Challenges for the Church in 2024 and Beyond Pt.2 (Timeless)

We discuss what we think the biggest challenges are for the church in 2024 and beyond.  It's a big topic, so this kicks off a three-part series.  In this episode we discuss the rise of the Millennials and Generation Z into church leadership.

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:01]:
If if anything makes me quit this podcast, it's gonna be it's gonna be the boomer. Come on, man. I'm gonna take my ball and go home. I'm gonna take my lawnmower and

Greg [00:00:11]:
Don't don't worry. He'll show up next week because he'll forget he was upset.

Dave [00:00:15]:
Oh, snap. That's probably true.

Chad [00:00:18]:
Sohra, I need one hour of somebody holding down a conversation with myself and Greg, and they should be approaching the age of 60.

Dave [00:00:29]:
6? Woah.

Greg [00:01:00]:
Stop tapping your watch on your forehead, Dave.

Dave [00:01:02]:
Yes. For the record, it did not happen.

Greg [00:01:06]:
I think that we have, photographic evidence of it.

Dave [00:01:09]:
Post it. Post it.

Greg [00:01:11]:
Okay. If you're

Dave [00:01:12]:
gonna if you're gonna make that claim, you gotta bring the receipts.

Greg [00:01:15]:
Challenge accepted. Sourah, show

Chad [00:01:18]:
me Dave tapping his Apple Watch to his forehead.

Dave [00:01:22]:
Wait. Is that the is that the, the AI generator? Yeah. Well, don't worry. It'll have me looking like an African American. Well, no. Because That's Gemini. Gemini. Okay.

Chad [00:01:32]:
Yeah. Sora is text to video where you literally say, I wanna see puppies playing in the snow. Okay. And within 10 seconds, you've got puppies playing in the snow. And it's high quality video, and they look completely real. I bet you I'd

Dave [00:01:46]:
be really good looking in that video. Perhaps. Especially if I said Sora? Is that what it is? Yeah. Sora, have a good looking day. Playing with puppies and touching an Apple watch to his forehead. My wife would like that because of the puppies.

Greg [00:02:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a famous Dave. Dave Thomas from Wendy's?

Dave [00:02:16]:
There's a lot of famous Dave's.

Greg [00:02:17]:
Might be better.

Dave [00:02:18]:
The most famous Dave is Dave from the old testament. Although he goes by Dawid in Greek. Or, you know, because of the how the the Hebrew script and the vowel pointing Mhmm. David is how it's pronounced in the Old Testament, but because there's a dot, you could also pronounce it as dude. Dude. Right? Because of how yeah. So Dude. It's okay.

Dave [00:02:48]:
I love my name. Dude. You say, dude. Dude.

Greg [00:02:52]:
So what's the AI's name? Sora, s o r a. Sora.

Dave [00:02:55]:
Show me a picture, dude.

Greg [00:02:59]:
Dude, playing with grass.

Dave [00:03:03]:
Playing with grass? I'm sorry. What is that? Is that some drug reference that I don't understand?

Chad [00:03:08]:
Grass, like in your lawn.

Greg [00:03:09]:
In your lawn. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:03:10]:
So picture The stuff you yell at the kids' pussy office. Off of. Off of. Yeah. My lawn.

Greg [00:03:14]:
It's totally what we were talking about.

Dave [00:03:16]:
Dude. I have a feeling that this is not what you were talking about, but No. No. This is where my 5 year seniority of you, Craig.

Greg [00:03:23]:
You're not old at all, Dave.

Dave [00:03:25]:
I am I am a gen x, just for the record.

Greg [00:03:29]:
Okay. Under the wire. Okay, boomer.

Dave [00:03:32]:
If if anything makes me quit this podcast, it's gonna be it's gonna be the boomer. Come on, man. I'm gonna take my ball and go home. I'm gonna take my lawnmower and

Greg [00:03:41]:
Don't don't worry. He'll show up next week because he'll forget he was upset.

Dave [00:03:45]:
Oh, snap. That's probably true.

Chad [00:03:48]:
Sora, I need one hour of somebody holding down a conversation with myself and Greg, and they should be approaching the age of 60.

Dave [00:04:00]:
6? Woah. That just that just accelerated. I know. My growth my my age just, like wow. That's brutal. I'm not approaching 50. No.

Greg [00:04:12]:
I'm looking at your computer screen. Okay. So sorry. He's got a little more hair than that.

Chad [00:04:17]:
Oh, that's yeah. I guess. It forgot the goatee.

Greg [00:04:23]:
Okay. Yeah. There we go.

Dave [00:04:26]:
It's the only thing that makes me look a little older is my gray goatee, handsome gray

Greg [00:04:32]:
goatee. Yep.

Dave [00:04:33]:
That's Did I tell you the story about how I started to wear goatee? Sorry, Joanna. Yeah. I'm gonna throw you under the bus on this one.

Greg [00:04:41]:
Oh. Can't wait to hear this.

Dave [00:04:42]:
So she'll appreciate it. Probably around 26, 28 years old, I decide that I can finally grow goatee and not be embarrassed by it. So I grow the goatee. That was like

Greg [00:04:54]:
the mid eighties? No.

Dave [00:04:56]:
No. This is no. This is late nineties. Late nineties.

Greg [00:05:01]:
Okay.

Dave [00:05:02]:
So, yeah, so I grow it, and she you can tell she's not happy with me. And then finally, she says, Dave, can can you can you just shave that? She I go, well, why? She goes, Dave, you look like Robin Hood. Right? That was the accusation. I looked like Robin Hood, and I so I was I was a little hurt, but I stuck with it. Right? So I just I ignored it. I knew.

Chad [00:05:27]:
Now wait a minute. Were you wearing green tights?

Dave [00:05:31]:
For the record, I've never worn green tights.

Greg [00:05:33]:
Okay.

Chad [00:05:34]:
What color were they? Blue. Okay.

Greg [00:05:39]:
So put Dave in the glass with blue tights on.

Dave [00:05:43]:
Yellow shoes.

Greg [00:05:43]:
Okay. I see it. There you go.

Dave [00:05:45]:
Bells on the end of it. Like like an elf from Lord of the Rings. Anyway, so, yeah. So 2 years later, I shave it just as kind of a lark, and she goes, I hate that. Don't you ever shave it again? And I was like, wait. I thought I looked like Robin Hood. She goes, oh, never mind. So I'm in trouble for telling this story, but it's a true story.

Dave [00:06:06]:
And Okay. She yeah. She's gonna be like, why do you have to tell stories

Chad [00:06:10]:
about me? Okay.

Dave [00:06:10]:
Love you, babe.

Greg [00:06:13]:
And I

Dave [00:06:13]:
made it doubly worse by saying that last part. Love you, babe? No. Oh, the last part before the love you, babe, which was why do you have to tell stories about me? Oh, okay. Now I just got in trouble. 3rd time.

Chad [00:06:24]:
Oh, man. This is bad.

Dave [00:06:27]:
Come on, dude. Come on. Come on. Come on. My Philly wife.

Chad [00:06:32]:
Alright. So we're talking about what are we talking about?

Dave [00:06:38]:
Cut that part out, dude. What's what are we talking about?

Greg [00:06:42]:
I don't know.

Dave [00:06:43]:
This podcast, we're not prepared.

Chad [00:06:46]:
We're talking about challenges for the church in the year 2024 and beyond. And this is gonna end up being a multipart series because we had 6 to go through, and I think we made it through 1a half on the last episode. So Hey. That's progress. It is. It is. Maybe not good progress. So we talked a little bit about theological compromise.

Chad [00:07:08]:
Wait. I think. Right? That was as

Dave [00:07:10]:
a subheading to Yeah. Doubting the scriptures.

Chad [00:07:14]:
So Doubting the scripture. Yeah. Doubting what God says. So we talked about, the inerrancy of scripture and doubting scripture. Yep. And, the election was Has God really said? Same play every time. And we started to talk about political divisions a little bit too. Mhmm.

Chad [00:07:26]:
So I think we can, pick up and talk about that a little bit more because it is an election year as we record this, and the forces of darkness of 1 party are arrayed against the forces of darkness of the other party and all the fixings that go with that. Next up on the list though, I mean, we can talk about that, but I also have changing demographics. So we have some aging folks. We have some boomers. Gen x is approaching late stage middle age, and then, we've got the

Greg [00:07:57]:
Wait. What? Gen x is late stage middle age? Yeah. Cool.

Dave [00:08:01]:
I would agree.

Greg [00:08:02]:
What? Yeah. It's getting there. I'm still 30.

Dave [00:08:05]:
55. 55. You were 9.

Greg [00:08:06]:
I'm still 30.

Dave [00:08:07]:
Let's try.

Chad [00:08:08]:
I feel 30.

Dave [00:08:09]:
You don't? No. No. You don't.

Greg [00:08:11]:
I I do. I do. I was having this conversation my

Dave [00:08:15]:
stuff right now. No. It doesn't feel 30.

Greg [00:08:18]:
Stop touching me, Dave.

Chad [00:08:19]:
Squishy. I feel I feel violated for you. Okay.

Dave [00:08:23]:
I just poked your bicep.

Chad [00:08:27]:
We'll cut that part. Well, I'll clip it. I just poked your and then I can put whatever I want in after that. And then you could add in

Dave [00:08:34]:
the I will not approve it,

Greg [00:08:36]:
and I just saw it part. You could add in one of those other, statements he's made professing his.

Dave [00:08:45]:
Alright. Yep. Oh, that's bad.

Greg [00:08:47]:
I'm not middle aged. Okay. I'm still 30. Alright.

Dave [00:08:51]:
Keep keep telling yourself that.

Greg [00:08:53]:
Okay.

Dave [00:08:54]:
You're, like, 20 years off, aren't you? 19, 20 years off.

Greg [00:08:57]:
Not 20 years off. K.

Dave [00:09:03]:
That's like, let let let them keep thinking that. Okay. Okay. Yeah. You don't sound 30. It's not your voice. It's the content in your the comportment of your speech. Comportment.

Dave [00:09:16]:
Oh, sorry. Like, a tuck, I'd like, a a swallow in the cream. Probably don't wanna turn off listeners. Yeah. With the uptalk, I would like the foam on my latte to be in the shape of a a heart. You know what I'm

Greg [00:09:40]:
talking about? I think so.

Dave [00:09:42]:
Yeah. No. That's the that's the uptalk. Uptick? Uptalk. It's actually a thing. It's it's it's the modern, like, fake West Coast speech of what I was just doing.

Greg [00:09:53]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:09:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's Uptalk.

Greg [00:09:55]:
I thought it was Uptalk. Uptalk? Uptalk? No. People who aren't

Dave [00:09:59]:
really certain

Greg [00:09:59]:
about what they have to say. Are

Chad [00:10:01]:
you sure?

Greg [00:10:02]:
So when they make

Dave [00:10:02]:
statements, envision yeah. Is this your automobile? I don't know. It's a bad example.

Greg [00:10:09]:
Okay. I think I know the answer, but I'm not really sure. I could be right.

Dave [00:10:14]:
It's Man. Very annoying. Uptalk. It's not uptake for sure. Okay. See, I told you, Greg. I do know the lingo. I'm hip to that jive.

Dave [00:10:25]:
My best jokes are just off the cuff. You can't try to recreate the the magic.

Chad [00:10:32]:
These are tears of joy, Greg. No.

Greg [00:10:36]:
Let me introduce you to Sunnydale Retirement Community.

Chad [00:10:40]:
Early retirement for Dave. I see.

Dave [00:10:45]:
If you're 30, I'm 35, so just remember that.

Chad [00:10:48]:
Yeah. Okay, boomer. So I will say that Greg could be right because I believe he said he's 30 years old. Right? I think a Martian year is about 1.8 Earth years, which would align to about 30.

Dave [00:11:09]:
K.

Greg [00:11:10]:
Good thinking. Mhmm. Yeah.

Dave [00:11:13]:
Or you could take So changing dynamics 2 thirds of 30 and add

Greg [00:11:17]:
it to So Gen X is reaching

Dave [00:11:19]:
You don't want people to know your real age. Is that what it is? So you like a woman?

Chad [00:11:24]:
What?

Dave [00:11:25]:
Well, women don't like their age. I'd like I don't know too many guys that don't care about their age. Women, they're like, don't tell my age.

Greg [00:11:31]:
So Dave's, like, on this mission to offend everybody today, I think. Man, he's already got his wife set with them. Yep. He ticked off a bunch of millennials. Yep. Just Now he's just like

Dave [00:11:42]:
Because of the uptalk? How did I tick off millennials other than saying that they have not contributed anything except the meme to our culture? Just digging a hole.

Chad [00:11:55]:
Yep.

Dave [00:11:58]:
Were were we not going for the insulting the millennial demographic this week?

Chad [00:12:03]:
No. That wasn't the intention.

Dave [00:12:05]:
Oh, okay.

Chad [00:12:06]:
In fact, my show notes say they're entering leadership in a lot of organizations now.

Dave [00:12:12]:
Well, at least they can bring some good memes with them. So I think the

Greg [00:12:20]:
mounting evidence for Dave being a boomer

Dave [00:12:25]:
You know what? If insulting millennials makes me a boomer, I'll take the makes me a boomer, I'll take the mantle.

Chad [00:12:31]:
So, yeah, we're actually starting to see millennials and the leading edge of Gen z starting to enter into areas of leadership or importance in various organizations, including the church.

Dave [00:12:43]:
Is is this why we're getting the trampolines and stuff at church?

Greg [00:12:48]:
It was like bread and circus.

Chad [00:12:51]:
Yeah. Yes. Nice.

Dave [00:12:52]:
Now that's a reference that a lot of millennials won't get. Do you I'm assuming you know the background of that. Right, Greg?

Greg [00:13:01]:
Yeah. That's because I used it. I

Dave [00:13:05]:
Yes. But I've I've seen some people use metaphor like purple Kool Aid, you know, drink the Kool Aid. Uh-huh. But like

Greg [00:13:13]:
right, it's it's the guy who broke through the wall, like, hey.

Chad [00:13:16]:
He jumped

Greg [00:13:17]:
through the wall of the big Kool Aid man. Oh, yeah.

Dave [00:13:20]:
Nice try. I know you know what drinking the purple Kool Aid first.

Greg [00:13:24]:
Okay.

Chad [00:13:25]:
I've never heard of color associated with it.

Greg [00:13:27]:
I've never heard colorist purple

Dave [00:13:28]:
Kool Aid Really?

Chad [00:13:29]:
You drank. Really? Grape grape drink.

Greg [00:13:31]:
You sure? Yeah. No. It was. 100% sure.

Dave [00:13:34]:
I'm pretty sure. Yeah.

Greg [00:13:36]:
Oh, you were sure, and then you Yeah. It's qualified.

Dave [00:13:39]:
I like, my whole life, I believed it to be purple kool aid. You a couple

Greg [00:13:43]:
of minutes ago, you couldn't remember that.

Dave [00:13:45]:
Let's go back, and let's what's the what's the historical reference?

Greg [00:13:49]:
It it was the the the What was the name of the call? That. I don't remember the name of the call.

Chad [00:13:54]:
It's Jim Jones.

Greg [00:13:54]:
Yeah. Jim Jones. Mhmm.

Dave [00:13:56]:
Not John Paul, but Jim.

Chad [00:13:58]:
Jim Jones. Yeah. Jim Jones.

Dave [00:13:59]:
Yeah. And the the gov US government was sending people down to investigate him, and he

Chad [00:14:05]:
I believe they killed a senator, didn't they?

Dave [00:14:07]:
They did. They actually murdered him. They didn't make him drink the Kool Aid. Right.

Chad [00:14:10]:
Yeah. And then they realized, yeah, they're gonna send special forces.

Dave [00:14:14]:
Yeah. This is it. Yep. So they they did they made them drink the Kool Aid. Yep. So

Greg [00:14:21]:
And while we're out here

Dave [00:14:22]:
Greg is over here making sure it's purple Kool Aid. I I can't if it's I want credit. I want credit when it says it's purple Kool Aid. Right now my change picture. Right now my Google isn't Googling. This whole time you've been trying to find out? I have

Greg [00:14:36]:
I have, and the Google's not Googling. Here we go. Alright.

Dave [00:14:40]:
See if Bing works.

Chad [00:14:41]:
Search on this.

Greg [00:14:42]:
It wasn't Kool Aid.

Dave [00:14:43]:
Oh. It was grape flavor.

Greg [00:14:45]:
Flavor Aid made by Gelsert.

Dave [00:14:48]:
That's funny. But was it purple? It was grape flavored. Ah, so you didn't wanna admit it was grape flavored, but

Greg [00:14:56]:
I I said it was you said it was purple flavored. I don't know what purple flavor is. This says it was grape flavored.

Dave [00:15:04]:
So but it's not grape drink. Though. Wasn't Kool Aid.

Greg [00:15:08]:
We should probably get away from this subject.

Chad [00:15:10]:
Probably. Yeah.

Greg [00:15:12]:
Oh, the part where you were right, you wanna make sure that I

Dave [00:15:15]:
let let it be known. Receipts were brought. They done been brought.

Greg [00:15:20]:
Yes. Even a blinds girl finds a nut every once in a while, Dave. Yes. Even a broken clock's right twice a day, Dave.

Dave [00:15:31]:
Could you use could you use jokes that haven't been used, like, a 1000000 times

Greg [00:15:36]:
already? Those aren't jokes.

Dave [00:15:38]:
Those are truisms. Oh, truisms. Okay. Yeah. Alright.

Chad [00:15:42]:
Alright. Let's all be nice now. Demographics of the church are changing. Right? So

Dave [00:15:47]:
That's what this whole is a bit about. That

Chad [00:15:49]:
yeah. Apparently. So, as as the boomers and gen xers kind of, enter Age out? Age out. Yep. Yep. Fun to hear about, isn't it?

Greg [00:16:03]:
So when a when a boomer wants to complain about a millennial Mhmm. My immediate reaction is, like, it's your fault. You raised them.

Dave [00:16:13]:
You raised them more than I did.

Greg [00:16:17]:
Like, you you brought them up. You the ones who taught them. You're the ones who discipled them. Mhmm. And the like, when you talk about Gen z coming up, Gen x raised the Gen z. So any problems that you wanna have with them, like, you raised them. So what did you what did you raise? What did you instill in them? What did you teach them?

Dave [00:16:39]:
So this is gonna sound like a 2 to me on the horn. I'm not. I probably just got lucky. I have 2 that are pretty counter their culture. My daughter is like an anti z. Like, she's an opposite of a z.

Greg [00:16:51]:
Isn't she a millennial?

Dave [00:16:53]:
She's right on that line. I'd have to ask her. She's right on that line. I don't know the exact demarcation. She's like that overlapping age though. She was born in 98. Some was in 95. So she's right on that edge, but she didn't like either of them.

Dave [00:17:08]:
Gen

Chad [00:17:09]:
z, I've got the the breakdown here.

Dave [00:17:12]:
And that's an can can we talk about that premise, though? Because I'm not sure I really buy that premise. Yes. We're responsible for raising our kids, and I I do think that part of why my kids are not exactly what their culture is is because we we tried to teach them to be biblical where their culture seems to to screw with the Bible. They seem to be counterculture, so that's something I greatly appreciate about them. At some level, there are social things that we can are so subtle we taught that I'm not sure we even see them in the moment. Like, there's stuff that's really obvious, but, like okay. So we talked about technology in the past here, and how much do you really know about the influence of technology on a mindset, the first generation of it?

Greg [00:18:01]:
I think the the advent of smart devices caught everybody off guard, and it took 10 it took 10 years before people realized Right. How serious it was. Yeah.

Dave [00:18:12]:
And I don't wanna say that parents aren't responsible to raise their kids because that's not my point. But at some level, there is this kind of stuff that's it's like the in a radiator in an old, like an old heating radiator in a house that you you stop hearing after a while. Mhmm. And then you just it just becomes part of the fabric. And I think some some of what why generations are different is because of that kind of a cultural reality. If you if you can't pick that up, if you don't have a really sensitive discernment, you know, structure with, filtering those things from a biblical worldview, it's gonna be really easy to miss that. I do think there is a sense in which the culture raises your kids too in a way that is is so subtle that it's hard for parents to see.

Chad [00:18:58]:
Yeah. There's gonna be unavoidable influences, and I think that one of them that gets missed on a lot of folks is shared experiences. Right? Technology, the smartphone, all that stuff, very, very real. Right? I mean, you you you I'm a tech dude, and I can tell you, it influences everything. It influences your thought life. It influences your aspirations. Kids today say, I wanna be a YouTuber when I grow up, or I wanna be a TikToker when I grow up. It's possible to do it.

Chad [00:19:30]:
You can live off that. There are people that do and actually quite a few people that do. Probably not the best career plan, but it's possible, and that didn't exist 15 years ago.

Greg [00:19:40]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:19:41]:
And

Chad [00:19:41]:
and the other shared experience the the shared experience piece really can't be overlooked. Generation Z is age 10 to 25, and that's where both of my kids are at. And the 2 big influences that they have are probably the technology piece. I guess the 2 big influences that they would have would be political strife and COVID.

Greg [00:20:10]:
Because Do

Dave [00:20:10]:
they do they remember? Does anybody in Gen z remember not having a cell phone?

Chad [00:20:15]:
I don't think they do.

Dave [00:20:16]:
Because they were so young when when phones are just becoming popular. Yep. Yeah.

Greg [00:20:21]:
Yeah. No. My kids do. Like, my kids didn't get cell phones until they were at the end of middle school.

Dave [00:20:30]:
Okay. But what I'm saying is that the average 25 year old today, do they remember a time when cell phones weren't available? That's not the same thing having a cell phone yet.

Greg [00:20:39]:
Weren't available. Yeah. Yeah. They don't know what

Dave [00:20:41]:
that is. Because basically at the end of the millennium. Right?

Chad [00:20:43]:
Yeah. By by the early 2000, Blackberry's, remember those, those were fairly common. Remember my first flip phone?

Dave [00:20:52]:
Damn. So wow.

Greg [00:20:53]:
As a youth pastor, I remember I remember who the first student in my youth group was who carried a cell phone in into youth group. Actually, I'll go back into into college. Yeah. I I remember the first student in bible college who had carried a cell phone into class, and it was almost as if he, like, was out in the hallway and called somebody and said, I'm going into class right now, so call me in 4 minutes. And he walked into class, and the class started, and his phone rang. So that was in, 1995. 95. 95.

Greg [00:21:33]:
And then, Just

Dave [00:21:34]:
for the record, that's when I was graduating from seminary.

Greg [00:21:37]:
Cemetery? Yeah.

Dave [00:21:38]:
Good. Seminary.

Greg [00:21:39]:
So, yeah, I think I was, like, a sophomore I was a junior then by then. And then and then as a youth pastor, I remember the first high school student who brought a, a cell phone to youth group, and that would have been around what? It would have been around 2,001. K. And then I remember the first middle school student, because we had middle school youth group, and I remember the first I remember who it was, the first middle school student who brought a phone to youth group, and he was actually in 6th grade when he brought it. And that was in that was in 2,006. Yeah.

Dave [00:22:24]:
So were you annoyed by cell phones, especially when texting first became popular? Did you find that annoying as a youth pastor?

Greg [00:22:35]:
No, I didn't find that annoying at all.

Dave [00:22:37]:
So one time when I was back at one faculty at the Bible College, I was asked invited to speak to campus ministers for a for a, like, a one of their convention type things. And one of the things that I said was okay. So, I really angered the whole director of it because I said the yin and yang of college ministry. Right? And he was very offended that I said yin and yang. All I was doing was the push and pull. Right?

Greg [00:23:04]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:23:04]:
Yeah. So, yeah, anyway

Chad [00:23:06]:
Did he understand your background?

Dave [00:23:09]:
I told him my background. Okay. And what

Chad [00:23:11]:
was that again? No.

Dave [00:23:12]:
I'm not saying I'm not you can say it if you want, but so if you've been listening for a while, you know why I'm not saying this. So, so, anyway, so I I mentioned it, and I said, so you here's the thing. You guys get 5 minutes to complain about anything you want about ministering to this generation. Right? Because they they were kind of a conservative group, and they were really going through some growing pains with reference to being culturally relevant because it was a pretty strict kind of culturally strict background in Baptist churches that they were coming from. And so I the biggest complaint that they had was these kids and their cell phones. Like, they don't pay attention. They're on their cell phones. They're not paying attention.

Dave [00:23:54]:
They're on their cell phones. Right? And so, you know, my point was, okay, is it a neutral thing? Is the technology neutral or not? You gotta make a you gotta make a decision on that. If it's neutral, then there's gotta be a way that you could teach him to use it, and how can you use it effectively, and and how can you retool your expectations. Right? Because, I mean, at some point, you're either gonna get mad at him and blow up and lose him, or you're gonna go, okay. How can I use this technology to my advantage? And I even challenged him. I said, I this is way before, like, those quiz apps and things like that. But I was like, how could you use this technology in a way that's helpful to your ministry with them? And, you know, this is before I just look up anything, so I couldn't say, hey. You know, could you have him look up some historical background or whatever? I didn't know how to use the technology because I didn't even have a flip phone then, but I was just, you know, I was just acting like I knew.

Dave [00:24:51]:
No. I just was asking questions that would that I would ask for any technology that's a neutral thing.

Greg [00:24:56]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:24:57]:
So and I think you you talked about using Myspace, or what was the first

Greg [00:25:02]:
So yeah. So so now we're suddenly talking about adapting technology. So, like, when I think about that student who was in middle school in 2,006 and the first high school student, 2,002. So in that window there, like, 2,003, 2,004, 2,005, It was AOL Instant Messenger. Mhmm. So these would be now this this is the young younger end of what are now millennials. These are our 30, 35 year olds now. And they would come home from school, and they would go to their computer, and they would dial up.

Greg [00:25:44]:
Most of them were dialing up.

Dave [00:25:47]:
Mhmm. Okay.

Greg [00:25:49]:
And I would be I would be in my office, and that would be on a night that we had programming. So youth groups tonight or there's, like, senior high bible study, and I would have instant messenger open. And I would know that school got out, and they're gonna start coming home. And I would have my copy and paste messages ready to go, and I would see, like, cool guy 5993 is now online, and I'd click copy paste. Like, hey. Don't forget tonight's youth group. I'm really looking forward to seeing you. Hope you bring a friend.

Dave [00:26:23]:
I care about you really by copy and pasting.

Greg [00:26:26]:
And they thought that that was the most exciting thing in the world Right. That they got a message from me, and they would respond. And I would like and then I would just type, like, a little personal message back.

Dave [00:26:37]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:26:38]:
And, and it was, like, a really good tool to connect with them and and get a personal invitation and to show that you cared and to remind them, and they really responded to that, and they loved it. Now 20 years later, they all have a smartphone, an an iPhone or Android, whatever. They want it so that they can have instant access to everything, but they view everything trying to get a hold of them as an intrusion and an interruption. Like, they really get annoyed by emails. For the most part, they're not in a hurry to look at their text messages. Like, it it's an it's an interruption to them. They wanna be able to pick it up and do what they wanna do, see what they wanna see, but they don't want everybody to be able to to bother them and to get to try to get their attention. So figuring out how to use technology to communicate in the best, most effective, most efficient way is is like, it's a big change in, you know Yeah.

Greg [00:27:48]:
In that amount of time.

Dave [00:27:49]:
My assumption is every generation has its strength and weaknesses. I know I'm picking on millennials today so far. So I I'm gonna say I haven't figured it out yet, but there's some strengths there. No. Oh my gosh.

Greg [00:28:02]:
Wow. All

Dave [00:28:02]:
you millennials, you know.

Greg [00:28:04]:
And have you ever seen Dave pull out his jitterbug and open it up with those giant numbers

Chad [00:28:08]:
on it

Greg [00:28:08]:
so you can see them?

Dave [00:28:09]:
I don't even know what a jitterbug is. It sounds like it's an old dance. Right? So, anyway, so every generation has its strength and weaknesses. And so what we have to do is say, no. It's there's not. This isn't old guy in the lawn saying, hey. You get off my lawn. It's how and I have to do this with coaching.

Dave [00:28:28]:
I have to say, as a coach, I can't try to talk to these players like they're millennials. I mean, like, excuse me, like they're Gen Xers. Mhmm. I've gotta find what communicates with them, and then I've gotta try to tailor my message in terms of how I say it in a way without compromising the message, but I've gotta find what's neutral or strong about that, minimize their weaknesses, and maximize their strengths. And I do think that that's one of the challenges for, shall we say, older or Gen x or late Gen x like myself pastors who have to figure out how to speak to the culture. And I think I think there's a real a lot of churches, particularly evangelical churches today who are trying to reach the gen xers. Right? They're still trying to reach the gen xers, but if we're gonna reach the young families, you're not. You're talking millennials now.

Dave [00:29:23]:
Yeah. Right?

Greg [00:29:25]:
I still think that a lot of churches are trying to reach the boomers. Yeah.

Dave [00:29:29]:
That's right.

Greg [00:29:30]:
But I really still think that a lot of the the church model, the attractional church model that was invented essentially in the eighties to draw the attention to win over the that generation.

Dave [00:29:46]:
Like that was boomers or reaching gen x? Because remember, late gen I'm late late gen x. And so to me, that was my generation they were reaching. So so let me give you an example, the music. Like, I came out of when I See, you're

Greg [00:30:00]:
right on that cusp. You're right on the

Dave [00:30:02]:
edge there. On the cusp. Stop. So so my my recollection of how my life has unfolded is that I was really enamored for a while with the kind of the new church growth y stuff because they were the first ones that that were open to having music that wasn't just traditional hymns. You know, you can do the choruses when you're in youth group, but in church, you had to do the hymns. And we and to take it further, you were evil if you didn't use hymns or if you used like, a mic microphone or background. You had drums, you know, and the bongos in the background was really edgy.

Greg [00:30:40]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:30:41]:
Right? And so you had to slowly move in towards now right? So my my take on that is that they were really reaching my generation. And I think as my generation is aging out, the the boomers who were part of these churches sacrificed their taste in music so that they could reach us. And I'm not so sure that we're still not trying to reach xers or, in your words, young boomers, shall we, or, yeah, young boomers. You know, maybe we're off. Whatever. One of us is not right. But, either way, there's, right, either way, there's there's this generation that's sacrificing

Greg [00:31:19]:
I would say that the the, like, the 50 to 65 year olds That's fair. Is is who I would put it at.

Dave [00:31:25]:
55 to 65 or 50 to 60

Greg [00:31:27]:
50 to 65 year olds. So you're in that? I'm not in that.

Dave [00:31:33]:
Not according to what you said earlier today. By the time this is posted

Greg [00:31:38]:
I'm not in the 50 to 65 year. Well, you know, somebody could be listening to this at any time, and I could be 50 years old by then. But Yeah. I am not 50 years old. Okay. You're just

Dave [00:31:47]:
you're splitting hairs at this point, though.

Greg [00:31:49]:
Yeah. Well, at least I have them to split.

Dave [00:31:50]:
You're not 30. Let's just say. You talk like I'm bald.

Chad [00:31:56]:
That was pretty quick.

Dave [00:31:57]:
I think the youngest guy in the room here is has the least amount of hair. Aren't you the youngest, Jen? Yeah. Yeah.

Greg [00:32:04]:
Wow. You'll change your mind. Now you'll While we're on the subject, Eddy

Chad [00:32:08]:
change your mind while I take my shirt off.

Dave [00:32:13]:
Please don't. Oh, come on. Just got really uncomfortable. Yep.

Greg [00:32:23]:
Did you know that, most bald men still carry a comb? They just can't part with it.

Dave [00:32:29]:
Bam. Dad joke of the night.

Greg [00:32:31]:
Yeah. That's for your dad.

Dave [00:32:33]:
Dad, that one was for you. I hope you enjoyed that one. Honestly, though, my dad didn't couldn't part with his for long at a very young age. You know? With his coop.

Chad [00:32:45]:
I I I do I do whenever whenever I go to the barber, I do I do have the same stylist usually, and I'll I'll be like, you'll tell me when it's a comb over. Right? She's like, yep. I said, okay.

Dave [00:32:59]:
You go to a stylist? I go to a barber.

Chad [00:33:02]:
Yeah. I guess it's a barber. Okay. So it's I don't know.

Dave [00:33:06]:
So she probably wouldn't I go to a place where, like, it's only men, and the men cut your hair, and it's like Oh. A big testosterone fest in there.

Greg [00:33:15]:
Yeah. So so back to the church thing and the the attractional model, and and, I know when we talked about COVID before and this generation, and they they they immediately see through things and they want authenticity. Yep. And when I when we think about what I described with the millennials and how they used to want to be reached out to with technology, but now they see it as an intrusion. I I really think that, that a lot of this younger generation that they don't want gimmicks. They don't want Mhmm. They don't want tricks. Mhmm.

Greg [00:33:54]:
They don't want a pony show. Yep. A dog face pony show, anything like that. They they just No pony

Dave [00:34:02]:
soldier shows. If you're gonna do that, dog faced pony soldier

Greg [00:34:05]:
show. Show. Yeah. Where's here's my ice cream. They don't want any malarkey either. Yeah. They just want they they want authenticity. Yeah.

Greg [00:34:16]:
Yeah. They want relationships and

Chad [00:34:18]:
Yeah. And and looking through, again, beyond the technology to the shared experiences of, Gen z and kind of the millennials into a lesser extent, the Gen Alpha. One would be a lot of them grew up in the post 911 era. They don't remember 911, but they do remember the forever war in Iraq and Afghanistan that resulted from 911. It was fought by a very small, courageous, all volunteer force at arm's length. Very few Gen z people or or millennials know anyone that actually did any of the fighting or experienced any human cost from it. It was all it was all remote drone warfare.

Greg [00:35:04]:
Oh. And I'm I'm gonna have to disagree with you

Dave [00:35:07]:
on that.

Greg [00:35:07]:
Because I like, when I think back to my youth group Mhmm. There were a lot of kids that went, and there were a lot of people that we knew that went to Afghanistan that

Chad [00:35:17]:
Yeah. I mean had served. And I I know folks too, but to to the greater gen z millennial population, that is not the shared experience. It was all out there, something that was just going on. Now a lot of church, you know, more conservative regions and churchgoers do serve in the military. So that's that's more common there. But I I I think that the more common gen z experience is not knowing someone. Okay.

Greg [00:35:48]:
And not giving you that. If you get out of the yeah.

Dave [00:35:50]:
Once you get out of the bible belt kinda

Greg [00:35:52]:
Yeah. Are we in the

Chad [00:35:53]:
bible belt? I guess, technically, we're not. We're we're we're at the edge of

Dave [00:35:58]:
the bible belt. Yeah.

Chad [00:36:00]:
The next shared experience that that hits the radar screen for for Gen z and the older millennials is the 2008 collapse.

Dave [00:36:09]:
Now

Chad [00:36:09]:
I know that we had shovel ready jobs and stimulus packages and all that stuff, so it didn't end up being technically a depression. But job loss, institutional collapse, these were all very common experiences. And the 3rd big shared experience was COVID and watching every institution you know, love, and care about turn itself off and send you home. So the other big thing that that these generations have, these younger people that are approaching leadership age and entering leadership is they don't trust institutions. Now Gen X was legendary. We were legendary for our cynicism and mistrust of authority, but this is next level. Mhmm. I mean, this is absolutely next level, What what they went through and and their experience with with institutions.

Chad [00:37:06]:
Mhmm. And I think that impacts how they relate to a church and church institutions that say, trust us. Right. We we we can help you. Trust us. We'll we'll be here for you. I think a lot of them just look and go, will you be?

Dave [00:37:23]:
Are you Yeah. Saying saying is one thing. Right? Mhmm. So and that kinda goes ties back into that authenticity piece.

Greg [00:37:30]:
Mhmm. And

Dave [00:37:31]:
that's why I think if you're gonna have the I need to kinda finish my story coming coming out of the the worship wars, if you wanna call it that, where initially, I was very enamored with just the freedom to enjoy, like, my style of music with Christian words. But as it became more and more kind of hokey, if you wanna call it that, I lost, right, and less and less biblical. Right? I I lost the the it lost its shine. And now what what at least my kids seem to be looking for is that authenticity and worship that they would much rather if you had if they had their brothers, they would much rather have a very solid theologically, you know, accurate and, hymn or chorus, you know, in be thou my vision or, like, in Christ alone or something like that rather than the latest thing off of off of top 40 Christian music and done in a way that doesn't feel like it's a show. Mhmm. They do not want a rock concert. They wanna participate, and they wanna feel like they're a part of the community singing to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. And I think that's one thing that the evangelical church needs to learn if they're gonna continue to reach younger families as they could older.

Chad [00:38:58]:
No. I I think, I think the main thing that comes through in all that is they probably have a desire for relationship above anything else. Right? Mhmm. Because that is one thing, you know, knowing you can trust a person. First of all, establishing that trust is huge. Second of all, knowing that it's that, you know, after you establish that you're trustworthy that you follow through, that's another thing. Right? Right. And I think that that is what's, becoming the problem of the formula from the eighties nineties is it did fuel phenomenal church growth and amazing numbers.

Dave [00:39:36]:
But it wasn't necessarily biblically done church.

Chad [00:39:39]:
Yeah. I don't think it was. No.

Dave [00:39:40]:
It was the it was literally marketing knowledge applied to church.

Chad [00:39:46]:
Yeah. And it it's clear now that it did not have staying power, and it didn't have depth because there are some pretty big names from that time and a lot of people from that came, you know, into the faith in that time that, you know, they've fallen away because of an overall lack of accountability, because of a lack of relationship, because of a lack of Discipleship. Discipleship. All of it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that reaching Gen z and millennials, their expectations are gonna be very different for worship, for leadership, for for what church means even beyond that. So

Dave [00:40:28]:
Which is kind of ironic because if you think about Gen X Church or late boomer Gen X Church, which was a kind of a reaction to the stodgy one style of music only that turned into like, it was kind of anti establishment, which turned into this huge establishment. Mhmm. Right? I mean, just, you know, think of, like, Driscoll. Right? Brother Driscoll who went to start the non church church in Seattle ends up having the one of the largest megachurches in the states, and it becomes so institutional that it becomes corrupt. Yeah. Right? And then well, then now that was actually anti biblical. Like, it was Yeah. It was where was the discipleship? Where was the older man teaching the younger man, the older woman teaching the younger woman? Let's say it never happened in those contexts, but Yeah.

Dave [00:41:26]:
This actually kinda gives us an opportunity to go back to a biblical description of how the church functions Mhmm. And thinking of the church as a function and a series of relationships in the church and that there's shepherding that goes on that the elder men, you know, teaching the younger men, all the women teaching the younger women.

Greg [00:41:49]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:41:51]:
And finding those, what seems like maybe to megachurch people more traditional church values from their past, but what really does resonate with the with the z's and millennials.

Chad [00:42:07]:
Yeah. And I think it's closer to the biblical model.

Dave [00:42:10]:
In some ways. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think the consumerism that they have, the the kind of, you know, the church should be like my cell phone. I can get what I want out of it when I want it. Mhmm. That can be a little bit problematic in my in my estimation. But that, again, every strength has its weakness.

Dave [00:42:29]:
Right? So if we take every generation with its strengths and weaknesses, at least we can really capitalize on their strength because their strengths are so lined up with the scriptures as to what a church should be like. Yeah. Authentic, real Yeah. Humble, relational makes me kind of like millennials. Yeah. Write that date down. Write that date down.

Greg [00:42:58]:
Dave has come full circle today.

Chad [00:43:00]:
I know. This this is better than when Dave quit being your Grinch on Christmas.

Greg [00:43:03]:
It's like his heart grew. My

Dave [00:43:04]:
heart grew.

Greg [00:43:05]:
Three sizes. Those. Yeah. It was,

Dave [00:43:07]:
like, 12. 7? I think it was 7.

Greg [00:43:09]:
Oh, memory is still off a bit, but Yeah. His heart's growing.

Dave [00:43:15]:
I could just hear the song in the back

Greg [00:43:16]:
of my head. What song is that, Dave? You're a mean one, mister Grinch. Okay. Just checking to see if you knew what song played in that movie.

Dave [00:43:27]:
I'm so discouraged right now. Yeah. I need some encouragement. I know. Well, that that I was not expecting tonight's converse today whenever whenever this is being listened to, this conversation to go this way. Yeah. I this was

Greg [00:43:42]:
pleasant. Okay. So we talked about this. I'll so so now what does it look like in the church? Like, how does how does this play out? Because I think what we have a tendency of is the the boomers have been running the church. Gen x has taken over mostly and is running the church. What what does this looks like for the next generation? Because I don't I don't think that that's how it should be. I think that, like, believers should come in, and they should be involved, and they should be allowed to serve and to grow as they're gifted even when they're not doing it perfectly. And you come alongside of them, and you walk with them in doing that.

Greg [00:44:25]:
And they and and I think that we have a tendency to hold people back and say, no. Not yet. You're not old enough yet. You're not ready yet. And I'm not I'm not trying at all to advocate laying hands on people too early. But, Good.

Dave [00:44:39]:
Because that's what I was wondering.

Greg [00:44:40]:
Yeah. No. I'm not I'm not I'm not advocating that at all. But what I'm saying is is being deliberate about coming alongside younger people and, like, actually really discipling them Yeah. More than just come and sit in this class, and you will grow. Yeah. I think hold on. I had a thought.

Greg [00:45:04]:
Oh, no. No. It's happening to YouTube.

Dave [00:45:06]:
Wait a second. Wait a minute. Aren't you the youngest guy in the room? What? What's that? Aren't you the the youngest guy in the clearly the worst hearing in the room.

Greg [00:45:15]:
Today's episode of Catfish is brought to you by by Blue Emu.

Chad [00:45:22]:
Who's Johnny Bench? Gosh.

Dave [00:45:25]:
Yeah. So that's interesting because I do I do agree with you, Greg, and we can once you remember. I got it. Okay. We'll go to you and then

Chad [00:45:33]:
No. I I think I think what this looks like going forward, ultimately, is very similar to a conversation that my wife and I had as the whole country turned itself off over the course of a week for COVID. Right? My wife yeah. It it went quick.

Dave [00:45:52]:
Oh oh, so you're happening in a week. I was like, not just for a week though. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. For 9 months.

Greg [00:45:57]:
It was no. It was just 3 weeks we were supposed to, like, pause.

Chad [00:46:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. 2 weeks to flatten the curve, boys. Here we go. Okay. No. But it took about a week from, you know, the first the first big shutdowns to everything being ghost down. I remember my wife asked me what our business is gonna do.

Chad [00:46:17]:
And I said, if you don't have your poop in a group, you ain't gonna make it. If you were borrowing and had had massive revolving credit lines to make payroll, you're gonna be done very quickly, and I think that's how the churches are gonna be. Because if you're completely reliant on this seeker sensitive model, to just draw people in and run them through the machine, you ain't gonna make it when this new generation comes up because that isn't what they want, and they're not gonna have it.

Dave [00:46:55]:
Yeah. I I I I think you probably made a really good point, but I'm still trying to remember what you said about poop in a scoop. Poop in a group. Poop in

Greg [00:47:04]:
a group. Okay? Have your stuff together.

Dave [00:47:07]:
Okay. Okay. Alright.

Chad [00:47:09]:
Have your house in order.

Dave [00:47:10]:
House in order. Okay. My that was just such an odd metaphor there. I was like, okay. So but I do I actually do agree with your point.

Greg [00:47:19]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:47:19]:
That that and churches have. Right? I mean, I've talked to numerous people who are like, oh, what church do you go to? Oh, well, I don't really go anymore. You know? After COVID, I was just like, oh, I guess I don't really need this. Insert Paul Washer here, Greg. Possibly, we could. Probably not truly Christians. Sorry.

Greg [00:47:44]:
I wasn't I wasn't ready

Dave [00:47:46]:
with a Paul washer note for you. It's okay. I forget. But, no,

Chad [00:47:50]:
the the the point is that as as, you know, the the current 2 generations that are basically running churches age out and move on, Churches had better be ready with a relational ministry, that they'd better know how to disciple. They'd better know how to mentor because

Dave [00:48:07]:
Show hospitality.

Chad [00:48:08]:
Show hospitality. Yes. Personal ministry is gonna be ballgame going into this because I stand by. I don't think the up and coming generations have any trust of institutional anything right now. And ironically, I think

Dave [00:48:28]:
not speaking to hard issues and, like, not fudging, but, like, hemming and hawing if something like an LGBTQ issue comes up Mhmm. Will not resonate. I think they would rather have somebody to be forthright and speak what they believe is truth about the topic. Mhmm. That's gonna turn off a lot of people, but I think it's gonna actually believers are going to resonate with that. And I I I think the wishy washy churches are the ones that are gonna lose out. Yep. The ones that are too afraid to speak forthright.

Greg [00:49:02]:
And I stand by that because I think on so many issues that people are looking for answers, and they are going to they're gonna test the waters on a lot of things, and they're gonna try all the different flavors. And there are people who are eventually going to come around to the truth. And when they do, they're gonna look at the people who stood by the truth the whole time and say, those are the people I wanna be with because they were saying the right thing the whole time. The people who weren't saying the right thing the whole time, they're not gonna look, favorably on those people. And, on whatever issue it is that that you're not willing to take to to speak clearly on. And and right now, I think the biggest issue facing the church that we need to speak clearly on is gender sexuality. On that, and marriage. Mhmm.

Greg [00:50:00]:
If you are not crystal clear on that, when this confusion starts to become clear to people in 5 years, 10 years down the road Mhmm. When all of this medical mayhem starts to get sorted out and people realize what a mistake it's been, they're gonna look at churches, quote, churches that that were on the wrong side, and they're gonna want nothing to do with them. But the churches that stood on the right side and stood for truth, are the ones that are gonna be rewarded in the end. I would agree. Yeah.

Dave [00:50:34]:
And I think God will do that rewarding too with that. Yeah. So I think another kind of applicational issue is, you know, I think of this as an elder. You know, the elders

Greg [00:50:46]:
need Much elder than me.

Dave [00:50:48]:
Elder as in not old, but elder as in church leadership elder. As an elder or as elders, we need to not, like you said, don't lay on hands and people too quickly. Actually, as we're discipling, learn the culture from the younger guys. And so I I've generally, you know, met with 1 or 2 people that are, you know, younger men for the last 15 years or so, and I think I've learned a lot from them in ways that maybe they would never even know they taught me, and that's been a really helpful thing. So discipleship is a mutual friendship where, yes, there is an older one who's who's got more experience and more knowledge of the scriptures, hopefully, but there's also a kind of a mutual learning that happens. And I think, you know, it does help for me that I do hang out around a lot of college students because of my job, and so that helps me keep up with the culture a little bit. But, yeah, anyway. So I I do think if we're talking about how do we transition leadership from early boomers to late from early boomers and late gen xers to to young gen xers to c's and millennials.

Dave [00:52:03]:
You know, you're gonna have you're gonna have that transition that needs to take place, and it's gonna have to be a a it's either gonna be breakaway church plants like was really popular during the gen x, you know, era, or it's gonna be slow, deliberate transition that's thoughtful and and biblical. Yeah. And that's what we need to go for. So, you know, going back to that discipleship, mentoring, shepherding, developing young, finding young men who are ready to lead in the future and bringing them along, the way Paul commanded us to do it. So

Chad [00:52:44]:
tune in next time.

Dave [00:52:47]:
We hit that topic hard.

Chad [00:53:05]:
Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee dot com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.