Trouble in Alberta’s Headwaters

Did you know that the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Alberta are home to incredibly valuable ecological landscapes? Sometimes called the current of the continent, three major river basins extend from this area, with some of the water going to Hudson Bay, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific Coast. This week we head back to western Canada to talk with Executive Director Katie Morrison and Conservation Science & Programs Manager Josh Killeen of the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society’s (CPAWS) Southern Alberta Chapter.
With the confluence of the mountains in the west, the grasslands to the east, and boreal forests in the north, there is a wide range of diversity in Alberta’s Rocky Mountains, including a 50 kilometer strip of forest that holds an incredible amount of biodiversity. In addition to the amazing nature in Alberta, the province also has a long history of natural resource extraction — especially as it hosts the fourth largest forestry industry in Canada. Josh and Katie take us on a tour of the region they work in, and set the stage to understand challenges facing these areas. What does forest management look like, and what are its impacts?

Learn more about Josh and Katie's work on the CPAWS Southern Alberta Chapter's website and support a future for the Highwood here.

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Transcript

Jan Sumner: 0:00

Welcome to the Clear Cut. Hi, I'm Janet Sumner, Executive Director at Wildlands League.

Kaya Adleman: 0:08

And I'm Kaya Adelman, Carbon Manager at Wildlands League.

Jan Sumner: 0:14

Wildlands League is a Canadian conservation organization working on protecting the natural world.

Kaya Adleman: 0:21

The Clear Cut is bringing to you the much needed conversation on Canadian forest management and how we can better protect one of Canada's most important ecosystems, as our forests are reaching a tipping point.

Jan Sumner: 0:40

Okay, we got a chance to sit down with my favorite hunter. Okay, we got a chance to sit down with my favorite hunter.

Kaya Adleman: 0:46

Not something that you would expect coming out of the mouth of an environmentalist, huh yeah.

Jan Sumner: 0:51

Well, katie is, unapologetically, a hunter and fisher and she'll tell you in this episode where she gets her main source of meat. Katie's knowledge of the land is so incredible and that's because she spends time on the land. And this is one of the other things. When I worked, when I was doing caribou conservation planning in Alberta most of that was in the north, but I remember I was working and this was usually industry folks who were out there hunting and fishing on the land. But when I was working with them, their knowledge of the land was so incredible because it's just an integral part of how they live and how they access their food sources. And what's great about Katie is that she hunts and fishes and gets her food sources from the land and it gives her a perspective and a knowledge of the land that is so incredible. And then Katie is a colleague of mine because Wildlands League is affiliated with the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society and we're going to be speaking to the Southern Alberta Executive Director at the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society in Southern Alberta.

Kaya Adleman: 1:59

Yeah, I'm excited to do that, and we're also joined by Josh Killeen, who is the Conservation Science and Programs Manager.

Jan Sumner: 2:08

The conversation with Josh is also good because he used to work for industry. So this is you'll get a worldview into this, but it's not northern Alberta that we're talking about this time. It's southern Alberta and we have yet to focus there, and so I think this is going to be a great conversation as well, because we get to know a little bit about the Rockies and what's happening with forestry there, and so I think this is going to be a great conversation as well, because we we get to know a little bit about the Rockies and what's happening with forestry there.

Kaya Adleman: 2:30

Yeah, I agree I I'm excited for this episode and it definitely makes me miss spending time out there. It's a quite a beautiful place to be, if you ever get the chance to go.

Jan Sumner: 2:41

Yeah, I was. I was just out there recently and it's breathtaking, Absolutely breathtaking. So let's go ahead. Well, kaya, I'm excited this morning because we are going to be talking to Katie and Josh, who are from Alberta, and for some of our listeners they may not know that I worked in Alberta. I wasn't necessarily living there, but I was traveling back and forth to Alberta as we were developing caribou conservation plans with many of the forest industry companies who operate in Alberta. Now, this was caribou conservation, so it was northern Alberta. The conversation today is going to be about southern Alberta, but I've worked with Katie in particular for a number of years, and Josh actually in a different context, on caribou conservation. So we'll get into that in a little bit as we go along, but I'm looking forward to the conversation around the Rocky Mountains.

Kaya Adleman: 3:38

Yeah, me too. Do you guys want to introduce yourselves for our listeners?

Katie Morrison: 3:45

Sure, I'm Katie Morrison. I'm the executive director of the Southern Alberta chapter of CEPAWS, the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, so CEPAWS, southern Alberta. Our mission is to protect and conserve the vital ecological functions of public lands and waters here in Southern Alberta, so we work on freshwater conservation as well as public lands, whether that's protected areas, management of protected areas or management of landscapes that are unprotected, but we still want to see them managed with nature as a priority.

Jan Sumner: 4:21

And you're based in Calgary, right. Is that correct? And you're based in calgary, right, is that? Is that correct in calgary? And I just want to honor the fact that you're also under a severe water shortage right now, with uh challenges uh ongoing in the city of calgary.

Katie Morrison: 4:35

So we are. It has been two weeks that we have severe water restrictions, um, and it looks like it'll be another three to five, so it's it's a eye-opening experience of what our water future could look like. You know, the water shortage right now is because of a water main brink, but I every day think about, you know, the future of our water, and I'm sure we'll talk more about that.

Jan Sumner: 4:57

Yeah, definitely, Josh. A little bit about you and you're not in Calgary.

Josh Killeen: 5:02

Yeah, I live in Edmonton. My name is Josh Killeen. I'm from the UK originally, but I moved out to Alberta about 10 years ago. I'm a biologist by training. I went to university in London in England, and then also in France and the Netherlands for my MSc degree, and then I moved out to Alberta and spent a number of years working for a consultancy company, working primarily with forestry companies on forest management planning and also with the provincial government on caribou range planning, which is where we met, of course. And yeah, now I work with the Canadian Blacks and Bord Society and the Conservation Science and Programs Manager with Southern Alberta Charlton.

Jan Sumner: 5:49

Yeah, I worked sitting at tables, as I mentioned, on caribou conservation, and Josh was usually sitting on the other side of the table providing data and analysis as a contractor to industry, as a consulting service. Contracted to industry as a consulting service, but I got to say, and also for governments. But I got to say I thought it was a real coup when Katie was able to get Josh to join the team at Southern Alberta. So I'm very pleased to see you sitting on this side of the table, even though we're virtually separated.

Josh Killeen: 6:19

Absolutely yeah, it's been really exciting for me as well.

Jan Sumner: 6:23

So, Katie, I know something about you that, I think, is you know that not a lot of people assume that environmentalists are hunters, are out there fishing those kinds of things, and Katie often will talk about that. In fact, I was just in meetings in Camorra and she was talking about trapping etc. I won't mention which species is an invasive, but maybe you could just talk about that a little bit.

Katie Morrison: 6:53

Yeah, so I didn't grow up in Alberta, but my family has been in Alberta for many generations and really connected to the land. And one of the ways that I really connect with the places that I work and the places that I live is through hunting and fishing. And for me, you know, hunting, particularly because it is such a major food source for me I source, you know, most of my meat that I eat throughout the year myself. For me, that's a really profound connection to a landscape when, um, I have to understand, uh, how that system works really well, to be able to understand the animals on the system and be able to to hunt those those animals, um, but it also means that I'm I'm, you know, fueling myself throughout the year with something that came from these landscapes and for me that's it's a, you know, circular really strong connection.

Katie Morrison: 7:52

I feel this really strong connection to the land because I'm hunting and harvesting my food there and the process of hunting and harvesting that food also makes me understand and connect to those landscapes even more. I also fish a lot, and so the areas that we'll talk about today are also areas that I do a lot of fishing. It's, you know, up in the eastern slopes the fishing is all catch and release because the species are threatened, federally listed as threatened but that too is something that I can see, those changes on the landscape when I'm out fishing. It's very personal for me the work that we do because of the connection that I have to these places through hunting and fishing, and you must have an extended community as well that you, I mean.

Jan Sumner: 8:46

you're just not out there by yourself, right? You'll see other people who are hunting and fishing and you get a chance to connect to people who are also on the land and land users.

Katie Morrison: 8:57

Yeah, I have a good community. Some of that is family that my brother, my older brother, particularly hunts, so I'll hunt with him, Um, but also a good community of folks who um are are out hunting and fishing the lands and really connected to caring about and conserving these places because they have those connections. Um, I'm on the board of an organization called Back Into Hunters and Anglers and I'm now on the North America board and the Canada board. I helped start the Alberta chapter about eight years ago and that's an organization of hunters and anglers that are entirely focused on maintaining foot access, maintaining sustainable access to places to allow us to continue hunting and fishing, and also conserving these really important landscapes so that we can continue to harvest food and enjoy nature through hunting and fishing.

Jan Sumner: 9:58

Thank you for telling that story. I think it's really important to have those words out there in the world and that environmentalist conservationists not be pigeonholed into these narrow definitions, and so thanks for sharing that, josh. I'm going to turn to you next. And are you a hunter and fisher, or are you a computer geek? Or maybe a combination of both? I don't know.

Josh Killeen: 10:22

More of a computer geek than a hunter, but I did grow up on a farm but maybe I can tell you a little bit kind of why I ended up with seaports and what that means to me. Because, as I mentioned, I grew up in England and one of the things about England is a beautiful place but it doesn't have many wild spaces like we have in Alberta and in Canada in general like we have in Alberta and in Canada in general. And one of the things that really struck me very hard when I first came to Alberta and still today is how much incredible wilderness there is here.

Josh Killeen: 10:55

And what a special thing that is to still have those places, which are truly wild.

Josh Killeen: 11:02

And for me, that was one of the things that I saw when I was kind of working in my consultancy job. That was that, even though we have these amazing places, we kind of take them for granted and we continue to believe or to tell ourselves that we can kind of have everything all the time everywhere and still have these wild places. And what I saw from the forestry perspective was, you know, that that just isn't really true, that there's always a trade-off, there's always a compromise, and often it's the environmental side of things that bears the brunt of that compromise and, uh, and so that's why I ended up with seapores, because, um, you know, I wanted to be able to make a meaningful difference, to actually protect the wild places that we have here while we still can, um, and to make sure that we have them going forward for for the future I think it would be good for listeners to have the context of why there is a CEPA's Southern Alberta chapter versus a Northern Alberta chapter.

Kaya Adleman: 12:10

Are there differences in the conservation efforts in the ecology, landscapes, etc.

Katie Morrison: 12:18

Yeah, I mean it's a little bit of a historical approach. So CEPA's as an organization, our chapters have always grown from grassroots movements and so most CPAS chapters, or most provinces, have one CPAS chapter that covers the province. But both the Alberta chapters were formed in the 60s and at that time there were just sort of two different grassroots organizations or grassroots movements that then created two separate C-plus chapters and we have always just then maintained those two chapters. But you know there's enough work in the province for two chapters to cover. So we kind of roughly split our area around Red Deer, which is the middle of the province-ish it's actually a little bit farther south than the middle and the southern Alberta chapter covers roughly the Red Deer River south. The northern Alberta chapter covers the Red Deer into the boreal. So in the south we're dealing more with Rocky Mountains, eastern front of the Rocky Mountains, we're dealing a lot more with headwaters, landscapes with foothills and prairie landscapes, whereas in the north they're dealing a lot in boreal issues.

Jan Sumner: 13:39

Because I was reminded yesterday as I was describing to somebody internationally who was working on mapping and I was saying well, it's right in the middle of British Columbia, right here, and he's like where's British Columbia? So maybe you could just situate Alberta for some of our international listeners, Because the podcast now enjoys being heard in six continents and we're still holding out for Antarctica, but we're in six continents and we're still holding up for Antarctica, but we're on six continents. So maybe you could just explain where the heck Alberta is.

Katie Morrison: 14:11

Yeah, I mean Alberta is in Western Canada and I think most people have heard of the Rocky Mountains, so the Rocky Mountains are what separate Alberta from British Columbia. So we are in the West and a lot of the work that we do is in those Rocky Mountains and in those foothills of the Rocky Mountains so really valuable landscapes from so many perspectives which we can get into. But it's a Western province. It is a natural resource dependent province. Historically we have really focused our economy on oil and gas, forestry, mining those pieces, and so there's, when we start talking about natural resource management, there's sort of a different history and culture, I would say, in how we think about these things in Alberta which is changing as we progress as a province and as economies change. But we're certainly a province rooted in natural resource management or natural resource exploitation.

Jan Sumner: 15:16

Yeah, and what you're doing in the Rockies is also very much related to the US as well, right, because you've got this north-south with the Yukon to Yellowstone, that that Rocky Mountain range goes quite a ways, and just maybe set that in context so people understand its connectivity to the rest of the continent.

Katie Morrison: 15:37

Yeah, I mean we work in Southern Alberta but we actually end up working across jurisdictions quite a bit, whether that's across the B, the BC side, or down into Montana, which is directly south of us, because those ecosystems cross those boundaries. It's, you know, there's not a US-Canada border where suddenly the wildlife stop moving or the water doesn't flow or, you know, those things are all connected across those jurisdictional boundaries. And the area that we work in actually is sometimes called the crown of the continent and it's an area where three major river basins extend from. So some of the water goes to the Hudson's Bay, some goes to the Gulf of Mexico and some goes to the Pacific Coast, which makes it really unique ecologically but also really interesting jurisdictionally, because what happens in that landscape is affected by and affects often these trans-boundary issues across the borders provincial borders, municipal borders, first Nations borders, but also the international border if I were to tap into the lay person in canada.

Kaya Adleman: 16:55

When they think about calgary or southern alberta, they don't really think about forestry so much. Um, could you maybe talk a little bit about the forestry or forest management that happens in southern alberta?

Katie Morrison: 17:09

yeah, well, I just start describing the landscape and then maybe josh can talk about. You know, the forestry that goes on in that landscape. So you know I mentioned that that a lot of where we're working and a lot what we're talking about is the is the rocky mountains. So it's the east front of the rocky mountains, um, which is this really um unique and and cool landscape, because we've got the prairies that come up and then meet sort of a fescue foothills grassland system that goes up into a montane and subalpine alpine system, all within a pretty short distance. So you know, when you have the Rocky Mountains, you might think of those, you know, like big, beautiful peaks. And we're talking the stuff that's just on the east of the more forested. It's a largely coniferous forest but really diverse.

Katie Morrison: 18:07

When I was talking earlier about how we're situated in this crown of the content landscape, with those three major watersheds, it's also sort of a convergence of those three major ecosystems and so we get a real huge range of diversity in that system because of the confluence of the different ecosystems meeting in this crown of the continent landscape in the Rocky Mountains. So it's, I mean visually, it is what you think of when you think of Alberta or when you think of the Rocky Mountains, and then that thin strip of forest is only about, you know, 50 kilometers wide from those rocky peaks out into that grassland. So it's actually this really thin area of forest that holds that incredible biodiversity value, that amazing tourism value because of that iconic landscape. It has a lot of value because of that in sustainable economies, whether that is ranching in that foothills landscape or tourism and outfitting guiding, hunting and fishing guiding. But one of the really key pieces of this landscape it is the headwaters of the prairies, including Alberta but all the way into Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

Katie Morrison: 19:37

So 90% of the water between 80 and 90% of the water that is used by all those downstream communities, those millions of people who live downstream, comes from this little thin strip of about 50 kilometers wide in this region and that fuels our agriculture, our industry, our drinking water. It's just this incredibly important resource that we don't treat as this incredibly important resource. We don't treat as this incredibly important resource. We treat it sort of as an area to extract for the short-term value. So maybe I'll turn it over to Josh to sort of talk about forestry, particularly in this region, although we're also dealing with you know forestry and some oil and gas and post coal mines and you know there's a lot of you know unsustainable recreation, motorized recreation particularly. There's a lot of threats to this landscape and the water resource in this landscape. But I'll let Josh talk about forestry.

Josh Killeen: 20:44

Yeah, so forestry in Alberta is the fourth largest industry, like across Canada by province, so behind Ontario, quebec and BC. And you're right that most of the forestry that takes place in Alberta is primarily in the boreal. That's the biggest producer of lumber and pulp by far. But there is also quite a bit of forestry in southern Alberta too and, as Katie was describing, it's in this strip of forest that we have in between the mountains and the prairies and there's kind of two forest management agreements. So those are a tenure that companies have on provincial land for harvesting timber that are in this southern part and in the scheme of Alberta forestry. They're quite small, probably only about 2%, 2.5% of the total cut that happens in the province, but their impact is really large.

Josh Killeen: 21:44

And this is kind of going back to what Katie was saying, that it's hard to overstate the importance of this landscape from all these different perspectives biodiversity, water, recreation and tourism. But at the same time we have this forest industry in this same small area which is under a lot of pressure from a lot of different avenues and it has a really big impact. And so we've come to this place where it's very difficult or impossible to have the scale of industry that we have in the same place, while also maintaining all those other ecological and social values that we have that are so important to us. And so that's, you know, that's kind of where we're trying to navigate is is how do we improve that situation?

Jan Sumner: 22:36

So let me get this. I just want to make sure I get this right. So you've got the rockies, which are this great big peak. You've got a thin strip of forestry which is maybe 50 kilometers. Then, as you're heading down the mountain, you run into that forest and then eventually it becomes grasslands, it becomes the big prairie, um, and all different kinds of grasses, et cetera, where you have and having traveled that landscape, you have a lot of ranches.

Jan Sumner: 23:00

So the water starts out at the top, it's in those glaciers, it's in those big rivers and it's flowing down that and it's going through that forest, going through that grassland, it's going to some of the ranchers, but it ends up, if you're going eastward, it ends up going into Hudson Bay, right, and that's where we're working on protection for all the creatures in the ocean there. And the other thing that it does is it goes south and it's going to go all the way to the Gulf of Mexico and I imagine it's going to go through a fair number of towns and cities and places where they have farms and agriculture and people who depend on that fresh water. And how we manage that thin strip is going to determine the water quality and the availability of water for people east and south of it, but also to the west, going into Pacific. Is that correct?

Katie Morrison: 24:40

Yeah, I mean the continental divide that divides Alberta and BC is sort of where that water divides. So most of the water that comes from Alberta is not crossing that continental divide into the Pacific, but that sort of region when I talked about that crown of the continent region, the Tri-Peaks, which is actually in Montana, is part of that whole system and flows that way. Some conflicts when we talk about mining, particularly coal mining, when they take a top off a mountain, if that is part of the continental divide, that can actually then mess up how that water flows and get water that would have been flowing into the Alberta side then flowing into the Pacific, the BC side.

Jan Sumner: 25:30

So no small task when you talk about managing this fresh water so that it can provide livelihoods and health and benefits all across the continent.

Katie Morrison: 25:41

really, quite frankly, that's an enormous job and some of those really, really dry areas you know, southern Alberta is one of the most drought-prone areas is one of the most drought-prone areas and so that sort of contrast between the importance of water in this thin strip. The need for water downstream is so high but we're not sort of making decisions on this landscape as if that is true and that that's the water that is providing our entire agriculture industry, our ranching industry, our communities.

Josh Killeen: 26:20

I think that's a really important point, that this is a very drought prone system in southern Alberta, but it's also the largest irrigated farmland area in Canada and it's also the drinking water for everyone who lives in Southern Alberta, which is a really rapidly growing population and, as you mentioned, then crossing all these boundaries into other provinces, into the US and so on, and so the importance of the region is just so high that it means that we really have to be smart about protecting it in the future and looking after it in the future, because if we fail to do that, the implications would be huge.

Jan Sumner: 27:07

Yeah, so we've done a number of podcasts Now. We've talked to people in British Columbia, we've talked to people in Atlantic Canada and Ontario, where we have some expertise, and I'm very interested to sort of figure out the forestry that's happening in southern Alberta. You talk about being conifer dominant, but not necessarily just exclusively. What kind of forestry gets done there? We know that in Ontario we have full tree harvesting forestry gets done there. We know that in Ontario we have full tree harvesting. When we spoke with Dr Peter Wood about forestry in British Columbia he very much relayed the history of forestry there, that actually in policy and in fact it's a planned policy to move natural forests into managed forests, that's actually what the current policy framework is in british columbia. That is the stated purpose. So and to feed the mills, basically. So what's the? What are we dealing with in alberta? What's the? And specific to southern alberta, what is the policy framework or how is it approached? Because i's different.

Josh Killeen: 28:11

Yeah, it's certainly a similar story, though in that it's very much driven by that timber supply as the first priority for the industry and indeed for the government regulator.

Josh Killeen: 28:24

So you know, forestry has been going on for quite a long time in southern Alberta, but it really got going in earnest in its modern form kind of in the 60s, 70s onwards, and we had the Forest Act, which is a Alberta piece of legislation that was produced in the 70s to govern how forestry would proceed in the region, and that piece of legislation really set out the idea that that timber supply was coming first, that we were managing for a sustained yield of timber going forward, and that was the priority.

Josh Killeen: 29:02

And that's in quite stark contrast to the policies that surround the eastern slopes, the area that we've described, which have generally, at least in principle, taken the idea that the water, the biodiversity, the recreation, that those things are really priorities. And so there's this conflict between some of the different aspects of policy and legislation in the province and the result of that has been that the forest industry has continued to kind of move down this path of focusing on extraction and having those ecological and social values be ultimately secondary to that. And so, while things have changed significantly since the 1970s and there's certainly more awareness and more incorporation of other values beyond timber. It's still the case that that timber supply is the priority, that's what's coming first, and our other values are sort of seen as constraints on that timber supply instead of something that we're prioritizing and that we're putting first. And that really puts us in a tough position, because what we've continually seen is that we've had environmental degradation as a result in the South.

Jan Sumner: 30:19

Can you maybe expand on that and the reason I'm asking about the environmental degradation? We've got a podcast coming out shortly about the EU which is looking at a procurement policy that says they won't take fiber, pulp and paper from areas with degradation or deforestation. And Canada for anybody who hasn't listened to some of the episodes deforestation is internationally defined not by having no forest there, but actually having a land use change. So moving from a forest where we have forestry to, for example, a shopping mall or a new suburban development kind of thing that are changing it into a city boundary, that kind of thing would be a land use change. But degradation is definitely something Canada has to get its head around, because we're seeing new laws coming up in the US. We're seeing the UK has a new law and this EU degradation directive. So can you speak to that, josh, in terms of maybe how you see degradation happening in this forest?

Josh Killeen: 31:25

Yeah, I think you make a really great point there that we don't technically do much deforestation in this region. When it comes to forestry, we're replanting the trees after harvest, but what we're replanting isn't the same forest that was there before. That's the key difference. That's the degradation, and typically what's done is that there's a move towards planting a more monoculture conifer stand after harvest, and so there's a loss of some of the diversity in the system and we move from having a very complex forest with a lot of structural diversity and a lot of complexity in how it functions to something which is much more simplified where we have typically a monoculture stand of conifer which is going to grow fast and produce as much timber in the least amount of time and produces much timber, you know, in the least amount of time. And that's the goal of the forestry process is to actually create more timber more quickly, not to have a forest which is as healthy and biodiverse and resilient as possible.

Josh Killeen: 32:38

So that's kind of that key difference between, yeah, deforestation and degradation. And there's no doubt that we're seeing significant degradation in our forests and one of the clearest indicators of that is species at risk. And I know on this podcast you've talked a lot about caribou as an example of that, but in the south we also have several species at risk native trout species like the Westlip cutthroat trout and the bull trout, risk native trout species like the Westlet cutthroat trout and the bull trout and those populations are declining extremely rapidly and forestry is a big influence on that. And so we know, you know, from those things, from tracking what happens to populations of species like those, that we're not doing a good enough job at looking after these ecosystems.

Kaya Adleman: 33:30

Could you get into maybe, how specifically forestry practices are? Causing the decline of these species.

Josh Killeen: 33:39

Yeah, definitely. So. What happens in the wider watershed has a huge impact on the, on the aquatic ecosystem, and that's in a number of ways, so one of the the biggest ones is through erosion and sedimentation. So we see that when the, when we do clear-cut harvesting on the landscape and when we build all these roads into these um, into these relatively undisturbed places that often have quite steep and rugged terrain in this region, that there's a lot of erosion potential and a lot of sedimentation then comes off those roads, off those cut blocks, and it ends up going into the water, it goes into the streams and the creeks and that flows down into the bigger rivers.

Josh Killeen: 34:19

And trout don't do well with sedimentation. It has a huge impact on their ability to survive and reproduce and it's a huge influence on the population declines that we see. And then, at the same time, we often see things like warming waters as well. So when we remove the forest cover, that often increases the water temperature, particularly in those smaller creeks that feed into the bigger rivers, and our native trout are really adapted to very cold and clean water. And so when we end up with warmer water, which is much more impacted by erosion and sedimentation, that's really a double whammy for the native trout, and they have a really hard time coping with that. But I think I'll also let Katie jump in on this, because I'm sure she has a little bit to add as well.

Katie Morrison: 35:13

I can talk about fish all day. So yeah, I mean the native trout, as Justin mentioned, are really adapted to these ecosystems and they need cold, clean, connected and complex systems. So they need cold water, as Josh mentioned, and when we remove riparian cover or cover up the landscape, that can kind of increase those temperatures and potentially increase the water temperature and potentially increase the water temperature. The clean, as Josh mentioned, the sedimentation connected. When you put a bunch of roads and culverts over these streams, there's a chance that fish will not move as easily through them or bridges over. That could be a visual disturbance and then complex, so they they lay their eggs um in in these like rocky, pebbly um stream bottoms and when you get a bunch of sedimentation that covers that over, it creates like almost like a cement, a thick um cement at the bottom of the streams and that complexity that allows them to lay their eggs and have those eggs sort of hidden and staying where they're supposed to be on the bottom of that complex floor. They're much more easily washed away in that.

Katie Morrison: 36:33

The other piece that sort of has a landscape influence is when water comes off, so you know when you have clearing of of the forest in these uh, landscapes, uh, and then when water or when snow melts in the spring, um, the snow melts much faster, um, and and so all that water sort of runs off the landscape rather than seeping into the landscape and trickling off throughout the rest of the year.

Katie Morrison: 37:04

So we have higher runoff in the spring, when we don't want higher runoff, when we're already at risk of floods. And then when August comes and we need that water, in the streams and in our communities there's less water available because it already all ran off in the spring. But that also affects trout who, you know. When you get that big runoff temps or runoff in the spring, that can, you know, change the bank's stability and, you know, maybe even create more erosion and sedimentation and then later in the summer, if your streams are really low, they're going to be warmer and less available for fish to move. So I think it's people don't often think about this, you know like big landscape disturbance and how that affects water. But but in this landscape particularly so connected between what we do on the land and how that impacts aquatic health and then our ability to use the water downstream as well.

Kaya Adleman: 38:43

I'm just thinking with warmer water. Would increased levels of dissolved oxygen also be an issue for fish?

Katie Morrison: 38:52

Absolutely that's. Part of it is temperature Both West Slope cutthroat trout and bull trout. They need their water quite cool, so you're looking at no more than 16 or 18 degrees Celsius. Once you get above that it starts to become a stress on their system and part of that is absolutely the oxygen that's in the water become a stress on their system, and part of that is absolutely the oxygen that's in the water, Would you so?

Jan Sumner: 39:29

I know that in a boreal system, caribou are often considered a bellwether of how healthy the system is. Are any of these species what you would consider? Something that kind of gives you a measure or an indicator on how well this ecosystem is doing?

Katie Morrison: 39:45

Yeah, I think absolutely, you know, because they need that clean and cool water.

Katie Morrison: 39:53

How we are treating our landscapes is reflected in the water. How we are treating our landscapes is reflected in the water and then you know the fish's ability to survive in that is a reflection of the health of that entire system. So, yeah, we do often talk about them as an indicator species and they're not doing well. You know, we have three species of native trout, two of them in the south the West Lope Cutthroat Trout and Bull Trout, which is our provincial fish. And then there's Athabasca Rainbow Trout, which is a little bit farther north in the Athabasca system. But all three of those Bull Trout and West Lope Cutthroat Trout are federally threatened and Athabasca Rainbow Trout is federally endangered. So if we are treating them as that canary in the coal mine or that indicator of landscape health, I think it's telling us that we are not doing right by this landscape, that we need to be changing the way we manage for these species, for biodiversity, but also for ourselves, because we rely on that water just as much.

Jan Sumner: 40:58

So it's a bit of a warning system that says, hey, time to get your act together. So can you describe some of the work that you're doing to influence decision-making? And you can talk about forestry, because, ultimately, we're here to talk about the forest, but you can talk about forestry. You can talk because we're ultimately, we're here to talk about the forest, but you can talk about forestry. You could talk about, uh, as you said, there's a coal mining, there's various other things that go on in these, these areas that also compromise the natural um ecosystems and and threatened species.

Josh Killeen: 41:37

Do you want to dive in with a summary, katie, and maybe I can then add something on the forestry side of things.

Katie Morrison: 41:44

Yeah, so, as I mentioned, there's a there's sort of a lot that goes on in this landscape. You know Josh mentioned earlier that for more than a hundred years our policy has always reflected that that water is the most important value of this landscape. But that's not reflected in management or you know, all the other acts and legislation and policy that overlaps that which tends to take priority. So it is quite a busy landscape. There is a threat of new coal mines in the south there's not any active coal mines.

Katie Morrison: 42:19

In the north slopes there are some, but you know, threat of new coal mines from some policy changes that the provincial government made a few years ago that are now currently on pause, with one exception, which is complicated Because it should also be on pause, um, complicated, um, because it should also be on pause, um, but you know, threat of coal mines, uh, forestry, uh, and all the roading that comes with forestry exploration roads for mining, uh, for oil and gas. There is, you know, some oil and gas extraction, um, there is a lot of, um, motorized recreation on the landscape, which is also a threat to the water quality, and threat to fish, again, because of those new roads and new trails maybe not built in the right places that create sedimentation and crossing of streams, busy landscape that we do need to get a handle on, because we can't have all of these activities happening in this place and expect that the ecosystem will continue to function as it should.

Josh Killeen: 43:36

So on the forestry side of things, some of the things that we're working on are to, at an overall level, to try and influence government to modernize and improve the Forest Act so that we can move away from this timber supply first model to an ecosystem function first and a social values first model and have timber supply be a part of that but not the driving force behind it. So that's kind of the longer term goal that we're working toward. But one of the campaigns that we're working directly on at the moment is in an area called the upper highwood, and so this is in this kind of transition zone that we've been talking about between the peaks of the Rockies and going down into the forested area, and it's right in between a bunch of different protected areas and this is kind of this sliver of unprotected landscape where there's still a significant forestry presence and it's really a stunning area. I'd love to be able to show you a picture of it right now.

Jan Sumner: 44:44

it's just this beautiful area, um that, if you've ever been to, albert describe it to us, josh, tell us, tell us why it's beautiful, sure, yeah?

Josh Killeen: 44:52

yeah. So, um, if you're, if you're driving into the mountains on on highway 40, um, you're kind of, uh, going through this, this landscape that gets more and more rugged as you get towards the mountains, more and more changes in topography and you have this beautiful rolling forest, um, that you're, that you're passing through, and then in the background you have those enormous peaks that are so emblematic of the Alberta Rockies and, yeah, it's just a stunning place. And this particular area is relatively untouched by development. There's no oil and gas in there. There's been very little forestry in there. There was a little bit back in the 1960s, but it was relatively minor, and so it's this quite special, quite untouched place, was relatively minor, and so it's this quite special, quite untouched place and it also has huge value for native trout.

Josh Killeen: 45:44

It has a really important bull trout population and lots of folks like Katie go out there fishing, go out there angling, and it's just a beautiful place to be. That has a lot of value and meaning to lots of people in the area. And unfortunately, this really large swathe of it is set to be clear-cut, and it was actually planned to be clear-cut last year, but ourselves and a number of other organizations, and particularly led by a grassroots group in the area, were able to force a pause in this plan to kind of reassess whether this is really what we should be doing in this place. So that's a campaign that we've been working really hard on, both from a point of view of raising awareness with the public, of putting pressure on industry and on politicians putting pressure on industry and on politicians but also on doing a bunch of scientific work as well to try and better assess just how it's used by native trout and what its value is to native trout as well, and so that's some ongoing work that we're doing.

Jan Sumner: 47:00

I think that what comes across in this episode and what you can hear in Katie's voice is her absolute love and understanding of the land, telling of what she sees happening on the land and her experience of that, because she has such good firsthand knowledge and understanding of it. So, yeah, I really, really enjoyed learning about the eastern slopes and and those areas of the rockies that are so important for water and thinking. And it's what do they say? It's the most irrigated and the most drought prone part of Canada.

Kaya Adleman: 47:42

I think it's also 80 to 90% of the water is used by all those downstream communities from those headwaters. I think they were saying so yeah, that's crazy.

Jan Sumner: 47:52

Yeah, definitely something to think about.

Kaya Adleman: 47:54

Yeah, I personally learned a lot this episode. The fact that you have all these ecosystems that are all coming together, you have the mountains, you have the prairies, you have forests in the north, and the fact that there's this 50 kilometer strip of forest in this area that holds just this credible amount of biodiversity is really special and kudos to Josh and Katie for doing the work that they're doing to protect it. And we have a really exciting conversation second part of our conversation coming up, so definitely stay tuned for that next week.

Jan Sumner: 48:28

Yeah, if you like listening to the Clear Cut and want to keep the content coming, support the show. It would mean a lot to Kaya and I. The link to do so will be in the episode description below.

Kaya Adleman: 48:43

You can also become a supporter by going to our website at wwwwildlandsleagueorg. Slash the clear cut and also make sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. It would really help the podcast and stay tuned for new episodes by following us on social media.

Jan Sumner: 49:04

That's at Wildlands League on Instagram, twitter and Facebook or LinkedIn, of course.

Kaya Adleman: 49:10

See you next time.