The Five Solas: Soli Deo Gloria (Timeless) - Part 5 of a 6 Part Series

In part 5 of our 6-part series on The Five Solas, we take time to understand the idea of "Glory to God Alone".   What are the theological roots of this idea, and we spend some time trying our best to find some Bible verses about the glory of God.

Thank you for listening!

To enquire about advertising with Catfish Ministries, LLC send an email to thefish@catfishministires.com. Find us on the web at www.catfishministries.com

Transcript

Speaker A [00:00:02]:
So let's hit some passages.

Speaker B [00:00:04]:
Let's are there any passages about the glory of God?

Speaker A [00:00:31]:
Alright. Did you know that Robert Schuler commented on the the reformation? Did he? Yes. He said that it was a mistake for them to focus on God centered theology. He said they should have been more man centered. Is that a shock? Well, not really.

Speaker C [00:00:49]:
Wasn't it they weren't achieving their potentiality.

Speaker A [00:00:52]:
Right. And right? No. This is this this will come back in the discussion, I'm sure, towards the end.

Speaker C [00:00:57]:
Okay.

Speaker A [00:00:58]:
Because the methodological implications of soli, deo, Gloria.

Speaker B [00:01:03]:
So how do we say this in soli deo Gloria? Yeah.

Speaker A [00:01:09]:
It's not soli. Soli. What? Okay. Hold on here.

Speaker B [00:01:13]:
You'd have been 6068.

Speaker A [00:01:17]:
Sixties. Born 68.

Speaker B [00:01:19]:
K. You are just under the wire.

Speaker A [00:01:21]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Truly, Janice. Mhmm. Very proud of that. I drank out of a water hose. Oh, there it is. I I went skateboarding without headgear and elbow protectors.

Speaker A [00:01:37]:
Got scars to show it. Yeah. Nice.

Speaker B [00:01:44]:
So what's new these days? Any any interesting news? Any,

Speaker C [00:01:49]:
you know, just getting ready for a wedding.

Speaker A [00:01:52]:
Oh, right. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:01:53]:
Yeah.

Speaker A [00:01:55]:
It's gonna be exciting.

Speaker C [00:01:56]:
It's kind of exciting. Yeah. For for our, you know, listeners on all 6 continents. Mhmm. Now, you know, my my second born Asia. My second born son's getting married.

Speaker A [00:02:12]:
Very cool. In, which means you've got, what, 3 3, 4 years before grandchild?

Speaker C [00:02:18]:
Okay. Let's not put any pressure on him. No. That's not pressure

Speaker A [00:02:22]:
on him. He's not in the room.

Speaker C [00:02:23]:
He's getting married in 2 days.

Speaker A [00:02:24]:
Yeah. Right. I don't

Speaker C [00:02:26]:
know when our listeners will be listening to this, but 2 days from right now. Yeah. From the recording time.

Speaker A [00:02:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Exciting

Speaker B [00:02:36]:
stuff. Mhmm. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:02:38]:
Yeah. I'm I'm all calm. They're not Yeah. They're they're

Speaker A [00:02:43]:
Any meltdowns yet? I don't know about meltdowns.

Speaker C [00:02:47]:
They're they're realizing how many things they don't have done that they need to get done, and, you know

Speaker A [00:02:55]:
That's why I stayed out of the wedding plans for me. I basically just the most I did. Well, I mean, I did the weddings for both mine, but the day of my daughters, I just ran errands. It was great. Didn't hear anything. You know, no meltdowns that I know of, but just kinda drove around. Oh, you need something picked up? You need it to go. Okay.

Speaker A [00:03:18]:
I'm back. I'll go do this.

Speaker B [00:03:20]:
Yep. It was great.

Speaker A [00:03:21]:
It was a great day.

Speaker C [00:03:22]:
And this week, I met a patient, and, he I I said, how long have the 2 of you been married? And he said, 71 years. Oh, dude. And I congratulated the 2 of them, and I asked him, what's the secret? And he said, keep your mouth shut. That was his secret. Did he

Speaker B [00:03:44]:
say that right in front

Speaker C [00:03:45]:
of her? He did. He did. Mhmm.

Speaker B [00:03:50]:
So he'll be back there soon.

Speaker A [00:03:52]:
Typical. Typical view of marriage right there. Keep it off shut. Happy wife. Happy life. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:04:02]:
Boy, I'm gonna get in trouble if I keep talking

Speaker B [00:04:04]:
about I was gonna say yeah. That's

Speaker C [00:04:08]:
uh-huh. Come on, Dave.

Speaker B [00:04:11]:
Nice. Now I have a coworker that he's getting married in August. And First time? First time. Okay. And they just got engaged, like, a month ago, and he said they're both starting to feel, like, overwhelmed and and everything is, like, we might we might push it back a bit. That's not gonna be a big deal, but still, he's we might push it. I was just like, you know what? If the flowers are red instead of yellow or whatever or, you know, the little stuff, nobody's gonna remember any of that.

Speaker A [00:04:47]:
Like, seriously? Yeah. I'm trying to trying to remember if I remember the color of the flowers.

Speaker C [00:04:55]:
Weren't they black and white?

Speaker A [00:04:57]:
Ouch. No. Actually actually, I do don't laugh. I do know the color scheme that my wife used on our wedding because it was so unusual. It was hard not to remember. It was peach and seafoam green. It wasn't green. It was seafoam green.

Speaker A [00:05:14]:
Wasn't orangey. It was peach. Peach and seafoam green.

Speaker B [00:05:19]:
So what year did you get married?

Speaker A [00:05:22]:
1990. Okay. It's an easy day to remember. Mhmm. Graduated from college. Bam. Yeah. Married.

Speaker A [00:05:29]:
Bam. Right. Had babies 5 years later.

Speaker B [00:05:33]:
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:05:34]:
Hey, baby. 5 years later. Right.

Speaker B [00:05:36]:
Yeah. Because my sister got married around that time, and it was Sifong Green.

Speaker A [00:05:41]:
Very popular. I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. The one piece of advice I would give anybody who's getting married, the man Mhmm. Is make sure your shoes are comfortable. Yeah. Because I didn't try my shoes on because the size said it was my size.

Speaker A [00:05:55]:
So I didn't try it on the night before, and I put the shoes on. And about 3 minutes later, my feet were killing me. Mhmm. And during the ceremony, my feet were killing me. And I'm sitting there, unlaced them during the reception. My feet were killing me.

Speaker C [00:06:13]:
And when you were dancing?

Speaker A [00:06:15]:
We didn't have dancing at our wedding. We went to we were my daughter had dancing at the wedding. Oh. We did not have dancing at the wedding. We went to a Pantyhose Baptist Joanna went to a Pantyhose Baptist Church.

Speaker C [00:06:26]:
Pantyhose Baptist. Yeah. You've never heard

Speaker A [00:06:29]:
of that? It's the kind of churches where the women have to wear pantyhose with their dresses, or else they're not godly. I've never heard that term. Wow. Yeah. Very strict. They wouldn't let us they wouldn't let us play a very cool song called God Bless Joanna because it was too secular. Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:06:48]:
We use pocket belts canon also.

Speaker C [00:06:50]:
Trying to think of the biblical reference for the pantyhose.

Speaker A [00:06:53]:
Yeah. There is no biblical reference. It's just a modesty issue. You know, women wearing clothes pertaining to women, they didn't literally do that, but I'll give you an example. And if anybody here is from Joanna's old church, sorry. I'm throwing you under the bus. But, beep, beep. Confused me for a second.

Speaker A [00:07:12]:
Alright. So the first day I went to visit her home, and the first happened to be the 1st day I went to her brother's basketball game at the Christian school Mhmm. That they were at. And I'm I come back from college, not Bible College, but it's college, nonetheless. And, I'm wearing jeans and a t shirt. Oh my lord. She looks at me. Joanna looks at me, and her jaw kinda drops, And she her eyes get huge, and she gets this really, like, embarrassed look on her face.

Speaker A [00:07:52]:
And she was like, Dave, please. I'm begging you. Oh, no. Please just go get a slacks and a polo on. And I was like, no. No. I put a polo on for her, and I went down into that gym. And it's Friday night.

Speaker A [00:08:11]:
Mhmm. And the ladies are wearing full Sunday dresses to the basketball game, and the men are most of them are wearing suits. So they either didn't change from work if they were professionals, or they went home if they were blue collar and changed. And I was like, okay. This is a very different a very different backgrounds that my wife and I came from. So yeah. Yeah. So that's a Pantenehosa Baptist Church.

Speaker B [00:08:40]:
Okay. Yeah. I think I have a friend from college that visited one of those shortly after he got married. He was looking for a new church. Him and his wife went. They they visited this place. They realized about they got a lot of looks because he didn't have a tie on, and she was wearing slacks, not a dress. I love slacks.

Speaker B [00:09:00]:
Like,

Speaker A [00:09:02]:
it's kind of the old Daniel's Baptist word for pants was slacks.

Speaker B [00:09:06]:
Yeah. And so, they tried talking to a couple people afterwards, but they wouldn't talk to them. And then finally, this, you know, older couple comes up and says, here, and they hand them a bible track. You know, the the the cross thing, the cross is a bridge thing. Like, here's how you can come to Christ.

Speaker A [00:09:26]:
They assume they were unsaved because Yeah. Yeah. So I I grew up in Baptist churches that were very different than that, so I don't I'm not slamming on all Baptists here. Sure. Just some of them. Just the pantyhose ones. K.

Speaker C [00:09:40]:
Were were you in Bible college when you got engaged, or were you

Speaker A [00:09:44]:
done with it? Nope. I was in bible college. I got thrown into the pond.

Speaker C [00:09:49]:
That was the tradition?

Speaker A [00:09:51]:
Yeah. We had a number of traditions, but one of them was to ring the bell in the in the so we went to a college that was used to be a Catholic monastery, and there was a bell that was right outside of the library, which was the chapel bell, and it went all the way to the top of the tower. The women would ring that, and then the guys after hours, we had to be back in the dorm by 10:30 unless we had work permit to be out. And they would one day soon after your engagement, they would come in and gang tackle you and carry you out. I I gave I put up a good fight. They had at least one guy that outweighed me by about £50. So finally, I just gave up because I was like, I'm not gonna I'm like, all I'm doing is wasting energy. So after a good I had to I had to show him that, you know, it was go time.

Speaker A [00:10:39]:
I could go. I was waiting for it. There you

Speaker C [00:10:42]:
go. It's go time.

Speaker A [00:10:43]:
Waiting. I I thought you might be, so I gave it to you. But yeah. So then they threw me in the pond, and the pond was very squishy, but the bottom of it. Oh. Yeah. Like, mucky and Mucky. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:10:58]:
Well, it's the Dave stories of days of engagement night. That's how we used to do it in the 1500.

Speaker B [00:11:09]:
So, did you did you go

Speaker C [00:11:10]:
down and send a telegraph to your parents to, let them know that you were engaged?

Speaker A [00:11:15]:
True story. We had one phone on the floor.

Speaker B [00:11:19]:
Oh my.

Speaker A [00:11:20]:
So there was

Speaker B [00:11:21]:
to to keep the to keep the demons localized. No. It just

Speaker A [00:11:26]:
it was a pay phone. We didn't have cell phones, and we weren't have we weren't allowed to have room cell phones in a room until

Speaker B [00:11:37]:
my senior year. How about you? Did your esteemed institute have any Yeah. You got flagpoleed. Flagpoleed?

Speaker C [00:11:45]:
Yeah. Do tell.

Speaker A [00:11:47]:
Yes. I wanna hear about this.

Speaker C [00:11:48]:
Yeah. No. When you when you got engaged, it was a betrayal of the brotherhood.

Speaker A [00:11:53]:
Oh, yes. Of course.

Speaker C [00:11:54]:
Yes. So the guys on your floor would, would tackle you or gather you or whatever. Mhmm. And they would take you, and they would secure you to the flagpole, which ended up being a lamppost because of renovations, whatever. I don't know. Sure. And so they they did that to me, but, I'm kind of larger than the average guy. Bigger.

Speaker C [00:12:17]:
Stronger.

Speaker A [00:12:17]:
Just look at his picture.

Speaker C [00:12:18]:
Some people would say it looks like mob enforcer or something.

Speaker A [00:12:21]:
That's what I say.

Speaker C [00:12:23]:
So they actually there were guys on my floor that were, like, the public safety officers for our campus. So they actually brought them in, and, like, they're trying to wrestle me down. And once they got a handcuff on me like, once you have a handcuff on, you do whatever they want because they hurt really, really bad. Mhmm. Wow. So once they get the handcuffs

Speaker A [00:12:42]:
Yeah. I know from my background. I've been handcuffed a lot.

Speaker C [00:12:48]:
We're gonna have a special edition episode 1 one one summer. It's gonna be called the things Dave says. It's just gonna be, like

Speaker A [00:12:57]:
Well, you're the one who said you got flappy.

Speaker C [00:12:59]:
It's gonna be 45 minutes of the things Dave says. It's gonna be, like, delightful. It's gonna be so much fun. The things Dave says. Hi. Right here, you can, like, you can insert, like, it's go time.

Speaker A [00:13:15]:
That's right. Go time insert. It's only worse than that.

Speaker C [00:13:18]:
So, and and and then they so they carried me down, and they they put me up in the flagpole, and they put me on trial.

Speaker A [00:13:26]:
So I like this. This is a good

Speaker C [00:13:28]:
finish. They did. So they had secured from my personal belongings some letters that I had written and exchanged back and forth with my, at the time fiance, and they publicly read them. So my fiance's the the women on her floor had gathered too because they knew that this was going to be happening. And, so they they read these letters as evidence.

Speaker A [00:13:54]:
Did they did they read them ahead of time?

Speaker C [00:13:56]:
Oh, I'm I'm sure they

Speaker A [00:13:57]:
Did anybody ever get kicked out of Moody for having these letters read?

Speaker C [00:14:03]:
Again, I'd the things Dave says. So so they read, and it's very dramatic. And they they jeer, and and they roast, and they boo, and they hiss. And and then they and and then they when all the evidence is presented that I betrayed the brother brotherhood, they all vote and they pronounce me guilty. And then in and then they, cover you in shaving cream. Like, everybody's got a can of shaving cream. They cover you in shaving cream, and then then they leave you there. And the only way you can be released is, for your fee your fiance to come and kiss you, which at that Bible College, the only time you can kiss on campus is when you're being released from being psycho.

Speaker A [00:14:50]:
Very similar.

Speaker C [00:14:51]:
Yeah. That's the only time you're allowed to have such a public display of affection.

Speaker A [00:14:56]:
Yes. And that happened at the ringing of the bell for us.

Speaker C [00:14:59]:
Yeah. So That's

Speaker A [00:15:00]:
the only

Speaker B [00:15:00]:
way you could get out of the pond?

Speaker A [00:15:02]:
No. No. No. The the kiss happened at the legal kiss happened at the bell ringing ceremony. What? So, yeah, legal? The legal kiss Oh, my god. When he wouldn't get trumped up

Speaker C [00:15:13]:
for. So were there times you didn't get caught kissing on campus?

Speaker A [00:15:19]:
Yes. Just saying.

Speaker C [00:15:22]:
Breaking the law. Breaking the law.

Speaker A [00:15:23]:
Dun dun dun dun. Stolen water is sweet. Stolen kisses are sweet.

Speaker C [00:15:31]:
Now somebody's gonna be embarrassed. Come on, Dave.

Speaker A [00:15:36]:
I You sound like a street urchin.

Speaker B [00:15:37]:
I I am going to have to isolate that comment as well.

Speaker A [00:15:41]:
Stolen kisses are sweet.

Speaker C [00:15:44]:
Yes. My precious.

Speaker A [00:15:50]:
I can't wait till there's my suggested edits on this one.

Speaker C [00:15:53]:
I don't know. Like, when we're done with this, should we go and get my son and, like, do some kind of

Speaker A [00:15:58]:
we should do something.

Speaker B [00:15:59]:
This just got interesting.

Speaker C [00:16:02]:
In date. Yes. Be like, dad, what are you doing? Just wait 3 weeks from now when we release this episode of Catfish Ministries. You'll understand everything. We have

Speaker B [00:16:12]:
to do this, son. We're gonna

Speaker A [00:16:14]:
take you to tie you to a pole and throw you into a pond, and then make your fiance ring a bell. It didn't combine well.

Speaker B [00:16:28]:
Yeah. That's okay. So my alma mater esteemed as it was would have drinking parties for a slightly different reason than the usual drinking parties, and it would be because you got engaged.

Speaker A [00:16:43]:
Okay.

Speaker B [00:16:43]:
But the party This

Speaker A [00:16:44]:
is another excuse. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:16:45]:
This is a

Speaker B [00:16:46]:
the party was gonna happen no matter what. Right? It's just now the excuse is instead of it's a day that ends with why Yeah. Lenny got engaged.

Speaker A [00:16:56]:
Alright. So Soli Deo Gloria. Yes. Soli deo Gloria. Not a solo to be sung by me.

Speaker B [00:17:03]:
No. There are a

Speaker A [00:17:04]:
few musical themes by that.

Speaker B [00:17:07]:
Really? Yeah.

Speaker A [00:17:09]:
Yeah. That that's a whole if you look up silly silly deal with Gloria, you'll get a whole sub article in in Wikipedia on the musical.

Speaker C [00:17:18]:
You wanna sing one for us, Dave?

Speaker A [00:17:19]:
Nope. I don't believe you. Nope. Okay.

Speaker B [00:17:25]:
Well, then I don't believe you. Okay. Don't. Sole Deo Gloria. The 5th solo in our 6 part series on the 5 solas.

Speaker A [00:17:35]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:17:36]:
To the glory of God alone. I almost said to the glory of Christ alone.

Speaker A [00:17:39]:
To

Speaker B [00:17:40]:
the glory of God alone.

Speaker C [00:17:41]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Speaker B [00:17:43]:
So, the previous 4 solas, I went ahead and scraped my way through history to kind of establish the context of the church, but I think we've done that, like, 3 episodes in a row. It's getting a little rote because, really, it's the same stuff again and again and again. Right? I mean, you find out the drift from the original scripture, the addition of all these things, you know Layered traditions. Yeah. Traditions and and concepts and and theology that's found nowhere in the Bible, but through habit and reinforcement and, you know, the power and intention and desire of men, it gets given the same elevation as scripture or a direct teaching of Christ. Let's just say we understand that there was a lot of drift between the end of the inspiration of Holy scripture and where Martin Luther finds himself in 15/15 when he nails the 95 thesis.

Speaker A [00:18:47]:
15/17.

Speaker B [00:18:48]:
15/17. Okay. 15/17 when Luther nails the 95 thesis to

Speaker C [00:18:55]:
That was the first Halloween.

Speaker B [00:18:57]:
Yes. The first Halloween. K.

Speaker A [00:19:00]:
We were playing a little loose with the facts there, but that's weird. I think all hellow's eve was Come on. You don't think you don't

Speaker B [00:19:08]:
think when he was hammering those things to the wall, he wasn't yelling

Speaker C [00:19:11]:
trick or treat? October 31st is right now.

Speaker A [00:19:16]:
I I understand that. But Halloween is the eve of all hallows. I know. All Saint Eve. I I just didn't think it was funny. Just keep up, Dave. Me? Keep up? Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A [00:19:32]:
Yeah. So, so I do have a question to start us off. Okay. Let's go. When we talk about soli Deo Gloria. Right? To God, to God alone be the glory. What is that responding to? Because we've seen that all of the solas have some sort of a historical background that they're responding to. I've actually been able to find 3 different suggestions.

Speaker A [00:19:56]:
I think this is one of the more interesting ones because there's it's hard to find anything concrete that they were responding to. So I don't know. What did you guys find along the way? I found 3 different ones, but

Speaker B [00:20:07]:
I can throw my semi educated guess out there.

Speaker A [00:20:10]:
Sure.

Speaker B [00:20:11]:
I I have a suspicion that it's responding to the greater church tradition and a lot of the honorifics that went with church office. Yeah. So veneration or

Speaker A [00:20:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. So why are we giving all these humans glory

Speaker B [00:20:26]:
instead of God? Yeah.

Speaker A [00:20:27]:
Why why seems to be 1.

Speaker B [00:20:29]:
Yeah. Why do we have to wear special clothes when the bishop comes around? Why do we have to, you know, say praise be to Mary or or whatever else or say certain prayers? Mary

Speaker A [00:20:38]:
full of grace.

Speaker B [00:20:39]:
Yeah. Exactly. Which apparently is not worship, but, it's federation, not worship. Of course. But, yeah, I mean, that I think I think that's what it's a response to myself.

Speaker A [00:20:52]:
I do think that is at least one strong possibility. Have you heard anything, Greg?

Speaker C [00:20:57]:
No. I think it's largely that. I I think there's nothing new under the sun. And from the beginning of recorded scripture, man has just wanted to take control and and wanted to do it himself, and God is jealous for his glory. And we see that through the old testament, God is jealous for his glory be and no one can do it. No no one can provide salvation but God. You know, it's like any any any man can relate to this. If you want it done right, you do it yourself.

Speaker C [00:21:27]:
Mhmm. And the only one who could do this right was God. Mhmm. And he did it, and he did it right. Yeah. And for anyone else to come along and to add to it or to, to change it

Speaker A [00:21:40]:
or to say credit or to say it

Speaker C [00:21:41]:
was done any other way or, yeah, to take take

Speaker A [00:21:41]:
take credit for it or

Speaker B [00:21:42]:
or to

Speaker A [00:21:42]:
tell people

Speaker C [00:21:42]:
they need they need to do extra things is stealing his glory. Mhmm. And and it and it's it's right that he becomes enraged by it, that he's that he's jealous, that he is is just in being jealous, and and that's why it it comes to this.

Speaker A [00:22:04]:
Yeah. So what you're describing seems me and if I'm putting words in your mouth, tell me because I don't wanna do that. It's almost as if what you're describing there is the purpose or the meaning of human history. So in other words, why is all this happening? Is this happening because of man, or is this happening for the sake of man only, or is this happening for the sake of God? That is this huge discussion in all of in all of the history of the church that actually, it sounds like it's a very theoretical question, but it's not. To say it another way, is our theology gonna be man centered, or is it gonna be God centered? And and to just to demonstrate to our listeners how practical this is, if you think about that question, Robert Schuller is probably known to most people because of the Crystal Cathedral. Robert Schuller was probably the father of the megachurch movement. He was known for a number of things. 1, wanting a big church, 2, compromising on theology and methodology in order to accomplish having a large church and advocating for others to do the same.

Speaker A [00:23:17]:
But he made an interesting statement. So he actually made the statement that he thought that it was an error for the reformers to focus on God centered theology, that their their theology should have been more man centric or man centered. And so if you think about who Schuller is, it's a really significant statement for someone who would claim to not be particularly theological to make that statement that the the mistake, the critique, soli deo Gloria to Schuler was a mistake. And you can see how that plays out in his theology as opposed to seeing how the theology plays out in practical ways for people who believe in a in a God centered theology. So that that seems to be a second element. This one's a really hard one to pin down because so many different reformers said things like soli deo Gloria and reflected that, but they don't seem to give a lot of historical context as to why they say it. And part of that, I think, is because it's just a prominent theme in scripture. If you believe in sola scriptura, you're gonna come to sola deo Gloria all over the place.

Speaker A [00:24:26]:
So And maybe a third way is to say, is the purpose of history the salvation of man, or is it the glory of God? And I think we can talk more about that, but those seem to be the man another kind of a slightly different way of saying the man centered versus God centered theology. And it plays out in different denominations and different churches and different methodologies as as you just just look at churches around here.

Speaker C [00:24:48]:
And you can see it in the way that accounts of scripture are taught or that they're preached or that the way Sunday school curriculum is is taught. And you can take, like, one of the most familiar stories from the bible, like David and Goliath. Mhmm. And what is Dave David and Goliath about? David and Goliath is about you know, David is a great example for us and how we can be strong like David was, and how we can face giants like David, and how we can tap no. That that's not

Speaker A [00:25:21]:
yeah. That's not yeah.

Speaker C [00:25:22]:
That's not waiting

Speaker A [00:25:23]:
for you guys to pick up stones and throw them at me. Yeah. I wanted

Speaker C [00:25:24]:
to let you finish before we do that. Yeah. I don't have any stones in here. You don't have any stones.

Speaker B [00:25:33]:
Oh. So

Speaker A [00:25:33]:
We didn't want to get you stoned.

Speaker C [00:25:35]:
Okay. Things David says. Yep. There's another one. So with David and Goliath, like, David, it points us to to Christ as as something better. And, and and we in in David, we see Christ alone, that David is the spirit filled king, and that he alone won the victory that day, that his brothers opposed him entirely, and that he didn't even wear Saul's armor, which he could've wore, and it was all down to David for that. And that grace alone was was seen that day, that he won a victory for all of the troops, that they didn't deserve David to be fighting for them on that day, that, there was no one cheer cheering David on. There were no cheerleaders for him, And that his own people despised him, but grace was on display for them.

Speaker C [00:26:37]:
That faith alone was on display that day, that all you needed to do was look to your champion. The champion was David. All you needed to look do was look and see that David won the battle for you. He was the victor for you. And when they saw, they they shouted and they they surged because he had won the battle for them. And you see scripture alone on display there because the Bible is the herald of David's victory Yep. And what he had accomplished. And the Bible is not about facing your giants.

Speaker C [00:27:11]:
It's not about combat techniques so you can be like David and have a faith like David. It's not about a motivational pep talk to get you ready for the week to go out and conquer the world. It's about Christ alone and faith alone is revealed by scripture alone, and it's all to God's glory alone because he did this for his glory. And it's how we approach everything that we read in scripture. Is it about us, or is it about him? And it's all about him when we look at it that way.

Speaker A [00:27:44]:
Okay? David's rolling his eyes. I did not roll my eyes. I was looking up into the right thinking. Uh-huh. So put some more meat on that because okay. So someone who comes in maybe has without even knowing it has a man centered theology, and and they hear what you just said, and I filter it through what I know. But I what I hear you saying is that when David, not what I, what that person might hear you saying is, well, when it says David, it's not really talking about David. It's talking about Jesus.

Speaker A [00:28:16]:
And that the word Jesus is never there. The word Messiah is never there. So I I I agree with you, but I want you to put some more meat on the bones for us.

Speaker C [00:28:23]:
Right. The things that are happening in the Old Testament, like, it's it's a real account. It's David happening. Mhmm. But things that are happening in the old testament, like David, it there are these things called types Mhmm. Figures, that that are pointing to Christ, showing us of something better that is to come. For example, in, in numbers when God is feeding the nation of Israel with with manna, and then he ends up feeding them with the, quail. He's he's showing them that he'll provide them with with something, but there's something that is better that is to come.

Speaker C [00:29:00]:
When he provides them with water out of the rock, he's he's providing them, but there's something better that is to come. It it's everything is pointing to something better.

Speaker A [00:29:11]:
Because I I had to work through that myself because I came from more I didn't come from a man's own theology, but I didn't translate It took me a while to translate that and how I read the whole bible. Right. So that is a legitimate story about how David, by God's grace and God's work, defeated Goliath. Mhmm. Now it happens to be that David is the forerunner of Jesus. Mhmm. And in the in the flow of redemptive history, he is the seed. He is the the one of the progenitors of the seed who's gonna crush the head of the serpent.

Speaker C [00:29:49]:
Correct.

Speaker A [00:29:49]:
You have other passages, Psalm 110 that says, look. The lord David says, the lord said to my lord, sit at my right hand. So you have this concept of David's greater son who's coming. So in the moment, you don't necessarily see that, but in the flow of the whole redemptive history, you can see that that actually is a story about God's redemption and God's provision, and it ends up being a prefigurement or a typology Mhmm. Of the of the Christ, the Messiah, who's who's gonna come to come to fruition through through Mary. And that that but I don't think that that the story necessarily by itself. Right? You can't know that without putting into the context of the whole scripture. Right.

Speaker A [00:30:40]:
So I do think there is a sense in which you can preach the David story as in a God centered way. And at one level, it's God used David to preserve a nation of Israel and brought glory to himself. And then when we put it then into the context of the whole Bible, we see that he's a forerunner of Christ and a picture of what Jesus is gonna be. So that's kinda how I process it. And because I like I said, I came from a situation where I would have probably my whole life, I heard it preached as you have a giant of a problem. What do you do? Right? When you have a giant of a problem, you need to

Speaker C [00:31:19]:
Have faith like this.

Speaker A [00:31:20]:
Don't put on the armor of of Saul because that was probably don't use orally methodology or whatever, kind of algorizing it. But, anyway, I don't know if that hopefully, that's helpful to our listeners to to hear the man centered versus the God centered approach to to even interpreting the old testament. So and Jesus says the whole Old Testament is talking about him. Right? Which is not to say that every verse talks about him, but that as a whole, the Old Testament talks about

Speaker C [00:31:48]:
Jesus. Because as a whole, it's all pointing to one event. It's all working in one direction.

Speaker A [00:31:54]:
Yeah. It's all going to one climax, specifically to one event. So when you say the one event, you're talking about the birth, like

Speaker C [00:32:06]:
It's going to

Speaker A [00:32:07]:
the Jesus,

Speaker C [00:32:07]:
the cross.

Speaker A [00:32:08]:
Okay. It's all going to the cross. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:32:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. Agree. So did you have more you were going?

Speaker A [00:32:15]:
No. Those those are the 3 different, I think, historical response, reasons why. Right? You see the it's clear that the reformers did see the glory of God as an issue, and you can even see that historically. There's a number of apparently even pubs, public houses, and even Johann Sebastian Bach's church in in Leipzig had on his organ soli Deo Gloria

Speaker C [00:32:44]:
on it,

Speaker A [00:32:45]:
and you would even see those in public houses soli Deo Gloria as like plaques and things. And one one historian from Columbia University, a guy named Rice, said that he said it this way. He said that the reformers were, not my words, they were intoxicated with the majesty of God, which is a really interesting way of saying that. They were fixated on God's glory. So three potential reasons why why the the various reformers focused on The other most obvious one is it's all over the scripture. You just can't get away from it once you see it. Once you see it, it's there almost everywhere. So let's hit some passages.

Speaker B [00:33:24]:
Let's. Are there any passages about the glory of God?

Speaker A [00:33:30]:
Well, isn't this in the Bible? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Speaker B [00:33:36]:
I believe that's a Westminster confession.

Speaker A [00:33:37]:
Oh, that's not in the bible. That's right. I

Speaker B [00:33:39]:
did. But I do love that. It's a

Speaker A [00:33:41]:
great it's a good summary. And it's And I'm not I'm not It's defensible. It's yeah. It's it is. It is. I I do like that Yeah.

Speaker B [00:33:50]:
Comment. So and I Please don't rip it apart, Dave. Oh, I'm not. Oh, I'm not. No.

Speaker A [00:33:55]:
I was just having a little bit of fun because that gets quoted almost as if it is scripture sometimes. I know. And I think that's something we need to guard against because that's a man written statement. I would suggest actually that even though some people try to make it man centered and God centered, I think we have an example of a guy like John Piper who seems to he elevates God a little bit higher in this theme, but he also brings man to a proper place within the overarching God's plan. Because he says, it's the chief end of man is to glorify God, and he says by enjoying him forever. So it's not just the glory of God, but he brings man alongside of that underneath still a little bit, but he kinda combines those 2 rather than saying it's just about the glory. It's just about redemption. He actually kind of ties those 2 together, but but still keeps the proper order of God on top.

Speaker A [00:34:54]:
Good old John Piper. So he's distorting scripture. I mean, salvation is kind of a big theme. I know. You mean you distorted the Westminster statement? Okay. Okay. It took me a second. That was good.

Speaker A [00:35:09]:
I like that. I appreciate that joke. Yeah. Good. Alright. What passage is we gonna hit first?

Speaker C [00:35:16]:
I don't know. What do you got, Dave?

Speaker A [00:35:18]:
I only have a few. So I've got the most important ones. That's all. I was kidding. You can

Speaker C [00:35:23]:
do Ephesians 1? No. Go for it. You weren't.

Speaker A [00:35:26]:
No. I wasn't. I didn't even wanna do the Romans.

Speaker C [00:35:28]:
I didn't even look at that, so go ahead and do Romans.

Speaker A [00:35:31]:
Yeah. Let me start with it.

Speaker C [00:35:32]:
I just assumed you were gonna do

Speaker A [00:35:34]:
Ephesians 1. This is this is my message if I ever candidate at a church. Okay. So basically, the text would be the very end of Romans chapter 11.

Speaker C [00:35:44]:
Mhmm. And

Speaker A [00:35:45]:
then I would dabble in 1212, and it would be this. The gospel we preach leads to God's glory and our transformation. Right? And that would just give me an excuse to preach through the whole book of Romans to talk about why the gospel leads to our glory. Right? Because as we have said many times It's

Speaker C [00:36:02]:
gonna be a very long message.

Speaker A [00:36:04]:
No. It's it would be. It would be. But, hey, we got you gotta know if you're gonna have me preaching. It's gonna be 45 to 55 minutes. Right? Sadly true. Alright. So this is this is how this is how Romans 11 ends in verses 1133.

Speaker C [00:36:20]:
Wait a minute. Where where is the NASB?

Speaker A [00:36:24]:
I'm just it's so hard to hold that thing up above my microphone and read it. I think we can all agree that the book of Romans, particularly chapters 1 through 11 deal particularly with the gospel, especially 1 through 5. Right? And 6 deals with the salvation in the sense of sanctification, and then 9 through 11 deals with, okay, justifying God's view of history or a view of history in light of salvation and explaining how God's still faithful even though it doesn't look like God was faithful to Israel. But that's all tied up with this concept of salvation. And so at the end of chapter 11, he says this, oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God. How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable his ways. For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became his counselor? Or who has first given to him that it might be paid back to him again. For from him and through him and to him are all things.

Speaker A [00:37:33]:
To him be the glory forever. Amen. So fundamentally, the salvation that God offers ends up leading to his glory. And then from there, immediately transition to chapter 12 verses 1 and 2, which is I beseech you therefore because this salvation brings glory to God, it leads to our transformation. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Right? Mhmm. So, I think, ultimately, this is why man centered theology makes salvation the pinnacle of of human history. God centered theology says, yes.

Speaker A [00:38:19]:
Salvation isn't the pinnacle. It's close, but that leads ultimately to God's glory. And I think in terms of implications, we can talk about it later, but it changes how you do church and how you approach doing church because ultimately doing church and doing gospel is about God's glory, not just getting decisions. Speaking of pinnacles, I found

Speaker B [00:38:42]:
a good one. Revelation 4, at the end of history when everything comes to a head. Revelation 49 through 11. Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the one seated on the throne, the one who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders fall down before the one seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne and say, our lord and god, you are worthy to receive glory and honor and power because you have created all things, and by your will, they exist and were created.

Speaker A [00:39:18]:
That's great.

Speaker B [00:39:19]:
Yeah, it's it's the end of history. It's the end of all things, and all that anyone in heaven can do is say again and again Mhmm. That, you know, all glorious to you, God. Mhmm.

Speaker A [00:39:31]:
Now when you say and did you mean like the what did you mean by the end of history? The end of essentially. You mean the goal? Or did you mean the Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because because I think I think it might be helpful for a list some of our listeners to know that the some the word end often theologically means goal. True. Not just the end of something.

Speaker A [00:39:53]:
Right. The, you know, the end of the table or the end of the yard. Right. Or rather it's the goal of something. We use that a lot because we understand that, but I think some of our listeners hopefully will will get some value out of knowing that the end does not mean history is over with. It's right. Right? We have eternity. Absolutely.

Speaker A [00:40:11]:
It's gonna be a cool history. I guess the end of the bad part of history. Right. Amen. Thankfully. Do you want me to do Ephesians 1 since you mentioned it, Greg?

Speaker C [00:40:22]:
Oh, yeah. You can do Ephesians 1.

Speaker A [00:40:24]:
Alright. Ephesians 1 is great. I love I've preached through this a number of times, but Ephesians 13 starts with and Ephesians 13 through 14 is a very famous sentence because it's technically one long Greek sentence. So, technically, they don't do sentences like the way we do. So but, but, basically, you're gonna find that it talks about the 3 members of the trinity and their role in salvation, but it starts and ends with praise to God. So it literally says at the beginning, verse 3, blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ or praise be, right, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before him in love. Skipping down verse 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed us in the beloved, It talks about in him, that is Jesus, we have redemption. Right? He made known to us the mystery, verse 9.

Speaker A [00:41:26]:
We've then obtained an inheritance in verse 11 to the end so that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of his glory. Verse 13. In him, you also, after hearing the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having believed, you were sealed with the spirit of promise. So end of verse 14, again, to the praise of his glory. So the praise for salvation returns to the father, Each member of the trinity, the father choosing, the son redeeming, the spirit sealing, all have a role to play. And even then, right, you have the end of chapter 1, again, dealing with the praise being to the father. And Christ, in this case, is the one who's being praised, but which he brought about in Christ, whom he raised from the dead. This is verse 20 Verse 21, and he seated him far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

Speaker A [00:42:26]:
And he put all things in subjection underneath his feet and gave him the head over the things to the church head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. So once again, even salvation is to return praise to the father. Yeah. Solely to him, Gloria. There you go. To the praise of his glorious mercy. That was my bonus for the day.

Speaker C [00:42:51]:
That was your bonus for the day? Nice. So you do a quick walk through the gospel of John, and, you come to John chap well, starting John chapter 1 verse 14 Says the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and the word is it's talking about Jesus because in in the beginning, it says, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God. And verse 14, the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we have seen his glory and the glory of the one and only who came from the father, full of grace and of truth. And, and it's really interesting here. It says we've seen the glory. If you go back to Exodus chapter 33, Moses asked, God, show me your glory. And and God has to take him and hide him under the cleft of a rock, and he passes over and only his backside shows. And and Moses just gets, like, a glimpse of the glory of God, and his face shines so brightly from that that he has to have a veil on his face when he goes back down to the people.

Speaker C [00:44:01]:
And now the word has become flesh, and he dwells among the people, and it says John says, we have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. You go to chapter 2 verse 1, and this is one of the first miracles that Jesus performs in Cana and Galilee. And it says he revealed his glory, And when he turns the water to wine, he reveals his glory, and the disciples put their faith in him. So his glory is put on display, and the disciples, it it activates their faith. When you see his glory, it activates faith in people, and and they begin to believe him. You jump ahead to John chapter 8 in verse 54, and Jesus says, if I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My father, whom you claim as your father, is the one who glorifies me. He's not the one who's glorifying my himself.

Speaker C [00:45:07]:
The glory that's being revealed is is being revealed because God is doing it through the Holy Spirit. And he's not about he's not self promoting anything that he's doing. He's only doing the will of the father. You go to John chapter 12 verse 23, and it says Jesus answers, and he says, the hour has now come. So we're moving towards something. The hour has now come for the Son of Man to be glorified. So something is going to happen where he is going to be glorified. Waiting for this through all of John's gospel, this this moment, and, really, through all of history, this thing that we're working towards, this hour that he's been talking about that's that's going to happen.

Speaker C [00:45:49]:
And, again, the next verse, verse 12, he says, I tell you the truth, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed, but if it dies, it produces many seeds. And here he's talking about his death and how his death dying and how dying, it's like a seed that goes into the ground. And when he rises up with new life, his glory is going to be his death. This is going to be a very important thing, and this is one of the ironies about John's gospel. Christ's glory is his cross. The cross that he's going to. He's going to die. This is what he came for.

Speaker C [00:46:31]:
He came to die on a cross. So still in chapter 12 verse 32, he says, when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself when I'm lifted up. We like to sing that line in in different songs. I wanna see Jesus lifted high. Yeah. When I'm lifted up, means lifted up on a cross. That's what he's talking about. Open the eyes of my heart, Lord.

Speaker C [00:47:00]:
I wanna see you lifted high. Like, he's lifted high on a cross to be put to death, to be sacrificed. Verse 33, he explains this being lifted high. It says, he said this to show the kind of death he's going to die. See, Jesus is high and lifted up on a cross. That's where he's going to die, and that's his glory. That's what it's about. That's what he's he's it's pointing to.

Speaker C [00:47:30]:
His death is his glory. The cross is his throne. This is what all of history has been pointing to, and his execution is going to be his exaltation. When we talk about glory, like, the glory is the weightiness, the the beauty, the splendor, the honor, and all of that is in the cross for him. And the glory of God is Jesus with his arms stretched out wide, dying on a cross for sinners. Like, that's that's the climax of all of this. That's the goodness of God. That's the weightiness.

Speaker C [00:48:07]:
That's that's the splendor. That's the gravity. That's the the substance of the eternal God. One more verse, John 17 verse 5.

Speaker A [00:48:18]:
Can I get this one in just because it Yeah? Matches because it matches your other one. Yeah. Think in Philippians chapter 2. So speaking of Jesus, says verse 8, chapter 2 of Philippians. Being found in the appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason, also, God highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name so that at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, and those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is lord to the glory of God the father. Brings those 2 together nicely.

Speaker C [00:48:56]:
Yeah. In John 17 verse 5, Jesus is praying, and he says, now, father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. So here, Jesus is pouring himself completely in in obedience and love to the father, and he's about to die to save all those who would believe as he goes to the cross, as he sacrifices himself, and he's going to be glorified and given the glory that he had with the father from the beginning. And to think about this, that from the beginning of time, he has has coexisted with the father and the Holy Spirit for all eternity, sharing for all eternity in perfect love and glory and majesty and honor, and he's now going to be returned to that place of glory and honor and majesty, and it's going to happen when he dies on a cross. And this incredible thing is about to happen when you talk, Dave, about, the response for believers and and how from from the end of Romans chapter 11 going into verse 12 and not being man centered, it being God centered that demands a response from us. So when Jesus prays this so down in in 17 verse 20, Jesus is still praying, and he says, I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they all may be 1, just as you, father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me, I have given to them that they may be 1 even as we are 1, I in them, you in me, that they may be perfectly 1 so that the world may be world may know that you sent me and loved me even as you love me. Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me may be with me where I am to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Speaker C [00:51:19]:
So here Jesus is saying this this love that you loved me with before the foundation of the world, this glory that's been there, I want them now to see this, and I'm going to the cross, and I'm going to die so that they now can be brought in and experience this unity that, God, you and I have, and that they can see and share in this glory that we have. And it's not about them. It's about us, but they're gonna get to be a part of it. And and the response that we have now, it's not about us. It's about him and his glory. And that's what we mean by to to the glory of God alone. We're saved by grace through faith in Christ alone as revealed by scripture alone to the glory of God alone. It's all about him.

Speaker C [00:52:15]:
It's all about what he's done. It's all about the cross. It's all about his glory, and it demands us to respond in a certain way. Mhmm. Love it. Yep.

Speaker A [00:52:28]:
That's all I got. It's good stuff.

Speaker C [00:52:31]:
Oh, I got a good stuff out of date.

Speaker A [00:52:33]:
You did. Yeah. You earned it. That was epic. That was not by my grace. It was you earned that one. That's awful. You can cut that out.

Speaker A [00:52:45]:
Probably should. Yeah. So so what's the objection? What like, from an apologetic perspective, you know you're gonna get the question well, it seems like you have an awful conceited, arrogant, self centered, worship mongering God. Is the answer just yes?

Speaker C [00:53:06]:
There there's a couple of things. Like, so God loves perfectly. He is holy, perfectly. Yep. He is just perfectly. And he has done all of this perfectly. Like, there's it's it's altruistic. Like, we can't our our our finite minds just can't wrap our heads around how great and how awesome and how completely other he is.

Speaker C [00:53:42]:
And we we we dare to stand in judgment of him. My wife and I spent a lot of time landscaping getting ready for my son's wedding, and we're having a little bit of problem now with some of the flowers. And I I think I've determined that we have some slugs in the garden, and I'm going to put some stuff out to take care of the slugs. And could you imagine the nerve of those slugs to shake their fists and question me? Like

Speaker A [00:54:13]:
And you didn't even make them.

Speaker C [00:54:15]:
And I didn't even make them. Right. Yeah. And and they're gonna question my thoughts and my motives and my plan and my comings and goings, and I didn't even make them. Like, God is so far above and beyond and and outside of that that I have no right to question. But even if I want to question when I read the Bible and and and one of the things I love about and when I say love, I I kind of say it in a gentle but critical way of people who who question God Mhmm. When they read a tiny bit of God's word or they've read they've they've Googled, like, verses to make God look bad or contradictions in the Bible, and and they have, like, just enough under their belt that they think they know something about the Bible. Number 1, their minds are darkened, and they they can't see.

Speaker C [00:55:17]:
But number 2, they haven't given it an honest appraisal to think through things logically, to think through what the Bible really says as a whole collection, like as a book in its context taken for what it is in in the scope of the whole Bible. They they

Speaker A [00:55:37]:
haven't done that. Whenever an angel shows up, how how do people tend to respond?

Speaker C [00:55:42]:
In fear.

Speaker A [00:55:43]:
Yeah. Their fear, and they almost they wanna worship. And often, the angel has to go, no. No. No. Nope. That's that's that's not for me. That's for God.

Speaker A [00:55:52]:
Right. And if that's what a mere angel is like, imagine what it would be like for a human to see the glory of God even in the way that Israel did at the base of the mountain and as Moses did, and he only saw the passing train of his glory or whatever the way Moses describes it in chapter 33 and 34 of Exodus. I agree with you in a sense that they haven't done the work, but in a friendly way trying to help them do the work. I think I would say use something like that and then go, okay. So, you know, find whatever their hobby happens to be. And most people have something that they glory in. Right? And I'm stealing this directly from C. S.

Speaker A [00:56:39]:
Lewis. I'm sure he's not the first one to do it, but he shares a story of thinking about God and his his journey towards salvation and thinking about the fact that God seemed like he was an egomaniac, and then he came back from a symphony, and he was talking to somebody who had not been there and loving this process of glorifying that symphony and the musicians and how beautiful it sounded. And the glory, the process of praising the way he describes it was pleasurable for him. And there's something God has created us as human beings to glory in excellence and to enjoy legitimate glory. And so what CS Lewis ended up doing was coming to the conclusion that praiseworthy things need to be praised. There's a great joy in praising praiseworthy things. And so there's when God opens your eyes to see his glory, not only does he receive glory, but you receive joy and pleasure from glorifying in God's beauty, which is a really cool concept. And I think that's from an apologetic perspective.

Speaker A [00:57:58]:
I think that's a helpful way of trying to help people understand. Now, God may use that to open their eyes. They may not. They may never open their eyes and never understand that, and they may reject.

Speaker C [00:58:08]:
But That that is true. Why do you delight in in certain things? Why do you why do you get excited when you're, waist deep in a stream Mhmm. Reeling in a trout? Why do you get excited when you hear that sound of the pickleball bouncing off the paddle at 9 AM on a Saturday morning. Morning.

Speaker A [00:58:35]:
You know, why Or why when you turn 60, just suddenly having a yellow beaked finch in your backyard so enthralling. Have you guys not got that bug yet? No. No bird watching? No bird watching. Dave?

Speaker C [00:58:51]:
No. We haven't, Dave.

Speaker A [00:58:52]:
All of a sudden, I've, like, a

Speaker C [00:58:52]:
little bit of a

Speaker A [00:58:54]:
Billiated woodpecker. I'm getting so excited. It's like a foot tall.

Speaker C [00:58:58]:
Yeah. Well, again, Dave, you're a boomer.

Speaker A [00:59:01]:
No way.

Speaker B [00:59:02]:
Oh. Not

Speaker A [00:59:02]:
a boomer.

Speaker C [00:59:03]:
So yeah. Evidence is mounting.

Speaker B [00:59:06]:
I I do like It

Speaker A [00:59:07]:
just means I'm getting older.

Speaker B [00:59:09]:
I I do like the question you pose there because I've heard that argument before. Mhmm. I didn't quite know how to respond to it. The last time I heard it, but I think I I would really and not to get too clinical here, but I think I would really want to know what their relationship with authority is for that person because something's wrong. You know, I mean, overall, to to to have that kind of an impression of of God, really the ultimate authority Mhmm. And to anthropomorphize him with the most unhealthy of human motives. I would really wanna know what was going on there, and I think I would point them to the cross. This is God.

Speaker B [00:59:57]:
This this is God giving up everything for you. This is God giving up everything for people that really don't deserve it. Mhmm. And

Speaker A [01:00:07]:
I think I would I would

Speaker B [01:00:09]:
emphasize those qualities with that person.

Speaker A [01:00:11]:
Yeah. That's that's interesting. That's a yeah. I've I've I've only had a couple of different conversations with unbelievers who have have thought that deeply about the whole praise God thing. I mean, you even it's really funny because it's really popular right now in coaching circles, not not I'm not talking about Christian coaching circles to talk about. And even even outside of sports, but I hear a lot in sports is everybody should be involved with something bigger than themselves. Right? Have you heard that term? Oh, yes. Right? It's out it's out there, and I mostly hear coaches talk about it.

Speaker A [01:00:48]:
Being a part of a team is being a part of something bigger than yourself. And there's this in the culture, somehow, we try to deny it, but it seems to percolate out of human nature that that, that it's good to know that you're small. And it's good to know your proper place, and it's good that you actually find it even if it's just from a purely psychological perspective or a secular perspective, that there's something healthy about knowing your place in the world and that you're not number 1. And then knowing that you're not the God of the universe. You just wanna be the God of the universe. So, yeah, cool. So so can we talk if we're not ready for this, I'm fine, but can we talk about some of the practical ramifications? You know, we you already talked a little bit about it, Greg, in terms of how we read the bible. We read it from a God centered way, Christ centered way, which is to read it the way Jesus told us to read it from Luke, right, and the book of Luke.

Speaker A [01:01:52]:
But what are some other implications from this? I I think let me open up with 1. I think Schuler was right. He was wrong, but he demonstrated the importance of this point to church methodology. He basically said, that the reformers got it wrong, that they should have been more man centered in his theology. And if you look at Schuler's approach to doing church, it was completely man centered. Yeah. And he I mean, not my words. Those are his words.

Speaker A [01:02:27]:
Right? And how you do worship, and how you do outreach, and how you order a service, and how you frame a service matter. Yeah. So what are what are some let's get let's get a little granular here. Like like, let's talk about what are some of the differences between a man centered approach to say church growth versus a god centered approach. Because I think there's very, very specific things that we can see. Just teeing you up, dude. So what is what's the purpose of Sunday morning? That's that's a really good opening involved.

Speaker C [01:03:15]:
Yeah. The that's what is the purpose of Sunday morning? Outreach. The the

Speaker A [01:03:26]:
I died just a little bit inside yet. You could hear Craig doing it. Yep. But you you didn't hear me doing it, but I died just a little bit inside.

Speaker C [01:03:33]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [01:03:33]:
If we were on video, I would

Speaker A [01:03:35]:
And Craig threw up a little bit in his mouth.

Speaker C [01:03:36]:
He did.

Speaker A [01:03:37]:
And if we

Speaker B [01:03:38]:
if we were on video, I would replay it, and I could see you wince.

Speaker C [01:03:41]:
So okay. I'll give you I'll give you outreach, and I'll explain why.

Speaker A [01:03:47]:
The purpose is or that it's not outreach? Well, that

Speaker C [01:03:50]:
it can be outreach. Okay.

Speaker A [01:03:52]:
Okay. Is it primarily that?

Speaker C [01:03:55]:
The the purpose of of the gathering of the saints is the proclamation of God's word for the equipping of the saints to do the work of ministry. One of our favorite verses in this podcast, Amen. Amen. For 12. Sunday, the the gathering of the saints. And in our Western culture, the Lord's Day, Sunday morning, is is the gathering of the saints. That is, about believers getting together and, and hearing God's word preached and taught so that they may be fully equipped, to do the work of ministry. That is the primary purpose of it.

Speaker C [01:04:43]:
It is about worship as well, the body worshiping, singing to one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Now in doing that, with what I read from what from John 17 when Jesus said in verse 23, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly 1. So we are together. We are worshiping together. We are submitting ourselves to God's word. We are becoming perfectly 1 as Jesus had prayed, as God, as God has done, we are 1. Now as we are submitting, we are manifesting what is a reality. Let me continue reading.

Speaker C [01:05:40]:
So that the world may know that you sent me and love them even as you love me. So unbelievers are going to end up there. They're going to. It's going to happen.

Speaker A [01:05:55]:
Sure.

Speaker C [01:05:56]:
That happened in Paul's letters to the Corinthians. He's dealing with that. Unbelievers are going to be in your midst. So outreach is going to happen. They're going to see your oneness, and, there is an opportunity for outreach there. But that is not the primary purpose of the gathering of the saints, on the Lord's Day when you meet on Sunday morning. The primary purpose is for the instruction of the believers and for worship.

Speaker A [01:06:30]:
And so if you're God centered theology, you're gonna tend to stick with that. Correct. And if you know anything about the mainstream church growth movement, church became about outreach. Right. Now there are some, and I wanna give them credit, that did have a some sort of midweek or other weekend worship service that was meant for believers. Not all of them did it. Some did, and some completely ignored that. And I feel like I gotta give him props for that.

Speaker A [01:07:11]:
Right? Despite the fact that I well, we're seeing the fruit now. You see the fruit of the the church growth movement and the corruption that happens in all larger institutions, and it can happen in small institutions too. But when you become man centered, if salvation is the ultimate goal, then the method you use becomes the most important thing because whatever method you use might draw them to Christ. Mhmm. When God's glory is the method or when God's glory is the goal, then doing in a way that honors God becomes priority. And so there are certain things that you won't do. You won't sacrifice on your purpose. You won't sacrifice on your, you won't try to soft sell the gospel or soft pedal the gospel or use hinky, you know, really strange methodologies that try to draw people in, and and you won't be afraid to speak the truth on a Sunday morning.

Speaker A [01:08:12]:
Right. Whereas if you are man centered in your theology, you're gonna say, well, we don't talk about those things on Sunday mornings. Right.

Speaker C [01:08:20]:
Mhmm. Because if you're if you're man centered and your goal becomes outreach, then your methods are going to revolve around that. So you have to do things to get people in the door. Yep. And then what you catch them with, you have to keep them with. So what you use to bring them in the door, you need to keep doing those things to keep them in the door. Because when you stop doing those things, they're gonna be like, well, this isn't interesting to me anymore. Right.

Speaker C [01:08:55]:
This isn't enticing to me anymore. If they came in the door and they saw the unity and they saw God's glory on display and they were changed by the spirit of God moving and convicting them of sin, and God changed their heart, and God saved them. God did all the work. Mhmm. Yeah. God gets all the glory. Guess who's got to keep them? Yeah. Not me.

Speaker C [01:09:28]:
Not

Speaker A [01:09:28]:
you. God. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen out of me.

Speaker C [01:09:35]:
I got a good stuff and an amen. Dude, Dave's turning Pentecostal.

Speaker A [01:09:40]:
Did you say Pentecostal? I'll clean that up and post for you. But I'm Pentecostal today, just today.

Speaker C [01:09:50]:
He's a pantyhose Pentecostal.

Speaker A [01:09:54]:
I was for the record, I was never a pantyhose Pentecostal or a pantyhose Baptist. That would be clothing pertaining to a woman, and don't wear those things. Shouldn't wear those things. Well, I think we've we've hit all 5 of the solas. Now we need the 6th episode on the 5 solas.

Speaker B [01:10:21]:
Yes. There will be a 6th episode on the 5 solas, And

Speaker A [01:10:24]:
Should we give them give them the Latin word? Yeah. A phrase? No word. It's 2 words.

Speaker B [01:10:28]:
AdSense? Mhmm. No. That's the goop.

Speaker C [01:10:30]:
We're gonna add fonts. Add fonts. Fondant? Fun no. That goes on a cake. Fondue? Ad Fontes. No. That's the cheese dip.

Speaker A [01:10:38]:
Okay. Ad Fontes in Latin, which means, I know you know this, to the sources. Back to the sources. Back to the sources. Yeah. Back it was like, I added that from back to the future, but it's, yeah, to the sources.

Speaker C [01:10:53]:
To the sources. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. You don't wanna catch that one.

Speaker A [01:10:58]:
So stay tuned. You're curious.

Speaker B [01:11:00]:
Yeah. Stay tuned. Okay. So as we wrap up the 6 part series on the 5 solas, if we if you have any commentary, if you want to hear anything, if you think we missed something, please let us know. The fish at catfishministries.com, the fish at catfishministries.com, or if you just wanna give us some encouragement, we always like that too. Anything else, gentlemen?

Speaker A [01:11:31]:
Solely day of Gloria. Solely day of Gloria.

Speaker C [01:11:35]:
Cirque du Soleil.

Speaker A [01:11:41]:
Nice. Scored Jesus points, and you didn't. Get catfish, everyone. Oh, yeah. Alright. Cirque this away. Thanks for joining us at Catfish Ministries.

Speaker B [01:12:09]:
We hope you learned something

Speaker A [01:12:10]:
with us and maybe had a laugh or 2 while you're at it.

Speaker B [01:12:13]:
Please subscribe and leave

Speaker A [01:12:14]:
a 5 star review. If you really like what you heard and wanna help us make more of these, look us up on buy me a coffee dot com. We can't wait to talk to you again next time. This is Chad for Greg and Dave signing off and saying remember America, it's always a great day to get catfished.