Where are the Evangelists?! (Timeless)

The Bible has much to say about church roles and offices.  Teachers, preachers, elders, deacons, and evangelists.  Most people at most churches today can name those offices in churches that have them.  But where are the evangelists, and why is this role in particular left out of explicit recognition in so many churches?

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Transcript

Chad [00:00:02]:
So no. Tonight, we're talking we're we're actually starting with a question, and the question is, where are the evangelists? And this question was posed by mister Greg. So, mister Greg, start us off. Yeah. Where are they? I don't know. Dave? Okay.

Dave [00:00:22]:
This was the short episode the shortest episode ever. I don't know.

Greg [00:00:46]:
So in my office, we're going through a, a transition from a software platform to another software platform. Oh. Yes. Which is,

Chad [00:00:57]:
be nice.

Greg [00:00:58]:
That is the point. It has to do with snacks.

Dave [00:01:01]:
Okay. Alright. Okay. So is there something good at the end?

Greg [00:01:05]:
It's it's requiring people to come in and to reenter all kinds of information about patients. Mhmm. And every discipline has to come in, and the nurses have to come in and do it, and the chaplains and the social workers have to come in and enter all this information. And so our employer has generously generously provided all these snacks for us. And I walked in on Monday, and there's this mountain of food that somebody went to Costco and just went absolutely nuts. Can I say Costco? I think you can. So so our one office in one town, they did it at Costco. The other office, they did it at Sam's Club there.

Greg [00:01:47]:
I'm being fair and equitable. Okay?

Dave [00:01:49]:
So they can both be your sponsors.

Greg [00:01:51]:
So 2 days later, I went in the one office, and I'm like, wow. We had some hungry nurses. Oh.

Dave [00:02:00]:
Could you say that out loud? I mean,

Chad [00:02:03]:
and I

Dave [00:02:03]:
said say that out loud.

Greg [00:02:04]:
And I said, wow. There was a plague of locusts that came through because all the snacky snacks are gone and there's only apples left.

Dave [00:02:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. All that ultra processed foods.

Greg [00:02:14]:
So I had an apple this morning. Okay. It was tasty. Trick or

Chad [00:02:18]:
treat all all over again. Yeah.

Greg [00:02:22]:
No. I don't know what the point of that was.

Dave [00:02:23]:
No. It's good. It I I did I'm awake still, so that's good.

Chad [00:02:27]:
Yeah. I'm fascinated by software. Yeah.

Dave [00:02:34]:
Sorry. What? Bumps and spike it. That's the way we like it.

Chad [00:02:37]:
Mhmm. Now that's fascinating. That's fascinating. Yeah.

Dave [00:02:43]:
Good stuff. What are we talking about tonight? Today?

Greg [00:02:46]:
Oh, well

Chad [00:02:46]:
This morning.

Dave [00:02:48]:
Whenever this is that you're listening.

Chad [00:02:50]:
Just me.

Greg [00:02:50]:
And and I think this episode, we could potentially cross a major milestone. Could we? Do do you think we could cross the 1,000 listener?

Chad [00:03:00]:
Oh, I hope so.

Dave [00:03:02]:
It's possible.

Greg [00:03:02]:
I think that that's a reasonable goal

Chad [00:03:05]:
I think so.

Greg [00:03:05]:
For this episode, the 1,000.

Dave [00:03:07]:
If if everybody will just recommend us to 1 person.

Chad [00:03:11]:
Yeah. Well, I think it would be a 1,000 plays or downloads at this point. Not necessarily a 1,000 listeners.

Dave [00:03:18]:
Right. Well,

Chad [00:03:19]:
you you

Greg [00:03:19]:
know But shout out to

Chad [00:03:21]:
But

Dave [00:03:22]:
shout out to Uganda. Yes. And I am the very mess effens of a Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

Chad [00:03:31]:
Is that the national anthem up there? I don't know.

Greg [00:03:34]:
They're gonna stop listening if you keep Yeah.

Chad [00:03:36]:
If you keep making fun of the national anthem, they will.

Dave [00:03:41]:
I know what the national store is for Canada. It's the roots. Right? Canadian Tire. Canadian Tire. Okay. I thought

Chad [00:03:49]:
it was Tim Hortons.

Dave [00:03:50]:
Tim Hortons. That's probably fair. Okay. I know my Canadian Cool cool stuff for DA Carson actually uses that for as an illustration of of Jesus is better in Hebrews. He uses his because he was in Molson dorm at McGill University. And so they use that theme, which is Moulson is better. Right? Yeah. Because that's there's you can't outdo better because anytime you, right, it's always comparative better.

Dave [00:04:19]:
So whatever you give, so that's his he uses that as an illustration for Jesus is better

Chad [00:04:24]:
than Hebrews. So so my alma mater I know you guys like to talk about your your wonderful Bible education and everything. But to give you an idea of my alma mater, the last building, the dorm set of dorms that they built is named after the local, wine bottler, beer bottler.

Dave [00:04:41]:
There you go. So. Okay. Yeah.

Chad [00:04:43]:
Yep.

Dave [00:04:44]:
Yeah. So

Chad [00:04:44]:
they're not even hiding anymore.

Dave [00:04:46]:
So you have that in common with with DA Carson?

Greg [00:04:49]:
I got it.

Dave [00:04:49]:
You have an education in common with the DA Carson?

Chad [00:04:53]:
It's practically like we're the same.

Dave [00:04:55]:
It's like your educations are a 100% equivalent. I know.

Greg [00:04:58]:
Just about merely.

Chad [00:05:02]:
So no. Tonight, we're talking we're we're actually starting with a question. And the question is, where are the evangelists? And this question was posed by mister Greg. So, mister Greg, start us off. Yeah. Where are they? I don't know. Dave? Okay.

Dave [00:05:22]:
This was the shortest episode. Shortest episode ever. I don't know. In North Carolina. Wait. Over there. Black Mountain, North Carolina? No. What is it that, the the Billy Graham Center is at? Black Mountain? No.

Greg [00:05:35]:
I don't know where they are.

Dave [00:05:36]:
Did Like, Montreat it's in Montreat, North Carolina.

Chad [00:05:39]:
I thought I saw one over there.

Dave [00:05:41]:
On the Black Mountains, I think it's called. Black Mountain Healthcare. Yeah.

Greg [00:05:43]:
I thought I saw

Dave [00:05:44]:
one over there. I used to coach volleyball against that team. Did you? Mhmm. Cool.

Greg [00:05:48]:
Yeah. But they

Dave [00:05:50]:
have a college there called Monterey College that hosts the Billy Graham Center on that same mountain. Okay. Yeah. I don't know if they're tied together, but Montreat, I wonder if that's short for mountain retreat.

Chad [00:06:04]:
Could be.

Dave [00:06:05]:
Never thought of that.

Chad [00:06:06]:
Well, we just changed the purpose of this episode.

Dave [00:06:09]:
Yeah. Always.

Chad [00:06:09]:
We're we're gonna find out what Montreat sorry, Greg. Mantri.

Greg [00:06:13]:
It's time

Chad [00:06:14]:
for evangelism.

Dave [00:06:15]:
Alright. Yeah. So so

Greg [00:06:16]:
Until next week.

Dave [00:06:17]:
Clarify because I I think I understand the meaning of that question. So, Greg, tell us what you mean by where are the evangelists.

Greg [00:06:24]:
In Ephesians chapter 4,

Dave [00:06:26]:
one of our favorite passages

Greg [00:06:27]:
on this

Dave [00:06:28]:
podcast. Passages. Yeah.

Greg [00:06:29]:
Indeed. Verse 11 talks about the church, and he says Paul writes and he says, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and the teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry. Do you hear me? Oh, yeah. Yes. That's my paper bible, not my electronic bible. Nice. For building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the son of God to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Mhmm.

Greg [00:07:10]:
So it's talking about the the offices that are given, and it mentions that he's given apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. Mhmm. So 5 5 offices.

Dave [00:07:22]:
Well, we would would you agree that

Greg [00:07:24]:
Pastor and teachers.

Dave [00:07:24]:
Pastor and teachers.

Greg [00:07:25]:
So 4 offices. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

Dave [00:07:28]:
I knew you knew that.

Greg [00:07:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. And so then being good dispensationalists that we are.

Dave [00:07:34]:
Some of us.

Greg [00:07:35]:
Some of us. Anyway, we're we're in agreement here that apostles and prophets is an office that was for the 1st century.

Dave [00:07:46]:
Right? For the For the founding of the church.

Greg [00:07:48]:
For the founding of the of the church. After the founding of the church, once the once the canon is complete, that there are no longer, apostles and prophets. Okay? Scripture is the authority. So now there's these two offices left, pastor, teacher, and evangelist. And if you look at churches across America, and big churches, small churches, there's the there's a strong emphasis on the pastor teacher. They everybody wants to make sure there's a good pastor teacher, a shepherd, a strong shepherd, a strong teacher, a strong expositor, that is valued, that is of such high importance in the local church. Mhmm. And my question is, where are the evangelists? Mhmm.

Greg [00:08:40]:
Where is that office of evangelists? Why is it not talked about? Why is it not taught about? Why is it not promoted? And why are we not seeing it? Mhmm. And it seems as though evangelism is relegated to one of 2 places. It's either for Billy Graham or or the big missionary crusade or evangelist crusade movement.

Dave [00:09:04]:
The evangelist. The televangelist or traveling evangelist. Okay.

Greg [00:09:07]:
So the the big super event that comes to town and 5,000 or 10,000 or 50,000 people come, 1,000,000 of dollars are spent promoting it, and we just try to get everybody to come for this one event. Mhmm. Or it's relegated to 2 Sundays a year. Your Easter Sunday, resurrection Sunday Mhmm. Or Christmas. Christmas and

Dave [00:09:33]:
Or Christmas Eve service.

Greg [00:09:34]:
Christmas Eve service or whatever whatever it may be. Two times during the year, we we make a big evangelistic push around Easter and around Christmas. And and a lot of churches have their church calendar kinda pointing to those 2 events. But the rest of the year, where's where's the evangelists? Where are the evangelists? Where are we talking about raising up evangelists in the church and and, and sending them out to do the work of evangelists? So Okay.

Dave [00:10:04]:
So, yeah, can you help me with your definition? Because we've already talked about the the stereotypical evangelist, and I have a feeling not I have more than a feeling here because I know you.

Greg [00:10:15]:
But More than a feeling.

Dave [00:10:18]:
Hey. 80s music. Rocks, baby.

Chad [00:10:20]:
Wait for it so I can cut that so we don't have to pay royalties.

Greg [00:10:23]:
Do we have to pay a royalty for

Dave [00:10:25]:
That was it. That was given for educational purpose. Four words? There's an educational purpose there. Yeah. I'm not sure what it was, but it's

Chad [00:10:34]:
I'm gonna leave it in and we'll see what happens.

Dave [00:10:37]:
I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure they'll shut down our LLC for that. Like That's it. What do we have, like, $12 in the LLC savings account? That's something

Greg [00:10:47]:
for me.

Chad [00:10:47]:
Negative. Oh, an optimist.

Dave [00:10:49]:
An optimist. Wait. What did you do with the 25 I gave you the other day?

Chad [00:10:53]:
Yeah. Dude, this kid was a sherbet.

Dave [00:10:56]:
We went to a sherbet? What?

Chad [00:10:57]:
It was a sherbet, man.

Dave [00:10:59]:
Yeah. Wow. You're hearing. You know,

Greg [00:11:01]:
they said that's the second thing to go.

Dave [00:11:02]:
That was a play. Wait. Your memory's going you said that several times in the last few episodes.

Greg [00:11:10]:
Are you sure it was Greg? Zoom. Okay.

Dave [00:11:14]:
Yeah. So what were we

Greg [00:11:16]:
talking about?

Dave [00:11:19]:
We were talking definition of of an evangelist. This is what we call banter. Now what but let's let's define what an evangelist is because the stereotype is Billy Graham. Right. Right? That evangelism is a thing that's done by one person, and the work of evangelist is going around or being on TV and having hundreds and hundreds of people or thousands and thousands of people listen to you and come forward, and they're without any kind of discipleship necessarily afterwards. Is that what you mean by evangelism or evangelist? Excuse me.

Greg [00:11:55]:
No. It is not. Okay. What do you mean? So an evangelist is someone who goes where Christ has not been preached, or has hardly been preached, or where a church has not been established, and preaches the good news of the gospel, or heralds the name of Christ to those people and and works to establish church.

Dave [00:12:16]:
Okay. So you you see it as a church planner?

Greg [00:12:19]:
So sort of yes, but it doesn't have to be a church planter.

Dave [00:12:24]:
Okay. So a missionary a a classic missionary would be an evangelist in one sense.

Greg [00:12:28]:
So in one sense, yes.

Dave [00:12:30]:
Okay.

Greg [00:12:31]:
But a local church can have evangelists because going to where Jesus hasn't been preached does not mean going to the dark recesses of name your continent. Because every single city in in every single country Mhmm. Has dark recesses where Christ isn't known.

Dave [00:12:52]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:12:53]:
And and you think of our state of Northern United States near some lakes, in with with the business climate that we have, there there are people from all around the world here who don't know Jesus. Right, sir. Who know about this guy named Jesus. The whole world, most of the world has heard the name of Jesus and swore with that name. True. But they and they know about and have general ideas, but they've never really heard the message clearly preached to them.

Dave [00:13:24]:
That Jesus

Greg [00:13:24]:
is the Messiah. And and had all of the implications and all of the the reasoning presented to them. Yeah. And you can go forth in any community and preach the good news, and there are evangelists needed to be sent out by the church.

Dave [00:13:42]:
So in your mind, is the evangelist primarily an evangelizer, or is he also he or well, let's say he for the moment. Or is he a person who equips others to do evangelism? Yes. Both? Yeah. Okay. Well, how so and why why do you say that?

Greg [00:14:03]:
How so and why do you

Dave [00:14:04]:
say that? Well, I'm thinking about Ephesians I'm setting you up for Ephesians 411.

Greg [00:14:07]:
Yeah. It's

Dave [00:14:08]:
equip the saints for the work.

Greg [00:14:09]:
Could be yeah. Because it that's what exactly what it is. And it's, it it that's what it's about is equipping the saints for the ministry. And the preacher, the pastor, teacher, shepherd doesn't do all the work of ministry. He equips the saints for the work of ministry. And the evangelist doesn't do all of the evangelism. He's equipping the saints for the work of the evangelism. Obviously, he's going to be doing ministry.

Greg [00:14:33]:
Mhmm. And when you think of how Jesus did ministry, it's like, come and watch me, come and do this with me. Now let me watch you do it. Go and do it. Yeah. And that's that's the same model that that that disciple making takes from the pastor, teacher, or from the evangelist in in equipping the saints for ministry. And the evangelist is going to be winning people to Christ, but he's gonna be taking members of the body, and he's gonna be teaching them and equipping them to do it as he's doing it. And then there's gonna be more evangelists and the church is going to be growing and it's going to be adding to the numbers of the church.

Chad [00:15:08]:
There you go. So I'm curious as to something here. So we started by, you know, going through an apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and preachers. Teachers and preachers are like official church offices. Do you picture Evangelist as an official church office or something else? Has it ever been?

Greg [00:15:32]:
It's listed as an office here in scripture. It's what how God intended for the church to equip the saints Yeah. That there would be evangelists.

Dave [00:15:41]:
Part of the misunderstanding of the word is probably our cultural baggage. And I think the another factor is that you don't see the word evangelist a lot. I opt and this is only off the top of my head, so I could don't quote me on this. But the only 2 that I can think of off the top of my head are are Timothy's told to do the work of an evangelist.

Greg [00:16:00]:
Right.

Dave [00:16:00]:
And then and then the passage is Ephesians 41112.

Greg [00:16:04]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:16:05]:
And so just because of how our culture has used it since Billy Graham and others, we associate that with extra church ministry or right. Right. Outside of the church ministry. But I have been to churches that have evangelism pastors, like pastor of evangelism. You know? Okay. Call him that, or you could why don't you just call him an evangelist?

Greg [00:16:27]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:16:28]:
But most of those guys were a lot better at doing the evangelism than teaching about it. They just were really, really gifted. They don't mean that from a gifted by God. They share the gospel and people just come to Christ left and

Chad [00:16:42]:
right. Mhmm.

Dave [00:16:43]:
Whereas there are people that I know who faithfully share the gospel and they're watering, but they're not doing the the reaping as it were from 1st Corinthians. Right? So but anyway so I I'm with you. I actually I think what gets missed because of our cultural baggage is that we think we bring churches who do that wanna bring in somebody who's really good at doing the evangelism

Greg [00:17:03]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:17:03]:
But don't really don't always think hard about, okay, they're gonna actually equip people to do evangelism. Yeah. Yeah. But why? Why do we need to do evangelism?

Greg [00:17:13]:
Oh, I don't know.

Dave [00:17:15]:
I think we all agree

Chad [00:17:16]:
it's it's kinda

Greg [00:17:17]:
Yeah. You had this whole, like, go ye therefore. See, I'm doing my many different translations things. Yeah. Go and make disciples.

Dave [00:17:27]:
Yeah. But that's just kinda as you're going.

Greg [00:17:29]:
Preach the gospel. Be ready in season, in and out of season.

Dave [00:17:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad [00:17:34]:
In season and out of season. So that's, like, half the year. Right? That's 2 seasons.

Dave [00:17:38]:
Yeah. That was an attempted callback to an earlier episode where I emphasized the fact that this is it is a command. As you go it's not as you go. It's going preach the gospel. Command going Go preach the gospel. So, yeah, we all we all agree that's Yeah.

Chad [00:17:52]:
It's not optional as believers. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I I think you're right, Greg. I think, there's there's, like you almost have, like, a high and low with no mids. It's, like, you got Billy Graham with the big TV.

Dave [00:18:07]:
Explain, please, what that means.

Chad [00:18:08]:
You've got Billy Graham and the big TV evangelist, the big event evangelist. Yep. And then you got the crazy guy in the corner with the sandwich board.

Dave [00:18:17]:
The sandwich side? Yeah.

Chad [00:18:18]:
Yeah. It's one of those two things.

Dave [00:18:20]:
Yeah. There's some really crazy ones.

Chad [00:18:21]:
There there's no mid range. And if there is a mid range, they're probably starving at your church. Right? Maybe there's this mission Sunday. We kinda jam them in there. You know, some other Sunday for general outreach based on some projects.

Dave [00:18:36]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:18:37]:
Let's go rake leaves.

Dave [00:18:38]:
Yeah. Alright. So which Breaking leaves is very valuable, but not evangelism. Yeah. We do okay. So when and when I do we do evangelism. We don't just I hate this phrase. Share the gospel.

Dave [00:18:55]:
Use words if necessary. No. Right? Thank you for reacting. So I again, I think the best to come back to that is cook a meal. If necessary, use food. Yeah. Like, you don't have a meal without food. Right.

Dave [00:19:10]:
You don't have the gospel without words.

Greg [00:19:12]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:19:13]:
You can't you can't

Chad [00:19:15]:
play music if necessary, make sound.

Dave [00:19:17]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's certain things that are intrinsically necessary and you can't share the gospel. And so many even well intended ministries often look, we can give a bunch of stuff to the community, and it's well intended. You can do all sorts of service, but if you don't actually share the gospel with gospel words Yep. You're just sending people to hell a little more comfortable and a little bit better dressed and a little warmer during the winter as it were if you're just giving away coats and not Yeah. Ever following up with some gospel.

Greg [00:19:55]:
You know, in in scripture, like, we're to warn people. We're to warn them of the judgment that's to come. Mhmm. And it's it's very real. Like, if if this if we've been saved, like, when you think about your own testimony and you think about the work that God has done in your life, if you really believe that, if you're excited about it, why wouldn't you tell somebody about it? And when you when you see people sharing stories that they're excited about, like, I can tell you about the wins of the University of Michigan Football this year.

Chad [00:20:31]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:20:32]:
And how they beat Why? What happened? And how they beat Penn State, and how they beat Ohio State, and how they beat Alabama, and how they won the national like, I can tell you those stories. Mhmm. And and, like, everybody's got those stories that they can tell. But to realize that you're a sinner who's lost, separated from God, and being under God's wrath, Like, that's a terrifying thing.

Dave [00:20:59]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:21:00]:
Like, John 3:36, those who do not receive him, God's wrath abides on them. That's terrifying that God's wrath is abiding on somebody. All of God's wrath and fury, his righteous wrath, It's not God is an angry God just meeting out punishment because he's in a bad mood. This is righteous wrath for people who are sinners, who knew who he was. Romans 1, when you read Romans 1. I'm starting to stammer here. Nope, you did. His invisible attributes, so they are clearly seen, chose not to acknowledge him.

Greg [00:21:39]:
Yeah. And and they replaced the creator with a creature and worshiped a creature instead of the creator. Like like, how how offensive is that that we would worship creation rather than the God who created us? And he has every right to be righteously angry and to meet out punishment and wrath on people. And that is the state of millions of people, and that should move people. But it's not just fear based too. It's also that this is the God who is worthy of our worship. He's worthy of our praise. He's worthy of all the glory and honor, and and we should want we should want all the world to join in on that.

Greg [00:22:31]:
So it's it's like twofold. We we wanna bring others along with us to share in the glory and the delight and the beauty of this God who saved us, and we wanna save people from this wrath and fury that we've been saved from. So we're, like, we're running to something, trying to push people to it, and we're reaching back and trying to pull people from a danger that they're facing. And that's that's our motivation. And when I look at sometimes when I look at church, we got the teaching and preaching down. We've got the the pastor teacher part down, and I just wonder where are the evangelists? Why isn't this being an emphasized? Why What are we doing wrong that we're not getting this? Yeah. And then I think, is it just me? What am I doing wrong? Why why am I not being more active in this area? Because if somebody else isn't doing it, then then maybe I'm the one that's supposed to be doing it. Yeah.

Greg [00:23:31]:
But then why isn't it being led from the front? Why isn't it not being taught from the front?

Dave [00:23:37]:
Why aren't we spending a whole summer on Sunday Sunday school teaching people how to think about the gospel and evangelism? Yeah. Oh, wait. Our church is. So before we get started, what's the passage where Paul says he pleads?

Greg [00:23:54]:
2nd Corinthians 10.

Dave [00:23:56]:
Yes. Thank you.

Greg [00:23:58]:
Let me open my paper bible here. I can get there faster than you can type it in with your thumbs.

Chad [00:24:04]:
That's the sound of self satisfaction.

Greg [00:24:06]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Hear that sound?

Chad [00:24:14]:
Is that a candy bar wrapper?

Dave [00:24:16]:
Yes. Sounded like it.

Greg [00:24:18]:
I was angry.

Dave [00:24:20]:
So let's say our church, does or doesn't have somebody that's dedicated to help train us. Or or or let's just say I'm a listener and I'm not particularly confident in sharing the gospel. You know there's the old bridge illustration. How would you go about how would you encourage people to gain some some skill in sharing the gospel?

Greg [00:24:50]:
How would I gain encourage people to gain some skill

Dave [00:24:54]:
Yeah. So the gospel. I mean, obviously, you can just, like, try it. Right? Try to just share your story. Right? But is there is there like when I was going through college, we were forced to remember this one particular style of evangelism where you were given these really kitschy illustrations like sin is bad and how many how how many bad eggs would you put in your omelette? And just like you would want no bad eggs in your omelet, Jesus doesn't like any sin. And so you if you're not perfect, Jesus can't accept you. Oh, okay. And it was just very very clear.

Dave [00:25:28]:
Yeah. There's the there's some explosive words involved with the name of this. It's came out of Florida if you know what I'm talking about.

Greg [00:25:35]:
Oh, yeah.

Dave [00:25:35]:
Right? And it was this really, really, like, super detailed. You had to go it was like a sales presentation with the gospel. Mhmm. And I just was so turned off by that, but, so if there was like, a way or a methodology or,

Greg [00:25:54]:
like Yes. So the simplest thing I would do is I would do as Jesus did, and I would just use the the law, because Roman or not Romans. Galatians 5 talks about the law being a schoolmaster. Mhmm. It's a tutor, and when you think about the law, the Old Testament law, and you think about the commandments, what what did the commandments do? Because keeping the commandments didn't save us. They just showed us how exceedingly sinful our sin was. And, and man's natural tendency, man's bent, is to justify himself. When you talk to anyone, they'll they'll say, I I think I'm a good person.

Greg [00:26:41]:
And when so as a chaplain, when somebody's dying, people will tell me, he is such a good man. She's such a good person. They've done so many good things because they want that said about them. And everybody's gonna extol their goodness, and and people want to do that. But the law is our tutor. It's our schoolmaster, and it shows us how exceedingly sinful our sin is. And Jesus did that. So when when the when the rich young man comes up to Jesus and says, good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? And right away, Jesus, like, we think, yeah, we got him.

Greg [00:27:25]:
Just share the gospel with him. He'll get saved. And right away, Jesus flips the script, and he he said he he recognizes that this man's notion of good is is off kilter. And Jesus says, why do you call me good? There's only one who is good. Okay? Mhmm. And he he points out right away that your measure of goodness is off. You think you know what is good, but you don't know what is good. So then he takes him back to the law, and he he asks the rich young ruler, what does it say in the law? And the rich young ruler says, Well, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Greg [00:28:11]:
And Jesus is like, Yeah. Go That's right. And Jesus says, or the rich young ruler says, I've done all of these things. And he's like, self righteous there. He's, I've I've checked all the boxes. I've done everything that I'm supposed to do. I've kept the law. And Jesus says to him, one thing you lack, go and sell everything and give it to the poor.

Dave [00:28:36]:
And So he was saying he's gonna earn his salvation by giving to the poor. Right?

Greg [00:28:41]:
No. He was he was showing he was exposing to this man where his his god was, what what he was really clinging to. And the man left sad because there was something that he valued more than God and eternal life, and that was his riches.

Dave [00:29:00]:
Yeah. He was greedy.

Greg [00:29:01]:
And He coveted. Yeah. And god and and Jesus flipped the script on him, Matthew 10 17. K. And and disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful for he had great possessions. And Jesus says, how difficult will it be for you to have wealth for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God? So this happens in another instance in in Matthew where Jesus uses the law again, to point out, the true nature of people's heart. And, he says in Matthew chapter 5, he's talking about the law, and he says, do not think that I've come to abolish the law or prophets. I've not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Greg [00:29:50]:
Now he's dealing with the Pharisees and they think that they've kept the law. And they've come up with all these rituals and all these man made laws so that they can keep the law. They're checking the boxes. They think that they've done everything right. They are the keepers of the law. And in Matthew 521, Jesus says, you've heard that it was said to those of old, you shall not murder, and whoever murders will be liable to judgment. And they're like, of course, we know that. Mhmm.

Greg [00:30:19]:
We're not gonna murder. Don't do it. Murder, bad. Verse 22. But I say to you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment. Whoever insults his brother will be liable to counsel. Whoever says, you fool, will be liable to, the hallowed fire. And he's pointing out to them that that it's not the act of taking someone's life.

Greg [00:30:44]:
It's the heart attitude towards them that is the sin. I take this and I translate this to my approach with people. If I'm talking with someone and the subject of God comes up and, and they proclaim their own goodness in one way or another, they think they're a good person, I would say I would I would say, you know, I used to think that way too. And can I tell you what changed my mind about that? And they'll reluctantly say yes, and I'll start going through some of the commandments. And I like to do it with myself because you can do it with them and say, Have you ever told a lie before? Most people will say, Yeah, I've told a lie. Everybody's told a lie. And they'll do that. They'll say, Everybody's told a lie because they're trying to justify themselves.

Greg [00:31:34]:
Yep.

Chad [00:31:35]:
And

Greg [00:31:35]:
you say, I know, but have you told a lie? And what do you call someone who's told a lie? A liar. Or what do you call someone who's told a lie? Yeah. Okay. And then you just move on to the next one. Have you ever taken anything that didn't belong to you before?

Dave [00:31:52]:
Yeah, sold a piece of gold.

Greg [00:31:53]:
Yeah. And sometimes people say no and then you say, Well, you just told me you're

Dave [00:31:57]:
a liar. Come on. Mhmm. But You never took quarter from your

Greg [00:32:01]:
mom's purse. Will admit that. And, and and you can talk about the murder. Have you have you ever hated someone? And and and people will admit that. And and when you're dealing with a guy, this this will get them. In Matthew chapter 5, verse 27, Jesus says, You've heard it said, you shall not commit adultery. You know, that's a really bad one. You're not supposed to mess around on your wife.

Greg [00:32:26]:
Right. But Jesus said, I say to you, anyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has committed adultery in his heart. Remember what it was like being a teenager or last week? Have you ever looked at a woman with lust? And and every single man has to admit that. Mhmm. So you've admitted that you're a lying, thieving, adulteress murderer at at heart. We've only looked at 4 of the 10 Commandments. If God were to judge you by those 10 Commandments, would you be guilty or innocent? And they'll say, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for me, so I'm okay. Well, no.

Greg [00:33:11]:
If he judges you by those commandments, are you going to be guilty or innocent? And and, and they will they have to admit that they're going to be guilty. And it's from that point that you can then talk about what Jesus did on the cross and share the gospel with them. And I never I never ask anybody to pray a prayer. I never tell anybody because you prayed that prayer, you're saved. Mhmm. I would say, I really hope you think about these things. I really hope you consider these things. If you have a Bible Do you have a Bible? If you want a Bible, I'll get you a Bible.

Greg [00:33:47]:
You have a Bible at home? Great. Pick it up, read it, and do what it says. Obey God's word. Ask him to reveal himself to you, and he will because he's a rewarder of those who seek him. And then I would encourage them to connect with the church. And it's not that hard to do. And the more you do it, the easier it is.

Dave [00:34:05]:
I've seen some videos of some different people using that methodology, and you're the one who's kinda brought it to my attention in the past because I didn't like that canned program that I was forced to use, require to learn, I just would basically take a passage of scripture and walk through it. Mhmm. So I would walk through, say, the book of Romans, the first three chapters of the book of Romans, or I would go through Ephesians 2, 1 through 10 or whatever. But I like I like that other approach. Like, I I still like, as I'm sharing today, I will generally walk through the gospel straightforward. And then I've been trying to use that methodology if they go, well, I I don't really need a gospel because I'm a pretty good person. The other part is I tend to be I tend to connect with people who are very, very philosophical in conversations, And so I just try to find creative ways to to do pre evangelism, what I call pre evangelism. So, you know, I I've got a few I've had a few people in the past who don't they claim to be atheists, but then they'll talk about the universe having a purpose.

Dave [00:35:19]:
Right. Right? And you're like, so how can the universe have a purpose if there is no God behind that universe? Well, it's the universe. Well yeah. But intentionality demands something that has intention. Right. Right? And then what I've been impressed with the methodology, Greg, that you're talking about is that really cuts beyond the intellectual questions that people have, and it goes right to where their heart is. Mhmm. And what they know whether or not they in their head, believe in a God, they have those moments where they feel guilty about their sin.

Dave [00:35:58]:
Yeah. And they have those moments where they feel guilty about their sin, and they know when they wake up at 2 in the morning and feel empty that something's going on. But what the methodology that you're talking about, Greg, in terms of using the scriptures and getting them to see their fallenness seems to go be beyond the intellect Mhmm. And moves right to the heart.

Greg [00:36:27]:
And

Dave [00:36:27]:
so I really appreciate that. And even as I talk with more, you know, generally more philosophical people, I've been trying more and more to quickly get to the well, did you ever feel guilty? Mhmm. Do you ever just kind of because you you have this moral sensibility. Right? And, you know, if you believe there's a purpose in the universe, well, I can try to sit there and talk with you intellectually about it, but if I never get to the heart, I'm not gonna get to the real issue. Yeah. Because it's about repentance of the heart. Yeah. So

Chad [00:37:00]:
hopefully, it's okay if I say this. This is pretty much Ray Comfort's way of the

Dave [00:37:06]:
master.

Greg [00:37:07]:
It is. Ray Comfort's The Way of the Master, and livingwaters.com is his training material. Mhmm. And, and John MacArthur gave a a resounding endorsement of Ray Comfort's training that he does with Living Waters and this method of using the 10 Commandments and, just to he'd like John MacArthur and his church released an official statement on this, endorsing this and and its methodology, because it's so effective. And when you're going through those commandments, one of a very common thing that will come up is people will say, well, I don't believe in a God who or I don't believe that God is or I don't believe and they'll they're saying, I don't believe that God and what are they doing right there when they say that? They're admitting their own belief. Well, they're they're breaking the first commandment.

Dave [00:38:03]:
Well, yeah. It's idolatry.

Greg [00:38:03]:
You saw no other gods before me. And when you do that dictate what God has. When they do that, you right away go to the first commandment. And so they've they've said, well, I don't believe that God, a loving God would do this. And I say to them, you know, what you've done right there is you have set yourself up above God, and you've broken the first commandment. God says you shall have no other gods before me. And what you're trying to do is say that what you think and what your thoughts are are higher and above what God says. And and you really need to consider that because God has said clearly in his word, you shall have no other gods before me, that you should not commit adultery, you should not lie, you should not steal, that you should honor your father and your mother, you should not use the name of the Lord your God in vain, and that when you when you violate his commands, you are guilty.

Chad [00:38:58]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:38:59]:
And whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter. Whether you believe it or not, it doesn't matter. God has said this, and you stand guilty before Him. Yep. And don't be afraid to talk about yourself. Yeah. Don't be afraid to admit your own guilt before them. It's been very rare if you're doing it in a sensitive way, when I have had somebody get super mad at me because I'm judging them.

Greg [00:39:28]:
It's going to happen. Mhmm. It will happen. Yes, ma'am. But it's been rare that it has happened. More often than not, I can see God pricking their conscience. I can see them get quiet and stirred, and I can see them wrestle with the spirit of god in that moment. And, and they may not yield, but I've sown the seed.

Greg [00:39:56]:
Right. And I may be the one that's watering the seed right there. Mhmm. Because somebody else may have sown it, like, months ago or years ago. Yeah. And who knows what's going to happen?

Dave [00:40:06]:
Yeah. And if you do end up going in like, he's got a ton of videos on YouTube. Yeah. But, I think he has a real gift of connecting with people, and he can be very confrontational. Mhmm. In a way that somehow they don't feel like he's being super unloving. Right. Right? And so I like what you're saying, Greg, about making it about you first and then pointing to them.

Dave [00:40:33]:
Because eventually, you have to say, look, you are a sinner. Mhmm. Right? But what you're saying is you put it on you first so that you're saying, hey, we're all sinners. I'm 1. Kind of not soften it at all, but kinda say, look, I'm not sitting here being judgy because I'm judging myself in the same way. The scriptures are judging us. But and then turning it to them and going, hey. You're a lying, cheating, thieving, adulterer And blasphemer.

Dave [00:41:01]:
And blasphemer. Yeah. And all that covetous, probably.

Greg [00:41:04]:
Right? Yeah.

Chad [00:41:06]:
Yeah. And that that's the thing. And I I think, Dave and I taught a class together, with our wives at our church this last fall. And we did use a couple of videos from, Living Waters in Ray Comfort. And I had to warn the people. I was just like, most of you have never seen this before. Get ready. Buckle up.

Chad [00:41:28]:
He's good. He's good.

Dave [00:41:29]:
He's really good at it and

Greg [00:41:30]:
he just

Dave [00:41:31]:
has this gift.

Chad [00:41:31]:
Yeah. He has a gift and that approach, while the fundamentals are sound, it may not be for everybody. Right?

Dave [00:41:38]:
So In terms of the tone that he takes because he he he's pretty just like walk up and not literally, but kind of

Chad [00:41:46]:
Yeah. So I guess Punch you in the forehead with

Dave [00:41:49]:
with the truth.

Chad [00:41:49]:
Yeah. Which which

Dave [00:41:50]:
I like.

Chad [00:41:51]:
Yeah. I I love it. And, ultimately, that's what everyone's gonna do, but, don't get hypnotized by the mechanics of it. Right? Think about

Dave [00:42:00]:
the how he uses scripture and how he uses the gospel. Not the well, he uses the gospel as a solution that the law brings up.

Greg [00:42:06]:
Right. Yeah. And so when you genuinely care about people

Chad [00:42:12]:
Yes.

Greg [00:42:12]:
Like when you genuinely care about them, people can see that. And when you're talking to them and you really When they can see that you authentically care about them and love them, and you care about their soul, and you care about their eternal destiny, They'll listen, and they'll respect. And when you can respectfully disagree, they can respect you for that. Yep. And, Ray Comfort, when you hear this, we would love to come on your podcast. And you're welcome to to come on ours as well. Absolutely.

Dave [00:42:55]:
Yeah. We have room in our living room.

Greg [00:42:57]:
Yeah. I can't wait until we check next week and we see a new download from California or maybe from New Zealand. Oh, yeah. If he's, like, back visiting his homeland because he is he is from New Zealand.

Dave [00:43:10]:
Oh, really? Just crass commercialism right here. Yeah. We love you, right? On your podcast.

Greg [00:43:19]:
2003. I I I had his teachings on VHS. Oh.

Dave [00:43:23]:
I'm sorry. What is a v what is VHS? Exactly. VHHS?

Chad [00:43:28]:
Virtually hosted system?

Greg [00:43:29]:
It was something like that. Yes.

Dave [00:43:32]:
I just remember okay. Alright. Cultural reference here. Please. When VHS came out, it ruined the churches that the legalistic church is teaching on not going to theaters because you no longer had to go to theater to watch a movie.

Chad [00:43:48]:
That's right.

Dave [00:43:49]:
So then it became an issue of, oh, wait. It's not where you go that's makes it righteous or not. It's what you're putting into your brain through the eye gates. Right? So it was a really interesting time to be alive because when I was at Bible College, we couldn't go to the movie theater. Right. But we could go to someone's house who had a VHS. Yep. And then eventually, they found a way to try to regulate that because you couldn't watch our movies or whatever.

Dave [00:44:15]:
Right? Yeah. And even then, that wasn't a good standard because in our movie might be, like, Rambo. Yeah. Right? Where it's just there's violence, and then you'd have a in the eighties, it was, you know, PG movies that were just foul. So anyway Yeah. VHS. I'm so disappointed though. I haven't made a Canadian reference to this podcast on Greg.

Dave [00:44:39]:
So that's okay.

Greg [00:44:40]:
Yeah. We we can continue on talking about the evangelism and,

Dave [00:44:46]:
So in terms of how how would you put this all into place? Yeah. Like, how how like, if you had carte blanche and you you were you were church dictator for a day, how like, what would be the ideal program for a church to to develop evangelism in the church?

Greg [00:45:07]:
Okay. If I was church dictator for the day. No. If if I wanted to to to implement this in the church, I would, I would it would it would need to be taught from the pulpit that that this is, that this is important. This is this is evangelism is is the mission of the church. We need to be doing this. This is how we do it, and, this is what we're going to be doing. And then I would break it down into small small groups.

Greg [00:45:42]:
That small group may be the Sunday school class or the small church or whatever it may be, and I would I would have it taught there. So I would teach leaders to teach it there. And then, you gotta get out and do it with people. And I would recommend that people watch Way of the Master, their YouTube channel.

Chad [00:46:02]:
Yep. Is

Dave [00:46:03]:
that the kung fu movie? Yeah.

Chad [00:46:06]:
He just talked about this, Dave. Did you already forget?

Dave [00:46:11]:
Do I have to use a bad Chinese accent? No. The way it's No. I didn't.

Greg [00:46:17]:
I said sundowners again already. Wow. Oh. And then just get out and do it. And you you have to, you just have to share your faith. You have to talk to people. And you can Use words as necessary.

Chad [00:46:33]:
Oh, gosh, darn it, Dave.

Dave [00:46:34]:
He just doesn't pay Such language, Chad. He just doesn't pay attention.

Greg [00:46:38]:
He's not paying attention. No. Use words all the time. Use words

Chad [00:46:44]:
all the time.

Dave [00:46:44]:
Gospel without words. Okay. Yes. I remember that now. Yes.

Greg [00:46:49]:
Okay. Everybody, open your bibles to the book of Romans Yeah. And we're going to try to find out.

Dave [00:46:57]:
I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for in it, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. Just as it's written, the just shall live by faith.

Greg [00:47:05]:
No. That's not where I was going. Oh.

Chad [00:47:08]:
Good guess, though.

Dave [00:47:09]:
Yeah. But you gotta hit that in context before you start to hit the other stuff.

Greg [00:47:13]:
You don't even know where I was going.

Dave [00:47:16]:
Such a disappointment. Chapter 10. Yeah. How beautiful are the feet?

Greg [00:47:26]:
No. Yeah. You use words all the time. Yeah. All the time, use the words. Because Romans chapter 10, Paul says, but they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, lord, who has believed what he has heard from us? So faith comes from watching them do good things? No. Faith comes from getting a warm lunch served to them.

Greg [00:47:55]:
No. Faith comes from hearing Getting

Dave [00:47:58]:
a free pair of socks. No.

Greg [00:48:00]:
Faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed, they have. Now we can stop there.

Dave [00:48:12]:
Yeah. Have

Greg [00:48:13]:
they not heard? Yeah. Yeah. They need to hear. It needs to be words. All the good deeds in the world aren't gonna get people to believe. Yep. You have to open your mouth. Yep.

Greg [00:48:24]:
So, God, open our mouths.

Chad [00:48:26]:
Yeah. And I I agree. I think that is a great approach. I would I would add to that that it's on it's on the pastor and the leaders of the church to know their congregants, know their passions, and know their evangelists. Yeah. And remove obstacles and provide resources wherever possible.

Dave [00:48:49]:
Yeah. And if you're a solo pastor at a smaller church or even a larger church, you don't have the excuse of not doing the evangelism because Timothy is told by Paul, do the work of an evangelist. Yep. We're the work of an evangelist. Right? So it means you need to equip the saints for the work of ministry by doing and helping them do word evangelism.

Chad [00:49:14]:
That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Greg [00:49:16]:
That it

Chad [00:49:17]:
should be absolutely shameless. There should be no mistaking it from the from the pulpit that Tom over there, he's got a passion for this. He needs help with blah blah blah to, you know, reach people whatever. So I I mean, I'm not above product.

Dave [00:49:33]:
The blah blah blah for me. I was a little confused.

Chad [00:49:36]:
Sharing the gospel.

Dave [00:49:37]:
Okay. He needs help with a particular Yeah. Event that you're doing or something like that. Okay.

Chad [00:49:41]:
Or an outreach or Yep.

Dave [00:49:42]:
Or whatever. Mhmm.

Chad [00:49:43]:
So, yeah, I I would say that that kind of product placement on a Sunday morning would be more than appropriate myself.

Greg [00:49:51]:
Yeah. And so one of the one of my perspectives, and I may be wrong in this, but part of the church growth that happened in the eighties, I think people have a tendency to attribute it to the the lights and the music and the new methods and the marketing and all of this. But when I look back and I hear the stories when I talk to some of the older people, it was Bible studies happening in their homes. Yep. It was men it was like it was the professional businessmen's bible studies. Like, people were doing evangelism. Mhmm. And and the evangelists were there and they were reaching out.

Greg [00:50:34]:
But then people came to church and it became about this big service that was the outreach. And the evangelist became an event instead of people who were equipped to go out Mhmm. And do the work of the evangelist. Yep. And so I might be wrong in my perspective of that, but that's, as I've listened to to a lot of older men tell the stories of of what they saw with church growth and the church movements that they were in, that's that's kinda what I've been hearing and seeing and discerning that was going on, that there were evangelists. Growth was happening by evangelism, and the evangelism got replaced Mhmm. By marketing and production.

Dave [00:51:23]:
Yeah. I do think I do agree with you because I I think, you know, you transitioned from a, like, seventies fifties to the seventies was all the same style of doing church. And the culture was changing and musical tastes were changing and, you know, I've talked to you guys about in the past about the appeal of the kind the church growth movement for me was more cultural, but I lost zeal for it because you get into it and you realize after a while, they're shallowing down the gospel. But, initially, what it was is taking the gospel and allowing it to be done in new new styles, if you will, but the core of the gospel wasn't missing. And then as you're saying, you get enamored with the techniques and then you you forget the actual content of the gospel and you just focus on the techniques, and then you go, oh, we'll use these techniques, bring in a lot of people and forget that it's actually about the

Greg [00:52:21]:
Right.

Dave [00:52:21]:
Hard style of animals that goes with it. So

Chad [00:52:24]:
There you go.

Dave [00:52:25]:
And that's the depth. The lack of depth eventually is what drew me away from that that church growth movement to a more culturally relevant, but gospel centered approach to doing ministry. Yeah. Good stuff, Greg. Thanks for bringing up the topic.

Greg [00:52:41]:
So this is what we're about. Get catfished, America.

Chad [00:52:45]:
Get catfished.

Greg [00:52:46]:
The real

Dave [00:52:46]:
The gospel fish. The real deal.

Chad [00:52:51]:
The real deal. And we know you're curious. So if you want to hear us tackle other issues beyond Tackle. Good choice of words. Yeah. See what it did there? If you wanna see us or hear us tackle other issues, that that are top of mind for you, please reach out to us. It's

Dave [00:53:13]:
Or even just follow-up questions from today's episode for past episodes. Yep.

Chad [00:53:17]:
That'd be great too.

Dave [00:53:18]:
The fish at Catfish Ministries?

Chad [00:53:20]:
That is it. The fish at catfishministries.com.

Greg [00:53:23]:
Okay. Ray, if you're listening, did

Chad [00:53:25]:
you get that? We love you, Ray.

Greg [00:53:26]:
Yeah. We love you. We really do. Okay. So

Chad [00:53:31]:
Please, please, please. Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee dot com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.