Challenges for the Church in 2024 and Beyond Pt.1 (Timeless)

We discuss what we think the biggest challenges are for the church in 2024 and beyond.  It's a big topic, so this kicks off a three part series.  In this episode we discuss the authority of scripture and theological compromise.

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

Greg [00:00:01]:
You're right. Okay. And the count of 3, we're gonna say the biggest issue facing the church. Okay. We're just all gonna do it. Ready? Okay. 123.

Dave [00:00:40]:
Anything famous happened today?

Chad [00:00:42]:
Let's see. I'd that's another website. I'm not going there right now. National flag of Canada Day. National flag of Canada Day. Hey. Yeah. Oh,

Dave [00:00:53]:
Canada.

Greg [00:00:55]:
On this day in 2001, the first draft of

Chad [00:00:58]:
the human genome was published in Nature Magazine. Right. National Wisconsin Day. On Wisconsin. On Wisconsin. Speaking

Greg [00:01:08]:
of Wisconsin, on this day in 1992, Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced to life in prison.

Dave [00:01:16]:
Okay. You know what would have been the great great justice would have been having him like having him eaten. Would that have been like justice?

Chad [00:01:29]:
So that goes beyond Eeyore to, like we can't know what we can just

Dave [00:01:34]:
I'm seeing, like, wild animals. I'm not seeing, like, humans. Although that that would be a bigger irony. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't he does it didn't he the one that ate?

Chad [00:01:43]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You can

Dave [00:01:46]:
taste test it as victims. It's pretty bad.

Chad [00:01:50]:
Do you need me to walk you to your car tonight, Greg? Just please? Okay. Good grief.

Dave [00:02:01]:
I'll look on the bright side of life, Greg.

Greg [00:02:03]:
On this day in 1989, the Soviet Union announced that all of its troops had been withdrawn from Afghanistan. Ah, there you go.

Chad [00:02:11]:
And I have it here. February 15, National Liberation Day for Afghanistan. Oh. So here's a interesting more recent made up fake holiday. February 15 is Saint Skeletor's Day.

Dave [00:02:28]:
The The Gui

Chad [00:02:28]:
Man universe? Saint Skeletor. Saint Skeletor's Day. So it's like the anti Valentine's Day. The day after Valentine's Day where all the single nerdy dudes get out and do whatever they're gonna do. Also, Susan b Anthony Day.

Dave [00:02:44]:
So can I tell you something weird that happened to me today when I was writing the date? K. Is I would do the unlike Canada, in America, we do the month first and then the day and then the year.

Greg [00:02:56]:
So it's, like, all out of order. Yeah. Gotcha.

Dave [00:02:58]:
So so I go to 15, and I kept wanting to write the year as a 2030. And I was like, it's nowhere near 2030. And I finally figured out after the 3rd time of doing it, it was because 2 times 15 is 30. Wow. And it was like, I just naturally went to 15. Well, of course, 30, but then I had to think, and I actually the right

Greg [00:03:20]:
thing right there. Hospice chaplain, we could talk about your eligibility.

Dave [00:03:24]:
No. It was it was a fascinating, like, little,

Greg [00:03:27]:
So do you know mixing up dates is, like, this one of the second signs?

Dave [00:03:30]:
But I didn't see I didn't mix up the date. It just was this weird I think you

Greg [00:03:34]:
just told us that you did.

Dave [00:03:35]:
No. There's a difference between wanting to write 30 for some reason and not and thinking it's the date. I I there's no confusion.

Greg [00:03:43]:
So the rationalization and justification is another one of the signs. Yeah. That's the third one.

Chad [00:03:47]:
Well, it's

Dave [00:03:48]:
a good thing I'm doing all these unusual therapies to get rid of these bad things in my brain. Uh-huh. Plaques in my brain and stuff.

Chad [00:03:55]:
Which which therapies are you doing?

Dave [00:03:58]:
Cold plunges and saunas and Okay. Okay. Stuff. Cold plunges. My one of my favorite things to do. And then I just recently added sauna ing or taking saunas or sitting in a sauna or whatever.

Greg [00:04:13]:
I'm I'm gonna give you a hint. Chad will be able to get this

Chad [00:04:17]:
day. Alright.

Greg [00:04:18]:
On this day, 70 years ago, k, someone was born. Oh. Wait.

Dave [00:04:24]:
On this day, 70?

Chad [00:04:25]:
70 years ago. Oh, dear.

Greg [00:04:27]:
A cartoonist. And here's your clue.

Dave [00:04:31]:
Oh, wait. It's gonna be the Kevin Hodgkin.

Chad [00:04:36]:
Oh, Matt Groening. Matt Groening.

Dave [00:04:38]:
Yeah. Is it Groening? I think it's Groening. Wanna say groaning, but it

Greg [00:04:41]:
that makes sense. I think Groening.

Dave [00:04:42]:
Yeah. Because that's the German pronunciation. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Chad [00:04:45]:
There you go. 70. Uh-huh.

Dave [00:04:47]:
Yeah. Wow. That's like a

Chad [00:04:50]:
That's my theory.

Dave [00:04:51]:
The mind it takes to to write that cartoon.

Chad [00:04:54]:
Yeah. So he's done

Dave [00:04:56]:
the Simpsons.

Chad [00:04:57]:
So he he's done the Simpsons for about half his life.

Dave [00:05:01]:
Yeah. It's amazing how they can live for years years and never age in the cartoon world.

Chad [00:05:06]:
I know. Okay. Welcome to Catfish Ministries, fishers of men you can trust. Indeed. Indeed. Can you, though? Yeah. You can. Should you, though? Yes.

Chad [00:05:19]:
You should. Topic tonight is even though this is a timeless episode, challenges facing the church in 2024 and beyond.

Greg [00:05:30]:
Does it have to be 2024? Because I think, like, if we could talk about the biggest challenge facing the church

Dave [00:05:36]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:05:37]:
I think it's timeless.

Dave [00:05:38]:
I I think 100% agree with that, Steve.

Greg [00:05:40]:
I think you're right. Okay. On the count of 3, we're gonna say the biggest issue facing the church. Okay. We're just all gonna do it. Ready?

Dave [00:05:50]:
Okay.

Greg [00:05:51]:
1, 2, 3. FOG machine. Compromise.

Dave [00:05:56]:
Trusting the word of God is what I said.

Greg [00:05:57]:
FOG machine is what I said. Oh.

Dave [00:05:58]:
Oh, did you really?

Chad [00:06:00]:
Really? No. I said theological compromise.

Dave [00:06:05]:
I would I'd say doubting. I could say it another way, doubting the word of God.

Greg [00:06:09]:
So the authority is scriptures.

Dave [00:06:11]:
There we go. 22 the vote was 2 to 1. Wait. Who's the 1? He was the 1. He didn't say that.

Chad [00:06:18]:
Theological compromise has nothing to do with the American citizenry.

Dave [00:06:21]:
No. No. No. I'm not saying, but you you are more broad. We were more specific. Yeah. Well But I think you could kind of agree with their statement. Right?

Chad [00:06:29]:
Well, yeah. Yeah. See, we're

Dave [00:06:33]:
Theodling. Is that you, Greg?

Greg [00:06:36]:
Theological compromise flows from Although, there are a lot

Dave [00:06:40]:
of heretics out there that believe the Bible is the word of God. They just read it really poorly.

Greg [00:06:47]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:06:49]:
There's there's a number of them. Yeah. Yeah. But it goes I just wanna be the 1st to say this. It always go it goes back to the first question in the Bible Mhmm. From the Satan. Has God did God really say?

Greg [00:07:03]:
Yeah. Did God really say? So I think that did God really say, when you look at all the issues, and I don't think you need to say today's date happens to be 2024, but in in the sixties, in the eighties, in 2024, and play this in 2040, and whenever, all the issues facing the church, it's going to come back to the authority of scripture. And did God really say? That that's that's what it's going to boil down to.

Dave [00:07:36]:
You take anything that we talk about tonight.

Greg [00:07:38]:
Yeah. It would be Did God really say? Yep. Yeah. Agree. Alright. So now let's tackle some

Dave [00:07:43]:
of that list. Yeah. That was too easy, though.

Greg [00:07:46]:
Yeah. No. We settle this. What are some

Dave [00:07:48]:
what are some alright. No. No. No. That's funny. But what are what are some other day challenges that specifically deal with that? With, with has God really said? Yeah. And we maybe those are bigger topics that we talk about again later, but, to me, the biggest manifestation of that directly is this I'm gonna please the theological types, and I'm gonna baffle the people who don't have a background in theology, a Neo Marcionite movement. Now for everybody else that doesn't know what that means, that means denying the old testament.

Dave [00:08:28]:
Oh. Like, we have our You could've just skipped that part

Greg [00:08:32]:
and just said denying the old testament.

Dave [00:08:33]:
I know, but there's certain people that are out there that will not take us seriously if I'd if one of us doesn't say something like that because they're too astute. So we wanna we wanna reach them slowly and get them to come down to our level Okay. By reaching out to them. Yeah. They get us.

Greg [00:08:52]:
Okay.

Dave [00:08:57]:
That's a whole topic.

Greg [00:08:58]:
That was good.

Dave [00:08:58]:
That needs that needs to be a whole episode, by the way. That was good. Yes. Thank you.

Greg [00:09:03]:
He gets us.

Dave [00:09:03]:
I got it. Yeah. No. So so the truth of the matter is, though, is that there are large churches, one in particular in South, that is leading the charge for divorcing the New Testament from the Old Testament.

Chad [00:09:21]:
Yeah. And that's been around for a while. Right? I mean, that's that's been a heretical teaching from From the 1st century. Yeah.

Dave [00:09:27]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:09:27]:
From Absolutely. That on. Yeah.

Dave [00:09:29]:
Yeah. And the famous one, and the reason it's called Marcionite is because there was a guy named Marcion who who actually put together his Bible in response in the in the early part of this. I think he was 2nd century.

Greg [00:09:42]:
Didn't he also invent the Marciano cherry?

Dave [00:09:46]:
Could have been.

Chad [00:09:47]:
I knew he hated those things. Alright.

Dave [00:09:48]:
I think it's that's the guy who was Italian. This guy wasn't. Okay. Anyway, so he actually said the God of the Old Testament was a God of law, and the God of the New Testament was God of grace Right. And made that hard fast distinction, and that's pretty much what's being said by the Neo Marcionites. And the sad part is there are people that are getting sucked into it who Yeah. Because they trust the particular people who are saying it, and so they've been sucked into thinking. And the way they frame it as well, the New Testament writers divorced themselves from the separated themselves or distanced themselves from the Old Testament.

Dave [00:10:28]:
I don't read a single book in the old test in the New Testament that doesn't refer back to the Old Testament somehow as authoritative scripture. Yep. And so how you can say that is just beyond me. Yeah. Now they made a distinction between new covenant and old covenant. They made a very big distinction there, and I'm more than happy to talk about that with anybody. But that's not to say that the whole old testament, the 39 books of the old testament are being distanced from the new testament. So, it's really sad, actually.

Chad [00:10:59]:
Yeah. You can definitely see that going on, for sure. But I think the other 2 big things that we see, especially in the West, One is the rise of prosperity gospel.

Dave [00:11:11]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:11:12]:
And the other is equally, if not more dangerous, which is decontextualizing the teachings of the Bible on justice and wrapping them up in Marxism and telling yourself that paying your taxes is the same as charity and that wealth redistribution is the same thing as giving to the poor. So I think those two things are equally dangerous to the church today. And they're they're both twisting of scripture,

Dave [00:11:41]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:11:41]:
And they're both twisting kinda twisting and decontextualizing certain teachings and leading a lot of people very far astray the whole time thinking they're fine, and they're in church, and they're just doing great.

Dave [00:11:55]:
So talk to me more about what you mean by your taxes.

Chad [00:12:00]:
Yeah. So

Dave [00:12:01]:
I we've talked about this before, but I I want you to pull that out for a

Chad [00:12:04]:
little bit. Sure. Sure. There's a there's a certain sect of modern Christians, especially in the West, that will tell you that if you don't pay your taxes and support a welfare state, that you are not taking care of the poor and you're dishonoring Jesus' teachings to take care of the poor, which I think we we ran through the thought exercise before where if you don't pay your taxes, what happens? You get audited. If you don't want to get audited, you go to jail. If you don't want to go to jail, you get shot. At the end of it, the government's got a man with a gun that's going to enforce the law. So that was not what Jesus taught about giving to the poor.

Chad [00:12:48]:
So he he this was to be a movement of generosity and love that that led you to that leads you to take care of those less fortunate than you and and not and born from his influence in your life, from the spirit, not compulsory giving by law, essentially Rome.

Dave [00:13:08]:
For some reason, when the government does it, it attempts to become slavery. Yeah. It enslaves them. Right? If you look at the the 19 fifties and beyond. Actually, what's interesting is it doesn't have to be race related because, you know, in the states, it's mostly like the African American population of the states that has been devastated by the war on poverty because basically, they were told, marry the government instead of the man in your life, and the government will take care of you. And the more out of wedlock children have, the more money you'll get. And it you can see the decline of, you know, the inner city population from that. Well, in Britain, there's a whole underprivileged white population that the statistics are very very parallel.

Dave [00:13:56]:
So it's not a racial issue. It's a when you encourage people to marry the government, trust the government for your instead of local humanitarian slash Christian charities that are gonna actually work into people's lives and help them and help them get up on their own feet again, that's gonna cause problems. And it's a pretty it's a pretty interesting study between to compare the underclass in America, which tends to be minority population Mhmm. And the underclass in Britain, which has a high, high white population in that. And the the statistics are very, very parallel. Thomas Sowell is really good at pointing that out. S o w e l l. Thomas Sowell.

Dave [00:14:39]:
He says it so well.

Chad [00:14:41]:
Oh my goodness. So well.

Dave [00:14:45]:
Yeah. So I probably wouldn't rank that as high as maybe you ranked it, but I I think it's definitely Yeah. It's up there. It's on the list. Yeah.

Chad [00:14:53]:
I guess I'm just kinda picking out, you know, theological compromise and failing to honor the authority of scripture.

Dave [00:14:58]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:14:59]:
Those are the 2 biggest endgame manifestations that you see of

Dave [00:15:02]:
it Okay.

Chad [00:15:03]:
In in the world around us.

Dave [00:15:05]:
How do you how do you see it being manifest?

Greg [00:15:07]:
So one of the big ones is this whole deconstructing my faith movement. People who and it and it's it's really across generations, but people who are leaving the church, who are unhappy with the church for one reason or another, They've been hurt by the church. People hurt people, and that that happens. But they've been hurt by the church. They've been disappointed, disillusioned, something bad has happened, the pastor lets them down, or a spouse lets them down, whatever it may be. So they leave the church, and they start to deconstruct their faith. Like, so what do I like about this Christianity and what do I not like? I don't like the organized part of it. I don't like the hierarchy part of it.

Greg [00:15:55]:
I don't like the whiteness of it. I don't like and and it's the standard is now me, I, what I want. It's not scripture and God's authority. So now it becomes about what I want, what feels good, what what experiences. So I really like these high power, retreat things. I like that. I like these great concert like worship experiences, so I'll go to those. I like these powerful speakers, so I'll go to those.

Greg [00:16:33]:
And, it it really becomes a a self centered, make it your own kind of thing, which is is really so dangerous because that's exactly what Satan wants you to do. Yeah. That's the all the all of the of all the commandments, the first one is, is not create God in your own image. And that's what deconstructing your faith really is. It sounds like it it sounds like it's such a great thought exercise. I'm deconstructing my faith. It's so philosophical, but it's really such a self centered and selfish thing that you're just filtering everything through your thoughts, your experience, your selfishness, your desires, and not submitting yourself to the authority of God's word.

Dave [00:17:25]:
Yeah. It seems to me that that when you say I'm going to deconstruct it, that you've lost your faith from from the start.

Chad [00:17:33]:
Right.

Greg [00:17:34]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:17:34]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:17:34]:
Right? Because you're basically saying, like, hey. We're gonna do an investigation, but we're gonna call this finding this person guilty, and that's how we're gonna title this investigation. Mhmm. Well, you're gonna find him guilty if that's what your title is. Right? That's what and to say, well, from the out I'm deconstructing my faith. Mhmm. Well, okay. So why don't you call it reconstructing your faith and saying I'm gonna go to the scriptures and find out what the scriptures really say.

Chad [00:18:02]:
Right.

Dave [00:18:02]:
That's completely different than I'm gonna go to the scriptures and find out and deconstruct my faith. Yeah. Right? Well, you're you're bound to lose at that point. Right. And to be honest, and this doesn't make it right or good, but I actually think that's the natural process of unbelievers finding out that they're really not believers. I I think that's what it ends up being. And I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it but it I think that's most of the people that I know that have deconstructed their faith. They end up showing that they really truly weren't believers in the 1st place

Chad [00:18:36]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:18:36]:
And were just well, God disappointed me. Right. Right? Which ties back into your health wealth. Mhmm. Because if you if you sell the gospel as something that's gonna give you success and God lets you down, okay. Well, there we go. Yeah.

Chad [00:18:51]:
He didn't hold up his end of the bargain. So

Greg [00:18:54]:
so whenever I come across somebody who who makes a statement along the lines of, like, I have a hard time believing in a God who would fill in the blank for whatever it is, who would

Dave [00:19:04]:
Give me chocolate ice cream.

Greg [00:19:06]:
Who would ask me to who would ask me to give 10% of my money. I have a hard time believing in a God who would whatever it may be, whatever about Christianity they're uncomfortable with. Like, I I wanna I wanna show empathy with them. I wanna show them that I care. I wanna be genuine with them. But I really wanna ask and and get to, like okay. I hear you. I I hear you.

Greg [00:19:32]:
But can we talk about what our starting point here is? Because when I'm seeking to understand God, my starting point is what has God revealed? Because, like, God is so much bigger than me, and He's revealed Himself, and He revealed Himself through scriptures. And I'm not going to find out about Him through looking in dirt, through looking in nature, through looking in poetry. If I wanna learn about God, I'm gonna find out about him from scripture. That is the best place I'm gonna find out. Yeah. If I'm trusting my own experiences and my own and and you can go through all kinds of exercises where you where where your experiences have been wrong, where your senses have lied to you, and and showed you the wrong thing about situations. And because when people say, I have a hard time believing a God who, they're they're putting themselves as the decision maker and as the throne, as the decider, and they're just agreeing alongside Satan, did God really say? And they're challenging the authority of God. And that's a really dangerous place to be.

Greg [00:20:47]:
And sometimes you can get people to see that, like, wow, I really am challenging God's authority. And it it's, it's kinda humbling when you see somebody start to wake up to that, because you're seeing God awaken their soul or, or stir their conscience in that moment. And I was gonna say it's really neat to see, but that kinda sounds trite to say it's really neat to see, but it's it is it is Yeah. It's awesome. It it is something to see when when they realize, yeah, it's not about me. It it is about God and about what he has revealed and about what he has said. And then we need to begin to reckon, reconcile our thoughts, feelings, and emotions to God's revelation and not

Dave [00:21:40]:
and on its own, but maybe we can just touch it here. Another manifestation of that opposite of what you're saying, Greg, and denying the scriptures is has God really said about any area of sexuality? Like, the world and flesh and the devil have always always been around. So it's not that it's worse or harder or it's different from what we experience when we re own, but it's still the world of flesh and the devil. And the current manifestation of that heavily in our culture is that basically the world has been saying to us and to our children that sexuality is the center of your life and needs to be the central focus, and you can't talk about hardly anything else in the world without talking about your sexuality. Bible or no bible, they don't. They just wanna ignore it.

Greg [00:22:32]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:22:32]:
Or they wanna try to talk themselves around it. So one of the one of

Greg [00:22:36]:
the greatest lies that Satan tells, and this is a a lie that culture tells, and this is God wants you to be happy. God wants you to be happy.

Dave [00:22:47]:
The be happy attitudes.

Greg [00:22:49]:
The be happy attitudes. Nice. And

Dave [00:22:53]:
Excuse me. Yeah.

Greg [00:22:54]:
And, like, when when somebody's miserable in their marriage. And somebody it's almost like somebody's whispering a lie of Satan in the river, like, well, God wants you to be happy. Like, you're miserable in your marriage. God wants you to be happy. So I guess you need to leave him. You're miserable in your job. God wants you to be happy. And God doesn't want you to be happy.

Greg [00:23:20]:
God wants you to be holy. And when you're whole and I'm stealing something from doctor Charles Charles Ware. You know who Charles Ware is?

Dave [00:23:29]:
He's I love him. Yeah.

Greg [00:23:30]:
He's a He

Dave [00:23:30]:
went to my he went to my college.

Greg [00:23:32]:
Did he go to He did. Did he go to your college?

Chad [00:23:34]:
He did.

Dave [00:23:34]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:23:35]:
And, he ended up in a ministry in Ohio, and now he's a speaker for Answers in Genesis and, the 1 blood, 1 race, and he does all that. But he says, God doesn't want you to be happy. He wants you to be holy. And when you're holy, you'll be happy.

Dave [00:23:54]:
That's a great way to say it.

Greg [00:23:55]:
Yeah. It's wonderful. And so everybody's looking for happiness, like, a good feeling, and that is their pursuit. And it's not about the this pursuit of happiness. It's Good

Dave [00:24:08]:
feeling in the moment. Right?

Greg [00:24:09]:
Yeah. It's the pursuit of holiness. Right. So your marriage is gonna be hard. It's gonna be work. And, you're an imperfect person, then you married an imperfect person. And you're gonna let them down, and they're gonna let you down. And, and when you work on it, and and you work on holiness in your marriage, there'll be a reward in the end, and you'll be happy.

Dave [00:24:32]:
That's great, Joy.

Greg [00:24:33]:
Now as I say that, I'm there's there's gonna be a listener out there that's in the middle of dealing with unfaithfulness or abuse. And I don't want to sound at all like I'm being insensitive to that because that's a a real hurt.

Chad [00:24:49]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:24:49]:
And nobody should ever stay in an abusive situation. Absolutely. That should never happen. But you're not leaving it so that you can be happy. You're leaving it so that you can be safe. It is not just to be happy. I just wanna be clear about that.

Chad [00:25:07]:
Yeah. Oh, very good.

Dave [00:25:08]:
That's great. Yeah. Good stuff. So the number one answer, big challenge, timeless challenge for a timeless episode Mhmm. Is doubting the word of God Yep. Is number one issue that the church is always gonna be challenged with.

Greg [00:25:22]:
Yep. It's been from the beginning. Like, that's that's what Paul's letters to Timothy were. Like, those are the big themes of of first, second Timothy and then the letter to Titus is about preach the word And season it out. And season it out.

Dave [00:25:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny because if you I hate the fact that chapters 34 are separated in 2nd Timothy because Those are

Greg [00:25:48]:
just man made markers. They're not separated.

Dave [00:25:51]:
Right. That's my point. Yeah. You make it sound like I'm saying something other than that.

Greg [00:25:55]:
You just fought into a lie.

Chad [00:25:57]:
Yeah. Now who's doubting scripture? Maybe

Dave [00:25:59]:
you must have skipped

Greg [00:26:01]:
maybe you skipped that class, or maybe they don't teach that at that class.

Dave [00:26:04]:
Talking about twisting words, Get thee behind me, Greg. You're twisting my words. So, by the way, you know, there's a joke about how would

Greg [00:26:13]:
have been great if you used the Paul Washer quote right there, but but you didn't.

Dave [00:26:20]:
So, you know, there is a joke about how the Bible's verses were made. Right? Mhmm. There's a and then it's a joke that, well, that they had they were in a hurry, and so they did it on horseback while they were riding to the printer. And so you can see why they just, like, if you're trying to divide verses on horseback while you're riding somewhere, you can see why it would be so chaotic, and that's kind of what happened. So anyway, 2nd Timothy 34 are divided by verses and chapter. Right? They're one unified section, and it's a bummer that that happened because chapter 4 basically 1 through 6 is all about preach the word, preach the word, and often it gets preached separately from chapter 3, which is, hey. In the last days, bad things are gonna happen, bad people are gonna be there. You remember the scriptures, and then it ends that chapter ends with all scriptures inspired by God, profitable for truth correction instruction in righteousness so that the man of God might be thoroughly equipped for a good work.

Dave [00:27:22]:
Right? And then it goes into 4, preach the word.

Chad [00:27:26]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:27:26]:
Right? And so if you wanna know how to do ministry in the modern era in the last days, preach the word. Got all these bad things that are going to come up? Preach the word, so don't abandon it. Don't go the other way. Preach the word. Love love that flow of thought. And, if I ever had to preach on a philosophy of ministry, I'd go right there.

Greg [00:27:46]:
And then and then Paul warns in there about those the ticklers of ears. And that those are the ones who just are gonna say anything you wanna hear. Oh, yeah. Mhmm. And that's, like, did God really say? Mhmm. Like, let's deconstruct your faith. Let's say the things that are gonna make the make you comfortable. Mhmm.

Greg [00:28:04]:
Let's say the things that are gonna fill our churches. Let's take anything that might make people feel uncomfortable. We won't mention them. Skip it. We're gonna try to soften them so that we can be accepting of more people so that we can, like we're not we're not gonna call it affirming. We're not gonna call it affirming. We're just gonna we wanna be as accepting and warm and welcoming as we can. And and really comes down to tickling ears.

Greg [00:28:35]:
And I I just love the the expression, what you catch them with, you have to keep them with. If you catch people with gimmicks, if you catch people with self help, if you catch people with a show, you gotta keep them with that. Yeah. But if they're caught with conviction and with the gospel and with the life changing truth of God God's word, then that truth, the authority of God's scripture is what's going to keep them around because they'll be submitting to that. Yeah.

Dave [00:29:03]:
Yeah. I've been at churches that have good stands on bible and sexuality, but then when somebody's preaching, they'll get to a passage that's tough, and because they don't because they don't want to be controversial, they'll just skip over those verses.

Chad [00:29:20]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:29:21]:
And that to me, that's compromise.

Greg [00:29:24]:
I would agree.

Dave [00:29:25]:
Yeah. There's no place for that in the church.

Greg [00:29:28]:
I would agree.

Dave [00:29:28]:
Dun dun dun dun. I think we hit number 1 pretty heavily. We did. Pretty good. We did. Now What's your number 2? Are we Number yeah.

Chad [00:29:35]:
Let let's let's see how far we get. Number 2, again, we have it is the year 2024. And so I will mention the year again because number 2 is political divisions. What? Yes. Political what? Exactly. Well, the church isn't supposed

Dave [00:29:55]:
to talk about politics. Right?

Greg [00:29:56]:
No. We're not. Oh, right. Yep.

Chad [00:29:59]:
And yet. Well, so

Dave [00:30:02]:
what does that mean to not talk about politics?

Chad [00:30:05]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:30:07]:
We're not gonna talk about any issue that relates to politics.

Dave [00:30:13]:
So what about political issues that are theological and moral?

Greg [00:30:20]:
Politics, we can't talk about it. Yep.

Dave [00:30:23]:
I'm trying to read your face right now.

Greg [00:30:25]:
Can't talk about it.

Dave [00:30:26]:
So okay. So are you saying that the church should be silent on abortion?

Chad [00:30:30]:
I'm playing the devil's advocate.

Dave [00:30:32]:
I understand.

Greg [00:30:33]:
A political issue.

Dave [00:30:35]:
Okay. So but it's a moral issue as well.

Greg [00:30:39]:
That might make people uncomfortable. They didn't come to hear that. They came for you to make them feel good about themselves so so that they can go out into the world and live a good week.

Dave [00:30:49]:
Oh, I thought they I thought we're supposed to preach the gospel and teach the word and preach the word in season and

Greg [00:30:56]:
out. There it is again. But that that's then then the church won't grow if we're doing that.

Dave [00:31:04]:
So maybe it just won't grow in the way that you want it to grow.

Greg [00:31:09]:
Devil's advocate in me.

Dave [00:31:11]:
Right.

Greg [00:31:11]:
Yeah. Right.

Dave [00:31:12]:
Okay. I'm working with you. Alright. Good. Yeah. So is it really growth if you're just wooing unsaved people to your church, or are you a goat farm?

Greg [00:31:24]:
Oh, a goat farm.

Dave [00:31:26]:
Anybody know yeah. I know you guys know what this is a reference to, but do we wanna explain it for our listeners?

Chad [00:31:32]:
I'll let you go.

Dave [00:31:33]:
Alright. So in Matthew 24 through 26, you hear about Jesus separating the sheep and the goats. Mhmm. Sheep are the children of God, and the goats are either the children of God or the nations that didn't follow after God, so depending on your interpretation. But either way, the goats are non God followers or non Jesus followers. So if you're a goat farm, then you're just building a church. Greg, oh, devil's advocate. You're just building a church that's full of unsaved people.

Dave [00:32:04]:
Right. But what we want?

Greg [00:32:06]:
If we can get as many people as we can, then maybe some of them will turn into sheep.

Dave [00:32:10]:
So a goat in sheep's

Chad [00:32:12]:
clothing? Possibly. I'll take that.

Dave [00:32:18]:
So, yeah, do you ever hear of, like, people that raise wild animals in their home? Oh.

Greg [00:32:24]:
You know? I've had children. Yes. Same.

Dave [00:32:27]:
Well, I'm I'm speaking literally, not metaphorically here. I literally wanna raise a lion in my home. Every once in a while, you'll hear about something like this happening. Right? And or even, like, do you know the some of the worst of the chimpanzees, actually? Like, people like, oh, it's Bobo the chimp. It's so cute in the diaper. And then they become adolescent chimpanzees and then mature chimpanzees, and they've, like, torn people's faces off Yeah. Because they're wild animals. Yeah.

Dave [00:32:55]:
And you cannot change the nature of a wild animal.

Chad [00:32:59]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:33:00]:
So if you wanna have that wolf dog, you're taking a chance letting your kids be around them because you might lose your kid's face because that's a wolf dog. It's not a domesticated dog. So that's what you want? Oh, devil's advocate, Craig. In your church, a bunch of

Chad [00:33:16]:
Well, but

Dave [00:33:17]:
goats in sheep's clothing. They're gonna ram you. It just doesn't sound as bad as losing your face, does it?

Chad [00:33:25]:
No. It doesn't. Yeah. It is a it is a political election year. And in America today, the divisions have never well, they were worse once circa 1845 to 1865. But outside of that, this is about as bad as it's been from a historical standpoint. Fair.

Dave [00:33:46]:
We haven't had any fist fights in the in the congress yet, but It's been close. Close. It's very close.

Chad [00:33:51]:
It's been very close.

Dave [00:33:52]:
They just do it on Twitter instead. Oh, I'm sorry. X instead.

Chad [00:33:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. So x slash Twitter, stop deadnaming x.

Dave [00:34:03]:
That's right. I just there's so much I wanna say, but we gotta stay on topic.

Chad [00:34:07]:
I know. Yeah. It I I saw this in 2020. Well, 2020 was kind of its own unique animal anyways. Right? Because you had COVID on layered on top of everything else. Right. But there were division divisions in the church that I would have never thought I would have seen, and people just go and add it in social media and in person.

Dave [00:34:32]:
Yep.

Chad [00:34:33]:
Friendships destroyed over political things that, you know, when I was growing up and well into the nineties and beyond, you know, oh, turns out we disagree about this. Mhmm. You all go see a movie?

Dave [00:34:50]:
Right. It used to be. It used to be.

Chad [00:34:52]:
Yeah. But now on both sides, there's this mentality that, oh, you don't fall this way? I must cut you out of my life.

Greg [00:35:03]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:35:04]:
Yeah. And I think what's contributed to that, there was just how divisive these issues really are. Like if you're saying, look, like if you voted for the pro abortion candidate because you didn't like the other candidate, that's hard for people to manage if you really believe strongly in a pro life message. Yeah. And you're like, as a Christian, you're voting for the pro death candidate? And I said it that way on purpose because that's how people process it. Mhmm. The other person may not even be thinking about abortion when they're making that vote. It might be completely different issue, but this you know, and that's part of helping people realize, like, these issues are a lot more complex than we like to make them.

Dave [00:35:45]:
Yeah. But yeah. I I think yeah. It's just really sad that we can't seem to have people who can, like, have long in-depth conversations.

Greg [00:35:56]:
Yeah. I think one of the problems is that people think that they become moral based on how they vote vote. Some people. Yeah. So some some people

Dave [00:36:08]:
You mean, like, the virtue signaling concept?

Greg [00:36:10]:
I'm I would think on both.

Dave [00:36:12]:
I would stand.

Greg [00:36:13]:
Go in in both directions. So people who believe that it is it is, you know, Jesus said, take care of the poor. So I'm going to vote so that taxes are used to take care of the poor. I am now doing a good thing, and I'm a good person. On the flip side, I believe that God very much upholds the sanctity of life. So I am going to vote single issue for the candidates who will support the sanctity of life. And in doing that, I have made a godly choice. And and people really think that they've scored a moral point for themselves when

Dave [00:36:59]:
they do that. So like the way you guys were saying responded to my virtue signaling, you made it sound like virtue signaling works only one direction. Direction. Like, I I think virtue signaling can be done on both sides.

Chad [00:37:12]:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It can. Yeah.

Dave [00:37:13]:
Okay. Yeah.

Chad [00:37:14]:
It's more predominant on one side, though.

Dave [00:37:16]:
Okay. Or at least the accusation in any way. Right?

Chad [00:37:18]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:37:18]:
Yeah. Okay.

Chad [00:37:19]:
Which means the 3 of us are off the hook because we've all talked about it now. I never virtue signal. Wait a second.

Dave [00:37:30]:
I see a contradiction here. Yeah. So how do you make a distinction between being political and being appropriate in the church in terms of how you talk about it? Like, someone says, oh, you're just being political. Okay. What's the legitimate counter to that? No. This issue is

Greg [00:37:52]:
well, there's a yeah. You would you already said there's a there's a theological issue here to discuss. And, wait. I just wanna

Dave [00:38:08]:
No. So But you acknowledge the truth of it. Can you at least admit it? So for example Go for it. I agree

Greg [00:38:16]:
with you. I heard this discussed on a program the other day. The city of San Francisco had a decrease in homelessness, and it was a it was a significant percentage. But when you dive into it, they also had a large amount of deaths from drug overdoses. So so the reality is that they have just let, one problem take care of another in that overdoses is helping solve the and I I don't mean to be crass or insensitive, but overdoses is taking care of a homeless problem. There are less homeless people in the city of San Francisco. So they've did they've taken care of of a problem just with the drug overdoses. And they can they can talk about caring for the homeless and caring and showing compassion because they're allowing them to have homeless camps and doing all these sensitive things and handing out needles, but they're really being hateful.

Greg [00:39:21]:
Yeah. They're really lacking compassion. Mhmm. What they're doing is immoral. So, like, it becomes a theological issue, how we take care of people and how we really go about doing these things, how we value life, how we protect people's dignity as they are image bearers of God.

Dave [00:39:44]:
So interesting question here. If you were in San Francisco and pastoring, do you think you would talk about the homeless issue and how that's being used as a solution, and would you preach about that?

Greg [00:39:58]:
Yeah. I think you would you would have to, and, you would have to address it, and you would have to you know, you would be it'd be really hard because you're you're standing against a a mountain that's that's seems almost insurmountable because of the political climate there, which is why it it really needs to be a national discussion in just how we're they're all tied together. The the the border is not a political issue. It is a moral issue.

Dave [00:40:36]:
Okay. So would you preach about the border?

Greg [00:40:39]:
I think that you could have to talk about the theological implications that protecting the dignity of life, means not allowing people just to come in and flood in, and and having a porous border that allows all kinds of drugs to come in.

Dave [00:41:00]:
Certainly, it's that's an argument against fentanyl. Right?

Greg [00:41:04]:
Right. And and the human trafficking, like, you have to point those things out so that solutions can be offered.

Dave [00:41:11]:
So the question to me then is how often would you I mean, realistically, I'm just curious at this point now because I I see a place for it, But if that becomes the driving force of your preaching ministry, it's probably and I'm not saying you're suggesting that, but that's gotta there's gotta be a balance. Right? Right. Well, balance may not even be the term. That that can't be majority of your messages or can't be even half of your messages.

Greg [00:41:36]:
How that comes about is when you come to passages that talk about dealing with the poor, that discussions about the poor need to include that. When you talk about the oppressed, it needs to include that. Mhmm. Right now, you know, in in some churches, when they talk about the alien and the foreigner and and this and that, they say that we need to open our borders and let everybody come in because Jesus

Dave [00:42:04]:
was a a refugee Undocumented refugee.

Greg [00:42:06]:
An undocumented refugee, and we just need to welcome everybody. Let's look at the other side of that. Let let now let's talk about the theological implications of of, of refugees and and the obligations to the poor. Let's let's have a more well rounded discussion on those things.

Dave [00:42:26]:
Full orbed theological discussion Yeah. That deals with those issues. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. So I've made a distinction and

Chad [00:42:37]:
see what

Dave [00:42:37]:
you guys think about this, but I I think both for legal reasons, especially if you're a tax free organization or whatever, for more theological reasons, I would make a distinction between being a partisan political making partisan political comments versus making sound theological biblical comments on moral issues that affect our society. Yeah. And so I think we could have a conversation. In fact, in this conversation, not one of us has brought up a single party or how to vote. I have no problem saying, hey. There's an issue coming up. If you vote, if you're a Christian, and you value the scriptures, then you should vote this way. Yeah.

Dave [00:43:25]:
But only but I would only do that on a particular issue, and I wouldn't make it a Republican, Democratic, Independent issue. I would just talk about that single theological issue. So if your state has an abortion amendment coming up, how are you gonna vote on that as a Christian? Right. Right? Are you going to put a sign up in your church that says vote yes, vote no? Well, if it's a theological issue, I would have no problem doing that.

Greg [00:43:57]:
Right.

Dave [00:43:58]:
And if you're not willing to stand up and tell people what you believe, we say, well, some people might lose respect for you. Yeah, but some people might gain respect for you. Yeah. And so as long as it's not a partisan discussion, and so that's the kind of issue? Right. And yes, moral issues that get voted on become partisan issues in some senses, but when you discuss it, then keep the partisan part out and just stick to to the moral theological issue. Yeah. That's kinda how I would handle it. But

Chad [00:44:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, you know, being a student of history, I kinda look back, and the obvious comparison is to slavery.

Dave [00:44:47]:
There

Chad [00:44:47]:
were pastors that regularly, even in the deep south, took great risks to themselves to preach against slavery on a regular basis. And they really didn't care about the consequences. They really didn't care about what was gonna happen to them or their buildings or anything else. They just preached the word, and it was a great cost to them. But that's kind of the comparison I make today is certain you know, I mean, if

Greg [00:45:18]:
I was ever in a church where a

Chad [00:45:19]:
pastor was going out about subsection 3.7 of the latest senate bill 655 and how that element of the tax code is going to impact accounting, I think I would lose my mind and probably never go back. But I mean, that's obviously a horrible example and completely political. But there are any given generation or any given swath of history, you're going to have 2 or 3 different moral issues that transcend politics. And, I mean, I think you said legal considerations. They maybe we don't have legal considerations at that point. Maybe we're we're at a point where we're just saying this is the right thing to do. Here's the scripture. Mhmm.

Chad [00:46:09]:
Here's what it says, and I'm preaching on it.

Dave [00:46:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. I would never yeah. I agree with you a 100%. Now. The thing about it is morally, as long as it's a moral issue, we can preach about it.

Chad [00:46:20]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:46:21]:
But if if if a church suddenly becomes vote for this party, then they're they've opened themselves up to legal repercussions for their tax status. I would say if we ever come to the point where preaching about a theological moral issue means we're losing our tax status, I will personally walk down to the government and undo our tax status, and we'll pay taxes on everything we get as a church. I'm totally good with that if that's what we need to do.

Greg [00:46:48]:
Just to be clear on that issue, what what you can you can't say vote for this party, but what you can say is, this issue is coming up. This is the biblical side of this issue. This is the unbiblical of the issue, and this is the candidate that supports the biblical side of this issue. You you can say it that way.

Dave [00:47:07]:
And I I do know a lot of churches that just provide material that shows what the candidates believe on each of the issues, and that's, I think, is very helpful for Christians.

Greg [00:47:17]:
And the church can educate. Yes. Like, the church can there are some people who think that the church just needs to be Bible and that's it. And I'm not arguing that the church needs to venture into everything else, but but when there are important cultural, national issues, the church can educate the body about those things. And, like, on the issue of gender and sexuality right now, I think it's important for the church to educate, its members about what is going on. And and because I think a lot of members have been really caught off guard, and it's been good to educate them on those things. And when there are when there are proposals, sometimes those proposals being voted on in your state, whatever they may be, proposals, amendments, whatever, that reach a significant level of importance, sometimes they are worth discussing Mhmm. With your congregation in in in one way or another.

Greg [00:48:26]:
And it can be good to do if it's done the right way.

Dave [00:48:30]:
But I think you and I would agree that it would not be something you would never talk about something that isn't a biblical, theological, or what might call a worldview issue.

Greg [00:48:40]:
Correct.

Dave [00:48:40]:
Yeah. Right? So in that sense, you're not really getting away from the Bible. Right. Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah.

Chad [00:48:46]:
And I think that overlaying all of this is it's really important if the pastor is going to stick their neck out to make these statements. Right? It's really important that a good healthy Bible based church would have their back because odds are somebody's gonna get mad. Right? Probably someone inside the church these days. Definitely someone that hears about it from outside the church or

Greg [00:49:14]:
at the periphery

Chad [00:49:15]:
of the church is gonna be mad. And it's super important that as a believer, as a as a member of the church, as a regular attender, as an elder, or whatever else, that you've gotta have your pastor's back on that stuff.

Dave [00:49:27]:
I've got a really good friend. We used to be elder together, and he's a lawyer. And his whole gig as a lawyer is risk mitigation. Right? Sure. I mean, if you're a lawyer, that's the first thing you think of on anything. But what was really cool was to see how as a believer he was able to set aside the risk mitigation and go you know what this is a biblical issue I don't care about the risks We've got to take a stand because this is the important thing. Yeah. It was really good to work with him.

Dave [00:49:59]:
So that's pretty much number 1 and number 2. Yeah. We got a few more to hit.

Chad [00:50:03]:
We have at least 4 more to hit and probably more. So we're at 2 and 3 in the next 2 weeks. And then yeah. Okay. Alright. Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review.

Chad [00:50:35]:
If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee dot com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.