Men Walking as Trees (Timeless)

We're off to take a look at one of the more mysterious healing miracles of Jesus's ministry, the two-part healing of a blind man in Mark chapter 8.  Why did the man see 'men walking as trees' before seeing clearly?  We take a deep dive into scripture and examine it in the context of Jesus's earthly ministry, the Old Testament, and the inspiration of the Gospels.

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

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Chad [00:00:00]:
Alright. I'm

Dave [00:00:01]:
gonna do that. Alright. I can't help myself. Okay. Good stuff.

Greg [00:00:04]:
Yes. That's good stuff. Okay.

Dave [00:00:07]:
Okay. It's like the stuff in the Oreos.

Greg [00:00:11]:
Yeah. You coulda used Oreo for the Markin's Markin sandwich. Markin Oreo. Okay. Then this happens We start. Then this

Dave [00:00:19]:
this whole thing all over again.

Greg [00:00:20]:
This passage would have been a double stuffed Oreo. Right.

Chad [00:00:23]:
No doubt. Best Saturday Night Live skit of all time. What about you, Greg? What do you think?

Dave [00:00:55]:
I

Greg [00:00:57]:
did didn't watch a lot of

Dave [00:00:59]:
Oh, he's too too chaste. You know who Futurama was. I don't watch

Greg [00:01:07]:
So no. The the truth is I I was just working too much.

Chad [00:01:12]:
Oh. Oh. Like, oh, yeah.

Dave [00:01:14]:
This is Greg at the interview. So what what are your weaknesses? I think one of my weaknesses is I work too hard. Yeah. Yeah. I I'll be I have

Chad [00:01:22]:
I have a lot of weaknesses. I work too hard. I care too much. I don't make many mistakes. It's very intimidating to my coworkers. Right. Okay.

Greg [00:01:30]:
Okay. Yeah.

Dave [00:01:33]:
Saturday night, you're kinda busy with youth activities at the time probably too or sermon prep. Did you do it that late? I gotta get this sermon prep done. I gotta preach tomorrow. Sorry, Greg. That was brutal.

Greg [00:01:48]:
Well, you know, at at that time, I you know, that just just fell under, you know, things that were not wholesome and bright and pure, so I didn't watch it then.

Dave [00:01:58]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Greg [00:02:00]:
When I was a teenager, I was too busy working to watch Saturday Night Live.

Dave [00:02:05]:
Really? Really? You were hardworking youth, weren't you?

Greg [00:02:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:02:08]:
Not me. I know. I never had to have a job until I was in my twenties.

Greg [00:02:13]:
Yeah. That's not

Dave [00:02:14]:
true. I

Greg [00:02:14]:
didn't have

Dave [00:02:15]:
rich I paid my own way too long.

Greg [00:02:16]:
Have rich parents.

Dave [00:02:17]:
Back when you could do that.

Chad [00:02:18]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:02:20]:
But I never had a job. My parents didn't want me to have a job in high school. Really? Yeah. They didn't want that for us. They wanted us to be able to focus on school. For me, that meant focusing on sports.

Chad [00:02:33]:
Given where you went to high school, I presume it's probably because, like, if you would have done a bad job, you would have had to

Dave [00:02:41]:
you know? I didn't go to high school in Japan. Oh, okay. I went there when I was 12 Okay. The last time. Nice try. Okay. I have accidentally put onions on your double cheeseburger. I will.

Dave [00:02:58]:
I will now. I will. Sacrificial suicide. Follow my secrets. Sacrificial, ceremonial suicide.

Chad [00:03:07]:
Yes. Yes.

Dave [00:03:08]:
Yes. I would ask one of you 2 to be my second to chop my head off once I stabbed. Sure.

Chad [00:03:12]:
You got it, bud. Anything for you.

Dave [00:03:15]:
It's crazy, you know? Modern cultures. You gotta love it. Wow. So what else is everybody up to? It's, it's time for end of the year meetings with athletes and students and setting goals for next year for them and their off season, getting ready for the time of the year that I'm not allowed to work with them. Oh, right. And then vision kinda casting a vision for what we can accomplish next year. And Mhmm. If they come back in shape, we can do some good things.

Dave [00:03:45]:
There you go.

Greg [00:03:46]:
So if you're not allowed to work with them until the season starts, like, how much time are you not working with them?

Dave [00:03:54]:
I'm literally not working with them. I'm Until when? Till August.

Greg [00:03:59]:
So you have some downtime until August?

Dave [00:04:01]:
Yeah. But there's there's always more I can do per so during during June July, it's heavy recruiting, and some coaches do a lot of camps. I'll do a couple of camps. Okay.

Greg [00:04:12]:
So then what else do you do? And, like, do you have

Dave [00:04:14]:
a little more free time? Yeah. You you really want me to say how much pickleball I played on you? Well, that's my that's my time for pickleball.

Chad [00:04:22]:
Okay. I thought he was angling to get you to help him clean his gutters, but

Dave [00:04:26]:
Okay. Yeah. Oh, I'm really sorry. I would help, but I'm playing pickleball.

Greg [00:04:32]:
I have gutter guards on my gutters, so I I don't need to clean them.

Dave [00:04:36]:
I thought you're gonna make that some sort of spiritual thing. Like, I've got

Greg [00:04:39]:
a gutter guard on my on my mind. So Well, that I didn't watch SNL.

Dave [00:04:43]:
That's it. Yeah. That's Such a That was my gutter guard. Good job. Yeah. That was me setting you up for the slam.

Chad [00:04:49]:
Hold on.

Dave [00:04:50]:
Yeah. Where is it? Chad bumped it to me. I sent it. You slapped it down. I didn't tell you about the president of the

Chad [00:04:58]:
Oh, yeah.

Dave [00:04:59]:
Okay. I won't repeat that story. We just need to cite which episode it was.

Greg [00:05:03]:
Yeah. Well, Dave, now the readers are wondering about the story.

Chad [00:05:06]:
Yes. And our viewers. Yes. Alright.

Dave [00:05:09]:
Now you gotta explain that.

Chad [00:05:12]:
It's a podcast. We don't have readers or viewers.

Dave [00:05:15]:
Although I call them I call them readers. Yeah. And I think you'd called them readers before.

Chad [00:05:20]:
Have I said viewers? I think you have. Well, maybe

Dave [00:05:22]:
I view about podcasts. I just stare at my phone while it's going on. You don't look away. It's very dangerous when I'm driving. I I listen to a lot of podcasts when I drive, so I'm

Chad [00:05:31]:
just looking away. The whole time?

Greg [00:05:32]:
No. He's like, this is the most boring show ever.

Dave [00:05:36]:
Wow. That screen never changes. Do you think the mouths would move at least? No. They don't. It's oh, wait. The car almost hit me. No. I know how the medium works.

Dave [00:05:49]:
I just I'm see, my brain says a lot of things that my mouth doesn't say. So Really? Hold on. Right. So in my head, I'm saying

Greg [00:06:00]:
flex, because your mouth says a lot

Dave [00:06:02]:
of things. Right. Oh, wait. Right.

Chad [00:06:04]:
My brain says a lot of Yeah.

Dave [00:06:06]:
In other words, in my head, I see it coming out this way. Okay. I could read it in the word bubble. Right. And then it comes out otherwise.

Chad [00:06:16]:
Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Dave [00:06:17]:
And then and then I just let Greg go to town like a shark on Chum. So Yeah. There are some times that I do it on purpose for him, but most of the time, it's not. So I I called our listeners, readers one time earlier tonight, Greg, right, as we're prepping for the show, and Greg enjoyed that. Had to bring it back now. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's trying to set me up for failure in the in the podcast by getting me down.

Greg [00:06:45]:
No. No. No.

Dave [00:06:49]:
I'm not gonna let you get me down, Greg. I'm a child of God.

Greg [00:06:54]:
Oh my. Positive assertion. Yeah. Yeah. You are. And he loves you.

Chad [00:07:02]:
Yes. Bless your heart. Bless my heart.

Dave [00:07:06]:
Hey. I know what that means. I know. So tonight,

Greg [00:07:10]:
what do

Dave [00:07:10]:
you think about?

Chad [00:07:11]:
Tonight. Well, actually Today,

Dave [00:07:12]:
sometime, whatever. Before we

Chad [00:07:13]:
go over there, I was about to ask if either of you had seen now I know this is a timeless episode, but have either of you seen the viral clip of mister Mark Driscoll? Yes.

Dave [00:07:25]:
We need to do a timely episode on that one.

Chad [00:07:27]:
Okay. What's your initial thoughts on that?

Dave [00:07:30]:
Just out of here. Selling books.

Chad [00:07:32]:
Yeah. Mark

Dave [00:07:33]:
I think Mark's up to his old tricks.

Chad [00:07:35]:
I think so too. At first blush, you look at it like, yeah. Way to stand up, but then you realize he's got this constellation of people around him

Dave [00:07:45]:
that Got a book coming out.

Chad [00:07:46]:
Yeah. They would have known the whole schedule of this thing. So he knew it was coming. He just waited. Oh, it's a drizzle spirit.

Dave [00:07:56]:
And that's a new term for me. Yeah. I mean, I get what he's saying.

Chad [00:08:02]:
Yeah. What do you think, Greg?

Greg [00:08:05]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:08:09]:
Well, that was the middle. Tells me what you really did.

Greg [00:08:14]:
I just don't wanna pile on. It's just he should've just stayed home in the 1st place.

Chad [00:08:21]:
Yeah. I would agree.

Dave [00:08:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. But you gotta sell those books. Yeah. Did I just say that?

Chad [00:08:28]:
You did. Actually twice now. Very worst.

Dave [00:08:31]:
It was. It's hard not to, but I'm gonna let Jesus be the judge of that, and I'm gonna stay out of it for now.

Chad [00:08:38]:
Good idea.

Dave [00:08:39]:
We do the timely episode. Yes. Yes. We're time Yeah. Yeah.

Chad [00:08:42]:
I don't know if we'll ever do a fully timely episode on it because it's it's a 5 minute outrage in the moment. Right? So it's it's gonna evaporate before you know it.

Dave [00:08:50]:
He's getting a lot of clicks from it.

Chad [00:08:52]:
Oh, yes.

Greg [00:08:53]:
They're all getting a lot of clicks, and all the podcasters talking about it are getting a lot of clicks.

Dave [00:08:57]:
And Yeah. The discernment guys are making a lot of money. Mhmm.

Chad [00:09:01]:
And we're talking about it, and we're podcasters.

Dave [00:09:04]:
Yes. But we don't make any money, so it's okay. Right. True. That's a true fact. And we're okay with that. Yes. You are.

Dave [00:09:16]:
What? You want you want to, like, stash cash in your bathroom? Is that what

Greg [00:09:19]:
it is? Yes. You

Dave [00:09:20]:
want you want 600,000 in the wall of your bathroom?

Chad [00:09:23]:
I would very much like that. Yes.

Dave [00:09:24]:
I mean, I wouldn't turn it down, but I No. I just don't wanna do it Yeah. By being bad theologically.

Chad [00:09:32]:
Absolutely.

Dave [00:09:33]:
By the way, can we can we include this one I'm about to talk about? Somebody pointed out the fact that we never in the episode that we did recently, that we recorded recently on Bible translations, we never mentioned the New King James.

Chad [00:09:48]:
We didn't mention the new King James. And I had an avid listener accost me in the hallway of our church and let me know we also missed the LSB. Oh. Oh, yeah.

Dave [00:09:59]:
Which one's that? Is that the John MacArthur version?

Chad [00:10:04]:
Standby.

Dave [00:10:06]:
The Legacy Standard Bible. That's John's personal translation.

Greg [00:10:12]:
Is it really?

Dave [00:10:13]:
I don't know. Wouldn't doubt it. He doesn't need a committee to translate. He can just do it all himself. He translates it. And correct the Greek

Chad [00:10:21]:
while he's on the way. Right.

Dave [00:10:23]:
He's like the the the King James. He can correct the original Greek manuscripts.

Chad [00:10:27]:
It is Legacy Standard Bible. You're correct.

Dave [00:10:34]:
I know you can get a John MacArthur study LSB.

Chad [00:10:42]:
It's an offshoot of the NASB according to Wikipedia. Oh, interesting. Oh, and I actually, the listener, did point this out to me. They actually do use the tetragrammatron in the old testament.

Dave [00:10:57]:
The LSP does?

Chad [00:10:58]:
Yeah. So instead of the all caps, Lord, you actually get the YHWH. In the LSB? Mhmm.

Dave [00:11:06]:
Okay. I like that. Oh,

Greg [00:11:06]:
yeah. Yeah.

Dave [00:11:07]:
I would like that.

Chad [00:11:07]:
That's kinda nice because I always you know, it's the modern Internet culture. I see the all caps, and I just feel like it's yelling at me. Lord. Lord. All caps l o r d. Yes. Every time.

Dave [00:11:24]:
I had a message one time. I'm capital L, capital O, capital R, capital D. That was how the guy did the whole and the whole sermon, he must have done that, like, a 100 times. I thought that was using the Lord's name in vain.

Chad [00:11:39]:
It was. No.

Dave [00:11:40]:
No. It wasn't. It was just Just

Chad [00:11:41]:
hearing it described, actually upsets me a little bit. But yeah. So LSB and the New King James version. Yeah.

Dave [00:11:48]:
We might have to

Chad [00:11:49]:
do a follow on to that episode or give other consideration.

Dave [00:11:54]:
Yeah. But I I don't think the purpose was to discuss it discuss every single translation, but to give basic principles on how to choose. So

Chad [00:12:03]:
We could get a lot of episodes out of that, though.

Greg [00:12:05]:
That's true. Because we didn't we didn't mention the CEV. We didn't mention the good news bible. We didn't mention I did miss misspeak at one point because I said the, NLT, and I meant to and I said the NLT was a paraphrase, and I meant to say the living bible was a paraphrase because the NLT is a dynamic equivalent. True.

Dave [00:12:26]:
That's true. It is actually now a translate a translation done by committee whereas before it was yeah. Good catch. Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. Oopsie. Oopsie.

Dave [00:12:37]:
That's okay. See, we're human people. We're forgiven, not perfect. I don't know why I thought that's so funny.

Chad [00:12:49]:
That's funny. So So tonight or today or this morning or this evening.

Dave [00:12:57]:
One of these days, we're gonna stop saying that. We've said that in every single episode, I think. Yeah.

Chad [00:13:02]:
Actually, you know what? I noticed that I think the last two episodes I said tonight and you added in.

Dave [00:13:09]:
You tripped. Yeah. You've driven

Greg [00:13:10]:
me to affected you.

Dave [00:13:11]:
Yes. Yeah.

Chad [00:13:12]:
So in this episode What

Dave [00:13:14]:
are we gonna talk about now?

Chad [00:13:16]:
Yes. During the course of this episode tonight, we're gonna talk about men walking as trees. This is Mark 822 through 26, and this is an account of Jesus healing a blind man. And it's kind of unique because you see it happen in 2 passes. Right? You see,

Greg [00:13:37]:
I see what you did there.

Dave [00:13:39]:
That's right.

Chad [00:13:40]:
You you you experience it in 2 passes. So It

Dave [00:13:44]:
what's it in 2 passes?

Chad [00:13:45]:
The miracle The miracle of have of the blind man's sight being restored. Can I get a volunteer to read? Because I'm kinda off angle here.

Dave [00:13:53]:
Sure. Give me a second.

Greg [00:13:56]:
Do you hear the sound of the pages turning?

Dave [00:13:59]:
Oh. Just because we believe in He's going all analog.

Chad [00:14:02]:
Oh, yeah.

Dave [00:14:03]:
What does analog mean? I don't know. Never mind. Mark. I'm gonna read from the Nasby, though. Sorry.

Greg [00:14:08]:
Okay. The

Dave [00:14:08]:
the Everything I read tonight 9 or the

Greg [00:14:12]:
95. 95. Okay.

Dave [00:14:14]:
And I had said that wrong, but I corrected it. At least if did you I don't know if you put in the show notes or not, but I I haven't yet. Yeah. The original NASB was 79. It wasn't 95. Right. There was a few edits that went into the 95, but, anyway okay. So Mark chapter 8 verses 22 through 26 in the New American Standard.

Dave [00:14:33]:
And they came to Bethsaida, and they brought a blind man to Jesus and implored him to touch him. Taking the blind man by the hand, he brought him out of the village, and after spitting on his eyes and laying his hands on him, he asked him, do you see anything? And he looked up and said, I see men, for I see them like trees walking around. Then again, he laid his hands on his eyes, and he looked intently and was restored and began to see everything clearly. And he sent him to his home saying, do not even enter the village.

Greg [00:15:09]:
There you go. Mhmm.

Chad [00:15:11]:
Alright. So that's the 2 phase healing. So the question emerges, why the double healing? And I've got a few theories that have been bandied about. And I'm gonna throw the most most timely one out here because I've heard this said before, and I know it's kinda gaining traction among some folks. So the first time that the guy saw men walking as trees, there are some people out there that are saying he was seeing into the spirit realm, and he was seeing, you know, demons, angels, whatever.

Dave [00:15:45]:
Like trees.

Chad [00:15:46]:
Like trees.

Dave [00:15:47]:
Maybe they were the Nephilim. Nephilim.

Chad [00:15:48]:
Maybe they're Nephilim. Yeah.

Dave [00:15:49]:
Could be. Oh.

Chad [00:15:50]:
Leftover Minoc.

Dave [00:15:51]:
Yeah. So you're saying he the theory is that he's seeing the spirit room. Right. That's really interesting. Yeah. I've not seen that before. Okay. But I have my my research on this is older research.

Dave [00:16:03]:
Right.

Chad [00:16:04]:
This is kind of a pop culture thing. It's kind of newer, but there are people in various movements that will point that will point to this and say, look, he saw into the spirit realm. These were demons and they'll point out to the fact that Jesus took him by the hand and let him out of town. So there were the disciples there, but not a lot of people around. So what was he seeing walking around his trees?

Dave [00:16:26]:
Well, he said I see men walking around his trees, but doesn't he?

Greg [00:16:31]:
He does. I think men walking as trees, like, that's a cool band name.

Chad [00:16:37]:
Yes. We should start a band. Yep. Podcast is

Dave [00:16:41]:
a I wanna play

Greg [00:16:42]:
that's it. I

Dave [00:16:43]:
wanna play the cowbells.

Greg [00:16:44]:
Deal. Men walking as trees.

Dave [00:16:49]:
The the

Greg [00:16:50]:
church worship band could, like, start their own worship band and

Chad [00:16:53]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:16:53]:
And then, like, when they when they get their CD.

Dave [00:16:56]:
They're album ready in the bookstore Yeah. After the service.

Greg [00:17:01]:
Sweet. Anyway What's happening?

Dave [00:17:04]:
I hope people got that.

Greg [00:17:06]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:17:06]:
If you don't, you'll you'll get it someday.

Chad [00:17:08]:
Yeah. You will.

Dave [00:17:09]:
So, yeah, so that's what okay. So what's another theory?

Chad [00:17:13]:
So another theory that this was a deliberate and personal event where Jesus wanted the man to experience deliberate and personal healing. He wanted he wanted to spend the extra time with him. He wanted to have this happen in 2 passes and, you know, to to kind of show him that he cared. Okay. You know, taking him by the hand and everything else.

Dave [00:17:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. So so there was one guy I met. He he actually was one of my brother's professors when he went to a different Bible college out in California Mhmm. Called the Master's College Got it. Named Bookman. Mhmm. I don't know.

Dave [00:17:50]:
I'm assuming he's still alive, although I don't know for sure, but he he actually did a I think it was a dissertation on it, and his suggestion, which I don't agree with now, but I still respect him as a great scholar, but he he thought that it was Jesus, his way of going, look. If you want me to heal you, you can't tell anybody because remember he tells him not to go back to the village. Right. And so that's his his theory was that was his way of kind of going, look. If you want the rest, you're gonna have to. Like, now go back to the village, but there's really nothing in the text that leads me to that conclusion. Yeah. I think I would and, again, it's not to disparage his scholarship.

Dave [00:18:34]:
Right. I just don't agree with that particular view. Yeah. But that's a third that we've Yeah. Come across. Yeah. So what do you think?

Chad [00:18:44]:
Me? I kind of wonder if it's not one of these other two possibilities I threw in here.

Dave [00:18:50]:
K.

Chad [00:18:51]:
Number 1, this guy, when he was brought to Jesus, he was brought by his friends, and he hadn't really expressed any faith in and of himself at that point. So the thought by some is that, you know, here's a healing. Right? And I see men walking his trees. Mhmm. At that point, he could have said, see it didn't work and left, right? But he didn't, he stayed and he let Jesus try not try, but he let Jesus complete the miracle. He let Jesus complete the healing.

Dave [00:19:26]:
So in other words, what you're saying is Jesus took him to to point 1 and go, hey. Look what I can do. Right. Now trust me, and I'll take you the rest of the way. Right. Okay.

Chad [00:19:36]:
So it's another possibility.

Dave [00:19:38]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:19:39]:
And then the 4th, and I think this is the one that I believe in the most. Although on the last one real quick, a lot of times Jesus would kind of test people's faith and say, are you saying this or are you repeating something someone else said about me? Finally, the the symbolic message idea. Right? The idea that this was a gradual restoration and it reflects the walk of a believer. It reflects how you come to faith and how you come to spiritual maturity. At first, you see men walking as trees and then you see clearly.

Dave [00:20:12]:
Well, we'll we'll save what I think for later. But yeah. Yeah. Good. What do you think, Greg?

Greg [00:20:18]:
Well, I think we just need to start going through the passage and talk about what's going on and

Dave [00:20:23]:
Let's go for it.

Greg [00:20:24]:
What each part of it means and and and start to see what's going on here.

Dave [00:20:28]:
Alright. Let's go for it. I agree. Okay. You lead up on this phase.

Greg [00:20:32]:
Oh, okay. So this is a it's a miracle that happens, but a man whose sight is restored. And this is something that's it's an incredible thing. So up until 1900, there wasn't a cure for anything.

Dave [00:20:54]:
Right. For sure.

Greg [00:20:55]:
If you were sick, lame, there was no cure for any disease. There was no antibiotic. Like, if if you were sick, you're out of luck. Yeah. There was nothing that they could do. There was, like, colds, infections. You died from them. Yeah.

Greg [00:21:17]:
Chick fucks.

Chad [00:21:19]:
Yeah. You could you could tell the veterans, and it wasn't because of the hat. It was because they were an amputee.

Greg [00:21:24]:
Right. So at the time of Jesus, people who were sick, who were lame, who were blind, who were deaf, it was a terrible lot in life. That there was no hope for you. And worse than that, they were viewed as being cursed.

Dave [00:21:42]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:21:43]:
Like, you you sinned. There there was something that was wrong with you or something that your parents did to make you this way.

Dave [00:21:51]:
Yeah. We see that throughout the year.

Greg [00:21:53]:
And and, yeah, you see that in, in this account that's in, John chapter 9. There was this blind man, and they asked who sinned, this man or his parents?

Dave [00:22:04]:
Right.

Greg [00:22:05]:
Like, that's that's just the assumption. So everybody who's walking around with who's lame or who's deaf, all the people are judging them. You're a sinner. Your parents are sinners. You're you're an outcast. You're disparaged by everyone. Mhmm. So there's this incredible, emotional, psychological horror that these people lived under.

Greg [00:22:31]:
Not just the disease itself, like you can't see, you've never been able to see, but nobody will approach you. Right. Nobody will care for you. Like, when Jesus in in, in the beatitudes says, blessed are the the poor in spirit, they have absolutely nothing. You are completely and utterly dependent on the benevolence of others because people are gonna walk across the street when they see you. Yeah. Okay. So that's the situation of this blind person.

Greg [00:23:01]:
There is absolutely no hope. And over and over again, you see when Jesus healed these people, what is what is one of the common things that he does?

Dave [00:23:12]:
He touches them.

Greg [00:23:13]:
He touches them. So there's this element of compassion right away. Nobody else would go near them Yeah. And Jesus touches them. And the second thing is the miracle of restoring sight because that didn't happen. Right. Like, to be blind and then you can see again. And as as the this unfolds, as we start to look at this passage, like, the sight is restored completely to perfection.

Greg [00:23:44]:
Yeah. It's not like, when when when you see faith healers today, it's like this person gets a little bit healed or or partially healed or a little bit bad. No. Jesus's healings were absolute creation events, like making limbs whole again Yeah. Making eyes new again, making ears new again. When you think about the things that might make somebody so they can't see, like, they're born that way because of because of birth defect, because of gonorrhea, because of whatever it may be. And their eyes, because of a retinal detachment, because of an injury, because of trauma, and Jesus makes their eyes whole again. Like, this is this is a creative act.

Greg [00:24:37]:
Mhmm. It's an incredible miracle.

Dave [00:24:40]:
Let let me say something real quick here. Have you guys ever seen somebody who who is lame? Like, somebody who cannot use their legs? Their their legs are like they're like 2 inches in diameter. They're they've got no musculature, and you you don't see that in the modern healing movement. You don't see people go from 0 musculature on their legs to be able to jump up and dance around. Yeah. Because now they have the the the necessary musculature and ligaments and strength to be able to just stand up and walk because you just you're physically you atrophy.

Chad [00:25:17]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:25:17]:
So I just wanted to

Greg [00:25:18]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:25:19]:
Throw that in there to support your point there.

Greg [00:25:21]:
It's just an incredible miracle Mhmm. To see someone's eyes restored, and that's what happens. So you think of John the Baptist, and John the Baptist's mission was to prepare the way of the Lord, that there's this promised messiah who's coming, and it's John's, job to prepare the way. And John the Baptist is in he's been arrested, and he's imprisoned at the time. And in Matthew, I'm trying to open my Bible on my phone and this microphone's in my face and my face ID is not working to unlock it. So in Matthew chapter, 11 starting in verse 2, now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ. So John's hearing about Jesus going about the countryside, and he's doing these miracles and wonders and healing people and teaching with authority and all these things. He sends sent word by his disciples, and he said to him, are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another? So John sends his disciples out to ask Jesus, are you the one, this the promised one, the one that's been foretold of, the one that we've been longing for, the one that we've been waiting for, are you him, or do we keep looking? And Jesus answered them, go and tell John what you hear and see.

Greg [00:26:49]:
And and this is amazing. John Jesus doesn't say that I'm the one that Isaiah prophesied about. He doesn't say I'm the one that God promised. He says in verse 5, the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, leopards are lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up. They Jesus tells them, I'm restoring people. I am healing. The blind are made to see because these are incredible miracles that only what Jesus does here is an incredible display of compassion and an incredible display of divine power that we don't wanna miss in this account. Yeah.

Greg [00:27:38]:
So now, Dave, do you wanna jump in?

Dave [00:27:41]:
I'm not sure I'm ready yet. This is good. You're you're doing

Greg [00:27:43]:
so well. I want you to jump in now.

Dave [00:27:45]:
I'm just really struggling with this bible. Okay. This microphone is so big.

Greg [00:27:49]:
Last week, he was struggling with the one button on his iPad. Right. Now he's got this 14 pound NASB 19.95 It's

Dave [00:27:57]:
It's a gift from Bible. One of our listeners. A gift from one of our listeners.

Greg [00:28:01]:
Oh, cool.

Dave [00:28:02]:
Yeah. It literally is. Although it was before he was a listener, but, anyway

Greg [00:28:06]:
Okay.

Dave [00:28:07]:
Yeah. Not a reader, a listener. Are are we ready to move to the because I'm happy to do that, but I if you wanna No. We well, let's let's talk about then, okay, how do you apply this text right now as as this text alone, not in terms of its con how it fits into the context, but, like, so you're you're doing a Bible lesson on this, Greg, and you you're now at the point where you need to quote land the plane or you need to take this home. What what are you gonna talk to your audience about in terms of application? Well, I

Greg [00:28:41]:
think you need to, like, you need to talk about where he's been. Like, this has been a pattern that he's been going about. Mhmm. He's been healing people. He's been doing miracles. And all this is to demonstrate that he has he has divine power. Only God only God has control over, demons. Only God has control over creation.

Greg [00:29:04]:
Only God has control a power over sin. Only only God could be doing all of these things. And he's demonstrating this over and over and over and over again. And that's what's gonna happen is he takes this blind man by the hand, leads him out of the village, and, he spits on his hands and lays hands on him and then says, do you see anything? And this is where it gets kinda weird. It's like, did Jesus not have enough power? Like, what's what's going on here? You know? How come you know, people might wonder, how come Jesus didn't get it right the first time? Right. Why does it take 2 steps to do it? And, obviously that's there for a reason. It's to make you wonder why is this why is this taking 2 steps. Mhmm.

Greg [00:29:54]:
But then Jesus lays his hands on his eyes again, and he opens his eyes, and his sights sights restored, and he saw everything clearly, and he sent them to his home saying do not even enter the village. And when you read that verse, verse 25, the thing you see there is that he over and over again, he sees his eyes. He sees his eyes. He sees clearly. And in the Greek, there's a whole bunch of words for eyes. They're different words that are used. And there's different words for see, and it's almost like this redundancy and it's, like, overemphasizing, but it's like he can see perfectly. He can see near.

Greg [00:30:39]:
He can see far. And it's just this this completion of his vision showing absolutely perfectly holy that his sight has been restored so that we can see how complete this miracle is that that he, has had his vision restored.

Dave [00:30:59]:
Yeah. I really like how you frame that. And I think one of the things that is hard for for readers sometimes of the gospels is that the gospels are story or narrative. Right? Use a technical term.

Greg [00:31:13]:
It is very narrative y, isn't it?

Dave [00:31:15]:
It is. Quite. Narrative ish. Narrative ish. So part of why I think Americans like the epistles so much is that we like we're very kind of rational and logical and philosophical, and so we like to be told what we need to think. Right. And so we need like, and and convinced, which Paul and Peter do a good job of, and that's how epistles work. They tell you what to think and persuade you.

Dave [00:31:43]:
Whereas stories or narrative don't tell you what to think, but they lead you to draw a conclusion through the use of the story. Right? But they don't tell you. They show you. Right. There's all sorts of techniques they use to do that. So most New Testament scholars would, and frankly, Old Testament scholars too, would agree that gospel narratives function on two levels. So to to kind of get at this, if we can kind of draw back a little bit and talk about Old Testament and New Testament stories a little bit, Let let's do that. So why why are we told that we have 4 different gospel accounts? Why don't we just have 1 gospel?

Chad [00:32:24]:
Right.

Dave [00:32:25]:
So and what from your experience, what have you guys heard people say when when that question gets asked or or when somebody asks, hey.

Greg [00:32:34]:
Why are there 4 gospels instead of 1? It's the perspective from which they're writing. Okay. Like Matthew's writing about Jesus as king. Okay. And

Dave [00:32:44]:
Yeah. So there's different themes. Right? Right. Different things. Each

Greg [00:32:47]:
Jesus is the servant. Jesus as man. Jesus says God.

Dave [00:32:53]:
And I I think I think those can be slightly oversimplified sometimes, but I I think generally that's the truth. Right? So Matthew is proving that Jesus is the promised son of David, the king, the Messiah. Mark seems to have a slightly different emphasis. They're all true, but they're they're bringing out different aspects. And so one of the things that's very popular to do is to do this harmony of the gospels, and that's what what they're trying to do when they do a harmony of the gospels is to try to completely bring all the accounts together and make a 5th gospel

Greg [00:33:33]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:33:33]:
That brings all the details together. And insofar as maybe apologetics, that's good, but really probably what we ought to be doing is going, why does this gospel use this story here and not there, or why is it emphasizing different facts within a story?

Greg [00:33:51]:
Right. It's like a harmony is trying to reconcile the differences. Mhmm. Whereas the differences are there for a reason. For a purpose. Yeah.

Dave [00:33:59]:
You a 100% agree.

Chad [00:34:00]:
Yeah. Exactly. And that's the perspective I've heard too is that it's you're you're you're getting different different perspectives from different people's life experiences. You know, Luke the doctor, Mark, of course, really Peter, you know, in his in his experience and everything else. So yeah.

Dave [00:34:16]:
Yeah. So what what's what's so I think there's 2 if you're thinking about looking at biblical narratives, there's 2 basic operating principles that that we wanna think about. You wanna think about our selection. So why does a story exist in this gospel? So I don't know how much if you tried to find the other parallels, but this is fairly unique story. Right? You don't this is a the reason why it's so controversial not really controversial, but the the reasons there's so many questions about it is, well, why does Jesus does Jesus have to do it? Does this Jesus need to do it? Is it the problem with the faith of the of the blind man? Why why why why why why? And that tells you that there's a reason why Mark, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, selected this particular narrative to put. So that's selectivity or selection. And then the other question is arrangement. Right.

Dave [00:35:16]:
Why does Mark put it here? Right? Why does Mark put it here? So if if you guys will put up with me, let's think about

Greg [00:35:25]:
yeah. We put up with you all the time,

Dave [00:35:27]:
David. Okay. I set you guys out there. Alright. Good. So so hopefully our readers will be familiar with this.

Greg [00:35:36]:
Readers. He did it again. Readers. Let's let's let's

Dave [00:35:39]:
let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's So, hopefully, our listeners will be familiar a little bit with Genesis. If not, we'd encourage them to let listeners to read Genesis 23 on your own sometime.

Greg [00:35:56]:
All these words, they're so hard to keep in order.

Dave [00:36:00]:
So, look, I'm gonna use Genesis because it's usually fairly familiar. And so if you think about the book of Genesis, it has a couple of really unusual stories. And, so Genesis 23 is this really strange story of Abraham buying a burial plot for his wife, and it it's it's kinda sitting in there, and it's so weird. It's it's such a strange it doesn't seem to fit that a lot of, you know, a 100 years ago, liberal writers were like, well, this was added later, and we don't know why it's here, and it doesn't really belong, and somebody splotched it in. And they come up with all these weird theories as to why it's there. So the question then becomes, well, okay. So it's inspired by God. It's in the text.

Dave [00:36:51]:
So what's the significance of it? So in order to in order to understand what the story of Abraham buying a burial plot, we have to kinda think through what's been going on in Genesis so far. So if we start sorry. I'm gonna do the, like, big blowback here. So all the way back to Genesis 3, you have this this prophecy, this great prophecy saying the seed of the woman is gonna overcome the the curse. He's gonna crush the head of the serpent. Serpent's gonna bruise his heel. He's gonna crush the head. And you have this theme of seed.

Dave [00:37:23]:
Right? That the seed of the woman is gonna come down, and God's gonna restore Eden through this seed, which we eventually realize is Jesus. Right? Right. So then that comes along, you have the flood, and we talked a little bit about Genesis 6 recently. But, then you come to Genesis chapter 12 and 15, and you have probably the biggest pivot point in in in human history. And that's where God says I'm going to bless the world through Abraham. So the seed of the woman is gonna come through the line of Abraham, and Abraham is promised 3 things, LSB, land, seed, and blessing. And so seed is offspring. Land is exactly that.

Dave [00:38:08]:
It's land. Right? And then blessing is just what we think. It's God's blessing. Right? And and so throughout basically from Genesis 12 through 22, the big question in Abraham's life is what? Am I going to have an offspring? Right? Think of think of how many years it takes for for Sarah before Sarah conceives, and think of how many things he goes through, and think of the story of Ishmael. Why why was Ishmael born? Because Abraham was afraid that he wasn't gonna have seed, that God wasn't gonna maybe God was gonna do it through his, handmaiden, his wife's handmaiden instead of through Sarah. Sarah is the one that was promised to be the the the carrier of of the seed of Abraham. And so you finally have Isaac, and then what happens in Genesis 22? It's probably maybe, you know, one of the top 5 old testament passages ever. That happens in Genesis 22.

Dave [00:39:16]:
It's called the Akkadah by the Jewish people. It is the sacrifice of Isaac. So you have this really weird thing where all of a sudden after I forget how many years exactly, but it's decades, right, where where Abraham or Abraham slash Abraham doesn't have a seed, doesn't have a child, doesn't have an offspring. And then all of a sudden, at the at very, very late in his life, he receives his child, and then what happens? God says go sacrifice him. Right? He's gonna and he takes him up to what eventually is gonna be Jerusalem, and he Abraham has so much faith that we hear from Hebrews that he was going to sacrifice the son knowing that God would resurrect him. He had that much faith in God that that was gonna be the child of the seed of promise, the child of promise. And in Genesis 22, we have now settled it. Seed has been settled.

Dave [00:40:14]:
And right after that, what do you have? You have the story of Abraham buying property. So what does that tell you about land, seed, and blessing? God's fulfilled the the the seed promise. Right. He's been blessed the whole time. What hasn't he done yet? Abraham doesn't have land. The land. Right? Yeah. He sold land poor that he has to go negotiate with the elders at the city gate to purchase land.

Dave [00:40:50]:
Now there's some really interesting things in there about how you how they haggle.

Greg [00:40:55]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:40:55]:
Oh, you know, I would never you can have it. No. And then they throw out a price, and then they they negotiate. It's a really interesting it's a really interesting picture of ancient years negotiation. But the the I would suggest that I'm not the only one, that the whole point of Genesis 23 is, look, he's received lamb blessing. Excuse me, he's received seed blessing, he's received blessing, he has not received land yet, and Abraham's not going to see land until he's resurrected.

Greg [00:41:23]:
Right.

Dave [00:41:24]:
He's never going to because, I mean, basically it's Egypt to Iran is the where the promised land to Abraham was. Right? And David has it for a little while, but he's promised that forever. So why do I say that? Well, that's an illustration of how narrative shows. It doesn't tell. Now if that was an epistle, it would have been alright. Up till now, Abraham got land. I mean, excuse me. I keep saying that.

Dave [00:41:53]:
Up till now, Abraham has been worried about seed, and he got it finally. But guess what? He's gonna die without receiving land, so that's gonna come in the future. But in narrative, they just show you what he has to do in an almost like a negative. Right? Like a like the the arrow in FedEx, you kinda see that, well, he's buying land. So what about this land promise? And God has yet to fulfill that. And so that that arrangement and selectivity is how narrative works. So so the Markin sandwich Yeah. Tastes really good.

Dave [00:42:31]:
It's like a Tastes really good. Yeah. I was

Chad [00:42:33]:
gonna say.

Greg [00:42:34]:
Yeah. So Mark has this way of, oh, I can't remember how many times. How many are there?

Dave [00:42:39]:
So I I think there's more than than what James, Edwards describes, but he mentions, I think, 9 in there.

Greg [00:42:46]:
Yeah. So Mark has this way of of listing things out, like, having accounts and, like, between, like, story a and story b, he'll put this obscure thing right between them that seems to not have anything to do with a and b. But that thing that's in the middle is very important having to do with a and b. And and this story about Jesus healing or restoring the sight to this blind man is the peanut butter and jelly in this bargain sandwich here.

Dave [00:43:27]:
Nice.

Greg [00:43:27]:
Because what you have here is Jesus has been out in the, Galilean area, and he has been healing people, and he's been doing miracles, turn feeding people with the the bread and the fish and restoring sight and restoring hearing healing, hearing and all of these things.

Dave [00:43:52]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:43:53]:
And then there there comes this one miracle, and the the blind man sees men walking as trees, and then there's going to come another account. And this story right here is the middle of the sandwich that is a a huge pivot in the account of Mark. It's like a it it's the the hinge in the door that's swinging. It's a big swing in the story, and it's really important to see that. Because up until now, Jesus has been doing this very public ministry demonstrating who he is with the disciples. And after this, his ministry is going to change. It's not going to be public anymore. It's going to be just with the disciples preparing the disciples for what is going to come.

Greg [00:44:48]:
And do we wanna get into specifically what that is?

Dave [00:44:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. If you don't mind, I'd love to

Greg [00:44:54]:
jump in

Dave [00:44:54]:
on that. Yeah. Or you, go ahead. I would love to

Greg [00:44:57]:
jump in on that. Yeah.

Dave [00:44:59]:
Well, first of all, what's what's what's what's the immediate What are the 2 stories the 2 immediate stories that it that it breaks up?

Greg [00:45:08]:
But you haven't pulled up because I had something else pulled up.

Dave [00:45:10]:
Oh, okay.

Greg [00:45:11]:
No. I I I just wanted to read one thing real quick. Yeah. Just about people being healed who are blind. Okay. Because in John 9, I just wanted to read this. When I talked before about people who who had a a disease, an illness, and it was assumed that they were sinners, and there was this blind man that Jesus heals, and people were after he was healed, the people were questioning him. And in verse 25, this man who had his sight restored, he says this, one thing I do know that though I was blind, I now see.

Greg [00:45:49]:
They're asking him all these questions about Jesus, and all he can say is the one thing I know, I can now see. And the great implication is there is that only someone with the power of god could do this. Mhmm. That's that's the one thing that he is saying. I was blind. Now I can see. Yeah. Only one person can do that.

Greg [00:46:08]:
That's what it's screaming out.

Dave [00:46:10]:
That's good.

Greg [00:46:11]:
So the, yeah, let's read the story that happens before the peanut butter and jelly and then the story that happens after the peanut butter and jelly.

Dave [00:46:19]:
And if you'll if you'll indulge me, let me talk about after first, and then we can go back and do the before.

Greg [00:46:24]:
I guess we can do it that way.

Dave [00:46:25]:
So right what's significant is directly after the healing in 2 stages, we see Peter, Jesus immediately after this in verse 27, Jesus went out along with his disciples to the village of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way, he questioned his disciples saying to them, who do people say that I am? And they told him saying, John the Baptist, and others say Elijah, and others one of the prophets. And he continued by questioning him, but who do you say that I am? Peter answered and said to him, you are the Christ, and he warned them not to tell excuse me, and he warned them to tell no one about him. Right after the story of 2 phased healing, we have Peter's confession of who Jesus is. Now the question right before the 2 faced healing is the following, and he was saying to them, this is verse 21, do you not yet understand? Right? And that's in response. That's in response to a whole series of events of them not understanding who Jesus is. So this goes all the way back early into the book and actually traces all the way forward. And so if you'll indulge me, let's work through some of those.

Dave [00:47:51]:
It deals with the parables of the mysteries of the kingdom. It deals with the healing of the the feeding of the 5,000. It deals with the crossing over the Sea of Galilee. Yeah. It deals with the feeding of the 4000, deals with the crossing of the Sea of Galilee, and it all revolves around bread, seeing, understanding. And so then it then I think it culminates in what we see in the confession of Peter. So, and if you wanna jump in on any of these, Greg, jump in. This is just, I'll get excited and just do it all if you let me.

Dave [00:48:24]:
So, so back in so back all the way back in Mark chapter 3, you have Jesus healing on the Sabbath and he says people are asking him whether it's lawful for him to heal on the Sabbath, whether it's lawful for him to heal on the Sabbath, and he says this, he says verse chapter 3 verse 5 after looking at them with anger grieved at their hardness of heart he said to them stretch out your hand and he stretched out his hand and it was restored. And so you have this statement about the Pharisees now their hardness of heart. Now if you track a little bit later, we have the mysteries of the kingdom, and this is a famous series of parables. Mark has a slightly shorter version of it, but, but Jesus says he's going to speak in parables, and parables have 2 functions. They hide truth and they reveal truth. Right? And so he basically, and this is a phrase you probably are used to hearing in the gospels, but he says in chapter, let's see, chapter 4. In chapter 4 verse 9, he says, and he was saying, he who has ears to hear, let him hear. As soon as he was alone, his followers along with the 12 began asking him about the parables.

Dave [00:49:58]:
And he was saying to them, to you it has been given the mysteries of the kingdom, but those who are outside are getting everything in parables. And then he quotes an old testament passage and says this, so that while seeing, they may not they may see and not understand, and while hearing, they may hear and not perceive. Otherwise, they might return and be forgiven.

Greg [00:50:23]:
And that's Isaiah 6:9 and 10.

Dave [00:50:26]:
Yeah, right, and so you have this really strange passage where he's saying the disciples, look, I'm telling you, I'm speaking to you in parables because I'm hiding this truth from some people, but I'm revealing it to you. And the terminology he uses is seeing and hearing, and you can see it, but you're not gonna understand. So seeing, you can see and not perceive it. Hearing, you're gonna hear and not understand is the exact wording. So right after that, they cross the Sea of Galilee, which has happened a lot in Mark. Yeah. And Jesus stills this is one of the many times that Jesus stills the sea. Mhmm.

Dave [00:51:12]:
And in chapter at the very end of chapter 4 and verse 40 says this, why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith? And they became very afraid and said to one another, who then is this that even the wind and the sea obey him? So, here are the disciples. They've been called. They're following Jesus, and He does this miracle, and what is their response? We're going to worship the Messiah because He's Son of God. No.

Chad [00:51:40]:
Right. It's who.

Dave [00:51:41]:
Yeah. Who is this? Who is this guy? Yeah. Like, there's something special about him, but they clearly don't get it yet.

Chad [00:51:46]:
Right.

Dave [00:51:47]:
They clearly don't understand it yet. So then you go a couple more chapters, and you've got the feeding of the 5,000. And at the feeding of the 5,000, one of the main features of the feeding of the 5,000 is bread. Right? And, of course, the loaves and the fishes. So then, again, you have a feeding of 5,000 in chapter 6, and then immediately he walks across on the water again. And, again, this time they see him, and they think he's a ghost, and they cry out. Right? And look what he says though because he's shocked. They're shocked that it's Jesus.

Dave [00:52:26]:
And in verse 52 of chapter 6, he says this, for they had not gained any insight from the incident of the loaves, but their heart was hardened.

Greg [00:52:37]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Dave [00:52:38]:
So right now they're still they don't know who he is. They don't understand. They're following him. They don't but they don't get it yet. Yeah. They don't get it yet. And then again, you have, in chapter 7, there's an account of their crossing on the Sabbath, and they break some grain up, and they eat it with unwashed hands, and the Pharisees say, right, that this is not appropriate. And Jesus says this.

Dave [00:53:07]:
He says, are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from the outside cannot defile him? So you have this thing about Jesus saying, do you not understand? Do you not have insight here? Alright. Then you have the feeding of the 4,000, and Mark offers both feedings. There's a feeding of the 5,000. There's a feeding of the 4,000, and it has very similar thing. It's bread, given bread, right? And when they leave to cross the Sea of Galilee, this time says something interesting in verse 14 of chapter 8, and they had forgotten to take bread and did not have more than one loaf in the boat with them. So here you have all this leftover bread, and they didn't bring any with them. Right? Now but here here's what's interesting about that. Basically, he starts talking to them in the boat, and he says, beware the leaven of the Pharisees, which is beware the teaching of the Pharisees, and they start talking about bread.

Dave [00:54:04]:
So here's Jesus having a spiritual conversation with them. Yeah. And they start talking about literal bread now.

Greg [00:54:11]:
Right.

Dave [00:54:11]:
Right? And they're like, oh, we only brought one loaf. Well, how stupid of us. Now we're going to go hungry. Who gets the loaf? Whatever, right? And so then Jesus basically is aware of their conversations among themselves, and he challenges them, and he says this, do you not yet see or understand? You see the callback to that passage from earlier? Do you have a hardened heart? Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear, and do you not remember? And then he talks about, do you not remember when I broke up the 5 loaves? We had 12 leftover. Right? So here they are having all of these experiences with God, with Jesus, who is God, who's giving them bread, teaching them, giving them spiritual insight, but they're blind right now. And then you could literally take 22 to 26 out and it would make total sense for Jesus to question them about who do people say that I am? And you would see, oh, I've got some insight because Peter confesses Jesus, but instead he inserts, Mark inserts this Mark and sandwich, this story that I think is supposed to give us insight into the disciples, and Jesus is actually healing the disciples or giving them sight in stages. Mhmm. So I think there's I think there's 2 levels of meaning to the to the healing in stages.

Dave [00:55:44]:
I think that's why God chose to do that in 2 stages so that Mark could eventually put that into this text. And I think it's true that he's dealing with that person, but he's also using that as a parable and wants us to go, oh, that's what Jesus is doing. All of these experiences that Jesus is taking his disciples through regarding bread and crossing the sea and all that turmoil they're having to go through and the fear they're having to go through and the hunger that they're having to go through and the consternation they're having to go through is part of Jesus healing them in stages or healing their eyes in stages and leading them to the point where in chapter 8 verses 27 and then down Peter can go, oh, you were the Messiah. You're the Son of the Living God. Right? And I think that's the second level at which this one functions. And I I think there's some really interesting God's working in people's lives in kind of sterile terms. God's working in people's lives in kind of sterile terms. Well, somebody got saved, and they and and we all probably know somebody that hears the message of Jesus once and they just completely turn their lives over to him.

Dave [00:56:58]:
And then we have other people like me or others for whom God used years of going through a process and sometimes even rebellion and sometimes even suffering to get them to come to the point where their eyes are open and they see. Right? And I think it's a real, exciting way to see how God works in people's lives, that he actually takes us through long term experiences to grow us into conforming us into the image of the Son. And it's encouragement for those of us who are working with people, and we're we're seeing either ourselves, we're the problem too sometimes, or we're seeing other people take longer than maybe we would want, but God still has them in process. So that's one thing I take away from this one.

Greg [00:57:48]:
Yeah. I I when you read this account of the of Jesus making this blind man to see, and he spit on his his eyes and laid his hands on him and says, do you see anything? And the blind man looks up, and he said, I see people, but they look like trees walking. Mhmm. Okay? And then you look at the next passage, and and he asked Peter, who do people say that I am? And Peter says, they say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others say the prophets. Okay? Up until then, Jesus, when he's walking on water, when he's feeding the 5,000, when he's feeding the 4,000, The disciples are are looking at all of this, and they're thinking, yeah, maybe he's John the Baptist. Maybe he's Elijah. Maybe he's this. He's just like the blind man who's having his sight partially restored, and the disciples are seeing men walking like trees.

Greg [00:58:56]:
They're seeing Jesus in part, but not yet fully. And then at this full healing, when Jesus when Jesus, lays hands on him a second time. This is a picture of Jesus making this conversion in the the disciples full, and and Peter then having this full confession that, oh, you are the Christ. You are the one that John the Baptist was preparing the way for. So so, like, as a believer now, when when we when we're thinking about unbelievers, and sometimes we think, why don't they get it? Like, they're so smart, and we've laid it out for them. Why don't they get it? It's because they're blind.

Dave [00:59:48]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:59:48]:
And we're standing on the other side of the cross. See, what Jesus is gonna do now with the disciples, he's he's he's gonna go into private resurrection.

Dave [01:00:04]:
Yeah.

Greg [01:00:05]:
And he's constantly going to be talking about his coming death. And what's interesting is that this that this healing of the blind man in 2 stages is while they've had their sight restored that they could see that he is the Christ, there's still a restoration that needs to happen. Yeah. They've accepted that he's the Christ, that he's the one to come, but they still can't see the death and resurrection yet. When he talks about his death, they they're like, what?

Dave [01:00:36]:
Like They try to fight him on it.

Greg [01:00:39]:
Yeah. They try to fight him on it. Yeah.

Dave [01:00:41]:
No. You're not. Oh, no. You don't. Yeah.

Greg [01:00:43]:
Yeah. And it's not until they see the risen Lord that that it's all fully makes sense to him again. And and that's where we are now. We're on the other side of the cross, and and we can see everything clearly. And it's important for us to remember that when we're talking to unbelievers, when we're talking to people, because we have a picture that they can't see. Sometimes when people when I'm sharing the gospel, talking to a nonbeliever, and they say, you you can't prove God, and I and I'm I can lay everything out logically. I can lay everything out scripturally. What I can't lay out for them is this assurance that God has given me, that God testifies in my heart, that I have this this assurance that is so certain that nobody can take away from me.

Greg [01:01:46]:
Can't explain it to them. Yeah. God has removed the scales from the my eyes. There is nothing I can do to explain that to them, and there is nothing that they can do to convince me otherwise, because because he has laid hands on me and made me to see clearly. And I'm not just seeing men walking like trees. I see it clearly now.

Dave [01:02:10]:
Good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And, also, I I I think the go ahead.

Greg [01:02:15]:
I would just love to go back through all the episodes one day and, like, every time he says good stuff, if we could, like, get a, like, a quarter in a jar or something Yep. You know.

Chad [01:02:25]:
Or maybe we'll just do a super cut of

Dave [01:02:26]:
good stuff, good stuff, good stuff, good

Chad [01:02:28]:
stuff, good stuff, good stuff,

Greg [01:02:29]:
It'd be great. Maybe.

Dave [01:02:31]:
It's like bad stuff.

Greg [01:02:32]:
That'd be good that'd be good stuff.

Chad [01:02:34]:
It's all good stuff, man. Like, the the men walking history is the 2 stage healing. Would you say that this is like you would draw a correlation to someone who is a new believer before they like kind of mature in the faith or is it more so like someone who is being drawn and then or maybe not even being drawn but hearing the gospel and they're blind. And then they, you know, they they see Christ. They accept Christ. And then

Dave [01:03:00]:
That's the drawing process. Personally. I think that's the drawing process. Okay. And I think I think what Greg was talking about with alright. Now after the confession, they still had some growing to do.

Greg [01:03:14]:
Yeah.

Dave [01:03:14]:
Right? Because it's one thing to to have turned your life over to Christ. It's another thing to realize all the implications of that. Yeah. Yeah. The the kinds of things that you're gonna no longer be a part of, the kinds of Right. Right. The kinds of things that you're gonna reject and to quote unquote truths that the world teaches that you're gonna say, no. I don't believe that anymore.

Dave [01:03:38]:
Yeah. And so I think there's that process of growth that happens, but I think the the men seeing men as trees is part of the conversion process with the confession coming after God fully opened their eyes. Yeah. Gives us the eyes to see. Yeah. Right? I know I had a friend who did a message on on evangelism and it was something like pray that you'll you'll open your mouth that there Oh, God would open their eyes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave [01:04:10]:
Go ahead. You say it. Whoever this friend was. Whoever this friend was. Yeah. No. He was the one who said it.

Greg [01:04:16]:
That God would, soften their heart, that God would open their eyes And God will

Dave [01:04:19]:
open their eyes.

Greg [01:04:19]:
And that God would open our mouths.

Dave [01:04:21]:
Yeah. Mhmm. I like that.

Greg [01:04:23]:
Because God needs to, you know, soften their heart, convict their heart. God needs to open their eyes so that they could see, and then God needs to open our mouths so that we'll speak. Right. Because we can do a whole lot of praying, but we might be the one that God has put in their life to speak the truth.

Chad [01:04:39]:
That's right.

Dave [01:04:40]:
And that's cool. That gives us patience that we could be a part of that. In the words of Paul, we might sow, we might reap. Yeah. We might do all of it, but Mhmm. We get to be patient with people as we work through and as God works in their lives, and we gotta be a part of that process. So

Chad [01:04:57]:
yeah the

Dave [01:04:57]:
other thing that's the thing that's fascinating is I don't like I I think all 3 of us are fairly strong in God's sovereignty and salvation. Yes. But what is fascinating about this here is that that that is the process but God never seems to work against their human free will either in the process I don't know if I'll ever be able to explain that how those two things work together but God brings them to the point where they see Yeah. He opens their eyes, but they see, and they they turn their lives over to Christ. And there's a there's an offer, there's an acceptance, there's a free will aspect to that, then God doesn't violate their free will in that process. Yeah. Yeah. Don't ask me to dot the dot the i's or cross the t's on that.

Chad [01:05:41]:
Yeah. And that

Dave [01:05:42]:
In terms of explaining it.

Chad [01:05:43]:
Yeah. At some point, we will have to do an episode on free will versus, god's sovereignty or free will and how it works with god's sovereignty, because, yeah, it's a bit of a quantum flux kind of thing going on. So

Dave [01:05:58]:
Like dancing strings.

Chad [01:05:59]:
Yes. But no. I gotta tell you, I have not heard of the Merkin sandwich before, but that is a really, really, really useful illustration for me. And I think I shared on this podcast before that the book of Mark was the first book of the bible that I read as I was being drawn. Yeah. It answered a lot of questions for me, but I think I have to do a power reread of it now and and kind of look at it, a new from from that way because yeah. It it's kinda neat how you kinda laid it out in this little this little miracle, which just kinda blends in with the others. It really is, would you say, Greg, the hinge that the whole book swings on.

Greg [01:06:45]:
Mhmm. So Yeah.

Dave [01:06:46]:
Yeah. If you want to, there's a there's an article that I that we could even publish in the or put in the Sure. The show notes. Yeah. I think it's Edwards. James Edwards. I think he is. I wrote Mark and Sandwiches.

Dave [01:06:58]:
And if anybody is interested in old testament narrative as well Mhmm. There's a great book called the Art of Biblical Narrative by Robert Alter. He's not a Christian. He's a Jewish scholar who studies old testament narratives, but he does an incredible job of going through the book of Genesis and pointing out how the stories work together, And there's a there's a chapter in the Bible that most people haven't read that functions kinda like a Markan sandwich, but it would be a Genesis sandwich. Okay.

Chad [01:07:27]:
And

Dave [01:07:28]:
that's Genesis 38. And hopefully, maybe we'll talk about that sometime because it's a strange passage where I used to summarize it for my 1st year bible study students this way. A daughter-in-law dresses up like a prostitute, sleeps with her father-in-law, get to marry gets pregnant, and the father-in-law says, you're more righteous than I. Now explain that one.

Chad [01:07:54]:
Yeah.

Dave [01:07:55]:
And it's an inspired chapter in the Bible, Yeah. So it's it's worth looking at. So someday maybe we'll get a chance to look at that.

Chad [01:08:02]:
Someday. Catfish. Sooner than later. Catfish. We're curious. Yeah. Catfish after hours.

Dave [01:08:09]:
No. That's great. That's awesome. Can we put that can somebody please write in and say you wanna get that sooner than later? Yeah. I'm begging I'm begging anybody to do that because I want that to go to the top of the list because I'm dying to talk about Genesis 38.

Chad [01:08:26]:
We know you are.

Dave [01:08:27]:
I know. Chad wants to boycott it. But

Chad [01:08:29]:
I'm I'm not boycotting. Okay.

Dave [01:08:32]:
You just a little nervous?

Chad [01:08:33]:
I think you have. We'll get

Dave [01:08:34]:
to that someday.

Chad [01:08:34]:
We will. We will.

Dave [01:08:36]:
We know you're curious, everybody. That's right. So write in make this a write in campaign for Genesis 38. 1st, read it though first before you do because

Chad [01:08:44]:
Well, you know I'm not

Dave [01:08:45]:
sure you want to afterwards. Yeah.

Chad [01:08:47]:
Well, yeah, definitely read it in advance without any children in the room, but I I really pretty much any reading from Genesis is good because there's answers in Genesis.

Dave [01:09:05]:
Yeah. Somebody knows somebody that works there.

Chad [01:09:08]:
Yes. They do.

Greg [01:09:09]:
So I really appreciated John MacArthur's prayer at the end of his message on this text. So thinking of Jesus healing this blind man, and he goes from being blind to seeing partially to seeing fully. And the disciples have gone from being blind to seeing partially to seeing fully. And each one of us has gone gone that route. And and John McCarthy just prayed, for people to go from not understanding to misunderstanding to perfect understanding. And that process of salvation and what God does in our lives, what God does in our hearts, that we would go from not understanding to misunderstanding, to a perfect understanding of who this Christ is. That's cool. Yeah.

Greg [01:10:02]:
You not gonna say good stuff?

Dave [01:10:04]:
Nope. I like to say.

Greg [01:10:05]:
Yeah. What what

Chad [01:10:06]:
aren't you gonna say?

Greg [01:10:08]:
You're not gonna say good stuff?

Dave [01:10:09]:
I've I've been trained not to do what you guys say. I know I know now. I know better.

Greg [01:10:15]:
Oh. You see clearly now?

Dave [01:10:16]:
I see very clearly now.

Greg [01:10:18]:
The rain is gone. Perfect understanding?

Dave [01:10:22]:
Yep. Okay.

Chad [01:10:24]:
Alright. I'm gonna

Greg [01:10:24]:
do that.

Dave [01:10:25]:
I can't help myself. Okay. That's good stuff.

Greg [01:10:28]:
Yes. That's good stuff. Okay.

Dave [01:10:31]:
Okay. It's like the stuff in the Oreos.

Greg [01:10:34]:
Yeah. You could've used Oreo for the Markin's Markin's sandwich. Markin Oreo. Okay. Then this happens We start.

Dave [01:10:42]:
Then this this whole thing all over again.

Greg [01:10:43]:
This passage would have been a double stuffed Oreo.

Dave [01:10:46]:
Right. No doubt.

Chad [01:11:02]:
Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee.com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.