The Five Solas: Sola Gratia (Timeless) - Part 2 of a 6 Part Series

We continue our series on the Five Solas and this time it's Sola Gratia (Grace Alone).  We look at grace, what it is, what it isn't, and how the understanding of grace has changed over time and between denominations.  What role did this radical realization play in Martin Luther's act of nailing the 95 Theses?  What should an understanding of "Grace Alone" lead to in your life?

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

Chad [00:00:01]:
I'll be kinda sad if, like, one of us has, like, something go wrong with, like, their brain. And then afterwards, someone's like, well, you could hear all this on the on the podcast. You could hear it unfolding right in front of you. How did you not see all the warning signs?

Dave [00:00:17]:
Yeah. Why are you both looking at

Chad [00:00:44]:
Who's on 1st? Confirmed.

Dave [00:00:49]:
3rd base.

Chad [00:00:53]:
Yeah. There was I think there was a Korean baseball player with the name of who, w h u. That's so sweet. And somebody somebody got a first somebody got a picture of him on 1st base. He was a 1st baseman and said it took it it took 83 years, but we finally

Dave [00:01:08]:
we finally got it. Yeah. We did it. A picture of who went first.

Chad [00:01:12]:
That's right. Who is on first?

Dave [00:01:14]:
Wow. That's perfect.

Chad [00:01:16]:
Okay. That is perfect.

Greg [00:01:17]:
I'm I'm just curious about a little list listener update.

Chad [00:01:21]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Let me, let me pull something up here real quick.

Dave [00:01:25]:
Just wanna say hi to our listener in Caledonia. Yes.

Chad [00:01:28]:
And our new one in Sweden?

Dave [00:01:29]:
We have a Swedish? Yes. Yeah. Stockholm syndrome. Stockholm syndrome? They're from Stockholm? Yes. And I'm sure I'm sure that's how they pronounce it. Yeah. Sorry, Stockholm. I apologize.

Dave [00:01:42]:
Wow.

Chad [00:01:45]:
That's what we do. As soon as we get a new listener, a new country, we alienate

Greg [00:01:48]:
it. Yes.

Dave [00:01:49]:
We insult we insult their

Chad [00:01:50]:
whole town. Deep library of American mass media, we we, we pull out every stereotype we know and yeah. So we've got a lot of downloads. New locations include Stockholm, Dearborn, and Surrey, British Columbia. Surrey Surrey.

Greg [00:02:10]:
Is that Surrey, British Columbia?

Dave [00:02:12]:
That's you. That's

Chad [00:02:13]:
funny, but no.

Greg [00:02:14]:
R r e y. S u r r e y. Yeah.

Dave [00:02:18]:
I believe it's 2 revolvers.

Greg [00:02:20]:
I think I know that listener.

Chad [00:02:22]:
Okay? The one Canadian. In particular

Greg [00:02:24]:
to wearing a bunny hug.

Chad [00:02:26]:
A bun what is a bunny hug?

Greg [00:02:28]:
We need

Dave [00:02:28]:
a judge's ruling on this. What is a bunny hug? A bunny hug. What is it? Is that like a snuggy? A Canadian snuggy?

Greg [00:02:36]:
Is this Our listener in Saskatoon, they're not the same person. Our listener in Saskatoon would know what a bunny hug is. Right.

Dave [00:02:43]:
A It's a Snuggie with ears.

Chad [00:02:45]:
Okay. Your guess is a Snuggie with ears? You're warm.

Dave [00:02:48]:
So it is like a it's like a Snuggie of sorts.

Greg [00:02:52]:
What is

Dave [00:02:53]:
a bunny hug, Greg? It's

Greg [00:02:54]:
a hoodie. Oh. Oh, that's it?

Dave [00:02:55]:
Yeah. It's a hoodie. It's

Greg [00:02:56]:
a hoodie. Is it a hoodie with,

Dave [00:02:58]:
like, special?

Greg [00:02:59]:
No. It's a hoodie. It's I don't know what's with people in Saskatchewan calling a hoodie a bunny hug, but Okay. It's a thing. It's a thing.

Dave [00:03:05]:
It feels like being hugged by a bunny, I think.

Greg [00:03:07]:
I'd do that. I don't know.

Dave [00:03:09]:
A good hitty wow. Cut that one. A good No.

Greg [00:03:14]:
We're leaving.

Dave [00:03:17]:
Feels amazing, though. Yeah? Yeah. You you feel hugged by a bunny. Yeah. I see why they do it. Good job, Saskatoon.

Chad [00:03:27]:
Don't be a sellout, Dave.

Dave [00:03:28]:
I'm a sellout.

Greg [00:03:29]:
Okay.

Dave [00:03:30]:
Hey. Pierre Poliev is from Canada. I love Pierre Poliev, Poliev, and

Greg [00:03:33]:
I want to

Dave [00:03:34]:
be here.

Greg [00:03:34]:
Of the house of commons.

Dave [00:03:36]:
He got not, like, permanently, though. That was for the day. Right?

Greg [00:03:38]:
I know. Yeah.

Dave [00:03:39]:
But I think he earned that well. I think I I agree with him.

Chad [00:03:42]:
He's like the cool kid at school who

Dave [00:03:44]:
got detention. He called somebody cotton headed in any muggies or something.

Greg [00:03:47]:
He called the prime minister a wacko.

Dave [00:03:50]:
Yeah. Not disagreeing. Not disagreeing with the comment.

Greg [00:03:54]:
And then he was asked to withdraw

Dave [00:03:58]:
The comment.

Greg [00:03:59]:
Is to simply withdraw, And he attempted to withdraw and replace wacko with extremist.

Dave [00:04:06]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:04:06]:
And he was urged to just simply withdraw. Mhmm. And he said, I withdraw and replace.

Dave [00:04:13]:
This is like Oh. Parliamentary remedy here.

Greg [00:04:17]:
Chest. Chest.

Dave [00:04:18]:
This is good stuff. Yes. It's a withdrawal.

Greg [00:04:21]:
At the end of the day, he was sent home for the day. Mhmm.

Dave [00:04:24]:
Yeah. Forever. And he got a day off. Yeah. He's a hardworking man. Yeah. Embarrassing. For all

Greg [00:04:30]:
of our listeners who are captivated by Canadian politics, That's me.

Dave [00:04:36]:
Can't get enough. Hey. If it's Pierre Polievre, I'm listening.

Chad [00:04:40]:
Is it Polievre or Poliver?

Dave [00:04:42]:
Polievre. Isn't it?

Greg [00:04:44]:
I don't know. Dave just loves his hair.

Dave [00:04:46]:
Yeah. Never once thought about his hair. I just love the apple eating interview.

Greg [00:04:52]:
Okay. Judge's ruling.

Chad [00:04:53]:
I Chad. Think comments were made about his hair.

Dave [00:04:56]:
I did. I made a comment about his hair being a lot like Greg's. Greg was just trying to bring up how how nice a quaff he has.

Chad [00:05:04]:
Don't be a sellout, Dave.

Dave [00:05:06]:
Sell it to Greg? I just wow. I'm just getting sold out. I'm selling out in all directions. No. No. That's fine. No. I did say I knew that.

Dave [00:05:15]:
Uh-huh. Okay. I was just feeding the beast over there.

Greg [00:05:17]:
Okay.

Dave [00:05:19]:
I got a I got a reputation as a person who has words that he thinks in his mind and words that he says comes out of his mouth Right. Differently and embarrassingly. Yeah. Yeah. I think That last sentence was horrible. No. It's I saw it coming out very differently in my brain.

Chad [00:05:36]:
It's serviceable, and I think everyone has that happen from time to time.

Dave [00:05:40]:
Yeah. But mine happens more. You know the the story of the the YouTube, so we won't we don't need to repeat that story.

Chad [00:05:46]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:05:46]:
Yeah. That's kind of a typical day for day.

Greg [00:05:48]:
Yeah. You bring it up.

Dave [00:05:51]:
Yeah. That was a perfect example. Just saying. It was a good example of how my brain works.

Chad [00:05:56]:
Yeah. Well, just saying. Yeah. And from the cutting room floor of this episode, Greg and Dave know how my brain works, and it's absolutely terrifying.

Dave [00:06:07]:
All I know is to get you really going, we just need to bring up.

Greg [00:06:10]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:06:13]:
Yeah. I still remember that picture. We have us 3 of us taken. I can't remember picture taken with a big gashira poster Yeah. At the theater. And Greg's like, why are we why are we why are we

Chad [00:06:26]:
No. You gotta admit it was a good movie.

Dave [00:06:27]:
It was a great movie. I love you know my thoughts on that movie. I love that movie.

Greg [00:06:31]:
Dave got to hear this, but but Chad didn't get to hear this. So if you look, one of the new listeners is in Mount Pleasant.

Chad [00:06:39]:
Okay.

Greg [00:06:39]:
Yes. That's a new one that shows up.

Dave [00:06:41]:
Hi, Mount Pleasant.

Greg [00:06:42]:
And, this is a wonderful, fantastic, nurse that I work with.

Chad [00:06:50]:
I'll I'll Meet that up

Greg [00:06:51]:
now. Yeah.

Dave [00:06:52]:
Chat. You might wanna start over again.

Greg [00:06:57]:
No. We're just and and, and she's like, Tell me about this Dave. Wasn't one of her texts I shared the text that she sent, Dave needs to be on meds. Anyway Oh, right. But she's like, can I see a picture of Dave? Oh, jeez. Wow. Alright. So I I showed her the picture of us at the

Dave [00:07:21]:
At Godzilla.

Greg [00:07:21]:
Godzilla. Oh.

Dave [00:07:22]:
Oh, nice.

Greg [00:07:23]:
Holding our Godzilla posters.

Chad [00:07:25]:
That is awesome. Yeah.

Dave [00:07:27]:
Chad and I, I'm like, it's kinda like phases. There's, like, Greg's like, why are we having this picture taken? And Dave's like, hey. This is kinda cool. And Chad's like, this is the greatest day of my life.

Greg [00:07:38]:
Yeah. Pretty much. It's pretty sweet.

Dave [00:07:40]:
It's like a good good evening.

Chad [00:07:42]:
Yeah. I'll be kinda sad if, like, one of us has, like, something go wrong with, like, their brain. And then afterwards, someone's like, well, you could hear all this on the on the podcast. You could hear it unfolding right in front of you. How did you not see all the warning signs?

Dave [00:08:00]:
Yeah. Why are you both looking at it? Why are you both looking at it? I feel like I haven't got really upset Alzheimer's.

Chad [00:08:08]:
Well, I I'm not looking right at you. I wasn't an

Dave [00:08:12]:
You were not thinking about me. Well And Greg was staring me down. All these meds I need. Yeah.

Chad [00:08:22]:
Alright. So tonight, what are we up to? Part 2 of our 6 part series on the 5 solas.

Greg [00:08:31]:
6 parts, I'm guessing.

Dave [00:08:33]:
Parts on the 5 solas. Yeah. I can we can we talk about the the the the elephant in the room, though? Like, how can you have 5 onlys?

Chad [00:08:43]:
That's a good question.

Greg [00:08:45]:
I maybe it's a good question. I don't know where he's going with it.

Dave [00:08:48]:
I'm just kinda having a little fun, but it's like you only this and only this and well, which is it? Well No. I'm just kidding. I know what it means.

Chad [00:08:56]:
Programmatically, I'm picturing branches, like, and then only this branch to only that branch to only this branch to so I that that's what I picture. So it makes sense to me.

Dave [00:09:08]:
Yeah. So they're not only as in the only one thing in your theology. Right. Within this one specific realm, it's only by grace. Right. It's only by faith. It's only by right. So part 2 of our 6 part series on the 5 solas.

Greg [00:09:28]:
Yes. 6 parts,

Dave [00:09:30]:
Well, we keep saying it.

Chad [00:09:31]:
Yeah. I keep saying it.

Dave [00:09:32]:
Well I think we need a one wrap up at the end.

Chad [00:09:34]:
That's what I'm planning on.

Greg [00:09:35]:
Okay.

Dave [00:09:36]:
Alright. So sola gratia.

Chad [00:09:39]:
Sola gratia.

Dave [00:09:40]:
Just a horrible pronunciation of

Chad [00:09:42]:
Yeah. It it, how do you pronounce it? Sola I think it's Gratia. Gratia.

Dave [00:09:47]:
But there's probably multiple ways of

Chad [00:09:50]:
I presumed it was Gracia, but

Dave [00:09:52]:
Gracia just sounds crass to me. American. Mark and Gracia. I don't know. What do you think, Greg? How would you pronounce gratia, g r a t I a, in Latin?

Greg [00:10:07]:
Well, since I didn't take Latin

Dave [00:10:12]:
Oh. I

Greg [00:10:12]:
would say, saved by grace alone. There you go. So much simpler.

Dave [00:10:18]:
Just to translate it.

Chad [00:10:20]:
Yeah. Soul of grace.

Dave [00:10:22]:
By grace alone.

Greg [00:10:23]:
By grace alone.

Dave [00:10:25]:
Been really fixated on the a group, the song Grace by City Alight. City Alight, not city a light, but City Alight. Worship group, great song.

Chad [00:10:40]:
Interesting.

Dave [00:10:41]:
Yeah. Have to check it out. Yeah. It's good really good. Very good theology and very singable. Easy easy melody. Good stuff. Said it again.

Greg [00:10:53]:
That's okay. It's good stuff. Yeah.

Dave [00:10:58]:
So who's get so are we gonna are we gonna am I gonna get reprimanded for talking too much about the background of this this time?

Chad [00:11:04]:
Think so. If you look at the show notes, like, 3 quarters of it is background. So so, first of all, sola gracia. Start with a definition. What do we got for a definition of grace alone off the top of your heads?

Dave [00:11:25]:
It's by grace.

Chad [00:11:27]:
It's pretty

Dave [00:11:28]:
easy, isn't it? Pretty straightforward. Yeah. I I keep looking at Craig because this is like his this is the 5 solas are his baby, man. I mean that in a good sense.

Greg [00:11:37]:
Oh, it's my baby.

Dave [00:11:39]:
Well, it's the reformation's baby.

Greg [00:11:41]:
Like, it I think your birth is closer to this than mine.

Dave [00:11:44]:
Oh. By 5 years. Yes. It just makes me a little bit wiser, Craig.

Greg [00:11:52]:
Judging by speech patterns, I'm not so sure. Oh, okay. Anyway.

Dave [00:11:58]:
Clearly, I'm not the one. Oh, I am the one that needs meds apparently.

Greg [00:12:03]:
He forgot our listeners. He forgot already.

Dave [00:12:05]:
Our listeners have told us that I need meds. Yes. But then she wanted to see my pic. Is it a she? I don't even know if the he or she. They wanted to see my picture. I'll just say they. Yes. Clearly, they they wanna see if the face matches this buttery smooth voice.

Dave [00:12:22]:
Right?

Chad [00:12:24]:
The Velveeta cheese. Velveeta cheese of the

Dave [00:12:27]:
of the podcast world. Alright.

Greg [00:12:30]:
Salvation by grace alone means that our salvation from the wrath of God or our deliverance from hell is something, is because of something good in God, and it is not because of anything that is good in us. Mhmm. It is only because of something good in God. There is nothing at all good in us. You have to go look in you have to look at a biblical concept of the human nature, a biblical, picture of what man is like because of Adam's fall and the fall into sin and the picture that it paints, and it's not very good. The Armenians

Dave [00:13:14]:
Armenians or Armenians? For once, Greg made a slip of the tongue. You did say Armenians. We're not talking about a genocide tonight.

Chad [00:13:26]:
Yet we're

Dave [00:13:27]:
talking about theological genocide.

Greg [00:13:32]:
You want to say it correctly for me Dave?

Dave [00:13:34]:
Armenian Armenian.

Chad [00:13:37]:
Sorry. The

Greg [00:13:38]:
Armenian. It's my Canadian accent coming out, Yeah.

Chad [00:13:43]:
How dare you make fun of our diversity hires accent.

Dave [00:13:47]:
HR is gonna be visiting me this week. And,

Greg [00:13:50]:
and and Pleiadians, which which we'll get into definitions, have this confidence in our in our human mobility, in our human nature, and in this inherent goodness in us. And you you see that all around that there's this idea that there is something good in man. And we're gonna talk a lot lot about this today. We're gonna end up talking a lot about this. But when you look at the picture of what the Bible says about man and the human condition, it paints an utterly desperate picture of where man is. Hopeless, unable, unwilling, incapable of turning to God, of having the desire to seek God, of having any ability on their own to produce anything good. It it it's it's horrible, and it is only only, only because of the goodness of God that we can be saved.

Dave [00:14:48]:
Cooperate with God in our salvation.

Greg [00:14:51]:
Yeah. No. Now I need to did you did you save that Paul like, did you memorize that Paul Washer quote?

Chad [00:14:58]:
I've got it right here. Okay.

Greg [00:15:01]:
Well, who who can get I brought

Dave [00:15:03]:
the Paul Washer quote for Greg. Yeah. I'm so proud of myself.

Chad [00:15:07]:
The Paul Washer quote is, if salvation was 99.99% Jesus and 0.01% us, we would all be damned.

Greg [00:15:15]:
Yep. We would all be damned.

Dave [00:15:17]:
That's a bad word.

Chad [00:15:19]:
Is that our first swear?

Dave [00:15:22]:
No. On the air.

Greg [00:15:23]:
We just said On the air. We would be damned.

Dave [00:15:25]:
Yeah. That's not a swear word. Jesus. That's not right. That's that was a bad joke because now they think we're evil. We don't really do swears. We don't. I swear we don't swear.

Greg [00:15:37]:
Yes. Oh, jeez, dude.

Dave [00:15:41]:
Am I just setting this podcast off on a bad note? No.

Greg [00:15:44]:
He just needs his meds.

Dave [00:15:47]:
We've been told. Alright.

Greg [00:15:50]:
By a nurse. So can we get back? Yes. Please.

Dave [00:15:53]:
So so so what would what would the opposite of sola gray, you know, by grace alone be? So in other words, what in other words, the the those 5 solas are reactionary statements to what's going on historically.

Greg [00:16:09]:
Right. So that's the Pelagian Pelagianism. Yeah. And go ahead, Dave. You wanna bring

Dave [00:16:15]:
it right now? I was gonna well, can I give one word? And then because it One word. Yeah. Merit. Mhmm. Right. That's a good word. Right? So either it's by grace or it's by merit. Yeah.

Dave [00:16:27]:
Which is what we cooperate with God or we earn or something to that effect.

Chad [00:16:33]:
Yeah. Something special about us.

Dave [00:16:34]:
But, no, you you keep going, dude. This is Yeah. You're cranking out, man. My I'm the comedic relief tonight, clearly. Comedic relief.

Greg [00:16:46]:
So where where do we wanna go? Do I do we wanna prove this human condition right now?

Dave [00:16:51]:
We

Greg [00:16:51]:
wanna, like?

Dave [00:16:53]:
Yeah. Because I'm gonna I'm gonna throw out some, like, devil's advocate arguments as we go along. This is my evil plan to get you to the table. Evil plan? No. It's a good plan. Why don't we hit some passages?

Greg [00:17:03]:
Okay. So I like Job 14 verses 1 to 4. It says, man is born of a woman, is few of days and full of trouble. He comes out like a flower and withers. He flees like a shadow and continues not. And do you open your eyes on such a one and bring me into judgment with you? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. And it just points to the fact that we are impure, subject to the judgment of god. Jeremiah 1323 says, can the Ethiopian change his skin or leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Greg [00:17:43]:
So because of our sins, we're impure, accustomed to doing evil, and we and we can't change that. We're incapable of changing that. And I'm gonna go on, and now I'm gonna start sounding like a hellfire preacher. Okay? And it, like, it it starts to get uncomfortable, but this is not Greg, Chad, Dave speaking. This is the word of God talking about the human condition. Psalm 51 verse 5, the psalmist writes, behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. And he's not saying that that the act that my mother did was sinful. He's just saying that that I'm sinful from the beginning.

Greg [00:18:24]:
From my conception, I am sinful. Born sinful from the very moment of my conception. It goes on to say in Psalm 58 verse 3, even from birth even from birth, the wicked go astray. From the womb, they are wayward and speak lies. And and that's so true. Like, you anybody who's raised a child knows that you don't have to teach a child to lie. Like, they do that on their own. Yeah.

Greg [00:18:55]:
They they they will hide things from you. They will be deceitful. They'll be treacherous. They do that on their own. Yeah. You have to you have to teach them to do right. You have to put restraint on them. You have to put a fence and a boundary around them to keep them restrained because they want to do what is wrong.

Greg [00:19:18]:
Right. And, you

Chad [00:19:19]:
know, it's really interesting. And I I've heard that example used before, and I kinda knew it was true. When I was raising, my kids when my wife and I were raising our kids, the first time I remember one of my kids lying, what really caught me off guard is not only did he lie, he knew he lied and he knew it was wrong.

Greg [00:19:40]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:19:40]:
I mean, just the look on his face, no poker face there. He knew that he had done wrong as soon as it came out of his mouth. Absolutely. Amazing. Fascinating.

Greg [00:19:51]:
Yeah. I

Dave [00:19:52]:
don't know if if it's one of you who had said this, but I've heard something to the effect of it's really a good thing that babies or infants are really weak. Yeah. Was that was that you, Greg? Yeah. Because they would murder you.

Greg [00:20:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. They they

Dave [00:20:07]:
actually Yeah. It's so little

Greg [00:20:09]:
self control. Yeah. When you got that little baby, it's like 5 months old or 8 months old, and they're trying to grab that earring that the mom's got or the necklace, and you're telling them no, and they they start to get mad.

Dave [00:20:21]:
Or the 2 year old that

Greg [00:20:22]:
If that baby had the strength of an 18 year old man, they would kill you to get what they want. They they really would.

Dave [00:20:28]:
They don't have the control. Yeah. But isn't that just nurture? Mhmm. I I remember sitting in a in a grad class at a major state university.

Greg [00:20:38]:
Think that in No.

Dave [00:20:39]:
I don't.

Greg [00:20:39]:
2 months of time, you have taught them to be wicked and evil?

Dave [00:20:42]:
No. It's not. It's nature. It's absolute nature. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way that we we can teach them to lie. They don't understand the concept or yeah, children are intrinsically selfish.

Dave [00:20:54]:
Even my 2 beautiful 3rd on the way are little rascals. Yeah. Little sinners. Cute little sinners, but they're still sinners.

Greg [00:21:04]:
Wretched little sinners. Indeed. They're cute. Boy,

Dave [00:21:07]:
you're so negative.

Greg [00:21:08]:
Wretched little sinners. Yeah.

Chad [00:21:11]:
Are you a wretched little sinner? Yes. You are. Yeah.

Greg [00:21:13]:
You are. So real quick, because the old testament goes on. 1st Kings 4 or 846, there is no one who does not sin. There is no one. No one. No one? No one.

Chad [00:21:27]:
Anybody? Anybody? No one.

Greg [00:21:31]:
No none. Proverbs 20 verse 9. Who can say I have kept my heart pure, I am clean and without sin? Moses says or Moses writes in Genesis 6 verse 5, the Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become and that every every inclination of his thoughts or of of the thoughts of his heart was on evil all the time. Every inclination of his heart, of the thoughts of his hearts was only on evil all the time.

Dave [00:22:04]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Greg [00:22:06]:
And it's not just

Dave [00:22:06]:
I'm hearing a little bit of goodness there. So it's it's kinda like, so you're saying there's a chance. Every inclination. There's a chance. Every inclination. Perfect one. No. Oh, okay.

Greg [00:22:20]:
So and it's not just the old testament now. Like, Jesus in, in Matthew 15, he declares, for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. It's Jesus who declares anyone who looks at a woman's heart lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. It's Jesus who said, you've heard it said, do not murder, But anyone who murders or and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. But I say anyone who's angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Anyone who calls his fool will be danger in danger of the fire of hell. Just condemning the hearts of man. Paul writes in Romans 8 verses 7 and 8, the sinful mind is hostile to God.

Greg [00:23:21]:
It does not submit to god's law nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please god. And and one of the reasons that it like, if there's people listening to this right now and it's rubbing them the wrong way is they don't like hearing that their mind is sinful. They don't like hearing that their mind is hostile to God. And it just it makes you uncomfortable to hear that. Yeah. Not because Greg is saying it. Not because Chad's saying it.

Greg [00:23:53]:
It's because this is what God says. Because our hearts are rebellious. Our hearts are impure. There's nothing inside of us that desires to do good, that is capable of, of doing good, that sets out to do the right thing, that wants to pursue God, nothing at all.

Chad [00:24:14]:
Yeah. And and if if I may interject real quick. Yeah. If that is you right now, if you're if you're feeling this, like, rage building up in you at at Greg for these things that he's saying.

Dave [00:24:25]:
I'm being pretty mean right now.

Chad [00:24:26]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:24:26]:
I am.

Chad [00:24:27]:
So I'm just gonna point out, all he's doing is reading what the Bible says.

Greg [00:24:31]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:24:31]:
And all of these verses are in context. All of these verses are, you know, they are they say exactly what he you you go back and grab an LSB, CSB, ESV, any King James, New King James. You can grab it in any version you want.

Dave [00:24:49]:
What happened?

Chad [00:24:50]:
Yeah. It's gonna say the same thing, and it is the Bible.

Dave [00:24:57]:
That's what makes it hard. Yeah. And that's what I think that's to me is the it seems to me that why it's so hard that a salvation by grace, to embrace something that's a salvation by grace is you have to fundamentally admit that you can't do it on your own.

Greg [00:25:16]:
Right.

Dave [00:25:17]:
Yeah. And so it's it's the ultimate act of humility to say that, yeah, I'm a pretty wretched dude Mhmm. Or dudette, whichever you happen to be. And to say that I need Yeah. Someone outside myself to save me.

Chad [00:25:36]:
Yeah. Wish that was the Fonz from the old TV show. Right?

Dave [00:25:43]:
Did he actually say, oh, because he couldn't say I need?

Chad [00:25:45]:
Yeah. I don't know that.

Greg [00:25:46]:
No. He he couldn't say I'm

Chad [00:25:49]:
Wrong. Wrong. That's right.

Dave [00:25:50]:
That's another one, though.

Greg [00:25:51]:
I made

Dave [00:25:53]:
moo. Moo. To the fawns. Interesting. Right. Yeah.

Chad [00:25:58]:
I'm sure he couldn't say need either.

Dave [00:26:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. So so is it dare I ask this and we can

Greg [00:26:07]:
I dare you

Dave [00:26:08]:
to? Defer this.

Greg [00:26:09]:
I dare you to.

Chad [00:26:09]:
Double double.

Dave [00:26:10]:
We can we can defer this till later if you want. Is it total inability or total depravity? In other words, are we as bad as we could be, or is it that we're so bad we're unable to come to Christ? Because total depravity is the concept that everybody is is they're they're we are completely fallen. Yeah. But does that mean that we're as evil as possible?

Greg [00:26:35]:
No. We're completely fallen. Okay. Yeah.

Dave [00:26:37]:
And that makes us so that's why some people would rather use the term total inability. No. Right? Because we don't have the capacity as opposed to saying if I said you're totally depraved, the impression that you could get is

Greg [00:26:49]:
I see what you're trying to say.

Dave [00:26:50]:
You're saying is I'm 100% as evil as possible, and it's a good thing we're not. Right. Because there would be no such thing as society. It would be one big purge.

Greg [00:27:01]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so when you hear this, like, there are a lot of wicked, wicked things that happen Yeah. In the world. And it's really easy to say I'm not as bad as that person. And, no, you haven't outwardly acted in the same way that that person has, and you haven't outwardly acted in the same way that that person has.

Greg [00:27:25]:
But but you're complete that you have completely rejected god in the same way that that person has.

Dave [00:27:32]:
Mhmm.

Greg [00:27:33]:
Yeah. And it is by god's grace that you haven't fully embraced all of the evil that they have. God has protected you from that. When you hear the expression, but but by God's grace, there I go, when when you see a a drug addict who just spirals down into the the craziest craziest of self destructive and horrible behaviors, You're capable of that. You you are. You are absolutely capable of that. God is protecting you from that because he's good. But your sinful nature is that corrupt that you're capable of that.

Dave [00:28:13]:
Yeah. We're just a couple bad choices away from

Greg [00:28:16]:
And apart from God's grace, you would be there. And and and if you are a believer, you didn't do anything to get there. It was God who did it. It was God alone who did it. It was not your choice. You weren't better because you made the choice. You didn't do more. And we'll get into that more because it's a really important point I wanna make later on when we talk about that and the plagian influence and k.

Greg [00:28:46]:
Because I wanna get into that a little bit more later on.

Dave [00:28:50]:
But Awesome.

Greg [00:28:51]:
So we've got we've got this total depravity, kinda the the state of the human condition nailed. Like, we're completely Where

Dave [00:28:59]:
did it come from?

Greg [00:29:00]:
In from the Bible, Dave.

Dave [00:29:02]:
No. No. No. Where did our where did our sinfulness come from? How did we become sinners?

Greg [00:29:07]:
Yeah. So when Adam in the garden, Adam and Eve took the fruit that god told them not to eat the fruit from that tree, and Eve saw that it was good, and she took and ate it, and she gave some to Adam and he ate it, That moment of rebellion is when sin entered the world. Mhmm. And now all of the offspring of David have that sin imputed to them.

Chad [00:29:34]:
Yep. The original, you had one thing to do. You had one thing to do.

Dave [00:29:39]:
Yeah. Not eat the fruit.

Greg [00:29:41]:
One thing. Yep.

Dave [00:29:42]:
I'm not gonna judge him. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. But so and if you wanna read that where we get that concept, it's Romans chapter 5. Right? Romans chapter 5 is where we learned that we all sinned in Adam. Yes. Yeah.

Dave [00:29:57]:
So for whatever reason, until the giving of the law, according to Romans 5, until the giving of the law, death happened. Right? From the fall to the giving of the law, death reigned. But we back then before the law was given, you didn't die for your own sins. You died for the sins of Adam. Right? Now that the law came according to Romans 5, we die both for the sin of Adam and for our own sins. So according to Romans 5, we're sinners for two reasons. We're sinners by choice, that is to say when we choose to sin. But even before we chose to sin, we were sinners by nature.

Dave [00:30:37]:
That's enough to condemn, which gives us good reason to send missionaries all over the world.

Chad [00:30:43]:
So the term we've heard a couple times, Pelagianism, do we wanna talk about who Pelagius was? He was a monk. He was a monk.

Dave [00:30:55]:
He was a theologian.

Chad [00:30:56]:
And who is his mortal enemy? Augustine. Is it Augustine or Augustine?

Dave [00:31:03]:
I will defer to the famous people that I know who call it Augustine. Call him Augustine. But I I think it's either way. If it's Florida, it's Augustine. If it's Okay. It's Augustine.

Chad [00:31:13]:
Okay. Augustine.

Dave [00:31:14]:
I don't

Chad [00:31:15]:
know. Augustine. So in the early 5th century, there was a series of debates between Augustine and Pelagius. Basically, Pelagianism holds again, grossly oversimplified, anyone can attain salvation through working hard and following all the rules is basically what he was saying. Right? To put it into layman's term.

Greg [00:31:39]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:31:39]:
So Yeah.

Dave [00:31:40]:
So is it did he believe in the workspace?

Greg [00:31:44]:
No. Not workspace. So in

Dave [00:31:46]:
other words but but salvation was a cooperative effort between God?

Greg [00:31:49]:
Yes. So so that's so now you're getting into monergism and synergism. Mhmm. So monergism is is this sola, salvation by grace alone. It is God alone who acts, And synergism is that there is part of you that works with God. So this would be like in the Catholic church, there is a little part of you that is awake enough to choose to receive the sacraments of grace that can then save you. So you are working with God's grace, and it's this synergistic working. That's Pelagianism.

Dave [00:32:29]:
So, yeah, which is kind of ironic because the Catholic church loves Saint Augustine.

Greg [00:32:33]:
They do. They love Saint Augustine Even though they're

Dave [00:32:35]:
in many ways. Yeah.

Chad [00:32:37]:
Yeah. And I believe some direct disciples of Pelagius are saints in the Catholic church.

Greg [00:32:41]:
All kinds of self contradictions.

Dave [00:32:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. So as I understand it, infant baptism within the Catholic tradition overcomes original sin. I believe Yes.

Chad [00:32:56]:
That is a true thing. Yes.

Dave [00:32:59]:
And so that gives you the capacity then Yep. To cooperate with God. I'm just putting more meat on the bones that Craig just laid out. So once once you've done that, now salvation is a combination of faith and and merit and grace received from sacramental things. Yes. And, you know, last rites and

Chad [00:33:24]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:33:25]:
Their view of the sacraments including what they would call holy communion. Yep. Confession. Right. Confession and marriage. And for for the Catholic, it was a merit based salvation based on grace. This if you talk to the Catholic apologist, say, well, we believe in grace too, but it's grace plus. And that's why I like kind of simplifying it down to merit.

Dave [00:33:54]:
Okay. If there's any sense of merit, it's not grace it's merit or grace it can't be both

Greg [00:34:00]:
right

Dave [00:34:01]:
right it's

Greg [00:34:03]:
and that's where you

Dave [00:34:04]:
go back to the Paul Washer quote Yeah. Yeah. And, so there's a couple of passages, and are we ready to hit a couple of the New Testament passages that are on this?

Greg [00:34:13]:
Or Yep.

Dave [00:34:14]:
So I think yep. To me, the clearest the 2 clearest are Ephesians 289

Chad [00:34:19]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:34:19]:
And then Titus 35. Right? So, give me a second. Let's get to Titus 35. That's it's actually

Greg [00:34:27]:
He's got his analog Bible again.

Dave [00:34:29]:
Yes. Sweet. Listen to that beautiful page

Chad [00:34:32]:
turning. It's wonderful.

Dave [00:34:35]:
Analog. It's up in the upper right hand corner. Yeah. Okay. Alright. So can you hear those those beautiful pages?

Chad [00:34:41]:
Oh, yes.

Dave [00:34:42]:
We hear them. Turn to Titus 3 and just for context let's jump back into Titus 3:3-5. So it says this for we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God, our savior, and his love for mankind appeared, he saved us. Notice not that we saved each other or he worked with us in our salvation, but he saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness or not by righteous deeds which we have done.

Chad [00:35:26]:
That's the

Dave [00:35:27]:
King James. But according to His mercy by the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit. So there there it says it pretty straightforward. You were evil corrupt sinners, But he saved us. Not and then he he says it to make sure it's not based on merit, not based on deeds of righteousness, which we've done, but rather it's by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. So he regenerates us. He saves us now. And it happens to be through faith.

Dave [00:36:06]:
Yep. But as a step. But, to me, that's one of the clearest passages. It states it negatively. It's not based on deeds of righteousness. Mhmm. It's not based on your baptism. It's not based on communion.

Dave [00:36:17]:
It's not based on the good that we do, but it's all by grace because he saved us.

Chad [00:36:24]:
Ephesians 28 through 9, for you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves. It is a it is God's gift, not from works so that no one can boast.

Dave [00:36:37]:
Mhmm. That's pretty airtight. Yeah.

Greg [00:36:39]:
Yeah. Pretty airtight.

Dave [00:36:41]:
Yeah. And it it if you go back a few verses earlier, it even talks about how we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Right? Mhmm. So it's very parallel to what Paul says in Titus chapter 3. But if there's an ability to brag, that's merit.

Chad [00:36:56]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:36:57]:
But if it's grace, you can't pray. Right? So if if you're not salvation by grace through faith, then you're you're able to brag and tell people how good you are or how able you were able to save yourself. Yeah. Yeah. K. I'm looking at Greg to see what he's doing. Yeah. Let's see what's Greg doing.

Greg [00:37:27]:
No. I just like, in in John 11, the story of Jesus and Lazarus. And, you know, Lazarus dies and they want the Lazarus is sick and they want Jesus to come and heal him, and he doesn't come in time and Jesus dies. And then Jesus finally comes, like, days later, and they're all mourning, and Jesus cries. And then Jesus raises him from the dead. Yep. And then Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. And the picture there is, like, this is a dead man who can do nothing.

Greg [00:38:10]:
Yeah. And Jesus makes him alive again. And then that picture there in in Ephesians, right before what what you read where it talks about being dead in our trespasses and sins, but we are made alive in Christ. We can't choose, but he makes us alive. He does it. And when he saves us, and, he makes us whole again and, gives us new life. And there's nothing that we do. There there's nothing that that I can't remember who the preacher was.

Dave [00:38:47]:
I don't know if it

Greg [00:38:48]:
was Bobby Bachman or or what. He he has this class or somebody he's teaching and or whatever it was, and he's like, you know what dead people can do? They can stink. And we're dead people. Yeah. We can't do anything. Yeah. We can't do anything to save ourselves. And and by what Jesus does on the cross, God reaches down and saves us and makes us alive.

Greg [00:39:18]:
And it's by grace alone we contribute absolutely nothing to it.

Dave [00:39:25]:
Amen? You know what's a really good test case for that? Because if if you believed in the other view, the merit view, that there has to be. Because if you do believe in the traditional Catholic view, then you have to believe that there are some things that need to go along with your faith. Right. Right? And there's cooperation. Alright. Talk to me about the thief on the cross. Right. Tell me what what one meritorious thing did he do? Maybe he defended Jesus on the cross.

Dave [00:39:56]:
Maybe. I don't know. But he he wasn't baptized? Nope. He didn't get to do confession? Nope. He didn't get last rights? None of it. Nope. Yeah. Alright.

Dave [00:40:09]:
But what about baptism? Because there are those who would argue there are Christian denominations

Greg [00:40:13]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:40:14]:
Who teach that baptism is part of the gospel. That if you aren't baptized and some of them would say if you're not baptized in the right church. Right.

Chad [00:40:25]:
In the right Thinking

Dave [00:40:26]:
of 1 Protestant denomination or they would call themselves Protestant denomination and then the other is Catholic.

Chad [00:40:30]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:40:31]:
Right? If you're not baptized, you got a, you know, very low chance of making it, right, in the right church. Right. And there are there are even some Baptist churches that say baptism is required in the right church. No. Yeah. They don't say it's required for salvation, that I know. But, there is one denomination, big denomination, particularly in the south, that says you have to be baptized in order to be saved. It's called baptismal regeneration is the view.

Dave [00:41:03]:
So how would you talk to them? Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Right. Yeah.

Chad [00:41:13]:
Well, I think I would go back to the thief in the cross.

Dave [00:41:15]:
Well, he's an exception because he was in the old testament. That's that's literally what they say because he was an old testament saint. Baptism didn't happen until after. According to them Uh-huh. It's not required until the beginning of the church. Even though there was baptisms happening in the history of Jesus. Right.

Chad [00:41:34]:
Who who who went in front of Jesus? John the

Dave [00:41:37]:
The John the John the Baptist. Yeah. The baptizer. Yeah. Okay. The one who baptizes. And by But that is that is that's their out as if you will. And that's I don't find it as as good out.

Chad [00:41:51]:
I it's not a good out, and I wouldn't let them get away with it. So Yeah. I mean, by the 1st century, baptism was pretty common. Right? I mean, it was it was already yeah. So I I don't think that works.

Dave [00:42:03]:
Yeah. I think there's another good example that's really helpful. Baptism is important Mhmm. But Paul, specifically in first Corinthians chapter 1, says that I'm glad I didn't baptize you because my ministry is the gospel. Right. And as soon as you say that I'm glad I didn't baptize my ministry as the gospel. You have separated and divorced, and now you see the setup because I actually used the words earlier. Is baptism part of the gospel? Right? Yeah.

Dave [00:42:41]:
And it's not. It's it's absolutely not part of the gospel because Paul says, look, I'm glad I only baptized some of you because I don't want that to be the issue because my ministry is the gospel and I'm happy to let other people do the baptizing. So I think that's a that's another kind of clincher for me when it comes to that one. So

Greg [00:43:03]:
No. We'll have to do a show on baptism because we don't wanna make it sound like baptism isn't important. Why do baptism

Dave [00:43:09]:
I did I did try to say testimony of it. I agree with you. I agree. It doesn't very important.

Greg [00:43:12]:
We'll save that for another.

Dave [00:43:13]:
That'd be another good episode.

Greg [00:43:15]:
Yeah. Would be.

Dave [00:43:16]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:43:17]:
We'll do it. I'll put it on the list.

Dave [00:43:19]:
Can I give, can I give one example of a verse that we probably need to help people put into context, the biblical context?

Greg [00:43:28]:
I'll allow it.

Dave [00:43:29]:
You'll allow it? Okay. So Hebrews 121314. The motion is carried without objection. Without without objection. I second that motion. I second that emotion. Oh, wait. Wrong.

Greg [00:43:39]:
The gentleman has 2 minutes. Robert's rules of order.

Dave [00:43:46]:
My least favorite okay. 12, 13, 14.

Greg [00:43:49]:
I mean, 45 seconds.

Dave [00:43:53]:
Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble and make straight paths for your feet so that the limb, which is lame, may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with all men and, ellipsis here, pursue, the sanctification without which no one will see God. Right? So if I'm gonna argue, salvation by grace plus works, that's probably the easiest verse that I could go to to go see. You need to pursue sanctification, that is spiritual growth. Because if you don't, you will not see God because you need sanctification to see God. Is this a contradiction? Is this we're misunderstanding Ephesians 2 89 and Titus 33 through 5? Or is there something about the context of the Bible or theological How do we put that how do we jive those two concepts? Go for it. K.

Chad [00:44:57]:
What was the reference again?

Dave [00:44:58]:
Hebrews 12, 13, 14. It's actually 12, 14. But it says, pursue sanctification without which you will cannot see God. So what we're really talking about here is the relationship of works and and grace. Are works the basis?

Greg [00:45:16]:
Oh, no. They're the outflow.

Dave [00:45:18]:
The outflow? You sound Canadian.

Greg [00:45:20]:
The outflow.

Dave [00:45:21]:
Outflow. Mhmm. Come on, man.

Greg [00:45:24]:
Come on.

Dave [00:45:25]:
Yeah. So the the question is, right, is it is this talking about the basis of your salvation? In other words, is sanctification yes. You have to be sanctified Yeah. To see God. Right. But does that mean that you're producing that sanctification as the basis for it? I mean, Titus 35 already said, not by works of righteousness. So it's kinda like this, we're known by our fruits. Mhmm.

Dave [00:45:55]:
Right? So if I say, oh, look, an apple tree, and I take the apple off and I say, this apple makes this tree an apple tree. That's not really true. Right? This tree is an apple tree, therefore, it produces apples. Right. So when God saves, he does the sanctifying. And you will grow spiritually if you're a true believer. Because God is working in your life and he's sanctifying you and he's bringing you to conforming you to the image of a son. So you pursue that because without it, you won't won't see God, but it's not the basis of your salvation.

Dave [00:46:33]:
It's the like how you said that, Greg, it's the outflow of salvation. Yeah. And that that I've actually talked to some Catholic people before. They said, well, see, you need you need works Right. Because of a verse like this.

Greg [00:46:48]:
Yeah. It's like James talking about faith without works is dead. Yeah. Right. And people get caught up and think, well, I have to have works or else my faith is dead. Mhmm. But doing the works isn't what creates the faith. It's that your works are a natural outflow of the faith.

Greg [00:47:05]:
Right.

Dave [00:47:05]:
Yeah. There's a cool little Greek golden nugget in there too that you can use with them. No. It's really cool. I've actually no. This is some translations show it.

Greg [00:47:15]:
Golden nugget preaching.

Dave [00:47:16]:
I don't like golden that I've used that term on purpose. Uh-huh. To get you higher.

Greg [00:47:20]:
Good. Here we go. Golden nugget preaching.

Chad [00:47:22]:
Yeah. And and while you're looking, whenever I hear sanctification, I think of, verses that talk about sanctified by the reading of the word and by the works of the spirit.

Dave [00:47:33]:
Mhmm.

Chad [00:47:33]:
So, again, it doesn't it doesn't really seem like, you know, your your merit is sanctifying you or or, you know, your sanctification is a work that leads to salvation, it seems like, is an outflow, like Greg said

Dave [00:47:45]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:47:46]:
Of things that are already inside.

Dave [00:47:48]:
Yeah. So, right, there's faith, right, and then there's works. And in in James, you get this, like, show me your faith. I'll show you my faith by my works. Right? But there's a there's a little verse in here. So, what use is it, my brother? And if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? And that's actually there are some translations that only say can faith save him Because there's a there's a little Greek construction there

Greg [00:48:22]:
Mhmm.

Dave [00:48:22]:
And it actually in it actually is the word the. Can the faith save him? And it's actually called the article of previous reference. So he's saying, look, can the faith that I just talked about before, can that save you? So that's why that should be and it is translated in the NASB and some other good translations. Can that faith save him? So as soon as I say can that faith save him, that creates a category of another kind of faith. And so what you actually have going on in James chapter 2 is not a contrast between faith and works. And a combining of them, it's actually saying there's a faith that produces works. There's that kind of faith. And there's another kind of faith, which is a faith, the kind of demonic faith that does not produce work because it's not true faith.

Dave [00:49:11]:
Right. It's not life changing faith. So you gave me a chance. I I wasn't gonna do talk about that tonight, but it's a fun one. Let you gotta let the former Greek professor get a little Greek in there.

Greg [00:49:21]:
Bump, set, slap.

Dave [00:49:23]:
That's the way we that doesn't work. Spike it. That's the way we like it.

Chad [00:49:30]:
Well, there we go.

Dave [00:49:31]:
By the way, no volleyball coach that I know likes that phrase anymore. Really? Yeah. I just cringe. I die a little bit every time we say it. Oh, really? Even when I say it, I die just a little bit because we pass that attack. Mhmm. Brilliant. Yep.

Dave [00:49:45]:
And Greg knows that. That's why he keeps doing it because

Chad [00:49:47]:
he knows I died

Greg [00:49:48]:
just a little bit. That's the way we like it.

Dave [00:49:52]:
It's better to slap it, which was a reference to something I'd said earlier I'd now too. So good callback.

Greg [00:50:02]:
Nice. I do what I can.

Dave [00:50:04]:
Yeah. So that's technically called the article of previous reference. Mhmm. Nerd alert. The callback? Yeah. Yeah. The callback. It's a callback.

Greg [00:50:13]:
The article of previous reference. Yeah. That was a double callback. It was.

Chad [00:50:17]:
Good. Pretty awesome.

Dave [00:50:18]:
Yeah. So it's creating 2 categories of faith in James chapter 2, a kind of faith that saves and a kind of faith that doesn't, which I think is a whole huge theme in John's gospel as well. Yeah. Right. Because in John, don't you have in chapter 2 the very end of chapter 2, John records Jesus speaking, and then it says, and all the people believed. At that point, you're like, oh, all the angels in heaven are rejoicing. Right. And then it doesn't say that.

Dave [00:50:48]:
It says, but as for Jesus, he didn't put his trust as him in them because he knew what was in their hearts. You're like, wait. What is going on here? And then as the book develops, you start to learn there's a kind of true faith and a false faith. Right? And that but the word faith is used to talk about both. Sorry. That was kind of a meandering there.

Chad [00:51:09]:
No. Not at all. Not at all.

Dave [00:51:11]:
Yummy yummy yummy good stuff.

Chad [00:51:15]:
So what does all this mean for day to day living here in America?

Dave [00:51:20]:
We gotta make sure we're baptized and do a lot of good work so that we can go to heaven. Yes.

Greg [00:51:24]:
Can we talk a little bit about the 1st and second great awakenings? Sure. So the the first great awakening was the 17 thirties, 17 forties. And this was George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards. And they were this was a this was a very reformed style of preaching, salvation by grace alone, and this led to great revival across Europe. And and it was a really strong awakening. It was it was getting back to the word of God, people reading the word, prayer, and a genuine repentance as a as a response to that. And then, this guy named Charles Finney was born right before the turn of the century in 17/92. So he gets saved in Charles Finney gets saved in 18/21, and he's starting to get into this new kind of theology.

Greg [00:52:21]:
And this new thing is happening too as as the west is being explored, the west is opening up here in in America. There's this great western pioneering spirit that's developing in America. Mhmm. This can do kind of attitude, this pull yourself up by the bootstraps, this you you know, we still have this today that the Americans, we can do anything.

Dave [00:52:45]:
Yeah. The rugged individual.

Greg [00:52:46]:
Yep. The rugged individualism, and it fits right in with Pelagianism.

Dave [00:52:51]:
Yeah.

Greg [00:52:52]:
This, like, I can do anything. Like, I have it in me to be able to do it. This is, like, this is ingrained in Americans. Like, this is who we are. And and this came out in Phinney's preaching and the the Plagianism, and it was part of the part of the philosophy behind what he's doing. And his preaching really rejected salvation by grace alone, And it came to be these great appeals that you can change. You can make the choice. You just need to come forward.

Greg [00:53:29]:
And this has really crept into or just continued in the church Yeah. But really resurfaced in the church now with altar calls and this idea that that if we just present the gospel in the right package, if we present it in the right way, if we just get rid of enough offense, if we make it palatable enough, if we make it kind enough, if we make it welcoming enough, if we can just make people feel good, then we can help them make this decision. If we can make Jesus appealing enough, we can help them decide to follow him. Right. And it's it's Pelagianism and it's a trap.

Dave [00:54:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because it leads to a methodology based instead of a grace and god's drawing. Yeah. Yeah. So it puts it puts the responsibility in a sense on the convincer. And so you use all sorts of gimmicky techniques and you end up making a lot of really big compromises because persuading becomes the goal. Yeah.

Dave [00:54:41]:
Instead of allowing God to draw people. So the simplicity in my mind, the simplicity of the gospel is enough, Say it clearly, say it plainly, say it with passion, and then let God take care of the result. And you see it modern preachers. I don't hope you don't mind me talking about a modern preacher. I was I was hearing listening to one person and, like, well, we don't want to talk about the old testament because when people hear the, quote, myths of the Old Testament, now they're gonna get turned off to God. So what I heard him say was because people don't like the story of the stories in the old testament and they think they're myths, and he seemed to be agreeing that they were myths, they will reject. So that put responsibility on the humans to persuade unbelievers to become Christians. Right.

Dave [00:55:35]:
As opposed to saying, hey, I am responsible to get the word out, to get the gospel out. When I do that, then God does the saving and I leave the results to him, and I don't have to compromise my method or my message anymore in order to accomplish that. And Finney was, like, really did some freaky stuff. Right? I mean, it was like Yeah. That he was kind of the precursor to the modern really wacko religious experience movement.

Chad [00:56:04]:
Mhmm. Yeah. And from my standpoint, that does a disservice not that does a disservice to everybody. Because at that point, all you're doing is you're installing a behavioral pattern, a cognitive behavioral pattern in the listener. Mhmm.

Dave [00:56:20]:
That

Chad [00:56:20]:
that's what you're attempting to do. And that's not what the grace of God is about. That's not what the love of God is, and everybody misses out. You miss out in your service and your preaching. You miss out in actually investing in people, and those people miss out because they're tricked into thinking they're okay, because they said the things and they do the things. Mhmm. If you say the thing and you do the things, you're fine.

Greg [00:56:46]:
Yeah.

Chad [00:56:47]:
And it's unrepentant, unchanged hearts that you end up with.

Dave [00:56:53]:
Yeah. And dead ones. You get a church full of goats. You do. To use the sheep and goats metaphor.

Chad [00:56:58]:
And they're not the greatest of all

Dave [00:56:59]:
time. Goats. Oh, took me a second. That was good.

Greg [00:57:05]:
I was like Oh, wow.

Dave [00:57:07]:
I was no. I was looking like, who's called who? Yeah. I I thought there was some other reference other than the g o a t.

Chad [00:57:15]:
Yeah.

Dave [00:57:15]:
Sorry. I'm not a New England fan. So I am. Yeah.

Greg [00:57:20]:
Or a Michigan fan.

Dave [00:57:21]:
Yeah. Could be.

Greg [00:57:22]:
Well, I just I just wanted to go on with that. Yeah. No. No. So, like, Finney Finney did all of these outlandish things trying to manipulate people into making decisions, into coming forward, into choosing. And, like, the church gets so caught up in that. And,

Dave [00:57:41]:
like The 12 verses of just as I am from my childhood?

Greg [00:57:45]:
So, like like, in a in a in a club, in a bar Mhmm. The DJ, like a a quote good DJ, has their their set that they play, and they they run through cycles of music. Like, gotta play the upbeat music to get them on the floor, but every so many after so many minutes, you're supposed to bring it down. And it's not so that everybody gets close and dance. You bring it down so that they go back to the bar to get more drinks because that's what the bar owner wants them to do. Right. And then they get their drinks, and then you bring it back up, and you get everybody excited. And then you and you're manipulating the emotions of everybody who's in the bar, in the club so that you can cycle them through different behaviors to get them to do different things, and that's what good DJs do.

Greg [00:58:32]:
Yeah. And churches are literally and you take that into concerts and take that into and churches are taking all of these principles and bringing them into their service and bringing up the lights for this and bringing down the lights for this and bringing up the music for this and bringing down the music for this

Chad [00:58:52]:
and

Greg [00:58:52]:
playing with the the hazer, the fog machine, the hazer for this. And and they're trying to manipulate emotions and feelings to get a response from people rather than allowing the word of God to convict men, allowing the spirit of God to work, and allowing God, the only one who can change a heart, heart. Because we can we can manipulate people. We Yeah. We can. We can make people do a lot of things. And when we make people do things, we then have so much work to do to keep them doing those things. Yeah.

Greg [00:59:32]:
And and churches are so busy doing behavior correction because that's all they've done is manipulated behaviors in the first place.

Dave [00:59:41]:
Yep.

Greg [00:59:42]:
And we're caught up in the business of behavior correction and modification because we've not allowed God to do the work through the preaching of his word.

Dave [00:59:51]:
You know, I joked about the 12 verses suggest as I am. But I I remember being in a Christian school, 8th grade, and they brought in an evangelist. And by golly, he was gonna have everybody in this stage down on the floor the end of the week. And I didn't wanna go down, but I was like, let's get this over with. I was like and I was one of 5 people that did not go down, and I looked back up and I was so proud of those 5 people because even I knew at that pretty young age that this was manipulation. Yeah. Like, he did everything but asked if come down forward if you love your mother. I have the feeling that how many people came down front, got put on his newsletter for support or whatever.

Dave [01:00:34]:
Oh, yeah. And if we think about I mean, then look. I'm gonna I'm probably gonna hurt some feelings here. Somebody out there is gonna be mad at me. But if you think about how we design youth ministry, I remember making a lot of very emotional decisions at the end of a week of camp. You don't eat very well. You you just pack yourself full of sugar. Your sleep isn't great.

Dave [01:00:56]:
And then every day, you're you get closer to closer and you get you hear the evangelist. Yeah. And by the end of the week, then they do the fire. And at the fire, it's like, oh, we're gonna go, and we're never gonna see these people again. There's all sorts of emotion. And I'm not saying nothing good ever happened at camp. Right. But I'm saying that's structured for a lot of really, really man based decisions to come out.

Dave [01:01:19]:
And I know most of my camp decisions were gone in a week. Basically, I was being manipulated into making a decision and it didn't last.

Chad [01:01:28]:
Yeah. Because once the system's gone.

Dave [01:01:30]:
Yeah.

Chad [01:01:31]:
So what I'm hearing you both say is, if I did wanna get into ministry, my psychology degree could be useful at some churches. Right?

Dave [01:01:41]:
Well, it could be an evil tool or a good tool.

Chad [01:01:45]:
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Dave [01:01:46]:
Okay. No. But I I do think that the psychology degree can be helpful, but I think people use psychological principles to manipulate instead of saying, okay, let's recognize manipulation Right. And let's avoid it. Yeah. Because if it's true that we grow when God uses the word of God by the spirit of God in our lives, that's a pretty simple formula. It's not shave their heads, keep them sleepless for a week Yeah. Tire them out, get them emotionally jacked up because they're not gonna see this girl they met ever again because she goes back to California when you were from Maine or something, and then do an invitation at the campfire.

Dave [01:02:29]:
You know, you get to throw your stick in the fire if you tell a story about how you changed your life. You know? When you're young enough, you just wanna

Greg [01:02:36]:
Or even, like, let's stop talking about youth groups, but but, like, even just churches, like, we're gonna do a series on fixing your marriage. We're gonna do a series on fixing your finances. We're gonna do a series on whatever it may be, and we're gonna attract people in because because they're interested and they care about these subjects. We're going to put on an entertaining show. We're going to meet felt needs. We're gonna connect emotionally and sociologically with these people all in a high impact, high energy environment, and then we're gonna ask them to make decisions Yeah. Rather than just preaching the word of God and

Dave [01:03:22]:
and You you don't wanna save marriages? No. You don't want you don't want finances to fix?

Greg [01:03:27]:
I don't wanna save somebody's marriage because then I'm the keeper of that marriage for the rest of their marriage.

Dave [01:03:34]:
Right. No. I you know that was a joke. But Yeah. Well, no. No. But it does sound in in a sense, it sounds like you're being really, like, I don't care about marriage. I don't care about.

Dave [01:03:44]:
You're saying you care more about it. You you actually care more about the marriage than the person who

Greg [01:03:50]:
Right. Yeah. I

Chad [01:03:51]:
because because if you're creating genuine believers

Dave [01:03:55]:
Mhmm.

Chad [01:03:55]:
With a repentant transformed heart, the rest will take care of itself. Yeah.

Dave [01:03:59]:
The final Do you ever do a bible series on I'm setting you up for No. Any answer. Would you ever do a bible series on God's view of marriage?

Greg [01:04:06]:
Absolutely. 100%.

Dave [01:04:08]:
In the in the in the midst of doing that, you would probably save some marriages. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, you would just package it as, like, comes in your

Greg [01:04:15]:
As 5 steps to saving your marriage?

Dave [01:04:17]:
Mhmm. Oh, so I okay. I have I've been to a few mega churches in my life. So I was visiting a church. It was exactly what you're talking about. And this is probably a good example. So it was advice on marriage And of the 5 keys to a successful marriage, 2 of them were found in the bible. Mhmm.

Dave [01:04:42]:
And one one was even, like, don't get married too quickly. Make sure your engagement is more than 6 months. Mhmm. And I was, like, okay. So what about those arranged marriages in the Bible where you Right. You met

Chad [01:04:56]:
them at the marriage. Yeah.

Dave [01:04:58]:
Yeah. So you're like, and I walked away and my it was funny because I think it was the beginning of my of the end of my friends attending that

Greg [01:05:07]:
church. Yeah.

Dave [01:05:08]:
So I get what you're saying. I I was just I was just a little concerned that people wouldn't hear that the way you want them to hear. Yeah. Yeah. But

Chad [01:05:16]:
But through the magic of editing and some psychological manipulation, our listeners will hear what I want them to hear.

Dave [01:05:27]:
Woah. So I

Chad [01:05:27]:
hate to say it, but we are getting close on time. What do we have for wrap up on

Dave [01:05:32]:
I just preach the whole council again. Just, and I, like, I know it sounds like a broken record, but I think the easiest way to do that and and not fall into the trap of of preaching what your hobby horses are is preach through the Bible.

Greg [01:05:49]:
Yeah. And the reason grace is amazing is because you did nothing and God did everything. And the moment that you add to it, it cheapens grace. And and the moment you say that you had a hand in your salvation, that you took part in this, that you contributed even a minute amount to it, it makes it it just trivializes god god's work. It dirties it. It it is salvation by grace alone because only god could do what man could not do.

Dave [01:06:24]:
He saved us. Sure. I'm gonna say it. Yep. Good stuff. Good.

Chad [01:06:29]:
Yeah. It is good stuff. I won't even take your cookies for that one day because it is good stuff. Okay. So that's part 2 of our 6 part series on the 5 solace, which watch. I'm I'm saying this. It's gonna be 7 or 8 parts by the time we're done with it. But if you have something else that you wanna hear after we're on the other side of the 5 solas

Dave [01:06:52]:
Or questions about what we're saying.

Chad [01:06:54]:
Yes. Absolutely. Please let us know at the fish at catfishministries.com. Once again, it's

Greg [01:06:59]:
the fish at

Chad [01:06:59]:
catfishministries.com. Thank you so much for your time, for listening. We know your time is important to you and, we're glad you could spend it with us. So thank you so much. Any closing thoughts, gentlemen? You know you're curious.

Greg [01:07:15]:
Oh, you want me to share the thought?

Chad [01:07:20]:
Not anymore. Great.

Dave [01:07:21]:
This is why we can't have good things, Craig.

Greg [01:07:27]:
Get catfished America.

Chad [01:07:43]:
Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries. Ministries. We hope you learned something with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it. Please subscribe and leave a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee dot com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.