Science4Parliament Podcast – Episode 8 – Water Caucuses with John Oldfield
SPEAKERS
Denis Naughten, John Oldfield
Denis 00:00
Welcome to the Science4Parliament podcast, the first podcast that aims to foster the relationship between science and decision makers and show how research and innovation are voting to the equitable and sustainable functioning of our societies and economies. My name is Denis Naughten, and I'm your host. And as you know, I'm a member of parliament in Ireland, Chairperson of the Inter Parliamentary Union Working Group on science and technology based in Geneva. And the objective behind this podcast is to highlight the work of innovative people who are trying to bring the world of science and policy closer together. Today, I'm joined by John Oldfield, who is a former managing principal of Global Water 2020. And John is here with me in Geneva, where he's been meeting members of Parliament from across the world, talking to them about the importance of establishing water caucuses, that can actually be a vehicle to transfer scientific information and solutions into the parliamentary process. Good afternoon, John, how are you?
John 01:02
I'm doing fine. Denis, thanks for the opportunity.
Denis 01:04
Great. So, to add a little something to the conversation, I asked my guest to pick two numbers between one and 10, each of which is related to random light hearted question. So what are your two numbers? John?
John 01:16
Let's see, three and six,
Denis 01:19
three and six. That's lovely. So anyway, first of all, tell me about the work that you're doing with caucuses. What is the caucus? was are you trying to do in relation these water caucuses? Why is it important to members of parliament?
John 01:33
Yeah, super questions. Thank you, Denis. We in the water sector, and I've been active in water for 15 plus years. Right now, we're very good at talking with the water ministries with the technical leadership within water. So I'll have a conversation with a water minister. I'm a sub-Saharan African country. And he'll say, Well, of course, we want universal access to safe drinking water 100% coverage in my country. Of course, we all want that. Then I'll push a little bit harder. And I'll say, well, why don't you we all agree this is a good thing. And then he'll say, well, because Parliament won't vote the laws that I need to do my job as water minister, because Parliament won't vote the budgets for water and sanitation and hygiene access in my country. So then I'll ask the Minister well where's parliament? And the minister will say, well, we forget to invite parliamentarians to these meetings. So you forget to invite the bosses, you forget to invite the people, the legislators who are responsible for the laws and the budgets that support the work of your water ministry.
So, we in the water sector need to do a better job of prioritising the entire legislative branch national level Parliament's governors in decentralised systems like Kenya, and every mayor across the globe needs to prioritise water. So I'm here in Geneva at the Inter Parliamentary Union assembly, meeting with as many delegations as possible to encourage those members of parliament to launch what are called parliamentary water caucuses back in their home Parliaments. Now it's important to note that a caucus is not a committee. A caucus is not a formal commission. Our caucus is what one Swedish Member of Parliament referred to as a parliamentary club. It's a group. It's a network of members of parliament for different political parties, different formal committees, urban and rural districts, men and women, these members of a parliamentary water caucus are united by one thing, one thing they have in common, and that's their desire to accelerate progress on water and sanitation and climate resilience in their countries. So the desirability factor is very high. Nobody thinks this is a bad idea. The challenge is doing it. And there's two steps to that process, launching a parliamentary water caucus. And then strengthening that caucus, the launch is relatively easy. You could pull together a membership, you could pull together a terms of reference and executive committee and so on. Once you get it up and running, then the hard work starts. The challenge is which legislative actions should we as members of this parliamentary water caucus try to prioritise which legislative actions should we support and try to get passed into laws or newly increased budgets for water? That's the hard part.
Denis 04:12
And look, having talked to members of parliament in different parts of the world, and this is not just an issue in Sub-Saharan Africa or in low- and middle-income countries. This is an issue right across the globe. It's a challenge that I was dealing with, in my own constituency 10 years ago. But in terms of establishing this club, so to speak of people that are interested in water. Like there's one thing you're right in establishing it, but how do you then feed and support that? One of the things that continually frustrates me, and it was a challenge that I was dealing with in my own parliament, is coming up with practical implementable solutions that I could present to government in terms of ensuring that my constituents had safe clean drinking water coming out of their taps. So how do we tap into the pool of knowledge that's there? Where is that pool?
John 05:07
Well, another good question. There is knowledge, there's data, there's information, there is knowledge, more than we need, frankly, to make concerted legislative actions to increase water security. In any country across the globe. The challenge is that a lot of this data, a lot of this information, a lot of this knowledge is firmly ensconced in thumb drives and printed publications that occasionally get dusted. That's the problem. That there's not a bridge between science and policy, the good science that we have is not being utilised for its intended purposes. So every time I see a report from anybody from any author, whether it's a UN agency or a government or a scientific organisation, I will read this report, or at least its summary it but I won't spend a lot of time on it. Many of these reports say what you and I both know is the case, the water problem is serious. The water problem is solvable. But it's not being solved at the rate that the issue merits especially not when you're dealing with the Bottom Billion, the most marginalised, the most vulnerable communities across the world. So we need to do a better job of building a bridge between science and policy. These caucuses are one way of doing that.
So the chair of a parliamentary water caucus, for example, could bring a new report on water to the attention of the chair of the water committee in her parliament, or the Chair of the Health Committee in her parliament and say, these water data, this water information and knowledge indicate that show us what we already know we have a problem here. They also point towards specific concrete, tangible solutions that can be undertaken through concerted legislative action. So the chair of the parliamentary water caucus would tell the chair of the water committee, if you propose this and this type of legislation, a new bill on water and women, for example, or a new bill on water and climate resilience. For example, we, the members of the water caucus from different parties, different committees are prepared to lend our voices so that your legislation, the legislation introduced by written by supported by the water committee, or the Infrastructure Committee, we can do everything within our power to make sure that your bill becomes the law of the land. That's powerful stuff. So these parliamentary water caucuses, even without formal authorities, like a committee or a commission have even with the relatively informal authority, the voices of the membership of a parliamentary water caucus can move bills ahead and accelerate progress on water security and improve the lives of millions of people across that country.
Denis 07:41
So John, we need to take a step back for a minute and ask something a little more lighthearted. So question number three, what was your last enjoyable film that you saw?
John 07:49
Well, that's an easy one. It has to be Ratatouille, the animated movie. It's there's fine dining. It's in Paris, and there's rodents, what's not to like?
Denis 08:00
And I hope that there won't be too many rodents in Paris. So we're talking about water caucuses. And there is a perception that this really is an issue for low and middle income countries. And it's not really an issue for countries with established in strong economies. What do you say to that? Well,
John 08:21
I say that water security should be a priority for every political leader in every country across the globe. The vast majority of my work is focused on the global South, launching and strengthening parliamentary water caucuses across Africa, Asia, Latin America and the Middle East. But in my country, the United States in 2024, there are still 3 million Americans without access to safe drinking water. Most of these are brown and black and First Nation Americans. So water should be a priority for those local political leaders and for the national political leaders.
In the US. However, there's beyond a domestic water caucus, there's an opportunity to form the global water security caucus, which we did four years ago in Washington DC and that global water security caucus focuses on safe drinking water, sanitation and hygiene from the perspective of foreign assistance, not domestic water challenges. And one example of its legislative priorities is the global water security caucus in the United States is supporting a particular piece of legislation focused on increasing wash access in health care facilities across the globe. Think about this, there are 17 million women who give birth every year across the globe in health care facilities and hospitals without access to safe drinking water without in an unhygienic environment. Can you imagine so this particular piece of legislation would increase the priority of water sanitation and hygiene in health care facilities across the globe? That's an example of what a global water security caucus could focus on.
Denis 09:52
And just when you're on that topic, if you have a water caucus in a country where they have these particular challenge with women giving birth, do you think it would help in terms of being able to leverage foreign investment in for projects like that?
John 10:08
Absolutely. And I'll tell you exactly why you know, donors, whether it's a private philanthropist or a bilateral aid agency or a multilateral lateral or regional development bank donors should not be looking to get their buy in for the donors projects donors should be following their lead donors should be buying into the projects designed by and owned by and operated by Tanzanians, Guatemalans, Vietnamese, and so on. donors don't want to lead donors want to follow and the more leadership that those local communities can show, the more leadership that those national parliaments across Africa, Asia and Latin America can show for water, the more likely it is that the international donor community will respond positively will follow the lead of the Ghanaian government, of the El Salvadorian government, of the Cambodian government, more local leadership is shown, the more domestic resources are mobilised by those countries, I think the more likely it is that the international donor community will respond positively.
Denis 11:15
And I'm going to take a step back again for a second from the international community investing in challenges in countries where the basic infrastructure is not in place. But take in my own constituency a decade ago, four out of 10 of my constituents couldn't drink the water out of the taps, there was boil water noses in place. And one of the problems that I had at the time was getting access to the technical advice that would have had to address those problems in the short term handing a long term solution we put in place. So how do members of parliament that are involved in these caucuses get access to the data and information that is needed in an understandable format that they can use to drive legislative change, or to drive the policy change?
John 12:05
There was a famous American politician named Tip O'Neill who years ago said 'all politics is local'. And he's so right. What he didn't address is the fact that all water is local. You know, Denis, we don't have one singular global water problem, what we have is millions of local water problems and millions of local water solutions. So my suggestion to the members of a parliamentary water caucus, if they need this data is to ask for it. And that gives the various purveyors of this data, the opportunity to respond to that demand. Give you an example, if you're facing a lack of water, if you're facing water insecurity in your country, and you're a member of parliament representing those districts, ask for help. Ask for the data from the scientific community but ask for that data in such a way that they know that data will be converted into tangible concrete legislative action to prevent that drought which will happen, from becoming a famine, which is optional. The data is out there but the bridge between data and policy is sometimes missing.
Now a parliamentary water caucus relies on two types of human resources for its success. The first is parliamentary staff is members of parliament are busy and the members of a parliamentary water caucus need staff parliamentary staff appointed by the clerk of the National Assembly appointed by the speaker appointed by the senate president to support the work of the members of that parliamentary water caucus. The parliamentary water caucus also needs human resource support from beyond parliament. One great example is the Ugandan water and sanitation network in Uganda is a civil society umbrella organisation focused on wash water sanitation and hygiene. The Ugandan water and sanitation network responds to the demands of the Ugandan parliamentary water caucus for data. The parliamentary water caucus needs data on water in healthcare facilities, on water in schools on water in drought prone regions in the northern parts of Uganda, the civil society organisations supporting that parliamentary water caucus can make sure that that data gets into the hands of those members of parliament in such a way that those members of parliament can then turn that data into meaningful legislative action. So there's a need to speak both of these languages as you do; the language of science, but also the language of policy. And that's a tricky skill set that's rarely found. Data needs to be translated into policy. And it's probably the most challenging obstacle we face in the water sector right now.
Denis 14:36
And I'm going to come back to that in a second, John, but I'm going to ask you your second question, which is question number six. What's your favourite restaurant meal?
John 14:47
Well, I spent two years of my childhood in the Italian region of Liguria. So, a nice well cooked fish and pesto sauce made out of basil leaves. It's been my one of my favourite meals since I was nine years old.
Denis 14:48
Sounds good already. So coming back to this bridge issue. So, you know, you've a Member of Parliament or a number of members of parliament that come together through a formal parliamentary water caucus or an informal one where they have a vested interest in, you know, they all have a similar challenge, an issue that they need to address and they're prepared to work together. So where do they turn to at that stage to start getting access to the information and data that they need and the practical solutions that will make a big difference?
John 15:30
Well, let's say you're the chairwoman of a parliamentary water caucus, the first person you might want to turn to, for a number of reasons, would be the chairman of the water committee within your parliament. What scientific data do you have chairman of the water committee that we should be considering as we look for ways to support your legislative priorities on the water committee? Second person I might suggest turning to, would be the water minister in that country, or the public works minister or the environment minister, or even the health minister, all of whose portfolios include water and water sanitation and hygiene to one perspective or another. Ask the people, whose job it is to have access to that scientific data, that information, that knowledge. Put your civil society leaders in your country to work, go to the head of the Ugandan water and sanitation network and say, I as the chairman of the water caucus in Uganda have a problem, I'm considering different ways to end open defecation in Uganda. But there aren't any sanitation facilities along major highways, so people are defecating in the open and creating multiple health threats to those regions. What can you provide me from civil society that would help me design an appropriate legislative vehicle to tackle the problem of open defecation along roadsides in my country. And there is data, there's always data, there's always science, there's always information.
But the gathering of the information is the easy part. The hard part is translating that information into bills into laws. And that's where you need specific localised data, not just national level data will only get you so far. But when you're dealing with a sub national water problem, you need sub national water data. And that's the sort of data that might be available only locally. More broadly than that there are, I believe, 24 United Nations agencies under the umbrella of UN water, UNESCO, UNDP, UNICEF, all the other biggies that provide this data to one extent or another. If your challenge is in the parliamentary water caucus, preventing waterborne diarrheal disease, which is killing about a million kids under five each year, preventively. If that's your challenge, I would draw your attention to the joint monitoring programme of the World Health Organisation and UNICEF, which has the best national level data on water and health, that's available today.
Denis 17:42
And you'd start at that particular point, can I take it back a bit. And we all know the obvious challenges and issues there are in parts of the world where the basic infrastructure is not in place, in terms of water and sanitation. But you know, in many parts of the world, my own included, these challenges are more about the volumes of water that are available. So if we have an industrialist coming in, they want to know that they have the capacities within the existing infrastructure, both in terms of water and wastewater treatment. In rural communities, it might be agricultural practice. How do you see the different priorities being reflected in water caucuses in different parts of the world?
John 18:26
Yeah, it's a very insightful question. As I've said, all water is local, every country, every province, every district and every city council is facing different water challenges based on any number of variables. You're right to mention that the quantity versus quality problem. So quantity, 20 litres per person per day, that's a reasonable amount. It's a minimal, I should say, amount of water necessary for human survival for drinking, bathing and cooking. But worse quality, there is no quality in that definition. If you have 20 litres per person per day, that water could still be infected with cholera and could still sick and kill you and your children. So it's important to think about both quantity and quality. Quality is a different challenge set and requires different solutions.
Other times water is looked at from a clinical health perspective. If 17 million women each year are giving birth in healthcare facilities without access to water, that requires immediate tangible legislative action and financing. If one is trying to prevent a drought, which will happen, from becoming a famine, which is optional, which is preventable, that requires a whole different set of data and a whole different set of bridges between scientific data and policy actions. If one has too much water, there are ways to mitigate the severity of floods. If one has an absence of girls in school. Why are there no girls in school? Well, when they're little, they may well be helping their mothers carry dirty water around on their heads and they're missing school when they get older. The older girls, the pubescent girls might not have access to menstrual hygiene products and water and hygiene in the schools so they might miss a week, a month. And after they've missed a few weeks, they fall behind their male colleagues, and they drop out of school and they get married early, et cetera, et cetera. So there is no one answer to a very insightful question. The key is for a parliamentary water caucus to ask exactly that set of questions in their own country in each of their own districts of their constituents, those constituents with or without water quantitatively or qualitatively, will know what their problems are. And they will have some ideas about what the legislative actions are.
Denis 20:31
And another interesting aspect of this is, we're looking at it very much in terms of our constituents, and you've touched on the issue of overseas development aid. But do you think there's an opportunity to network some of these water caucuses so that you would have the water caucus, you know, where you would have a mix of members of parliament who are looking at the quality of water, but also in terms of water being a development aid vehicle, in what is are traditionally called the Global North hearing up with a water caucus? In countries where the basic infrastructure is in place? Are there opportunities for that?
John 21:08
Well, there certainly are, before I answer that question directly, I'll say of greatest interest to me is the activity at a national level in any given country. That's where the most important decisions are made by Parliament's about potential new laws and potentially increased budgets for water, for water and climate, for water and health, for washing, healthcare facilities, etc. So I'm mostly interested in working with Parliaments at a national level to launch and then to reinforce these parliamentary water caucuses. Now just today, here at the Inter Parliamentary Union in Geneva I have shared with members of Parliaments from across the globe. The terms of reference of the newly launched parliamentary water caucus in Pakistan's Senate I have also shared with parliamentarians from across the globe. The terms of reference of the network of Chadian parliamentarians for water security in the African country of Chad. Liberia has just relaunched its legislative WASH caucus with its renewed terms of reference after its most recent elections.
My caucus in the United States, the global water security caucus, has its own terms of reference. Now, is there a reason to pull together these parliamentary water caucuses from across the globe to share experiences? Yes, should they be learning from each other rather than from me? Absolutely. I think the Tanzanians who are considering launching a water caucus in their own parliament have a great deal to learn from Uganda's water and sanitation leadership in their parliament over the last 12 years. It's exactly that sort of global and regional networking, that I hope the Inter Parliamentary Union can facilitate following up to the science work that you've done in Vietnam and elsewhere. I would also hope that regional groups like the Parliamentary Assembly of the Francophonie, the French speaking countries, I would hope that they would be able to work with the World Water Council and the Inter Parliamentary Union to launch a regional network, let's say in Francophone West Africa. So there's a lot of opportunities to share best and promising practices and parliamentary water caucuses. And I hope to facilitate those.
Denis 23:11
I'm going to ask you one last question. And that is that politics is all about the electoral cycle, and the challenges that we have to meet, many of which are usually five year cycles. So where do you see this concept of water caucuses going in the next five years?
John 23:28
Well, it's possible to achieve a lot in five years in in electoral terms, the key challenge in the water sector right now is that we are making progress. These water problems are serious, they're solvable, and they're being solved as you and I sit here, but they're not being solved at the rate that the problem merits, we have to accelerate progress. Somehow, I want to help the world move from a mathematical rate of progress to an exponential rate of progress, you can sort of visualise that new graph, we have to go exponential with water security, or else we're never going to meet the Sustainable Development Goals of 100% coverage. There are two ways. One is financial leverage, if you invest $100,000. Well, why not turn that into 1000s of micro loans 1000s of microcredit initiatives so that potentially millions of women across the globe can take out small loans to extend the water infrastructure to their homes. As those loans are repaid, more loans are made to more families. So there's an interesting way to move exponentially just through financial leverage, which a group called water.org, founded by Matt Damon, that you might know, is working on.
Another way to do to get to move from a mathematical rate of progress to an exponential rate of progress is through politics. That's why I'm here. If I invest $100,000 In wells, I'll get 10 wells give or take, if I invest that $100,000 in advocacy in public policy advocacy, if I invest that $100,000 in launching parliamentary water caucuses across the globe, I might get trillions of dollars in outputs from now As new laws are passed country by country with the support of these parliamentary water caucuses, as budgets are increased for water with the support of the members of these parliamentary water caucuses. So it politics is challenging, you know better than anyone. But politics is also the answer. If we want to move from a mathematical rate of change to an exponential rate of change, this is why I do what I do. This is why I launch parliamentary water caucuses. Water is not easy. And politics is not easy. But this does have the potential to go exponential and improve the lives of literally billions of people across the planet within that five year period.
Denis 25:36
Thanks for your time. John, this is really interesting talking about this concept of water carcasses. And with the podcast, there's a link and you can find out more about John and the work that he's doing with water carcasses through that and make contact with them. Thanks, John, for your time.
John Oldfield 25:54
Thank you, Denis. It's been a pleasure.
