Ordinances and Sacraments (Timeless)

We talk about ordinances and sacraments - what's the difference.  We come at it from a Reform Calvanist / Baptist-ish standpoint as we examine what the difference is when it comes to baptism and church tradition.  We understand that some of our listeners won't agree with all of it, but now you know where we're coming from.  

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:01]:
If you haven't been baptized, go and get baptized.

Chad [00:00:03]:
Yeah, man. Do it. Believe first, though.

Greg [00:00:05]:
Yep. Absolutely. You beat me to it. Yep.

Dave [00:00:08]:
Sorry. Yeah.

Chad [00:00:09]:
Alright. Next week, sprinkling or full dunk?

Dave [00:00:16]:
I can't wait to talk to you about what the early church did.

Chad [00:00:18]:
What about pouring? Or pouring.

Dave [00:00:22]:
What they do in the desert? What the Christian church do in the desert?

Chad [00:00:26]:
They dug a hole and waited for it to fill in with water. I yeah.

Greg [00:00:32]:
They cried until they had enough.

Chad [00:00:34]:
That's right.

Greg [00:01:01]:
I did a funeral yesterday. Mhmm.

Dave [00:01:03]:
What funeral was it?

Chad [00:01:06]:
I don't think this is a joke, Dave.

Dave [00:01:08]:
I thought it was. If that was like a joke.

Greg [00:01:11]:
No. No. But I was talking to one of the youth at church the other night. We were having a conversation, and I was it was in the what do we call that big giant area that could be, like, an airport terminal? That could be

Dave [00:01:25]:
an airport terminal. The atrium.

Greg [00:01:26]:
The atrium. Okay. Yeah. And she was out there at one of the tables, and there was other there were other people floating around. And I was talking to her and just asking her some questions, and then she's like, so what do you do? And that kinda killed the conversation.

Dave [00:01:43]:
Did I

Greg [00:01:44]:
Yeah. Anyway See,

Dave [00:01:45]:
it was a joke. Mhmm. I was telling you.

Greg [00:01:47]:
Yeah. No. So I did a funeral and,

Dave [00:01:50]:
did you was it?

Greg [00:01:51]:
I didn't realize until I got to the funeral that the widow brother was one of my patients who died 6 weeks ago. Oh. So his widow was there, and the 2 widows were sitting together. And it's not a joke.

Dave [00:02:08]:
This sounds like this sounds like the punchline is coming.

Greg [00:02:11]:
There's no punchline. And then this man walks in, and he stares at me and gives me a look. And then I gave him a look because it was my across the street neighbor. But we were, like, 40 miles away from my house. Because your job is? 40 miles away from my house. And what

Dave [00:02:27]:
do you do for a living, sir? A hospice chaplain. You're a hospice chaplain. See, I think our listeners are many, many listeners that keep growing and growing and growing.

Greg [00:02:35]:
Great. What are we up to?

Chad [00:02:37]:
16, last time

Dave [00:02:38]:
I checked. 16. 16. Which was We were we were prophetic.

Greg [00:02:41]:
Yes. Yeah. We're we're moving we're saying 16 now, but by the time people hear 16, we could be up to 22. Yeah.

Dave [00:02:49]:
Let's if we go, like, exponentially

Greg [00:02:52]:
Right.

Chad [00:02:52]:
Yeah. It would be even more than that. Quite possibly.

Greg [00:02:56]:
Okay.

Dave [00:02:56]:
Because my mother will listen to it and my daughter-in-law. So that's 2 more that I'm gonna listen.

Greg [00:03:02]:
That's great. There we go.

Dave [00:03:03]:
3 more of my son, 2. And okay. 4 of my daughter. Wow. I don't know if I can get my wife to listen to it.

Chad [00:03:10]:
No. None of our wives will ever hear this. They hear enough of us already.

Greg [00:03:16]:
It's could be for the better.

Chad [00:03:18]:
Yeah. Could be.

Dave [00:03:20]:
But we could talk about a book of the Bible. We could we could talk about a doctrine, a particular doctrine.

Greg [00:03:27]:
Why don't you check and see what the callers have? Oh, let's see. For us. Nothing. Oh, it's not Fraser.

Dave [00:03:36]:
It's not Fraser. Like all good shows, the psychologist is the most psychologically impaired person in the whole show.

Chad [00:03:42]:
My degree is in psychology.

Dave [00:03:44]:
And that's why it's that's one of the reasons I brought it up. It's my little little jab at your undergrad.

Greg [00:03:50]:
Do you know how many psychologists it takes to change a light bulb? Mhmm. How many? Just one, but it has to really want to change. Nice. Also works with counselors.

Dave [00:04:01]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Greg [00:04:03]:
Do you

Dave [00:04:03]:
also know the percentage of success rates? What's the sorry. Not the percentage, but the success rate of counseling. What is it? It's about the same as people who talk to their family. Oh. Yeah. There's it's really not very high. It's, like, 50%.

Chad [00:04:21]:
Yeah. Assuming your family is safe and competent to talk to because it's been happening.

Dave [00:04:27]:
They may be the problem in the first place.

Chad [00:04:29]:
I've seen a thing or 2. Let me just say.

Dave [00:04:33]:
I'm really I'm really just dying to talk about infant baptism.

Chad [00:04:37]:
Really?

Greg [00:04:37]:
Okay. We're on. Okay. Infant baptism.

Dave [00:04:41]:
Go. Okay.

Greg [00:04:42]:
So when an infant believes, then we need to baptize them.

Dave [00:04:46]:
Made that simple.

Chad [00:04:48]:
Yep. Okay. What else you got?

Greg [00:04:50]:
Yep. Alright.

Dave [00:04:51]:
I think I think we're

Greg [00:04:52]:
good. Let's go. Alright.

Dave [00:04:54]:
Settle that question.

Chad [00:04:55]:
So just out of curiosity, what is what is the defense of infant baptism? Because we don't see it in the old or new testaments.

Dave [00:05:06]:
But you do see circumcision in the old testament.

Chad [00:05:09]:
But what's what's the defense of infant baptism?

Dave [00:05:12]:
I'm not advocating this position, but the there's a parallel made between baptism and circumcision. Ah. Theological method is important. Right? Mhmm. So I think one of the greatest insights I was ever given about theology is that different groups and different people tend to have theological themes that dominate. So, for example, if you said John Piper, what do you think?

Greg [00:05:37]:
The glory of God.

Dave [00:05:38]:
The glory of God or or he Christian hedonism, which is which is the glory of God, just reveling in the glory of God. So does the whole Bible talk about the glory of God? Not every inch, but yet somehow when you hear John Piper talk, it almost comes up every conversation. Right? In the same way, if you talked about Dallas Seminary from the 19 seventies, probably sixties through the nineties, What does that come up in your mind?

Greg [00:06:06]:
Dispensationalism.

Dave [00:06:07]:
Dispensationalism. That was the only thing it seemed like they could talk about as Mhmm. As a seminary. And, of course, that's not all they talked

Greg [00:06:14]:
about, but it Dispensationalism Today.

Dave [00:06:17]:
That was the name of the book. That's true. Yes.

Greg [00:06:19]:
I'm being specific.

Dave [00:06:20]:
But that was really dispensationalism yesterday at the time that it was a

Greg [00:06:24]:
question. Confusing me. I

Dave [00:06:25]:
know. Well, because when he said dispensationalism today, Ryrie was defending my my opinion, he was defending dispensationalism of yesterday, not the at the time dispensationalism. Right. So that's my little fun jab at brother Ryrie who's now with the Lord. Now I lost my train of thought.

Greg [00:06:44]:
What were we talking about? Well Oh, the center

Dave [00:06:46]:
the center of theology. So not only do you have people that tend to have a theme that dominates, you also have a methodology that dominates. So if you look at the just the 2 big most different approaches to theology, there's 2 really broad extremes. Right? You have the biblical centered exegetical theology approach or you have the tradition approach. And the 2 extremes of that would be, like, what what you might consider, like, Baptist or reformation tradition, what Luther claimed, just like the Bible is my authority. And then you have Catholicism which said, we interpret the Bible for you. But even within that, you have stripes of people who rely on tradition more. I would argue, personally, that those who, from observation, and it's anecdotal in a sense, but it's been a lot of conversations with different people, those who tend to believe in infant baptism, they tend to start with church history.

Dave [00:07:44]:
The reformation is their kind of their tradition that they hold to. And they do go to the scriptures, but when it comes to baptism, they tend to go right to the confessions. And they go to the traditions that come from out of the Reformation. And my argument would be that the reformers got a lot right, but they were working with a lot that was wrong. Mhmm. And I just don't think they came all the way to understand baptism from a biblical perspective. Now that's obviously from my non Presbyterian or nonpetobaptist, nonreformed position and more of a free church or Baptist church perspective on baptism. And my argument is when when you talk to somebody about baptism and they tend to go to, well, the reformer said this, they they tend not to find their argument from scripture that come out of tradition.

Dave [00:08:37]:
And it's just a kind of a mediated it's like a less traditional position than Catholicism Mhmm. But it's still a traditional position and because they're going to the confessions rather than going to the Bible passages. And so what I've always tried to do is to to go to someone and go, okay. Start from ground 0 and just positively assert from the scriptures infant baptism? Go. What passages would you go to? And so, you know, my the tradition that I came out of, the bible college that I came out of, and the seminary I came out of, you did your theology exegetically. To be honest, it was a little weak on historical theology, my education was, but we never use that as an authority anyway. So we would always go to the passages. And so, to be honest, you have to go to quest in my estimation, questionable passages to find the pathobaptism.

Dave [00:09:27]:
So you have to go to Philippi and you'd have to go to the passage where it says, well, you know, the jailer believed and his household and they and his household was baptized. It never says the household believed unless you read 2 verses later where it says they believed the whole household. So you have to go to strange passages or and to give them some credit, they are trying to make a parallel because I'm I'm not I don't wanna be enemies with these brothers in Christ

Greg [00:09:57]:
because

Dave [00:09:57]:
they they they got salvation right.

Greg [00:09:59]:
The

Dave [00:09:59]:
reformers did did a good job on that and that's the most important thing. But I don't think when they came out that they made that full break. And they tend to make a parallel between baptism it's not tend to, this is a specifically stated in the confessions that it just like in the Old Testament, you had circumcision that brought you into the covenant community. Therefore, when you baptize infinite infants in the new testament, that is the New Testament equivalent which brings them into the body of Christ. And so this is why Free Church and Baptists will talk about saved church membership.

Greg [00:10:42]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:10:43]:
So what goes hand in hand with pedo or infant baptism is is unsaved people as formal members of your church. And then within that, you have all those gradients of whether that actually has any benefit for them, whether some people think that that ensures that they will become believers. And if you go all the way to the Catholicism then and that actually overcomes original sin so they can cooperate with God in their salvation. So I know I've rambled here for a little bit, but it's kinda that's that's trying to give a short answer to your question about where does it come from. But notice there's not a lot of passages there that you can go to that positively assert What does the new testament say? Repent and be baptized. Believe and be baptized.

Greg [00:11:30]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:11:31]:
That's the pattern in the new testament.

Chad [00:11:32]:
So Right.

Greg [00:11:33]:
I agree with that. And I, and I and I agree with that example in Acts that that the household was baptized, and then after it says that the entire household, that he had believed in god. The entire household didn't believe, like, babies didn't believe.

Dave [00:11:52]:
He had babies? What? He had babies?

Greg [00:11:55]:
Well, I'm saying if there were babies there, they wouldn't have believed because a baby can't believe. Fair.

Dave [00:12:03]:
So you think that's more figurative?

Greg [00:12:05]:
Yeah. Like, when when they when when when numbering was done of communities Mhmm. Like, it wasn't it wasn't always, like, every single soul in that community. It it was by household. So, like, to say the household was baptized, it could just mean the men of the household or the important figures of the household, the leaders of the household. It doesn't have to mean that every single soul in the household.

Dave [00:12:32]:
No. I I get what you're saying. I think that's probably a fair assessment too. But it's it's very convenient for that position to ignore that second verse about them all believing as well. So whoever was baptized also believed

Greg [00:12:47]:
Right.

Dave [00:12:47]:
In that narrative e narrative section.

Greg [00:12:50]:
Careful. And and so the idea of of then baptism replacing circumcision, it it really strikes me as odd that replacing one outward symbol with another outward symbol as well. Mhmm. It it just it just doesn't seem right to me other than it's a lot less painful, easier to do. Yeah. But but it still is just one more symbol to to bring somebody into a covenant. Yeah. But I I tend to be a little bit more dispensational.

Dave [00:13:32]:
Yeah. In other words, you don't have in in not even though I'm not dispensational, I would say, and not being covenant either, I would say that there is a very strong connection between infant baptism and covenant theology because the idea of that continuity between the old testament and the new testament. Right. And so just the notion correct me if I'm wrong. The notion that you have to have some sort of a parallel because the new covenant is a reaffirmation of the old covenant.

Greg [00:14:08]:
Right.

Dave [00:14:08]:
I'm good with saying, hey, we'll stay friends, but we're just not gonna do church together because you wanna baptize the babies and I don't.

Chad [00:14:16]:
So you both mentioned covenant a couple times. Covenant theology, what is that in a nutshell?

Dave [00:14:24]:
You you do you wanna go first?

Greg [00:14:25]:
I'm gonna let you because I'm

Dave [00:14:27]:
this is kind of a And I would end up mischaracterizing. Okay. So the core really is that covenant theology sees a high level of continuity between the Old and New Testaments. And, fundamentally, they see that the church is this replacement of the nation of Israel, that all the promises that were given to Israel are unfulfilled at the time of Christ, no longer are applied to Israel at all. They apply to the church proper. Mhmm. So the church is spiritual Israel. You hear that phrase in quotation marks, spiritual Israel.

Dave [00:15:06]:
But that's I don't read I don't get that when I read my old testament through the new testament. What I see is that the the church is a bringing together of Israel and gentiles into this one new body, Ephesians 2. It doesn't call it an reaffirmation. In fact, the old covenant's done away with so that you can have coequal Jews and Gentiles in this one body. So I I don't see Israel as being replaced by the church. I think that there's some continuity there. Israel as a nation is no longer God's people in the sense that they're God's covenant people because the old covenant's done away with

Greg [00:15:51]:
and it's been replaced

Dave [00:15:52]:
by the new as promised in the old testament. So when he ratified the old covenant, he said, but this isn't gonna be enough. You're not gonna be able to beg because you need a new heart. And then even in Deuteronomy, was it 28 ish, 27, 28, 29 there, he starts implying that Jeremiah 31 new covenant needs to come around. And so when that happens, but god made those promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob before the old covenant was ratified, and those are those were not conditional in any way. Those were promissory covenants and those have to be fulfilled. So I see those being fulfilled. It's just now the church the church is how God is operating in the world with both Jew and Gentile as one new body.

Dave [00:16:36]:
Now to give some reformed and more Presbyterian leaning people, they will affirm what I said, but they still hang on to some of the the covenant y stuff of Israel and the church and stuff. So

Greg [00:16:49]:
Okay. Alright.

Dave [00:16:50]:
But they that's fairly close to

Greg [00:16:52]:
what you But they still wanna eat bacon. Yes. They do.

Chad [00:16:56]:
Yes. They do. Who doesn't wanna eat bacon? Right.

Dave [00:16:58]:
I wanna eat bacon. I wanna eat bacon right now. Can we

Greg [00:17:02]:
take a break in bacon break? I think so. Yeah. That would be great. Anyway

Chad [00:17:09]:
And we're back.

Greg [00:17:13]:
This half hour is brought to you by. I like the way you snorted right there too.

Dave [00:17:19]:
Oh, I lost it. That I snorted.

Greg [00:17:21]:
That will not be cut.

Dave [00:17:22]:
No. You should not. No. You should leave Dave Snortzen. That'll be in there. Because that those are just just

Greg [00:17:27]:
And some of your other finer sayings will be left in too. Yeah. Not all of them. I hope.

Dave [00:17:36]:
Oh, I'm in trouble.

Chad [00:17:37]:
You guys get to listen to every one of these before we publish. So

Greg [00:17:40]:
Good. Good. Yeah. And I I I just think it's best practice that people understand what is happening before they do something. Like, I I people need to understand what baptism is before they're baptized. Yeah. Because it I don't like giving false assurances. And, this world is is so confusing.

Greg [00:18:06]:
So many I'm I'm just gonna say churches, we know that they're they're not all the true church coming out of so many different traditions, and I don't wanna land based specific ones. But people come and they're confused because they come from this tradition and that tradition, And we really do need to be careful in how we practice our liturgies, our ceremonies, our ordinances Mhmm. That we that we are clear in what we're doing and what it teaches and why we do it. Because if we're not, they're just gonna think they're doing what they were taught when they were a kid over at something something assembly Mhmm. Place. Mhmm. 100%. And and it's important that we're clear about what we do and why we do it.

Greg [00:18:52]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:18:52]:
Yeah. Do do we wanna get particular? Because I like, you even said it. You said ordinance. You called what was the implication of calling baptism, and I'm assuming it would include communion in that term, ordinance?

Greg [00:19:04]:
Yeah. I wasn't talking about explosives.

Dave [00:19:07]:
Yeah. Right. I was. Okay. Were were you?

Greg [00:19:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. Next on catfish, Middle East struggle. Anyway, we're back.

Dave [00:19:16]:
Yeah. But expand. I wanna

Greg [00:19:19]:
As opposed to sacraments.

Dave [00:19:21]:
Okay. So, like Wait. There's a difference between an ordinance and a sacrament?

Greg [00:19:26]:
So, if you are raised in some church traditions, like a Catholic tradition, a sacrament is a means of receiving grace. And if you do not participate in that sacrament sacrament, you are not receiving the grace, the grace that is necessary to be forgiven. And without that saving grace, you are left in a state of purgatory or damnation. And so a Catholic taking communion is going to look at the whole thing, the elements, the bread, the cup, very differently. They're gonna have a very different understanding of of everything that's being done than a Baptist who's doing it. A Baptist and then I'm just gonna say Lutheran too because now you've got the the 3 big views there. There's the memorial view that the body the the bread and the cup represent, and we do this in memory of. Mhmm.

Greg [00:20:33]:
Or the Lutheran view is consubstantiation. It's with the substance of. So it doesn't become the blood in the body, but it has the substance of, and it does impart some grace to you. Mhmm. And then the the Catholic tradition is that transubstantiation, when the priest begins the whole liturgy, this actually becomes the body of Christ and the blood of Christ. And that's why when in in a Catholic mass, when they're done, they don't throw it in the trash.

Dave [00:21:09]:
Right, you can't, yeah, because you're throwing away Jesus.

Greg [00:21:11]:
Yeah, it is saved or it is eaten or, in in some places, there's a special drain that actually goes to the soil. And it's in the soil of the of the church grounds, which is one of the reasons why Catholic churches cannot be sold. Mhmm.

Dave [00:21:27]:
Oh, sanctified

Greg [00:21:28]:
ground. Mhmm.

Dave [00:21:30]:
Literally. Literally. That I I learned something tonight.

Greg [00:21:33]:
Yeah. Well

Dave [00:21:34]:
Yeah. So means of grace then. So means of grace is actually imparting you're getting something towards your salvation.

Greg [00:21:43]:
Yes. Yeah.

Dave [00:21:45]:
Why? Why, Greg, that does sound like Sacramento's different than an ordinance.

Greg [00:21:51]:
It it's very different. Somebody who comes from a Catholic tradition or a nominally Catholic tradition or a you know, they've come from that place when they sit in a protestant church and they hear the scripture read that says and when you that you're to examine yourself and, that you're not to drink this in an unworthy way or whatever, they're thinking, like, this is my confession. This is, like, me being saved all over again. Like, I was unworthy up until I now take this right now, and now I'm receiving grace. And now I'm forgiven, and now I'm clean, and I'm gonna walk out of here trying to be all good and perfect again. So you're cooperating with God in your salvation? Yes. There is a synergism where you and God are working together in your salvation.

Dave [00:22:52]:
So Christ's death made you savable.

Greg [00:22:54]:
It made you savable. And you are you're working with God

Dave [00:22:59]:
to get it done.

Greg [00:23:00]:
You're a co worker.

Dave [00:23:01]:
Mhmm. You're earning it

Greg [00:23:05]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:23:06]:
By works of righteousness.

Greg [00:23:07]:
Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Dave [00:23:11]:
I don't that doesn't remind me of any passage in the bible. Like, not by works of right anyway. No. Yeah. So can we take this full circle back back to the baptism?

Greg [00:23:20]:
Sounds like you really want to.

Dave [00:23:21]:
Is that okay?

Greg [00:23:22]:
Yeah. I would love to hear I don't think you'd accept no for an answer.

Dave [00:23:26]:
That's true.

Greg [00:23:27]:
Okay. Go.

Dave [00:23:27]:
Because if you won't do it, I will.

Greg [00:23:29]:
Okay.

Dave [00:23:29]:
But I want you to do

Greg [00:23:30]:
it because

Dave [00:23:30]:
you've done such a great job.

Greg [00:23:31]:
You're circling back.

Dave [00:23:32]:
So no. Tie tie this in with baptism then. So infant baptism within the Catholic tradition

Greg [00:23:39]:
You like the way he says tie this back and then he ties it back? No.

Dave [00:23:42]:
No. No. I'm let me do the job. I'm connecting the dots, but you're filling in the details.

Greg [00:23:47]:
You're you're connecting and filling just fine.

Dave [00:23:51]:
I feel like this is turning into an argument.

Chad [00:23:53]:
I don't know. Are we friends? You're in violent agreement.

Dave [00:23:56]:
I'm in violent agreement. No. So, I mean, I have I'm happy to do it, but you always tease me about stealing the mic time. So, so no. I I would love for you to connect the dots for us, why infant baptism, how that ties into the sacraments and the sacrament of new and means of grace and

Greg [00:24:15]:
So one of the sacraments is, is infant baptism. And when when a child is born to a family who is Roman Catholic, they want that is one of the first things they want done is for their child to be baptized, And they're given their Christian name, and they're given their godparents, and they're recognized by the Catholic church, and their name is now recorded in the in the church records, and they're now good. They're good with God. If something happens, that baby is now okay because a work has been performed, a sacrament has been done. And imparted to that child based on what we have done.

Dave [00:25:04]:
What is what is infant baptism have to do with original sin in the in the Catholic tradition?

Greg [00:25:13]:
Why don't you go ahead with that?

Dave [00:25:14]:
Okay. So as I understand it, when you are baptized as an infant, that covers original sin. So that gives you, as a child then, the capacity to cooperate with God. That gives that makes that synergism possible. So, again That baptism, you couldn't believe. Right.

Greg [00:25:39]:
So because you've been baptized, now you have the capacity to do enough good to believe and do enough good to go to confirmation and do enough good to go to confession and take the sacraments. And without that baptism, you wouldn't have enough good in you to be able to follow through on all those things.

Dave [00:25:59]:
This is why many theologians on the the more protestant side, shall we say, would call that synergistic religion a man centered approach to salvation because it fundamentally really, god doesn't have to do anything more. He's already done everything he needs to now. It's all up to the man Right.

Greg [00:26:21]:
Or woman or child to He he made the way.

Dave [00:26:23]:
To contribute. Yeah. He made the way, and now that makes you save a bull. Now here's the baton, take it to the finish line.

Greg [00:26:31]:
Yeah. Exactly.

Dave [00:26:33]:
Yeah. In contrast to that, they

Greg [00:26:35]:
don't know. And if you stumble before you make it to the finish line,

Dave [00:26:39]:
then you can

Greg [00:26:40]:
pay it. Solution for that too because we'll just come to your deathbed and say a blessing. And and if you were really, really bad, there's things that you can pay to the church and Yes. Indulgences. And,

Dave [00:26:54]:
You gotta tell that story about the indulgences and the You

Greg [00:26:56]:
you would probably tell it better than I. Yeah.

Dave [00:26:58]:
I know.

Greg [00:26:59]:
I'm not

Dave [00:26:59]:
good at storytelling. Yeah. Because You know I'm dying to tell this story.

Greg [00:27:04]:
I couldn't tell. Do you know you

Dave [00:27:06]:
know what what I'm talking about?

Greg [00:27:07]:
I really don't.

Dave [00:27:08]:
Oh, sorry.

Greg [00:27:09]:
Okay. Because because they

Dave [00:27:10]:
would sell indulgences in the Middle Ages. Right? And that was one of the big criticisms was they would sell indulgences. Tell me after the fact, you're gonna you're gonna tell me you know this story.

Greg [00:27:18]:
So Please tell us.

Dave [00:27:20]:
Alright. So I actually think it's an apocryphal story, but it's a great story. And if nothing else, it illustrated just how corrupt the church was in the Middle Ages. So The Roman Catholic Church. Which would be the only church at the time.

Greg [00:27:33]:
Okay. Right?

Dave [00:27:33]:
Yeah. But, yes, the Roman Catholic Church.

Greg [00:27:35]:
The anti

Dave [00:27:35]:
baptist. The universal though a few. Yeah. Scattered scattered through in those little villages hidden in the woods. Alright. So during the Middle Ages when the church wanted to raise money, they had a convenient way to do that, highly motivational way of doing that. And you could buy indulgences which were kinda paying for your sins with money. And so they got to the point where they actually it was so corrupt that there was people around traveling, going around, and selling indulgences, and getting really wealthy doing it because they could keep a percentage or whatever.

Dave [00:28:14]:
So the story is and, again, I think it might be apocryphal, but it's it's a beautiful story anyway. To illustrate the point, a guy goes up to one of these sellers of indulgences and says, hey. I'm planning on doing grievous harm to somebody, but I'm not gonna kill them. Can I can I can you sell me an indulgence ahead of time?

Greg [00:28:38]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:28:38]:
Like, is that okay? And the guy goes, oh, yeah. Sure. So he pays the money. And as the guy's leaving town, he's mugged and robbed of all the money by the guy who he sold the indulgence to Oh my. For doing grievous harm to somebody. So he never had to pay for that sin of stealing and beating up, bugging this guy. Now I actually do think it's an apocryphal story that was told in the middle ages to illustrate the point Yeah. Of how corrupt it was.

Dave [00:29:12]:
It may have been true though, but it's a great story anyway. Yeah. So indulgences. It's another way you can overcome sin.

Greg [00:29:18]:
I knew I'm sorry.

Dave [00:29:19]:
I see, I told you. You know? Yeah.

Greg [00:29:21]:
Okay.

Dave [00:29:21]:
Yeah. Usually, you and I are like track better

Greg [00:29:24]:
than that.

Chad [00:29:24]:
Yeah. And it's it's almost like a paradox too. Right? It's almost like a a

Greg [00:29:30]:
time travel paradox, you know?

Dave [00:29:33]:
Modernize this.

Greg [00:29:34]:
I know. It it

Dave [00:29:35]:
Bring it on, Jay.

Chad [00:29:36]:
It's almost like, you know, he, he paid for the sin that he didn't commit. The the sin that he was planning on committing, but then he never committed it. So Yeah. Did he ever pay? Yeah.

Dave [00:29:52]:
It sounds like this the Hawking story about the party that he threw. Yeah. Or He sent out the invitations afterwards. Yep. And nobody showed up so he knew there was no time travelers. Right. Exactly. Genius.

Dave [00:30:04]:
Absolutely.

Greg [00:30:06]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:30:07]:
Yeah. So okay. So we've that's a pretty tight little package we've tied the the sacraments in. And so then the term ordinance, why do we call them ordinances instead of sacraments?

Chad [00:30:23]:
I give up.

Dave [00:30:26]:
I get we're just not tracking today. It's okay. I don't know if you're just trying to make me uncomfortable or if you're just

Chad [00:30:36]:
Yeah. This is where I'm

Dave [00:30:37]:
going with this.

Chad [00:30:38]:
This is by definition a Chad lite episode because with my

Greg [00:30:43]:
Feel like

Dave [00:30:43]:
I'm being the host tonight. I'm so sorry.

Chad [00:30:45]:
With my atheist upbringing

Dave [00:30:47]:
You have no background on it.

Chad [00:30:48]:
Yep. I was saved into a believer's baptism church, and that's all I've ever known and done and Like, simple.

Greg [00:30:55]:
Yeah. Go ahead.

Dave [00:30:59]:
So you tied that into a nice little bundle. So, which this is why those in the more of a free church or Baptist background use the term ordinance because we want to make a big distinction between a sacrament and an ordinance. And an ordinance is that which is commanded, specifically, the term ordinance in theological terms is the 2 commandments given by Jesus to the church to practice on a regular basis. Some people believe in 3 ordinances because of foot washing. The only problem with foot washing is you don't see it commanded both by Jesus and the apostles afterwards. Brethren movement generally does foot washing, and they see that as one of 3 ordinances whereas more free church and Baptist traditions tend to see 2 ordinances.

Greg [00:31:58]:
Question for you. Are there any, churches besides the free church you mentioned and then Baptist churches?

Dave [00:32:06]:
Just Yeah. Like the Presbyterian,

Greg [00:32:08]:
the Lutherans,

Dave [00:32:09]:
and the Just

Greg [00:32:09]:
haven't mentioned any of this.

Dave [00:32:10]:
Well, because that's the mediating position. We can get to it because I actually kinda wanted to since since I'm hosting

Chad [00:32:17]:
tonight. Whatever you want, Dave.

Dave [00:32:19]:
We're just rotating. Let's You can I told you I wanted to talk about this? I know. Yeah. Clearly more than I even knew.

Chad [00:32:25]:
Yeah. You've you've made your point. That the Dave show has

Greg [00:32:28]:
allowed Catfish Ministries to be a guest tonight.

Dave [00:32:31]:
See, I knew it was gonna come on eventually. I've been trying to feed you, man. I'm trying to feed the beast. No. So what were we on though? Oh, we were on ordinance. Yeah. We're on ordinance.

Greg [00:32:43]:
He says we.

Dave [00:32:45]:
Yeah. I. What was I on?

Greg [00:32:49]:
I bet

Dave [00:32:49]:
you're me feel bad.

Chad [00:32:50]:
Bet you've asked yourself

Dave [00:32:51]:
that a lot. What am I on? Yeah. Yeah. So then the mediating position is the the the more Lutheran or Presbyterian position, the consubstantiation. Right?

Greg [00:33:03]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:33:04]:
And my personal take and I know that this might be offensive to those in those traditions. But my take is that those traditions never broke away from Catholicism as much as they could've could have. And to give Luther and Calvin and all those guys a lot of credit, they took the church a long way away from the traditions that they were living under, and they deserve all the credit for that. But I also think that church history didn't end or begin at the reformation. And there have there has been church history since then, and there have been those who have constantly tried to go back and be more biblical all the time. And I think that we happen to be in a tradition that just has done that closer on this issue. But, man, they did such a great job with justification by faith and salvation, and it's hard for it's hard for me to feel bad about the contribution that they made. And, so all all of you out there that's are sitting thinking I'm, you know, throwing daggers at the Lutherans and Presbyterians, I have great appreciation for what Luther and Calvin did.

Dave [00:34:29]:
So and even some of the Westminster confession confessors or whatever did. I didn't really know I wanted to rant that much.

Greg [00:34:44]:
Oh, you're

Dave [00:34:45]:
good. But I've been thinking about this a lot.

Greg [00:34:46]:
You got it out of your system. Good. That's very good. That's what this

Dave [00:34:49]:
is for me, generally.

Chad [00:34:50]:
Yeah. So so let me ask you this. From a from a standpoint so my wife is she was raised Catholic. Right? So she, she kinda went through, all that. And to be honest with you, I found some of our old I can't remember what the name of the book was, but, I just opened it up and started reading it. And it was some sort of a thing about all these sayings you had to memorize and things you had to do. And and, you know, I just remember looking at it, and I read it for about an hour. I'm just like, oh my goodness.

Chad [00:35:23]:
This would be so comforting to just, you know, memorize and learn all the rope things you need to do in these situations. And, you know, I I I understand how that would, for some people, be very very comforting

Greg [00:35:36]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:35:36]:
From a human behavioral standpoint. But, Yeah. I I I have very little exposure to the Catholic church. So sacraments versus ordinances, we know that the Catholic church has sacraments. Does the Catholic church have ordinances too? Things that are ordained for for believers to do, but don't necessarily have, like, the full sacramental, you know, dispensation of grace or whatever

Dave [00:36:05]:
Yeah. Goes along with it. Yeah. So I would say the way free church slash baptist speak about ordinances, that's unique to to them because it's specifically about baptism and and communion, what we would call communion or the lord's supper.

Greg [00:36:26]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:36:27]:
But they would have a lot of ordinances within their tradition, but they're not referring to those would not they would not talk about baptism or what they would call the sacrament of the lord's supper or whatever. Mhmm. That would not be an ordinance. Not in the same way. Right. So, you know, ordinance in the broad sense of the word, yes, but not ordinance in the sense of the commands from Jesus that are repeated in the New Testament and repeated in the church. So Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:36:59]:
So when I've I've often thought about this because I think a lot of people in churches, I'm not sure they really understand why you might wanna be picky about the terms you use from the pulpit. So if you're a church that believes in 2 ordinances, is it wise is it wise to to throw around the term sacraments? Or we're gonna take the sacrament this morning. And I Right. I'm not comfortable with that because I know all the background to it. Some would say, well, you don't know the background. But I but I think words have definitions and you kinda, you know I don't know. What would you do, Craig? Would you talk about sacraments?

Greg [00:37:52]:
No. I think that, the leaders in the church, the elders in the church, those who are teaching and who have the responsibility for the ministry of the word need to be very particular in how they speak about the word, and it would be an error for them to refer to it as a sacrament. I believe it would be error for them to talk about it that way.

Dave [00:38:17]:
Yeah. The only parallel I can think about tell me what you think about this, is not too many strong believers that I know would have a love is love sign in their front yard or right? And why not? Because love is love. I mean, first of all, it's a tautology, I know that, but love is love. So what's wrong with having that sign in your yard? Especially, if it's got a rainbow on it. But why wouldn't you put it up there?

Greg [00:38:48]:
Because we know exactly what it's implying.

Dave [00:38:50]:
Yeah. So it has it's it means more than just love. The words love is love. It has this whole Sure. Yeah. Cultural baggage associated to it.

Greg [00:38:58]:
Right.

Dave [00:38:59]:
And that that's kind of the parallel I would use. When you have a term like sacrament

Greg [00:39:03]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:39:04]:
You probably wanna avoid it because as you mentioned earlier, what happens if you come in from another tradition and you could be really comfortable at this particular church that you're

Greg [00:39:14]:
Well, that's that's why I said you would be in error.

Dave [00:39:16]:
Yes. No. No. I'm not I'd be

Greg [00:39:18]:
I'd be teaching error.

Dave [00:39:19]:
You're saying 100%. Yeah. Right. Now I'm just kinda pointing out I'm connecting more dots for some people that may not have connected. But, so what of this? What of this critique? Because I I get this a lot. Well, you believe that this is you believe that this is, an ordinance, and you say it's not a means of grace. So are you saying there's no spiritual value to baptism or or communion? You're just saying it's it doesn't contribute anything to your spiritual growth? How would you answer that critique,

Chad [00:39:59]:
Chad or Greg? No. Well, go ahead, Greg.

Greg [00:40:02]:
Oh, you go ahead. Okay. Yeah. I I would for Chad to get off the bench.

Chad [00:40:06]:
That's right. I'm getting in there, coach. Here I come.

Greg [00:40:09]:
Yeah. Well Center field.

Dave [00:40:11]:
That's right.

Chad [00:40:12]:
I, I I think I would say that's a gross oversimplification

Greg [00:40:19]:
of

Chad [00:40:20]:
of the Protestant position. And I would also say that it's kind of a straw man. Because just because we're saying it's an ordinance and not a sacrament, it's still very important and it's still very meaningful. I mean, I've been moved to tears during communion before. I've been, moved to tears listening to a believer's testimony for baptism before, and I believe the spirit is present there. So it's not non spiritual. Right? It's just because we're not saying that it's a ritual that dispenses grace from God through the church into my life, doesn't mean that it's not happening. Right? So, I mean, yeah.

Chad [00:41:06]:
That I'd that would be my rickety kind of defensive Rickety.

Dave [00:41:12]:
Pretty pretty strong argument, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a spiritual value to

Chad [00:41:17]:
it? Right.

Dave [00:41:17]:
Yeah. By saying it's not a means of grace doesn't mean it's not spiritually valuable. Right. Yeah. I don't know. What do you think, Craig?

Greg [00:41:26]:
Yeah. It's it's with any command in scripture. It's a matter of obedience, and, those are 2 really big commands that are given that believers are are expected to obey, in the same way that they're supposed to obey other commands, like let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing. That's a really big deal. Yeah. You need to be meeting together. Yeah. In the same way that we're supposed to bear with one another and love one another and forgive one another and carry one another's burdens.

Greg [00:42:00]:
You are supposed to believe and be baptized, and you are supposed to do this in remembrance of me. And, and when you're walking in disobedience, you're quelting the spirit in your life and you're gonna be under discipline, God's discipline. You're not going to have joy, love, and peace in your life. And and you're gonna be drying up in your faith.

Dave [00:42:25]:
Because you're just remembering. Right? That's not you're just remembering. That's all Yeah. If communion is what you're saying it is. Right? Just remembering. That's all. Yeah. Just remembering.

Greg [00:42:33]:
Yeah. Just remembering. Yeah. That yeah. Because I forgot about it without remembering.

Dave [00:42:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's the straw man thing is is like a terrible terrible terribly bad straw man because, I don't know, when I go to memorial service, it changes your life. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I think a lot of churches that are on the ordinance side talk about it's spiritually nourishing. Yeah. And that's a way of making the distinction between dispensing grace that gives towards your salvation as to spiritually helping you in your growth.

Dave [00:43:14]:
Because remembering what Christ did for you, discerning the body as part of the evaluation process before communion, all of that is is building you in spiritual nourishing to use.

Greg [00:43:25]:
If you

Dave [00:43:26]:
haven't been baptized, go and get baptized.

Chad [00:43:27]:
Yeah, man. Do it. Believe first, though. Yep. Absolutely.

Greg [00:43:31]:
You beat me to it.

Dave [00:43:32]:
Yep. Sorry. Yeah.

Chad [00:43:34]:
Alright. Next week, sprinkling or full dunk?

Dave [00:43:40]:
I can't wait to talk to you about what the early church did.

Chad [00:43:42]:
What about pouring? Or pouring.

Dave [00:43:47]:
What'd they do in the desert? What did Christian church do in the desert?

Chad [00:43:50]:
They dug a hole and waited for it to fill

Greg [00:43:52]:
in with water. I yeah. They cried until they had enough.

Chad [00:43:58]:
That's right.

Dave [00:44:03]:
Sprinkling, dunking, just go go full donut. Yeah. Dunkin' donuts. Donuts. Or pour. Donuts. Didn't you didn't you, like, pour over someone recently, Greg?

Greg [00:44:17]:
I did. Yeah. Yeah. I I did I did do a pour over baptism. Yeah. Are we are you gonna close this out?

Chad [00:44:27]:
Yeah. We'll close it out. So

Dave [00:44:29]:
I think there's plenty there.

Chad [00:44:31]:
I think there is plenty there too. We covered a lot of ground.

Dave [00:44:35]:
A full episode.

Chad [00:44:35]:
That was a full episode. And, yeah. I think yeah.

Dave [00:44:39]:
I think I planted my flag on what I believe about ordinances. Holy cow.

Chad [00:44:43]:
You did. You did. So what would you recommend? So you got kind of a nice close-up question here. What would you recommend if someone finds themselves wondering where their church stands on some of the stuff we've talked about, baptism, communion, sacraments versus ordinance. What would you recommend that they do, to to get clarification?

Greg [00:45:10]:
Listen to more Catfish Ministries.

Chad [00:45:13]:
Always, always, always. That goes without saying. But after you've done that, if you're still not clear for some reason, what should, what should a a believer do at their church?

Dave [00:45:25]:
I would say just read through New Testament because I don't I don't think if you read through New Testament, you can go wrong. Yeah. Because the pattern is right there. Believe, be baptized. Believe, be baptized. Believe, be baptized. You have to really work hard to find another option. Right.

Dave [00:45:47]:
But and the other thing I would say is if anybody out there has been relying on their ritual or ordinances, even if you were at a 2 ordinances kind of church, you've been relying that for your salvation, you need to rethink that. Not by works of righteousness which we have done Mhmm. But by his great mercy, he saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. By grace are you saved through faith, not of works. So all of this stuff that came about in church history came about because people start reading their bibles and started following tradition. So maybe someone needs to turn their life over to Christ and receive his free grace. So Yeah. I'd be all for that.

Chad [00:46:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. How about you, Greg? What do you think?

Greg [00:46:37]:
Yeah. I would, I would agree with that and, trying to think of a good resource. Can always go to catfishministries.com and check out the resource links.

Chad [00:46:51]:
Now I have to put resource links in.

Greg [00:46:53]:
Uh-huh. Well, first, you first, you need to make this cycle live.

Chad [00:46:57]:
I know. Which I've That's brutal.

Dave [00:47:00]:
Brutal. How to make somebody to get something done. Just promises resources.

Chad [00:47:11]:
Next week, abusive relationships where people make you do things by committing you to things that you don't wanna do. No. So as we're recording this, the podcast has been live on Apple Podcasts for as of 2 hours. So I purposely did not have the website cranked up just because I didn't wanna do that until we had a presence on Apple Podcasts. So which reminds me, if you like what you hear, mash that subscribe button and give us a 5 star review.

Dave [00:47:43]:
Shameless.

Chad [00:47:44]:
I know. Shameless.

Dave [00:47:45]:
Alright. Alright.

Chad [00:47:47]:
But, yeah, I I think, in addition to, you know, going to the new new testament and, scripture as a whole and, going to catfishministries.com for the research links that I now have to put in, I would say, definitely have a conversation with your church leadership. Yeah. Because, you have I mean, you need to understand where your church stands. And I'm sure there's probably a printed belief statement someplace that says something and maybe something on the website that says something, but it it those are not necessarily always enforced, and they're not always followed. They're not always, you know, I I have a conversation with the leaders of your church and find out, where they stand and and maybe they have resource links.

Dave [00:48:47]:
Tell them to get catfished.

Chad [00:48:48]:
Yeah. Get catfished. Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee.com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.