Sleep Better: Tips and Tricks for a Restful Night

Are you struggling with sleep issues or looking to improve your sleep quality? In this episode, sleep specialist Savannah Hypes discusses the importance of sleep, common sleep disorders, and practical tips for better sleep. From understanding insomnia to managing technology use before bed, this episode covers a range of topics to help you conquer your sleep challenges.

3-5 Tips for Better Sleep:

1. Establish a Wind-Down Routine: Create a relaxing routine within the hour before bedtime to signal to your body that it's time to unwind.
2. Consider Light Exposure: Ensure you get plenty of daylight during the day and dim the lights in the evening to support your circadian rhythm.
3. Engage in Relaxing Activities: Engage in calming activities before bed, such as meditation, progressive muscle relaxation, or gentle exercises like tai chi.
4. Limit Stimulating Technology Use: While technology use before bed is debated, ensure your engagement with devices is not overly stimulating or exciting to promote relaxation.
5. Seek Social Connection: Stay active socially to help regulate your body's internal clock and promote overall well-being. 

Take a step towards better sleep today by implementing one of the tips discussed in this podcast episode. Whether it's establishing a wind-down routine, engaging in relaxing activities, or seeking social connection, prioritize your sleep health for improved well-being. Tune in to the full episode for more valuable insights and tips on conquering your sleep challenges.

Transcript

Savannah: 0:00

I also really encourage people to talk with your prescriber about trying to avoid the sedative hypnotic medications. so typical sleep meds like Ambien, those can actually be dangerous for older adults who are more at risk of falls. Because that sedation effect is going to cause you a lot of difficulty with being able to keep yourself stable if you do have to get up in the middle of the night. So those, really sedating medications or hypnotic medications are really not recommended for older adults to use long term

John: 0:41

Hi, I'm John.

Erin: 0:43

And I'm Aaron. You're listening to connect and power the podcast that proves age is no barrier to growth and enlightenment.

John: 0:50

Tune in each week as we break down complex subjects into bite sized, enjoyable episodes that will leave you feeling informed, entertained, and ready to conquer the world. Savannah Hypes is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and insomnia specialist who helps highly driven, sleep deprived professionals feel inexhausted and on edge to finally sleep through the night. She's trained in behavioral sleep medicine through a fellowship with the Gulf Coast Veteran Healthcare System and trained in eating disorder care with the Renfro Center prior to working in private practice. Savannah currently treats individuals with insomnia, nightmares, anxiety, and eating disorders, both in person in Winter Park, Florida, and virtually throughout Florida. And New York. Let's warmly welcome our guest, Savannah Hypes. Welcome.

Savannah: 1:48

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Erin: 1:51

We are super excited to have you. I know, um, We, lack sleep, and I know the older that we've gotten, you think that when you, in college, you can sleep whenever, high school, whenever, then you have kids, and then your whole system's out of whack, at least for me. I've got that mom sleep, but super excited, I know, we've had the aura rings in the past, and we've been like, Erin, you sleep horribly. I'm like, but we have the rings now. Let's really see what the story is. So we both balance off and on about our sleep and how it may or may not work. So I'm ready to learn a few more tricks such as putting my phone down an hour or so before I go to bed or I don't know. that, but it's a good goal. I've actually, this week, I've started a new routine where at 8 o'clock I start getting ready for bed and trying to put all that stuff away. No TVs, trying to really minimize, my interaction with the light.

Savannah: 2:49

Wow. Was that in preparation for this conversation? So you could say you've been trying hard.

John: 2:55

Totally. And sleep, sleep is so important for all of us because, you know, your inability to focus, there's so many things that, that sleep can improve or alter, throughout your day, your mood, everything. So, I'm excited. to learn more about

Erin: 3:12

Yeah, Me too. If you wouldn't mind sharing your story, what got you excited to becoming an insomnia specialist?

Savannah: 3:20

Yeah, so I got my master's degree at Florida State as a master's social worker. so I'm now a licensed clinical social worker. And while I always knew that I wanted to be a therapist and to be helping people, there's a little part of me that doesn't always love the subjectivity of the experience of being a therapist. I like to know that What I'm doing is working and is effective, and there are lots of different kinds of therapies and different modalities, and some of them are more short term, some of them are more long term, and I realized for myself that if I was going to feel good being a therapist, I really wanted to be doing something where I could actively see direct changes, in, in a quick way, in a way that was really tangible. So I was looking for how can I do some extra training? How can I find a specialty that's really going to suit that for me, make me feel really confident in the, the evidence base of the techniques I'm using. And I found this fellowship with the veterans, Gulf coast, healthcare system. And it, the VA is amazing. I will say that time and time again, they're so extremely evidence based in what they do, they do lots of research on their own outcomes and the work that they are doing with veterans. They sponsor a lot of research that other people do, and they're always teaching and training people, so that we can really be offering our veterans the best care. So I got hooked up with them. I did this fellowship program and they had a rotation in behavioral sleep medicine. And once I learned about it, I thought, Oh, yep, this is it. This is for me. I've always been enthralled with the idea of sleep and dreams. And once I got into it, I learned that the treatments that we use for insomnia, which is primarily cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, has decades of research showing that it is the most effective treatment for sleep and that it is effective in a short period of time. I'm not talking months and years that you're having to work on treatment for this. I'm talking six to eight weeks and dramatic change. And so that really spoke to my research obsessed heart. And I thought this has got to be what I, what I spend the rest of my life doing. and I haven't looked back. I love it.

Erin: 5:42

So you're saying in six to eight weeks, typically, you can get someone on a better sleep cycle or better habits for their sleep.

Savannah: 5:53

Absolutely. They, if they're, the recommendations are hard sometimes. If this is not like an easy treatment necessarily. But when you follow the recommendations, change very quickly.

Erin: 6:05

Will you share some of those with us?

Savannah: 6:08

Yeah, absolutely. You mean, the specific recommendations? So it might be helpful first actually to talk about what, what normal healthy sleep looks like and how that changes for adults as they age and get older so that we can pinpoint where are the things that we need to adjust and change.

Erin: 6:27

So you mean eating ice cream, having caffeine, being super high energy before bed is not normal?

Savannah: 6:35

Well, you know, there's some flexibility around those things, but for the most part, your, your brain tells you to be awake and alert in the morning. because of your circadian rhythm. I don't know what you guys may, may already know about the circadian rhythm. is there any, what, what comes to your mind when I say circadian rhythm?

Erin: 6:53

Like your natural way that your body operates, when it wants to wake, when it wants to sleep, when it's overworked, all that.

Savannah: 7:01

Yeah, exactly. It's the timing. It's your brain's clock. It's inward clock that tells your body what time it is, and it tells your body when to be doing certain functions, like secreting certain hormones, like being alert or being sleepy. your body knows what time it is, and it sends that information out to all of your organs and systems. And that's your circadian rhythm. It's your body's clock. And the way that it knows what time it is, is by certain signals. Specifically, light intake. your daylight that you receive during the day goes to your eyes, it shoots back through your optic nerve to a little section in the back of your brain called the suprachiasmatic nucleus. Which is where that clock is housed, and that sends information to the rest of your body saying, Oh, we've received daylight, that must mean it's morning time, and it sends an alerting signal out to the rest of your body saying, Okay, time to get energized, time to start getting hungry, time to start doing all these things. And then once it's the evening and we have not received daylight in a few hours, your brain goes, Hmm, we haven't had that light come in a few hours. It must be nighttime. Let's stop that alerting signal. Let's cut that one for today. We're all done there. So it doesn't send that signal out anymore. And you start to get sleepy. The same thing happens with your daily activities and behaviors. So eating and physical movement are similar to light in that they tell your body what time it is. And they tell your clock, yes, you're on track. We're eating breakfast, which means it is morning. great job, you estimated that time appropriately. I like to think of it as a cuckoo clock. we have a sense throughout the day of what time it is, but then when we hear the clock go off, the cuckoo clock, we go, oh yeah, so it is noon. So it makes sense that I'm hungry right now. Okay, I got it. it confirms it for you. That's what daylight does for us. That's what eating does for us in a routine manner. That's what activities in a routine do is they say, yes, you're on track. You know what time it is. And that can get really off for people who are aging because your eyes start to degenerate and they don't receive daylight as readily. Or, they might be a person who is having some mobility issues, chronic pain, a number of medical complications to where they can't spend as much time outdoors, or they are not as active in a And when those things happen, your brain starts to get a little fuzzy on what, what time exactly is it again? We're not so sure because we haven't had so much light coming the cuckoo clock is like really quiet and you can't, can't quite hear it anymore, which means your brain doesn't know. When to tell your body to be alert, when to send out that signal. So that's why you start to notice you're tired during the day and then at night you're like, not really that tired.'cause your brain's not so sure. It doesn't know when to tell you to be tired or not.

Erin: 9:59

This makes sense, because I often wonder, as we're aging, the fact that we're losing our eyesight and things are changing and it can't bring in all that light, maybe that's why you're not sleeping. It's Oh, and I often wonder too, with the seasonal change, like winter, when it gets, the daylight is shorter and how that affects us. And can we add more light in our house that, keeps us going so we're not super tired or how do we change our patterns from seasons? And it's just so fascinating. I

John: 10:28

I think what she's trying to say too is, She's always probably thinking that my cuckoo clock's broken because I'm waking up so much earlier than she is. And I constantly think hers is. And so when it comes to couples or marriage or, you know, people that are sharing space, how come their circadian, circadian, rhythm doesn't become very synced. yeah, how come we can't sync ours up? she's constantly. Wanting mine to be more similar to hers. And I constantly want hers to be more similar to mine, which I think would help us both if they were very similar.

Erin: 11:09

Well, tell her what time you get up in the morning and she'll probably be like, oh, that's why.

John: 11:13

I get up at four 50 in the morning and get my day going, get a workout in and meditation and all that type of stuff.

Erin: 11:20

about six o'clock my body starts going okay, and between six and seven, depending on how I'm feeling that day, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to get up.

Savannah: 11:27

Yeah. When you said earlier that you're starting your bedtime routine at 8:00 PM I was like, whoa. That's pretty early

Erin: 11:33

It is'cause I'm a night owl, so I'm trying to adjust and, and do different things and

John: 11:38

where, where she can, she can put in a movie at nine 30, 10 o'clock and watch the whole movie. And I'm like nine 30. My there's a little timer that goes off in my eyelids. It doesn't matter if I'm in a movie theater, it doesn't matter where I am. If I'm not doing something really physical, I'm going to sleep period.

Savannah: 11:56

think you guys have both hit on reasons why those, why those are different. So one is biology. Everyone has a little bit of a different biology, a little bit different of genetics, and that plays into your sleep. Some people are quote unquote good, easy sleepers. Some people are, genetically, just have a harder time with sleep. That might be like a predisposing factor of insomnia For other people, their circadian rhythm is naturally going to be a little bit different. There's a range, let's say the average American or person is going to be waking up around 6 or 7 and then getting tired going to bed between 10 and 11. Like maybe that's average, but everyone falls on a spectrum somewhere. Their circadian rhythm, just biologically, is slightly different. so maybe some people naturally feel like they want to get up at 5 and get tired at 9, 9 or 10. And other people naturally don't really want to get up until 9 or 10 and then they don't want to go to sleep until 11 midnight. So those are some natural differences that are happening just biologically from person to person with your circadian rhythm. Sometimes that gets to be really extreme and it becomes a circadian rhythm disorder. which is another sleep disorder where it's really disrupting your life. For example, your circadian rhythm naturally shifts over your lifespan. Children start with waking up very, very early and going to bed very, very early, and they're that's the circadian rhythm they have. Adolescents, it does a whole shift. Adolescents naturally are not going to get sleepy until much later in the evening, like 11, 12, 1 a. m. And then they naturally are going to want to sleep until later in the morning. Unfortunately, our society villainizes that. And so our adolescents are chronically sleep deprived, which is a whole soapbox I could go on, but I won't right now. And then as we age, it starts to shift back in the other direction again. And when we get to our older stages of life, it switches the other way in a pretty severe way sometimes. sometimes older adults suffer from what's called advanced phase circadian rhythm disorder, which is where their phase has shifted to the point that they're getting sleepy at six or seven and they're wanting to go to bed. And then they're waking up at three or four and not able to go back to sleep and it's really disrupting their life. So there's like a whole spectrum of this and we can use light and behavior timing to strategize around that. for example, John, you were talking about I get up at 4. 50 because that's when I feel like I want to get up and I want to do my stuff. And I get really tired and sleepy when it comes to 10 p. m. and I really want to go to sleep. If you wanted to change that, you could make yourself stay up later regularly. You could expose yourself to a lot more light in the evening and make sure you plan lots of activities that are fun for you to do in the evening. until your body gets tired enough that it starts to shift and it lets you sleep a little bit later. so there are lots of things we could do to adjust your routine. And that's oftentimes what I tell older adults as well, is to schedule a lot of evening activities to keep your body moving and awake so that you can sleep in the time frame that feels better for you, if that's what you would like and that works better with your social system. Or if you decide that you feel good going to bed at 8pm and waking up at 3 or 4am and that feels really good for you and you just have adapted to it, then great. Maybe we don't need to change anything. So it just really depends on what your goals are.

Erin: 15:31

interesting. I I would like to go back to when she first started talking and. The normal hours, six to seven,

Savannah: 15:41

average. Not normal. Not normal. Average.

Erin: 15:45

that.

John: 15:46

Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Savannah. I appreciate that. very average. I, I understand what you're saying and, and staying active and being in a more lit space and keeping a lot of activities so that if you wanted to change things up and be able to sleep a little bit longer in the morning and, and stay up a little bit It's a way to train yourself to be able to do that. However, I do know that in our society, for the most part, people, they're working throughout the day, they're keeping themselves very busy, sometimes workouts during the middle of the day, they're drinking coffee, they're doing different activities, right? When they get done making dinner, having dinner, they eat this heavy meal, they sit down and they start relaxing and their body starts relaxing. To change. And a lot of people aren't super active because they're putting in a movie. They're relaxing. They're reading a book. they're starting to tone down. Isn't that, isn't that correct? And then how does, I know that you said as, as time changes, as we get older and stuff, some of those things change, how did naps play into this? Because I noticed that for a while, what I was doing is. Instead of drinking coffee throughout the day, I would just drink coffee in the mornings, and then what I would do is midday, midday, I'd take a 20 minute power nap. Maybe I didn't even fall asleep, but I'd park my car someplace. I'm, doing marketing sales. I'd park my car underneath the tree or something like that, put my seat back and I just close my eyes for 20 minutes and give myself a break. So there's no activity. I noticed that I seem to have more energy throughout the rest of the day. How does that affect sleep and stuff? Is that okay to do? Is that not recommended?

Savannah: 17:32

It's really a case by case in terms of, people who are, let's say, middle aged adult, younger adult, middle aged adult, I typically don't recommend napping because another thing that regulates your sleep, so we talked about the circadian rhythm, which is a primary regulator of your but another factor that regulates the depth of your is called your sleep drive, your homeostatic sleep drive. Homeostatic is a fancy word that just means it keeps equilibrium. So your sleep drive needs, it's similar to your drive for food or water, It needs to build up throughout the day. So if you like ate a big bowl of ice cream at 4 p. m., how hungry would you be for dinner at 5 Maybe not that hungry. maybe you could have some dinner, but you'd get full a little earlier than It's sometimes similar when you have a nap during the day, that your drive for sleep, which is actually a chemical pressure that builds up on your brain throughout the day, the longer you've gone without sleep, it builds and builds and builds. As soon as you have sleep, it starts to decrease. So if you do too much sleeping throughout the day, by the time you get to 10 or 11, your sleep drive is down here instead of being up here. So you'll go to sleep, but you'll wake up in a couple of hours and have a hard time going back to But this is different for everyone. for people who, like you, which my gut reaction, of course I haven't done a full evaluation with you, but from what you're saying, it sounds like you're a person who on average needs a longer amount of sleep. Everyone's need for sleep is different, it's like a shoe size. the average is 7 to 8, which doesn't mean normal, it just means average. Some people feel great on six hours. Some people feel rough unless they get ten hours. Everyone's different.

John: 19:25

six. She's the 10 for

Savannah: 19:28

Oh, interesting.

Erin: 19:29

it's not. This is, I'm going to be honest here. I'm going to spill the beans. I do like the 7 to 8, there's times depending on what my days are like. If I have really heavy days, then I want to sleep that 7 to 8. Or sometimes I'll do a 5 to 6. But John, he does get up earlier and does stay later, but when I've said, Hey, let's sleep in, don't get up. He will sleep forever. It's like his body, like you say, naturally wants that sleep. So I feel like he deprives his body sleep sometimes, if that makes sense. Like he really should get up at a seven, eight o'clock, but that four 50 cause he wants to get his stuff, personal stuff done and out of the way. You know?

John: 20:16

think, I think there's, there's a little bit of truth to that, but I do find myself, personally, like if I get six to six and a half hours of sleep, I feel great. However, if I get seven and a half, eight hours of sleep, I just feel exhausted all day. I feel like I might as well just stay in bed because, I get, it's almost like I too much sleep. And, so I think we all have a happy spot where we function best. I wish her happy spot was the exact same as mine. I think that we would function better

Erin: 20:46

Look, I'm trying to go to bed earlier. I'm a night owl girl, and I, I, I have adjusted a lot.

Savannah: 20:53

whatever works for you. You guys, that's a lot. of the work too that I do sometimes when I'm using CBT for insomnia is I'm helping couples communicate about it because that can be a rough spot when you're trying to have connecting time in the evening, but your urges are completely like opposite time wise. That can be really rough.

Erin: 21:11

Oh, that's a, that's another topic for another

Savannah: 21:13

Yeah.

Erin: 21:14

for sure. What are some of the most common, patterns that change as we sleep? what really, we know we've talked about season and light, but what really starts to happen as we age?

Savannah: 21:27

So like I mentioned, the circadian rhythm shifting forward is one of the primary things that changes. Another thing is that as we get older, we naturally start to just get a little bit less sleep. instead of that 7 8 hour range on average, people start getting a little bit shorter sleep. and that's just a natural change that happens.

Erin: 21:47

I was going to say, is that because your body is not as active or is it because your body doesn't need to heal as much because you're not doing as much and you're not overexhausting it? Like maybe now you're thinking about work and family and running kids and now it's like my time, my body has that time throughout the day already be slow and heal.

Savannah: 22:06

So research wise, we actually don't know exactly yet. There, there's a lot of studies being done about this, but we don't know exactly the reason why that change happens. What we do know is that older adults who are not experiencing something like insomnia or obstructive sleep apnea or another, sleep disorder tends to still feel like they're getting restful sleep even when they're getting a little bit less another thing that changes naturally is that they're going to wake up more frequently throughout the night. That's just a aging. you're going to have to use the restroom more frequently. You might have other medical conditions or chronic that wake you up or make you feel uncomfortable. So those are just natural changes that happen. And it doesn't mean that you cannot continue to get good quality rest. you don't have to tell yourself, Oh, I only slept five, six hours last night. I can't believe it. This is going to be a horrible day. Thank you. You might feel great. You might feel great. A lot of people find that they're not quite as worried even while they're getting less sleep. What does become a problem is when you're getting less sleep and then you're really having a hard time during the day. You're wanting to take those long naps. You're, you're having a really hard time keeping your eyes open. At 7 p. m. you're having a hard time wanting to engage with friends and you're you're starting to really worry about it, worry that it's going to affect your Those are the times when it would be to seek out some support or sleep treatment or talk with your doctor about it. when it's really impacting your, your day to day

Erin: 23:39

I was just thinking, When I sleep, I notice I get a little more restless, so it's very true where normally I could just sleep and wake up in the same spot, but now I feel myself like, okay, the sheets not comfortable or I'm hot or my feet are just restless for whatever reason, or a mind spinning.

Savannah: 23:55

Exactly. There's a whole host of reasons why our sleep might become disrupted. And for a lot of those, there are things we can do about that. but you don't have to just suffer forever thinking, Oh, this is just how it is now. there are natural changes that happen with your sleep like we've talked about, but there are also ways that we can adapt to

Erin: 24:13

Are there certain medications or certain natural things we can take to help our bodies sleep better?

Savannah: 24:21

Yes, so melatonin use is usually a good option for older adults. it helps your circadian rhythm because your circadian rhythm tells your body when to secrete hormones and melatonin is one of those hormones that gets secreted. And the timing of that confirms, sends another cuckoo signal out that confirms what time So that can really help as well. Or if you're wanting to shift your circadian rhythm a little bit later. that can help you time timing wise of when you decide to take it to shift your body's clock. in terms of medication, I think it's important to talk with your prescriber about medications that have, like activating side effects. some, some medications tend to have a kind of an alerting side effect, like it, it just makes you feel more energized, and other medications tend to have a more sedating side effect, and that might be the purpose of the medication, or that might just be something that goes along with it, but especially, older adults tend to be taking more medications the older they get. So they should really be talking with their doctor if they're having trouble sleeping about, okay, are, should I be changing the timing of any of these meds? Do I need to switch this one to the evening or this one to the daytime? that can really help things. And I also really encourage people to talk with your prescriber about trying to avoid the sedative hypnotic medications. so typical sleep meds like Ambien, those can actually be dangerous for older adults who are more at risk of falls. Because that sedation effect is going to cause you a lot of difficulty with being able to keep yourself stable if you do have to get up in the middle of the night. So those, really sedating medications or hypnotic medications are really not recommended for older adults to use long term.

John: 26:09

how does food or when we eat food affect our sleep?

Savannah: 26:14

That's a great question that I think a lot of people are learning to ask now, but who hadn't thought about it much before, is that eating is another one of those circadian markers. one of those routine behaviors that tells our brain what time it is. if we're eating three meals a day and every day we eat around the same time, our brain gets used to that routine and it knows, okay, so usually when I've eaten, I usually do this next. And when I eat dinner, it's usually around three hours later that it's time that the sun goes down. Like it knows that routine. So if you're doing a totally different routine every day, if you're skipping breakfast, if you're eating lunch at three, if you're totally switching it up every day. Your brain goes, wait, what meal is this? Is it morning? Is it night? I don't know. And it gets really confused and it doesn't know when to tell you to be alert versus to be sleepy. I don't tend to focus as much on the nutritional aspect of the foods. I think it's important for us to have a variety and balance in what we eat. but there's a lot of like diet culture and like villainization of food in our society. And honestly, I see that tend to be a bigger impact on health, than the actual food we're eating, like our perception of food and the way that we think about ourselves as we're eating certain foods, I've seen to have a greater impact, on our health. Specifically, research shows that internalized weight bias is a specific factor that is linked to poor sleep. if we are receiving messages from society that we, are bad because of our weight status or the size of our body, especially if this is coming from our healthcare providers, which often it is, this is new research, like the last year or two, this has been coming out. and I'm a big proponent of the health at every size approach, meaning that you can be healthy at whatever size body you have. You can also be unhealthy at whatever size body you have, and it's really about those choices as opposed to what you look like.

John: 28:14

as I'm just thinking about food and stuff. I think that, even a bigger factor for some people is either alcohol or caffeinated drinks. there's so many sport drinks out there now. It's interesting though. I can drink coffee and I can go to sleep perfectly fine. And I know other people that can as well. So if you can just, I know this isn't a discussion about food and. Drinks and stuff, but it does affect sleep for, for certain people. and even sugar, right? How much sugar you're intaking at certain times of day, is that correct? That, that will also have an effect on our sleep. Or is that a

Savannah: 28:51

So in terms of alcohol and caffeine, yes. specifically for older adults, another change that we see as we get older is our metabolism slows down and it takes longer for certain things like caffeine or alcohol to metabolize in older adults. So for those people, I'm typically recommending that they cut off those earlier in the day. For most people, I recommend anywhere from 9 to 10 hours prior to when you plan to go to bed is when you should have, have your last caffeine or don't have any caffeine past then. So for a lot of people, that's somewhere around noon or 1 p. m. that I'm recommending. Try not to have caffeine after that. And then alcohol, you typically don't want to be drinking alcohol within two to three hours of bedtime. Of course, we live our life, and this is flexible, and these are recommendations that, if you're really having trouble sleeping, like this is, these are some things that you should try, but if you're sleeping well, I'm not the alcohol police telling you can't, you can't have your after dinner drink. so I think it's really you being mindful about noticing how different drinks affect you. And each person's biology is really unique. for some people, caffeine doesn't affect them the same way others do. I could have, a coffee in the morning, and if I haven't eaten enough, or if I just happen to have not slept well the night before, I'm gonna be, like, convulsing, but that's unique to me. That's not an every person thing, so it's just really different person to person, and you've gotta be mindful about your own experience.

Erin: 30:21

I think that's what's been fun about doing our podcast is that we're learning there's a lot of similarities to everything in our body. And it's sleep, it's paying attention, it's being really aware, oh I ate this, or oh I slept like this, or this is what I did before bed, or through the day, or how certain things affect you, to really get in tune with your body and what works, and I love that, it's a fun journey to figure out,

John: 30:48

what I find interesting though is it's not like a a one time fix that that everybody's so unique in their own way, from what we eat to when we eat, it, to how many hours of sleep we get. And you really have to be an advocate for yourself and figure out what works best for you. and, Working with somebody like yourself or somebody else, whether it's fitness, nutrition, whatever it is, it's, it's best to always work on creating a and I think it's really important for people to plan for that individual themselves because, how I sleep or the quality of my sleep or whether I dream or don't dream or whatever is going to be quite different than the person sitting right next to me.

Erin: 31:30

Like he literally can fall asleep and in five minutes he is having such a vivid dream and he talks about it. Where me, it's like, it takes me a little bit and if I even remember, but it's just so interesting.

Savannah: 31:43

I love that perspective, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump in because there's something I want to make sure we don't miss, which that perspective of listening to your body and advocating for yourself is so important. And for older adults, I think it's also very important for their caregiver to be involved in knowing about how their sleep is going, and if they're having a problem, being able to advocate for them. we do know that there are specific links with insomnia and obstructive sleep apnea and dementia. And if someone's sleep concern is not being taken seriously, we know that there could be some later effects down the line. Sometimes it takes 10 or 15 years, but we could start seeing those mood and memory problems come up. And the research shows us that when we treat obstructive sleep apnea or insomnia in older adults. it decreases their risk of dementia by about 20 percent, which I think is really important to know. And it's really hard sometimes for older adults, especially in those later years, to regulate some of these things on their own. They might have a lot of trouble, maybe it's mood or memory or cognition wise, remembering that they had a goal to be up, get up and get out of bed when they wake up versus staying in bed and resting because their body hurts. Or they may not remember why it's important for them to take multiple walks outside during the day. And they sometimes need that caregiver to also be informed about sleep health, so that the caregiver can say, Hey, I know we had talked about this before, but here's a reminder. Let's go take a walk. Let's get outside. I want your body to be feeling good today. And remember, we want to, play cards tonight. I would, it would be so fun if you felt alert and able to do that. So if we can keep you active during this day, you'll have a better chance of not feeling like you're going to drop asleep at 7

Erin: 33:33

I love that. I know we talked about a little bit like insomnia and, a few other things, but if we could really dive in, because I'm not even sure, what are some of the disorders that can happen or are happening to people? And insomnia, I've heard it, but what does that really mean?

Savannah: 33:52

definitely. Because there's a lot of people, I actually recently did an interview series where I was talking to people who experience insomnia and who are working in the tech industry, because I had a hunch that there was like an overlap between that particular profession and sleep difficulty, which there was, I found, but I was talking to them and so many people reached out to me and said, yeah, I think I have insomnia, but they might really have had obstructive sleep apnea or a circadian rhythm disorder, and they just grouped all the sleep issues as insomnia. So most people don't actually know the differences. Insomnia is, a dissatisfaction with the quality or quantity of your sleep. Meaning that either you're having a difficult time falling asleep, or a difficult time staying asleep, or maybe a difficult time waking up much too early. And this is causing you to either not get enough sleep throughout the night, or maybe you're getting enough sleep but it's feeling not very restful. You're feeling really fatigued and exhausted throughout the day. So that's basically what insomnia is, and that's what it can look like. a different sleep disorder, which is also more common in older adults, is obstructive sleep apnea. And this is a breathing disorder that happens when there becomes some kind of blockage, in your airway as you're sleeping. And it can show up as snoring. You could be snoring really loudly. And not really think anything is wrong with your sleep, but find yourself really exhausted during the day or dozing off during the day. And if someone, maybe a bed partner or a caregiver, has heard you snoring very loudly, like really loudly or maybe has witnessed you stop breathing during your sleep and then do that kind of gasping that big snore and then a pause and then like, like, I don't know if you've heard that before. It's scary when you do that's not just intense snoring that could actually be you not getting oxygen while you're asleep and that has a lot of really unfortunate health effects like leading to Yeah. stroke, heart attack, other heart disease conditions. so we really do want to identify that and treat that. research shows us that 75 percent of people in the U. S. who have sleep apnea are going undiagnosed if they don't realize. so that's really important to notice.

John: 36:11

Wow. I know. I'm learning so much about sleep.

Savannah: 36:15

It's good stuff.

John: 36:17

is. Very complex. I'm just curious and this is for me. I hope our listeners are curious about this too, but, why does some people dream and others don't, or you don't remember your dreams? sometimes I have some pretty intense, pretty incredible dreams or whatever and I wake up and they're gone. And, thank goodness sometimes I talk in my sleep because then she can tell me what I'm dreaming about.

Erin: 36:39

I am going to share this story because it sticks out. I remember him saying a few choice curse words, and we, he had to get the bat to kill the snake.

John: 36:49

Yeah. There was a snake that was, we threw in the oven and it was him And sister busting through the glass. And so I was yelling at my sister to kill the blankety blank blank with a back. And I was, I guess we were laying in bed next to each other and I was sound asleep and I was screaming this yes in my sleep. Uh,'cause I didn't want this big snake to get out but you know, I don't think I've ever heard her talking her sleep. Or snore or anything like that. I Yeah, not a nose breather. Her nose is too small to be able to breathe through that thing. But, but so if you could just touch lightly on on kind of a better understanding of why, sometimes we don't remember our dreams or, or some of us talk in our sleep So what are some of those things all about?

Savannah: 37:37

Yeah. So there's a lot of undiscovered things about dreaming that we haven't quite put a finger on yet. In terms of the research, we don't we don't know for certain right now why people remember their dreams or don't. We do know that everyone does dream and they just don't many times they just don't remember it. But everyone experiences the stage of sleep called rapid eye movement. And that's primarily where dreaming happens. And this is an important stage of sleep because it helps with, memory consolidation, like your short term and your long term memory is organizing things that you've experienced throughout your day and it's putting it in boxes in your long term memory and cementing those. Sometimes dreaming is an important process in that, that it's, it's categorizing information from your day. the from what I've seen in the research and this is culture by culture. We could talk in different ways about this. And of course, I would respect anyone's cultural beliefs around this. But from what we have seen in the research, there's not really a whole lot of meaning to our It's really just that our dreams are our, our brain sending off signals, trying to categorize information and process information from what we've been experiencing throughout the day. And it also helps us practice experiencing emotions, practice responding to different So that's why a lot of the time we might have anxious dreams or sad dreams. Or boring dreams, because our brain is doing different things with that information. It's processing it, it's learning, it's practicing how it might want to respond in those situations. like a practice run for during the day. So it, it really is doing a lot of useful brain work during that time.

Erin: 39:23

I notice sometimes if I watch, if I watch certain things or if I have a thought that's heavy on my mind, that becomes part of my, my dream or at nighttime it's Oh my gosh, that's, that was crazy. I watched that movie and now my world is spinning it in a different direction or I'm continuing the movie or

Savannah: 39:42

Exactly, because your mind is processing that information, okay, we just took in a lot of info from that horror movie, and we need to, decide what information is important for us to hold on to, what information actually relates to our safety and our needs, and what information was just entertaining and doesn't really pertain to my day to day life. So it's sorting all of that out. which is really important too when it comes to trauma. Nightmares often are a symptom of trauma, and it's part of your brain trying to rehearse a situation, figure out what your needs are, what your feelings are, what your safety requirements are, and decide how it wants to So that's actually really important that it's okay if we're having nightmares in response to trauma. However, if it's go, if it's ongoing and it's causing us a lot of distress. There's also treatment for that to help your brain move into processing that content during the day, as opposed to having to rely on processing it at night.

Erin: 40:40

Working in the veterans for a little bit, do you feel that a lot of them have unresolved issues or they haven't talked to somebody or have PTSD? Because this generation, they've seen a lot of war and different things than our newer generations. And what really should they do or, if anything, to process it?

Savannah: 40:58

Absolutely. I think there's been a lot of change in the cultural expectations in our society about the appropriateness of discussing your feelings when it comes to military service. it's much more acceptable now to be verbally processing and discussing those things. but the, the generation that's aging right now that we're caring for often grew up in a, in a Sociocultural expectation that they shouldn't be needing to discuss those things so they have that all like like stuck in them. Their brain hasn't really categorized it and decided what its safety needs were. So our brain tries to do that via dreams, via nightmares, via ruminations throughout the day, but if we try and block it. It can't get the job done. So it's going to make us keep rehearsing it over and over. So my recommendations for those people, especially our older adults who have a lot of those memories, just kind of like locked up inside them, is to decide if that is really causing an issue for them throughout the day. And if it would be worth it to them to return to that and maybe talk with their loved ones or their family or even their health care providers about it. Because there are a lot of short term therapies that could help them make peace with some of those experiences so they don't have to keep reliving it or blocking it out and just being numb, numb to their life.

Erin: 42:26

if they don't want to, because they're from a generation of we don't talk and they're just I don't want to talk, are there things that they can self do to self heal? are there certain meditations, is there certain questions to ask themselves to release that? Because you and I both know, not everybody will do it, but it's important that they're at least somehow to self heal.

Savannah: 42:48

I definitely think meditation and mindfulness could be a big part of that. Because our body holds so much tension around those experiences. And if we're not willing to verbally put words to some of those, we can at least sense it in our body and practice. there's a specific exercise I use with people in my sleep work called progressive muscle relaxation. And it's where you systematically head to toe, go through each muscle group. You practice putting your attention on it, noticing it, tightening it for a few, for five or 10 seconds, and then releasing it and letting yourself notice the sense of relaxation that kind of floods those muscles. So it's a way of bringing relaxation into your body, inviting yourself to be aware of where you're holding that tension. And it might be due to emotional tension or your past experiences that are being housed in certain parts of your body. Bringing awareness to that and practicing getting in touch with that tension and then, and then releasing it and focusing on the sensations of peace and relaxation that come in. That's a way of inviting cleansing and safety into your body.

John: 44:00

I'm glad you asked that because there are so many people like they're either afraid of the expense of hiring somebody such as yourself to help them, get better sleep. and men, especially, I shouldn't say this because it's such a general statement, but I feel like men sometimes are so proud. They don't want to admit they're having challenges with something, whether it's sleep or whatever. They'd rather just be tough and go, yeah, I don't have any issues or, I have no problems, but deep down inside they do. And when it goes to, considering finding somebody or getting that support, how do they find somebody or what do you recommend the process is, for. Trying to research to get yourself that support. You need one, either by hiring somebody such as yourself or by finding things, that they can do to improve their sleep. How do they get that started?

Savannah: 45:00

So there I think are a lot of great resources in the community depending on where you live. the VA is a great place to look, for like resources and recommendations. They have a lot of free resources online, the VA. they have a lot of like education online about how to respond to these different experiences, whether it's PTSD, whether it's insomnia. but also talking with your doctor about it, I think is really useful because you can tell them, Hey, I don't want to go see a therapist, but I need some other resources. Where can you send me? There are oftentimes in the community, there will be like free mindfulness or meditation groups, or like Tai Chi groups, things where you're, you're moving your body in a gentle way, you're making some maybe social connections and that promotes healing for you that does help and assist with your sleep that can also help and assist with your experience of anxiety, depression, trauma. so looking for those resources can be really helpful. I think there are a lot of useful online spaces, but I know some older adults have a harder time navigating online spaces. So that's why I'm thinking, go to your community center, talk with your, your medical team about it. If you're comfortable asking your family to do some online research for you and just send you like directly to the places that you should go for your area, I think that would be really useful too, just depending on your comfort level. In terms of finding a sleep provider, You can definitely talk to your doctor and get referrals for your area, but you could also just look at, there's a website called. I, it's either I think you just Google C. B. T. I. directory. Cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, and it'll bring up a worldwide directory of providers in your area who are doing this work. so there's a lot of ways that you can just quickly and easily find someone, whether that's an in person provider that you want to or just different meditation apps. one specifically that I would recommend for sleep is called CBTI Coach, which is a free app that the VA created. And it has a lot of the education about sleep that I shared here today in the app that you can go and learn on your own. It also has like meditation resources, relaxation exercises on there that you can use. And then it also has a way that you can track your sleep using the app if you're comfortable or wanting to do that.

Erin: 47:28

That's awesome. Yeah, I have two more questions real quick. if someone isolates themself and they're just not around, how does that affect their sleep, if it does at all? And then my second I'll come back to.

Savannah: 47:47

Okay.

John: 47:48

Well, along with that, along with isolation is loneliness, right? Because a lot of times, there are maybe people that haven't been, they haven't gotten married or something like that. And then they get older and they start getting lonely and partner. They lost a partner. And, so maybe, If you could touch a little bit on how people, how that affects people sleep too, because I know it probably does it.

Savannah: 48:16

Absolutely. I would say it goes along the same line as light intake and eating schedule. Your social schedule does the same thing for your circadian rhythm. When you are regularly doing activities with other people, it reminds your brain what time of day it is. Because obviously when you sleep, you're typically not doing a lot of interacting with other people. So if you're awake and you're interacting, your brain goes, Oh, this is the time we're supposed to be awake and alert. so it can be really important to really try and schedule those activities, especially if you find yourself getting really drowsy early in the evening, try and schedule activities with other people, in the early evening that can help keep you accountable with staying active. and this is also actually a intervention that we use for depression as well. It's called behavioral activation. You tend to feel better when you are doing more, which is interesting. People who are depressed feel like really intimidated by the idea of really doing anything. But they often report that if they do take, take the initiative and get themselves to, that movie or that dinner with a friend or whatever it was, that card game, They usually do end up feeling more energized, even though it felt like it took them so much energy to get there. So it's really the same thing with your sleep and with older adults, the more active they can be in their social life. it's going to do the same thing for their body as. eating on a regular schedule, having light intake on a regular schedule. It's really going to help your brain feel confident about what time of day it is and also helps with your mood and your sense of connection.

Erin: 50:01

Okay, red lights, technology, and a good routine for when we fall asleep. It's all all together.

Savannah: 50:09

Yep, exactly. So I recommend people have a wind down routine that some somewhere, within the hour before they're going to bed and that could be anything that you experience as relaxing, but just setting the intention that I'm going to slow down and relax my body. I'm going to decrease the arousal in my mind and in my, in my physiology. for some people that actually might mean using technology. there's a little bit of myth busting I'm going to do here because all of our old, it's a debate. All of all of our, past sleep researchers have said technology is like a no go. And the idea behind that is because there's light that your eyes are intaking and that it might, shift your circadian rhythm. However, the more recent research that we're seeing is that that light really isn't making a big impact as long as we're getting a lot of light during the day. So if you're in a dark house all day long, and then you watch a movie with a brightly lit screen, yeah, that's gonna impact your sleep and your circadian rhythm. But if you're getting lots of daylight throughout the day, and then you dim your lights in the evening around your house, but you use your phone, or you watch a movie, you turn the brightness a little bit down, that's perfectly fine. The, the light during the day will, will win out, will overpower the little bit of light that you're getting in the What's more important about technology use from what we're seeing in the more recent research is your level of engagement and arousal. So if you are in bed watching an exciting like horror film and then you say, okay, it's over. I'm gonna go to sleep. That's not gonna work out too well for you because your physical body is engaged in excitement and tension and activation and your mind is thinking like how could they they shouldn't have opened that door like you're really in it. playing video games. Video games are uniquely designed to hold the user in this perfect state in between difficulty and ease and enjoyment. That's what they're designed to do, to make you play for hours and hours and hours because it holds you right in the middle of the difficulty and the enjoyment that you're getting from it. those can be difficult prior to sleep because it keeps you really engaged and alert. If you're playing a boring video game, like if you're on your phone doing sudoku, but it's a screen It doesn't matter because you're, unless you're like a really intense Sudoku player, it, it, your arousal level is going to be decreasing as you play that and as you're winding down for bed.

Erin: 52:44

I play like the dot games where you connect things like things that I don't have to think it's very mindless and it's a debate that we have because he plays Sudoku sometimes I'm like that's a game I don't play when I sleep because then I really have to think or if I'm just connecting colors or if I'm doing this it's just like it's a way for my brain just to go okay

John: 53:03

I don't play games usually. Usually what, what happens with me is I walk into the bedroom. I pulled the sheets back. I get in bed and within five minutes I'm completely out where shit then I'll toss and turn. I'll maybe wake up briefly and look over and it's an hour later and she's still playing this dot game

Erin: 53:22

It's not an hour later. To him it feels like it. it. could be ten to fifteen minutes later. Yeah, it's an hour later. It's not.

Savannah: 53:29

I feel like I've touched a hot spot. This

Erin: 53:33

little bit. Just a little bit. Cause we have that debate.

Savannah: 53:37

to be mindful, is to notice your own patterns and to do some experimentation. Try, try a week just reading your book before you go to bed and try a week playing your game before you go to bed and see if it promotes you to stay awake longer doing one or the other. See if you feel more relaxed doing one or the other. This is all trial and error.

Erin: 53:58

My thing is I have so many things going on my mind at nighttime when everyone's sleeping is when I get super creative. So for me to go to bed and not have something to take that off my mind is very hard. And so I play that game and just trying to get him to go, the research says I'm like, but I, know my body. I, this is what works for me. So I'm

John: 54:19

intentional. So I don't read a book for enjoyment. I read a book because I want to become educated more about something. Or if usually if I'm online, I'm researching something to help me sleep better or help me eat better or whatever. I'm, I constantly, and I think I go too much overboard with this, trying to utilize every waking moment. And to, to accomplish something right? Instead of having those moments to really unwind and relax and enjoy. And I think she's better with that. Definitely better with doing some things that she enjoys and giving herself that downtime where I don't know why, but it's Oh, I gotta learn this. I gotta do this. I got it. You know?

Savannah: 55:03

And that, that's a predisposing factor for insomnia, is people who have that little bit more of like intense personality that they have to be super efficient, get everything done, like that kind of intensity. It creates tension in our body. So if you're five minutes before you go to bed, trying really hard to get something done, it might be harder for you to fall asleep. It sounds like for you, it's pretty easy. So thankfully that hasn't disrupted your sleep. But if too many other, if too many other factors line up, that could be something that puts you over the edge into having a real sleep problem.

John: 55:34

Yeah, I mean, I literally, by the time I go to bed, I pass out. it's it's down time, right? It's oh, oh, that's, yeah. It's not oh, okay, let's talk, or whatever. No, it's, uh,

Erin: 55:46

or whatever. No, it's, it's,

Savannah: 55:56

yeah. and I would say it's less about what you do and more about how you feel while you're doing it and and having the same reliable routine every time, or at least most of the time. Yeah, consistency so that you're really giving your body a lot of feedback of, okay, this is what's happening next. It's like when you're raising children and you're having to give them a lot of information when it comes to transitions in between activities, you're giving them those cues at 30 minutes at 15 minutes at 10 minutes about. Here's what we're gearing up to do next. It really helps.

Erin: 56:28

The red light, does that, is that beneficial to have in a bedroom? Especially if you're getting up in the night to go to the restroom, does that help so you stay in a deeper stage?

Savannah: 56:39

I haven't personally done a lot of research on, on red light. I'm sure you could find information that tells you one, that tells you both things, right? I haven't really seen anything compelling that, that was consistently enough in the research that made me feel like I needed to do that. I definitely would say for older adults. Who are at more at risk of falls to have some kind of dim, dim light that is in their room. but make sure the room stays at least much darker than their daytime functioning room. And spend as much time outside of their bedroom in a well lit area during the day as possible.

John: 57:15

Okay, Before she, she always asks this one question and she gets really excited about it at the end of our conversation. However, I really need to ask this because this is something that I've always wondered about when it comes to sleep. Every individual is different, but when it comes to best practices, what is the healthiest way after you've had your evening of sleep, what is the healthiest way to wake up? Yeah. is it best to have, a fire alarm going off that jolts you out of sleep? Or is it better to transition gently into

Erin: 57:50

my gosh, some shots are being taken! No,

Savannah: 57:53

Yeah.

John: 57:54

I'm just curious.

Savannah: 57:56

The best way is the way that works for you. So it, yeah, I'm gonna just be flat about that. Yeah. if the people, people frequently who are in a solid routine, the more routine they can have, especially with their light exposure, helps their body to be able to get ready for transitions like we were just talking about and from sleeping to waking is a transition that if it's always occurring around the same time every day, it's And your body knows that because you're always giving it light at certain times of day and all those other routine behaviors. then it's more likely that it will be ready to wake up if it's gotten the amount of sleep it needed and if it knows what the routine is. So if you're constantly getting up at different times every day, if you sleep in on the weekends, but get up early on the weekdays and you keep switching back and forth, you're going to have a harder time with that transition. Some people just sleep really deeply. And they have a stronger experience with sleep inertia, sleep inertia is, the, that pressure that, that keeps you asleep and it's like a fog. You have to fight through for a few minutes when you're transitioning from sleep to wake and just biologically, some people have a much stronger sleep inertia than others. For me, I can, have conversations that I don't remember in those few minutes between sleeping and waking, or I'll have, I'll have dreams and I'll be like, so we're gonna do that thing tonight, right? And they're like, what? We've never talked about that. But in, but in my brain, in those moments between sleeping and waking, I thought we had talked about that. So for everyone, it's really different. Experiment with some different things, in a, in a systematic way and see what works for you.

John: 59:37

so thank you so much, you've been absolutely, you've been absolutely amazing. And, I'm going to ask this question. Cause I know Erin wants to ask this question, but I'm going to ask it instead today. So, um, yeah, so this, this is something that is very dear to Erin and I, it. It doesn't have a lot to do with sleep, except, we don't get a lot of it when we do this. Yeah. so when it comes to travel adventures, things you love to do that just feed your soul, whereas maybe a place that you have always wanted to go that you haven't gone, what's on your adventure list, or maybe some place that you've gone that you highly recommend people like ourselves or other listeners are listening to this, that they might be interested to try.

Savannah: 1:00:23

would love it at some point to explore Asia and India. I think those are, those are cultures that I have not had the opportunity to interact with as much as I wish. and I know there's so much richness there and so much I could learn from and so much beauty that I would really love to experience. I have been to, to Germany, to England, England, Britain. So there's, I've gotten, and I also come from, I have German in my family, so I've gotten to connect, with that side of things for myself. and I've been to Italy in a very, I'm also Italian. I've been to Italy and on a very short trip, I wish that could have been longer. but I definitely would love to go see Asia at some point and like really, really learn from them.

Erin: 1:01:08

I, I was blessed 12 years. And definitely, if it's a country you can get to, it's just, You The people are beautiful. The culture is beautiful. It's just I highly recommend it.

John: 1:01:19

Yeah. We are going there in 2025. We already have started. It's a family reunion. Yeah. going back to Yeah. so I'm pretty excited about that. so Asia is a place I've never been. we did go to Indonesia that wasn't too far away and a beautiful culture. The Indonesian islands are, are beautiful list. Yeah.

Erin: 1:01:41

it on

Savannah: 1:01:43

Well, thanks so much. you guys.

Erin: 1:01:45

thank you. This is, I, you, we get into these subjects and we just want to keep diving deeper and deeper and you learn so much, we can only do so much in a day. So thank you again for your time and for the information.

John: 1:01:55

Yeah. Thank you

Savannah: 1:01:56

Absolutely. I wish the best to all your listeners, and I would just say, if they're struggling with their sleep, they don't need to do that alone. There's a lot of ways that they can find support.

John: 1:02:08

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Connect Empower. We want to express our gratitude to you for being part of our community, and we hope today's episode has provided you with valuable insights and inspiration to enhance your life and that of a loved one.

Erin: 1:02:22

We are more than just a podcast. We are a community dedicated to enhancing the lives of our aging adults and their support system. We encourage you to visit our website now at www. connect empower. com. Explore more information about our guests from today's episode and to access our free resources.

John: 1:02:43

resources. Our mission doesn't end at the conclusion of this episode. We invite you to take action now by sharing the knowledge you've gained today with someone who may benefit from it. Whether it's a family member, friend, or colleague, your influence can spark positive change.

Erin: 1:02:58

Remember, Subscribing to our podcast ensures you never miss an episode and we have more incredible guests and resources in store for you. So hit that subscribe button and stay connected with us. Your commitment is the driving force behind our mission and together we can create a movement for a brighter future as we age.

John: 1:03:19

I'm John.

Erin: 1:03:19

I'm Erin. Until next Wednesday.