Neerja Bhatia, on power, rebellion, and being true to yourself

In this episode, Neerja Bhatia shares her life and career journey, from her rebellious childhood in India in the 1960s, moving to Canada as a teenager, and getting a taste of power as a newly single mother in California. Hear why being true to yourself is a lifelong challenge, with joyous rewards.

Neerja is a coach, facilitator, and author of the book, The Art of Resilience.

• Learn more about Neerja
• Visit the Show Notes for links and more details.

Promotional offers:

• 📷  This episode is sponsored in part by Gail VanMatre Photography.   
  • Raleigh NC area: 💁‍♀️ Update your professional image with a headshot session.
  • ✨ Mention this podcast for a special offer!

Transcript

This is episode 22 and today I am joined by Neerja Bhatia. Neerja is a coach and facilitator, as well as author of the book, the Art of Resilience. She loves to create a safe space for transformation to happen so that people can get insights and uncover their blind spots and ultimately step into who they really are.

So welcome to the show, Neerja.

Neerja: Thank you for having me, Rebecca. Lovely to be here.

Rebecca: Today we are going to explore your life journey, your career story, and your perspective on the various challenges that women face at different stages of life. But let me start with, I always like to open the show by asking, what's bringing you joy right now?

Neerja: What's bringing me joy is self-discovery as always. While it is not. The most wonderful thing to go through, but the end of it to just uncover, continue to uncover who you are is the most joyous part of my life. 

Rebecca: I love that. 

All right, let's start at the beginning. So tell us about where did you grow up, what was it like there?

Neerja: So I grew up in India and what was it like? It was a very different world than what it is here, especially at the time that I was growing up in the sixties. There was clearly a very big difference between how boys were raised and how girls were raised and what I noticed was there were so many things that I couldn't do and then, you know, my cousins could do, I grew up in a family where my parents had three girls, and of course they, their desire was to have a boy, and that didn't happen. And I was the middle child. They even picked a name, Neeraj, which is a boy's name. And here comes a girl. So that was like a big disappointment to my family they didn't put too much effort into, you know, creating a new name for me. They just you know, played with an A around and named me Neerja instead of Neeraj. So you know, it's interesting that when you're growing up, even though you're little, you may not understand the language, but you do pick up on emotions. So there was always this sense of me not belonging or that's how emotionally I picked up on what was going on. And fortunately I had some lovely, lovely. aunts and cousins who I could just absolutely be myself with and have fun. But I always sensed there was this tension around the home that, oh, we wish there was a boy in this household. And I think I being very em empathetic and a sensitive soul, I picked up on that quite a bit.

Rebecca: Yeah, I bet. So how do you think that? Shaped sort of who you became as a person?

Neerja: So interestingly enough my father and my mother had two different values and like, and two different beliefs, and they both taught it to me. So my father, for instance, he would tell me, you know, a man is a master of his own destiny. Not a woman, but a man is a master of his own destiny. I had to figure it out much later.

Oh, it means both or, or more. And then my mother, she said that without the will of God, even a leaf cannot move. So we have absolutely no free will is what I got from my mom. I took that in, I internalized it So. You know, obviously I grew up with a lot of inner conflict, which one is true, which one isn't. my mother my mother's side of the family was very, very spiritual. And my dad's side of the family, they were very, you know, like strong business people. and very judgmental. 

And, my mother wasn't. However, as was growing up, later I found out that my mother was a perfectionist. So in her own way, she, she, too was quite judgmental because nobody could do it the way she could. And so my quest or my life quest really went very fine tuned and focused on what is. Behind all this. What else is there? I hated the mundane living. I did not like doing chores in the house and I was a daydreamer. And I knew there was something more to life than what we were seeing. It was much later in life where I finally brought the two beliefs together and recognized that it's not either or it's both, and. When we get stuck in our patterns, our habitual patterns. Of course we don't have any free will and we become dependent on outer forces. But when, you know, we, we step into ourselves, we have the force of creating our own will or doing things the way we want to, we are a person of our own destiny.

Rebecca: So it seems like kind of where you came from and how you were raised, really, you pull a lot of that  into the work you do every day. 

Neerja: Absolutely. That's why I say, you know, it's not work. It's a calling I'm living it and doing it on a daily basis.

Rebecca: You spoke about, your parents and your aunts, who do you think has shaped your values the most? 

Neerja: I, have been a very curious person from early on, we used to, when, when I was little. We used to have a lot of spiritual leaders who would, you know, come and visit my mom and dad. And, so we had a had a culture where. up with a lot of wise souls and they would come in and they would talk to us about the philosophy of life and. And while I was maybe six or seven, I should have been out playing with kids, but I would love hanging out with them because I would sense this presence in them. They were so courageous, so wise that I would just, I wanted to just sit around them and just ask  them questions or just be in their presence. And deep down inside I kind of knew this is what I wanna do. I too wanna have a very large presence and this wisdom when I grow up. So yeah, I think they, they influenced my thinking and of course my curiosity influenced my thinking and my values.

Rebecca: That sounds like such a, such an interesting place and time to grow up. So walk me through, how did you come, you, you at some point left India. When, when did that happen and, and what spurred that?

Neerja: So I was 16 and my parents, my mother was the only child. From her side of the family that was in India. The rest of the family was in Canada. And my grandmother kept telling her, you know, like, just leave that world behind. It's really hard. It's harsh, very judgmental society. You need to just pack up and, and come, to where we are.

And they were in Toronto at the time and I was 16 and my dad was resisting it. He didn't wanna move. But then finally he caved in. And that was like freedom for me, Rebecca!, 

Rebecca: Yeah, I was wondering what that was like to land there at 16.

Neerja: Yes. It was like, wow, this is what I've been waiting for. And. school system in India was extremely strict and extremely rigid, I've never done well with structure. I. So it was, it was hard for me. And that I think that in one sense, while it was hard for me at that time, but the gift that it gave me was, it made me rebellious being rebellious, even though at the time it didn't sound so good because I eloped, I did not fall for having an arranged marriage,

Rebecca: Wow.

Neerja: Which my parents wanted me to. And even though it was a wrong decision, it was my  decision. And so those are the things that I, I did a lot of things where I would say, no, I don't wanna do it the way our culture dictates. and I have this level of, resistance towards authority because of that. And I would question that. I go, why? Why does it make them right and me wrong? Because the minute you make somebody right, you're also making somebody wrong. even before this, both and concept came into being, I was thinking about it already. I'm going, wait a minute.

What? What does a place of commonality look like why does it have to be a certain way? And I, there was always this resistance. Resistance to authority, resistance to the right or the righteous way of doing things.

Rebecca: It feels like it's fascinating to me that, I mean, I think of like sixties and early seventies as being. Such a time when that was the case for so many young people and it's, it's interesting that, you know, in a different part of the world, there's, there were some of you out there who were experiencing that same, you know, questioning of why does it have to be the way it's always been?

Neerja: Yeah, exactly. It's painful. It's like people are trying to put you in this little box and saying, well, sorry. You know, here you are an immense being. Get stuck in this box and stay there. That doesn't feel comfortable.

Rebecca: Hmm. How did, how did your parents fare through all of that? That seems like it must have been so stressful for them too.

Neerja: Yeah, I have created a lot of stress in their life and and it's interesting that, you know, they, while I was creating so much stress, the connection, the deep connection, the love that I have for them, I. Of course it's always been there and it always will be. My dad passed away six years ago, and I, I can say out loud, I was the one closest to him because I would also embrace their thinking and have compassion on why they're thinking the way they are, because of all the inner work that I started to do after my divorce. You know, I, I, I thought marriage would be something, you know, living happily ever after. So a lot of these beliefs that were, that I learned as I was growing up were. Like getting crushed in one sense. Like, wait a minute, that's not true. That's... whatever I've been told, maybe there's more to it.

Rebecca: Okay, so let me, let me back up there. So you ran off and got married unexpectedly to, to someone that maybe was not, who would've been provided for you, and then I heard, and that didn't at some point, didn't work out. What was in between there?

Neerja: In between I had two lovely children, so that was a gift from that marriage and lot of trying to figure  out. What true relationship is all about and, the quest for me trying to figure things out was my relationship with myself. So at, at much younger days, I would think that, wait a minute, I, I am incomplete without a marriage. I am incomplete without a sense of know, status . So if marriage made me complete, then I should feel complete, but I wasn't feeling complete what was going on. So a lot of those, the thinking that was given to me was not jiving and it felt flawed.

Rebecca: it sounds like almost a set of expectations of what a marriage is supposed to provide for you as a person maybe didn't, didn't transcend reality.

Neerja: No, it did not.

Rebecca: Hmm. Wow. That must have been, I feel like coming from a. Culture that plays such a strong emphasis on, you know, marriage and lifelong commitment for better and for worse.

That must have been really difficult to sort of find your own way out of that and question that.

Neerja: It was, it was not a fun time for sure, Rebecca, because you know, when I was contemplating leaving the marriage, my mother said, no, this is it. Like this is what marriage is.

Rebecca: Hmm.

Neerja: you can't just walk away. You've got two kids. I go, well, mom, if this is what marriage is, then I don't wanna be married. And, so she had, time with that because then that brings a lot more stigma and a lot more shame and a lot more guilt for, you know, our family reputation, which to me it didn't matter because don't care about other people what they think. They're not the ones living my life. I'm living my life.

Rebecca: Yeah. Well, and you wonder too, she must have, on some level, she must have worried for you if she placed all of this sense and belief in what marriage was supposed to be for you, for you to walk away from that. What does that, what does that mean for you, you know?

Neerja: Yes, they, they were definitely coming from worry.

Rebecca: So tell me, looking back, what's one moment that you can see now really changed the trajectory of your life? 

Neerja: I think what changed the trajectory for me was going on a retreat and it was a five day retreat. And in that, in that time, all I had was myself, my thoughts, a lot of reflection and a great facilitator. So I was sitting there, parents were looking after the children, and I. I had just divorced now I was like, the canvas was blank and I wanted to paint my picture and my vision of where I wanna be, what do I wanna do? And interestingly enough, on that canvas, there was nothing about being in a relationship or having a marriage. It was more about. my own dreams, my own desires, and my own, like bringing my courage to life. .

And sure enough shortly after that, got an opportunity and I was living in Canada, in Calgary at the time. I got an opportunity to move to California for a, a software company and become a director of sales and marketing. I think that's what just changed things. I, I got more power. I was on my own and, you know, the children and I had a beautiful time being there in California for three years. I I was living dream for those three solid years. It was, at the time, I felt that power and I knew, wow, this is amazing. Look how much a title and a job and having all this money can do for you and can bring for you. Until one night I decided that's not what I wanted, and it all came. Crumbling down because now my thought pattern was, okay, it doesn't come from a relationship, it doesn't come from a job or a title. Then what else is there? So that, my curiosity took me to creating my own company, rhythm of Success it, it was, when I first started the company, all I wanted to do was. Do retreats! Back to the facilitator who was so amazing at creating a safe space. That's what I wanted to do, create a safe space for people to go inwards well, that's not what I'm doing today, Rebecca.

I still have this dream about doing it sometime in the future. but I, don't think anybody was ready to go so deep at the time. This was 20 some years ago and that's when I met my now husband, Deepak. And we've been married now for 23 years, believe it or not, Rebecca, people around me said, you've got two kids.

You should really be focused on the children, not about you getting married. And I... 

Rebecca: Now husband. Well, that's unexpected. Interesting. So tell me, so you've been remarried now, did you expect, did you expect you would marry again?

Neerja: You know, I wasn't too sure. I had to find the right man. It wasn't going to be just, you know, for the sake of being married. Yes, I went through a few different relationships to really find the right person, and I was looking for someone who's spiritual,  who's open and curious like me, and who's not afraid to take. And you know, just, just

Just a human. without judgments

Rebecca: Hmm.

Neerja: I found him.

Rebecca: So I'm curious, you learned kind of through the course of your first marriage, okay. Marriage does not mean, you know, these set of beliefs that I've been handed. What does it mean to you now, you know, 20 plus years on the other side of a very different marriage?

Neerja: Yeah, so what relationship is all about is it's evolving and growing doing it together. I. So if I start to grow more, or you know, if there is such a thing as more, or if my ideas and mindset start starts to change, then how do I bring along my husband's thinking? if you're, if you're both not growing and evolving together, then you are dying together.

Rebecca: Hmm, that's so profound, and especially in a world where so many couples can be quite fearful about each other, changing.

Neerja: Mm-Hmm. Absolutely. And one thing my husband used to say a lot, and before he used to say it in a you know, in a, in, in a grudging way like, you are moving my cheese again. And, and now he laughs. He goes, there you go, moving my cheese again. And then sometimes he'll shock me because I go, wait a minute, you are moving my cheese now.

He goes, I'm learning from the best. So we can both laugh about it. But yes, our ideas have evolved and changed so much. From where we were when we first met. It takes a lot of courage to even let go of your persona, even to let go of your thinking and be willing to step into the unknown and

Rebecca: Yeah.

Neerja: adapt a new way, a new idea of thinking.

I think that's ultimate freedom.

Rebecca: You sort of said quickly about jumping into your own, your own business, but for many, many women who I talk to, that is a big dream that they have and they often have a lot of, I. Uncertainty and self-doubt about doing it. So what was that like for you?

What did you, what kind of mindset did you have to bring to the table? What, what did you worry about getting started? Like, walk us through that.

Neerja: You know, it's okay, so back, way back then when I started this, it's interesting, I actually played by the men's rules. I hope I don't get into trouble for saying this,

Rebecca: it's okay.

Neerja: they have a very different way, and I'm not, when I say they, I don't mean all men.

Rebecca: Sure.

Neerja: But I still remember I did not have anything on my calendar and of my ex employer actually called me and said here, you know, you've started this company. you know, I was wondering, would you be able to help me out with my sales in Winnipeg?

And, you know, it's, it's really, really bad there. And I said what, what is it that you're looking for? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he said, this is he, he gives me the description and he says, you think you can be there next month? I said to him, lemme look at my calendar and get back to you. And I hung up and I, I'm shaking there because I don't have any business and I'm going, I can't believe I just did that.

I go, well, I've learned from some of the best men

Rebecca: Yeah, project the confidence and the success that you want to come your way seems to be the attitude sometimes. Just, it's not necessarily a bad, not necessarily a bad thing, I suppose.

Neerja: No, I laugh at it now. But I called him back and I said, yeah, absolutely I'm available and this is my rate. He goes, wow, that's almost three times what I paid you. I go, well, that's the rate, you know but you will get the results. So it's

Rebecca: Hmm.

Neerja: up to you. And then of course I was, I, I did some work for him and it was interesting.

The whole dynamics was so different because before I. He used to be the authority figure, and now all of a sudden I became the authority figure. so the power had shifted and I didn't like it, Rebecca. It didn't feel good to my soul. Why can there be equal power is what I thought about. Why is he being so nice to me now?

Why couldn't he be so nice to me when I worked for him versus with versus with him?

Rebecca: How does that shape how you show up in client relationships now?

Neerja: Today I bring in wisdom and humility. That's what I lead from. and as much as I can, sometimes I have to let go. Sometimes I. I recognize that I, you know, I may not be the ideal person. And or may, they may not think I'm the ideal person.

They have a label in their mind, they have a judgment and am I willing to let go and be okay with it and not get upset about it.

It's, it's constant work. Because I know I can do it. And sometimes, you know, you just have to go, okay, fine. The ideal client, I'd rather have the ideal client versus a client.

Rebecca: Hmm. Say more about that.

Neerja: So an ideal client is one who is willing to take the risks, who's open. people who are curious and people who are tired of relying on their habitual patterns. it's an addiction. And while in the moment it may give them some satisfaction, a little bit of hit of dopamine, but in the long run, it's not what fulfills 'em. so people who are curious about, Hey, what does fulfillment look like? Am I willing to step into truly who I am versus who others want me to be?

Or an idea of who I think I am.

Rebecca: Yeah. Let me ask you this. Think about women who you've known, women who you've coached, and let's say kind of early career . What are some common things that hold women back in our own thinking?

Neerja: Oh yeah. A common thing is that we're not static. So just because you've had five experiences out of 200 where you didn't show up as confident doesn't mean you are not confident. What about the other a hundred and, you know, 95 experiences where you actually came up and you were so confident that nothing could shake you, you were unstoppable. And they go, wait, wait a minute. Yeah, we can count in our, you know, with our fingers that yes, these were the ones where I actually stumbled and failed and I didn't do well.

Why am I making that the focal point?

Rebecca: Hmm. Yeah. Creating the space for the both and you know, both. I can sometimes be less successful and I can be. Wildly successful. Other times, one doesn't negate the other.

Neerja: Absolutely, absolutely, and neither defines me. What defines me is what I'm choosing to be in this moment, of my own destiny.

Rebecca: Okay. So I can, I definitely can see that in early career, young life for myself. What about women as they start moving in, let's say late thirties, forties, early fifties? What, what do you think starts to get in our way at that stage?

Neerja: So there is definitely still a lot of you know, power, a lot of, motivation to rise, motivation to get up there at the top. And there are a lot of hurdles you come across at that time you will hit resistance. And I think during this, this is the middle lifetime, is when women start to understand a minute, you know what? If I want to be truly successful and rise to the top, I have to work from the inside out. That's when they start to dive in more and think about it more than they have.

Rebecca: So what does that look like?

Neerja: that would look like a lot of, you know, self-help books or a lot of leadership books, a lot of seminars, a lot, you know, even getting a coach, mentors help them think through and uncover their blind spots.

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. I noticed too at somewhere around midlife, there is a reckoning that I see a lot of women doing, which is. I now see clearly what's going on around me, and, I see that I'm going to be perceived in certain ways again and again. And so what am I going to do with that?

Right? I, I, it is not in my head. I'm not imagining that, you know, the stakes are a little different for me as a woman. So now what, what do I do with that information?

Neerja: Yeah. And that this is when, when they come to that place, what do I do with this information? it's not the easiest information to just drop and let go and jump on another bandwagon and say, okay it's been with us. It's been with us, not just in this lifetime, Rebecca, it's been with us from generations. It's our ancestry, it's in our DNA.

Yeah.

And to heal that, to let go of it, it requires a lot of, you know, courageous work, a lot of  introspection. This is not what, you know, media tells us is, is fun. This is not what, you know, we get rewarded for from the outside in. 

Rebecca: So we've kind of covered all the way into midlife. I talk to a lot of women who are in their fifties and moving into sixties, and one of the things that I find interesting that they seem to struggle with is. Right at the moment when they should be at the peak, right of they're at the peak of wisdom and health and, you know, things are still going well, things are going probably better financially than maybe they have before.

They're going very well, you know, they have the wisdom and yet all of a sudden they start struggling with feeling diminished by the world around them. So what, what do you think's at play there?

Neerja: So there's a couple of things going on because we can't just clump them into one. You know we can't just clump them into one way of thinking. So the two things that are going on is, one, they've stopped caring from the outside in. Now I'm going to go out and do my own thing, even though I am so prepared to share my wisdom be a part of an organization and do things my way. But they decide, you know what? It it because the force within the organization is so strong. I wanna really fight that or do I wanna just. Live a fulfilled life and do it on my own. So that's

Rebecca: Hmm.

Neerja: thing that, that is going on. the other is they'll say, huh, with what I know, I.
what I have come to understand now, I want to find one company where I can really make a difference.

And this is the last piece I'm going to do before I retire. But I, I wanna find something that resonates with me. They could stay with the same company and, and or stay, stay with the same organization and still the system. But pick and they start to pick and choose their battles more wisely. And some do it with a little bit of resentment, some don't. That's the difference. 

Personally for me, I sometimes sit there and think like, wow, you know what? I've had the highest peak day and the lowest valley day. And I've lived so many high peaks that if I died today, I'm going to die very happy.

Rebecca: What would you tell a 25-year-old Neerja if you had the opportunity to time travel and, and give her some wisdom?

Neerja: Oh boy.

Continue to be rebellious. Um, continue to, you know, and explore and, and do it without feeling guilty. I think that's the only thing I would I. her because she was very courageous at the time, but there was a lot of, a lot of guilt imposed by the culture.

Rebecca: Hmm to let go of the guilt.

Neerja: Mm-Hmm.

Rebecca: That's beautiful. All right, well let's wrap up by, let me ask you, what have you been reading lately? Neerja.

Neerja: The book I've been reading is by David Hawkins, Letting Go. And it's, it's a fascinating book. It's interesting because it's tying everything that I've been learning throughout my last 30 to 35 years, the biggest insight, the biggest aha that I got out of this book was when we start to feel the fear, we don't have to make sense of it. All we  have to do is. Feel the sensations of the fear completely and observe it. And watch it it does shift and change. It will get minimized after a while. And in that is where the real transformation is because you're not giving it a voice. You're not you know, judging it. You're not afraid of the fear, but you are just allowing it to have the space. And heard, and that's it.

Rebecca: That's powerful. I have to check that one out. By total coincidence, I actually just finished reading a novel called Lies and Other Love Languages by Sonali Dev and it's a story that spans a woman's life in the US in California and in India. So it's a funny on the timing, but I really enjoyed that one. Well, Neerja, it's been lovely having you on the show. Thank you so much for joining.

Neerja: Thank you for having me, Rebecca. It was lovely being with you. 

Rebecca: Well chicas, that's all for today. For more episodes or links to the resources I might have mentioned, visit getyourselftogetherchica. com slash podcast. If you liked today's episode, please share it with your friends, post it on social media, make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss any episodes. I would value so much if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you listen to podcasts.

Until next time chicas.