Science4Parliament - Episode Three - Dr Tim Jacquemard – eHealth
Speakers
Denis Naughten, Dr. Tim Jacquemard
Denis 00:00
Welcome to the Science4Parliament podcast. This is the first of its kind which aims to foster the relationship between science and decision makers and show how research and innovation are vital to the equitable and sustainable functioning of our societies and economies. My name is Denis Naughten. I'm a directly elected member of parliament in Ireland for the last 26 years, and I've served as an Irish cabinet minister, and at the Council of the European Union of Ministers. I'm Chairperson of the inter parliamentary union Working Group on science and technology, which is based in Geneva, which aims to inspire global parliamentary action through legislative work in the field of science and technology. This podcast aims to highlight the work of innovative scientists and to get their perspective on what needs to be done to bring the world of science and policy closer together. And to add something different to the conversation. My guests will be asked to pick two numbers, each of which is related to one of 10 random questions, some of which will be asked during the interview.
So on today's show, I'd be talking about the social and ethical implications of eHealth. With Dr. Tim Jacquemard, Dr. Jacquemard, spent three months as a researcher in residence in the Irish parliament in 2021, as part of the Science Foundation, Ireland Public Service Fellowship programme, and produced a report on eHealth in Ireland, and the opportunities and challenges that it may pose in the future. Good morning, Dr. Jacquemard. You're very welcome. And great to have you with us today. Firstly, can I ask you to please pick two numbers between one and 10?
Tim 01:41
All right, thank you. And thank you for inviting me. The numbers are two and five,
Denis 01:45
two and five. So maybe please explain to us in simple terms, your research area, what it's about, what is eHealth? And how can it be used to improve our lives?
Tim 01:57
Yep. All right. So I'm Tim Jacquemard. I'm a senior research analyst for trilateral research and my research domain is, is quite broad. So I'm looking at complex social issues. And I'm trying to address those with ethical AI. And part of that, that research domain is health. So, within health, digital technology, can really change how we conduct healthcare, digital technology can change how we look at people, and digital technology can have real impact on people. And what I'm doing and what I'm doing within my job is looking at how we can make sure that those impacts of eHealth are positive.
Denis 02:47
And look, I suppose in terms of digital technology, and health, we all know those huge benefits in relation to that. But from talking to constituents, they're also really concerned about how that data is going to be so stored, who has access to it, and how their personal information is going to be protected. How do you deal with that?
Tim 03:09
Yeah, and those are really valid concerns, because a lot of your information, and a lot of information about yourself is being used for healthcare. So a doctor can ask you a lot of information about yourself. And and a lot of that information is also pertinent to your health status. But you don't necessarily want other people to know that information. And digital health care is is interesting, because their benefits and their challenges. So if you ask, for example, I was working in epilepsy care if you ask epilepsy patients? Do you want people to use your data to improve healthcare? And to look at how efficient what the efficacy and how efficient particular medicines are? Then they will say, Yes, please do so. But we also don't want that information that we use for audit purposes, for example, for marketing, or we don't like the idea if our insurance get gets too much access to that information. And we saw with the HSE hack that we don't want that information to be shared potentially by third parties. So the way to address that is to very clearly identify what do you want to do with healthcare information? And what do you not want to do with healthcare information. And then based on those parameters, you have to design your healthcare system. So you have to make sure for example, that's very cyber secure, that nobody else can access it. And then that those who access it, it's transparent, wider accesses, why they access it, and for what purposes, access that information. And so, so that, so, transparency is probably one of the most important things if we look at at healthcare data and the use of healthcare data.
Denis 04:59
So Why did you take an interest in this particular field in the first place?
Tim 05:05
Healthcare is it's really interesting because especially in Ireland, it's healthcare in relation to digital technology is really interesting. So my background is in philosophy, and my background is looking at digital technology and looking at how digital technology can impact society. And if there is one domain within Ireland, where digital technology can have an impact its healthcare, because Ireland is, is not yet as far as maybe other countries are when creating digital infrastructure within healthcare. So it's a very interesting domain, because it's an upcoming domain, and it has real impact on people. So there's real benefits to be created. But there's also a lot at stake, like how are we going to use the data? Who is going to be advantaged by our use of data? And are we taking everybody along? So there are very interesting questions around health care.
Denis 06:04
So you spent three months in the Irish parliament back in 2021. Can you tell me something that you learned about politics or the operation of Parliament during your fellowship,
Tim 06:18
I guess that has to be pre faced by the familiar spiel that was 2021. And 2021, was an interesting time for healthcare and digital health care, because we had, for example, the COVID certificates. But it also was COVID times. So unfortunately, we weren't placed within the practice. But we did speak to you other TDs. We spoke to the Library and Research Service from the Oireachtaas. And it was a really interesting, I think one of the things that we as scientists and researchers are not always aware of is formulate very clearly, fairly shortly. I think the term that we most often heard was time poor, we need to formulate a little bit more concisely and make sure that what whatever you say, is also being useful. And I think that that's useful when approaching a policymakers. But also in wider research.
Denis 07:19
Yeah, and I suppose, you know, in Leinster House, sometimes if you get the opportunity to meet a minister in Parliament, you might only have the time going down in the lift. So it has to be very succinct, even for most as fellow members of parliament. So what exactly were you working on on in your fellowship when you were in Parliament?
Tim 07:39
Yeah,so I was developing a report about the state of eHealth, within Ireland. So my research had different aspects. So I wanted to see what the public and the ethical issues related to eHealth were, how, but the status of eHealth in Ireland was how advanced eHealth in Ireland is. And I wanted to see how those policy issues were actually addressed within within Irish policy. And then I ended up with a few recommendations around policy
Denis 08:12
And what were those recommendations.
Tim 08:16
So eHealth has clear benefits, so that there are loads of advantages and potential disadvantages related to, to eHealth, especially within Ireland, and we need to clearly identify those in the context of Ireland, if we fail to indentify the public values that are that are, for example, relevant to your constituencies, then we risk creating technology that doesn't suit the people, and which will will lead to failed investments and potentially public backlash. So it's very important to have a clear idea about what those public values are, and how eHealth can can help the people within Ireland at this stage at the stage when when I was researching, I didn't find a lot of evidence that those public values were were in depth research or examined. So I didn't see any particular public institutions that were tasked with examining the public values. And I think that there are that there is scope for improvement. So we've got a lot of knowledge within Ireland, we've got a lot of expertise and around US public value. So my conclusion was, let's try to read that. Let's try to see how we can improve eHealth.
Denis 09:39
And just following on from that, like the political cycle works on five year periods. So what would you like to see happen with your work over the next five years,
Tim 09:50
The five years, it is a bit of a constraint because eHealth is here to stay and it will last beyond the five peers, but what would be a good start is to indentify which knowledge centres or which expertise centres can help indentify the public values and help reap the benefits of eHealth. So if you've got public institutions like HIQA who have experience with health,
Denis 10:20
They're the Health information andQuality Authority here in Ireland that sets the standards for health care institutions. Yeah, sorry, Tim.
Tim 10:28
Yeah, no, no, that's a good addition. They, for example, do health technology assessments. But the the public values are a little bit out of the out of their scope. Yet, it might be interesting to see if that could be incorporated there. You've got the Science Foundation, Ireland research centres, which combines a research with industry and policy, and they have very interesting people that work on the digital effects of eHealth. And then you've got companies in Ireland that also looks at the social implications of digital technology. So there, there is a lot in Ireland that we can use.
Denis 11:00
Yeah, and look at, it's a very exciting field, here in Ireland with all that's going on. So let's step back a little bit from it. And those two numbers that you picked at the start of the podcast, so tell me something that your work colleagues at don't know about you.
Tim 11:20
The one thing that they probably don't know about me is that the last five generations of my family all come from different countries. So I, so I've got a German grandfather, South African father, I am Dutch, and my children are now Irish. And before that, actually should make my great grandfather, French.
Denis 11:47
It's really the League of Nations all together. And look, in terms of your own experience. You're from the Netherlands, you're living here in Ireland? And do you have any advice for politicians in terms of engagement with scientists, both here in Ireland, but also in the Netherlands and wider afield? What would be the one piece of advice that you'd give politicians in terms of their engagement with scientists?
Tim 12:20
All right, this might sound quite trivial, but contact, contact them, because all researchers I know., and I've been working in the field now for probably 10 years, they all want, they all have something to tell. And they all want to tell that story. So they are quite approachable. Find them through LinkedIn, or even the University website, or contact them, they're more than happy to engage.
Denis 12:50
And what do you think is the biggest barrier to that engagement, not taking place to date,
Tim 12:55
I'd say the probably two different worlds that speak two different languages at this stage. Scientists are notoriously probably bad at explaining their research in layman's terms. So there's a lot of jargon being used. And they remain a bit within their own within our own species. So we go to conferences, does quite some separation. So I think we as scientists could also do more to be more accessible to do, for example, policymakers.
Denis 13:29
And just on that, and stepping back slightly from what we're just talking about, like one of the big responsibilities, ethical responsibilities that scientists have is not just to publish academically, but to communicate with the public in a broader sense. Do you think the scientific community as a whole is failing in relation to that? And that if they could achieve that particular objective, it would make it much easier for politicians to know who's doing the research in a particular area? And who to pick up the phone to?
Tim 14:07
I'm not yeah, I don't want to say that they're necessarily failing. A lot of the academic work is based on on publishing articles so that it's not not properly valued. So that is one of the issues. I think that plays part. Ireland is maybe quite good at that, because they've got the the SFI centres where public outreach is part of the
Denis 14:35
Science Foundation Ireland, who are the researcher founders here in Ireland, make it an obligation on academics to do public outreach. Sorry, Tim.
Tim 14:43
So that is, that's good. And it's great, and they should continue doing that. But if you look at the wider academic community, which is often International, public outreach is often not valued appropriately. Yeah.
Denis 14:56
So you think that this is something that could be replicated elsewhere to try and help extend that reach. Thanks Dr. Tim, for talking to me and remember that you can find a link to his paper and to the science for Parliament podcasts at whatever platform you use to find your podcasts. Thanks very much, Tim. Thank you
