Breaking the Silence: Recognizing and Preventing Elder Abuse

Let's face it, talking to your parents or grandparents about elder abuse can feel like tiptoeing through a minefield. But fear not! This episode, with lawyer Rachel King, equips you with the tools to have open and honest conversations, ensuring their safety and well-being while guiding you on having compassionate discussions that empower your loved ones, not scare them.

Here are your secret weapons for navigating these important conversations:

• Ditch the Talking Down: Treat them with respect, after all, they've got a lifetime of wisdom!
• Become a Listening Ninja: Pay close attention to their thoughts and concerns. You might be surprised by what you learn.
• The Feedback Loop: Encourage them to share their feelings – open communication is key!
• Safe Space Secured: Foster an environment where they feel comfortable being honest and expressing themselves freely.
• Respecting Their Choices: Remember, they're still in charge. We'll discuss ways to empower their decision-making.

Start putting these tips into practice today! By having proactive conversations, you can make a world of difference in protecting your loved ones.

Transcript

Savannah: 0:00

If we're talking about a criminal violation, It should be no surprise there. You can go to jail, right? That's the kind of the repercussion for violating a criminal law.

John: 0:19

Hi, I'm John,

Erin: 0:20

and I'm Erin. You're listening to connect-empower. The podcast that proves age is no barrier to growth and enlightenment

John: 0:28

tune in each week as we break down complex subjects into bite sized enjoyable episodes that will leave you feeling informed, entertained, and ready to conquer the world

Erin: 0:41

Our guest today is a true force in both entrepreneurship and legal fields. Imagine starting your first business at just 12 years old. That's Rachel for you. Always driven, always striving for excellence and her journey. Didn't just stop at business. She also dedicated seven years to serving in our military where she sharpened her discipline and leadership skills. Inspired by her father's career in law. Rachel followed her lifelong passion and opened her law firm. In 2014. Now she navigates complex arenas of wills, trust estate planning, trust administration, probate, family law, and so much more across California, Arizona, Texas, and Kentucky. Rachel is more than just a legal expert. She's a devoted wife and mother deeply connected to her community through continuous outreach. She embodies the kind of leadership that's rooted in care and commitment. Impacting, not just her clients, but everyone around her. You'll find her at the heart of her community, making a difference every day. Please help me welcome our guest, Rachel King. Welcome.

Savannah: 1:57

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Erin: 1:59

We are super excited. I know this is a topic I don't know a lot about. I know it happens, but I'm not really sure. all the ins and outs to it. So this will be a great informational for our listeners.

John: 2:10

it's such a, such an important topic, I think, right. It's, uh, as we get older or when we're very young, we're very vulnerable and, I'm very protective of both the littles and, Older people. can you lead us in with your story? What, what motivated you? what what made you jump into the world of, Elder abuse?

Savannah: 2:31

I didn't always want to be here. In fact, this was never on my life plan, was to do the kind of law that I practice today, which is, complex litigation, specifically in the areas of elder abuse. abuse. financial elder abuse, conservatorship, some of the elder law areas. But if we go back in time, I probably discovered that I wanted to be a lawyer somewhere around 14 years old, took me a very windy path to ultimately become an attorney that included military service, children, marriage, the whole nine yards. I opened my own law firm in 2014. And again, still, this was, elder abuse was not on my radar at all. But I did get into family law. And so I became very good at the family dramas. I also started to learn and see where elder abuse started to fall. And in family law, We do domestic violence restraining orders, and then, so when you look at elder abuse, we're talking about elder abuse restraining orders, but so much elder abuse, which we'll talk about, ends up being like a domestic violence kind of situation where domestic violence is It's considered, well, it's considered domestic violence when it's a family member, right? Or some kind of romantic relationship. So when we're looking at elder abuse, much of the elder abuse comes from those same relationships. The only difference is somebody's over the age of 65 and they fall legally into being an elder. And so we have some different protections. So I was first introduced to it that way. And then. And, but when I remember it was so funny, I had an attorney once say, oh, this is very early on. You're going to love like elder law. And I went to a bar meeting for it. And I was like, this is the most boring area of law who would ever want to do this. Right. But I still had my, young lawyer glasses on and I thought this, I want to be like all of the lawyers on suits. I didn't realize they don't exist. So through the years, I got some really great cases. I had some opportunities to do some really wonderful, lawsuits and work with fantastic people and solve some pretty big issues. And I. over time. It was like a slow burn love, right? So now I am here today and I have been doing this for years. It's the primary focus of my practice right at this point in my career. And I'm a legal specialist in this area. I just, in 2023, actually, Took the legal specialization to become an expert in all things elder and, past the exam. So now I'm just waiting on my, stamp of approval from the state bar, but that's where I am and how I got here.

Erin: 5:32

Well, congratulations. I'm sure that wasn't easy.

Savannah: 5:35

it's never easy. Nothing's easy, right? But now that I look back, I'm like, well, was it as hard as I made it out to me? Who knows?

Erin: 5:44

I remember sitting on an airplane because I thought about law at one time too. And I was sitting on the airplane and the lady next to me was going to law school and I saw like these big, massive books. And I, she's like, that's just one book for one class. I was like, Nope, that's not for me. And my brother's actually going, my younger brother's going to law school right now. And I'm like, I just, Oh man, that's a lot of work. So hats off because that is no easy task. Could you define what elder abuse exactly is like, how is it defined? Is it emotional? Is it physical, financial? All of it.

Savannah: 6:18

So like I was saying, elder abuse starts when we have somebody reaches a certain age point or there's little carve outs in the law that say if like it's a dependent adult and we have these little checklists to see if somebody reaches that. But once you get to this point where you are considered an elder or a dependent adult, depending on which state you're Then we move into this area of elder loss. talking about elder abuse. We only get there once we reach those parts, right? But then if we look at what constitutes elder abuse, we're really looking at financial elder abuse. There's physical elder abuse. There can be, of course, emotional elder abuse. There can be alienation as a form of abuse. Right? We see that a lot where somebody starts to control access to communication or to other family members or friends. So elder abuse as a whole really is not just financial, though financial is a huge part and probably arguably one of the most common, right? because there's so much to gain. And so attracts maybe people that would otherwise not. Be considered abusers.

John: 7:38

Wow.

Erin: 7:39

There's a lot to it.

John: 7:40

There is a lot to it. so What are some of the most common signs and symptoms that people that, Are near or are communicating with elderly people, or the aging population? What are some signs that they can see? if they have just quick interactions. where maybe they are being abused by a family member or a caregiver. What are some signs out there that they you'd be able to tell?

Savannah: 8:04

we have all different people that can come in and step in. So elder abuse is most commonly identified by the, bankers, right?'cause we see for financial elder abuse, we see money going to weird places. So sometimes bankers will notice, family members and friends sometimes will notice. It's important to keep in mind a very. Like what you said really is the nail on the head and that's that elder abuse is most commonly occurs at the hand of a caregiver or somebody that's very close to the senior, right? So now it's how do we identify this when we're so in and out? And it's really challenging because on one hand you might have a child who's taking care of their parent and it seems on the outs like this is really important. This. This mom maybe has dementia and aren't they lucky to have a child coming in and taking care of their life? And maybe that's all that's going on and how dare like a random person come in and interfere with this. On the other hand, if you look a little closely, which you don't want to intrude, right? Is that child now taking too much money? Are they misappropriating? Are they getting a little bit too physical because they get frustrated? On a quick snapshot, I would say the only people that are really able to identify elder abuse on a snapshot without getting some kind of additional information is going to be like a banker, right? Those are the people that don't know a whole lot of information and they're like, why are we seeing money being wired to, across the world, right? Or, I've actually seen seniors go in and try and wire tens of thousands of dollars to the Prince of Egypt. And it's you don't know the Prince of Egypt. He doesn't want your 80, 000, right? So those are really quick. But that's not very common, right? That's not the norm. So I'd say what to look out for, and these aren't things that you notice right away. It's going to be like something that you see over and over again. Patterns. Are you able to communicate with your loved one, right? Do they have access to phones? Do they have access to, visitors? Are they able to not necessarily Productive visitation, right? Because if you're later stages of dementia, maybe your, time with your family is not very, exciting, but are you able to see your loved one? If you have open access, then that's really important. If you don't, or if you find that it's getting closed off routinely or repeatedly, then that could be. a sign of elder abuse. If you see bruises, that of course could be elder abuse. If you notice that somebody, I had one person notice elder abuse when they got a call that said, my, my ATM card was declined. I'm just at the grocery store buying milk. I don't know why. That little itty bitty, statement was enough to have somebody looking to be like, why can't you afford milk? you should, your ATM card shouldn't be declined for milk. And then we looked into it and saw that so much money had gone, checking mail, making sure if their bills aren't getting paid, why are these things not getting paid? Is it because they aren't doing it themselves or because somebody's coming in and it's not taking care of them. So I think you want to keep an eye just overall on if things are going or if there is somebody that or something that's happening that gives you like that icky feeling and very often for elder abuse, much like with children, if you have a gut feeling, you should follow that gut feeling. The worst that happens is you're wrong. And being wrong when it comes to elder abuse is not good. It's like the best outcome because that means there isn't actually elder abuse. So, you know, trust your gut. Don't turn the other, don't turn a blind eye and just see.

Erin: 11:46

I know we've talked about a few different things, but really we've talked about family members or a caretaker. But where can elder abuse happen? Not just in our homes, maybe in facilities, maybe like where you've seen it mostly happen or we know it can happen anywhere, but sometimes there may be places we don't realize, hey, it could happen here too.

Savannah: 12:10

So financial elder abuse occurs mostly through, taking of money, but it can be small amounts. Like I'm going to go out to dinner every day with this person and I'm going to make them pay for me. if they don't have the ability to say yes or no on whether they want. To spend 100 every night on dinner, or gosh, costs are getting so high. That can be how elder abuse appears as little bits of money. Elder abuse can appear with houses being redeeded or estate plans being redone so that you're not, somebody different would inherit than was originally intended. We see elder abuse in. Homes, right? Of course, with that alienation kind of idea that somebody is being cut off in. And that can be in the house, right? When they're living independently, or it can also be when they're in some kind of assistive living. If they're being isolated, then that can be a form of elder abuse when they are receiving care. If you see, I spoke to somebody recently and their loved one had tons of bed sores, right? Just and bed sores that had not just happened In, a short period of time, but we're there for days and days that can be a form of elder abuse, not having the appropriate food can be a form of elder abuse. And so we can see it that way and so really, it appears. In home, it appears at facilities. Physically, it appears at banks financially. And so all of these places that an elder interacts can be subject to it. But I think the probably 1 of the most. I would say just life changing and financially devastating is when somebody takes a house from a senior and then tries to kick out the senior from their house. And now they're left typically on a fixed income with nowhere to go. And that's it. It's really, really tragic.

Erin: 14:11

This might sound like a silly question, but when people do financial scams with elderly, is that also considered to be elder abuse?

Savannah: 14:19

Yeah, absolutely. So again, it's not as common, right? I saw the woman that said, I got an email from the Prince of Egypt and he wants me to send him 80, 000 and he'll give me a million or whatever, but we've seen, I'm sure we've all gotten a text message or a phone call from the IRS or the post office or all of these people saying you're whatever the claim is. And send us money and we'll fix it. That's a financial scam. Typically, they're a little bit smaller, depending on how that goes. That is any time that is financial elder abuse. Financial elder abuse is basically taking the elders money, right? The seniors money in a way that is financial elder abuse. perpetuate some kind of fraud or misappropriates or does it without what we would consider the consent of the elder? And consent is if they knew what you were doing with it, would they still give it to you? Not like I asked them for 10, 000 and they, signed the check. Yeah. But if they knew what you were going to do with the 10, 000, would they still be giving it to you? so that's, the not legal definition, but an easy way to understand what financial elder abuse is. And so whether it's a penny or a million or over dollars, right, it's all financial elder abuse.

John: 15:32

is financial elder abuse probably one of the easiest to discover and to, I guess build a case on and so forth and like physical and stuff because people can always physically abuse an elder and then threaten them or cover them up with, loose clothing so that you can't tell. But with financial elder abuse, I'm sure it's pretty obvious when you can see that, like you said, there's been these big transfers of money or there's been some big changes.

Savannah: 16:01

So financial elder abuse, the paper trail is usually a little more clear, right? Because money goes in, money comes out. If it was taken You know, in cash, and there's no explanation. There's kind of a presumption that the trick about financial elder abuse is we assume that like anybody over 18 can make any kind of decisions they want, right? We give that's like a fundamental right as a human being to be able to make your own decisions. So where the tricky part in elder abuse is you'll oftentimes see people saying, yeah, but I really like this person. And they should be rewarded. Rewarded. my caregiver is having a really hard time and their car got repossessed and their kid is really sick. And it's fine for me to buy them a car. Like, I don't mind doing it. And you're like, yeah, but you shouldn't be buying them a car, right? You're paying for their wages. don't mind going to target. Like I wanted to go to target too. They were doing me a favor by going to target. I had to pick up some things. So just to be nice, I thought I'll pick up their tab as well. So those are some of the areas that financial elder abuse can be a little tricky is because we want, yeah, you're right. You can pick up the tab. You could buy somebody a car, right? So what? Point is it outside of just the normal human's ability to consent, but you are correct, the paper trail is a lot easier. For physical abuse, just like family law, right, and what we would consider traditional domestic violence, the victim of somebody who is suffering from emotional abuse or physical abuse can sometimes have a really difficult time speaking up. And when we're talking about seniors. They're so reliant in most cases on the necessities of life, getting food, many of them crave companionship, and so this person is maybe not a good companion, but they're, and they think, Oh, well, I'm never going to be able to go to, I'm going to be sitting in my own feces if I say anything. So I'd rather just not. And so you, have the same concerns that you would have in a traditional domestic violence situation, but then you compound it with the fact that they don't have parents that are there to check in on them or another family member. Family member. Typically, there's no area in the law that is presumed to make sure that this senior is taken care of. It requires somebody else to come in and take affirmative action, which again, we don't want to necessarily do that because who's to say whether this person, is not able to make their decisions.

Erin: 18:36

What are some best practices to protect ourselves as we age? As we're getting older. Making sure that we don't have that financial abuse, the emotional abuse. What are things we can put in place?

Savannah: 19:37

Well, emotional abuse, hopefully, you know, we've all learned some tools over our many years of wisdom that we can take with us. I don't know, as an individual, if you can, once you get to that stage in life, if you haven't learned them, you may still learn them. be susceptible or there might be some disease that comes in and impairs your ability to prevent emotional abuse. I would say the best thing to prevent like an emotional abuse situation or a physical abuse situation that newly occurring in somebody who's a senior is to have outside people come in and check in on you, right? have a variety of people in your life so that there's a variety of people that can come in and be like, huh, that's weird. Wow, I haven't been able to go in and see Rachel in a while. I normally hear from her, you know, the checks, the checking in. As far as what we can do to make sure that we're cared for, and that maybe are financially we're not taking advantage of. Again, I'm a big fan of checks and balances. Make sure you have, You know, your legal documents in place, a power of attorney, advanced healthcare directive, your estate plan, but then have, again, a check and balance in place. Maybe you have one person that's going to be making your healthcare and everyday decisions if you can't do it. And you have another person that's going to be paying for all of those everyday decisions. So that we don't have one person that Maybe is susceptible to saying, I'll go to Costco. This is a true story. I'll go to Costco and I'll make sure that this person has food because that's my job. But I'm also writing the check for the Costco. So instead of I'm just going in and buying, you know, a case of insure or whatever you get at Costco for one, I'm a senior. I'll buy 800 every week to feed my entire family, right? So having, separating the powers, I think is always the best idea. And you can do that in advance on your estate plan, but that way you have other people that are watching out for you. And it's less likely, it doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's less likely to have a conspiracy of people that are going to allow you to be the victim of financial elder abuse.

John: 21:52

So what do we do when it comes to the geographic division now a family is living away from each other, right? So you'll have some families where the children are living in California. The parents are living in Iowa or Idaho or wherever, you know, and how do we protect, I mean, I've always thought, gosh, it might be a good idea to have cameras in the home, right? And strategic locations so that you can one, see them when you're out of state. And so there's a delicate balance of making sure that your parents don't feel like they're being monitored or they're always on camera. Right. and they hate that or something, but then there's also the delicate balance of man, if I slip and fall, And nobody knows I'm down. Or if I do have a caregiver that's stealing from me or, abusing me, it's nice to have cameras in here that I can monitor that from afar. what is the legality when it comes to that?

Savannah: 22:49

Well, so hidden cameras are like probably a no in every single state. And by hidden cameras, I mean like persons whose house it is doesn't even know they're there. So I don't know that in any state in the United States. So you can check with your jurisdiction, whether it's allowed to go and hide cameras. cameras in like my parents house just so I can keep an eye on them. That seems to me that would be a huge invasion of privacy. I think that's an ongoing problem and I don't actually know that we have a solution at this point. I have many clients who say when I'm talking about who's going to make their decisions or if we need to go in and get a conservatorship, they're like, I don't have anybody. okay, so there's professionals, right? You can have a professional. There are professional fiduciaries that will come in and act as a successor trustee, a conservator, or in any fiduciary position. They cost money. Right. So now we're stuck in a situation where, which is so common that there's not enough money to pay a professional to do this, but we still need somebody to be in place. I don't have an answer for that other than I hope that as we all age, we surround ourselves with enough people that love us, whether that's a family member or a close community that there is somebody that you can decide, but it's not impossible at the same time to have a family member that's far away come in and right. So if you do have family that's living far away with technology the way it is, it is possible to Watch the finances to act and take care of them and then depending on how many, how much they need, right, how much are you, you know, if you are at an advanced stage of Alzheimer's, you probably need to be in an assisted, a memory care facility, not living on your whole, home with just cameras, right? So a lot of that is going to be taken on a case by case basis for family, but family involved is the most important. Look at the finances. Even if you're with mom or dad and you're like, Hey, I'm not going to take them over. Let's just look at it. Check in on them. Be involved. Visit. You just want to be the active role. One, because maybe you'll notice something in advance. But two, the people that are the abusers don't want to be involved in a family where they're going to be watched and scrutinized, right? They're going to go for the easy victims that don't have an involved family.

Erin: 25:15

I think that's a huge takeaway that I've taken away during this conversation so far is surround yourself by many people. And we talk about community a lot and wanting to bring that back. And it is very important. And this is just another reason why to have your neighbors, to have your family. To have maybe your coworkers and yeah, just the importance of community was huge. So I'm glad you said

John: 25:39

that. Thank you. I agree. And I, I Also think that, you know, as we get older, maybe we're not getting out as much and so forth, but we have some prized possessions or heirlooms that we don't want anything to happen to. Maybe put them with a family member or put them in a safe deposit box for protection. you can always still get access to them if you need them, but then they're not going to walk off, and some of those smaller items I'm sure do. I don't know that factually, but I know a lot of the um, caregiving companies when they hire. When they hire a caregiver, they have to go through a pretty, pretty deep background check and stuff.

Erin: 26:14

Well, I'm going to say no, they don't depend on what state you're in. So it is very, to be very careful,

Savannah: 26:20

Not to be the Debbie Downer, but most of your stuff nobody wants, right? We don't have, there's not a huge demand for antiques anymore, there's not a huge demand for collectibles, so those are going to be sentimental in most cases to the fan, to the individual, and in many cases your family doesn't even want them either and might say, I'll take them, but we'll get rid of them. I think One of the things about community that gets really challenging when you have a senior is we're such independent people, especially, you know, the old, you're just, you want to be independent. That's what you want from, the time you can reason. It's I don't want my parents anymore. I want to be on my own. And then you. Get to a point where it's like, I don't want to give up my house. Like, I like living at home. I don't want to do these things. And so if we, you know, if you can have a conversation, we're not going to take you out of your house necessarily, but maybe we're going to put you in, maybe you consider moving to a, an assisted living where. You have your own condo, but you're in a community and you have people that can check on you, or there's so many different ways of living that allow for independence, but also have that sense of community. Because quite frankly, if you are. If you are 75 and you live in a single family home, I'll use California as an example, in a track community, you're probably mostly surrounded by families and families are dealing with working every day and kids and all of these things and they usually are not going to be Wanting to get to know their neighbors, but if you're surrounded by other people that are over 55, then you have more time to sit on the porch to gab to play cards or chess or whatever you do,

Erin: 28:06

I just, for my own curiosity, we've been doing a little bit of research. Are you noticing more elderly move in together and cohabitate like a group of friends maybe, cause we talk about, we don't want to live in an assisted or independent. We still want to be in our home and have control over our own space. So we're living together as a bunch of friends.

Savannah: 28:25

the golden girls.

Erin: 28:25

Yes,

Savannah: 28:27

I have not seen an uptick in that. However, I think it would be awesome. And I have spoken with other people, especially because we have this, affordable housing crisis and it's affecting our seniors. It seems that there's a whole lot of. The baby boomers are now retiring and, without being insulting, I don't know that the baby boomers planned for retirement, maybe as well as they should. So we have a big problem right now with affordable housing for seniors. So I have been involved in conversations where there, are discussions about pushing that agenda, right? Should we have these housing co ops where people can come in and rent a room, but you're, you're like in a Golden Girls thing. But in real life, I haven't seen it. It sounds super fun. And, maybe one day, I don't know that people want to go back to being roommates though. Like my daughter's a roommate and she's 19 and I think it sounds miserable. So maybe. might be a hard sell for somebody who's 70.

Erin: 29:24

right? What are some steps that you take if you suspect as a family member, someone that someone is being abused one way or another? What are the first steps? Do you call adult protective services? Do you show up at a courthouse, the police station?

Savannah: 29:40

So the FBI is opening a whole branch for financial elder abuse. So I think now that's really exciting. You can file a case with the FBI. Always law enforcement. Almost every DA I've ever seen has a sector for financial elder abuse. And it can be criminal. So I think reporting it to the FBI. The local police department is important adult protective services or something to that effect. We have adult protective services in California. We also have a group called the ombudsman's for seniors that live in assisted living or some kind of residence. So I think all of that is a really great free resource we have. There's a lot of charities. A simple Google search for your area and senior resources is a great place to start. Local senior centers can have those different resources. And then at the end of the day, there's private attorneys like myself that can really help. provide information not only to a senior if they think that they are the victim. I'll say it's less likely that I get calls from the victims themselves. And it's more common that I get calls from somebody that's concerned. So somebody that's concerned could also call a private attorney like me and say, here's what's happening. Do I have to be concerned? And am I the right person to do something? Or is there a different person in this case that should really be the one taking action?

John: 31:07

That's great. So I know we talked about the steps. So when somebody does abuse an elder, whether it's financially, physically, or whatever they do, what are some of the repercussions that can happen to that person that is, abusing the elder? what happens to them?

Savannah: 31:25

Well, it really depends what they do, right? Somebody that's, misappropriates a penny is probably going to have less of a punishment than somebody who takes, a million dollars. So we'll talk about them a little bit separately. If somebody is alienating a senior, then those typically show up when it's like a person that has some fiduciary power, a power of attorney or something, they can lose their right to act on behalf. If we're talking about a criminal violation, It should be no surprise there. You can go to jail, right? That's the kind of the repercussion for violating a criminal law. And then under the civil codes, if you do something like misappropriate money, you can be forced to not only pay that back, but to pay. double or sometimes even triple the amount of money that you stole or that you know, you took. So again, it really depends on where we are and what was going on, but there's some pretty serious penalties. I don't want to go to jail. I don't think anybody does.

John: 32:25

You know, I think that some people, that do misappropriate the funds and so forth and use the funds for personal use or whatever, or physically abuse them. Some of them don't have anything, right? Some of them don't have money. So it's, yes, I could see them having to serve jail time, but you can't sue somebody and get, try to get finances from them. if They don't have anything,

Savannah: 32:47

Prevention is always key, right? I always tell people like, I know it's a big deal to, take this action, especially if you're not sure if it's, really happening or not, but it's a whole lot easier to stop the bleed than it is to go And recover. And it's for those exact reasons. We can prove. Let's say we do prove that somebody took, 250, 000 dollars, the entire retirement account, but by the time we prove it, that money is long gone. That person is what I call judgment proof. And so now you basically get a piece of paper signed by a judge with a red pen. And what are you gonna do with it? like nothing. You can't do anything with it. So getting ahead of it is super important. jail time. I don't think most people want to serve. But even more than that, if somebody doesn't have any money, you're never going to be able to collect on it. So it's really one of those things that we want As a society get become more aware of get one step ahead of so that as soon as we notice it, we can stop it rather than waiting until somebody loses their house has all of their money stolen and

John: 33:54

Yeah, for

Erin: 33:54

Sure, earlier we talked about ways and where someone can report the abuse. I assume, I don't know, you would know better than me. There's fear in reporting it, right? Like you were saying earlier, if I say something, I'll be sitting in my feces all day. If this happens, what are the repercussions? And I don't know if you have some words of encouragement or something we can tell our listeners of, hey, This is why it's important to report this. You're worth it to tell somebody.

Savannah: 34:24

without, you know, instilling a whole lot of fear in somebody.

John: 34:27

Yeah.

Savannah: 34:29

like those, everything that we've already talked about, it's if we can't recover it, it's too late. I think 1 of the biggest reasons, especially that seniors don't report is they are. so afraid of the lack of companionship, right? They just, and they are so reliant on the people. Remember, the most common person to commit elder abuse is a caregiver or a close family member. And the caregiver or the close family member is typically that involved because the senior needs something, right? Needs the groceries, needs to be taken to the doctor, needs all of this, doesn't have anybody else to That can do it and can't do it themself. So we have this huge fear that no, they're going to be left alone and they're not going to be able to get food and go to the grocery store. So I think understanding that's not going to happen. We're going to make sure that you are taken care of and it's a far easier to make. Make sure you're taken care of before it gets as bad as it possibly could, right? If we can get ahead of it, then we can get in, we can stop it. We can make sure if it's your child that you still have a relationship with that child, but that it's a safe and healthy relationship. And we can make sure that you're getting everything that you need. So kind of that, that comfort that you're not going to lose it all. if you report that. It's reported and put yourself 1st

John: 35:56

Yeah, that's so incredibly important. and, I've been in the, this world for a very long time and finding resources and supportive services for people that are aging. And I've noticed that, there can be also the other side of it, where you have somebody that has a little bit of dementia or whatever, and they start yelling, he hit me or she hurt me or whatever, when that really didn't happen. And so that plays into things as well, because everything has to be investigated. Anytime you have a claim of abuse. Especially in assisted livings, or independence and so forth. It has to be investigated. But you'll find that happening to. But companionship and loneliness, I think, is a huge factor that plays into it. Because as we get older, There's a lot of things we can't do by ourselves. And then we need the assistance of somebody else. And maybe we, our family does live out of state. And so we're really reliant on that caregiver. And so it's just such a fine line, of, yeah, of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable,

Savannah: 36:58

and. it's so easy to say, right? But that idea, if you're involved, if you are involved and that person, or you, when you, when we all get that age, have more than 1 person around, we're going to feel more comfortable reporting an issue because we're going to know, hey, I got. grandchild that's going to come in and help me, I have somebody else that I'm going to be able to rely on. So the more, the merrier, right? We want the more, the merrier.

Erin: 37:25

back to the financial part. Do you suggest, going to your bank or wherever your finances are and putting a limit on stuff or saying, Hey, if you see, just maybe filling them in going, I'm at home, I have a caregiver. If you start seeing these things, or I only can spend 200 a day or my mom or dad, or do you suggest putting any of that in?

Savannah: 37:47

no, I don't suggest that at all. I think that sounds like a huge issue. I can't imagine the bank would do it if anybody other than the person asked. And I don't even think a bank would do it if the person asked. But here's why I don't think that is necessary. I don't even think it would be helpful. Banks already are aware. Of what's going on, and banks already will step in oftentimes and be like, did you do this? I don't what's going on. get fraud alerts all the time. So banks are aware of it. So putting them on notice. I don't know that's going to do anything. And then a lot of times these people are aware of what's happening, right? Like I want a 200 spending limit today, but tomorrow, I don't care that yesterday I told you that I wanted a 200 spending limit, today I want 600 it's my money, so you better remove it. So I don't think that any of that is going to be helpful, and I think it would probably cause more problems than it would solve.

John: 38:36

I have a very close friend of mine that just had a situation happen where. it was, somebody that was saying it was telling his father, Oh, go out and buy these Apple gift cards and then give me the numbers on the bottom of it. And at the end of the month we'll transfer a million dollars into

Erin: 38:52

your account or whatever. And so,

Savannah: 38:54

That's like a very, very huge scam, but it doesn't just affect seniors. I've known, you know, young people that have fallen for it

John: 39:00

yeah, so I told, it is good to have somebody else helping you with your finances as you age too and becoming aware of it. And so I did recommend to Mike, I said, well, why don't you with that? leave a chunk of money in his account, but then you let him know that you're going to help assist him with his mortgage, his utilities and everything. And therefore you want to have access to his main account that you can monitor and you can see. And, I think once he and his brother did that, They were, they felt so much better that dad wasn't out buying these apple gift cards. Right. and they could talk to him about it and he was still convinced that he was going to get this million dollars. But, Yeah, it it slowed it down. So I think it is important to be involved. not necessarily control because mom and dad still want to go out and buy a bottle of wine or treat themselves to a cup of coffee or whatever, You don't want to just take full control and then ration it to them. But I think to be involved and have that discussion early is important, you know?

Savannah: 40:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the best thing you can do is have these discussions Or it's necessary because once it's necessary, now you're just insulting the person and saying, you can't do this. You're getting taken advantage of. And that is not going to be a helpful conversation at all. to have it in advance is a good idea. I'm an attorney, though, so I'm a big fan of not taking away people's rights unless there's a reason to. I also have seen quite a bit of problems with just going on people's accounts. Every single situation needs to be handled separately. uniquely. And so if a family can come together and have those open communications and figure out something that's going to work for them, I think that's a great idea. And we're always looking for the least restrictive means, right? We don't want, just like you're saying, we don't want to go in and take total control. We don't want to put you in a locked facility if you are, you know, just need somebody to administer your meds like we want to do these things. So wherever we're at, we want to consider it. And we want to come up with the least restricted means. But if you can have open communication, that's great. If you don't have a family member or a family situation where you can have that open discussion. find somebody, an attorney that is confidential, a pastor, a therapist, a friend, somebody that you can be like, I need help figuring out how to make sure I'm taken care of.

Erin: 41:25

Do you have advice on maybe how to open up and have a conversation with a family member? Because sometimes maybe, we don't see ourselves as ever losing control or our mind or getting older. And I don't want you knowing my business, you're my kid, but we need to have those conversations and it can be hard to have them. Do you have advice that you share with other families? these are how you can maybe start a conversation.

Savannah: 41:49

I tell my clients when they have to go and have a difficult conversation. And when I'm, sometimes I'm the one that has to be having these conversations with a senior to treat it, first of all, don't talk down. We're not talking down. We're not talking to a child. We're talking to an adult that's been, for the most part, very self sufficient for their entire lives, so don't talk down to them. and I, these are really basic, so you might be thinking, duh, Rachel, but I think if we can go back to them, then it will really help in the communication. Don't talk down. Don't talk like they're not there. That doesn't do anything either. And ask questions and ask for their opinions and their feedback. Their opinions matter. It's their life. And even if somebody has advanced their opinion matters. It makes somebody feel, and these are good, just communication tips in general. If you can make somebody feel like their opinion matters and you're listening to them. And you're not talking over them and you're not talking down to them, you're going to get a better receptive, feedback and have a better conversation,

John: 43:00

I think it's such, such a. Interesting area to be in, right? Because yes, as we get older, we become very independent and we don't want anybody taking any of that independence away yet. I think children fear, right? It's like, wait a minute. I really want to know how much money you and dad have or you and mom have, because we don't have a lot of money and I can't afford to pay for all your care. So where are you financially? So there's this, This really delicate balance of trying to be respectful, but also trying to make sure that you're communicating effectively. And I love that you said, don't talk down to them, don't treat them like they're children. be respectful, treat them the way you'd want to be treated and just say, Hey, not to say there's ever going to be a situation that happens, but. Let's figure out a plan B just in case, how can I help support you? And if you come back, come through in a loving way, I think it's much better than sitting there saying, okay, I'm taking care of it. I'm taking over your finances. You just bought an Apple card and sent this information somewhere. You're done. I'm taking over.

Erin: 44:04

you can't do that. Cause

John: 44:05

still the parent. You're still the child, That's right.

Erin: 44:09

right?

Savannah: 44:11

but I mean, it goes, it goes so far and take parent and child away from it just, like human, basic human interaction. If. you can ask the question and not and maybe there's a little bit of, people get tense about it. But if you say, hey, we'll stick with the mom and dad scenario because I've had this conversation with my parents. Hey, Where are you on retire? Like, my parents are retired. Where are you on retirement? Like, are we talking where I need to think about having you come in and move in with me at some point if you can't afford your own life? Or did you plan for retirement? I don't need to know how much money you have. But I do want to know at what point you're going to be expecting me. to step in, right? Or have you got it all sorted out so that I don't need you to? And not from a hard place, just a real life place. And I think that's very fair. When I talked to my parents about it and I said, look, I have my own family, I have my own finances and I have my own retirement to worry about, but I love you. And I know you love me, and I know you don't want to be a financial burden on me or anything, so let's just talk about it. do I need to because I'm happy to, or do I not? and what does that look like? I don't know, still, how much money my parents have because it's not my business, but I know kind of what that looks like, and I know what they would be expecting of me as far as where, what my role would be. And the worst thing is to go in and reprimand after. And I always tell people like, did that go over well with you? If you told somebody I didn't save for retirement. And then they're like, Oh my gosh, come down. You just walk away and tune them out and be like, okay, I'm never having that conversation again. So asking the question and it's like, I call it like marriage counseling, one on one don't respond, just listen. And then come back another

Erin: 46:10

Are you talking to us?

John: 46:12

No,

Erin: 46:13

just kidding.

John: 46:14

I agree with that. It's funny. We were just talking to somebody a couple of days ago and we have really gotten into an area of life or our society. For the most part, We listen to respond. We don't listen to hear. And I think that we really need to slow the conversations down and we need to pause. and We really need to. Listen to what's being told to us, not just automatically react, And,

Erin: 46:38

respecting, you know, so. So I have a final question for you. It's my turn to ask it. We love to travel. And I'm sure our listeners are tired, but we love to travel. Where is some place that you have been or you would love to go on your adventure list?

Savannah: 46:56

I don't have a trip planned that's on my adventure list just now, but for my 40th birthday, I went to New York and I stayed in Manhattan on the Upper East Side and I chose, I'd never been to New York. But I chose it because I love to run and I wanted to run Central Park because so many people run Central Park and it was one of the best trips and I've had some pretty great trips, but this was one of the best trips I've ever had. my husband and I were like totally faking it till we make it right. We did all of the things that were so ludicrous and you can't afford on a daily basis. But for like the four days that we were in New York, we really lived. Like we were multi billionaires, and felt it and it was fantastic.

John: 47:46

I love that. I love that. Yeah. you never know if you have another tomorrow. Right. And so sometimes I think it's important that you live like that and you experience life to the fullest. Not that you can't on a smaller budget, but, I know people that save and save and save and save and then they get older and they can't do anything. They can't move. They can't go out experience any trips or anything like that. so I love

Erin: 48:09

that you did that. Yeah, that's super cool.

Savannah: 48:12

everybody says, I'm going to do it in retirement. And I used to be like that too. I still am to a certain extent, but mostly the things I'm going to do now in retirement are simply because I have to work and it doesn't fit on my, timetable. But Man, I'm a very conservative person financially. And I think that even still, sometimes you just got to go and do that one thing that you really wanted to do. The problem is you can't do it every day, which once you had a taste of it, it's really to be like, Oh, shoot,

John: 48:41

so besides running in Central Park, which I'd love to experience that too, but what is one more thing you did in New York that blew your mind? You, spent the money for it and you and your husband go, that was worth every

Erin: 48:53

single penny.

Savannah: 48:56

really good seats on Broadway. And I didn't know I liked plays. So let's just be clear. I did not think I was into plays. I'm not a concert person. I can appreciate live band performances and live, theater. But I didn't ever think that I was not like what I wanted to do. When I went to New York, I thought, well, I'm here. Broadway is here. Like that would be foolish. not to go see a Broadway. And so we saw, we got really good seats at Wicked and then we got pretty good seats at the Book of Mormon. And I have to say they were totally opposites, but I didn't know how much I loved theater, like Broadway shows. And now I just fantasize about getting on an airplane on a Friday night just for a Broadway show on Saturday.

Erin: 49:47

Wow.

Savannah: 49:47

done that yet, but it's like a fantasy.

Erin: 49:49

they have Broadway across America and they travel to different big cities around the US and they bring those shows to those locations. So that might

Savannah: 49:58

So I Yeah, I've heard of that. And I assume that in LA they probably do, but I don't know that would be as cool, right? what if I went to LA and I didn't like it as much and then I was like, Oh, I have, it was so fantastic that it like holds this amazing place in my heart. So I'm thinking maybe I'll just keep that place for Broadway.

John: 50:17

Yeah, we were in London and, yeah, the end of December, early January. And. Aaron introduced me to high tea and so we dressed up really nice and we went out and had high tea and that was a pretty incredible experience. I don't know if I do it all the time, but, I'm glad I did it and we did it in London. it was good.

Savannah: 50:37

That's what it's all about though, right? It's about trying the things, even the things that we've done on vacation that have been like, Oh, I'd never do that again. It's still so fun to be like, but I did it. And it's like, So cool to experience something new.

Erin: 50:49

Right. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time today and all the amazing information on elder abuse. I know very little and this definitely helped open my mind, really. I mean, the FBI opening more stuff and the different places. We have lots of resources out there that feel that this is a need. So please report it, right? Report it. It is a.

Savannah: 51:13

right over reporting is better than under reporting because the worst that happens is you're wrong. And that only means that somebody is not getting abused.

Erin: 51:21

do you have any final words for our listeners? Maybe something we didn't ask you, maybe something we didn't say.

Savannah: 51:27

Uh, that's that, that I think that over reporting is better than under reporting and nothing bad happens except the only thing only good happens you either reported and it is Somebody is getting abused and we can stop it or you report it and somebody's not getting abused and that's even better.

John: 51:48

Well, Thank you so much for being here with us and, go, out. we're all going into the weekends. We, We hope you enjoy

Erin: 51:54

your weekend and get a lot of sunshine. That's right.

Savannah: 51:59

Wonderful. Thank you guys so much. It was so nice meeting you

John: 52:02

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Connect Empower. We want to express our gratitude to you for being part of our community, and we hope today's episode has provided you with valuable insights and inspiration to enhance your life and that of a loved one.

Erin: 52:16

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John: 52:38

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Erin: 52:52

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John: 53:13

I'm John.

Erin: 53:14

I'm Erin. Until next Wednesday.