Challenges for the Church in 2024 and Beyond Pt.3 (Timeless)

We conclude our series on biggest challenges are for the church in 2024 and beyond.  In this episode we discuss shifting economic conditions and challenges in reaching the 'deconstructed' and 'de-churched'.

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

Speaker A [00:00:01]:
Well, I I I guess I changed my mind. I'd said last time I said that if if anything, it's gonna be these references to being old that are gonna drive me away from the podcast. It's it's now gonna be Chad's insults. They'll drive me away from the podcast. Oh, no. No. Told you I'm the I'm happy to be the whipping boy.

Speaker B [00:00:25]:
Oh, man. I

Speaker C [00:00:27]:
was, no,

Speaker A [00:00:28]:
I was excited about this one because it got to show off Greg's age for once. Yeah. Yeah. Not a young man anymore.

Speaker B [00:00:35]:
And as far as the insults go, I swear, baby, I can change. Come back.

Speaker A [00:00:38]:
I swear, baby, I Alright. So

Speaker C [00:01:08]:
Did you just Greg. You just snorted. Did you hear him snarl to open that up?

Speaker A [00:01:13]:
I'm very excited about this.

Speaker C [00:01:14]:
He snarls and snorted.

Speaker A [00:01:15]:
A question for you, Greg.

Speaker C [00:01:16]:
You can you this question.

Speaker A [00:01:18]:
Have you checked your Alexa shopping list lately? Did you find anything interesting on there?

Speaker C [00:01:24]:
Let me look. This is I don't have a a Apple Vision Pro, so I'm

Speaker A [00:01:31]:
You mean you need to put a pair of glasses on to see the

Speaker B [00:01:34]:
I can see just fine, mister

Speaker A [00:01:36]:
fore eyes. Oh, snap. Just make sure I brought my glasses today with me. I do have them.

Speaker C [00:01:41]:
Opening my shopping list. Did you find did

Speaker A [00:01:45]:
you find anything interesting on there?

Speaker C [00:01:46]:
Mouthwash, soap for my daughter, toilet paper, and contact solution

Speaker A [00:01:53]:
for my son. No. Got 4 items on there. Yeah. You erased it. Oh. You erased it already. Because last time I was at your house, for your birthday party, we gotta talk about that too.

Speaker A [00:02:05]:
Somebody turned 50. So anyway but, do you remember finding do you remember finding? I know we're gonna be able to figure out who you are in the universe because of that.

Speaker C [00:02:14]:
No. It's not.

Speaker B [00:02:15]:
How many 50 year olds

Speaker C [00:02:16]:
can there be? Milk turns. Okay.

Speaker A [00:02:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You turned 50 turns.

Speaker C [00:02:23]:
I didn't turn.

Speaker A [00:02:24]:
So you didn't find a kayak in a, wheelchair. Was Was it a wheelchair? I think I put I can't

Speaker B [00:02:30]:
remember what I put

Speaker A [00:02:30]:
out there. Yeah. I was pretty sure it was a wheelchair on

Speaker C [00:02:32]:
the list. Does anybody see the irony here? Yes. He can't remember Yeah. What he did

Speaker A [00:02:38]:
It's a great setup

Speaker C [00:02:39]:
on there. 6 days ago.

Speaker A [00:02:40]:
Good setup for you. Yeah. So, no, I put a kayak on there. I know you saw I know you saw this through tonight, and then I also put a wheelchair for your 50th birthday on there.

Speaker C [00:02:48]:
What he

Speaker B [00:02:49]:
did 6 days ago. Are you sure that was Greg's shopping list?

Speaker C [00:02:52]:
Yes.

Speaker B [00:02:52]:
It was. I'd like you to pull your phone out and check

Speaker A [00:02:54]:
your own. Yeah. I don't I don't do Alexa.

Speaker C [00:02:56]:
You were on someone else's house.

Speaker A [00:02:58]:
Right? That's right. No. It wasn't. I want while I was wandering around

Speaker C [00:03:03]:
You're some random person

Speaker A [00:03:04]:
at midnight. Because it moved. Over to Greg's house. That's right. Got in the kitchen said, Alexa, put kayak on the shopping list. And then I also said put a wheelchair. Did I just summon Alexa through your phone?

Speaker B [00:03:18]:
I think he did. I think he did.

Speaker A [00:03:20]:
Oh, man. Greg, that scares me for you, man. Oh, yeah.

Speaker C [00:03:23]:
There there is now a kayak on my shopping list.

Speaker A [00:03:26]:
Hey. That's the 2nd kayak you've had on there in the Damn. Last 2 weeks.

Speaker C [00:03:30]:
Wait a minute. Alexa, Dave's here. I don't know if she's

Speaker A [00:03:34]:
gonna do it. Are we allowed to play that?

Speaker B [00:03:38]:
Unlike It's educational. It is educational. Yes. This is educational.

Speaker A [00:03:43]:
Just to educate you

Speaker B [00:03:44]:
on how racist Greg is.

Speaker A [00:03:48]:
Oh, yeah. So, Greg, tell us what it's like to to to turn 50 and turn

Speaker B [00:03:55]:
over the hill. We're not turning.

Speaker C [00:03:58]:
I what are we you've reached ripen, blossom.

Speaker A [00:04:04]:
This is from the guy that said he didn't last time, if I remember correctly, he said he didn't feel like he was he said he felt 30, and I and I said, no. You don't. You don't feel 30. I I think You just don't remember what it's like to do. I leveled up. You leveled up.

Speaker B [00:04:20]:
Levelled up to 50.

Speaker A [00:04:21]:
I leveled up. Yeah. Yep. Well, what what were some of the gifts you received for for your 50th birthday, Greg? I think you got a basket full of over the hill stuff, didn't you?

Speaker C [00:04:32]:
Yeah. I think they all came from, like, from your bathroom medicine cabinet. Oh, man.

Speaker A [00:04:39]:
I think wasn't there some some some, vitamins? Some special vitamins? I think there was, like, some OP 50 vitamins.

Speaker C [00:04:48]:
I've never taken vitamins before.

Speaker A [00:04:50]:
Shows. This

Speaker B [00:04:51]:
oh, come on, dude.

Speaker A [00:04:56]:
What else was in there? There was some good stuff in there.

Speaker B [00:05:01]:
What was in there, Dave? Do you remember?

Speaker A [00:05:03]:
Oh, yeah.

Speaker B [00:05:04]:
So tell us.

Speaker A [00:05:05]:
Well, I think somebody in this one of the 3 of us gave renewed I I called it restocking my supply of glasses. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:05:14]:
Yeah. There were there were, glasses that I'll get to carry around in my car For over

Speaker A [00:05:18]:
a while. End up

Speaker C [00:05:19]:
in places where Dave doesn't have glasses.

Speaker A [00:05:22]:
So So I do have to tell the story. This is the first experience for me with with reference to this podcast. So I'm at Bible study before Greg shows up. Okay. So for those of you listening, Greg and I, and sometimes Chad, are involved in a Tuesday morning Bible study, and, it's at one of the major, fast food restaurants that I don't particularly care for. But, anyway, so we're I'm there, and I forgot my glasses, which is a shock. Anybody who knows this podcast knows I never forget my glasses. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:05:56]:
So I show up. Now Greg's not there yet, and I say, oh, no. I forgot my glasses.

Speaker C [00:06:03]:
I can't see without my glasses. I can't

Speaker A [00:06:06]:
read. I can see. I just can't read. So so the funny part was a guy in our Bible study who does he's a pretty faithful listener. Right, Jeff? This is a shout out to Jeff, one of the faithful listeners to our podcast, and he's gonna love it when his name gets mentioned on here. But I said it like, the words were still just had just come out of my mouth. Oh, no. I don't have glasses.

Speaker A [00:06:29]:
And I literally see his head just whip over, like, and his eye made contact with mine. And he's got this twinkle in his eye, and he goes, well, why don't you just borrow him from a pair from Greg? Which nobody in that Bible study would understand that if they didn't know this podcast, and so that was just this weird out of context experience for I think we've got you know, now that we have, like, 25 listeners

Speaker B [00:06:55]:
Yes.

Speaker A [00:06:55]:
We're starting to get comments from people outside this group of 3 here Right. About and and our wives about the podcast, and so that was a pretty that was a pretty cool experience. Right. But that's, you know, all because we have a lot of fun with with my forgetting classes.

Speaker B [00:07:12]:
So keep listening to Catfish Fish Ministries so we can all listen to Dave go insane with power as he grows in fame.

Speaker A [00:07:19]:
Yeah. All 25 of you. Mhmm. Yeah. Yep. Anyway, so Chad gave Greg a a a 3 pack a 3 pack of glasses, and I said, oh, look. You restocked my supply.

Speaker B [00:07:34]:
And I I prefaced glasses. And I prefaced it with, this is kind of a present for you, Greg, but kind of for other people too.

Speaker C [00:07:41]:
To Greg for days.

Speaker A [00:07:42]:
That's right. Kinda like the Bible was written to other people for us. Uh-huh. Yeah. We talked about that. Good callback. Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:07:51]:
Good callback, Greg.

Speaker B [00:07:54]:
You know, you're the one that said it. Right?

Speaker A [00:07:56]:
I know.

Speaker C [00:07:56]:
Okay. I was trying

Speaker A [00:07:57]:
to give him

Speaker C [00:07:58]:
His mind is slipping so

Speaker A [00:08:00]:
serious. I just didn't wanna sound immodest, like, when I was congratulating myself on a good callback.

Speaker B [00:08:04]:
You do realize this is the 4th time you've told this story tonight. Right?

Speaker A [00:08:08]:
Yes. It is. Okay. But we're on the air now. So Oh, that's true. We're being recorded. Good stuff.

Speaker B [00:08:16]:
And this is the best we could get.

Speaker A [00:08:19]:
It's the best man can get. I don't know what that means.

Speaker B [00:08:24]:
I think it's a old Should I say

Speaker C [00:08:27]:
it's Gillette?

Speaker A [00:08:28]:
It's Gillette. It's Gillette. Can go. Yeah. I'm not I'm no longer a fan of Gillette.

Speaker B [00:08:33]:
What's that?

Speaker A [00:08:34]:
You don't remember that woke commercial they made about how men who use their razors ought to give up toxic masculinity?

Speaker B [00:08:42]:
No. I guess so.

Speaker A [00:08:43]:
Yeah. From that point on, I've quit Yeah. I quit being thrilled with Gillette.

Speaker C [00:08:47]:
TV. So yeah.

Speaker A [00:08:48]:
No. They they didn't well, they did a commercial, and it was, like, an online commercial, like, one of those social media type commercials. Right. Oh, and they they it was just so so woke. It wasn't even funny. Cringeworthy, almost. It was yes. Good way of saying it.

Speaker A [00:09:04]:
Very cringeworthy. It was cringeworthy.

Speaker C [00:09:06]:
Well and you you gave up July too when you gave up shaving for Joanna.

Speaker A [00:09:11]:
Well, I I shave I I don't shave my I don't shave I I wear a goatee on on my face. Alright. I should have put some depends in that that gift basket for 50 plus gift basket for Greg. The only thing is I just don't have any around the house because I don't need them yet.

Speaker C [00:09:29]:
You ran out?

Speaker B [00:09:30]:
Interesting that they say. Yet.

Speaker A [00:09:33]:
So, like, next week I'd

Speaker C [00:09:34]:
love to

Speaker A [00:09:34]:
be a 100. It's probably gonna be happening.

Speaker C [00:09:37]:
Yeah. Not much here has been out of hiding, has it?

Speaker A [00:09:40]:
I'm not the one who said defecate. So just saying. This is this is, like, this just hit a new low for catfish. Davis is

Speaker C [00:09:51]:
way too excite yeah.

Speaker A [00:09:53]:
I was really excited about tonight. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:09:54]:
Oh, let's talk about your birthday. Yeah. Watch what I I can do. Oh. Oh, ouch. Wow. You're like the kid in 8th grade is, like, shooting from half guard. Watch this, everyone.

Speaker B [00:10:05]:
Just goes over the basket

Speaker A [00:10:07]:
and into the stands. Wow. That was brutal. Yeah. Well, I I I guess I changed my mind. I'd said last time I said that if if anything, it's gonna be these references to being old that are gonna drive me away from the podcast. Mhmm. It's it's now gonna be Chad's insults.

Speaker A [00:10:24]:
Don't drive me away from the podcast. No. No. Told you I'm the I'm happy to be the whipping boy.

Speaker B [00:10:35]:
Oh, man. I

Speaker C [00:10:37]:
was, no,

Speaker A [00:10:37]:
I was excited about this one because it got to show off Greg's age age for once. Yeah. Yeah. Not a young man anymore. And as

Speaker B [00:10:44]:
far as the insults go, I swear, baby, I can change. Come back.

Speaker A [00:10:48]:
I swear, baby, What was that about?

Speaker C [00:10:51]:
Anytime I'm with you, I'm still a young man.

Speaker A [00:10:54]:
5 years is not that.

Speaker C [00:10:55]:
This this reminds me of another story of playing pickleball with Dave.

Speaker B [00:10:58]:
Oh, yeah.

Speaker A [00:10:59]:
Yeah. This is a

Speaker C [00:10:59]:
great one.

Speaker B [00:11:00]:
Yeah. This is great.

Speaker A [00:11:01]:
I don't know if I don't know if I would be proud of this story though.

Speaker C [00:11:04]:
Well well

Speaker A [00:11:06]:
who's your daddy in this one, Greg?

Speaker C [00:11:09]:
Well, it it's not about the old people at the pickleball courts thought that you were my dad and thought that I was your son because of well, apparently

Speaker A [00:11:19]:
Because the one guy who thought that told everybody that. And It wasn't actually that I look that much older than you. That's the sad part. I don't I don't know how anybody could see the both of us and think we were related because it's certainly not I don't have the coif that you have.

Speaker B [00:11:37]:
No. What's baldness comes from the mom, though. Right? Why not? Bald. And you wouldn't be his mom either.

Speaker A [00:11:47]:
Wait. I thought you were talking he's not bald. What are you what are you calling me bald? I'm so confused right now.

Speaker C [00:11:54]:
We know. So at one point, he he kinda he kinda got a little irritated because everybody did think he was my dad.

Speaker A [00:12:03]:
It's all because a guy named Billy

Speaker C [00:12:04]:
Wentworth, and I was

Speaker A [00:12:04]:
all here, buddy.

Speaker C [00:12:05]:
And he had to set the record straight,

Speaker A [00:12:07]:
and he says Now now that now you're just making up stuff.

Speaker C [00:12:10]:
No. Remember you said he's not really my son. And what did I my son. Do you remember? And what did I say? I said, just because I'm adopted, dad.

Speaker A [00:12:22]:
What was even That's beautiful. Yeah. What was even better is Greg's children started calling me grandpa

Speaker B [00:12:27]:
by text.

Speaker A [00:12:29]:
Oh, grandpa, I need to I need to tell you something. Yeah. That was that was funny. That is hilarious. Yeah. Just because I'm adopted.

Speaker B [00:12:38]:
I do remember that.

Speaker C [00:12:39]:
Yeah. That was great.

Speaker A [00:12:40]:
Yeah. For you. Oh, man.

Speaker B [00:12:43]:
Oh, was that your last

Speaker A [00:12:44]:
But I wasn't very proud. Like, I would not have claimed you as my pickle balls.

Speaker B [00:12:46]:
He wasn't proud

Speaker C [00:12:47]:
of me.

Speaker A [00:12:47]:
No one's wasn't. I would've He wasn't. I carried the bag. Pickled balls.

Speaker C [00:12:51]:
Never enough. I never do get enough. Oh, that's true.

Speaker B [00:12:54]:
That's true. That's true.

Speaker C [00:12:55]:
I've tried and tried and tried. Do. And I can't please you, dad. That's true.

Speaker A [00:13:01]:
So hurtful. So who's your daddy in this in this scenario? Anyway.

Speaker C [00:13:06]:
I'm beginning to think

Speaker B [00:13:07]:
this imaginary fathership and sonhood isn't gonna work

Speaker A [00:13:10]:
out. No. He's gonna what do you what do you call that when you get emancipated?

Speaker B [00:13:15]:
I think you get emancipated

Speaker A [00:13:16]:
at 18 automatically.

Speaker C [00:13:19]:
I'm gonna try to.

Speaker A [00:13:20]:
Yeah. I I just I want you to know that that judgmental voice, my judgmental voice will always be in your ear.

Speaker B [00:13:29]:
Why don't you do it that way?

Speaker A [00:13:31]:
Why don't you do it

Speaker B [00:13:31]:
the right way, son? Topic tonight is part 3 of our exciting series on challenges for the church in 2024 and beyond. So to refresh our listeners memories from the last 2 weeks, we've talked about theological compromise, compromise on, God's word, political divisions, and changing demographics. Tonight, we're gonna be talking or today or this morning, whenever you're listening, we're gonna be talking about, economic issues, including, tithing, inflation, jobs, recession, the current economic environment, and predicted future economic environment. And also, we're going to be talking about Outreach to de churched and deconstructed Christians in a little bit more depth than we have in the past. When it comes to economic issues, couple things. 1, just about every church that I've been to, as an attender or observer or anything else, there's a tendency to not hit the mark on tithe teaching teaching what a tithe is. Either it's, woah, we don't wanna seem like we're asking for money. Or Mhmm.

Speaker B [00:14:40]:
It's way far the other side. And there's a chart out front with if your income is x, your size needs to be y, and they will ask aggressively. Okay.

Speaker A [00:14:50]:
So are you a New Testament tithing guy, or are you a are you a New Testament giving guy?

Speaker B [00:14:56]:
Good question.

Speaker A [00:14:57]:
We that's interesting. We've never had this conversation.

Speaker B [00:14:59]:
We have not, and I guess we

Speaker A [00:15:01]:
just assumed privately.

Speaker B [00:15:02]:
Why don't you tell me

Speaker A [00:15:04]:
which which which I'm assuming I'm assuming Greg is a New Testament giving guy, but maybe I'm Oh, I'm

Speaker C [00:15:11]:
a New Testament giving guy. Okay.

Speaker A [00:15:13]:
Is that a tithe, though?

Speaker C [00:15:15]:
Yeah.

Speaker A [00:15:18]:
You just took the mediated position.

Speaker C [00:15:20]:
No. I'm a new testament giving guide, and and I think a good place to start is around there, but, you know, it's it's grace it's grace giving. And the more the more that God's blessed you with, I think, the more you you should give, and I don't think you should twist it and into the more you give, the more you get. I I think that a lot of people I think that there are some people who tend to twist it that way.

Speaker A [00:15:49]:
The New Testament giving? What? Pressed down, rolled over, shaken, not stirred.

Speaker C [00:15:57]:
The the whole

Speaker A [00:15:58]:
It's a reference to a passage.

Speaker C [00:15:59]:
You know? He he who sows bountifully will reap bountifully. So so give give give give give, and god will

Speaker A [00:16:06]:
need more. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:16:08]:
Yeah. No. I don't think that that's I don't think that that's what what the

Speaker A [00:16:14]:
So why no tithe?

Speaker C [00:16:15]:
Teaching. Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:16:16]:
So why no tithes? Got my arms crossed, and I've got the

Speaker B [00:16:21]:
text mode. He's ready

Speaker C [00:16:22]:
to fight.

Speaker A [00:16:22]:
Yeah. Why not? So I'm with you on the New Testament.

Speaker C [00:16:25]:
You know, the the tithe, so what part of the what part of the old testament law and the tithe are you gonna talk about? Because there's the tithe, there's the 10%, but then there's all the other offerings. And if you really add up all of the offerings that are going on, there have been some calculations that put it at, like, 20 23, 27%. I've I've heard as high as 33, but

Speaker A [00:16:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. So You tithed faithfully and everything.

Speaker C [00:16:52]:
Yeah. So because it was it was the first fruits, then there was the tithe, and there was all of the different offerings when you calculate what it would be. It's way more than 10%.

Speaker A [00:17:05]:
And it's for me, what's most important is that the command to tithe, even though there are examples of tithes before the law, but the law is the vehicle that commanded tithing from all Mhmm. All of the children of Israel. And if the old covenant is still enforced, then we should go full blown, or or it's not enforced. It's been replaced by the new covenant, not reaffirmed by the new covenant. So I'm a new covenant guy, so it's believed that the new covenant replaces the old covenant. There are no tithing commands associated with it, and whatever all the New Testament talks about is every man must give his his his God laid on his heart, basically. So so that's that's the, you know, then the other position is typically the the tithing position, which is people just simplify it 10%, And most people think that's what an Old Testament tithe was was the 10%, and that's what we're commanded to do. And, yeah.

Speaker A [00:18:20]:
So those are the 2 the 2 basic theological positions. I think for me, biblically speaking, I'm a new testament giving guy, but I think it's a manifestation of your heart. And so even if it was a 10%, if you just grudgingly give 10%, it's not worth the paper. It was printed on as it were, spiritually speaking. Yeah. And there is a sense in which you are laying up treasures in heaven for yourself, but I I don't think that's your motive. Your motive is to, like, if I never get a cent of the money back in any way that I can tangibly, I think I should be willing to help support the local church ministry that God's placed me with and, you know, serve the people around me and want to see what what money God's provided to me, given back as an expression of gratitude towards and and an expression of dependence on God. So Okay.

Speaker A [00:19:31]:
That's where I'm at.

Speaker B [00:19:33]:
So I guess all things considered, I am a New Testament giving guy

Speaker A [00:19:36]:
Okay.

Speaker B [00:19:37]:
Who just uses the word tithe.

Speaker A [00:19:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's where a lot of people are or and I to be honest, I I do think, though, however, that your main point at the beginning was, like, either they teach it too little or they teach it too much. There doesn't seem to be this interesting balance. Right. So I've been at a lot of a number of churches where, like, giving is barely focused upon

Speaker C [00:20:01]:
or Yeah.

Speaker A [00:20:03]:
Where you had a I was at 1 church where there was you didn't even talk about your giving during the service because there was a box in the back, and they rarely even mentioned it.

Speaker B [00:20:12]:
Yeah. Everybody just knows.

Speaker A [00:20:14]:
Yeah. Because you're part of the church, and it's it's not for and then you don't have to do that awkward disclaimer. Mhmm. We're doing an offering, and if you're not a member here, don't feel obligated to give. But if you wanna throw $3 in there, God's grace is covering more sin. No. No. No.

Speaker A [00:20:29]:
You but you don't have to do that disclaimer

Speaker C [00:20:31]:
Yeah.

Speaker A [00:20:31]:
Yeah. That I think is appropriate in today's day and age. Yeah. So to be honest, so the best message I've ever heard on giving could be summarized something like this. God doesn't need your money, but you need to give because it'll it's it's an expression of your heart. It's just a great way to communicate about it. Yeah. And, ironically, when you catch people's hearts Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:20:56]:
And when they're they want to serve the Lord, they're gonna give more. Yeah. So I would think God can provide.

Speaker B [00:21:04]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I've often said that, giving is a barometer of someone's heart. It's like a it's like the canary in the coal mine. Yeah. So yeah. And

Speaker C [00:21:16]:
for many people, giving is is they look at their income and their expenses, and then at the end of the month, what is left over that they can give, and they just find themselves with not much left over to give. And, rather than starting at the beginning and just saying I'm going to give this and determining the way scripture says Mhmm. Each man should give as he is determined in his heart to give. Mhmm. For god loves a cheerful giver and determining that that's what they're going to give and then and then ordering their lives around that. Well, I'm not going to be able to do this because I've determined that this is what I'm going to give. Right. Rather than just giving haphazardly out of what's left over.

Speaker C [00:22:04]:
Yeah. And it really it really struck it becomes it becomes a spiritual discipline.

Speaker B [00:22:09]:
Yep. It does.

Speaker A [00:22:09]:
I do agree with that statement. It's a spiritual discipline. Now, New Testament giving kind of solves this problem of is it, quote, okay to give and count quote, count your giving outside of the church as giving to God? Because you you get if you're a tithe person, right, or if you're preaching tithe, I've actually I mean, I've actually heard it really emphasized. Now we're gonna do a special offering this week for missions, but this is over and above your tithe. And it's like you get the notion. Look. Give your tithe, but then be generous with it. But make sure you're generous with the church first, and it comes off pretty shady, to be honest.

Speaker B [00:22:50]:
It's basically that's off the top people. Right.

Speaker A [00:22:56]:
Yeah. So but that to me, that kinda solves that problem in a sense that there are I know a lot of people who who give to missionaries independently from their giving. And I would say it's probably something that you don't wanna do if your church is struggling financially. I would say still give independently, but make sure you're taking care of your local church because you still need to feed your pastor. You need to pay for the lights. Yep.

Speaker C [00:23:20]:
Right. And that's like, my wife and I, we look at it at the beginning of the year or the end of the year, whatever. We set our budget for the year. We look at how we're gonna spend our money for the year. And, of course, during the year, we end up making adjustments, but we determine that this is what we're going to give every month to our church. And we make that decision and we stick to it. And then during the course of the year, there are other things that come up and we decide that we're going to give to this missionary or this cause, and that doesn't mean we take it away from what we determined that we're giving to our church. Mhmm.

Speaker C [00:23:57]:
We do do it above and beyond what we are giving. So, like, if Dave were to announce that he's gonna go on a missions trip to Japan Yeah. You would have to be above and beyond. Right.

Speaker A [00:24:11]:
I would do that just to

Speaker B [00:24:14]:
take your money. Just kidding. That's Wow.

Speaker A [00:24:16]:
Just kidding. I you know, it's really funny that just I do wanna go back eventually, but I just don't have a if I were to go to missions, I probably wanna head that direction. I don't think I have the personality for missions, and Japan. It wasn't missions period. It was missions pause in Japan, but thanks. Thanks, Greg. Appreciate that. That mode of conflict.

Speaker C [00:24:44]:
I kid. I kid.

Speaker B [00:24:45]:
Yeah. His primary love language is verbal abuse.

Speaker A [00:24:48]:
Verbal abuse. Verbal abuse. Well, I must be the most loved person on this podcast.

Speaker B [00:24:52]:
You are, dude. You are. Ain't

Speaker A [00:24:57]:
that right, son? So good. Yeah. I just can't believe anybody thought we're that much

Speaker C [00:25:05]:
say it now, but he would acknowledge me before then.

Speaker A [00:25:07]:
Yeah. It's true. It's true.

Speaker B [00:25:09]:
Did you at any time hear a crow a rooster crow 3 times?

Speaker A [00:25:13]:
Oh, wow. That was just a oh, yeah.

Speaker C [00:25:16]:
No. Like when he pulled that hamstring.

Speaker A [00:25:24]:
Just I just you need to set the record straight on that one. I've never pulled my hamstring in front of you. In front

Speaker B [00:25:30]:
of you?

Speaker C [00:25:30]:
In front of me.

Speaker A [00:25:31]:
Yeah. No. Actually, I've never actually pulled a hamstring. Mhmm.

Speaker C [00:25:35]:
You sure?

Speaker A [00:25:36]:
Yeah. I've turned an ankle. The one time I turned my ankle, I fainted. It's a true story.

Speaker B [00:25:41]:
Really?

Speaker A [00:25:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know what? And I was I was couldn't walk on it for 2 days, and after that, it was perfect. They say that the the the worse the injury is, the less it hurts at first. So when it when it's a bad ankle injury, it generally tends to hurt less than if it's a, like, sprain, I mean, but so I had a really bad sprain, and I the funny part was 1st year of teaching Christian school, went up for a rebound when I was playing pickup basketball, came down, and the next the next thing I remember was, like, feeling like I was waking up, having coach, coach, wake up, coach. And I took a lot a lot of teasing for that one.

Speaker C [00:26:25]:
Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:26:26]:
Thankfully, I moved away the next year, so I didn't have to live with it for the rest of my life. Like, I will now for having told that story. So, yeah, giving. Yeah. Giving. So we

Speaker B [00:26:37]:
got here somehow.

Speaker C [00:26:37]:
Yeah. We're no. We were talking about challenges for the year. And and so is giving going to be the challenge? Because giving's only one part of the financial picture of the church. Obedience to God's word, giving, it's, you know, it's always an issue for churches, but I I think that costs are are going to be an issue for for churches and ministry, and being able to control costs in in ways that they that they have been able to control before are not going to be able to control.

Speaker A [00:27:07]:
Put some meat on those both. What do you mean?

Speaker C [00:27:09]:
Because of inflation. Like, you you churches and ministries have always had have always had fixed costs. Like, there's your overhead. There's your utilities. There's the, you know, copy paper. Things like that have been fixed. It's pretty predictable that they're gonna go up a certain percentage every year, but that has not been predictable the last couple years.

Speaker B [00:27:33]:
Yeah. 2, 3 years. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:27:34]:
And it's it's becoming a a strain on church budgets

Speaker B [00:27:38]:
Mhmm.

Speaker C [00:27:38]:
Especially large churches. Because a small church, if their budget's like a 100, 200,000 and 20% of their budget is overhead or 30%, and that goes up 3% instead of 2%, you know, but when you're talking about a $1,000,000 budget or a $2,000,000 budget and that goes up, then that becomes a bigger deal. Mhmm. It does. Especially with insurance costs going up, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Everything.

Speaker A [00:28:05]:
So here's I don't know. It's not a frustration, but it's just something that kinda sticks in my brain sometimes. Like, okay. So why is it that just because our culture has money that the church thinks that in order to function properly, it has to have a $1,000,000, $2,000,000 budget. In other words, we built church around having money.

Speaker B [00:28:30]:
Some places have done this. Yes.

Speaker A [00:28:34]:
Or, like okay. So could we do church? The answer is yes, of course, but I I don't think a lot of churches would think they could anymore.

Speaker B [00:28:43]:
Yeah.

Speaker A [00:28:43]:
But could you do church without a $1,000,000 budget? Right. And still have a 1,000 people in your church?

Speaker C [00:28:50]:
Well, I think your question is, are there $1,000,000 churches who are being faithful to God's word and being faithful to the mission? Yes, I think there are many that are being faithful.

Speaker A [00:29:02]:
Yeah. But that's not what I that's not really what I'm saying. I'm saying even those, have they have they built ministry in such a way that they have to have $1,000,000 when, like, theoretically, we should be able to do church without any money but supporting your pastor? Theoretically, should be able to. Right?

Speaker C [00:29:18]:
Well, if you're gonna have house churches, is is that what you're getting at?

Speaker A [00:29:21]:
Well, no. I'm I'm not particularly, but it seems like we're putting a lot of emphasis on, well, you can't do ministry if you don't send people on mission trips, and you can't do ministry unless you take the kids to Christian camp, and you can't do ministry if you don't have the concert venue for a church. And you can't do, like, okay. Maybe we do a pole barn. Right? Maybe you rent some like, I just I I just think at some level, and I don't think the house church is the opposite the opposite of it. But I think at some level, we've built so many expenses into church that if a depression hit, like a real serious depression hit, or to be silly, if the EMP pulse goes off. Right. And suddenly you don't have electronics.

Speaker A [00:30:17]:
I don't know if people would know how to do church.

Speaker B [00:30:19]:
Yeah. I I think I think there's there's something there to it, But what you find at a lot of these bigger churches is that they have gone ahead and taken certain aspects of the Christian life that should be getting done by the body universal. Mhmm. And they're getting done by staff.

Speaker A [00:30:41]:
Professional staff.

Speaker B [00:30:41]:
Yep. That precipice has to be stepped back from. And we kinda touched that on that in our episodes on pastoral stress Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:30:49]:
And

Speaker B [00:30:49]:
the lack of mentoring and the lack of leadership in the in the local church when it comes to bringing up the next generation of leaders and and people that are able to interpret scripture and read the bible for themselves. Right. But we probably should revisit that here. I think because you can talk, you know, Hazers lights sound subwoofers, all that stuff. All that stuff does cost some money, but not as much staff. Mhmm. So staff's always the biggest expense of any church usually.

Speaker A [00:31:24]:
Unless you have a building.

Speaker B [00:31:25]:
Unless you have a big Behemoth for a building. Yeah. Which I I remember going to arts conference at a large Midwest church, and they were talking about how they outfitted all their cameras with $200,000 camera lenses to get a better image. I'm just like, oh my goodness. That's insane.

Speaker A [00:31:45]:
That, yeah, that that just triggered me

Speaker B [00:31:47]:
to be honest. I'll bet it did. So there are churches where

Speaker A [00:31:51]:
that word, by the way.

Speaker B [00:31:52]:
Hate the word triggered. Yeah. Well, it's a very triggering word. But there are churches where the infrastructure, the stuff does outweigh the staff, and you can reach that point. But in a lot of in a lot of cases, we're paying people to do things that should be being learned by the congregation and done by Believers for each other. And that is rewarding on a level that a lot of modern American believers who go to large churches. They have staff that do this. Those people never get to experience that ministry.

Speaker B [00:32:23]:
They never get to experience the the feeling of giving to the fellow person in a in a true deep relationship because, oh, that's Joe's job on Sunday mornings or that's, better call Carl. He'll come take

Speaker A [00:32:37]:
care of that. Equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.

Speaker C [00:32:40]:
That's right. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:32:41]:
Yeah. I I don't know. I'm sorry I took us off course there, but I I I do think that is a legitimate consideration for churches as they move forward in, you know, 2024 beyond is maybe just kinda go, hey. Let's reevaluate and see if we're not just focused on spending money, and why don't we get back to, okay. If we had no money, could we do ministry? That'd be a great thought experiment for a for an elder board.

Speaker B [00:33:10]:
That would be an amazing thought experiment. And, also, I mean, it it would probably lead someone to ask the question, well, we've been doing it this way since 1996. Is anything different since 1996? Yeah. Let's put our thinking caps on.

Speaker C [00:33:25]:
Mhmm. Yeah. So when you talk about having paid staff, doing everything and then the congregation not doing things, and and then you start thinking about the next generations taking over because you got millennials and Gen z coming of age, and they should be to stepping into leadership roles in the church. Does leadership roles mean paid leadership roles, or does it mean lay leadership roles? And they should really be equipped for for the lay leadership roles and taking leadership in things. And when you think about them craving authenticity because that is something that they're really craving. If if you're craving authenticity, would you rather walk into a group of people who, are doing things perfectly by paid professionals or who are doing things imperfectly to the best of their ability by a group of people just like themselves. Mhmm. I think it I and and when I say be.

Speaker C [00:34:33]:
And when I say imperfectly, like, obviously, striving to do things right and striving to do things biblical thing and and doing things according to the word of God. But, if they sing off key, if if the if the band isn't hitting the right notes all the time, if, if they're missing the cues on on the media presentation, if there's spelling mistakes in things. But to see people coming coming together and and using their gifts and and not being perfect Mhmm. And and and learning together and growing together and having the, the older saints teaching them and walking alongside them and then cutting them loose for turning them loose to do ministry. It it would be it would be a great thing rather than just the paid professionals doing everything Mhmm. And then hiring the next generation of paid professionals.

Speaker A [00:35:38]:
Right.

Speaker C [00:35:38]:
Absolutely. I think it that's what needs to happen more and more and more. And there's there's going to be overhead costs in doing ministry. There's always going to be overhead costs.

Speaker A [00:35:51]:
Yeah.

Speaker C [00:35:52]:
There's going to be, unless you go to a house search model, there's going to be the gathering place, the building. And in whatever area you're in, there's gonna be different costs. If you're in a major urban area, it's going to be very expensive to have a gathering place. It's it's going to require money to do it. It's just going to. Sure. But I think what you look at is the is the cost. And I hate to break it down this way, but, like, the cost per person of doing ministry.

Speaker C [00:36:19]:
There are some churches that are just stuck in an exorbitant cost per person of doing ministry. And it it becomes outrageous that we're we're spending this much money per for the size of our congregation. Whereas you see other congregations that are able to do so much more with so much less money and and and be effective.

Speaker A [00:36:44]:
Yeah. I do agree that there's, you know, where you live in the culture and the expectation of having some sort of a building to meet at which you could meet. I guess my nagging frustration is just this this seeming assumption that the really good churches have big budgets, and they spend their big budgets. And I think going through, financial crises is actually really healthy. So I've been at 2 different universities or colleges that have worked there where they went through some pretty severe budget scares. To be honest, you come out of the other side of it. You go, you know, this was actually kind of a healthy thing because it made it made them go, oh, this is really what we are, and this is what we need to do our core mission.

Speaker C [00:37:32]:
Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:37:32]:
And you have to go, well, that's you gotta cut the fat or trim the fat as it were, and you go, okay. That's bonus. That's extra. That's stuff we don't need because if you don't do your mission, right, you you gotta figure out what you're what really is important in order to accomplish your mission, and I I don't I'm not so sure this you know, next few years, we won't have churches going through some financial hardships if we go through some, you know, fiscal hardships as a country or as a world even, and that might just be a healthy thing for us to have to go through.

Speaker C [00:38:03]:
I would agree. So then going through those, what what is really, really important, Being faithful to the word of God. Amen. Being faithful to, preaching the word of God, evangelism, equipping the saints, and, and those things are more important than big budgets Mhmm. Big light systems, outreaching

Speaker A [00:38:25]:
that and big drums.

Speaker C [00:38:25]:
But and and, you know, and I don't I don't I don't just wanna pick on what looks like a modern contemporary church.

Speaker A [00:38:32]:
No. No. That's I I just think that

Speaker C [00:38:34]:
too many churches it just seems like there's a playbook for what a successful church is supposed to look like. And if we do these things and if we market in this way and if we have the right social media platforms, you know, if we just if we do a, b, c 123, that we get these results Mhmm. And and they don't prioritize the faithful preaching of God's word. Like, that is number 1. If you faithfully if you if you have men who are committed to faithfully preaching God's word, and people who are are serious about submitting to God's word, then you're gonna see results. Yeah. You're gonna see growth.

Speaker A [00:39:14]:
You don't understand, Greg. Yeah. You don't understand. I think you just

Speaker C [00:39:17]:
Teach me.

Speaker A [00:39:18]:
You're not hip to that square, man.

Speaker C [00:39:20]:
I know.

Speaker A [00:39:20]:
Let's not hip to that job.

Speaker C [00:39:22]:
Let's decon let's deconstruct this, David.

Speaker A [00:39:24]:
No. Well, so this is this is if you really wanna understand how to grow a church, you gotta you gotta get with the trends. You gotta know how to market. Yeah. And and, obviously, that's tongue in cheek. But that's actually what finally, like like, the last straw with me in the church growth moment because I, you know, I was coming out of legalism, and there was something very appealing about the church growth movement with some of these mega churches early on because there was this freedom to not be legalistic, and so that was very appealing at first, and and immediate pretty quickly, some stuff there were some nagging, like, questions that came up. But the thing that finally it was like the last straw that really turned me off to to where they and where they eventually showed themselves to be heading was when you realized that, to me, the Willow Creeks and these other megachurches who eventually had problems because they got too big and lost their sense of outreach, was fundamentally that they're they were the pinnacle of the modern church. They were the pinnacle of how to take marketing and modern principles of mastering the universe through technique and through technology, and that was what modernism applied to the church looked like, and it was just a formula.

Speaker A [00:40:46]:
And if you market it just right and if you soften down your messages, though, you know, that's the kind of thing that finally just was like, okay. I'm done with this. Give me give me and I don't care about the church size. I think you can have some very faithful churches that preach the word of God that are growing. Yeah. They're huge, but they're growing for different reasons Right. Than than the, you know, the hipster the hipster tight jeans. Gotta have the, you know, the coffee shop in the

Speaker B [00:41:14]:
Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:41:15]:
In the atrium. If you don't, you're not cool, and you won't attract the young people that

Speaker B [00:41:18]:
you wanna attract to your church or whatever. So many beards, so

Speaker A [00:41:23]:
much flannel everywhere. So I remember so many stocking caps.

Speaker B [00:41:29]:
I know. I remember in, I think it was about 2,000. I've been a believer for a little bit, and, my church took me to Willow Creek. There was like 9 or 10 of us that went. There was somebody that had gone the previous year and he just would not shut up about it. I mean, he just Willow Creek this and Willow Creek that and we were on our way there. We're actually going there. We go over the hill on, you know, Monday morning or whenever it was when this conference was, and he goes, there it is.

Speaker B [00:42:01]:
And from the back, we hear pastor Scott go, mecca.

Speaker A [00:42:05]:
That's exactly the word I thought of when you said

Speaker B [00:42:07]:
that. Bow

Speaker A [00:42:11]:
bow kneel to me. But yeah.

Speaker C [00:42:14]:
I mean, it it was

Speaker B [00:42:14]:
funny because when he's there it is. It just landed so wrong, and I something in me, I was like, this is a good thing, and we're gonna grow our church, and this is we're gonna reach people for Christ. But something about it just landed wrong, and then I hear pastor Scott say that from the back of, like, oh, yeah.

Speaker A [00:42:30]:
So he had good perspective on that.

Speaker B [00:42:32]:
Oh, yeah. He did.

Speaker C [00:42:33]:
So Yeah. And there there are many large large churches that are doing it right, that are staying faithful Yes. Faithfully preaching the word of God, making it all about the authority of God's word and submitting to God's word. And, and then they use technology, and they use some modern methods. Mhmm. But those are the tools. They're not the vehicle. Right.

Speaker C [00:42:58]:
Right. Love it. So I wanna be I just I just wanna make sure it's so easy to get confused on those things. Like, what's the vehicle? What's the tool? Yeah. And and to get lost in them. And it's so easy to start using a tool and to let that turn into the vehicle. Mhmm. Absolutely.

Speaker C [00:43:16]:
If you're not being careful. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:43:17]:
And I think that's a very good summary of what happened in the late nineties and early 2000 because in retrospect, you should be very leery of a big church that's doing it right, and they try to capture it, package it, bottle it, and sell it, which in the late nineties and early 2000, I feel like that's what really was happening because I was on staff at a church at the time and, like a super volunteer at a church at that time. You couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a consultant that was gonna come right in and fix your wagon back then.

Speaker A [00:43:49]:
Yeah. Don't even get me started on church consultants.

Speaker C [00:43:51]:
Cats, but anyway.

Speaker A [00:43:52]:
Well Just don't even get me started on that.

Speaker B [00:43:54]:
If I told you the denomination we're in, you'd understand, but I'm not gonna say it on

Speaker C [00:43:58]:
the podcast. Okay. True. True.

Speaker B [00:44:02]:
Lot of dead cats. Swinging dead cats.

Speaker A [00:44:04]:
That's a metaphor I've not heard before. Seriously? Swinging dead cats? Yeah. I haven't been around you long enough, apparently.

Speaker B [00:44:11]:
We'll we'll do a deep dive on that

Speaker A [00:44:13]:
one Deep dive. In the

Speaker B [00:44:14]:
in the later episode.

Speaker A [00:44:15]:
Dead cats swinging them. It sounds smelly to me.

Speaker B [00:44:19]:
I just don't know. We didn't actually swing dead cats.

Speaker A [00:44:22]:
It's it's a it's a metaphor.

Speaker B [00:44:23]:
It's a metaphor.

Speaker A [00:44:24]:
It's a metaphor wrapped in an enigma. Yes. Yeah. That's okay. We'll go with that. Yeah. But we've hit we've hit that topic. Don't we have one more thing we're supposed

Speaker B [00:44:34]:
to talk about tonight? We do, and that would be reaching out to the dechurched and the deconstructed.

Speaker C [00:44:42]:
Yeah. When I said, why don't you deconstruct that for us? I was trying to segue, but No. It went right over your head.

Speaker B [00:44:48]:
But, yeah, through the magic of editing That's gone. That segue is gonna be like butter.

Speaker A [00:44:54]:
Okay. Okay. Got Sigu'd over to this final topic Mhmm. Which is tea. So The de churched and the de churched. I just find that phrase laughable.

Speaker C [00:45:05]:
Deconstructing? Yes. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:45:07]:
Because if you say that you're deconstructing Yep. You're basically telegraphing your endpoint before you even start. Right? What do

Speaker C [00:45:18]:
you what do you think people think they mean? Or or Well, I What is it supposed to sound like?

Speaker A [00:45:24]:
Well, I don't mind if you wanna say I wanna reconstruct my faith. Yeah. But it seems like a pessimistic way of saying, I'm like, hey. I'm gonna like, when you deconstruct something, you tear it apart. Yeah. There's nothing in there about rebuilding it.

Speaker C [00:45:39]:
Right.

Speaker A [00:45:40]:
Like, I have no problem if you say, I wanna go through the Bible, and I wanna reconstruct my faith because maybe the tradition that I came from was wrong about something Yeah. That the scriptures teach. But as soon as you say, I'm gonna deconstruct my faith, I'm like, oh, there's 80% of people are never gonna reconstruct what they deconstruct. Right.

Speaker B [00:46:00]:
It'd be like going to a transmission shop where they said, we're gonna deconstruct your transmission.

Speaker A [00:46:05]:
Yes.

Speaker B [00:46:05]:
Would you be happy when they came out of the wheelbarrow full of parts and pieces and said, there it is. It's deconstructed. Why would you pay for that? Why would that be

Speaker C [00:46:13]:
a good end goal? Yeah. It's just a modern term for apostasy.

Speaker A [00:46:16]:
I that It it really is.

Speaker C [00:46:18]:
Use the words right on my mind. It it used to be people, like, brought up in the church. You know, they they walked the walk, talked the talk, and then they'd left to the faith for one reason or the other. Mhmm. And they wander away from the faith, and then they make excuses for why they wandered away for the faith, and they point back to, you know

Speaker A [00:46:39]:
Johnny was inconsistent too.

Speaker C [00:46:41]:
Johnny. Yeah. Pastor, I didn't like this. I didn't like this. I saw hypocrisy, whatever. And, really, it was about their affections weren't in the right place. There was there were things that they loved more, and they left the faith and wandered away their apostate. But now they call it deconstructing.

Speaker C [00:47:01]:
Like, it's it's some more It's the cool way

Speaker A [00:47:04]:
that we saw the church.

Speaker C [00:47:04]:
Yeah. It's the cool way that I'm deconstructing my faith. You know? I saw some things about Christianity that I don't like, and I'm I'm just trying to find a better spirituality for myself. But, really, it's it's, it's a when you say you're deconstructing your faith, you're re rejecting God's word. Mhmm. Because everything should be going back to what does God's word say. Yeah. I don't like the way the preacher treated me, but what does God's word say? Yeah.

Speaker C [00:47:32]:
I don't like, hypocrisy that I saw, but what did God word God's word say? Mhmm. Yeah. I don't like an experience that I had, but what does God's word say? And people who are deconstructing their faith aren't saying, yeah, but what does God's word say? They're saying, what do my feelings dictate? Right.

Speaker A [00:47:51]:
Mhmm.

Speaker C [00:47:52]:
And when they start with, what do my feelings dictate? What's the first command? You shall have no other gods before me. They've set their feelings up as the god Yes. Of their lives. Mhmm. And they're in violation of the first commandment. Mhmm. And they've set a god for themselves that is not the god of the bible. So they're not really deconstructing their faith.

Speaker C [00:48:10]:
They've just become apostate.

Speaker A [00:48:12]:
Well, or they're deconstructing without reconstructing. But, yeah, I agree with you. And I I I do think there are some people who maybe hear that and go, oh, we're all supposed to deconstruct your faith because they don't have any really good influences in their life, their spiritual life. But and some of them may have good intentions with it. But but when when you start off with that goal, there's just no way it seems to me that you're gonna most of the people are not gonna be able to reconstruct it. Right. Yeah. And I I do agree for most of it isn't a it's just a way of it's a cool way to apostasize.

Speaker A [00:48:50]:
Yeah.

Speaker C [00:48:50]:
And and when you start with your feelings

Speaker A [00:48:53]:
Mhmm. Yep.

Speaker C [00:48:53]:
You're going down a bad road. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:48:55]:
Yeah. And I would I would go on one step further and say, you know, nothing can separate us from the love that we have in Christ. Right? Mhmm. If you deconstruct it, did you really have it? Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:49:08]:
Which is another way of saying apostasy, I mean, from a theological perspective.

Speaker B [00:49:12]:
I mean, what what are they really deconstructing? Are they deconstructing actual faith or just the habits that they formed at church around church that looked like Christianity to people around them, but Yeah. Really, they never really understood.

Speaker A [00:49:26]:
Yeah. So many people that I that and some of them have come back and actually turned their life over to Christ. I I have some people in my mind that I don't wanna name, but who who went away because they were disappointed with how God let them down. Right? Because they were like, Paula, my experience in youth group was not cool because I asked God for a girlfriend, and he didn't give me a girlfriend. And I asked God for this, and he disappointed me here. And, you know, the youth group, I wasn't a cool dude, so I never quite made the status in the youth group. And not disparaging how painful that was for them Mhmm. But to use your terms, Greg, that was their idol, and they weren't they weren't seeking after God's righteousness.

Speaker A [00:50:13]:
Right? They were seeking after popularity and girlfriend.

Speaker B [00:50:18]:
Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:50:18]:
And so, therefore, yes, they were disappointed in God because God didn't do what they wanted them to do.

Speaker B [00:50:24]:
Yeah. Which is best is what they thought they needed. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:50:28]:
Right. And I Which is what I wanna do.

Speaker C [00:50:30]:
Myself up a little bit just real quick. When I said when it becomes about your feelings and Sure. I don't wanna minimize something. Like, there are people who are legitimately hurt, deeply, deeply, horribly hurt by Christians or by by those who did actions in the name of the church. And I I don't don't even wanna pick on any churches or denominations, but there have been whole whole churches, denominational movements that have had clergy, sexual abuse, cover ups, and, finding out that children and people have been hurt. They have a right to be upset and to be angry with men who are sinners who did wrong. God did that. God did not do that, and it's hard.

Speaker C [00:51:21]:
It's hard to reconcile those two things. Men did evil things. God did not do that. It's really hard to reconcile that and and to work around that, but you need to go back to God's word, and your feelings may be tremendous, tremendously painful about something that happened. And I don't want to invalidate that, but it is about a God who made you, about a God who loves you, and about a God who who does have a right to to say this is the standard. And, and if you violate God's standard, you, are separated from him. And if you choose to walk away from him, then you are choosing a life apart from God that has serious eternal ramifications. So don't don't use this word deconstructing your faith so flippantly.

Speaker C [00:52:19]:
It should drive you to God's word to search the scriptures, to seek God, to seek what he requires of you, even even in your hurt and your pain, and to find out what the truth of the matter is.

Speaker A [00:52:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. With reconstructing your faith. Yeah. Right? Rather than Dee. Yeah. And I think we all know individuals who have come through great hurt, and yet they reconstructed their faith acknowledging the failures of the even the spiritual leaders around them.

Speaker C [00:53:00]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:53:01]:
And we've all got some horror stories about stuff in ministry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So

Speaker B [00:53:10]:
yep. Making church is like making sausage. Everyone loves the results. Nobody wants to see how it's done.

Speaker C [00:53:21]:
Kinda like swinging cats. I don't know.

Speaker A [00:53:23]:
Swinging cats, making sausage. I don't know what that means. I don't either.

Speaker C [00:53:28]:
That'll get you.

Speaker A [00:53:29]:
Put those 2 together.

Speaker C [00:53:30]:
So the challenge then becomes with with this young generation who I don't even know that it's young generation because it's just catching on and but when they when they start down this path saying they're deconstructing their faith is is how do you how do you correct that and point them to truth and say and and and say, yeah. You're following your feelings. Let's follow the word of God now.

Speaker A [00:53:54]:
Well, I I have actually had a conversation with somebody who said they were gonna deconstruct, and I challenged them and said, why why wouldn't you use a phrase like reconstruct instead of deconstruct? And asked them what the implications were. Mhmm. Your illustration of a transmission was great. I didn't think of it at the time, but but they were able to kind of think, oh, yeah. That kind of assumes, like, destruct deconstruct means that you're gonna destroy with no intention ahead of time in going, okay. What does the Bible really teach about this? Yeah. I think that's one that's one way of of doing it, but I don't know. Is it me, or is that that term kind of falling out of favor these days? I I haven't heard that as much as I did, you know, 3, 5 years ago.

Speaker A [00:54:40]:
But No. I'm sure

Speaker C [00:54:41]:
this is I'm still hearing it. I'm sensing

Speaker B [00:54:43]:
it and

Speaker A [00:54:43]:
hearing it. Me too.

Speaker B [00:54:44]:
Me too. With millennials. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same.

Speaker A [00:54:49]:
I I just thought I I guess I was more pessimistic than that. Not that that we've lost all of them. What's the next one after z's, though?

Speaker B [00:54:58]:
Alpha.

Speaker A [00:54:59]:
Alpha. Oh, zeta alpha. Yeah. Gonna make sense. Zed, right, if you're from Canada? Yeah. I got a Canada reference in there today. So Yeah.

Speaker C [00:55:09]:
And and I don't know who the person from Saskatoon Saskatoon is.

Speaker A [00:55:12]:
Yeah. Identify yourself, sir. I'm hoping, ma'am,

Speaker C [00:55:16]:
or whatever. Drop us a line, Chad.

Speaker B [00:55:17]:
They would email us at the fish at catfishministries.com.

Speaker C [00:55:21]:
There you go. So mystery Saskatoon listener,

Speaker A [00:55:25]:
the fish. We also now now we gotta do it.

Speaker B [00:55:27]:
Got us a line.

Speaker A [00:55:28]:
Dropped us a line from Uganda. Excuse me too. I'm really excited about hearing from her her let's assume the best. Maybe there's, like, 25 people. Because from Uganda.

Speaker C [00:55:41]:
We're curious.

Speaker B [00:55:43]:
You know you're curious. It's catfish medicine.

Speaker A [00:55:45]:
That's right. You know you're curious.

Speaker B [00:55:49]:
So yeah. So deconstructing. Right? How do we how do we reach people that have deconstructed?

Speaker A [00:55:56]:
I think I think there has to be like, if they've truly come up in the faith, and then they've deconstructed, my my totally anecdotal experience has been they've gotta kind of live it out and see how bad it really is outside of the church. They've gotta it's kinda like why you do church discipline. The whole point is you deliver them over to Satan for the destruction of the physical bodies the way Paul describes it so that their spirit might be saved in the end. Right? And and that that's we don't wanna take we wanna be careful how we apply that specifically, but the whole point is not everybody needs to be in the church because it's not good for them to be in the church. If you need spiritual discipline, you need to be outside the church, see what it's like to be outside of the fellowship. You need to be out there in the world experiencing what you think is so great Mhmm. In order for you to go, oh, I need to go back to the father, like the prodigal son. So it's not a fun process, and you don't wanna see people go through it.

Speaker A [00:56:59]:
But I think my experience with deconstructors is that a lot of them just have to experience the worst of it, and then they go, oh, this is what I this is what I thought I was missing, but it pretty much stinks I wanna go back. God had a reason for forbidding certain things because they're fun in the moment, but they're destructive in the long run.

Speaker B [00:57:19]:
Yeah. My thought is there won't be a quick or easy solution, certainly nothing that a consultant can get you, but I think the only way deconstructed folks will find their way back to the faith, part of it is, you know, the life apart from God, the life of separation that they would be living at the time. The other part is the way back is going to be coming into contact with an authentic believer, living an authentic life Yeah. That wants to be a real friend to them.

Speaker A [00:57:53]:
Yeah. That's great.

Speaker B [00:57:54]:
And I Yeah. Don't see any other if we're gonna get into the mechanics of how to bring them back, I don't see another way because they're gonna cut themselves off from everything. They're not gonna go stream a church service. They're not gonna go pick up a book. They're certainly if they still have a Bible, they're not going to read it. The only the only obvious way back at that point is for an authentic relationship to emerge in their life with a believer who's willing to share the gospel with them.

Speaker A [00:58:23]:
Yeah. And be authentic and actually live out the faith. Yeah. I like that. Guess we solved that problem.

Speaker B [00:58:29]:
Yep. So I don't wanna overlook the de churched. I I had in the show notes de churched and deconstructed. The deconstructed is definitely the more popular thing in Christian writing and Christian circles right now. But what about the de church? These are believers that have been hurt or have had, unmet expectations. Something happened. They're still believers, but they no longer want to be in fellowship with the church. And that's never been easier to do than it is right now because you can go screen you can go stream John MacArthur on a Sunday morning.

Speaker B [00:59:08]:
You can stream whoever you want anytime because Zoom church did not go away with COVID. Right? So that is always an option, and you can get a lot of head knowledge that way and, you know, come across the occasional person here and there and kind of trips through life. But Yep. That almost seems like it's a tougher nut to crack with the de churched than the deconstructed in some ways because they're not completely divorced from the fellowship yet. Right?

Speaker A [00:59:37]:
Yeah. I I don't know about you guys, but I've met a number of people who were like, yeah. I'm a Christian too, and then they're like, well, where do you go to church? I'm like, well, we don't really go anymore. And I to be honest, my my knee jerk reaction is, well, are you really a believer? And I I that's the easy that's the easy, you know, cut. My my conversation is, how can you be a believer and then be out of fellowship with the believers?

Speaker B [01:00:02]:
Mhmm.

Speaker A [01:00:03]:
There's a reason why we're not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. I mean, that's that's clear. It doesn't mean you have to be there every Sunday or every time the door opens, but it does mean that you need to regularly fellowship with and be a faithful member, functioning member of the body. That probably means being at most services, if not a super majority of them or whatever. So I I don't know if it's easier or if it's harder, but I, like, I've actually I didn't I tried not to be annoying about it, but I was like, oh, really? How can, like, how can you actually said it once. How can you say you're a believer, but not wanna be in fellowship with your fellow church members? Well, you know, I'm like, okay. Hopefully, that would affect him. Maybe I'd turn him off even more.

Speaker A [01:00:54]:
I doubt it. But

Speaker C [01:00:55]:
If if you've chosen to isolate like that, like, you just don't associate with other believers, there's a whole bunch of commands that you're you're not obeying. Yeah. What do you mean I'm not obeying? Well, love one another, bear with one another, carry one another's burdens, all of the one another commandments. You're you're you're struggling to obey those commands

Speaker A [01:01:15]:
Mhmm.

Speaker C [01:01:16]:
If you're not in regular fellowship. Right. So when you decide to dechurch yourself, it it's not a healthy thing. And most of the time, when you dig deep on people who are dechurching themselves, it's because there's a problem that they just don't have the courage to face squarely. Yeah. They they just don't have the courage to deal with confronting sin, dealing with conflict, whatever it may be. And and and then it becomes, oftentimes, it becomes a form of self righteousness Yeah. In in in their own lives then because because look what they did, and I just now can no longer associate with that.

Speaker C [01:02:00]:
And and they're really setting themselves up in a in a dangerous place when they take that position. Yep.

Speaker A [01:02:08]:
So if you're out there and you're trying to use this would be really pawTree, but if you're trying to use Catfish as your church. Yeah. Shame on you. Go to church.

Speaker C [01:02:17]:
Yeah. We are not a substitute for your

Speaker B [01:02:20]:
Yeah. We definitely are not.

Speaker A [01:02:21]:
We would never even wanna be found that way because No. It's not like we open up the Bible, and, I mean, we're talking about the Bible, and, I mean, you know, we got one episode about 5 Lehman so far, and we wanna do some more stuff, but we're not preaching or most of it we're having a lot of fun while we talk about biblical issues. But That's right. It's no substitute for a church fellowship.

Speaker B [01:02:42]:
Right. So just like you give to the missionaries beyond

Speaker A [01:02:46]:
Above and beyond.

Speaker B [01:02:47]:
The tithe, catfishes above and beyond. Stop. You're what? What did I do?

Speaker A [01:02:53]:
What? It's not wrong, but it just just sounds so quick, doesn't it? It doesn't just feel wrong. It just oozes wrong.

Speaker B [01:03:01]:
Well, this is Chad, sending up for Greg and Dave. We know you're curious, and it's Catfish Ministries.

Speaker A [01:03:07]:
Let's see you guys.

Speaker B [01:03:23]:
Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee dot com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.