A Camera Operator

Framing a scene to draw in the audience, dealing with screaming directors, and getting lost in an actor's performance with Pauline Edwards, a camera operator. What's it like filming a reality TV show? And what's a "swingle"?

Got a comment or suggestion for us? You can reach us via email at jobs@whatitslike.com

Want to be on the show? Leave a message on our voice mailbox at (919) 213-0456. We’ll ask you to answer two questions:

1. What do people think your job is like and what is it actually like?
2. What’s a word or phrase that only someone from your profession would be likely to know and what does it mean?

Transcript

Dan Heath: If Pauline Edwards does her job right, you probably won't notice her work at all. She says a good camera operator's work-

Pauline Edwards: ...is invisible. You know, like you're not saying, "Ooh, that camera move is awesome." You know, you're just so into the story that you don't notice the operating at all.

Dan Heath: In television and film production, there's a role called camera operator. Their job is to run the cameras. They literally frame what you see on-screen with guidance from the director and the director of photography. And it's not just about what's in the frame, it's about what shouldn't be in the frame. Like if a sound person has the boom mic too low and it's visible, the camera operator is the one to call that out, but they have to be a little judicious. How often do you have to kind of pause the action, or you know, speak up and say, "Hey, I think we should take that again." Is that rare, or does it happen almost every day?

Pauline Edwards: I try not to pause that, you know what I mean? It's like you don't wanna be like, "Hey, I felt a bump," or, you know what I mean?

Dan Heath: Hey, George Clooney, stop what you're doing and, yeah-

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, or someone is pouring their heart out and they're crying, you're like, "Stop," you know, I-

Dan Heath: This isn't working.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, like I, you know, I felt a breeze or, you know what I mean?

Dan Heath: I'm Dan Heath and this is "What It's Like To Be." In every episode, we walk in the shoes of somebody from a different profession, a hairstylist, a welder, a criminal defense attorney. We wanna know what do they do all day at work. Today, we'll be talking with Pauline Edwards about what it's like to be a camera operator. We'll learn the ins and outs of working on a reality TV show, whether there are as many egomaniacs in Hollywood as we'd think, and what's the trickiest move for a camera operator to make? Stay with us.

- Hey, I'm Zachary Crockett, host of a podcast called "The Economics of Everyday Things." Each week, we zero in on one thing and ask, "What's the deal with that?" Things like used hotel soaps, the song "My Sharona," or weirder yet, I mean, how many times do you get to meet the world's foremost expert on dinosaur vomit? It's truly an honor. Check out "The Economics of Everyday Things." It's from the Freakonomics Radio Network.

Dan Heath: Near the beginning of my conversation with Pauline, we hit some technical issues with the recording, which actually made her feel right at home.

Pauline Edwards: This is exactly what happens on set.

Dan Heath: We're getting a taste of life, aren't we?

Pauline Edwards: I'm getting, I feel like I'm on set right now. This happen. It happens all the time. You can prepare as much as you want, and then something will go wrong. And then when it goes wrong, then you're like, everybody's looking at you like, "Is it working yet?" And you're like trying to like figure it out on the fly, you know what I mean? Because then now everybody's, we have the actors there. You're like, "Oh, no, this was working like two seconds ago." And then actors shows up and you're like, it's not working now.

Dan Heath: I mean, honestly, like I visited an Indie film set years ago, and it was just astonishing how much time was spent with like a bunch of people just standing around and then like some small set of people solving some problem that had just popped up with a light or something with the set, or is that what it's like?

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, the people at work all the time are able to solve problems quickly. You know what I'm saying? Like, something is always gonna happen, and you have to be able to solve that problem. And that really comes with experience. Because if I'm working on a show with a camera and the camera stops working, and that's never happened to me before, then I'm just gonna be frazzled. You know what I mean?

Dan Heath: Mm-hmm.

Pauline Edwards: But if it's happened before, then you kind of know how to handle that situation. And you know, you are like, "Oh, this happened to me on my last show." Let me, you know, and then you look like the hero because you've just solved that problem super fast.

Dan Heath: So on a set, that director of photography or DP is the head of everything to do with cameras, among other things. And then you have the camera operators like Pauline and the first AC, first assistant camera who keeps the camera in focus, and there's a second AC who's in charge of the slate. That's the black-and-white handheld board with the little hinged piece on top that you clap down.

Pauline Edwards: And then you have the loader. And now, most of the time, people are kind of working with digital cameras now, but people still work with film cameras. And I used to be a loader, and when you're a loader, you're basically, you're loading film, it's still called a loader, but now you're working with digital media, but the name still stuck. Most of the time, the loader is the person that's in charge of everything you shot and your inventory and stuff like that.

Dan Heath: It's just absolutely stunning how much specialization there is in Hollywood. I guess anybody who's ever watched the credit sequence to a, you know, a blockbuster movie, can appreciate just, I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and, I mean, there's somebody called a loader, you know?

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, you get used to it as you go along, but there's so many loaders and, you know, second ACs and then best boys and key grips and, yeah. Yeah, there's so many names for everybody like hammers and it's a lot to keeping your head at all times, you know?

Dan Heath: Are you typically using a handheld camera or something on a tripod?

Pauline Edwards: That kind of depends on the show. When I work in unscripted, like in reality, I'm almost 100% handheld.

Dan Heath: Because you've gotta be able to just go with the flow.

Pauline Edwards: Correct, but there's times where you're on sticks at this, you know-

Dan Heath: Sticks is, what is that tripod?

Pauline Edwards: Sticks is a tripod, yeah.

Dan Heath: Okay.

Pauline Edwards: So, sometimes you're on sticks, sometimes you're on a ped, which is a, like a pedestal camera. And those are mostly stage shows, like if you're doing a talk show or if you're doing a game show.

Dan Heath: Hmm, those are like the big ones that are on wheels that you see.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dan Heath: Okay, okay.

Pauline Edwards: And then on scripted shows, you might be on a dolly a lot more, or a techno crane, which is like a telescoping arm that can either go super high up or low, or can push in pretty far. And then you remotely operate that.

Dan Heath: The camera operator is the audience's eye, and occasionally, the audience sees something they shouldn't, for example...

Pauline Edwards: "Game of Thrones," with the whole thing about the coffee cup.

Dan Heath: Oh, yeah, the Starbucks thing. Yeah.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, yeah. So like, if you're watching that in a movie theater, you don't have time to park. You could just be like, "Did I see?" But now it's like everybody can dissect.

Dan Heath: There's a billion people on the internet with too much time on their hands.

Pauline Edwards: Exactly, they're breaking down everything. So it's like, oh, my God.

Dan Heath: And so would that like, just to run with that case, like, would that have been on your conscience as a camera operator? If you were behind that shot?

Pauline Edwards: For sure. Yeah.

Dan Heath: Okay. Yeah, because you're kind of like the last line of defense in some ways.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of things that can, it might be like you're getting ready to shoot, or you've shot that scene, and then they're like, "Keep rolling, we're gonna go again." But then everybody runs in, you know, like the assistants and people are fixing the hair and people are making a wardrobe right. And maybe someone gives that person a coffee cup and they're drinking it, and then they're just, "Oh, let me put it like behind my chair." 'Cause they did, you know what I mean? And you're looking to see, you're scanning the whole frame for like, did someone move a light? Did someone, you know, move a chair? Like, is this exactly where it was? Is, you know, is the, so you are looking at so many things that when, and sometimes, you can't see because there's so many people in front of the camera that you can't see what's going on in the frame. And then when they're like, "All right, everybody, get outta there." And then it's like, everybody vanishes and then they're like, "Roll." And you're like, "Oh, there's a cup."

Dan Heath: Mm. I watched this Vanity Fair video about a camera operator moves, and it was like they were taking the same scene and they were showing here's what the scene would be like if you just locked off the camera and pressed record and didn't do anything. And then, here's what the scene feels like when you start, you know, moving a little bit, coming close to the actors, changing the perspective. So sometimes you're shooting up, sometimes you're shooting down. And it just blew me away. Because I think a lot of what we as, or at least speaking for myself as a naive viewer, a lot of what I'm feeling as tension or emotion in the scene is heavily dependent on the way the camera's moving, that I may not even be aware of.

Pauline Edwards: Right, right.

Dan Heath: How would you explain the importance of camera work to like somebody who's never thought about that?

Pauline Edwards: I think to lock in with an actor is like an amazing experience. You know, it's like if they're getting emotional that you just, you are drawn to them. So you end up moving, even if you weren't supposed to, originally, you might end up just pushing in a little bit. You might pushing in to get closer to their eyes to catch the emotion of that.

Dan Heath: Do you ever lose focus on your work because you're caught up in a scene?

Pauline Edwards: There's performances where I am crying, you know what I mean? It's just like because it's such a strong performance sometimes, or you're laughing or you're just trying not to laugh when they're telling a joke. Because if you laugh then you're shaking the camera. So you're trying to hold all that in because, you know, crying is, you know, I'm an emotional person. I cry over, you know, like Hallmark commercials. So- It's easy to get wrapped up and that, I love that though. I love that part of it. When I'm not thinking about, I don't wanna think about the camera when I'm shooting a scene. I don't want to think about that at all. I wanna be connected to what's happening in the frame.

Dan Heath: That's interesting, I wouldn't have guessed that, that it's almost like you're trying to stay focused on the work and the camera as a tool, but the less you think about it, maybe the better.

Pauline Edwards: Oh, yeah, and that kind of goes with, I mean, it just flows better if I'm not worried about how we are moving or if we're moving in the wrong direction or, you know what I mean? Like, I'm walking and I'm like, "Oh, I gotta make sure that I don't fall down these steps." You know, if I have someone that I trust that is spotting me when I'm walking, I don't have to worry about if I'm gonna fall down these steps 'cause I have-

Dan Heath: Wait, so there're walker-spotters too?

Pauline Edwards: Sometimes, like in scripted TV, there's usually someone always spotting you. They wanna make sure you're safe. There's times I have to walk down steps and there was one shot where I was so nervous about walking down these steps and I didn't have my usual dolly grip with me who, you know, you're working with some people for months, you know, or you work with that person on different shows, so you've built up a trust. And so one time, my guy wasn't there and it was like a different person. And it, you know, for me to walk down these steps, even though he was there, it took a while for me to trust him that I wouldn't fall with this camera.

Dan Heath: Pauline made the transition from camera assistant to camera operator on the reality TV show, "America's Next Top Model," Reality TV is what you would call unscripted TV, there's no script, even though some of the situations, and it might seem a little contrived. She spent long hours with a camera on her shoulder waiting for something to happen.

Pauline Edwards: We're always shooting sometime because you never know what's gonna happen. So, you know, you could be shooting someone sleeping and you don't think that this is gonna make it. And then all of a sudden, someone runs in, and they're yelling at that person that's sleeping and you're like, "Oh, this wait, this is turning into something," you know? So you always kind of have to be ready. You have to anticipate. You know, I worked on a show in Mississippi, it was called "Bring It," it was a... That was one of my main camera operating shows. It was a dance team. And we followed their coach and their coach had to deal with the parents. They had to deal with other coaches and arguments between teams. And this coach was very volatile. And so my job was to follow her around everywhere.

Dan Heath: And while Pauline is filming, an audio mixer pipes audio into her headphones and might actually help her decide what to film just by feeding her certain conversations,

Pauline Edwards: I have a headphone that's attached to the camera and the audio mixer is feeding me audio from different people that are talking, and he might determine what he thinks is a good story and he'll basically, turn me in that direction. So if like people are talking over to the left in the kitchen, or people are talking over here to the right by a car, he'll determine which conversation that he feels is a bigger story and he'll turn that conversation up and then I'll be like, "Oh, wait, what's going on over there? And then I'll pick up the camera and, you know, go over. So you're working as a team.

Dan Heath: Other members of a Reality TV show team are producers who will sometimes try to stir the pot if things get slow.

Pauline Edwards: One time, they came back into their room after a performance and their room was all messed up and you're like, "Wait, what's going on here?" And then she's upset. So she goes to confront the other team and the other team is like, "Wait, we didn't do that." And then there's all this back and forth. And then it, you know, it turned out that, you know, our producer kind of got that started, you know, 'cause he wanted some story to cover up. The producer, like messed up the room.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah. And then, so that kind of got things going because there's always a new producer they're always trying to find on that show. They're always trying to find something to kind of spark a situation, you know what I mean? Maybe nudge it in a direction, but he kind of nudged it way too far. And it's not all the time where they set things up like that, but just when you're putting together a cast that kind of works with casting, you know who your cast is. So you might have someone that likes peanuts and then you have someone that doesn't like peanuts and you know what I mean? And you put all these people in a room and then in the beginning everyone's getting along, but then at the end, it's like, "Wait, I hate peanuts, and you know, you put peanuts in my this." And so it's always something that's gonna spark the conversation. But you know, there's a lot of shows that are not heavy-handed in production like that.

Dan Heath: Hey, everybody, Dan here. We want to try something new. Do you want to help us come up with questions for a future guest? We're recording an interview soon with a luxury interior designer. What do you wanna know? Tell us your questions. Send them to jobs@whatitslike.com. Obviously, I can't promise we'll use all of them. Usually, the conversation ends up going in some unpredictable direction, but I think it'll be fun to try this experiment. So send in those questions by September 16th. Jobs@whatitslike.com. If you're listening to this episode after that date, you'll have to find your own interior designer to question. Now, back to the show. 

Dan Heath: Is it ever awkward for you to be kind of standing by filming people who are fighting or crying or throwing things at each other?

Pauline Edwards: I mean, for me, you just get caught up in it. The one time, I think it was awkward was when I followed a cast member. They went into the bathroom with another cast member to talk. And so I followed them in there and she said she didn't want me in there. They were in the bathroom, and I'm like, you know, "Sorry, you two are talking," you know what I mean? It's like-

Dan Heath: This is my job.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, "You don't get to dictate to me where I go to do my job. So we are filming a show here, so if you," because they'll go somewhere to try and get away from you, you know? And they'll find like, little plural, "We're gonna go to the bathroom." And it's like, "Nope, I'm coming with you," you know?

Dan Heath: I'm coming right in there.

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, yeah, and you can't let them dictate where you're gonna go or how you do your job.

Dan Heath: It seems like non-scripted would be just so much more difficult for a camera operator because it's all improvisational and you're moving and it's handheld most of the time. Is that accurate or are there nuances to scripted that make it really difficult as well.

Pauline Edwards: I wouldn't say it's easier or harder. What I would say with unscripted is if we're handheld, we're handheld for a lot longer than we would be. So that part of the job is physically more demanding.

Dan Heath: I asked Pauline about the A-hole factor in Hollywood, which I'm sure we've all heard stories about. I wondered if she'd encountered her share of egomaniacs or divas over the years.

Pauline Edwards: There's some directors that are screamers.

Dan Heath: Mm.

Pauline Edwards: And I think early in my career, it was hard to, because you're, you know, everybody's trying to do, no one comes to work and they're like, "I can't wait to mess up today." You know, so it's, you come to work and you're trying your best and you have someone screaming at you. And in the whole scheme of things, it's really not that serious. We're making a TV show. And so, it would be nice if people could keep their emotions in check, but then there are screamers and they're yelling at you and you're not getting the shot they want you to get. And you are getting even more flustered because they're screaming. You know, there's times where I've left sad and cried, and you know, other camera operators or you know, even when I was a camera assistant, like there's other, you know, camera assistants that will pull me in a room and just kind of pep talk you and try and prop you back up and kick you back in there.

Dan Heath: One of the shows she's proudest of was one that she initially struggled on. It was called "Snowfall." It was a crime drama on FX that started in 2017 and ran until 2023.

Pauline Edwards: It was my first drama, you know, and all of a sudden, it was just hard for me to figure out when to discuss things with the actors. Like everything just seemed to be moving super fast. And that all translated into the way I was shooting. I was apprehensive on what I should shoot. And it just kind of showed, I just wasn't, the energy wasn't right and I just hated it and not hated being on the show, just hated the way I couldn't grasp it. And why all of a sudden was something that wasn't as hard before. All of a sudden, now it's very difficult. I'm having difficulty communicating with my dolly grip. I'm having to, you know what I mean? I'm just having difficulty with everything. And also, I didn't know how to use the wheels when they were doing anything remote. And I, you know, I was afraid of it. I was just kind run away from, you know, the opportunities would come up and I'm like, "Nope, nope, I don't wanna do," 'cause I was afraid to fail and I was also afraid to fail for any other female camera operator that came behind me.

Dan Heath: Mm-hmm.

Pauline Edwards: I was just like, "Oh, I'm messing it up for that." You know, I'm messing it up for all Black people. I'm messing, it was just all this weight was on my head and I just had so much going on in my brain that I couldn't focus on what was in the eyepiece.

Dan Heath: Pauline said that weirdly, it was the COVID era that helped her bounce back. She got involved with this group of camera operators who met on Zoom.

Pauline Edwards: It was a horrible time, but at that time, no one was working. So you had access to all of these camera operators that are at the top of their game. And they did like a Zoom where you could talk to other camera operators and you could listen to other camera operators. And I got a mentor and I was just able to talk everything out and learn how to use different equipment. And it was just such a time where you could really just breathe. And so, when we came back from COVID, I had a different perspective and things slowed down a little bit for me and I was able to handle situations better and I was able to focus more on just what was in my frame and not all the noise going around around me.

Dan Heath: So, Pauline, we always have a lightning round of questions on the show. Let me pepper you with some questions here. What is a word or phrase that only someone from your profession would be likely to know and what does it mean?

Pauline Edwards: I would say the wheels. If I told a random person to gimme the wheels, they probably come back with maybe a bike wheel or something like that. And it's, say, a camera head and a head is something that you put the camera on when it's on a tripod.

Dan Heath: Okay.

Pauline Edwards: So a regular head that the camera's sitting on, you have a panhandle and you can pan it left or right or up and down to follow the action. Right?

Dan Heath: Mm-hmm.

Pauline Edwards: Wheels, there's two wheels. There's one on the back and that controls the tilt up and down. And then there's one on the left side. And that can controls the pan left or right, and then your hands work together. So your hands are doing two separate things at the same time.

Dan Heath: Oh.

Pauline Edwards: To pan and tilt the camera, kind of the way I would say is like if you're driving a car and one hand is if you're driving like a manual car and one hand is doing the stick and the other hand is doing the steering wheel or like a etch of sketch where like one, you know what I mean, like-

Dan Heath: Oh, that's a great analogy, yeah.

Pauline Edwards: Your hands are doing different things to try and make an image.

Dan Heath: What's the most insulting thing you could say about a camera operator's work?

Pauline Edwards: Ugh, if someone thought that a shot was just so easy, you know what I mean, like-

Dan Heath: Mm.

Pauline Edwards: They didn't, I don't know, I guess to maybe just take for granted the amount of work that goes into operating a camera,

Dan Heath: They think it's easier, you know, well, don't you just have to turn it on?

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, they think it's easier. A lot of times, I will put a camera on a person's shoulder, like a producer, you know, or a director. You know, I'll put a camera on their shoulder quickly. Especially if they're like, "Oh, no, shoot the paint dry." And you're like, "Hey, let me put this 40-pound camera on your shoulder and then-"

Dan Heath: You stand there for eight hours.

Pauline Edwards: You know, there's so much. So you have to make sure that you're keeping it level so you don't want it to be crooked and you're here, you have to make sure that it's in focus. You have to make sure that the iris is where you need it to be. You have to make sure that if you're following someone inside that you change the filter. If they run outside, you have to zoom, you have to think about composition. So there's so much that goes into it that when people are just like, "No, just keep shooting." You're like, "Well, you know," or if you don't have something to sit down on and they're sitting, you know, you maybe you're on your knees. It's just so much that goes into it.

Dan Heath: What phrase or sentence strikes fear in the heart of a camera operator?

Pauline Edwards: I think everybody has their own thing. For me, I would say it's the swingle, which is, so you have a single on someone, which is a shot kind of, I would say from maybe the chest up to their head. You have a shot of them and they're talking and then they want you to pan over to the other person talking in the scene.

Dan Heath: And you called that a "swingle".

Pauline Edwards: Yeah, a "swingle".

Dan Heath: That's a great word.

Pauline Edwards: Because you're swinging from one single to the other single. So they call it a "swingle". I always get nervous when it's something like that, even though I've read the script a couple times and then, you know, you have the sides and you're kind of trying to familiarize yourself with when is a good time to go from this person to that person, or you've done that shot and you've got it, you're like, "Oh, I panned from this person to this person and it was perfect," and then they'll say, "Okay, now let's go, let's do the like basically, not in reverse, but like, I have person one, actor one saying this line, now I need the reaction or something of actor two." So now I'm kind of going the opposite of what I just shot. And that always kind of makes me a little nervous.

Dan Heath: What is it about this work that you love?

Pauline Edwards: I love telling a story. I love everything about my job. I love being around the action, the actors, the crew. I love movies. I'm always watching a movie or a TV show, 'cause those are super-cinematic now. TV shows are like movies. I just love anything where you're telling a story. I love to lose myself in a story. Any story.

Dan Heath: Does your work change the way that you watch TV and movies?

Pauline Edwards: Sometimes if the movie loses my attention, then I'll start looking for, you know what I mean? Then I'll be like, "Ah," you know, I notice like, then you're not into the story as much and then now you're picking apart any little thing that you see, you know? But for the most part, there's so much good content out there right now. It's, you know, we are at a point where we are just television and movies is just so good and the quality of the work and the shots. There's a lot of like operators that just worked in film that are doing TV shows and it shows and it's just so perfect. And I'm always like, "Oh, I can't wait till I'm that good one day." You know, it's literally like I'm looking at other camera operators. Like I would be looking at movie stars sometimes. I'm like, "Oh, you worked on this," And you know, like my mentor worked on "Joker," and he, you know what I mean, he's done so many movies and you know, Mitch Dubin has done so many movies with Steven Spielberg and the operators that are out there, I'm just hoping that one day I could be as good as them.

Dan Heath: Pauline Edwards is a camera operator. Pauline was one of those people you just immediately like. After we talked, I started thinking about the scripted versus unscripted distinction and the skill sets that you need for those two very different modes of working. So for scripted, you need perfectionists, high levels of performance, lots of technical expertise, seamless collaboration with others. You're the master French horn player in the symphony for unscripted, you need more spontaneity. You start the day having no idea what you're gonna shoot. You've gotta go with the flow. You're the saxophonist in the free jazz band. Pauline has to perform well in both situations. And that aspect of her work reminded me of the nurse we interviewed a few months ago. When someone comes in for a scheduled surgery that's scripted, you know what's coming, there's a step-by-step procedure. And then in the next operating room over there might be someone who is in a car crash and needs emergency surgery, unscripted. As a nurse, you work both. I'm curious what you'd say about your own job. Are you more scripted or more unscripted? Pauline's job is both, making sure her gear is ready and powered up. Scanning the frame for stray boom mics or Starbucks cups, monitoring fashion models for potential meltdowns to shoot, staying calm as she executes a perfect swingle. And using her camera work to draw us in imperceptibly to exactly the right moments. Folks, that's what it's like to be a camera operator. A shout-out to recent Apple Podcasts reviewers, Mandy, 72183 D-E-M-E-Y M-C-A, Demy MCA as I like to say, Blue Man, Ben 1, Indie listener Sherard 24A1TC. A shout-out to Merfus in the Netherlands and someone who calls themselves Reliable and Efficient in India, as well as Chris Yorston and his brother Mike Yorston listening from Chile. If you wanna reach out to me, my email is Dan@whatitslike.com. This episode was produced by Matt Purdy. I'm Dan Heath, take care.