10. Comedian Lisa May on Comedy, Freethought & Challenging Authority

“If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.”
― George Bernard Shaw

This week on Humanism Now, Nicole and AJ join James to discuss the relationship between comedy, freethought and humanism. We discuss the role of comedy in challenging authority and changing social norms,  our personal comedy heroes and what should be off-limits to joke about?
 
Plus we're fortunate to present our interview with the incredibly talented London-based comedian, Lisa May. Lisa shares her personal transformation from entrepreneur to comedian and how curiosity, discomfort and connection, have shaped her outlook on life and laughter.

See Lisa May live alongside more top London standups at CLH's Xmas Party Comedy Night on 13 Dec 2023 - in aid of MacMillan Cancer Support.

Episode References:

• George Carlin - The Ten Commandments
• Eddie Izzard - Glorious
• Life Of Brian 1979 Debate
• Comedians in cars getting coffee

About Lisa May:
🔗 Lisa's Homepage
🎤 Standup Lols
📷 @standuplisamay
🐦 @standuplisamay

Lisa's references:

• Kintsugi - Japanese art of repair
• Jung and the value of humour
• The best of Mitch Hedberg

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”  -  Groucho Marx

Transcript

James H: 0:07

section where you find the music. Hello and welcome to episode 10 of Humanism, now a podcast from the central London humanists about anybody active or just curious about humanism. I'm your host, james, and this week we're going to be talking all about the relationship between comedy and free thought. Why are so many comics humanists, and should any topics be off-limit to comedy? All that plus, we'll have our guest interview with entrepreneur and stand-up comedian, lisa May. So to delve into these topics this week, I'm pleased to be joined by two of our regular panelists, nicole and AJ of Young Humanists and Leicester Humanists and Central London Humanists respectively. Nicole, welcome back. Since we're talking all about comedy this week, I was wondering what is your go-to TV show that you can rely on to always make you laugh?

Nicole S: 1:22

So mine is Peep Show. It's absolutely my favourite, probably TV show of all time, but particularly comedy. It had its 20 year anniversary of its first episode about a month ago, which is kind of amazing to me because it still feels so fresh, even the old series. It's just so funny and I love the exploration of kind of failure and bad people in comedy. I think it's quite. It's a lot of British comedy does that really well. It's kind of like really tragic figures kind of exploring why they are so awful to everybody in kind of understandable ways but you recognise they're horrible but you still kind of sympathise. But also it's just really funny. There's quite a lot of great comedy like that. But I could go on about for a while.

James H: 2:12

Yeah, thank you for making us all feel so old and telling us it's 20 years since Peep Show came out.

Nicole S: 2:17

No, isn't it awful. And it also had its first. The first night at Ed was the same night, the first episode of Little Britain, ed, which is a strange fact, right coincidence, one is aged better than the other, absolutely.

James H: 2:33

And, aj, good to have you back, good to see you again. Same question to you what's your go-to TV comedy show?

AJ: 2:42

Thanks, james, wonderful to be back and, yeah, great that we made it to 10. Next stop 100 episodes, I think, so looking forward to that. Thanks for guiding us through it. Yeah, comedy TV shows I would say I'm quite an America file, I think, with a lot of my popular culture despite never having lived there.

AJ: 3:01

So I would say Seinfeld or Curb, your Enthusiasm. I would say I love observational humour. I love things that kind of prick the ego or where people are like Larry Davis characters in Curb, where people are just quite bare bones about their eccentricities and weirdness and even though they know to do better, they would just sort of insist and blindly carry on anyway in the hope that somehow it will work or make the other person feel more awkward than they are themselves. And so I love all of that. And yeah, curb's been going for more than 10-11 season and it's still quite fresh. I think they're in the same vein, seinfeld and Curb kind of in different ways. Observational humour shows about nothing a real plot as such or character development or anything like that, but just, we just seen scenarios which I think will stay with you, so I'll go with that.

James H: 4:02

Yeah, there's definitely a theme of the tragic hero.

AJ: 4:07

Yeah, the one that he's always right, you know, everyone just understands him and he's the one that's kind of educating us about. We live in a society and I live in cities. You know, I've lived in cities my whole life. So being around so many people, just the hustle and bustle of going into a restaurant or you've gone for a big transport or at work, you have to kind of navigate all of these social cues and cultures, especially multicultural America, or you know the UK and there's a lot of scope for comedy there and I think through that, being able to laugh at each other and at ourselves can help, I guess, sort of feed a lot of humanist values about being tolerant and about being understanding and understanding that we all have weird parts about ourselves, so it's it's just about making sure that we can laugh about them and remain light-hearted and through that, find a way to love each other.

Nicole S: 4:57

I also love Seinfeld and it's that similar thing where, like, yeah, all the characters are kind of horrible people and who refuse to grow which is something great about that for comedic purposes, but not the lesson that we should take from it.

James H: 5:13

No, there's a theme to the characters that you like, nicole. Yeah, that's great. No, I'd say my go to if I was going to throw on just any random episode would be the US version of the office. That still delivers every time. I think I've watched it all the way through twice. It starts off slow, it starts off similar, I think, to, as you mentioned, that it's you know, very little happens. They just get put in uncomfortable situations. But they'd really develop all the characters over the course of the 10 seasons and the situations get more and more outrageous as well as you go. So, yeah, once you know the characters, you can just watch any episode and it still delivers.

Nicole S: 5:55

It's quite an interesting thing with the office because obviously it started as a almost carbon copy of the British Ricky Gervais, steven Merchant one and then morphed into a more American show and I think you know well. It's just very different. Actually I wouldn't say better or worse. It's a completely different show.

James H: 6:14

It becomes completely different and I think they're forced to develop other characters, which helps it's longevity. But that's great. Thank you for that. So I think, as AJ touched on there, there's a lot we can take as humanists from engaging and watching comedy, and it's interesting when you look through the list of humanist UK patrons, just how many comedians are listed on there and how many of them would identify as humanist. I think, even more particularly, stand-up comics from the last 20, 30 years were openly atheist or critical of religion in their routines. So we're curious, as we're promoting our Christmas comedy event, coming up to get your thoughts on why you think there is such a relationship between comedy and free thought. In particular, aj, what do you think that stems from?

AJ: 7:14

That's an excellent question. Thanks, james. Yeah, I've often talked about this myself. I've become a fan of comedians, particularly stand-up comedy, and, just being my philosophical self, I read autobiographies of comedians and try to sort of get into their mindset.

AJ: 7:29

And one concept there that I think could relate to this question is that comedy is a lot about deconstruction. So say, for example, a normal act you go up to a door, you open it and you walk through it. It's not very funny. But if you start breaking down each step, okay, so I'm going to walk up to the door, or what if I put my foot near the door and then the, I fall through a hole or the, or the plank in the in the floor falls through the floor panel, and then I go to reach up for the door handle and then it comes off, and then I have to try and find another way to open the door, and then you sort of you break up a simple action like that into its constituent steps and then you find comedy in the ways they can fail or in all of those. So that's a very simple example in everyday action. So if you take that same principle to believing in God or the philosophy of, you know, why do bad things happen to good people?

AJ: 8:19

So I think that kind of a mindset may naturally bring comedians or people who appreciate comedy in in that kind of a certain way. Of course there's different kinds of comedy who are naturally able to deconstruct ideas and question ideas in the way that they just look at, look at life and that's why they appreciate comedy. And I know that, for example, jerry Seinfeld I mentioned Seinfeld earlier and Larry David, many other comedians, steve Martin it's a universal about four comedians generally, but I think, specifically some of these comedians that I've looked into and understood because I've never done it myself I understand what's their mental thought process when they go, go through writing a bit and it's all about this, it's all about observation, questioning well, you know people do that all the time but actually how they thought what would happen if that one thing went wrong? And that's where the comedy comes in. It's sort of breaking those, those constituent parts down. So I think maybe that that could have something to do with then you can then start questioning some of the bigger ideas.

AJ: 9:19

That's one aspect of it. Another aspect maybe is that just the the futility of the human condition. We often don't know things as well as we thought we do. For everything that we find out, say in science, there's 10 more questions that spring out and there's kind of a hopeless tragedy and comedy in the in the fact that we can't get a grasp on love, relationships, you know, parents, money, all of these things that are often dating are often the subject of comedy routines. So because we're like kind of it's a slippery slope and it's a sycophous complex that we we seem to have, that's also, I think, a a right field for harvesting for a comedian. So I think all of these are adjacent concepts and ideas to humanism. I could have something to do with that, I think yeah, no, that's all really interesting.

Nicole S: 10:07

Aj, I definitely agree, particularly what you were talking about with the kind of futility of life has is already established.

Nicole S: 10:14

I think that's what I really like about comedy and the good sort of comedy, exploring those kind of yeah, the nothingness that makes up life and the lack of you know greater given meaning to our lives.

Nicole S: 10:29

Obviously it doesn't make it meaningless, as we know as humanists, but exploring that, those little things that just make up life and the little minutiae that is funny when you look at it in the through an absurd lens. I also think that a lot of comedians, a lot of people who are very into comedy, are big over thinkers and I think a lot of humanists can be as well. And again, I mean, that's what makes Seinfeld funny, I think, is just overthinking every single tiny little thing. But also it's it's where good jokes come from. In my opinion is kind of if you know a lot about something, whatever that thing is, if it's just sitting around doing nothing in cities, that's how you make funny jokes, and I think humanists tend to be you know they'll specialize whether that is. You know socializing in cities, if that's their speciality, if you know a lot about it. If you do a lot about it, you can have funny insights and funny observations about that definitely.

James H: 11:26

Yeah, I think there's definitely a similarity between approaches to comedy and being curious minded, in that the comedian is there really to just keep probing and keep asking questions, and it's a. It's a it's coming up with those unifying themes. What are the things that we all do every day, or that we all notice or that we all participate in, but perhaps we don't notice or we don't stop to question why do we do this? And I think that's why there is this link between or historically there was the link between being making fun of religion, because obviously that was, that was previously a unifying belief, perhaps practices for most people in the audience, and so there was a term, probably in the 90s I think, where suddenly comedians started to felt more comfortable that they could use that as a source for religion sorry, source for comedy and start to, you know, gently probe some of the, the norms that were there, and I think it's developed from there really. So it's it. I think it's a couple of things really, isn't it?

AJ: 12:31

it's the questioning, constant questioning, and also trying to find these unifying themes for everyone there's a rich tradition of going back even to colonial or feudal times in previous areas of human civilization.

AJ: 12:47

The court jester or the clown who's in the court next to the king or next to the ruler, will often be able to question things, quite radical ideas, or just sort of make fun of established authority it could be the bishops also in the courtroom or in the in the palace that then maybe a normal minister or a diplomat couldn't do so saying quite radical ideas in a comedic way, experimental way and experimental and links into science, experimenting with ideas, not sort of having to say something and then completely believe in it, so having to commit to something, but just like Plato said famously, life must be lived as play. And I think that's very, very true, because it's with playing around with ideas that we then understand, okay, what we're actually really, where's my identity, what am I comfortable with? And all of that leads into humanist free thought and, you know, ideas of liberation and freedom. So I think there's we need to hang on to comedy. It's very precious.

Nicole S: 13:45

I absolutely agree. I think that's a really good point and the fact that I think bringing those maybe radical, absurd ideas, even if people don't believe them, it's like it really helps us to rethink what we think and our actions and beliefs, even if it's positive, in an absurd way that you're not supposed to agree with that gesture or median. It's like, oh yeah, you think, oh, why do I believe this, actually is this ridiculous? So it's a gateway to research.

AJ: 14:14

Yes, as my ex-Muslim friends said, they tell us we have to expand, expand the floor of the cage, so allow for there to be more room for people to question things, and sometimes by saying quite radical things and you know they would argue, maybe even blasphemous things by by saying that they then allow more breathing space for people who aren't as radical, who aren't stand-up comedians at the edge of society at the fringes, to then have more space to question their own beliefs or have discussion in their own families or friends or communities.

James H: 14:41

So, yeah, they're important standard bearers, I think, as you say, nicole and it's an important method for questioning authority and in fact, I think it's quite interesting that lots of there are points that can be made through comedy that perhaps would be difficult to make in a more serious format, and sometimes it's a really it's a freer way to introduce potentially, as you say, radical or controversial topics, because if you frame it in the guise of a joke, then it just gets.

James H: 15:15

It's more of a light-hearted teasing, but it does get people thinking and I think that's also part of what's happening in comedy. Yes, it's light-hearted and relaxing and fun, but there is an element of getting people to think about topics that they wouldn't otherwise have questioned. I think there's perhaps another principle that's caught, a humanism that leads in here as well, when we talk about giving life meaning, and part of the definition is often that we believe that humans give, we give ourselves or we find our own meaning and we look to create meaning for others, and I think what better way to enjoy life than to laugh? There's an important contribution from comedy to just helping people to enjoy their lives and I wonder with that, were there any comedians or potentially shows, but particularly individuals, who first helped you realise that you could question or make fun of some of religious doctrine. Aj, is there anyone who stands out to you?

AJ: 16:24

I think quite easily, george Carlin. I grew up in an atheist family so I no longer belong to a religion and there was my household was quite a philosophical one. So there was always people intellectually hanging around visiting my dad or my grandad who didn't have that much respect for religion, to put it lightly. So those ideas weren't completely new to me but I already found that within my family. But seeing George Carlin in just the way that what he embodied in stand-up, the professionalism, the anger that he had, his oratory skills were just dazzling.

AJ: 17:02

And also being an American as well, because as I grew up and got more curious about this world superpower, this hegemon, I was talking with the idea that how can the American people be so blind, etc. Etc. And let this happen? And I sort of grew up and waking up around the time of the Iraq War.

AJ: 17:21

So that was my first foray into American culture and how particularly say John Stuart, george Carlin, other American comedians and late night talk show. That's what we're handling this and I was very inspired by especially the Daily Show and John Stuart as well as George Carlin, and he was a revelation in that you could see what he is a very intelligent, very conscientious America, who's using his morals, but also his comedy, to interact, to communicate with his fellow Americans and the public, which I found very inspirational from a humanistic point of view as a social activist, as I was growing up to be at that time, and also just being very funny in his observations and pointing out the ironies and pointing out the tragedies. He was angry but people were laughing, so I found that remarkable.

James H: 18:16

Yeah, carlin definitely stood out for me as well, but again, I came to him a bit later. I only really discovered him in retrospect, more recently, and I think it's important to remember the climate and the culture in which he was releasing so brave. Yeah, it was very brave, this was very new. He's probably the first to really certainly mainstream comic, to really go deep into religion in such a way, and I think. But he bought the audience along with him. Yes, it was still under a unifying message, it was under a compassionate message, even though, as you said, there was an anger there, because there's an excellent bit that we can probably link to, where he kind of rewrites the Ten Commandments to just basically be kind to each other. And it comes from that place of wanting to still bring people along in a unifying, positive message.

AJ: 19:15

And what he's saying will often be I listen to that and think, you know, actually he's talking about me and I do these, some of these things that he's talking about, maybe consumerism or things like that.

AJ: 19:24

You know, it's the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe that all of these things consumerism, materialism I was trying to also fight in my own life.

AJ: 19:30

But he had an excellent way of because that may, that may make some people in the audience feel self conscious or maybe be resistant towards him or have a hostility towards him or a business, but it didn't, and he had that magic way of okay, well, listen, actually, you and me, all of us, we're caught up in this thing. So let's not, you know, fight amongst each other, but let's just sort of laugh at and identify this sort of horrible toxicity that's in our society and realize that in a common humanity we can find a rise about this together, or at least that's how it sort of seemed to me. So, even though it just seemed like he was an angry, you know, village idiot or town crier standing up there and just everything was meticulously planned and you know it was written like all of his bits were again looking at his autobiography and documentaries about him. Firstly, firstly, intelligent guy emotionally, you know, had that emotional intelligence, that psychological understanding, as well as also just a great IQ and knowledge about the world as well.

James H: 20:27

Yeah, it was always from the perspective of we. This is something we all do, and I think it goes back to that point that was mentioned earlier. A lot of this it's not always about punching up and speaking truth to power. A lot of it is just finding the space to laugh at ourselves and notice the things that we all do that are absurd, or the norms that we all follow, and I think we create an atmosphere where people can be relaxed. To laugh at those things does create create the environment where they can question them as well. Nicole, anyone who stands out for you.

Nicole S: 21:00

So I didn't have the same experience of seeing anyone who was explicitly atheist or humanist or non religious as part of their comedic shtick.

Nicole S: 21:10

But I think what happened for me is that I would find people and comedians or comedic actors and that I really liked and then would find out that they usually were humanists and then, as soon as you see that thread coming along, it's more of a bit more subtle than you know, george Carl, and explicitly talking about religion. Obviously, one big example is Stephen Fry, who's obviously a massive humanist UK patron and talks a lot about humanism and his way into that, whereas I just remember watching him, really enjoying him. I mean, I might be wrong, I'm not an expert on him, but I don't think he does very much like comedic stand up about atheism in that sense, but it's just really liking his attitude to life and then looking and being like, oh, he's a humanist as a these 10 other comedians that I already liked. So again, it's like going back to what we said at the beginning. It's kind of that attitude to life that makes a lot of humanist comedians rather than any explicitly atheist themes in comedians that I found early on.

James H: 22:13

I think that's a really important point. Yeah, I think it's not that they have to be explicitly critical as well, that actually it's more about the their approach to these, these matters, and I've definitely had that experience as well of finding someone who I think is engaging, intelligent, thoughtful, wanting to find out more about them, and then discovering, oh actually they are a humanist, but they don't, you know, as you say, openly go out and preach or criticize, and there's a, there's a, there's a quiet power in that as well, I think. One more name I'd like to throw in, perhaps before we move on for me, that was was really important was Eddie Isard in the mid 90s, who had a completely different approach. It was more a case of taking some of the Bible stories. I particularly remember his, his routine about Noah's Ark and didn't really I don't think you could call it critical was more just creating imaginary scenarios of what might have happened through in his very absurdist, almost like Monty Python like manner, which I don't think anybody could have taken as an insult or criticism, because it was.

James H: 23:22

That was his approach to everything was just okay. Well, let's make this, let's make this story more absurd, let's make this more ridiculous by introducing the talking animals and putting God on a jet ski, that kind of thing. So, and again, it just relaxes people around dealing with these issues.

AJ: 23:45

You mentioned Monty Python. We'd be remiss to have a humanist podcast about comedy and not mention Monty Python. Life at Brian, the meaning of life, holy Grail those were again. I think they really speak to, apart from just exhibiting humanist ideas of skepticism and free thinking, the absurdist element of them, the surreal element, I think, speaks to a way that humanism can appeal to people without intellectual background, without the academic package. And what is the philosophical reason why you shouldn't believe in God? We're not. Okay. That's one reason. Here's also the absurd reason why you shouldn't believe in God. It's just surreal.

AJ: 24:24

And, as we said before, deconstructing those elements okay, jesus is in a manger and they're coming with gifts, but let's deconstruct that. What if they went to the wrong manger and it was going to go next door? Just like we said before about coming to open the door handle. The door handle falls off. That idea of okay, let's question the established narratives and find spaces in there where we can think of other things that could have happened and use our imagination and use our curiosity to insert and find moments of comedy or surrealism there. I think that's the core way that I think comedy and humor can combine together to create this recipe for enjoying life and extracting the most meaning out of life. So a hat to Monty Python, certainly from me.

James H: 25:11

Yeah, very good point. We shouldn't have a conversation about comedy or any of the comedians of shows we've mentioned without mentioning Monty Python. And I think that's another really interesting case, because I've heard interviews with some of the pythons that were recorded since, and it's not clear whether whether they were people of faith themselves I think some of them may well have been actually, and but their point was more to say. I think it was a quote where, potentially, palin is saying look, if we believe this guy came down from Earth with this really positive message, why have we spent the last 2000 years arguing about exactly what he said? And that was more what they were trying to get across again, not to not to be critical of the religion itself, but more to encourage people to behave a bit better.

AJ: 26:02

If people haven't seen it talking about Monty Python and interfacing with the religious discussion, and for us yet at the time there's an excellent talk show interview, late night talk to interview with Michael Palin and John Cleese and also a I think it was a bishop and then also another film critic maybe who was also that they're both Christian, and that discussion between the four of them really, really outlines, I think, how Monty Python and they're not trying to be funny, necessarily, but they end up being funny because the questions they're answering from the religious authority figures there on the panel in that talk show are just so absurd and they're trying to be empathetic, humanistic. They're not trying to poke fun because because the arguments that they're being put their big face with are how can you make fun of this religion which, provided you know Da Vinci and all this great art and creativity and provides comfort to so many people? And they think, of course we're not. We're not making fun of that at all. That's not the absurdist part.

AJ: 26:55

The absurdist part is the other things that we point out in it how we as humans have misinterpreted the message. We end up being our own. It's not as if Jesus our enemy, we're our own worst enemy or the worst parts of our nature. That's what we're making fun out of and you're kind of proving the point by taking the wrong interpretation of what we're saying and using that as a club to be to so that with. So they show a lot of humanistic empathy there, I think, while still being funny and comedic and not sort of completely bowing to the religious authority or bowing to public pressure or stigma. So I've got quite a memorable interview on YouTube, but I'd recommend our audience to go and give that a look if they've not seen it before.

Nicole S: 27:34

Yeah, I think it's a really good example I mean, you covered it really well, aj but of making it's making fun of the religion in a way, but it's not mocking the people who follow it or it's core tenancies. It's not, it's not cruel, it's like it's just absurd. And I think that's the core thing is joking about religion if your intentions are not to be mean, to like random religious people or just criticize for the sake of criticizing, rather to apply that just human absurdity to something that I think for a lot of us growing up, you know, religions is like absolutely sacred, it's all perfect, and watching something like the life of Brian, where everyone's like, you know, ridiculous but they're still in this religious garb, it was really entertaining and fun. I think I know I know quite a lot of Christians who like that film, you know, because it's not insulting, it's just funny.

James H: 28:23

Yeah, a lot of the jokes are really the idea of group think on dates. It's not about the message, it's about it's. It's the kind of cascading, the cascading effect of something gaining a lot of momentum and then suddenly everybody's, everybody's.

AJ: 28:41

You know the telephone game and miss hearing, misinterpreting things or having to add your own bits. If I'm spreading the gospel message, it wasn't quite good enough, so let me spice it up with something that didn't happen and then spread that down the line, and then it ends up being a miracle. You know he walked on water or he. You know converts in water and swine, but a human for it was. Yeah, I think that they expose us very well.

James H: 29:02

Do you think that religion as a topic for comedy is still quite as edgy or funny?

Nicole S: 29:09

Of course, yeah, so in a way. No, I think a lot of it is that I think you mentioned. Kind of since the 90s you know we're talking about Britain as one example we've become a lot less religious. A lot less people are raised with religion in a serious way. You know, you might get some quite like vague religiosity, but I rarely meet people my age who are very religious and have been raised very, very religious, and I think then it links back to that thing I said earlier about.

Nicole S: 29:41

The funniest jokes come from truly understanding and you know, again like we're talking about the life of Brian, if you've been raised with that religion and you now think it's absurd or has absurd elements, your jokes are going to be very funny because you get it and you get why it's absurd, whereas if you're just like coming at it from someone who was raised in atheists, never believed in God, and if you're just coming at this like yeah, isn't religion dumb?

Nicole S: 30:02

It's like, well, that's, it's not offensive, I mean I'm not offended, but there's a religious that might be offensive to some people but it's just not funny because it's not a very good insight. And I think as well, a lot of, a lot of the funniest jokes have been done in that way and what was once shocking? You know someone and we're talking about American comedy. I know that the word atheist there is still a lot more shocking than it is like in Britain, but the fact that people like George Carlin are so, you know, was and were so outspoken about that, it's kind of like that the shock factor of that not that's why he was doing it has kind of been done quite a lot, I think, now.

James H: 30:41

It's certainly been normalized a lot more and I think potentially through a lot of this culture, these views and opinions have been broadly accepted and they've helped to shift the cultural dial on a lot of these topics. So yeah, it doesn't have the same power. It's not like we've, we're critics. It's not really punching up criticizing authority anymore.

Nicole S: 31:03

Absolutely. It's just kind of because now, yeah, like I said, this country is very not religious and those who are religious are often not as strict as they were, you know, 50 years ago.

James H: 31:17

Hey, do you think, do you think potentially there's still a place for that type of comedy in other countries where perhaps religion still plays a bigger role in society?

AJ: 31:28

Yeah, it's such an interesting question with so many aspects to it. There's the UK aspect or Western US aspect, then there's also, you know, malaysia, for example, or Indonesia, and comedians there and how they handle that. I think let's start off in the in the Western sphere first. I think, yes, there's more, as, as you and Nicole have said, because religion has sort of lost that aura of you know, it's God's sovereign or representative on Earth and it's some kind of divine holy writ that it can't be touched, as it was maybe in the era when Marjie Python had that, you know, interview defending life of Brian in the UK. So it's lost that status a bit because of the Internet and more free thought and the education system and more secular cultures being more widespread. But on the other hand, I think when religion is becomes a detrined with identity, identity politics, the war on terror, the post-Iraq war era, you know again, when I become woke, you know I've started waking up as a conscientious individual. I was 11 when the Iraq war happened, the war on terror and what's happened since then and how, I'll say, for example, islam and Islamism and as well as many other religions, have identified themselves quite openly with not they weren't doing so before in the previous century, but now, especially since the 2003, 2001, 2003 era, because that's happened, then we maybe there's a bit more of a pushback in terms of if you criticize something that comes from religion, people then see that as a criticism of themselves, and it's very hard to again unless you're a genius that George Carlin and you know exactly how to navigate those waters, and not everyone can do that, and there's a reason why only there's only a few of them that we sort of would put on the Mount Rushmore of comedy for me George Carlin would be one of them. So many comedians are trying to do that and failing, and maybe they have to sort of avoid university campuses now, as many standard comedians do, or avoid certain topics because they realize it's more trouble than it's worth. So I think religion, yes, especially in the West, is still as funny, if not more funny, because of that loss of authority.

AJ: 33:40

But there are some potential landmines because of the politicization of it, and I think that's, then, a social justice and political project to make sure that these discussions are able to be had in a healthy way and that we don't have the hijacking of religious sacred cows by political projects who want to use religion and he wants to use people's feelings and people's sort of sense of dignity as a way to protect religious projects and religious, protect political projects, sorry and insulate them from criticism, from community criticism or from other political criticism. And I think sometimes that's done cynically but sometimes that's just done, you know, in a natural course of societal discourse. So I think that it's not like a law of nature that it can. You know, it's always going to be that way and we're never going to get it back. I think that has to be resisted and most keep, most importantly by members of those communities themselves.

AJ: 34:35

As Nicole said, within the religious communities there are people who want to stand up, especially in the younger generations, to stand up, for I am, I represent this religion, I have these beliefs. I'm not going to back down from that. But I am mature enough and our religion is strong enough to laugh at itself, to have a bit of humor, because we know that that's how we get healthy, friendly, loving communities to have a bit of that, rather than just being a cult or authoritarian community that has the dictates imposed where, like big brother, you can't, you know, you have to commit thought crime if you ever think of anything that could possibly be funny and undermined the religion. So I think there's it's. You know it's funny, there's comedy there, if we're willing to fight for it.

James H: 35:21

It's really important points. Aj, thanks for highlighting that and yeah, I definitely agree that it's a sign of strength in your convictions if you're willing to allow it to be gently mocked as well, nicole. Aj, thank you so much for that enlightening discussion. Now, as mentioned, central London Humanists will be hosting our Christmas party this year with some special guest standard comics from around London. One of them is Lisa May, and I'm delighted to say that Lisa joined me for an interview earlier this week.

Lucy Potter: 35:53

Hi, my name is Lucy Potter and I'm a researcher based at the University of Sheffield. I am currently conducting research on how asylum claims on the grounds of non religiosity, which can include apostasy and blasphemy, are handled by the UK government. I'm looking for refugees or people who are still seeking asylum on these grounds to take part in an interview with me on their experiences of the asylum system. This research is really important because there is no research on how non religious asylum claims are dealt with currently and not much is known about non religious persecution more widely. If you take part in this research, you will remain anonymous and unidentifiable, and I hope this research will make the asylum system inclusive of all belief systems, and I encourage anyone with experience to please contact me. My email is lpotter2 at sheffieldacuk. Thank you.

James H: 36:53

Lisa May is a stand-up comedian and humanist based in London. After working for 15 years in business and eventually growing and selling her own company, lisa had enough of being serious and signed up for a stand-up comedy course, and now she's performed more than 100 gigs, including At the Big Belly and the Comedy Store in London, and she regularly runs and emcees her own comedy night, stand Up Lolz. Lisa May, thank you for joining us on Humanism Now.

Lisa May: 37:21

Thank you so much for having me.

James H: 37:23

Pleasure, so you'll be joining us at our Christmas comedy gig in a couple of weeks. It's been great to meet so many local comics and also mostly they're also members of Humanist UK and fellow humanists as well. It'd be great to find out a little bit more about, I guess, what motivated you to make the transition into stand-up comedy, and a little bit more about your life and why you choose to identify as a humanist.

Lisa May: 37:53

Yeah, so I'm originally from Norway from Northern Norway in fact, so very north of the wall and I came to the UK in 1999 and I had quite a challenging upbringing. And I know that a lot of people are surprised by that being Norwegian, because you think this is where everything is. It's a socialist country with a lot of support from everywhere, you would think. But I had a challenging childhood. My mother was alcoholic and my dad was a fisherman. That was a way a lot. So, through a lot of responsibility in my childhood, I decided to move to the UK when I was 20, on my own three suitcases without wheels, by the way. This was 1999, and I moved to London to be in a pair to start with, which is quite common in the 90s and 90s. There were a lot of old pairs in London and I had started university but didn't really feel that it was the right thing for me.

James H: 39:10

Was that studying in the UK or in Norway?

Lisa May: 39:13

In Norway the university is free and so most people do go to university, but I have some learning disabilities, I'm dyslexic and I have ADHD or ADD actually. But doing the studies were always quite challenging for me and I think for a long time I thought I wasn't that smart, or I was told a lot that I wasn't that smart. And so I think through that, through my kind of childhood challenges and traumas and being told a lot that I couldn't do things, something really interesting happened and I think this is the start of what became my journey into business and then comedy. I really believe that if you don't have the kind of traditional support from people encouraging you, there is something interesting that doesn't always happen but definitely happened to me is that the self-belief it's not self-confident, it's very much like self-belief of what I thought I could do became very strong, like I knew that I didn't really need people to tell me that I could do something, because I'd never really had that. I developed that skill in myself and so when I decide things, I very much go I think I can do this, so I just start and I just do it, and I think that that kind of usual fear that isn't people failing. I didn't really have, mostly because I didn't have anything of any significance in terms of support or money. So for me it was more like, if I think I can, I will just do it, and that was the start for me.

Lisa May: 41:10

When I came to the UK, I was like, well, I don't have a degree, but I know I'm interested in a lot of things and that, although my mum was alcoholic, she was very much a thinker and a, I would say, quite philosophical and always helped me make my own mind up about everything, like including religion. When I was quite young, she sent us to Sunday school, although she was a humanist herself, but she thought it was really important for everyone to make their own minds up. So, although she was quite a challenging person, she taught me a lot about myself and trusting my own instincts and having critical thinking to any problem or any challenge and not be defeatist. Ironically enough, the person that taught me the most was the person that was probably the most broken, but I do think that's really so common in life. There is a saying that the blessed are the broken ones because they let in the light, and I do feel like that is very true.

James H: 42:35

Where is that saying from?

Lisa May: 42:38

I think they've been referred to as quite a few different people. Having said it, I can't quite remember what the author said, but it's similar saying, as I said, in a lot of different backgrounds. I think a lot of it also comes from Japan, if you have a slight obsession with Japan and Japanese culture. And they have this thing in Japan where something breaks and then they fix it with gold glue, because something that's broken is more special because of its brokenness.

James H: 43:18

Yes, you can turn its imperfections into something beautiful.

Lisa May: 43:20

Exactly.

James H: 43:22

And so it sounds like you've always sought out these opportunities that other people may find daunting or challenging. You seem to revel in that ability to dive straight in.

Lisa May: 43:39

Yes, I do think that for me I'm so interested in life and in experiencing and seeking knowledge and finding connections the only real way of doing that is to throw yourself in and give it a go.

James H: 43:58

And do you find that approach to curiosity and connections influences your approach to comedy?

Lisa May: 44:07

Oh, yes, for sure. Yes, it definitely does. Just the fact that I'm in comedy, most of my friends were quite shocked. In fact I have a whole joke about how shocked everyone was about me going into comedy because I had been very focused and very serious for a very long time. And it's that kind of thinking where a lot of people see you as one person or one type of personality and they get quite shocked if you adapt or you change. But I've always been quite funny. I think I've always appreciated humour in everything I do, so I don't think it's surprising.

James H: 44:56

And do you see a lot of transferable skills from your time as an entrepreneur or working in the corporate business world that you've been able to take to your stand-up comedy career?

Lisa May: 45:08

So when I first started stand-up, I thought I would have a lot of transferable skills because I did a lot of conference speaking. So I did. I spoke like my biggest audience was about 2000. And I thought, you know, if I can go in front of 2000 people, I can stand on the stage telling some jokes, but it is a very different thing. So it was surprising how not transferable those skills were. And, to be honest, I think comedy has really allowed me to get to know myself in a totally different way, because I couldn't rely on those skills, those skills that in business, you know, there are some skills that are transferable, of course, but there's a lot of business. It's about seeming like you are in control or that you know what you're doing, while comedy is very much about vulnerability and showing what you don't do well or stories about what happened that didn't turn out like you thought. So comedy has been such a great teacher of vulnerability for me.

James H: 46:21

Yeah, that's a fascinating way to look at it. So, would you say, you feel more or most a comedian is more themselves when they're presenting than a business person giving a talk.

Lisa May: 46:32

Yeah, I think it can be. I think comedy is just so hard. It's so because there are certain rules in comedy where you shouldn't punch down. So the status of who you are and what the audience is like it matters a lot. So you do kind of have to be self-deprecating. It's self-deprecating and you have to be willing to make fun of yourself, and that sometimes can be.

Lisa May: 47:12

I think a lot of comedians do too much of it and then if you repeat things all the time, that is kind of negative about yourself. I don't think that's very good for your mental health. In fact, I don't know whether you know this Australian comedian called what is she called? Hannah Gatsby, who did a show called Ninette, I think it's called, and that whole comedy special is about how she used the vulnerability of things that were traumatic in her life to make people laugh. But it can also come back to you and become quite toxic. Most comedians tell jokes. That maybe makes them feel a bit uncomfortable, or what they do because they want people to laugh. And that high of making people laugh it's such a draw.

James H: 48:16

And it diffuses any perceived authority that they have if they're willing to make fun of themselves, and it kind of relaxes the room, doesn't it as well?

Lisa May: 48:25

It does.

James H: 48:26

I agree it can be overdone. It almost looks self-indulgent if that's the sole subject.

Lisa May: 48:35

And I think before I started comedy I was actually supposed to. After selling my company, I was supposed to start a master's in applied neuroscience.

James H: 48:45

It's quite a shift.

Lisa May: 48:46

Yeah, it's quite a shift.

Lisa May: 48:48

That's probably why my friends were so talkative.

Lisa May: 48:53

My big interest field has always been psychology and especially neuroscience, and I actually was reading something this morning about I don't know whether you know Carl Jung, who was actually a humanist and his views and his thoughts is something that I found really fascinating, where it kind of it goes across a lot of different fields, not just psychology, but also physics and religion and thoughts that are, think, energetically connected.

Lisa May: 49:30

And I think the reason I kind of started I decided to do comedy instead of that degree was because I had never done anything just for me, like I'd been a very responsible person all my life. I'd taken care of my mother, my siblings, then I moved to London and then I had my oldest daughter when I was just 26. And so I then went to have a business to be responsible for like 50 people. So I think the comedy has been me reclaiming me as a person and through that I've learned a lot about who I am, and I've also learned a lot about psychology and groups together, because if you can make a whole room laugh, that have you know most audiences. They're very different types of people there and that could be a really powerful thing to bring people together and it's very addictive.

James H: 50:35

Yeah, I can imagine so, but also very unifying.

Lisa May: 50:39

Yes.

James H: 50:40

And so do you. What role do you see comedy playing in society today, especially with a view towards sensitive issues you mentioned? You know there's a sort of unwritten rule that you don't punch down, but do you think there is anything that should be off limits, and how respectful should we be to? You know different people.

Lisa May: 51:00

Yes, it's a very good question. Have a quote that I really like. That sums this up, and you're probably going to ask me who it was by, and I never remember. I just remember the words. I mean, I remember stories, not names, but the saying goes. The quote goes if you are going to tell someone the truth, make sure to make them laugh or they will kill you.

James H: 51:27

That's excellent.

Lisa May: 51:28

Yeah, and that's the thing is like with comedy is almost the last thing that is left where you really do have free speech and, if you can and I really do believe that you can change someone's view on off a topic If you can make them laugh about it. It is a and maybe this is why comedy so interested, interesting to me from a neuroscience and psychology point of view, because I believe that if you can unify people in laughing and you can teach them something, they will remember it. So there are loads of comedians that are very political or very, very focused on telling things that they really believe in and they have great impact and like, for example, the Ukrainian president used to be a comedian and you know there is a lot of truth that can be told through humor.

James H: 52:31

Yes, if you can wrap it up in as you say well meaning joke or bring someone along on the story and unite the room, there is that opportunity to at least influence change.

Lisa May: 52:44

Yes, for sure, but then you're right. There's also a lot. I see a lot of comedians telling jokes about topics that I do not think is okay.

James H: 52:56

What would be something you would consider off limits?

Lisa May: 53:00

Right, I don't think it's ever okay to make jokes about Ray or anti-Semitism or racism, sexism, anything like that. I just don't think it's okay and I don't think, as you know, there are people like Ricky Gervais who makes a lot of jokes about things that he makes jokes about to shock people and he kind of wraps up pretending that this will make us speak about it. No, you are just doing it to get the attention for it and I, like, as a humanist, I don't think you should ever say anything unless you mean it, and we can all have views that might be controversial, but you can still say that in a way that's respectful and not punching down. I think that's just. I really dislike that.

James H: 53:59

Yeah, I can definitely see that. I think, just I agree, there's a lot more comedians going for the shock effect. It's not necessarily going for finding the humour or finding that shared experience that you mentioned earlier.

Lisa May: 54:16

Yeah.

James H: 54:17

And bringing the room together. What advice would you have for anyone who might be considering a career change or at least trying their hand at stand-up comedy?

Lisa May: 54:31

So I would say go for it. Like it is the challenging industry because there's a lot of competition, but it's also very welcoming and friendly industry and there's a lot of opportunities out there. If you want to do startup company, I would recommend starting with a course, because that really gives you an opportunity to, in a group setting, work on jokes and then also usually you have a showcase and a performance at the end, and for me, that was the way that I went, and I know loads of comedians that just went on an open mic and started. I, for me, I think the best way is to do a course first, just even being told like you know, don't punch. You know what does it mean? Punching down? How does rhythm of how you speak matters? Or you know, there's a lot of things that goes into this Like you might only have like five or 10 minutes, but every word matters.

James H: 55:35

Yeah, I had a go and did a stand up course about five years ago now.

Lisa May: 55:40

Oh fun.

James H: 55:41

Sounds like a similar process. You know, eventually finished with a five minute set that was well vetted by the coach before you went on stage. It was a very welcoming and friendly crowd. So, you know, got a bit of a free pass, but I would yeah, I didn't stick with it, but I would almost recommend that for anybody who is potentially going to do any kind of public speaking or public facing role. Because of the some of the exercises that you mentioned, you know, one of which was just standing in front of the rest of the group and everybody had to, with no filter, tell you what their immediate perceptions of you were, just by how you looked and how your voice sounded. So you can know a bit more about how you come across to people. Which is a. Which is a can be very surprising, and it might not be. You may not want to hear it at first, but it's incredibly helpful to know how you come across.

Lisa May: 56:33

Yeah it is so fascinating. How, how, and, it's quite, is quite a rude awakening, but, but this just knowing how you come across will be useful in any business situation as well as as comedy, and so, yeah, that's that's. That is also a classic thing. A lot of people start off this set with like, I know what you're thinking, I look like this and that, or like.

Lisa May: 57:00

I bet it's. My accent is really funny because I'm Norwegian by Benifor Longwell so I always have to address that so they don't spend my entire set thinking about where the accent is from.

James H: 57:10

That's good. Yeah, deal with those, those questions that they might be doing. Yeah, and I think the other point that always stuck with me was on the writing side. Yeah, the coach will go through your script and effectively reduce it by 50 percent and delete any unnecessary word. So it really is. Every word is in service of a set up or a punch line, and that's a good practice to remember when you're writing in the business world as well, or in any in any way. You know, really Get to the point and don't waffle.

Lisa May: 57:41

Yes, yeah, for sure, and also how they help, how you end, like how many words to use for the punch line, or, you know, if you accidentally give away what the joke might be by giving too much information at the start, then the punch line is ruined. Yes, yeah, that's a really good point.

James H: 58:00

So how do you measure success in your comedy career and is there anything, any achievements so far, that stand out for you?

Lisa May: 58:09

This is a really good question. I have agonized over this. So I haven't been going like that long it's like 18 months or something and at the start I measured everything by whether people laughed. And I no longer do that Because people are so different. Not everyone laughs out loud and a lot of people will smile or nod and you could say that you know it's only really successful if people laugh out loud. But I don't. I don't think so anymore. I don't think so anymore.

Lisa May: 58:44

It is very much energy for me, like I will feel whether the energy was good and whether people enjoyed it. Like if I didn't get any laughs I would go home and cry. Probably the, the, the energy is more, more about the success and how it feels, and for me it's. It makes a big difference when there's a decent size audience. So if you know a lot of things in comedy, especially when you start with only like 10 other comedians in a pub and those gigs are hard, but so then when you start getting those bigger gigs and you have a decent size audience, like the comedy store I did only like two weeks ago, two or three weeks ago, and that was 400 people and it felt amazing and that was definitely a great highlight, because then you can really feel how how all your work is paid off, because with with a bigger audience, it does make a huge difference.

James H: 59:45

So a lot of it's on on the vibe, so on on how it feels after each show.

Lisa May: 59:49

It's like the same as going to a party, like if you go to a party, the way you have good time isn't by how many people laughed at it, or or like counting the people in the room.

Lisa May: 59:59

Yeah, yeah, it is all about the vibe of how you felt and whether you connected. And a lot of comedy is also connecting you, connecting with people and seeing their faces and seeing their eyes, and you know that's why comedy is so addictive. It's, you know, the connection through laughing. It is like an imprint of a good time, isn't it?

James H: 1:00:23

Yes, I think this is getting into your, your psychology training here, that joint experience of all laughing together. There must be something deep rooted within a phone.

Lisa May: 1:00:35

Yeah, yeah, and in terms of your career ahead.

James H: 1:00:38

What aspirations do you, do you have in your comedy career?

Lisa May: 1:00:44

So I don't have like a, I don't have like a big Like want to to be on TV or anything like that. I would love to be on live at the Apollo. I think that's every comedian's main objective is to get to the live at the Apollo. I also would really like to do a show at the Edinburgh Fringe and write, write a really well written show. That that is about something I care about, and I'm not really in comedy to tell jokes. I'm in comedy to tell my story in a way that will engage people and entertain people.

Lisa May: 1:01:25

So I don't like I did, I did lose of like. I got a lot of advice from people, advice from different experience comedians in the last six months in particular, and the thing I realized and and and these are really experienced, successful comedians but the thing I realized is I don't want to write jokes about what people think that they want to hear from me. I want to write about what I want to say and I want to make that funny. So that is like my main objective. But, yeah, yeah, I don't have like, I don't necessarily want to be famous comedian. I think it's more about connecting with people and doing in a different way than what I did when I was in business and and doing conferences, that's wonderful, yeah, and do you think it's important for us as humanists, nonreligious people, to laugh at ourselves and find a funny in our own views?

Lisa May: 1:02:26

Oh for sure, oh for sure, yeah, I think. Religion and religion and and thoughts of life and connection, and this is where most most great humour lies, and we, I think it's important Human experience to laugh at yourself and to to make fun of things you do.

James H: 1:02:56

Yeah, I'm hoping we're going to have plenty of that when we, when we gather for the Christmas party. I think I've laid down the challenge to you, to all of the acts, to try and find that, you know, find the funny in humanism, rather than poking fun at religion, which I think has been probably overdone by this point. Yes, yeah for sure.

Lisa May: 1:03:12

And, and and that's the thing, but I think the thing that I connect with the most with humanism is, for the thing that I know for sure is that humans need humans and we need to support and connect, and, and more now more than ever, having having an organisation like a humanist organisation is so important, because the communities that we had in history are eroding and and people are there less people that are religious and those people need a community and connection, maybe even more so, and I think that is like having people come together for with the same values is such a important part of life, absolutely yeah, there's finding positive ways to replace those those positive elements, for sure, and just a few quick fire questions before we go.

James H: 1:04:24

When you need to laugh, what's your most reliable resource? Either a comedy hero or just in your everyday life, what makes you laugh the most? Oh, so my comedy hero is very unusual.

Lisa May: 1:04:34

It's a Canadian comedian called Mitch Hedberg. He's, he's, I think. I think I've heard.

Lisa May: 1:04:40

Yeah, he was bigger than the 90s and 90s, I think he he he died quite quite young but it's all very silly observational humor that just makes me roll over laughing and I find for me like having a very good character. I think I've heard A lot of people laugh in and I find for me like having having conversations with friends about really silly things. Also, I am great at pranks. I love a prank and in fact there are loads of comedians all around London that have asked me to film their sets when they they perform and I've always pointed out look, I did work in tech for 15 years. Are you sure you're okay to have your phone with me? And they're like, haha, so funny. And then I always get into their phone. Change the order correct to from Lisa's. Every time they type Lisa, it changes it to goddess. So there are lots of people in London just calling everyone that's called Lisa goddess, I think.

James H: 1:05:46

Well, you'll have to change your name if more people are ended up calling you that. It goes too far. Thank you so much, Lisa. Just before we go, I usually will wrap up question. What's something that you've changed your mind on recently?

Lisa May: 1:05:59

Hmm, well, it's something I have changed my mind on recently. Wow, where did I? That is the hardest, hardest questions I've had. How do I change my mind about something, isn't it? I don't know, I do, weirdly. The funny thing is, my friends always say that the the most interesting thing about me is that I go into things really quickly and I will start executing. But I'm really good at changing my mind, so I might go for things that I want to do something and then I'll change my mind rather than rather than hesitate to execute.

James H: 1:06:46

So I think I'm just I'm so good at changing my mind all the time, but I can't think of one thing that makes sense, I think we probably are going to have to have another conversation sometime about the, the qualities and values of changing your mind, particularly in the business world, and how to pivot for sure. Lisa May, we're really looking forward to having you join us the Christmas party with the central London humanists and thank you so much for your time and joining us on humanism now.

Lisa May: 1:07:13

Thank you so much.

James H: 1:07:14

Welcome back to humanism now, and thank you very much again to Lisa May for joining us on this week's episode. Really fascinating person. She covered so many topics there. Aj, what, what did you take away from the interview?

AJ: 1:07:31

I can't wait to meet her. I she's going to be at the event on the 13th of December in London our Christmas party and stand up event for charity, so I'm going to be rushing to talk to her then. Having a neuroscience and neuropsychology background, being interested in stand up comedy, loving Japanese culture, she's a Japanophile just like me. So yeah, it was. It was a pleasure to listen to and I'm looking forward to discussing more with her and seeing what I can learn about these topics that we we both have in common and a shared passion for she. There was talking about her early life and sort of the scars that she carries with her, and also a comedy kind of experiments and failures. I was reminded of this quote I think it's from Hemingway, and that says he says the world breaks everyone and afterwards many are strong in the broken places. She also referred to Kintsugi I think that was the word she was searching for which is the Japanese art of broken pottery being mended using gold liqueur. So the scars and the way you know particular pots or a dish may be broken. That's kept in its remade designs you see the fault lines where it broke and actually becomes more valuable, not just because of the gold, but because of the particular pattern and the way that it broke. The dishes are actually smashed on the floor and then they're remade purposefully. The Kintsugi and the Hemingway quote really stuck with me and I think that she's.

AJ: 1:09:04

She's a fantastic, she seems to be a fantastic ambassador of the humanism you know, without meaning to be one officially, talking about how giving a very inspirational life lesson for people want to pursue something. She said the corporate world and she came back over the jump ship to comedy, very independent, you know, people telling you what to do from all sides and how do you decide where to go and how to pitch your own particular brand of comedy in a very, very crowded market. So all of these things were pricked up my ears, I guess. Coming to the comedy specifically, and the idea of not punching down and this kind of links to what we were saying in the first part of the episode, I agree with her, but I would disagree with her in one thing, in that she would seem to be quite firm in saying no, I definitely wouldn't joke about racism or abuse or you know sometimes these topics, and I think I can see why she's saying that. In principle I agree. I mean, it's not a fun thing to talk about, especially when people are suffering and they're innocent victims of some of the most horrible aspects of our society. But I think that can mean that end, that result, can be achieved in a different way, in a different perspective or a different stance, if we have.

AJ: 1:10:22

And the one that I like is the one that Johnny Carson, the famous American TV show host, said. He said that 80% of the job as a stand-up comedian is to get the audience to like you. You know, just be a nice person. If you do that, most of the job is done and then they'll be more likely, they're more relaxed and they're more likely to sort of give you a laugh. In some sense and Jerry Seinfeld speaks of almost like an assassin you have to get in, make them laugh and get out before they even realize that they laughed at something potentially that could be hurtful to them or as in like, maybe damaging to their ego, or like George Carlin giving them a moral lesson. But they laugh, you get them, you still the laugh and then you're on to the next topic, or then you know, bye, see you next time. So that aspect of almost having to surreptitiously navigate some people's, the audience's, sensitive spots and triggering topics.

AJ: 1:11:15

I think that is something to that. So I think, following Johnny Carson's advice, if there is a way to make a joke about racism while still being nice, then by all means try and find a way of doing it. And I think maybe some people, maybe Dave Chappelle in some of his moments, have found a way, but in the majority of cases there's no way of doing it. And I certainly can't do that because either I'm not a nice enough person or I'm not a clever enough comic. So yes, in our civilization there may be a handful of people again, I'm at Rushmore who possibly could do that, but if they fail that first test, if they try to do it and they end up not being a nice person, then they should.

AJ: 1:11:49

As a comedian, as a humble comedian and as a comedian who cares about making the audience laugh, they should avoid those topics. So I would agree with that end result that we shouldn't have jokes about rape or racism or whatever, but it's about how to approach it. In this way, in principle, where a humanist would believe in free speech, I don't think there should be a short of direct cause for incitement to violence or hatred. I don't think there should be arbitrary sort of pre-limits on free speech. So I think that applies to comedy, so being in sync with our humanist values. I would be a bit more open to free speech than Lisa was in how she describes it, but I would say the empathy aspect of humanism, being a nice person, that is good enough of a calibrated factor, that's good enough of a criteria as a guide to make sure that we don't end up insulting the audience or end up causing social unrest because of the topics that we cover. So I'm very grateful for raising these topics and I'm going to take that away from it, wouldn't I?

James H: 1:12:51

Yeah, I definitely agree. I was surprised by her quite firm stance on the topics that were not suitable for comedy only because I felt previously there's a kind of stock answer from comedians on this which is nothing should be off limits. There are just things that I personally wouldn't joke about, and so I was grateful for her being so upfront about that, and I think it is always good to know where to consider where people's limits are. But I definitely think there's a skill which, as you say, the top comics have, which is kind of working off the discomfort of the audience and creating, helping to relax the audience around what might be otherwise an uncomfortable topic, and that comes from building that trust and empathy, as you mentioned, and going I know this knowing the comic well enough or feeling like you can relate to them well enough to know I don't think this person has bad intentions. They're going to talk about this controversial topic, they're going to bring me along on this and there's a relief in being able to say, ok, the target of the.

AJ: 1:13:57

They are an ally. They're an ally.

James H: 1:13:59

Yeah, the target of the joke is not the vulnerable person, but they're able to play on things, and she did mention a couple of examples, I think, of comics who possibly have not, maybe thought they've got that level of trust, but actually I think it is difficult to come across that way and to maintain that skill. Nicole, what's your view? Should any subject be off limits for comedy?

Nicole S: 1:14:24

Yeah, I don't think it should at all. Like AJ said, I believe in absolute free speech as long as it's not incitement to hatred or violence. That's the sort of thing. And again, I certainly understand why certain comedians would be like I wear a joke about this, but I don't think it should be banned. I think it's really important for myriad of reasons, one being that if someone is telling actually genuinely hateful jokes, if they don't say them, then how can you start to dismantle those ideas? If someone that came to you and was like oh, I really like this really racist comedian or something, then you would be like, oh, is that coming from a place of hate or is that coming from? Oh, you just think this is funny to mock? And it's kind of getting those things out in the open. And again, free speech comes with also criticism. If someone does tell really racist jokes or something, then hopefully lots of people will be like, hey, that's actually really racist. And until they get that out, how can you start having these conversations?

Nicole S: 1:15:29

I also think a lot of comedy comes from what you shouldn't say, and it depends who the joke is against. But I think sometimes it's the shock of certain things is what's funny. But for me when I would stop finding funny it's what is the actual? Who is the punchline against and what is the punchline? And if it's like we're saying punching down, I personally don't think that's a nice thing to do, especially if the comedian is perceiving it. They're like, oh, I'm just joking about this, but it's like OK, but what are your audience going to be like? Oh yeah, I actually do hate insert group here.

Nicole S: 1:16:02

And I think that's the important thing that comedians should think about is, even if they're not attending it, if they're just I'm just joking, it's like OK, but how are people going to take it? And again, it comes from, I think, like I was saying earlier, the true understanding of something making a true funny joke. So, for example, I think I've mentioned on the podcast before my background is Jewish and you know there's a lot of. There's a really strong Jewish comedian tradition, including Jerry Seinfeld, who's been brought up a lot, and I've forgotten the guy Larity bit, larity bit.

AJ: 1:16:32

Larity bit.

Nicole S: 1:16:35

And so when Jewish people make jokes about themselves, obviously it's not racist. Firstly because it's themselves, but they understand themselves and Jewish people, so their jokes are coming from a place of understanding, so that's why they're funny, whereas if you had, like, an anti-Semite just making racist jokes, it's like, well, that's just racist.

James H: 1:16:54

Definitely. Yeah, I think it's. Also. It's a good point, it's a good sense check on where the population is with their moral standards as well. I mean, if we think about the, the, the working men's clubs comics of the 70s and perhaps into the 80s, where they were outright racist jokes, the audiences were laughing, you know, and they people wouldn't get away with those jokes. Now it's quite a simple test really that comedians have to do. They won't keep a joke in if the audiences aren't laughing at it. So if they, if they try, content that people don't agree with or they find uncomfortable, it's not going to persist. So I think when you see or you hear old jokes, it's not it's not just a reflection on the comedian and their own views, it's also a reflection of what was the population's kind of moral standards like at the time. So I think it shows that our own progress that certain things just just aren't comedians wouldn't even try to consider them, testing them out as funny anymore. And it's also a good point in terms of who makes the joke.

James H: 1:17:57

I went to go and see Trevor Noah a couple of nights ago and he does material about people of all different races and again that he is telling jokes that I think a white comedian almost certainly couldn't do, and so a lot of it is about the context. And again, he's been on TV, as you mentioned. He's. He's built up a reputation for a long time in fighting for, in championing good causes. He can do these things and he can bring the audience along with him, and that you know there's no malice there. So, yeah, I think who is saying it? What? Whether you can sense they have a deep level of understanding makes a big difference.

AJ: 1:18:38

I really recommend to listeners to check out comedians in cars gets in coffee, which is a series by Jerry Seinfeld on Netflix, and also his documentary I think it's maybe from the early 2000s called Comedian. That's also on Netflix. That's just a documentary movie, and I think both of these they gave me an insight into the workings of comedians, mindsets and when they're offstage. And because Jerry Seinfeld is a comedian himself, you know a legendary one, him talking to other comedians, and he talks to a wide range of them, including people from black minority backgrounds and also white comedians, young, old, and there is a unifying. What are the unifying threads in there? It's very interesting to see and I think we should bear that in mind before jumping to judge comedians. At least I've tried it, because I've never done it in my life, you see. So that you've tried it, james, I was very inspired that you have tried it, because I think stand up comedy is arguably the most difficult art form. You know, more than acting more in a sort of public speaking they say is that is the, is a worthwhile, and that people always have a fear of that. I think stand up comedy is even more than that. And so far, be it for me to judge someone like me, sir, because I think every comic has to find their own comfortable patch and what stories they want to tell and why they're coming to comedy, and that's certainly not unique and there's no one formula that fits everyone. But in terms of how they, the mechanics of how they approach getting material, and it's really important, as I said before, I think, to allow them to experiment, to workshop material. And now, because people have have devices that they can record on, and you can go viral from just trying to experiment on some material in a really, really small club and they build up those, as you say, that's a really key point. The community is a reflection of society. Unless they are just a really hateful person that Sam I made into comedy and they just want to spew hate, and they should be thought about quite quickly because they shouldn't be successful.

AJ: 1:20:30

The other ones who are, who really care about making people laugh it's that moment of Jerry sign, called cause it, the moment of weightlessness. That is just laughing. That's what they're addicted to, that's all. That's all they care about really, and Lisa said that herself and that remind me of that and that kind of shows that she's from the same. You know she's made out of the same thread and the same cloth as Jerry, many other comedians.

AJ: 1:20:51

So that's what the order after, and maybe audiences don't understand that there sometimes isn't a big agenda behind it. They just want to get to something in a pattern of words and sounds that makes people laugh at the end of, and whatever sounds funny they will try and grasp and experiment with, kind of like a monkey playing with sticks, jerry sign for, says, and until they find something that's funny. But sometimes they may stray into things that sort of okay, the audience isn't quite ready for that yet. And what jokes comedians say amongst themselves are different to what they say to their audiences. So they do have felt filters, they do have levels and they're very, very you know that's how they get their bills paid at the end of the day. So they're very, very sensitive towards that and we shouldn't. We should pay them the respect of, of allowing them to experiment certain words.

AJ: 1:21:34

But I can agree it's difficult now because of social media. You can get canceled or you can get even when a comedian is workshopping something in a small club and seeing how it plays. They need that because they need to judge that before they go and play at a you know, do a Netflix special or play at a massive stadium event. And if you don't allow for these spaces to exist, not only is that damaging comedy, but then that also has spillover effects into that's also how we learn. We learn by workshopping ideas and universities and discussion groups and philosophy groups and debating groups. If we don't allow these spaces to exist, then, okay, this may be just okay, we may lose some stand up comedians. But that same culture of stifling and, you know, chilling culture can have other repercussions in other aspects of our society, which I think is not in the humanist, you know, set of values at all.

James H: 1:22:23

Absolutely well said, aj, and thank you both for your time this week. Just before we go, is there any upcoming events with any of your groups that you'd like to mention? I know you're both very active with the young humanists. Anything planned around the Christmas season?

AJ: 1:22:41

No, not as such. We're planning our schedule for next year, but we are inviting more young humanists who are in the London area to come to the 30th of December the LH event, the stand up comedy event. It is a fundraiser for charity as well, so I think that will be good and we've got some partnerships that we've made with LSE and some other humanist students which we're hoping to build on for next year. But yeah, next week we just saw in the 30th of December event, in a few weeks time we're just going to be bringing a lot of London friends together and also people who can join us from outside of London and celebrating the year that's gone by and looking ahead to the year ahead, 2024. So that will be a headline event. But please do watch this space on young humanist socials for the next events that will be able to announce.

James H: 1:23:27

Great and Nicole, anything exciting happening with the Lester humanists.

Nicole S: 1:23:30

Yes, so I think I've mentioned this before, but on the 6th of December, which is a Wednesday, next Wednesday, we're doing a viewing party of the Blackham lecture, which this year is on ADHD, and I think that's something that a lot of humanists have professed an interest in and neurodivergence. So if anybody's around for that and in the Lester area, please feel free to come along. I think the details will be in the podcast.

James H: 1:24:01

We'll definitely share that, as well as details for our Central London Christmas comedy fundraiser. Please do come along and join us. It'd be great to meet more members and listeners at that event, and please do keep sending in your questions and feedback to humanizelive at gmailcom, and all that remains is to thank Nicole.

Lucy Potter: 1:24:24

Thank you.

James H: 1:24:26

Thank you, aj. Good to see you again, pleasure Thanks, James, and thank you for tuning in and joining us on Humanism Now.