states to now ban abortion at their level, like that's basically what the religious right has been fighting for for years. And we're already getting reports of, you know, women having to flee to other states and being afraid of being persecuted and prosecuted by authorities in their home states. Some states are trying to now make laws where if you travel to another state to get an abortion, you can be prosecuted. So I mean it really seems like we're moving towards some handmade tail type stuff. In certain states. It's not at the national level yet, but the religious right certainly does want to ban abortion at the national level, even though they claim to believe in states' rights.

James H: 33:47

Was that rising threat part of your inspiration behind why now was the right time to write? Black Free Thinkers.

Chis Cameron: 33:57

Part of the inspiration was one my own research into sort of religious discrimination against African Americans and even practitioners of African traditional religions. But it was also just my own kind of budding and growing identity as an atheist and as a humanist. So I had pretty much fully accepted atheism by about 2010. I was. I finished my dissertation that same year, so I took a couple of years. I revised my first book and then, around mid to late 2012, I was looking for a new book project and that's when I kind of also stumbled upon different blogs and some different Black organizations like African Americans for Humanism.

Chis Cameron: 34:47

I found Black non-believers and started connecting with some folks online and on the blogs and websites of these organizations I would see individual profiles of particular Black Free Thinkers, right, a couple of paragraphs on Zora Neale Hurston or Langston Hughes or somebody like that. So that started to pique my interest. I'd come across some of these and then go back like a historian does go back to the primary sources and, okay, well, you got this little excerpt of Zora Neale Hurston's secularism from this source. Let me go back and read the entire thing.

Chis Cameron: 35:22

And when I started to do this, I started to just think that there really is something to you know there being a significance of Black secularism in African American intellectual and political history. That doesn't really seem to have gotten a lot of attention from historians. Right, we have biographies of particular individuals and as an afterthought, their agnosticism or atheism will be mentioned. But you know, I wasn't really finding that any historians had written, you know, an overarching history exploring the importance of secularism in African American life, whereas there are hundreds, if not thousands, of books exploring the significance of religion in African American life. So I thought something needed to be done about that. And so it's really just kind of a perfect confluence of my own individual interests and me being able to bring a key part of my identity, but also needing a second book for my job and needing to kind of keep publishing and the like, and finding that, you know, this is an area that I can really make an important historical contribution.

James H: 36:45

And did you find that the roots of African American secularism were distinct from a lot of the narratives or stories that were told were being told about the rise in secularism generally, or is this very much a similar story in terms of where these questions started to arise from?

Chis Cameron: 37:07

Yeah, no, they're absolutely distinct. So if we're looking at the rise of secularism among white intellectuals and thinkers, you know, like Thomas Paine and Jefferson and Ethan Allen and others, we really look to kind of two key sources. One is enlightenment philosophy and the application of ideas about natural laws to religion and the sort of rise of deism called the religion of nature. And we also look to a lesser extent to the rise of kind of liberal Protestantism during the 18th century, sort of a forerunner to Unitarianism. So that could be sort of again kind of like. Krishna Murdy was for me sort of a way station towards deism and secularism.

Chis Cameron: 37:53

That wasn't necessarily the case for African Americans because with the restrictions in just about all southern colonies and then states after the American Revolution, most enslaved people were forbidden from learning how to read and could face incredibly severe punishments for doing so. So they weren't necessarily as conversant with Enlightenment thinkers, but they were nevertheless intelligent individuals themselves who could look at their world, reason and kind of think about the ideas that they were hearing, about the nature of the world, about religion, about the character of God, and they could come to their own conclusions based upon their experiences, and for most enslaved people those experiences were suffering and brutality and physical punishment and separation from family and distress. Right Not to say that there weren't times of joy with the birth of a child or getting married or anything like that. But a central and critical component of slavery was the suffering. Right, that's how it was maintained.

Chis Cameron: 39:03

So you had enslaved people who were like looking around and thinking I can't believe that there's a just and omnipotent and benevolent God who cares about my interests and who created this world.

Chis Cameron: 39:18

Right, if there is a God, it must be one that hates black people. But for many it's just easier to believe that there's no God altogether. So you do see, during the late 18th and throughout the 19th centuries, kind of parallel developments of secularism, with white secularism being based largely on Enlightenment philosophy and black secularism sort of emerging out of the lived experiences and realities of slavery. Those two would come together a bit more in the later 19th and moving into the 20th century, when African Americans are able to access both secondary and higher education, when they are able to become more conversant with Enlightenment thought. So, curiously enough, you actually see Rousseau and Paine and Montesquieu playing more of a role in black secular development during the early 20th century than it did closer to the time period when they were writing. I found evidence of folks like Hubert Harrison and Harry Haywood in the early 20th century talking about reading these 18th century European philosophers and how they influence their views on religion.

James H: 40:34

I wonder were there any individuals whose stories really stood out for you in researching the book, as perhaps people that we should know more about?

Chis Cameron: 40:44

Yeah, absolutely. One is a woman named Louise Thompson Patterson, and when we think about black secularism there are some figures that maybe do stand out. We might think, okay, frederick Douglass or perhaps WEB Du Bois are looking at the civil rights era. Like Huey Newton and a lot of the folks in the Black Panther Party. Louise Thompson Patterson is somebody who is much more kind of understated and hasn't received as much attention, but I was able to find a lot of evidence for her growing secularism in an unpublished autobiography that she nearly completed and went through a few different drafts of, and is located in an archive at Emory University in Atlanta, georgia. There she talks about her experiences with religious discrimination and racism growing up in Washington State, in Walla, walla, washington and other kind of smaller, more rural areas of Washington State in the early 20th century.

Chis Cameron: 41:51

She then attended the University of California, berkeley, in the early 1920s and would articulate her opposition to religion in sort of a number of different arenas in her life. She ended up being a really prominent member of the Communist Party, which really opened up a lot of opportunities for leadership for Black women that were not available to them within African American organizations, especially Black churches. So she was a really prominent Communist organizer, an atheist and a free thinker and she lived an incredibly long life. She lived until she was almost 100 years old. She was around and friends with Langston Hughes and the Harlem Renaissance and she lived until the early 90s. So she saw almost the entire arc of the 20th century and was really critically involved in some key moments in Black political history. So yeah, kind of finding that evidence about her was just really amazing.

Chis Cameron: 42:51

I actually went to Emory to work in the papers of Alice Walker, who I knew was a free thinker because she had won the Humanist of the Year Award from the American Humanist Association. So I knew that and I had access to that published speech. I went to work in Walker's personal papers just to read through all of her letters and see if there are other connections. When I was talking about the archivist, he told me about Louise Thompson Patterson's papers. I'm like all right, so that was a really great and exciting find for me.

James H: 43:25

It does seem like there's more female voices in this story than perhaps we usually hear in, as I said, the European narrative of the Enlightenment right the way through to the New Atheist movement. Do you think there's a reason behind?

Chis Cameron: 43:39

that Well, I tried to be really intentional about finding all of the evidence I could from Black female free thinkers and this is in large part motivated by the pioneering work of the contemporary female Black free thinker Sikivu Hutchinson, whose books Moral Combat and Godless Americana I really just kind of ate up and that kind of pushed me to look for all the historical female Black free thinkers that I could and to really just highlight their stories as much as possible because, you're right, they haven't really been told. So I tried to include people like Patterson and Nella Larson and Hurston and others to show that they were critically important in this history and really drivers at some points of the kind of conversations around Black secularism.

James H: 44:34

And I wondered was there anything which you changed your mind from in researching and putting this book together? Was there anything you found particularly surprising?

Chis Cameron: 44:47

The main thing was organizational, so I was going to initially, the book was going to go up to 2020, right. Black free thinkers basically ends around the civil rights era, though, and then I have an afterward, that kind of traces some of the history after 1975, but does so very sort of briefly and perfunctorily, and that's because, as I started gathering materials for the post civil rights era, I found that there was just so much that it was going to be too unwieldy of a final chapter. Right, even the last chapter of Black free thinkers on the civil rights era. That was pretty long I think it was close to 70 manuscript pages, right, and I had way more materials for the post civil rights period. So, yeah, I decided that I was going to write a second volume as a follow up that just looked at the period from 1975 through 2020.

James H: 45:46

I wondered well, what is the reception being like to the book? You know it's been out and you've probably had chance to get some feedback.

Chis Cameron: 45:55

Yeah, I think it's been pretty good. I've been invited to give talks all across the United States and you know I've had good crowds at many of these events. It's especially been well received by Unitarian Universalists, which is not a particularly diverse denomination but they're very, very interested in the history of secularism and have really kind of eaten up this work on Black secularism. So that's probably one kind of group that I've given more talks about Black free thinkers to than any other ones. But yeah, the reception I think has been pretty strong, from UU churches to secular organizations throughout the US and some universities as well.

James H: 46:41

Well, that bodes well for the success of your next book, then of the Universalists, particularly Keen, yeah. And what about the state of Black free thought since the books come out, have you seen? Do you think it's contributed to a rise?

Chis Cameron: 46:57

I'm not sure it's always contributed to a rise, but I think there is already sort of a broader movement away from institutional religion within the United States and the recent Pew Forum for the study of religion has kind of shown that shift in Black religious life and in American religious life more broadly. But I do think you know, for the audiences that I've spoken to, I have gotten a lot of feedback from people that said that you know they never knew any of this history and it's sort of inspired them to kind of talk to their family about their own beliefs. So I do think on a kind of more individual level, here and there my book has had some impact. But I don't think I can necessarily take credit for sort of the larger trends that were already kind of in play before the book was published.

James H: 47:47

If anyone's interested in finding out more in this area, are there any other books you would recommend, aside from your own?

Chis Cameron: 47:54

Yeah, michael Lackey has a book called African American Atheists and Political Liberation. It's very academic, it's kind of a literary analysis of some of the writings of early 20th century Black atheists but it's a really great sort of in-depth look at sort of the development of Black atheists thought at the time and then basically anything written by Anthony Pinn, who's been working in the area of Black humanism for nearly three decades now. I would especially suggest his edited collection by these hands, a documentary history of African American humanism, as well as his book the End of God Talk, where he sort of works to develop in African American humanist theology. So yeah, michael Lackey and Anthony Pinn and Sakebu Hutchinson, who I mentioned earlier, some wonderful works on the intersections of gender and Black free thought.

James H: 48:55

And if anyone listening would like to find out more, what would be the best way to get in contact or to follow you?

Chis Cameron: 49:03

You can email me at christophercamron at charlotteedu it's my university email address or you can look me up on Facebook and I'll be happy to get back to you and look forward to meeting a lot of folks listening to this next Friday.

James H: 49:20

Chris Cameron there and, as mentioned, you'll be able to catch Chris in conversation with SI Martin on the 22nd of September here in central London. Audrey, I know you've also read Chris's book and I just wanted to get your initial thoughts on the interview and what you took from the book.

Audrey Simmons: 49:39

The interview was really nice to get a background on Professor Cameron and where he was coming from and where that book came from. The book itself, for me, felt quite seminal. It felt like we've been waiting for the context for Black Free Thought and I think he was able to put that foundation in. It felt like the kind of book that gave you all the background. We know some of the names. We knew WED Boyce. We knew you know, we know Frederick Douglass. We know these names, but we know them in sort of snippets. We kind of know bits about their lives and we think we know them.

Audrey Simmons: 50:19

But I think for me, this book actually kind of puts them in context and also lets you know that nothing happens in a vacuum. So by the time we get to James Baldwin, we have a whole history of people you know, starting from slavery all the way through, and that constant, relentless idea of free thought threading its way all the way through was quite empowering for me to be sitting there thinking actually, you know to be in. You know we're standing on the shoulders of giants in terms of how we, where we are now sitting here in 2023 and how far this whole journey has come. So I felt quite, you know, it was really empowering for me and I really love the book and kind of felt that it's a kind of book that anyone coming new to humanism you kind of go you want to know where you come from here, you know, you might make it sort of compulsory reading for ABH members or something like that.

James H: 51:22

Absolutely, and I think it's a shame we've got to wait another three or four years for volume two, although it's pleased good to know that it is coming down the tracks. Aj, what did you take away most?

AJ: 51:33

for me, the global roots of humanism is something that I kept coming to my mind listening to that interview. I think I'm going to put it in episode one and I think that's it really speaks to one of the aims that we want with this podcast and in humanism. Now we're London based and we had Ross from Africa, given her gone in perspective in episode one, and I will continue that. And Professor Cameron's book is excellent at reminding us that humanism isn't and also shouldn't be perceived as, and we can't let it be perceived as, a Western European export, orientalism, colonialism. Of course they're all especially coming from the continent, and my family background and ethnic background that's certainly very prominent in our minds and we have to be careful of that. But we have to fight against that and make sure the stories and the contributions of the people that are relatively well known, like W E B Du Bois and Frederick Douglas has already said, but also people who within their own cultures, within Indian culture, the rationalist tradition, within the slave rebellion and black free thought culture, even the unsung heroes and heroines in those cultures need to be prominently taught, and so education has been a very important part of any movement.

AJ: 52:57

We had some really looking forward to Professor Cameron in dialogue with S I Martin, the event that we've got coming up and S I Martin gave us a talk at the London Humanist last year. I think it was on the history of black free thoughts in Britain and that's our own tradition and culture and history here, but it's not taught in schools at all and there are some amazing, inspiring stories of radicals, of just stubborn people who refuse to give in to an orthodoxy that was imposed upon them, and we have stories all over the world Arab humanists, who are an excellent follow on on socials, a BH, and humanists from Latin America, from Asia as well. So I think these, the global story of what humanism is, is something that I'd really like to push on this podcast, and I think Professor Cameron's interview was an excellent, an excellent, I think, launching off point for that.

Audrey Simmons: 53:56

And also like to just add what I liked about the course so was his Professor Cameron's treatment of women and their voice.

Audrey Simmons: 54:05

He gave he pays particular attention to the women's voice within the various movements and I think that you and I think women's voices are always relegated to, you know, way back in the corners, in the cheap seats, and I love the elevation that he has given the female voice, the, you know, the elevation of feminism, so highlighting the important and vital roles that they play throughout the various movements.

Audrey Simmons: 54:35

When we look at sort of Hanon Renaissance and come coming forward and even before that, he really does treat them with respect and kindness and really gives them the space to show what they, you know, their part.

Audrey Simmons: 54:50

And I actually felt quite warmed by that as well, to say that the woman's voice, not just in this kind of feminist, you know, be nice to us kind of way, but the seminal, important roles that they undertook and in challenging and they had to challenge not just the wider idea of feminine, of women's voices, but even within their own movements, even within the Black Panthers, their voices were, you know, trying to be quiet and they then had to then challenge that as well and he kind of sets that in the idea of communism, and why communism within the 20s and 30s was so appealing to Black Free thinkers at the time was because it was just. You know, it was the way when you're living in a country that is full of racism and that communism feels like, you know, an ideal space. And whatever we think of communism now, back at that time you know, russia was a completely or the US itself was a completely different space and was appealing, and I enjoyed the way that he treated this, the whole aspect of that.

James H: 55:58

He wanted to make sure he was shining a light on as diverse a range of voices and perhaps those stories that haven't been told as much and that certainly stood out. And I definitely think that conversation between Chris and Si Martin next week is probably going to be extremely frightening in terms of given both of their intellectual backgrounds and the areas that they research. I mean this this is going to be a huge collaboration to bring together the UK's story and what's happened in the US, so so very much looking forward to that.

Audrey Simmons: 56:34

And both of those I mean. When Professor Cameron came to a BH and asked us, you know, to put this thing together. And Si Martin was the first person who's also a very important part of Association of Black Humanists and in the interview he, professor Cameron, talks about, you know, professor Anthony Pinn again someone that we have had on an, a BH as well, and we really do try to get all those voices out there Looking at black humanism and humanism within, within the black community and all of the challenges that that being a black humanist brings. And thinking of Professor Pinn and, you know, humanist color blindness is not the answer. Again, that kind of highlights the challenges that we as humanists, as black humanists, can face within the humanist community and the kind of challenges that we still face.

Audrey Simmons: 57:31

So, again, it's not an, it's, you know, having all of these voices coming together and we are really grateful to Professor Cameron to come to a BH and supporting us in getting this, this whole thing, off the ground and see, and see LH for the part of it. But, you know, have I think our name is out there well enough for people to come forward to us now and know that we can offer a space for people to step forward. So again, you know a BH is, is is where it's happening to me. When I keep in contact with us. There'll be others that we hopefully will be able to put together in the future.

James H: 58:12

Thank you, thank you, audrey. Thank you, audrey. Now, we mentioned last week that we are hoping in this last section to answer any of your burning questions, and we did open our mail bag. So we've had a question in this week from Fadia in Cambridge and it's in relation to something you mentioned last week, aj, talking about what it means to be spiritual but not religious, or humanistic spirituality, and I was interested in hearing more about this and what it means to be spiritual to you and not religious. Is it just associated with mindfulness or is it something more?

AJ: 58:48

Yeah, so that this is a really core aspect of my kind of thought process, in my mental framework is this idea of spirituality and I think, humanists and other free thinkers and skeptics. There is an argument for us to try and reown or own or stake our ownership to that claim and not let it be exclusively in the realm of those of religious faith. And as we said last week in episode one, we have to be careful about terms here. And spirituality can be very close to spiritism or spiritualism, mediums and readings and trying to contact your, you know, grandma from beyond the grave, etc. And for me it's nothing to do with that. From my personal perspective it's as we mentioned a bit last week it's about looking beyond the outer. So we have the spirit of the law and then we have the letter of the law and the idea being the letter of the law is the very sort of superficial, a very primary initial reading or understanding of something. Looking beyond that, the spirit of something is what's actually inside and that can have many forms looking, not judging a book by its cover, not judging a moment by just sort of the outer aspects of it or what may happen in our lives good things, bad things, tragedies, crises, but also successes, trying not to be too carried away with the twos and froze of life but being, as you say, mindfulness is a big part of it. Being grateful, stopping to smell the roses.

AJ: 1:00:17

Alice Roberts has talked very much about this previous humanist UK president and prominent broadcaster, and there's a long, rich tradition of humanist atheists, agnostic, skeptics, talking to this need for humans from a scientific point of view. Evolutionarily we are mythical creatures in some sense. We like storytelling, we like creating narratives, we like describing, maybe in too much of an anthropomorphic way, imposing our values and concepts upon the natural world, and without taking it too seriously as in going and believing in the supernatural. But understanding it as a part of our psychology is, I think, really important. Now one may say why not just call it human psychology? Why call it spirituality? Again, I'm not too ready to the terms. Personally, I'm fine with calling it a humanistic spirituality. Indeed that's what we call it in one of the modules of our one life course that we teach, a C, l, h that we try and do yearly. That's an introduction to humanism.

AJ: 1:01:17

One of the modules that I teach is called an everyday humanistic spirituality and indeed Alice Roberts and any others have used that term as well, and many other figures like rabbint, and ask to go from the Indian tradition and globally, that that aspect has been recognized as a core aspect of human psychology, because that's part of our genetic endowment, that's part of the history of our species and I think to deny that it would be a shame. And the other part of it is it helps us better connect to people of religious faith, both from an interfaith dialogue perspective and to be part of the same society that we share. But also we can show, we can try and answer one of the points that Audrey raised before from her personal story, the accusations from others saying well, atheists and humanists, you're living a half life. You don't have a morality, you don't have a sense of awe, you don't have a sense of wonder. Where is your sort of, you know, sense of majesty and glory, that you're in this amazing world?

AJ: 1:02:14

And my answer to that would be you know, try watching Carl Sagan's cosmos, try reading, you know, stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time. There is enough wonder already. It just, in truth, is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to stick to possibilities, truth doesn't. So we don't know what we're going to discover.

AJ: 1:02:33

So all of these senses of how we give meaning to our lives and how we situate ourselves in this universe, to me is quite a you know, it gives me goosebumps in terms of what that perspective and that, for me, enriches my life and gives me a sense of perspective and a meaning and a motivation when life can sometimes get quite tough. So none of these, none of what I've laid out there, requires a belief in a supernatural or belief in a higher deity that's going to judge me for doing this or that act. So I think, for people who do want it and not everyone does there is an aspect of humanism that can serve you in the buffet of all of the different benefits that humanism can offer. Humanist spirituality is certainly there and I think it should be valued for what it is.

James H: 1:03:15

And what about you, audrey? Would you consider yourself a spiritual person?

Audrey Simmons: 1:03:18

The thing about it is, I think I've always looked at spirituality in terms of the traditional way and so I kind of rejected it. But listening to AJ there kind of gave me a different perspective and a different connection, and I suppose it's about the labeling for me. I think there was some word it's a bit like atheist some people get turned off by that word. So I think All of the things are things that you know, all the things that you described, aj, are things that I, you know, all wonder, you know, stopping to smell the roses are things that I consider to be part of humanism. I hadn't given it that spiritual label because of what spirituality means, and I suppose I would kind of think about if we're going to use that. I don't know, maybe it's just the labeling for me. I understand the context, I understand all of those things, but, yeah, maybe I need to explore it a little bit more and think about it in a slightly different way. So I thank you for giving me that explanation of it, because I've always just rejected spirituality, because I said to myself I didn't quite understand what it meant in the humanist context, because for me spirituality is the mediums. It is trying to contact granny, which is quite scary.

Audrey Simmons: 1:04:39

So I just kind of wanted to cut. So I think I need to kind of investigate it a little bit more and maybe consider it a little bit more, because I think it is important that we understand all aspects of human life and who we are as human beings and how we connect not only with each other, without communities, but with a wider world, and not in that practical. You know, we kind of think of logic and you know practicality and we have to be more external to ourselves to make that connection as well and the hope and possibilities and all the things that we can't touch and hold. So I think giving an understanding of that side of things is vital to us as human, as humanist and as human beings. So yeah, I'm open to this idea of humanist spirituality. I'll have a look, I'll have a think, I'll kind of ponder this whole idea and I might come back and let you know my thoughts.

James H: 1:05:41

Yeah, he's very convincing, isn't he?

AJ: 1:05:46

I should also say that there is a element of privilege here as well. I don't come from a religious background and that's very important to say. I've never belonged to a religious faith. I can consider myself quite privileged in that aspect because I have seen that my perspective is quite privileged compared to people who have had to associate what they see as a spirituality with family manipulation, with blackmail, with all kinds of trauma, so certainly that we all have our own particular blind spots and biases. So I tried to take an answer to that and that's why I said there's room at the humanist table for people of all backgrounds, in terms of their nationality and also their religious background. And so if there's certainly is plenty of room at the humanist table, the people who are very, very stern and strict with their terms and say no, I don't want to open the door in any way to any kind of reaching across the table to meet someone halfway and we'll come with our humanist spirituality and they can come with a religious spirituality and we'll see, sort of, where the common grounds are. We'll keep our differences, we'll keep our common grounds.

AJ: 1:06:48

Many humanists do reject that and they should feel free to reject it because that's their lived experience. That's what they're bringing to the humanist table, and I think it's important to be clear before any discussion how we're using the terms and why we're using them. As already mentioned there, sometimes we also overvalue A humanist who often accused of being too intellectual or too philosophical or too just very intense with our academic approach to things. And I think in some sense of spirituality and the reason why I and Alice Roberts and many other people have used that term is just a nod to the idea that we can live a fulfilling life and have fulfilling experiences without necessarily going through the rational mill where everything has to be logical, everything has to be sort of.

AJ: 1:07:34

There are aspects of life that do need to do that, like if you have a medical problem, you need to approach it in a very rational way, not in a spiritual sort of hope and pray for the best kind of way. But there are other aspects of life love, relationships, music being lost in creative expression. These don't need to be arrived at through an intellectual path or necessarily using our IQ. We can also use our emotional intelligence in other ways. So I think that variety is what I'd like to emphasize and leave the door open to. So I'm very glad that question was asked and hopefully we can explore this not just through my perspective but through other perspectives as well in future episodes.

James H: 1:08:18

Thank you, and if you would like to send us a question, we'll link to our email address in the show notes and we'll be setting up our social channels soon. Well, that's everything for today. Just leaves me to thank AJ and Audrey and you listener. Now to players out this week. We do have another event coming up. Next week. Our what's Humanism Means To Me meets monthly talk, where we're going to be joined by a panel of our members and also a special guest speaker, poet Alex Williams, and he's been kind enough to send us in advance one of his poems. So to players out here is Alex Williams.

Alex Williams: 1:09:03

In Earth, more wondrous than a hummingbird exists Nature's glory, floating sharp as sliver. Silver in a liquid air, purple dash, flash, blue of slicing vibration, mocking gravity drinking deep, the leaves of floral nectar, hidden from less specialized imbibers, bobbing wonder. Flit of beauty, pinnacle of process, evolutionary cousin of all life.